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Out of the Three Apprentices Sidious had, which one do you think was the most powerful in terms of Lightsaber combat and Force?

Tyranus puts them all to shame.

but lil' ani beat him!

i say vader!!! it's just that he never gets a chance to shine like dooku does!

damn sorry bout the double post

Vader, he chose him for a reason. You probably made this thread just because you wanted to tell us that Dooku would beat Vader.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader, he chose him for a reason. You probably made this thread just because you wanted to tell us that Dooku would beat Vader.

Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

Well for one thing Dooku can beat Vader, hell even Maul can beat Vader.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
but lil' ani beat him!

Dooku saved the little Brats life. Dooku lopped his arm off. If Anakin didn't have that artificial arm, he wouldn't have been able to drag his Torso up the Molten hill. Plus, there was circumstance to Dooku's loss.

Originally posted by The Creator
Well for one thing Dooku can beat Vader, hell even Maul can beat Vader.


..... HAHAHA...Maul not only in the same leauge as Vader but beating him... you are so cute when you are blissfully unaware and stubborn...HAHAHAHA...Maul...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
..... HAHAHA...Maul not only in the same leauge as Vader but beating him... you are so cute when you are blissfully unaware and stubborn...HAHAHAHA...Maul...
It's a high possibility. Maul was agile and acrobatic. Vader kind of had two swings: Left hip turn and Right hip turn swing.

...Wow, are you kidding me?

i meant ROTS Darth Vader! he had some moves then! maybe if they gave dooku cyber hands and head he wouldn't be so smart.

All three were good. But Count Dooku has the lightsaber mastery down-pat, and the Force powers to boot. Dooku was highly skilled and very experienced in the ways of the Force. Maul was quicker and more agile, and definately more ferocious - but he was reckless.

Dooku owns this.

Had Vader not got the suit, then he'd rip the old Count and Dagger-head apart.

Count Dooku ownz j00, though.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
...Wow, are you kidding me?


Actually, I'm dead serious.

I'll say it despite you guys not wanting to hear it and the fact that I will get bashed.... dated graphics. In the PT you had Dooku (who was a lot older than A New Hope Obi Wan) jumping around all "willy-nilly" while Obi Wan and Vader were kind of glued to the floor. The graphics now allow for a lot more to be done with saber fights (Otherwise the PT would suckamoondo).

Can you repeat that in the English Language please?

Tyranus has this.

Originally posted by The Creator
Well for one thing Dooku can beat Vader, hell even Maul can beat Vader.

yeah, vader as we know him in the life support suit after his legs were cut off by obi wan and he was made into basically a robot...but vader, after they killed mace windu until when he fought obi wan when he was still human, he pwns all of maul and dooku with ease....why do u think he was the final apprentice for sidious..?? because he was much more powerful, sidious even said in the movie ROTS that he would have an apprentice much more powerful than count dooku, vader!! sheesh dont yall pay attention

No, he said that Anakin would eventually become more powerful than Yoda or Sidious. If he were actually that powerful he would have destroyed Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Dooku saved the little Brats life. Dooku lopped his arm off. If Anakin didn't have that artificial arm, he wouldn't have been able to drag his Torso up the Molten hill. Plus, there was circumstance to Dooku's loss.


Hey! You got that from me!

and he did become more powerful than both of them, with his position as the emperor's apprentice in which the ruled the whole galaxy lol yea, thats power man i would have to say if hsom1 ruled a whole galaxy which has billions of stars, yea i would call that power at its absolute peak...and besides, that was a cheap shot obi wan had on vader, i mean he was jumping up to get on land and off balance not even ready to fight, and obi wan cuts his legs off and leaves him to die..?? lmao, no...not really, he just got picked up and put into a life support suit & became the leader of an entire galaxy

Could you repeat that in english?

Originally posted by Dark Envy
Hey! You got that from me!

what circumstance??? r u kidding me, anakin beat him fair n square

No, Dooku threw that duel.

ok, darth vader is much more powerful than darth maul and darth tyranus because he had more potential in strength in the force genetically, but was put at a disadvantage when obi wan cut his legs him when he least expected it, but at the same time, he became the ruler of an entire galaxy, so thus, he's way more powerful than dooku and maul could ever dream to be, regardless of the outcomes of a lightsaber battle, and could even take them down when he was fully human...understand

Originally posted by The Creator
No, Dooku threw that duel.

y

speechless

What the f*ck are you talking about? I didn't pick up shit from you.

I dont think Tyrannus counts as an apprentice exactly

Wht not?

when did sidiouse ever see him much less train him, no no see tyrannus was always training someone ever since he was a sith
he also never had time to spare with sidiouse except at the end of AOTC and thats it

KMC has already decided maul could beat vader, not ROTS vader (before suit) but the suited vader, and also sidiouse doesnt count as an apprentice, that is mainly because he hardly spent half a minute talking to sids

No, you've decided that Maul would defeat Vader.

And the Count is an apprentice. Stop complicating things.

. . . he met with his master -- Databank

Now, if Sidious is referenced as 'his master', what would that make Dooku?

well i didnt decide i read one of the vs forum threads
im not saying mauls the best im saying without dooku he is
(ESB Vader thread)

What a surprise, DarthMaul9123 shoving "Maul could beat Vader" down our throats...

all right ill quote it for you

Originally posted by JenR1215
Maul would had KICKED THE S*** out of Vader. Bcuz at least Maul was made a Master (in time) instead of rushing.

Vader would only win b/c he would probably pulled his famouse "GRIP" and choked the crap out of him... like he does everyone eles.

Darth Maul is more evil than Vader b/c.. oh excuse me "LORD" Vader, b/c all Vader has is kick-ass helmate.. and HEIGHT.. damn he was TALL.

And Maul has the Devilish horns and acrobatic moves... I love a man with horns

Originally posted by Izmo
dont worry i have reasons. and i believe that maul is stronger in the force. first: he has mastered the double bladed lightsaber which requires huge amount of concentration to control. second: he fought against two jedi knights (i say 2 knights because obi wan becomes a knight right afterwords so lets just call him a knight), killed one of them and the only reason he didnt kill kenobi was because he got cocky, he thought he had kenobi rapped around his finger. that is a flaw in the darkside that u see in all sith but palpatine(and i am sure if i looked hard i could find some cockyness). so that makes him strong in the force. third. people say that when he throws that object in phantom menace, that that is the extent of his power. WRONG! if u read the book on maul, u see that he has all the force powers of any other sith(except for lightning and choke, but i am sure he can do lightning, and choke is just force grab in a certain place). he is a cruel, stealthy, efficiant hunter. also he is totaly devoted to his master so he will fight to the dealth to complete his orders. vader however, is nowhere near as nimble, he may be a good swordsman, but he is still hindered by his suit. and if u bring up the fact that he fought luke in ESB, well yes, but in ROTJ luke (who has had ony partial training, and none, that we have seen, has been lightsaber oriented(except for on the falcon in ANH, but that was more an exersize in how to use the force) totally owns vader, and it is there we see how clumsy that suit makes him. there is actually a comic with a fight between vader and maul, i actually found this board when i was looking for it, i found out about it in this months starwars magazine. and in that comic vader wins. BUT, onlybecause maul got cocky. maul has laid the smack down on vader. vader is on his knees, and as maul is about to deal the killer blow, vader ignites his lightsaber, impaling himself(the machine part) but more mportantly scewering maul as well(again maul was being cocky and feeling in control when really he was not) so i guess in saying that i have weakened my own argument. but i think it brings up a good point: vader would not win because of his force, or his lightsaber skill. he would win because maul gets cocky. oh, and dnt lay that "the chosen one" crud on me.

If they remade the OT, the saber fights and graphics would be so much better.
Hell, they may even fix Obi having just a toy glowing saber.

Dooku fanboys post here..............

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
all right ill quote it for you

. . .

You're using the opinions of two inarticulate members to try and sway me? Ha! Prove up, please, and not with the kind of garbage evidence you've presented thus far.

Hmm. Well, after getting injured and having to wear the suit Vader goes down to weakest. But before he got injured he's beat Maul. Both are physically the strongest and full of somehwhat uncontrollable rage and lose duels due to overconfidance. But Vader's stronger, he may even have more rage. Maul's good with a blade, maybe even as good but I don't think so. And Vader did well against ROTS Obi-Wan, who Maul'd have little chance against.


But then they're's Tyranus. Well, he beat Kenobi, even in ROTS. Kenobi beat Vader. That doesn't necessailry mean Tyranus'd beat Vader, though. And Mustafar seems the perfect place for a Sorasu Master to win.

But, although physically Vader may be stronger than Tyranus and is at least even with blade work Vader just simply isn't as experienced or strong as far as Force powers go. So Tyranus wins this.

Yeah, really (agreeing with Fanus). Darth Maul, all you showed me is that you are getting your information from someone who can't spell "wrapped" (rapped, heh).

Yay for the Vader fans teaming up with the Dooku fans to verbally (well, with a keyboard, that is) beat the crap outta Maul fanboys.

Hey, Maul would beat OT Vader, so suck it.

I disagree, and that last comment wasn't directed at you. So, no mouth suction for you, sir.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
What a surprise, DarthMaul9123 shoving "Maul could beat Vader" down our throats...

i know, almost annoys me as much when wolverine888 says that wolverine can beat anyone, no matter who it is

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hey, Maul would beat OT Vader, so suck it.

all vader would have to do is force choke him and crush his windpipe and hes down

Look, Count Dooku owns and all . . . but I'm going to have to ask Sorgo why in the hell he made this thread. It is obvious to those of us with a logical, rational mindset that Dooku is the most powerful of the Emperor's apprentices. So, why make this thread, if not to go on a Pro-Dooku campaign? Maybe he had a reason . . . but I'm not seeing it.

and y is dooku the most powerful after typing all that w/ no reason to back it up, regarding the fact that anakin has the most genetic potential in the ways of the force, became ruler of the galaxy, and even killed dooku himself!

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hey, Maul would beat OT Vader, so suck it. OT Vader could lift people up with one arm. He beat Lukes lightsaber away with ease although Luke too practised Shienn.
Vader would either beat Maul's lightsaber swings away and kill him or he would crush Maul in a saber lockdown.

But wait! Maul is so fast! That means he wins by default! Oh, silly me..

Originally posted by braz
and y is dooku the most powerful after typing all that w/ no reason to back it up, regarding the fact that anakin has the most genetic potential in the ways of the force, became ruler of the galaxy, and even killed dooku himself!

Dooku threw the fight, get over it.

Oh and genetic potential = jack all. He had the potential to become one of the, if not the most powerful being in the history of the galaxy.

That was before he got "Mustafared" by Kenobi.

Originally posted by braz
and y is dooku the most powerful after typing all that w/ no reason to back it up, regarding the fact that anakin has the most genetic potential in the ways of the force, became ruler of the galaxy, and even killed dooku himself!

1. Count Dooku initially threw the fight, but had to ramp it up a little, seeing that Anakin was too relenting. By that time, of course, Anakin got into full aggression-mode, and outmaneuvered the Count. Yes, he won that battle. I do not dispute it. But I don't think all was as it seemed.

2. Anakin had the most potential. If he had reached it, he would have been able to squash Sidious, Yoda, and Dooku like bugs. But at the time, he was weaker than all three. Sidious looked to the future, but he didn't take into account what would've happened should Anakin be compromised before he reached his potential.

3. Sidious was the ruler of the galaxy. Vader sat at his right hand. Vader, like all the others before him, was Sidious's toy. Vader didn't rule the galaxy. At all.

Dooku threw the fight??????


Lord Sidious: we must convert Skywalker to the dark side of the force!

Dooku: Yes, my master

Lord Sidious: he can kill you then his journey towards the darkside will bhe complete!

Dooku: ok then!

Originally posted by braz
all vader would have to do is force choke him and crush his windpipe and hes down

I dont think Maul would just stand there and let himslef get choked, homes. That's like saying Maul would just need throw an object at vader's chest panel and he's dead. They would be scrapping and the one who found the opening and executed the right move would win, ese.

Oh, man! If Sidious would have just kept Maul as pet until the OT and let Dooku have killed Qui-Gon then Sidious and Maul would have ruled the universe for forever!
But wait! It gets better! Maul would have grown more powerful and outlearn the master and it would be Darth Maul as the emperor!

You hear that darthsith19?
Maul could have been the ruler of the universe!!

Originally posted by braz
all vader would have to do is force choke him and crush his windpipe and hes down
Actually, if you'd have read up on Maul in E.U., he can use Force Choke as well. Also, Vader lost to Lkuke. Maul'd destroy Luke. Third, Vader'd be owned should he try and go up against Obi and Qui-Gon at the same time. Nuff said.

Suit-Vader would be owned by the following:

*ahem* *clears throat* EVERY PT FORCE-USER WITH THE EXCPETION OF THE YOUNGLINGS.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Actually, if you'd have read up on Maul in E.U., he can use Force Choke as well. Also, Vader lost to Lkuke. Maul'd destroy Luke. Third, Vader'd be owned should he try and go up against Obi and Qui-Gon at the same time. Nuff said.

I take it you haven't read Dark Lord.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Suit-Vader would be owned by the following:

*ahem* *clears throat* EVERY PT FORCE-USER WITH THE EXCPETION OF THE YOUNGLINGS. Yeah, even Vader twenty years ago could beat him.. Although he had perfected his skills and instead of being an apprentice become a master. All on the sole argument that the ANH battle sucked.

Yeah, the logic is just sparking off of this general opinion.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I dont think Maul would just stand there and let himslef get choked, homes. That's like saying Maul would just need throw an object at vader's chest panel and he's dead. They would be scrapping and the one who found the opening and executed the right move would win, ese.

wtf lol how can u throw something when ur being killed??, he lifts u up in the air, collapses your windpipe and u die, simple as that..there would be no scrapping whatsoever, but like w/e his face said, maul can do forcechoke too which i wasnt sure of if he could cuz i never saw him do it in TPM, but he did on the Tony Hawks Proskater 3 video game when darth maul was the bonus character

Originally posted by Escape81
1. Count Dooku initially threw the fight, but had to ramp it up a little, seeing that Anakin was too relenting. By that time, of course, Anakin got into full aggression-mode, and outmaneuvered the Count. Yes, he won that battle. I do not dispute it. But I don't think all was as it seemed.

2. Anakin had the most potential. If he had reached it, he would have been able to squash Sidious, Yoda, and Dooku like bugs. But at the time, he was weaker than all three. Sidious looked to the future, but he didn't take into account what would've happened should Anakin be compromised before he reached his potential.

3. Sidious was the ruler of the galaxy. Vader sat at his right hand. Vader, like all the others before him, was Sidious's toy. Vader didn't rule the galaxy. At all.
coulda, woulda shoulda, DIDNT! dooku lost the fight...n plus y would he throw the fight on purpose knowing hes gunna die, i know i aint goin out like that just because of what some stupid sith lord named darth sidious thinks
and plus, u even admitted it, anakin had the potential or the ability to get more stronger than even sidious and yoda, so that just shows IMO that he has more power whether he reaches that point or not.....and, i thought they both ruled the galaxy

The way you type oozes with n00b, sorry.

yes once you've bin a member of kmc for 3 months THEN u can write like a ..um...eh....non-noob!!!

thats a point! what do all you idiots who call everone "noob" call yourselves?? veterans???i mean fair enough if you registered in 2000 but most u fools haven't bin here half a year!!!!
by the way i'm a "Newb" 2

Noob -- fool, inarticulate, simply an idiot
Newb -- someone who's been here a relatively short time

i've just elevated myself out of "sad loser" class into "loser" class


they should have a "terminology" page here at kmc

Ok... by the way I have been here for three months...so I guess that gives me the oh so mighty right to claim you a n00b? This is freakin retarded.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I take it you haven't read Dark Lord.
No. But there's NO way Vader when he first gopt the suit could beat Maul anyways cause he'd be 1/2 the strength he was in ROTS before the suit. That means below AOTC Anakin.

dude, having mechanical limbs gave him abnormal almost superhuman-like strength, it didnt make him weaker lol

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
yes once you've bin a member of kmc for 3 months THEN u can write like a ..um...eh....non-noob!!!

Try a year.

NO NO NO u miss my...nevermind!

i was trying to be funny, as usual didn't work!

Originally posted by Tangible God
Suit-Vader would be owned by the following:

*ahem* *clears throat* EVERY PT FORCE-USER WITH THE EXCPETION OF THE YOUNGLINGS.

Thats why in Dark Lord he killed a Jedi Knight who sneaked attacked him before he had gotten used to the suit or had much/ any training from Palpatine, right?

Originally posted by braz
coulda, woulda shoulda, DIDNT! dooku lost the fight...n plus y would he throw the fight on purpose knowing hes gunna die, i know i aint goin out like that just because of what some stupid sith lord named darth sidious thinks
and plus, u even admitted it, anakin had the potential or the ability to get more stronger than even sidious and yoda, so that just shows IMO that he has more power whether he reaches that point or not.....and, i thought they both ruled the galaxy

1. Dooku obeys Sidious. When are you all going to learn that, especially in terms of the Sith, when you are one's master, it does not mean that you consider your apprentices equals or friends. Sidious never considered Dooku, Maul, Vader, or Grievous as equals. They were allies, but they were expendable. Dooku would do it because he has been conditioned to obey his master.

2. Anakin never reached his potential. Secondly, Braz, I might have the potential to become a better martial arts user than Jackie Chan. But until I reach that point, he'd kick my ass. Point being that potential means crap for current power. You need to reach it before claiming the status of superiority.

So Vader just reached 80% of Sidious potential. Big deal.
He still has practiced his skills for 20 years under Sidious and perfected his style.
He did become a master and I don't see him still as an apprentice beating himself as swordsmaster. This rediculous statement is always returning on these forums. I think it was clear that Lucas portrayed him as though on the level Mace Windu but no, then the Luke factor everybody dispises would make less sense.

Originally posted by overlord
So Vader just reached 80% of Sidious potential. Big deal.
He still has practiced his skills for 20 years under Sidious and perfected his style.
He did become a master and I don't see him still as an apprentice beating himself as swordsmaster. This rediculous statement is always returning on these forums. I think it was clear that Lucas portrayed him as though on the level Mace Windu but no, then the Luke factor everybody dispises would make less sense.

Vader's not as weak as everyone claims, I'll give 'em that.

Originally posted by braz
dude, having mechanical limbs gave him abnormal almost superhuman-like strength, it didnt make him weaker lol
Like hell it didn't. He lost 1/2 his power. Lucas has said this. And poor you have been thinking for all these years that ROTJ Luke is stronger than ROTS Vader

DS, how would he have been thinking "for all these years" that Luke is better than ROTS Vader if it hasn't been out that long. (BTW, ROTJ Luke would probably take Anakin).

Dooku is maybe a little bit better than Vader, then Maul a pretty far way down.

*puts on flame suit*

Grant it Vader lost some agility in the suit, but 80% of Palpy is still , (just in my opinion) better than Maul or Dooku. The old trilogy saber fights arent as bad as theyre made out to be, though they are slow. And if lucas had the aptitude,and choreographers then as he does know , vader and lukes fights would be ferocious. And this next point is old I know, but GG was robotic and he didnt have a problem with agility, personally, I think Lucas has said all these things to compensate for the differences between the Old trilogy and the new prequels.
But this is just one mans opinion

I for the most part agree with you.

Thanks

Originally posted by Sorgo
Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

no i thought it was :

if you assume, you make an ass out of u and me

vader had the most potential and could have left them all in his wake, but after mustafa he can never be even half what he could have. dooku takes this, maul is a perfectly trained beast, but dooku has more power after his years with the jedi and hes one of the best duelist around.

Powerful argument, but I still think the odds will remain in vaders favor. Its like I stated the original trilogy was made in the late 70's and through the 80's, back then the saber duels and force powers were adequate entertainment, but now I think lucas is being more creative and we never got to see many force abilities or high-speed duels .

vader is supposedly 80% of palpatine in the original trilogy, without having that king of comparison for dooku or maul its hard to say. palpatine took 4 jedi masters at once and maul was having difficulty with a master and a padawan, dooku easily took out a knight and a padawan.

it is difficult to say because we havent really seen any really impressive displays of power by a suited vader. he proved to be adept with the force by throwing objects at luke in esb, but so did dooku in aotc, although dookus was far more impressive.

i will still go with dooku, his experience and skill make him one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, jedi or sith. vader cant use force lightning, or deflect it without is saber and i dont think hes powerful enough to make up for this when dooku is at the very least, almost a match for him.

IF vader had , well you know, like...hands, he'd be able to use force lightning....*sarcasm intended* You'd think if he could absorb laser bolts with his hands he'd be able to do the same with lightning so long as he could use the force to prevent it form arcing into the rest of his suit.

*double post apologies*

We dont really know what vader can and cannot do. Theres always that stupid theory that palpatine held vaders life in his hands. i.e. the suit and ofcourse he couldnt block palpys lightning, he was bench pressing him after all.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Like hell it didn't. He lost 1/2 his power. Lucas has said this. And poor you have been thinking for all these years that ROTJ Luke is stronger than ROTS Vader He lost potential. Get it through your head. I can't picture Anakin being able to pick up somebody with one hand when you say power.
I don't mean to sound like some retard Vader fanboy but it is annoying that people think any PT guy can take him. It ruines the OT thought and I strongly dissagree that Lucas ever meant it this way.

It is sane logic to state that Vader would have been weaker after he was defeated at Mustafar but to say that after twenty years of and finishing his training under Sidious and perfecting his lightsaber technique he would still be defeated by himself as jedi knight? That's plain illogical.

Just accept that Maul couldn't take his place in the OT.

Originally posted by overlord
He lost potential. Get it through your head. I can't picture Anakin being able to pick up somebody with one hand when you say power.
I don't mean to sound like some retard Vader fanboy but it is annoying that people think any PT guy can take him. It ruines the OT thought and I strongly dissagree that Lucas ever meant it this way.

It is sane logic to state that Vader would have been weaker after he was defeated at Mustafar but to say that after twenty years of and finishing his training under Sidious and perfecting his lightsaber technique he would still be defeated by himself as jedi knight? That's plain illogical.

Just accept that Maul couldn't take his place in the OT.

thanku!! someone finally....with logic

Originally posted by Decay
vader is supposedly 80% of palpatine in the original trilogy, without having that king of comparison for dooku or maul its hard to say. palpatine took 4 jedi masters at once and maul was having difficulty with a master and a padawan, dooku easily took out a knight and a padawan.

80% of ROTS Sidious would put Vader below Dooku, but remember that this is Palpatine with an extra 20 years to sort through all of the knowledge the Jedi had and the knowledge he already had. Sidious could be twice as powerful by this time. Point is we don't know, but it definately should be more than 80% of ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by Decay
i will still go with dooku, his experience and skill make him one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, jedi or sith. vader cant use force lightning, or deflect it without is saber and i dont think hes powerful enough to make up for this when dooku is at the very least, almost a match for him.

When is Vader not going to have his saber? And what makes you think he can't block lightning with his hands? He was able to use the force very well through his arm stub in CW.

Suited Vader is alot more powerful than many people believe, heres proof in the ROTS novelization:

His promising new apprentice, who was to be the greatest Sith who'd ever lived - maimed and burned, perhaps dead. Darth Sidious ground his teeth in frustrated anger. Part of him wanted to turn on his heel and leave what was left of Darth Vader to burn to ashes in the rising lava. Even if he was alive, even if he could be saved, Vader would be crippled.


And not just with his mechanical limbs. The force - dark side as well as light - was generated by living beings, and it took living flesh to manipulate it. Darth Vader would never be able to cast blue force lightning; that required living hands, not metal ones. And with so much of his body replaced by machinery, he would never come close to the potential he'd had.

It was a great pitty, Darth Sidious thought, controlling his anger, but perhaps not irreparable. Even dimininished, Darth Vader would still be very strong



So you see as Darth243 said, the OT was made about 30 years ago, and they did not have the technology that they have now, so technically the OT force users such as Vader and Luke are very strong, Palpatine and Vader themselves complimented Luke and said that he was very powerful, and they both knew and faught against some of the strongest PT jedi. If they remade the OT with the new digital effects and such, the OT battles would be just as good as the PT ones, probably even better since they would have even newer technology on their hands if they were to remake the movies in 2006 or later. Luke was able to resist the dark side much better than anakin even with less training, and he was exceptionally powerful when he yelled NEVER! and went ballistic on vader, luke was incredibly strong in spite of the lack of much formal training.

Just to let you know, the ROTS book is uncanon.

That may be but the fact remains about my other points, i strongly believe that Vader and Luke are underrated in Episode 6, they are both very strong at that point, Luke even more so especially in his Ballistic mode, and vader was able to carry palpy all the way to the core and and throw him in, while Sids was zapping vader with a high dosage of force lightning, an ordinary jedi or sith would not be able to just keep walking like nothing happened. I believe he might have used a tech similar to Dark Rage to increase his endurance and power temporarily. Many of you do admit that palpy is possibly even stronger than he was in ROTS so this is an incredible feat to say the least

Originally posted by darthsith19
No. But there's NO way Vader when he first gopt the suit could beat Maul anyways cause he'd be 1/2 the strength he was in ROTS before the suit. That means below AOTC Anakin.

It's half the potential, darthsith. Anakin, as of ROTS, wasn't even close to reaching his potential. Stop being thick.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
DS, how would he have been thinking "for all these years" that Luke is better than ROTS Vader if it hasn't been out that long. (BTW, ROTJ Luke would probably take Anakin).

Glentract, don't even go there. No farmboy is going to take out a Jedi Knight with a dozen times the experience, more potential, and three years as frontline combatant.

Dooku is maybe a little bit better than Vader, then Maul a pretty far way down.

Dooku is superior to Vader, but Maul isn't that far behind. He's vastly overestimated by some, and ridiculously downgraded by others. . .

Vader was the best Apprentice, Sidious himself said "soon i will have a new apprentice who is far younger and more powerful!" Sidious chose vader instead of dooku, sidious is the smartest star wars character, surely he knew what he was doing

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
Vader was the best Apprentice, Sidious himself said "soon i will have a new apprentice who is far younger and more powerful!" Sidious chose vader instead of dooku, sidious is the smartest star wars character, surely he knew what he was doing

He said that before Mustafar.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Dooku is superior to Vader, but Maul isn't that far behind. He's vastly overestimated by some, and ridiculously downgraded by others. . .

Can you prove that Dooku is better? GL specifically said Vader 80% of Sidious, which is ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious. That puts Vader somewhere above 80% of Dooku.

If pre-suit Vader's powers were far superior to his earlier, Good-guy counter-part (ROTS Anakin), and Anakin could easily HOLD HIS OWN (not defeat, i.e. Dooku's supposed dive) against Dooku, then doesn't that make pre-suit Vader better than Dooku.

But Suit Vader's vastly inferior to Dooku, Maul too.

And Maul would definetely lose to both Dooku and P-S Vader.

Meh.. Maul would even lose to Kit Fisto probably.
In the way I percieve SW, I think it's logical to assume that Vader and Dooku are both masters over their way of duelling and fair equals. The thing that bothers is just that Anakin while still not a full fledged master at duelling could surprise Dooku like he did..

Originally posted by Tangible God
If pre-suit Vader's powers were far superior to his earlier, Good-guy counter-part (ROTS Anakin), and Anakin could easily HOLD HIS OWN (not defeat, i.e. Dooku's supposed dive) against Dooku, then doesn't that make pre-suit Vader better than Dooku.

But Suit Vader's vastly inferior to Dooku, Maul too.

And Maul would definetely lose to both Dooku and P-S Vader.

I agree with the first half of what your saying but like darth glentract said, rotj vader is 80% of Rotj palpy, meaning that rotj vader is perhaps 90% or higher than rots palpy, so dooku and maul is not necessarily superior. Vader is not as slow as you think, its just looks that way because technology wasnt nearly was as good back in the 70's ok. Vader fights fast enough, you need to look beyond the limits of technology in the OT.

look at grievous he is a robot too and yet he could move his lightsabers pretty damn fast. according to rots. robot or not vader is not a complete weakling. ok? thank you

I've said many times before, and that is the sad thing between the O and PT.

The technology to give Vader uber saber-moves, in contrast to the timeline anyway, was not available when the OT was made.

In my opinion, Suit-Vader SHOULD totally kick ass, even comapred to ROTS Vader.

But alas, since the tech. was not available, and the prequel storyline had not been realised...

And anyway, since the movies are the ultimate canon, and we have to go by what we see, then Suit-Vader just plain sucked.

ANH Obi-wan was supposed to be the strongest jedi during ANH and he lost to Vader, think about this. Obi-Wan is even stronger than he was in rots and he couldnt beat vader. So vader obv did not suck if he did he would be pwned by obi. and he wasnt pwned. in fact vader said that obi was weak. so vader must of had considerable strength. and Luke is even stronger than either of them, i am sure obi-wan would let himself get killed if he didnt believe that luke was stronger than himself, yoda, and darth, and the emperor. So Luke Rocks!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Can you prove that Dooku is better? GL specifically said Vader 80% of Sidious, which is ROTJ Sidious, who is better than ROTS Sidious. That puts Vader somewhere above 80% of Dooku.

For starters, try reading your own post.

Secondly, while Sidious may have become more knowledgeable and skillful in the arts of the Force, but he certainly didn't gain raw power. His Force mastery increased, not his base power or maximum potential.

And lastly, Lucas said that Vader, after his crippling accident, would possess up to 80% of Sidious's maximum potential. Please explain to me your interpretation of the quote, which would be 'Vader is 80% of Sidious'. How does that even make sense?

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
ANH Obi-wan was supposed to be the strongest jedi during ANH and he lost to Vader, think about this. Obi-Wan is even stronger than he was in rots and he couldnt beat vader. So vader obv did not suck if he did he would be pwned by obi. and he wasnt pwned. in fact vader said that obi was weak. so vader must of had considerable strength. and Luke is even stronger than either of them, i am sure obi-wan would let himself get killed if he didnt believe that luke was stronger than himself, yoda, and darth, and the emperor. So Luke Rocks!

Oh, use some common sense, please. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to Vader so that Luke would escape. If he hadn't, the only two beings who had a chance of stopping the Emperor and Vader would have been killed. The last hopes for the galaxy would have been destroyed.

And are you really going to Vader's opinion on Obi-Wan? One would think that he'd be slightly peeved at the Jedi for, oh, severing three limbs, having burn almost to death, and leaving trapped in a claustrophobic tank of a life-support system.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
DS, how would he have been thinking "for all these years" that Luke is better than ROTS Vader if it hasn't been out that long. (BTW, ROTJ Luke would probably take Anakin).

Dooku is maybe a little bit better than Vader, then Maul a pretty far way down.
Okay, a whie anyways. As for Luke beating Anakin...


Yes. So if he were at 50% of his full potential before he got injured then he's be at 50% of his full potential after getting injured which would be 1/4 of his original full potential. That's under AOTC Anakin. Maul'd beat him. Maybe, maybe by the OT Vader's gotten strong enough again that he could beat Maul. Maybe but I don't think so.

What are you. . . ? *sigh*

It's really not that complicated. Before his 'accident', Anakin at full potential would have had, for simplicity's sake, 160% of Sidious's potential. After the 'accident', his maximum potential was cut in half. Meaning that his new maximum was 80% of Sidious's potential. So, by ROTJ, Vader has presumably reached his new maximum potential. He possesses the equivalent 80% of Sidious's raw power.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
What are you. . . ? *sigh*

It's really not that complicated. Before his 'accident', Anakin at full potential would have had, for simplicity's sake, 160% of Sidious's potential. After the 'accident', his maximum potential was cut in half. Meaning that his new maximum was 80% of Sidious's potential. So, by ROTJ, Vader has presumably reached his new maximum potential. He possesses the equivalent 80% of Sidious's raw power.

What are you. . . ? *sigh*

It's really not that complicated. Before his 'accident', Anakin at full potential would have had, for simplicity's sake, 200% of Sidious's potential. After the 'accident', his maximum potential was cut in half. Meaning that his new maximum was 100% of Sidious's potential. So, by ROTJ, Vader has presumably reached 80% of his new maximum potential. He possesses the equivalent 80% of Sidious's raw power in ROTJ.


If your going to give me information at least give me valid info.

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
I agree with the first half of what your saying but like darth glentract said, rotj vader is 80% of Rotj palpy, meaning that rotj vader is perhaps 90% or higher than rots palpy, so dooku and maul is not necessarily superior. Vader is not as slow as you think, its just looks that way because technology wasnt nearly was as good back in the 70's ok. Vader fights fast enough, you need to look beyond the limits of technology in the OT.

look at grievous he is a robot too and yet he could move his lightsabers pretty damn fast. according to rots. robot or not vader is not a complete weakling. ok? thank you

yup...

Originally posted by Tangible God
I've said many times before, and that is the sad thing between the O and PT.

The technology to give Vader uber saber-moves, in contrast to the timeline anyway, was not available when the OT was made.

In my opinion, Suit-Vader SHOULD totally kick ass, even comapred to ROTS Vader.

But alas, since the tech. was not available, and the prequel storyline had not been realised...

And anyway, since the movies are the ultimate canon, and we have to go by what we see, then Suit-Vader just plain sucked.

couldnt have said it better

i got one question though, does darth maul have force choke like dooku and vader?

Originally posted by darthsith19

If your going to give me information at least give me valid info.

If you want to get technical about GL's quote, it stated that half of Anakin's maximum potential was the 80% figure. What's 80 x 2? Thought so.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
If you want to get technical about GL's quote, it stated that half of Anakin's maximum potential was the 80% figure. What's 80 x 2? Thought so.
No. It says his full potential is twice that of Sidious's and that in the OT he's 80% as strong as Sidious.

the episode 3 visual dictionary said vader cant use or deflect force lightning as a result of having prosthetic limbs. i thought vader being 80% of sidious meant that when rotj came around sidious had pretty much peaked in terms of power and vader had achieved about all he could with his suit, and he was 80% of sidious. thats never started but id always thought that was the meaning. vader isnt likley to be without his saber often, but he would be relying on it as his sole defence, and he threw it at luke in rotj so he was without it briefly.

i always thought lucas ment that vader would have been twice as powerful as sidious without the suit, not twice as powerful as he is with it.

Originally posted by Decay
the episode 3 visual dictionary said vader cant use or deflect force lightning as a result of having prosthetic limbs. i thought vader being 80% of sidious meant that when rotj came around sidious had pretty much peaked in terms of power and vader had achieved about all he could with his suit, and he was 80% of sidious. thats never started but id always thought that was the meaning. vader isnt likley to be without his saber often, but he would be relying on it as his sole defence, and he threw it at luke in rotj so he was without it briefly.

i always thought lucas ment that vader would have been twice as powerful as sidious without the suit, not twice as powerful as he is with it.
He does mean twice as powerful without it. Only as powerful with it. Only reached 80% of his/Sidious full potential with the suit on. Get it?
Before injuries = Could be 200% of Sidious
After sustaining suit = Could be as powerful as Sidious but only reached 80% of Sidious full potential.

Originally posted by Decay
the episode 3 visual dictionary said vader cant use or deflect force lightning as a result of having prosthetic limbs. i thought vader being 80% of sidious meant that when rotj came around sidious had pretty much peaked in terms of power and vader had achieved about all he could with his suit, and he was 80% of sidious. thats never started but id always thought that was the meaning. vader isnt likley to be without his saber often, but he would be relying on it as his sole defence, and he threw it at luke in rotj so he was without it briefly.

i always thought lucas ment that vader would have been twice as powerful as sidious without the suit, not twice as powerful as he is with it.

For the force lightning thing, that doesn't make any sense. He can still block the lightning as soon as in reaches his arm stubs.

Not that it matters much by then. His limbs would be cooked, and then the rest of his suit.

What do you mean his limbs would be cooked? Also note that his suit still worked after being hit by Sidious' force lightning.

barely if at all. he couldnt walk and could barely breathe. my guess would be is that all his mech parts were skrewed. luke dragged him becuase his meck legs were useless. luke took his mask off because his mech arms were. id also guess that his breather stopped and he was having to manually do most of it himself which is why it sounds so laboured. he probably had enough of the internal stuff going to keep him alive briefly, while using the force to help sustain him. its also interesting to note that if you look at his skeleton when hes lit up by the lightning a few of his vertebre are mechanical, if they were shorted out it could mean his legs and arms worked, but without the mechanical part of his spine to deliver messages they were useless to him and he was a quadraplegic.

and yeah that makes sense darth sith. hes nowhere near as old as the emperor so wouldnt have the knowlege he does and all that.

I guess you missed the part where as he is being shocked he is still carrying Sidious over his head.

Also, notice that age doesn't appear to matter much in SW. Look at Yoda. If it went only by age, he should be able to pwn most anybody. Same with Odan-Urr.

No, Suit Vader, being mechanical, would be killed by lightning, i.e. ROTJ, eventually anyway.

I mean, even after having is hand lopped off, he got up right away to watch the fireworks, but he went down like a ton of bricks after like 5 seconds of shocking. And he died like, what(?), 15 minutes later.

And I never read or heard GL's quote on Vader's power, but did he specifically say that ROTJ Vader was 80% of ROTJ Palpatine? Or did he say that ROTJ Vader was 80% of ROTS Palpatine?

It's not like GL to contradict himself, but by the sound of it, he would be when analyzing this whole 80% thing, in contrast to, and measuring up against, other opponents.

GL didn't specify which Palpatine, but I think it was in the ROTJ commentary so presumable that one.

BTW, it was stated that Vader was hurt more by that blue wave energy stuff that came up than the lightning itself. The lightning certainly hurt his, but it was the blast that finished his suit off.

Vader also was able to sustain himself without his suit when he wanted to but it required a lot of effort. Does anyone wonder if perhaps Vader just let go when he knew that he had fufilled his destiny and couldn't live withhimself after what he had done?

Technically it would be Anakin doing that, Vader would have been dissolved in that case.

he did carry sidious and keep moving while he was being shocked, i doubt the suit would be instantly destroyed. he could have used the force to hold himself together for the few seconds he needed, or the energy that sidious released upon death finished off his already seriously damaged suit.

he slumps just after that if i recall correctly, so that could mean he exhaused his ability to maintain himself, or that his suit gave out as a result of the explosion. in rise of darth vader it says that he can survive unassisted without the suit for a limited time and by the sounds of his breathing and his completly limp body that his suit had completley ceased to function. after that i think he basically gave up on life after all the evil hed done.

Later on(after rise) Vader is able to completely sustain himself indefinately but it requires a lot of effort. Now, he isn't going to have a lot of strangth after fighting his son and repelling the Emperors force lightning. Yeah, he probably just gave in because he had fufilled his destiny. Perhaps he purposely didn't block Sidious' lightning because he knew that once Sidious was gone his job would be finished and he knew he would never be able to go back to his old life.

yeh your right but wouldnt it be cool if vader found some special fountain of youth or a healing power stronger than bacta that could regenerate his limbs like a frog and restore his old strength letting him reach his potential, and then fight NJO luke, who would win then?

Originally posted by darthsith19
No. It says his full potential is twice that of Sidious's and that in the OT he's 80% as strong as Sidious.

No it doesn't. It says that Vader, after his injuries, can reach about 80% of Sidious's power. It then states that had the accident not occured, he would have been about twice as powerful as he was. Not twice as powerful as Sidious, but twice as powerful as he currently could be.

DS, Faunus is right on the quote, I believe.

Well Anakin's power is practically infinite and god-like had he not be mustafared so it makes little difference

No, Anakin's power is far from infinite. He could have been 60% stronger than Sidious according to Lucas.

Can you compare Anakin at 160% to the top jedi and sith ever?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
No, Anakin's power is far from infinite. He could have been 60% stronger than Sidious according to Lucas.

In all honesty, we have little to go on regarding Anakin's power. The quote that I refer to was said by Lucas, yes, but he's said on another occasion that had Vader reached his full potential, he would have been ten times as powerful as Sidious. All we really know is that his potential power has been greatly diminished, and that the end result is a powerful Sith Lord who is only a shadow of what he could have been.

I've heard that ten times thing before, but I've never actually seen a source. Can you tell me where to find it?

Same here. I've been trying to find it myself. It's most likely on a commentary, but I may be wrong.

Do you think if anakin full power is 10x stronger than sidious that he could beat marka ragnos?

Originally posted by braz
coulda, woulda shoulda, DIDNT! dooku lost the fight...n plus y would he throw the fight on purpose knowing hes gunna die, i know i aint goin out like that just because of what some stupid sith lord named darth sidious thinks
and plus, u even admitted it, anakin had the potential or the ability to get more stronger than even sidious and yoda, so that just shows IMO that he has more power whether he reaches that point or not.....and, i thought they both ruled the galaxy

What're you? Thick? He didn't know he was gonna die. After Palpy said "Kill him.", why don't you try looking at dooku's face? He was SURPRISED! *Gah* He thought he was going to be spared because he thought that being the Sepritist leader made him an exception.

Now for the topic. If we're going by current (ROTS), then Dooku is the most powerful, seeing as how he toyed with Anakin and Obi-Wan together on the ship, and still beat them, until he remembered that he had to throw it. But if we're going by overall, then Vader, because he killed many leftover jedi after the Purge in his suit, which has to account for something, even tho he may have had backup. There's my 2 pennies n a nickle.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
No it doesn't. It says that Vader, after his injuries, can reach about 80% of Sidious's power. It then states that had the accident not occured, he would have been about twice as powerful as he was. Not twice as powerful as Sidious, but twice as powerful as he currently could be.
Where did you hear that? My source is Vanity Fair.

anakin at full power is stronger than any other

Originally posted by ssj3gohan007
anakin at full power is stronger than any other

Prove up or shut up.

actually i heard george lucas say that somewhere maybe on audio commentary

If Lucas said it, I would love to mercilously knock him upside his gray head for starting so many s***storms. And back then vader riding the lightning was amazing, compared to now GL has made a mockery of it, well, him and video game designers. He needs to state the facts instead of leaving it to the fans to decide, for petes sake, enough is enough, the more i watch star wars the more i think Lucas was flying by the seat of his pants for the most part,but it worked for him

Originally posted by Darth243
If Lucas said it, I would love to mercilously knock him upside his gray head for starting so many s***storms. And back then vader riding the lightning was amazing, compared to now GL has made a mockery of it, well, him and video game designers. He needs to state the facts instead of leaving it to the fans to decide, for petes sake, enough is enough, the more i watch star wars the more i think Lucas was flying by the seat of his pants for the most part,but it worked for him whoa, that was so uninteresting i think i mighta nodded off in the middle of.........reading it.....wait there i went again my bad, what were we talking about???? oh yeah a buncha fat guys worshiping another fatguy....

Alright either quit being an ass or get out

Originally posted by Darth243
Alright either quit being an ass or get out


havent seen anyone being an ass...just someone talking about the truth...

Originally posted by Darth243
Alright either quit being an ass or get out how bout you hold your little padwan brithces, we aint gotta go nowhere, we are simply debating...

Aquitted, and its "britches" not "brithces"

Originally posted by Darth243
Aquitted, and its "britches" not "brithces" someone knows how to spell, not only if you didnt dedicate your life to something not as stupid as Star Wars

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Ok... by the way I have been here for three months...so I guess that gives me the oh so mighty right to claim you a n00b? This is freakin retarded.

I have been here since January...try that.

Originally posted by Veneficus
I have been here since January...try that. that means that KMC has been polluted by your filth for 12 months???!!! GOOD GAWD!!!

Did someone say polluted?

Call Captain Planet. He's our hero!!!

I heard he was gonna take pollution down to zero, might be a rumour though.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Did someone say polluted?

Call Captain Planet. He's our hero!!! better than a talking booger.......i think they called him yoda.....