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OK recently iin a lot of threads Iceman has come up and is basically unstoppable with his ability to reform by inhabiting any water molecules so does any1 hav any idea of who can beat him except for telepaths like Xavier (previous thread)as they can mentally shut him down.

Seriously who can beat him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanna no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

johnny storm hes all fire.

Omega level iceman beats Torch...

Omega Level Ice-Man vs Herald of Galactus Human Torch?

Originally posted by golem370
Omega Level Ice-Man vs Herald of Galactus Human Torch?

Still Iceman. Seriously.

- Time travellers
- Reality shifters
- Magic users
- Banishment capable characters
- Anti-mutant powered characters
- HiTech SuperScience characters
- Life/power leeches
- Spirit/soul eaters/controllers
- psychological warfare experts
- writers

There's probably more....

Good list there, Demas. That sounds about right basically.

Originally posted by Demas
- Time travellers
- Reality shifters
- Magic users
- Banishment capable Characters
- Anti-mutant powered characters
- HiTech SuperScience characters
- Life/power leeches
- Spirit/soul eaters/controllers
- psychological warfare experts
- writers

There's probably more....

Yeah thanx 4 that but this will probably sound stupid who are the Banishment capable Charactersand what can they do?

Banishment characters means any character that can take Iceman and force him to be elsewhere/when in a way that he can't get back. Iceman's consciousness goes where his body goes otherwise he wouldn't have been able to time, space, dimension travel as he has in the past. So if someone has the ability to force him into another time, dimension, or space, he'd be stuck there.

Pyschological warfare expert would be someone who manipulates circumstances such that Bobby depowers himself and makes himself vulnerable- if not out and out taking his own life.

Iceman can beat anyone below skyfather because he is colder than the sky.

Thanos Firelord Silver Surfer or Scarlet Witch?

Originally posted by golem370
Thanos Firelord Silver Surfer or Scarlet Witch?
1ceman w1ill FREEEEEEEE EEE EE EzEE thEM!1211

Originally posted by Demas
- Time travellers-depends on if they go back in time before he freezes them
- Reality shifters-same, depends on the mechanisms to there powers, if they have to go 1,2,3,4 to get to it Iceman goes 1 and there done

- Magic users-^^^^

- Banishment capable characters- depends on the type of banishment, cuz if its bodily, iceman can keep his concsouisness here through mouisture inversion or hijack the banishers body

- Anti-mutant powered characters- Sentinals...they never fare very well agianst him

- HiTech SuperScience characters- only if they can block his absolute zero temps, and having their molecules stopped

- Life/power leeches- only if its automatic like leach, otherwise depends on who attacks first

- Spirit/soul eaters/controllers- depends on how fast they act, unless there telepathic, then they generally win

- psychological warfare experts^^^^

- writers

There's probably more....

Originally posted by golem370
Omega Level Ice-Man vs Herald of Galactus Human Torch?

The Human Torch was a Herald of Galactus? If so, I need to start reading FF...What issues please?

Thanos
"His skin in nearly invulnerable, particularly against heat, cold, electricity, radiation, toxins, aging, and disease"

Silver Surfer could turn the beam of Ice in to fire

Firelord is a Cosmic Flamed being.

Originally posted by Crease
The Human Torch was a Herald of Galactus? If so, I need to start reading FF...What issues please?

dont know the issues sorry, but I can tell you that when he was he had Invisible Womens powers enhanced by Galactus, plus he could tell when people were lying to him....something about being able to see the invisible things (like people lying to him)

Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #519 (Dec. 2004

pics

another

Exposure to cosmic radiation enabling the ability to turn self and other objects invisible, project force fields and create defensive or offensive shapes from invisible force energy.
Possibly possesses an extra-sensory perception to compensate for sight when invisible.

Power Cosmic granted by the astrogod Galactus enables god-like strength, speed, agility, endurance, invulnerability to all known diseases and environments and a heightened level of cosmic awareness.

Come now, don't be so protective of Bobby, he can take it (or maybe he can't considering his self-depowering in 178?). I'm not submitting a list of duelists for your consideration, this is a proof that Iceman is far from invulnerable and to that effect, fairly helpless against certain types of enemies.

Put another way, what can he really affect outside the physical realm?

Originally posted by Blair Wind
- Banishment capable characters- depends on the type of banishment, cuz if its bodily, iceman can keep his concsouisness here through mouisture inversion or hijack the banishers body

Disagree. We've seen that his consciousness goes where his body goes whether he wants to or not. Further we've seen his body banished to other dimensions and him being incapable of simply willing his mind back to Earth. Similarly, his mind posseses no time travel abilities, if you banished his body to another time, he'd be unable to will himself back. Finally Moisture inversion is not in current Iceman's arsenal. Hijacking the banisher's body 1. Requires the banisher have moisture- an assumption on your part. 2. The question is not what Bobby can do to defeat, people, it's what can people do to him.



You misunderstand, there are beings and technologies that cancel out a mutant's powers, cutting them off. Not simply a thing that is against mutants. Unless completely biased, it's fair to say Bobby isn't all that powerful cut off from his abilities.



Come now, this is a commentary on how Super-Science is effectively "magic" by another name, don't try to make this a categoric statement (like a lot of your protests).



Or, lack their own coporal bodies... certainly Iceman has no protection against a ghost. You're depositing too many assumptions on the part of the attackers, this is simply a list of things Iceman is vulnerable to.

Originally posted by golem370
Thanos
"His skin in nearly invulnerable, particularly against heat, cold, electricity, radiation, toxins, aging, and disease"

Silver Surfer could turn the beam of Ice in to fire

Firelord is a Cosmic Flamed being.

Can you grasp the concept of freezing from the inside out and not from the outside?

Originally posted by golem370
Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #519 (Dec. 2004

pics

Thanks

Originally posted by Demas


Finally Moisture inversion is not in current Iceman's arsenal. Hijacking the banisher's body 1. Requires the banisher have moisture- an assumption on your part. 2. The question is not what Bobby can do to defeat, people, it's what can people do to him.


while I understand what you are saying in terms of the other attackers, a lot of them have to have a process in doing that, right? it really does all depend on who can think through there "powers" first...and its usually Iceman....now to the quote that I have quoted, who says that Moisture inversion is not in current Icemans arsenal? Unless stated VERY recently and I havent heard of it, Iceman has been able to do it in X-men Forever, which is cannon, and he was able to turn to water vs the Monks in the Xorn arch (which would prove he can still transfigure his body to and from different stages of his element), and unless the banisher is as you said before a ghost or a robot, almost 97% of his enemies have human bodies, or moisture in them, so the assumption is not that great....

I can't believe some people still think that Iceman uses "ice beams". doh

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I can't believe some people still think that Iceman uses "ice beams". doh

I know, its a shame, but then again ppl still think Namor would lose to wolvie .....its just absurd right?

True.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
while I understand what you are saying in terms of the other attackers, a lot of them have to have a process in doing that, right? it really does all depend on who can think through there "powers" first...and its usually Iceman

Only if it's a duel... the OP is open-ended enough to involve scenario fights which leave Bobby vulnerable... particularly to range or stelath attacks. Despite his physical durability, he's not omniscient by far.



The former is highly debatable- controversial at the very least- until more present-day feats appear, it seems rooted in SMvsFL territory, IMO... after all no one else seemed to come away from the experience empowered. The latter still proves my point; his body- whatever form- still serves as the anchor to his consciousness. We'd have to show a disconnect for bodily banishment to not work.



...energy being, temporally displaced, plot-wise invulnerable, magically defended, highscifi defended, etc... There are no shortage of these characters in the Marvel Universe (particularly of "plot-wise invulnerability" where characters are immune to or invulnerable regardless of physical principles).

Let's be clear, Iceman is indeed very powerful, but his abilities are limited to affecting the physical plane and the rational with in it. Comics, by their nature, defy both regularly.

PreCrisis Superman.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Can you grasp the concept of freezing from the inside out and not from the outside?
I'd be dumb if power cosmic couldn't even keep you warm.

I'm thinking
Dr. Strange
Silver Surfer
Shaman
Phoenix
Cosmic Spiderman

And I'm sure that there is more than one member (but I am not one of them) who thinks that either Wolverine or Batman could stop him.

How's that? To be quite honest, I am not completely aware of what a totally ramped up Ice Man is capable of, so take this with a grain of salt.

Silver Surfer soars through space all the time. The temperatures there are near/at absolute zero.

Originally posted by Demas




The former is highly debatable- controversial at the very least- until more present-day feats appear, it seems rooted in SMvsFL territory, IMO... after all no one else seemed to come away from the experience empowered. The latter still proves my point; his body- whatever form- still serves as the anchor to his consciousness. We'd have to show a disconnect for bodily banishment to not work.



...energy being, temporally displaced, plot-wise invulnerable, magically defended, highscifi defended, etc... There are no shortage of these characters in the Marvel Universe (particularly of "plot-wise invulnerability" where characters are immune to or invulnerable regardless of physical principles).

Let's be clear, Iceman is indeed very powerful, but his abilities are limited to affecting the physical plane and the rational with in it. Comics, by their nature, defy both regularly.


ok the part I dont agree with is that Iceman cannot do mouisture inversion, In X-men forever it was stated that he was the potential (everyone was given a "nickname" the fact that he learned to control his powers in new ways was the whole point of him being there, every one had there own subplot, something they had to come to terms with, it just so happened that Iceman's happened to involve his powers....also the point that he can turn his body into those different forms proves that his consouisness would have to be spread out, since there is no big clump of brain all together....


other than higher than skyfather levels, the only one that readily comes to mind is Tempest with his magic and water abilities...and no to Kharma if it was an immediate battle with no prep, there is nothing Wolvie or Batman could do...through physical means he is basically invulernable as he can just reform from being shattered....

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Silver Surfer soars through space all the time. The temperatures there are near/at absolute zero.

three degrees above...but it doesnt matter SS would murder him

does any1 want 2 tell poor old me wat or who the skyfather is?

Has Iceman ever actually hit absolute zero? It's never actually been done in the real world, as far as I know. He can flash freeze an area, yes, but that wouldn't necessarily have to be absolute zero. Bobby's disgustingly powerful, but theoretically, NOTHING can survive being brought down to absolute zero temperatures, and I really don't see him blowing off Galactus's leg by making it that cold.

Originally posted by phase
does any1 want 2 tell poor old me wat or who the skyfather is?

Skyfather is a description of overall power. It's around the level of gods (small g) like Odin and Zeus.

Originally posted by phase
OK recently iin a lot of threads Iceman has come up and is basically unstoppable with his ability to reform by inhabiting any water molecules so does any1 hav any idea of who can beat him except for telepaths like Xavier (previous thread)as they can mentally shut him down.

Seriously who can beat him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanna no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If there are already a ton of these threads whyd you make one?

And i like iceman alot but im afraid if he gets this much "exposure" ppl will start viewing him negativly

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Silver Surfer soars through space all the time. The temperatures there are near/at absolute zero.

That was a reply to Golem's drivel about not being able to freeze Thanos because his skin is resistant to cold.

+ on Earth it's gone near 1 billionth of a degree till absolute zero so it CAN get much much MUCH colder than space.

Point being that i don't know if Iceman can absolute zero freeze Thanos, but the fact that his skin is resistant to cold would have nothing to do with the success or failure of the attempt.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
That was a reply to Golem's drivel about not being able to freeze Thanos because his skin is resistant to cold.

+ on Earth it's gone near 1 billionth of a degree till absolute zero so it CAN get much much MUCH colder than space.

Point being that i don't know if Iceman can absolute zero freeze Thanos, but the fact that his skin is resistant to cold would have nothing to do with the success or failure of the attempt.

SO what your saying is that iceman flash-freezes thanos on the inside turning him into a Popsicle before he does a captain cold style fatality......

Originally posted by grey fox
SO what your saying is that iceman flash-freezes thanos on the inside turning him into a Popsicle before he does a captain cold style fatality......


I don't know if it would work on Thanos or not, but people don't seem to understand how Iceman's powers work. When he freezes something or someone be it from the outside with ice beams or from the inside, he doesn't just turn them into popsicles. The idea is that he stops any sort of kinetic energy in that area. Particles no longer move.
Again, i don't know if it would work on Thanos or not, but him having a skin that is somewhat resistant to cold would have nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen

I don't know if it would work on Thanos or not, but people don't seem to understand how Iceman's powers work. When he freezes something or someone be it from the outside with ice beams or from the inside, he doesn't just turn them into popsicles. The idea is that he stops any sort of kinetic energy in that area. Particles no longer move.


Particles would still move. It's just that most particles move with significantly less energy.

Which is really weird if you think about it. Bobby's apparently the exception to the laws of thermodynamics.

Originally posted by Melnorme
Particles would still move. It's just that most particles move with significantly less energy.

Which is really weird if you think about it. Bobby's apparently the exception to the laws of thermodynamics.

Since humans can make it as close as the billionth part of a degree to absolute zero, i'm assuming Bobby can do even better than that. Sure, it's not complete stop, but hell......for all means, it can be considered that.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Since humans can make it as close as the billionth part of a degree to absolute zero, i'm assuming Bobby can do even better than that. Sure, it's not complete stop, but hell......for all means, it can be considered that.

That's a hell of an assumption.

ive always thought that bobby had the power to take the temperature of things down to absolute zero

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ive always thought that bobby had the power to take the temperature of things down to absolute zero

Nothing does. It might just be impossible.

But even getting within a few degrees is pretty impressive.

If a telekinetic would stop the motion of all particles inside a room, would it be absolute zero?

yea it wud be

Flash...

Flash, i agree would take most of the battles....but knowledge is power...and if Flash doesnt know about mouisture inversion, Iceman wins a few....

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Flash, i agree would take most of the battles....but knowledge is power...and if Flash doesnt know about mouisture inversion, Iceman wins a few....

See now i'm not sure about Bobby winning vs. Flash at all.
Flash could break Iceman a few times. He would notice that he keeps reforming, and then realize he can't be beaten physically. So he could steal Iceman's speed, rendering him motionless.
Bobby could potentially beat Flash by flashfreeze, BUT that would assume that his powers work like Blink's.

What do i mean by that?
Blink thinks of someone somewhere and can port anything in or out of that person. She can think of a place somewhere and port someone there. She doesn't have to know where the place is or ever been to it, etc.
If Colossus is riding the bycicle and Blink decides to port a ton of jelly into him, she doesn't port into his location, she ports directly into her body. He can be running or cycling at 100 mph for all she cares, since she's not using location to port. She's using her mind like a laser pin-pointing system.

If Iceman can use his powers the same way, aka not freezing the AREA a foe is in, but rather the foe in himself, he could beat Flash. If not, he can't.
Because if Flash is running and Iceman's power freezes an area, he won't be caught in it.

In other words, if when Bobby uses his powers he thinks:
"Freeze where Flash is" he'll never get Wally.
If he thinks:
"Freeze Flash no matter the location" then he can freeze Wally.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
See now i'm not sure about Bobby winning vs. Flash at all.
Flash could break Iceman a few times. He would notice that he keeps reforming, and then realize he can't be beaten physically. So he could steal Iceman's speed, rendering him motionless.
Bobby could potentially beat Flash by flashfreeze, BUT that would assume that his powers work like Blink's.

What do i mean by that?
Blink thinks of someone somewhere and can port anything in or out of that person. She can think of a place somewhere and port someone there. She doesn't have to know where the place is or ever been to it, etc.
If Colossus is riding the bycicle and Blink decides to port a ton of jelly into him, she doesn't port into his location, she ports directly into her body. He can be running or cycling at 100 mph for all she cares, since she's not using location to port. She's using her mind like a laser pin-pointing system.

If Iceman can use his powers the same way, aka not freezing the AREA a foe is in, but rather the foe in himself, he could beat Flash. If not, he can't.
Because if Flash is running and Iceman's power freezes an area, he won't be caught in it.

In other words, if when Bobby uses his powers he thinks:
"Freeze where Flash is" he'll never get Wally.
If he thinks:
"Freeze Flash no matter the location" then he can freeze Wally.

Didnt you see the Iceman scans before? Iceman CAN freeze the person inside and not the area. Plus if Flash were to shatter Bobby, he wouldnt reform right away. Iceman can still use his powers even while bodyless/shattered. Hed gather moisture from within Wallys body reforming himself.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Didnt you see the Iceman scans before? Iceman CAN freeze the person inside and not the area. Plus if Flash were to shatter Bobby, he wouldnt reform right away. Iceman can still use his powers even while bodyless/shattered. Hed gather moisture from within Wallys body reforming himself.

No proof of that.
What's OBVIOUS isn't that he freezes the person and not the area. What's obvious is that he freezes from the inside to the outside. That doesn't however mean he's attacking the person and not the area.

If he does attack the person and not the area (i'll concede if it can be proved via scans), he can beat Flash in the way you described.

If he attacks an area and not the person, even if it's from the inside to the outside, he won't be beating flash if flash is running.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
No proof of that.
What's OBVIOUS isn't that he freezes the person and not the area. What's obvious is that he freezes from the inside to the outside. That doesn't however mean he's attacking the person and not the area.

If he does attack the person and not the area (i'll concede if it can be proved via scans), he can beat Flash in the way you described.

If he attacks an area and not the person, even if it's from the inside to the outside, he won't be beating flash if flash is running.

No proof of what? There was proof.

His body was shattered, with nothing but a head left and he reformed by taking all the moisture from the persons body from within, thus reforming himself.

If Flash is running, Bobby would have to get hit in order to execute some of his moves. If he tries a IMP, that gives Iceman plenty of time of prepare something for when Flash gets there to throw him off.

Originally posted by jrodslam
No proof of what? There was proof.

His body was shattered, with nothing but a head left and he reformed by taking all the moisture from the persons body from within, thus reforming himself.

If Flash is running, Bobby would have to get hit in order to execute some of his moves. If he tries a IMP, that gives Iceman plenty of time of prepare something for when Flash gets there to throw him off.

No proof of him attacking the person and not the area the person is residing in.

And yeah, i'm completely aware of his reforming abilities, though i don't remember the "only his head remained" thing you mentioned. If it's from x-men forever, it was his entire upper side that was left intact, but that doesn't matter.

Also, even if he was shown to take a person's moisture to reform himself, that STILL doesn't prove that he's attacking a person and not the area the person is in.

If Flash tries an IMP, Bobby gets broken. If he can attack the person and not the area, he can defeat Flash even since before he's reformed. But i haven't seen any proof that he does that.
If not, it's a stalemate until Flash realizes that the only way to stop an "elemental golem" character like Iceman is to take their speed, and then he wins.

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
No proof of him attacking the person and not the area the person is residing in.

And yeah, i'm completely aware of his reforming abilities, though i don't remember the "only his head remained" thing you mentioned. If it's from x-men forever, it was his entire upper side that was left intact, but that doesn't matter.

Also, even if he was shown to take a person's moisture to reform himself, that STILL doesn't prove that he's attacking a person and not the area the person is in.

If Flash tries an IMP, Bobby gets broken. If he can attack the person and not the area, he can defeat Flash even since before he's reformed. But i haven't seen any proof that he does that.
If not, it's a stalemate until Flash realizes that the only way to stop an "elemental golem" character like Iceman is to take their speed, and then he wins.

Ahh. Its clear that were talking about different events here. Sorry about that. I though you saw the one i was referring to. Ill try to look for the scan for you.

You have to remember that Flash takes a few seconds to deliver a IMP. Bobby can do alot with his surroundings in that time. Hopefully causing Wally to lose his balance.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1381/iceman13gv6mg.th.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5433/iceman20rs7pj.th.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/614/iceman32ns7rx.th.jpg

Originally posted by jrodslam
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1381/iceman13gv6mg.th.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5433/iceman20rs7pj.th.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/614/iceman32ns7rx.th.jpg

Very awesome. Who was that chick btw?

However, that STILL doesn't prove he attacks the person. She was sitting in one spot, and then the moisture was taken from her. The same effect would've occurred if he drained the moisture from the area she was in, and therfore the moisture in HER (as a consequence of her being the spot he was draining the moisture from).

See where i'm going with this?

(btw: i'm loving this discussion. But your evil afro haircut ways will not win this day )

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
Very awesome. Who was that chick btw?

However, that STILL doesn't prove he attacks the person. She was sitting in one spot, and then the moisture was taken from her. The same effect would've occurred if he drained the moisture from the area she was in, and therfore the moisture in HER (as a consequence of her being the spot he was draining the moisture from).

See where i'm going with this?

(btw: i'm loving this discussion. But your evil afro haircut ways will not win this day )

Beats the hell outta me who she is.

BUT it does indeed prove he attacks her. Notice how shes dead and he says " I found my water elsewhere. I think ill put it to better use than SHE did."

Meaning he took all the water that was inside her and reformed himself. Iceman can control where he gets him water from obviously. She had two of his allies in her grasp and they werent affected. It had nothing to do with where she was standing, because the kids were in the same area she was. He got it directly from her and thats very clear.

Originally posted by jrodslam
You have to remember that Flash takes a few seconds to deliver a IMP.

Uh, that's patently not true. The entire fight with Zum- birth-story of the IMP, so coined- took place in less than a second. Later instances of throwing the IMP, Flash says he can throw a thousand in a blink WHILE at super-speed.

What Dark Urizen is asking is whether Bobby can target something he can't perceive but can conceive. Your scan does not demonstrate that since his target is clearly perceptable.

Personally, I'm convinced he can't, which is why he was surprised by the stealthed/piloted Sentinel in the recent issue of X-Men. It's not like he "tracked the pilot's moisture" to know there was someone hidden there... instead, he was just as surprised as everyone else.

That means if Flash stays beyond Iceman's perception, he should be untargetable.

Originally posted by Demas
Uh, that's patently not true. The entire fight with Zum- birth-story of the IMP, so coined- took place in less than a second. Later instances of throwing the IMP, Flash says he can throw a thousand in a blink WHILE at super-speed.

What Dark Urizen is asking is whether Bobby can target something he can't perceive but can conceive. Your scan does not demonstrate that since his target is clearly perceptable.

Personally, I'm convinced he can't, which is why he was surprised by the stealthed/piloted Sentinel in the recent issue of X-Men. It's not like he "tracked the pilot's moisture" to know there was someone hidden there... instead, he was just as surprised as everyone else.

That means if Flash stays beyond Iceman's perception, he should be untargetable.

Well in the fight with Zum it appeared to have taken place in less than a second and he wasnt even going light speed at the time. Yet more times than not, it takes him several seconds to do so.

Secondly, in current issues of X-Men, Bobby isnt in complete control of his powers. Also he along with the others did know of the cloaked being that was in the area. Also, the pilot is inside the Sentinel which most likely hides and protects the being from giving off heat signatures. Iceman wouldnt be able to detect a human in it because its over 20ft high for one and his powers are out of control for two. So that point is nulled.

Like ive stated before, i have no doubts that Flash can hit Bobby and shatter him. Thats what most likely will happen. However, Flash will be percieved after that hit and thats where he can get his damage in to take down Flash.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Beats the hell outta me who she is.

BUT it does indeed prove he attacks her. Notice how shes dead and he says " I found my water elsewhere. I think ill put it to better use than SHE did."

Meaning he took all the water that was inside her and reformed himself. Iceman can control where he gets him water from obviously. She had two of his allies in her grasp and they werent affected. It had nothing to do with where she was standing, because the kids were in the same area she was. He got it directly from her and thats very clear.

Again, what i'm saying is that the effect would be the exact same if he were draining the moisture from the spot she's in rather than directly from her body.

Originally posted by Demas
Uh, that's patently not true. The entire fight with Zum- birth-story of the IMP, so coined- took place in less than a second. Later instances of throwing the IMP, Flash says he can throw a thousand in a blink WHILE at super-speed.

What Dark Urizen is asking is whether Bobby can target something he can't perceive but can conceive. Your scan does not demonstrate that since his target is clearly perceptable.

Personally, I'm convinced he can't, which is why he was surprised by the stealthed/piloted Sentinel in the recent issue of X-Men. It's not like he "tracked the pilot's moisture" to know there was someone hidden there... instead, he was just as surprised as everyone else.

That means if Flash stays beyond Iceman's perception, he should be untargetable.

yes
you got it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Well in the fight with Zum it appeared to have taken place in less than a second and he wasnt even going light speed at the time. Yet more times than not, it takes him several seconds to do so.

Secondly, in current issues of X-Men, Bobby isnt in complete control of his powers. Also he along with the others did know of the cloaked being that was in the area. Also, the pilot is inside the Sentinel which most likely hides and protects the being from giving off heat signatures. Iceman wouldnt be able to detect a human in it because its over 20ft high for one and his powers are out of control for two. So that point is nulled.

Like ive stated before, i have no doubts that Flash can hit Bobby and shatter him. Thats what most likely will happen. However, Flash will be percieved after that hit and thats where he can get his damage in to take down Flash.

I agree with that. Flash can and will destroy bobby's body. But i don't think Bobby can hurt Flash, given that there's no proof that he attacks a person rather than a spot.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Well in the fight with Zum it appeared to have taken place in less than a second and he wasnt even going light speed at the time. Yet more times than not, it takes him several seconds to do so.

No, most of the time Flash pulls out the IMP after trying several other tactics at highspeed... all still taking less than a second. And if we're going to say "most of the time" then Bobby's superior powers don't come into play have occured only once or twice in dozens of appearances (or do I need to count off all the times Bobby hasn't been used to his peak potential in X-Men?). If you're trying to question Flash's acceleration, there's no question, I can provide several feats showing instantaneous "bullet-time" as a reflex... at least sufficient to beat thought.



Uh, then wouldn't be be lacking for any rumbles using current Bobby? Even if you want to use that excuse you can use just a few issue back where Bobby fails to have moisture omniscience... he can still be stealthed, skunked, or caught unawares which suggests his targeting is entirely perception based.



By that argument Flash, even without travelling faster than light/thought/information should be inperceptible to Iceman's senses because his Speed Force aura shields him from heat & friction and likewise shields the environment from his signature- which is why he doesn't cause fire-trails and sonic-booms whever he goes.



If 20ft height prevents Iceman from detection, why wouldn't travelling faster than light/thought/information? By the time Bobby forms a thought or reflex, I can assure you, Flash can be significantly further than 20ft away.



I disagree. Flash has fought many an elemental and knows better. For that matter, it doesn't take a whole lot of experience to realize shattering a golem made of ice you can see through isn't going to do much to it. Anyways we've been here before... if they both bust out their best feats, Flash wins. If they both act in character, it's a stalemate. The only case where Iceman wins is when he wants to kill and Flash doesn't.



Again, only if Flash goes for an obviously useless shattering, sticks around, and Iceman decides to use lethal force - otherwise Flash reacts and/or escapes. It needs to be restated: Flash regularly deals with absolute zero temps from Captain Cold; so that alone is not enough to stop him.

wouldnt this pic prove that he attacks a person (to wickerman....sorry i cant remember your new name...Dark Urizen???)

http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg

Originally posted by Demas

I disagree. Flash has fought many an elemental and knows better. For that matter, it doesn't take a whole lot of experience to realize shattering a golem made of ice you can see through isn't going to do much to it.



Thats an assumption....if you beat the crap outa an ice golem and it just shatters and you dont see anything....wouldnt you just say, "damn that was easy...." and move on?

Originally posted by Blair Wind
wouldnt this pic prove that he attacks a person (to wickerman....sorry i cant remember your new name...Dark Urizen???)

http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg

Yeah, it's Dark Urizen

No, it doesn't i'm afraid. It shows Emma just standing there in one place. There's nothing that would imply him attacking HER, Emma, rather than her location.

See, i used the Blink thing earlier to explain the difference, let me make it easier to understand this way:

Blink has proven on several times that she can port things into PEOPLE and not into their location. One such example would be against Hyperion. Hyperion was vibrating his molecules at such speed, that he was for all means intangible. You could put a hand through him.

Blink ports half a ton of sand into him. It shows she ports it directly into the PERSON, because if she would have ported it into Hyperion's location, it would've fallen to the ground, since he was for all means intangible.

Iceman on the other hand doesn't have AFAIK a feat like that that would prove (without question) that his powers affect PERSONS rather than their locations.

Iceman was freezing the flow of blood to Emma's brain. What he did was purely an attack on HER and not the location. He didnt freeze the area around her. He used her own blood and stopped it from flowing.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Iceman was freezing the flow of blood to Emma's brain. What he did was purely an attack on HER and not the location. He didnt freeze the area around her. He used her own blood and stopped it from flowing.

I'm not getting through to you.
By location i don't mean the area completely. There doesn't have to be like......visible proof like the air around her sparkling or anything. If he attacks the location like i say (and there's no proof that says otherwise), then he targets each small spot individually and they are automatically assembled as a whole which is affected.

Wow.......that's complicated and hard to grasp. Dammit......i wish i could be more eloquent (i'm serious).

Ok, here's a little drawing to tell you what i mean.

This is what i, Dark Urizen, mean by affecting location. Notice the yellow dots (that i only put on the arteries around the heart, cause i'm lazy). Those are the spots he's affecting. But he's affecting their location, not the person they reside in.

And here's what i think YOU understand by what i'm saying.

See the difference?

When i say location, i don't mean like an area around her where she's located. It can be as small as he wants to. The idea is that she's overlapping a location with certain coordinates, and as far as i'm concerned, he's affecting those coordinates, not what resides IN those coordinates.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
Thats an assumption....if you beat the crap outa an ice golem and it just shatters and you dont see anything....wouldnt you just say, "damn that was easy...." and move on?

1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.

2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.

Originally posted by Demas
1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.


so he will think that hes a done deal]


2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.

dont get me wrong I think Flash wins 8.5/10......but iceman will win some

Originally posted by Demas
1. No. Not with basic info on Iceman. A founding X-Man with several years of experience isn't defeated by a punch. And again, Flash has fought enough elementals, which ISN'T an assumption, unlike all the groundless statements on what he would or wouldn't do. It would be like me saying Bobby, faced with a cosmically powered individual just pisses his pants and depowers in hopelessness. Then continually insisting, "Isn't that what anyone would do against a cosmic?" That argument doesn't work because Bobby has faced cosmic individuals. The same for Flash. The argument that he would first resort to a punch and stop there is bogus because it's contrary to his history and experience.

2. Move on? Then what exactly is Iceman responding to? Shatter and go home, Iceman's just going to reform with nothing to target. Of course this all relies on FORCING Flash to uncharacteristically shatter Bobby and then Bobby uncharacteristically using lethal force against someone who didn't use lethal force against him, which is all sorts of wrong. I might as well say that Bobby depowers, sets his own head on a block, and hands Flash an axe which is almost as in character as the shatter scenario.

Take into account please that I personally am using the "Flash shatters Bobby" scenario because it's the most favorable one for Bobby, and i want to prove that even in the most favorable scenario for him, he still won't win.

I completely agree with you that Flash is smarter than just shattering him, especially since he can stretch the time it would take Iceman to form a though into days, just standing there and investigating what Iceman looks like, what he might be like, etc.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
dont get me wrong I think Flash wins 8.5/10......but iceman will win some

GODDAMIT I GO OUT OF MY MIND POSTING LIKE A MAD MAN IN THIS DAMN THREAD TRYING TO REACH OUT AND EXPLAIN MY POINT OF VIEW, MAKING SCHEMES AND SHIT, AT LEAST TAKE THEM INTO ACCOUNT AND SAY "I DON'T CARE" OR SOMETHING SO THAT I KNOW SOMEONE IS ACTUALLY READING GODDAMMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






Sorry
I'm very very tired and it's snowing outside and i have a headache cry

Originally posted by Dark Urizen
See the difference?

When i say location, i don't mean like an area around her where she's located. It can be as small as he wants to. The idea is that she's overlapping a location with certain coordinates, and as far as i'm concerned, he's affecting those coordinates, not what resides IN those coordinates.




very plausible..... happy!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Blair Wind
very plausible..... happy!!!!!!!!






Yes luv

It's snowing and i'm with my balcony door opened in my boxers

i wana kno more about a psychological war expert

Originally posted by o.g. slaughter
i wana kno more about a psychological war expert

Take something like a demon sitting on Bobby's shoulder speaking thoughts into his ear that he might sometimes think are his own. Bobby can't fight a spirit with his powers, but meanwhile that voice can work Bobby over bringing up all his past failures, questioning his self-worth, crushing his hopes, and making him give into despair.

In such a situation, it's possible Bobby depowers and takes his own life.

That's just one scenario, but the basic point is that someone or something brings Bobby to the point of cutting himself from his own powers, like in the recent events of X-Men, and thus making him conventionally vulnerable.

Originally posted by Demas
Take something like a demon sitting on Bobby's shoulder speaking thoughts into his ear that he might sometimes think are his own. Bobby can't fight a spirit with his powers, but meanwhile that voice can work Bobby over bringing up all his past failures, questioning his self-worth, crushing his hopes, and making him give into despair.

In such a situation, it's possible Bobby depowers and takes his own life.

That's just one scenario, but the basic point is that someone or something brings Bobby to the point of cutting himself from his own powers, like in the recent events of X-Men, and thus making him conventionally vulnerable.

There are drugs in the employ of several government funded agencies that can do exactly that yes