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Yahweh-The entity known as Yahweh was the architect for the current universe. An independent contractor, who was hired to design the framework of the universe after the Big Bang. Yahweh is mostly known as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God of Earth, sometimes called YHWH, Yahweh, Allah and God.

Yahweh, if you're speaking of the one from Lucifer comics would beat Lucifer any day of the weak. He can just unmake him, with a thought as he can with all of creation.

Abraxas
Abrogate
Agamotto the All-Seeing
Akhenaten
Ancient One (I)
Anomaly (I)
Anthropomorpho
Atlez
Death (I)
Designate
Empathy
Enigma Force
Enmity
Entropy
Eon (I)
Epiphany
Epoch
Era
Eternity (I)
Eulogy
Expediency
Galactus
Galaxy Master
Goblin Force
Hawk God of Arcturus
Hunger (II)
the Infinites
Infinity (I)
Infinity (II)
Jakar
Khatylis
Living Tribunal
Lord Chaos
the Makers
Master Order
Mistress Love
Nebulos
Nemesis (V)
Oblivion
Omega (IV)
One Above All (I)
Origin
Oshtur
Other (IV)
Phoenix Force
Rot
Sire Hate
Star Brand
Stranger (I)
Tyrant
Unbeing
Vortex (II)
Warlock, Adam (I)
Wolverine (I)
Zalkor

The Celestials
Arishem the Judge
Ashema the Listener
Black Celestial (II)
Blue Celestial
Devron the Experimentor
Eson the Searcher
Exitar the Exterminator
Gamiel the Manipulator
Gammenon the Gatherer
Hargen the Measurer
Jemiah the Analyzer
Nezar the Calculator
One Above All (II)
Oneg the Prober
Red Celestial
Scathan the Approver
Tefral the Surveyor
Tiamut the Dreaming Celestial
Ziran the Tester

Cosmic Cubes
Beyonder
Kubik
Shaper of Worlds
Supremor (I)

Deities
Anthos
Hercules (I)
Thor (I)
Walker (II)
Yahweh

You're speaking of Marvel's then?
You're on your own, but I doubt there's really anything supporting either side.

Never heard of this Marvel Yahweh and theres nothing to suggest hes the actual Yahweh. His role in Marvel suggests thats far from the case. With that in mind Lucifer wins.

Yahweh wins, there is only 1 Yahweh.

Originally posted by kevdude
Yahweh wins, there is only 1 Yahweh.

Kevdude it doesnt work like that. By your logic Mephisto should be more powerful than he is.

Golem is referring to some entity who refers to himself as Yahweh. It hasnt been shown on panel that he is the actual Yahweh and his role in Marvel suggests that is not the case.

Godheads by Pantheon

Anasazi (Native American) - Manitou, though Tomazooma is shown in Thor I#300 (he didn't exist in real world mythology)
The Innua (Inuit/Eskimo) may or may not be a separate pantheon.
The Pueblo are referenced in Thor Annual#10, and might refer to Awonawilona.
Annunaki (Mesopotamian) - Anu
--Replaced by Enlil {Sumerian},
--by Marduk {Babylonian},
--by Ba'al-Hadad (Assyrian and Phoenician})
Asgardian (Norse) - Odin, Thor
Australian/Aboriginal Gods - mentioned in the OHotMU, but not seen.
Thuremlin per Ronald Byrd, Baiame per Eric J. Moreels.
Daevas (Hindu) - Vishnu (in trinity with Brahma and Shiva)
Vedic/Persian: Atar, Mitra/Mithras
Dievas (Russian) - Svarog
Heliopolitan (Egyptian) - Ammon Ra, Osiris, and Horus
--In Egyptian myth, Osiris was never more than god of the dead.
--Ammon Ra, however, was considered the Egyptian counterpart to Zeus (or Ouranos?).
Incan - Viracocha
Kahunas (Oceanic) - Tame
The Polynesian gods are specifically mentioned and would reference Tangaroa
Kalevalans (Finnish) - Ukko
Kami (Japanese Gods) - Izanagi, Takamimusubi, Amaterasu
--Religously, Izanagi was supplanted by the other two as the divine couple,
but all the myths revere Amaterasu as the true power and her husband as sort of a "figurehead"
Orishas/Loa (African/Voodoo) - Buluku; Ndriananahary, possibly also Nyambe, Lusa
The Yoruba are specifically mentioned, and would reference Olodumare
--My book on African spirits places a lot of importance as Nyambe as ruler, judge and Great Spirit.
--Lusa (Voodoo) is mentioned only as the sun-god who fathered the Great Twins of which Shango and Damballah are two of.
--In the MU, I would surmise that Buluku supersedes them both to keep dissension out of the Voodoo Gods and their relations, the Orishas {African Gods}
Mexican
With the subdivisions
Aztec Tezcatlipoca and perhaps Quetzalcoatl
Mayan Hunab-Ku and Itzamna
Mongolian/Siberian - Ulgen
Olympian (Graeco-Roman) - Zeus
Tuatha da Danaan (Celtic) - Dagda or Nuadhu
Xian (Chinese) - Shou-Hsing, Yu Huang
Judeo-Christian - God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit
--According to a former intern from Marvel, in What If I#32, the character seen in the bottom right panel of the gods and demons blocked from accessing Earth by Korvac was supposed to be Yahweh, though it looks more like Jesus.

Originally posted by golem370
Godheads by Pantheon

Anasazi (Native American) - Manitou, though Tomazooma is shown in Thor I#300 (he didn't exist in real world mythology)
The Innua (Inuit/Eskimo) may or may not be a separate pantheon.
The Pueblo are referenced in Thor Annual#10, and might refer to Awonawilona.
Annunaki (Mesopotamian) - Anu
--Replaced by Enlil {Sumerian},
--by Marduk {Babylonian},
--by Ba'al-Hadad (Assyrian and Phoenician})
Asgardian (Norse) - Odin, Thor
Australian/Aboriginal Gods - mentioned in the OHotMU, but not seen.
Thuremlin per Ronald Byrd, Baiame per Eric J. Moreels.
Daevas (Hindu) - Vishnu (in trinity with Brahma and Shiva)
Vedic/Persian: Atar, Mitra/Mithras
Dievas (Russian) - Svarog
Heliopolitan (Egyptian) - Ammon Ra, Osiris, and Horus
--In Egyptian myth, Osiris was never more than god of the dead.
--Ammon Ra, however, was considered the Egyptian counterpart to Zeus (or Ouranos?).
Incan - Viracocha
Kahunas (Oceanic) - Tame
The Polynesian gods are specifically mentioned and would reference Tangaroa
Kalevalans (Finnish) - Ukko
Kami (Japanese Gods) - Izanagi, Takamimusubi, Amaterasu
--Religously, Izanagi was supplanted by the other two as the divine couple,
but all the myths revere Amaterasu as the true power and her husband as sort of a "figurehead"
Orishas/Loa (African/Voodoo) - Buluku; Ndriananahary, possibly also Nyambe, Lusa
The Yoruba are specifically mentioned, and would reference Olodumare
--My book on African spirits places a lot of importance as Nyambe as ruler, judge and Great Spirit.
--Lusa (Voodoo) is mentioned only as the sun-god who fathered the Great Twins of which Shango and Damballah are two of.
--In the MU, I would surmise that Buluku supersedes them both to keep dissension out of the Voodoo Gods and their relations, the Orishas {African Gods}
Mexican
With the subdivisions
Aztec Tezcatlipoca and perhaps Quetzalcoatl
Mayan Hunab-Ku and Itzamna
Mongolian/Siberian - Ulgen
Olympian (Graeco-Roman) - Zeus
Tuatha da Danaan (Celtic) - Dagda or Nuadhu
Xian (Chinese) - Shou-Hsing, Yu Huang
Judeo-Christian - God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit
--According to a former intern from Marvel, in What If I#32, the character seen in the bottom right panel of the gods and demons blocked from accessing Earth by Korvac was supposed to be Yahweh, though it looks more like Jesus.

Youve posted from marvunapp in quite a few threads now. What point are you trying to make by posting this?

If he wasn't the True Yahweh why is he in the God Head council

Godhead Council Only in Marvels fecked up Universe Thank god for House of M!!!

Yes GS "Why is he in the God Head council". End quote

Originally posted by golem370
If he wasn't the True Yahweh why is he in the God Head council

The fact that hes in the godhead council tells you that he is not the true Yahweh Golem.

All of those in the godhead council got defeated by Korvac in what if V1 issue 32. Do you really think thats the true Yahweh?

On top of that Living Tribunal hasnt actually seen TOAA he just takes orders from him. Therefore as aforementioned this is not the true supreme being, He is not uber as shown on panel and as such Lucifer would tear him apart.

Where do u get Mephisto being more powerful when i said that??? not true. Anyway Yahweh/The Presence is the God of the current DC/Marvel Universe. there is a being named The Infinite which lays beyond The Source Wall and The Source.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that hes in the godhead council tells you that he is not the true Yahweh Golem.

All of those in the godhead council got defeated by Korvac in what if V1 issue 32. Do you really think thats the true Yahweh?

On top of that Living Tribunal hasnt actually seen TOAA he just takes orders from him. Therefore as aforementioned this is not the true supreme being, He is not uber as shown on panel and as such Lucifer would tear him apart.

Is What If? canon now GS? but you're right over Yahweh this time. You know the hunt for Yahwehs nmae is the true basis of your original K word. of course you didn't - oh well.

He is a Deity just Like Zeus Odin and Brahma


Judeo-Christian - God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit
--According to a former intern from Marvel, in What If I#32, the character seen in the bottom right panel of the gods and demons blocked from accessing Earth by Korvac was supposed to be Yahweh, though it looks more like Jesus

Originally posted by golem370
He is a Deity just Like Zeus Odin and Brahma


Judeo-Christian - God/Yahweh/Allah, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit
--According to a former intern from Marvel, in What If I#32, the character seen in the bottom right panel of the gods and demons blocked from accessing Earth by Korvac was supposed to be Yahweh, though it looks more like Jesus

this is why Marvel fans will burn in hell!!!!!!!

People infact LT Eternity and Galactus are Above them.

Made If I believe in Hell

I would have to agree with Golem here.

You will all burn in hell for putting other gods above the one true god...... burn you atheists.

Hell is for people who listens to Fairy Tales like Humpty Dumpty

Originally posted by kevdude
Where do u get Mephisto being more powerful when i said that??? not true. Anyway Yahweh/The Presence is the God of the current DC/Marvel Universe. there is a being named The Infinite which lays beyond The Source Wall and The Source.

We're not talking crossover here Kev so all your DC related talk isnt relevant.

The being in question is part of the same council as Zeuz and the like. He along with them was defeated by Korvac. He is not the supreme being.

Just like Mephisto is not actually the Satan of Judeo/Christian mythology but a being who calls himself so based on that being. Yahweh of Marvel is not the supreme being.

Well Inless you believe in very Religion and there god then your an atheist to

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Is What If? canon now GS? but you're right over Yahweh this time. You know the hunt for Yahwehs nmae is the true basis of your original K word. of course you didn't - oh well.

Of course im right Whirly. I didnt need your support.

If this Yahweh was the supreme being then me using his appearance in a What If as support for my case is just fine. Just like using LT from a what if is fine. So your point on what ifs is void.

Yahweh is a Human Deity LT are beyond a Human Deity

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Of course im right Whirly. I didnt need your support.



Yeah you did, these guys were killing you - No need to thank me

Originally posted by golem370
Yahweh is a Human Deity LT are beyond a Human Deity

What are you trying to say about this Yahweh? Are you trying to present him as the supreme being?

There is no killing here

Originally posted by golem370
Well Inless you believe in very Religion and there god then your an atheist to

"Unless" Golem - "Unless" and you will all burn in hell anyway heathens, raise your false idols the one true god will smite them.

Babylon burning, Babylon burning.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Yeah you did, these guys were killing you - No need to thank me

Hardly the case. Anyone with common sense can see that this character is not the supreme being.

More posts from the opposition does not equate to a killing. Quality over quantity my friend. Plus i was dealing with your spam on the other forum.


So basically SHHHHHH!!!

I was making a joke about Supreme Beings If the Supreme Being in DC is Yahweh then I saying he is no different then a Deity like Zeus. DC may have made him above everybody else in DC. But I believe he is comparable to Zeus and Odin

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hardly the case. Anyone with common sense can see that this character is not the supreme being.


So basically SHHHHHH!!!

You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quality over quantity


the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

Whirly I bet you can site more info about Comic books then your Beliefs

I will leave it at this Quote "I am like God, and God like me. I am as large as God, He is as small as I. He cannot above me, nor I beneath Him be"

Originally posted by golem370
I was making a joke about Supreme Beings If the Supreme Being in DC is Yahweh then I saying he is no different then a Deity like Zeus. DC may have made him above everybody else in DC. But I believe he is comparable to Zeus and Odin

Based on what? The fact that Marvel has a figure who calls himself Yahweh who isnt uber. Thats a weak case Golem.

Thats like saying DC's Lucifer isnt much greater than the skyfathers because Marvel have Mephisto.

I saying DC exaggerates Yahweh when he no more potent then then other Fake Gods

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me





the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

More spam

I now Mephisto is not Satan because Marvel Doesn't believe in a Satan there are beings in Marvel who are depicted by Satan but they are not the so-called Satan.Marvel does not believe in Human Gods The do not call the One Above All God he is the one above All.

Originally posted by golem370
I now Mephisto is not Satan because Marvel Doesn't believe in a Satan there are beings in Marvel who are depicted by Satan but they are not the so-called Satan.Marvel does not believe in Human Gods The do not call the One Above All God he is the one above All.

Read Defenders 75 Satan makes hell on Earth.

Originally posted by golem370
I saying DC exaggerates Yahweh when he no more potent then then other Fake Gods

You cant say that theyre exaggerating Golem. Its their comic book world and what they say goes. They have chosen Yahweh as the supreme being and you must accept that.

Marvel hasnt therefore you cant use a marvel version of Yahweh who is presented as no more than skyfather level and use him to suggest things about Dc's version. Theyre not connected in anyway.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hardly the case. Anyone with common sense can see that this character is not the supreme being.


So basically SHHHHHH!!!

You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quality over quantity


the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me





the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

More spam from a frustrated old man who has failed once again.



Desperate measures from a man who has no ground to stand on.

Im supported by the comics and now the handbooks reaffirmed my comments made over the last 6 months.

Crown: check

Jean = Phoenix: check

Anything interpretation which says otherwise is according to Marvel very much false. I guess thats it for both you and your fansites.

Sorry mate.

DC calls there supreme being where does it say that.

every universe has its own pantheon of gods in the MU even its own Lord Chaos, Eternity, Galactus, Death etc this yawhey cannot have been the DC one because that one is even greater then TOAA since just two of his underlings can make a whole multiverse how much more can the presence do so if TOAA had to kill himself to recreate the MU in Thanos The End and they will say its not canon. oh by the way if LT appears in any comic it is the same LT that came out in Infinity Gauntlet and the same LT that came out with Adam Warlock if you say that is not so you must say that there is more then one LT which is not possible and if you say What Ifs never happend i guess you call the Watcher a liar which is just stupid calling a comic book character a liar. LT has the power to destroy a whole planet not a whole universe he can isolate one he lost to korvac in a what if i already stated why he did infact lost above he tried destroying the earth which at the time was the source of Korvacs power Korvac stopped it and LT was stunned and said questioned if Korvac had become so strong as to not be under the LT's judgements, Korvac was as powerful as Eternity beyond that there are beings known as the Time Twisters who are more powerful then LT because they can basically age or unage anyone or something to the point of not being born or of dieing of old age.

This post upsets little "boy" GS

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hardly the case. Anyone with common sense can see that this character is not the supreme being.


So basically SHHHHHH!!!

You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quality over quantity


the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
This post upsets little "boy" GS



You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me





the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

Whatever you say mate. Im not the one who goes around spamming the same post across multiple forums when ive run out of anything relevant to say. Either way Whirly we've both said all that needs to be said. So lets not carry this on. We're spoiling peoples threads and thats not on. Be grown up about it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Whatever you say mate. Im not the one who goes around spamming the same post across multiple forums when ive run out of anything relevant to say. Either way Whirly we've both said all that needs to be said. So lets not carry this on. We're spoiling peoples threads and thats not on. Be grown up about it.

OK but one last time

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hardly the case. Anyone with common sense can see that this character is not the supreme being.


So basically SHHHHHH!!!

You mean Phoenix its ok I'll shsss I won't tell anyone trust me



Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quality over quantity


the irony of that statement is lost on none I suspect

Keep the quaility

Stay Whirly


Classic

BEELZEBOUL-Real Name: Beelzeboul

Identity/Class: Demon

Occupation: Ruler of his own Hell dimension

Group Membership: Hell-Lords?

Affiliations: Roger Barbatos; His demon servants

Enemies: Cassandra Drakonmegas; Hellfire; Terror

Known Relatives: Cassandra Drakonmegas (ex-wife); Hellfire (son);
possibly Satana (daughter?); possibly Daimon Hellstrom (son?)

Aliases: "Satan"; possibly Marduk Kurios

Base of Operations: His own little Hell dimension

First Appearance: Terror INC#1 (July, 1992)

Powers/Abilities: Beelzeboul is a demon and is not necessarily vulnerable to aging, disease and other generally human weaknesses. He was able to open portals to the normal world, though this seemed to be based around the sacrifice of one of his servants. His strength is enhanced to an undefined range, and he can probably alter hit height and appearance. While on Earth, he took a human form to seduce Cassandra Drakonmegas, but whether he had to take over the body of a human or whether he could simply take the form wasn't explored. Like many of the demons claiming to be Satan, Beelzeboul owned his own Hell dimension, and had a large group of creatures that lived there.

Like any good demon, Beelzeboul enjoys his items of evil power. His wife would often burn such objects when she found them, but he still seemed to be creating some. One of the more prominent items was the Hellfire Gun. This gun was only usable when either he or his son willed it to be so. Originally he gave it to his officer, Neith, but Terror and Hellfire stole it, and it is currently in Hellfire's possession.

SATAN-Real Name: Marduk Kurios

Identity/Class: Demon (class two)

Occupation: Currently unknown;
former ruler of a division of Hell;
posed as the president of Consolidated Electronics.

Group Membership: Formerly the Hell-Lords (Beelzeboul, Hela, Lucifer, Mephisto, Murray, Olivier, Pluto, Satannish, Thog, and presumably Ahpuch, Eriskegal, Seth, Yama);
the Four, Hell, Incorporated; Satan (see comments), Six-Fingered Hand

Affiliations: Daimon Hellstrom imposter (pawn), Chapel of Dresden, Joshua Crow, Mephisto, Gabriel Rosetti, Satannish, Soulfire, Souls of the Damned (and millions of others unnamed), Thog;
formerly ruled a legion of demons (including Agathon, Allatou, Baphomet, Basilisk, Belial, Dame Aramanthe, Dansker, Nicholis Eblis, Exiter, Dryminextes, Hellstrom imposter, Inanna, Kthara, Maledril, Nergal, Nightbeast, Pazuzu, Sammael, Somnambulist, Zahgurim, Zannarth, chess demon);
formerly Brimstone (Jason Broderick, Wally Marcus, Dickie, Stix)
possibly the Lords of the Splinter-Realms (Dormammu, D'Spayre, Haemovore Kings of the Outer Dark, Hedron the Faceted, High Seers of Nox, Brutus Klor, Malevolence/King of Pain, Molgotha, the Muranai, Phemous, Pluto, Siffror of the Lifeless, Skarabrous the Stalker, Thog, Umar, Viliven+ thousands)
worshipped by Ambassat, Black School, Church of the Dark Father, Church of Lucifer, Anton Devine and others

Enemies: Armaziel and the forces of Heaven, Asura, Rich Corbett, Defenders, Harry Gotham, Hellcat, Hellstorm, Michael Heron, Lavoisin, Stephen Loss, N'Garai, Possessor, Gabriel Rosetti, Tetragrammaton;
others not listed (see comments)

Known Relatives: Victoria Wingate Hellstrom (former wife), Daimon Hellstrom/Hellstrom/Son of Satan (son), Satana (daughter);
Presumably reborn as child of Lavoisin and Hellstorm

Aliases: Adversary, Angel of Light, B.L. Zeebub, Black Halo, the Devil, Nicholis Eblis, Simon Garth (imposter), Miles Gorney, Lord of Darkness, Lord of the Flies, Lord of Lies, Lou, Master, Prince of Darkness, Prince of Hell, Satan, the Tempter, Trachos, possibly Lucifer and/or Witch Woman (see comments)

Base of Operations: Currently unknown;
formerly a realm of Hell;
formerly Fire Lake, in New England

First Appearance: (as Satan): Marvel Spotlight I#13 (January, 1974)
(Satan named as Marduk Kurios): Hellstorm#16 (July, 1994)

Powers: Marduk is an immensely powerful demon, as would befit a ruler of Hell. on par with the likes of Mephisto, Satannish, and Thog. His powers were much greater within his own realm of Hell, than on Earth, or in other realms.

Since being dethroned by Hellstorm, his powers are markedly reduced, though their limits remain unknown.

and still noone takes any notice because they can see the truth.

Ive said what i had to say on the whole Phoenix thing and ive made well supported arguments. You have yet to do so. You thought the latest bio was a retcon and so made a spite thread only to have posters turn it around into something which merely reaffirmed the jist of what ive been saying all along.

As per usual with nothing left to say youve resorted to spamming a post across the forums. What does that achieve my friend? Be grown up and dont spoil the threads of others with this rubbish.

pic first Beelzeboul

Originally posted by golem370
SATAN-Real Name: Marduk Kurios

Identity/Class: Demon (class two)

Occupation: Currently unknown;
former ruler of a division of Hell;
posed as the president of Consolidated Electronics.

Group Membership: Formerly the Hell-Lords (Beelzeboul, Hela, Lucifer, Mephisto, Murray, Olivier, Pluto, Satannish, Thog, and presumably Ahpuch, Eriskegal, Seth, Yama);
the Four, Hell, Incorporated; Satan (see comments), Six-Fingered Hand

Affiliations: Daimon Hellstrom imposter (pawn), Chapel of Dresden, Joshua Crow, Mephisto, Gabriel Rosetti, Satannish, Soulfire, Souls of the Damned (and millions of others unnamed), Thog;
formerly ruled a legion of demons (including Agathon, Allatou, Baphomet, Basilisk, Belial, Dame Aramanthe, Dansker, Nicholis Eblis, Exiter, Dryminextes, Hellstrom imposter, Inanna, Kthara, Maledril, Nergal, Nightbeast, Pazuzu, Sammael, Somnambulist, Zahgurim, Zannarth, chess demon);
formerly Brimstone (Jason Broderick, Wally Marcus, Dickie, Stix)
possibly the Lords of the Splinter-Realms (Dormammu, D'Spayre, Haemovore Kings of the Outer Dark, Hedron the Faceted, High Seers of Nox, Brutus Klor, Malevolence/King of Pain, Molgotha, the Muranai, Phemous, Pluto, Siffror of the Lifeless, Skarabrous the Stalker, Thog, Umar, Viliven+ thousands)
worshipped by Ambassat, Black School, Church of the Dark Father, Church of Lucifer, Anton Devine and others

Enemies: Armaziel and the forces of Heaven, Asura, Rich Corbett, Defenders, Harry Gotham, Hellcat, Hellstorm, Michael Heron, Lavoisin, Stephen Loss, N'Garai, Possessor, Gabriel Rosetti, Tetragrammaton;
others not listed (see comments)

Known Relatives: Victoria Wingate Hellstrom (former wife), Daimon Hellstrom/Hellstrom/Son of Satan (son), Satana (daughter);
Presumably reborn as child of Lavoisin and Hellstorm

Aliases: Adversary, Angel of Light, B.L. Zeebub, Black Halo, the Devil, Nicholis Eblis, Simon Garth (imposter), Miles Gorney, Lord of Darkness, Lord of the Flies, Lord of Lies, Lou, Master, Prince of Darkness, Prince of Hell, Satan, the Tempter, Trachos, possibly Lucifer and/or Witch Woman (see comments)

Base of Operations: Currently unknown;
formerly a realm of Hell;
formerly Fire Lake, in New England

First Appearance: (as Satan): Marvel Spotlight I#13 (January, 1974)
(Satan named as Marduk Kurios): Hellstorm#16 (July, 1994)

Powers: Marduk is an immensely powerful demon, as would befit a ruler of Hell. on par with the likes of Mephisto, Satannish, and Thog. His powers were much greater within his own realm of Hell, than on Earth, or in other realms.

Since being dethroned by Hellstorm, his powers are markedly reduced, though their limits remain unknown.

Golem you need to stop this seriously. What point are you trying to mnake by posting bio after bio. How is it relevant to your thread. It doesnt discredit DC and the role theyve given Yahweh and the brothers in their comic book world.

Forget all the bios. Just state what point youre trying to make and what makes you think that.

and a pic Satan

That there is not a True Satan in Marvel Comics there are numerious Satanic Demons playing Satan.

Originally posted by golem370
That there is not a True Satan in Marvel Comics there are numerious Satanic Demons playing Satan.

That doesnt necessarily show that Golem. All it shows are that there are certain lesser beings who imitate Satan. Marvel tends to avoid direct religious references but merely suggests things through symbolism and parallels. Either way this doesnt say there isnt a Satan in Marvel and what does this have to do with a Yahweh Vs Lucifer match up?

In DC they have made Yahweh their supreme being. Lucifer is his son and the most powerful being in DC after its supreme being.

The Yahweh of Marvel is just a skyfather level being who got defeated by Korvac in a what if. Lucifer wins.

Somebody said that DC based a basic Religious belief

Originally posted by golem370
Somebody said that DC based a basic Religious belief

I cant tell from your wording what exactly youre trying to say.

But seriously forget this line of action. You need to accept that Yahweh is DC's chosen supreme being.

Marvels is TOAA.

As the two multiverses acknowledge each other its likely that TOAA and Yahweh are both aspects of a single omniversal being.

Either way like i said before Marvel hasnt taken an overly religious theme for their supreme being and you cant try and discredit Lucifer or Yahweh of DC by pointing out minor entities in Marvel patterned after figures found in judeo/christian religion

I Don't have to believe he's anything more then it's the same Yahweh God just more powerful in DC

Originally posted by golem370
I Don't have to believe he's anything more then it's the same Yahweh God just more powerful in DC

No Golem dont you see how that doesnt make sense. He is NOT the same because if he was he would be the supreme being. He is NOT.

He is a skyfather level being who patterns himself on judeo/christian religion, just like Mephisto patterns himself on Satan without actually being Satan as stated in his bio.

The supreme being of DC is Yahweh the supreme being of Marvel is TOAA.

Just because his name is Yahweh does not mean he is the same being as DC's but less powerful. Thats awful logic.

No you don't Understand If in fact DC is based on judeo/christian religion then there are infact the same Being from different realities. He is the judeo/christian religion Deity in Marvel just like the Greeks believe in Zeus and just like Norse believe in Odin.

GS, you need to stop your crusade to spread illumination and understanding (at least in this thread). Some things are too dense for it.

Yahweh DC is more powerful than TOAA Marvel. As TOAA has been shown to be fallible and not all powerful, where-as Yahweh has not shown this weakness.
I would more compare TOAA to The Presence, before I would Yahweh. Which is considered biblical God INSIDE of DC comics, however we know all these aspects of God are aspects of Yahweh. In Marvel, we have not seen a counterpart. The Presence is the highest ranking thing inside of creation, Yahweh is the creator of creation, possilibity, etc.
It'd tough to explain, but a few will understand I think.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
and still noone takes any notice because they can see the truth.

Ive said what i had to say on the whole Phoenix thing and ive made well supported arguments. You have yet to do so. You thought the latest bio was a retcon and so made a spite thread only to have posters turn it around into something which merely reaffirmed the jist of what ive been saying all along.

As per usual with nothing left to say youve resorted to spamming a post across the forums. What does that achieve my friend? Be grown up and dont spoil the threads of others with this rubbish.

You really haven't GS you have given opinon based on extrapolation, not argument based on reason.

Its a little sad you don't know the difference - nothing empirical here

no one turned anything round

You left the forum for 2 weeks to regroup

but you came back with the same rhetoric its still opinion just with far less to extrapolate your rubbish from than before.

Another Godlike being in DC is The Infinite, i don't believe anyone has ever talked to The Infinite. Also heard Marvel has a being named the Infinite Being, could these 2 be the same being??

Nope, DC's Infinite is a singular entitiy, Marvel has a race called the infinites............

And could we please not mock religion in theese forums ??!

Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh DC is more powerful than TOAA Marvel. As TOAA has been shown to be fallible and not all powerful, where-as Yahweh has not shown this weakness.
I would more compare TOAA to The Presence, before I would Yahweh. Which is considered biblical God INSIDE of DC comics, however we know all these aspects of God are aspects of Yahweh. In Marvel, we have not seen a counterpart. The Presence is the highest ranking thing inside of creation, Yahweh is the creator of creation, possilibity, etc.
It'd tough to explain, but a few will understand I think.

Where and how has TOAA been shown to be fallible? I dont recall this and i find it hard to believe considering its never appeared in comics and never even been seen by its agent The Living Tribunal.

With such things in mind as far as we know TOAA is the Unmanifest God and therefore would equate to Yahweh.

Marvels Crown would equate to The Presence. By the real life principles theyre based on they are actually the same thing anyway.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
You really haven't GS you have given opinon based on extrapolation, not argument based on reason.

Its a little sad you don't know the difference - nothing empirical here

no one turned anything round

You left the forum for 2 weeks to regroup

but you came back with the same rhetoric its still opinion just with far less to extrapolate your rubbish from than before.

My interpretation is based on on panel events and it incorporates the key points of the latest Phoenix bio.

You disagree with it for the sake of disagreeing. Not once in the last 6 months have you been able to come up with a sufficient counter or source which resulted in its discreditation. Isnt that telling you something my friend?

Yes you've been at the helm of another flop attempt but is this spamming really necessary?

If you wish to vent your frustration then do so in a thread of your own making. Not in one where where adults are conversing and couldnt care less for the tantrums of a grown man.

Originally posted by sylvanelf
GS, you need to stop your crusade to spread illumination and understanding (at least in this thread). Some things are too dense for it.

Originally posted by Psycho Ninja


And could we please not mock religion in theese forums ??!

Originally posted by Psycho Ninja


Who's this directed at?

ehmm....that....g..0....lmem... dude !!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where and how has TOAA been shown to be fallible? I dont recall this and i find it hard to believe considering its never appeared in comics and never even been seen by its agent The Living Tribunal.

With such things in mind as far as we know TOAA is the Unmanifest God and therefore would equate to Yahweh.

Marvels Crown would equate to The Presence. By the real life principles theyre based on they are actually the same thing anyway. Someone mentioned him being drained of power for a period of time after creating the universe-- That's a feat more on par with Spectre than Yahweh. Likewise Lucifer did it with ease.
Another thing, is that he needed Thanos to fix the universe because he would have died doing it.
Both show weakness and being fallible.
Yahweh has shown nothing of weakness.
Presence is what would by most standards be consider God in the real life. A force in heaven. The first piece of Yahweh born into creation which created all aspects of creation, such as Heaven, Hell, the Multiverse, life and possibility.

Originally posted by Juntai
Someone mentioned him being drained of power for a period of time after creating the universe-- That's a feat more on par with Spectre than Yahweh. Likewise Lucifer did it with ease.
Another thing, is that he needed Thanos to fix the universe because he would have died doing it.
Both show weakness and being fallible.
Yahweh has shown nothing of weakness.
Presence is what would by most standards be consider God in the real life. A force in heaven. The first piece of Yahweh born into creation which created all aspects of creation, such as Heaven, Hell, the Multiverse, life and possibility.

All you've said about TOAA is untrue and this is a prime example of why you should always take unsupported forum talk at face value only. TOAA hasnt been seen on panel he hasnt even been seen by his agents.

He never made creation and was drained of power. Thats absolute rubbish.

HOTU wasnt conclusively gods power. It was a power source Thanos tapped into and he speculated on its origins in The End. The origins of the power were never revealed.

Also if youve read Lucifer 68 you'll find Yahweh unsure of what decision to make on the future of his creation therefore he consults both Elaine Belloc and Lilith. Does that sound like an omniscient supreme being to you? Based on that Yahweh could be another godhead and there could even greater being whom Yahweh is just an aspect of. The fact that the two multiverses acknowledge each other suggests that is the case.

Either way the comments you made on TOAA stemmed from hearsay and were incorrect. Now ive brought to the table info that brings into question Yahwehs status, Feel free to ask for Lucifer scans.

As usual GS tries to rubbish another respected member "Juntai" this time to validate his Crusade.

So sad.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
As usual GS tries to rubbish another respected member "Juntai" this time to validate his Crusade.

So sad.

How am i rubbishing him. Me and J are friends. That doesnt mean we always have to agree does it?

What crusade would you be referring to old man? Another fabrication.

In Lucifer 68, Yahweh seems apathetic about creation as a whole. And decides to have a couple of his creations debate why it should stay or go. Where is the weakness?

I don't need scans I have the issue.


Likewise the Presence has never been seen on panel, because he is as far as the multiverse is concerned-- DC's God. This is why I see TOAA as on par with Presence.. Apperently this is also an internet wide phenomenon, judging by a simple Google search. I believe you've even claimed as such in many a previous thread, but now try to place it on par with an even higher entity.


Marvel may indeed have a Yahweh-esque being, but I don't believe we've seen or heard of it yet.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Lucifer 68, Yahweh seems apathetic about creation as a whole. And decides to have a couple of his creations debate why it should stay or go. Where is the weakness?

I don't need scans I have the issue.


Likewise the Presence has never been seen on panel, because he is as far as the multiverse is concerned-- DC's God. This is why I see TOAA as on par with Presence.. Apperently this is also an internet wide phenomenon, judging by a simple Google search. I believe you've even claimed as such in many a previous thread, but now try to place it on par with an even higher entity.


Marvel may indeed have a Yahweh-esque being, but I don't believe we've seen or heard of it yet.

Presence has been represented on panel by the Primum Mobile. The throne room in the Silver City is his place of power. He is not a physical being but he has been represented on panel as aforementioned.

Presence is the equivalent of Marvels Crown. Not TOAA. Keter means Crown or Presence and is represented in creation via The Primum Mobile (DC's choice) or the Big Bang/Phoenix (Marvels choice). By definition they are one and the same.

Internet searches/fansites do not equate conclusive evidence. They know just as much as us. Thats why its best to stick to on panel evidence and official sources.

TOAA is more akin to the Unmanifest. Thats also what i believed Yahweh to be but the fact that a minor demon from hell made a machine which gave him access to Yahwehs thoughts suggests that that is not the case. (Issue 32 and 38+) as does Yahweh making contact with Ellaine and Lilith and conversing with them and asking their opinions on what course of action he should take.

Either way there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that TOAA is anything but the Unmanifest. You have the Crown in Marvel creation and you have Phoenix descending from the Crown into creation as Tiphereth yet beyond Phoenix and LT you have TOAA.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Presence has been represented on panel by the Primum Mobile. The throne room in the Silver City is his place of power. He is not a physical being but he has been represented on panel as aforementioned.

Presence is the equivalent of Marvels Crown. Not TOAA. Keter means Crown or Presence and is represented in creation via The Primum Mobile (DC's choice) or the Big Bang/Phoenix (Marvels choice). By definition they are one and the same.

Internet searches/fansites do not equate conclusive evidence. They know just as much as us. Thats why its best to stick to on panel evidence and official sources.

TOAA is more akin to the Unmanifest. Thats also what i believed Yahweh to be but the fact that a minor demon from hell made a machine which gave him access to Yahwehs thoughts suggests that that is not the case. (Issue 32 and 38+) as does Yahweh making contact with Ellaine and Lilith and conversing with them and asking their opinions on what course of action he should take.

Either way there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that TOAA is anything but the Unmanifest. You have the Crown in Marvel creation and you have Phoenix descending from the Crown into creation as Tiphereth yet beyond Phoenix and LT you have TOAA. And LT is accepted as Marvel's counterpart to The Spectre, though Spectre due to having his own book has higher highs and lower lows than LT does. Through his years, Spectre generally was depicted as decended from The Presence, which is the God in DC Comics, The Presence said "Let there be light." and there was light, and reality came to be. Yahweh, on the other scope, had to create creation for this possibility to even exist. There is a complete lack of physical evidence to really support either case, but Spectre and LT acting for their respective Powers-That-Be as "Guardians of the Multiverse", gives me the impressive of Presence = TOAA. And Presence is only a fraction of Yahweh's whole.

Anyways dude, I'm off to bed, I gotta wake up later in the afternoon to get this weeks load of comics.

Originally posted by Juntai
And LT is accepted as Marvel's counterpart to The Spectre, though Spectre due to having his own book has higher highs and lower lows than LT does. Through his years, Spectre generally was depicted as decended from The Presence, which is the God in DC Comics, The Presence said "Let there be light." and there was light, and reality came to be. Yahweh, on the other scope, had to create creation for this possibility to even exist. There is a complete lack of physical evidence to really support either case, but Spectre and LT acting for their respective Powers-That-Be as "Guardians of the Multiverse", gives me the impressive of Presence = TOAA. And Presence is only a fraction of Yahweh's whole.

So basically your only basis for saying that TOAA equals Presence and not Yahweh is because Lt said he serves TOAA?

Thats poor Juntai especially when by definition the Crown equals the Presence and like you said the Presence aspect created reality so to did the Crown through the BigBang/Phoenix. Then beyond the Crown you have TOAA who by all accounts is Marvels supreme being.

On top of that scattered through Lucifer especially from 38 onwards you have Lucifer and Michael talking of how they serve Yahweh, how Yahwehs their father completely bypassing Presence. So it works both ways my friend. Between Lt and TOAA you have the Crown just like between the brothers and Yahweh you have Presence.

Originally posted by Juntai
Anyways dude, I'm off to bed, I gotta wake up later in the afternoon to get this weeks load of comics.


Cool catch u on msn or or something. Later.

I see u still hovering up there. Come on fire away lol

Indeed there is:

http://members.shaw.ca/gorillagallery/myweb2/bobo1.jpg

Yahweh is omniscient, the only reason he doesn't really know whats going on in creation is because he cut himself off from knowing (which even Yahweh says is very hard to do). But its still fact that everything in creation is STILL under The Great Plan of his. So he doesn't really need to know whats going on because he already knows whats going to happen anyway. He left a window open for something to happen that he might not know (but still that follows the Great Plan). In 68 Yahweh doesn't need his Throne to return to Creation, he never says "i need my throne to return" he can return whenever he wants! He's holding creation in his hand.

Could Yahweh and The Infinite be the same being??? and The Presence and TOAA(The Source) be the greatest aspects of him in it?? seems correct.

Originally posted by kevdude


Could Yahweh and The Infinite be the same being??? and The Presence and TOAA(The Source) be the greatest aspects of him in it?? seems correct.

We've already been through this Kev. Why do you keep equating TOAA to the Source when theres no on panel evidence that supports that at all.

The Phoenix Force was equated to the Source TOAA is the Unmanifest so he would equate to Yahweh.

<<Thats poor Juntai especially when by definition the Crown equals the Presence and like you said the Presence aspect created reality so to did the Crown through the BigBang/Phoenix.>>

whoa.

now you're equating the pf with the presence? or are you now saying the crown itself is yet another entity? i thought you equated in our earlier discussion the crown with the whitehot room? now you're saying the crown (not toaa) started things off via the pf?

but then wasn't the CROWN also 'created', and wouldn't that mean that the pf would have been used PRIOR to the crown's creation because the crown IS seperate from toaa?? or did toaa create the crown WITHOUT pf then decided it needed pf to create the multiverse???

criminy.

the easy question -- lucifer demolishes that silly yahweh entity in that what if issue. i recall seeing that image (and it was reminiscent of jesus) and thinking it was a joke of some sort and done in poor taste.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So basically your only basis for saying that TOAA equals Presence and not Yahweh is because Lt said he serves TOAA?

Thats poor Juntai especially when by definition the Crown equals the Presence and like you said the Presence aspect created reality so to did the Crown through the BigBang/Phoenix. Then beyond the Crown you have TOAA who by all accounts is Marvels supreme being.

On top of that scattered through Lucifer especially from 38 onwards you have Lucifer and Michael talking of how they serve Yahweh, how Yahwehs their father completely bypassing Presence. So it works both ways my friend. Between Lt and TOAA you have the Crown just like between the brothers and Yahweh you have Presence. And in DC Spectre created the Big Bang, started the universe, but the Presence existed before that. The Presence is the first aspect of creation. There seems to be no way of proving that The Crown is even above The Spectre by this theory. Crown created Pheonix/Big Bang, Spectre created Big Bang. Crown seems to be a piece of God.. Spectre is a piece of God. See what I'm saying now? This can be leaned any way it wants to.
There is still a complete lack of evidence to put TOAA beyond anything but The Presence besides your theory of never having seen either one -- The Unmanifest, when we've not actually seen the Presence itself, only manifest it's power in various comics such as Paradise Lost when it protected the JLA and the Angels by making them all invulnerable.


Although, not cannon it is known that the Brothers in Marvel vs DC before the idea being thrown out, were originally supposed to The Presence and The One Above All. Do some research on it.

But then again The Presence has been used as another name for Yahweh in religion. God is light, holy and everything good. Yahweh even said he was the Architect of the Universe, he is the God of this Universe as we know it today. Yahweh(the Presence) is 1 of many Gods in the Universe, he is just the most powerful and was retconned right before time began so he could create a Universe that he could rule.

The Source sits right outside of creation, watching everything. anyone who really thinks about the meaning The One Above All, it should seem they are talking about The Source, it is TOAA without saying it. the Phoenix Force gets its power from The Source, thats it only! PF is not the Source in another form, much like The Presence(Yahweh) powers others but they are not him.

The Infinite lays even beyond The Source, nobody I believe has ever talked to The Infinite, only his hand has been seen at the beginning of time.

Here is a few sites showing the formation of the complete universe (it would also have to somehow be in line with Marvel since they have done crossovers together, meaning Marvel would HAVE to agree with everything DC has done and vic versa DC would have to agree with everything Marvel has done).

http://dcu.smartmemes.com/DCTL_1_TL.html
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php

This is just 1 of a few ideas of how DC could have it set up. Another is Yahweh and The Infinite being the same being (which probably is true) and YHWH does sit on the Throne, when Elaine was thinking about sitting on YHWH's Throne the Angels around them argued that nobody should sit on his Throne but God only! it is also true The First of the Fallen saw past the light and saw God himself, this is 1 of the reasons he was thrown out of Heaven. When The Beast was awakened he went to Heaven to ask God why he was here, The Presence got in the way and tried to destroy each other. The Beast knew God could tell him why he was here (he was created to be a balance for God).

OH my ................... (I dont even know what name to say)

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Thats poor Juntai especially when by definition the Crown equals the Presence and like you said the Presence aspect created reality so to did the Crown through the BigBang/Phoenix.>>

whoa.

now you're equating the pf with the presence? or are you now saying the crown itself is yet another entity? i thought you equated in our earlier discussion the crown with the whitehot room? now you're saying the crown (not toaa) started things off via the pf?

but then wasn't the CROWN also 'created', and wouldn't that mean that the pf would have been used PRIOR to the crown's creation because the crown IS seperate from toaa?? or did toaa create the crown WITHOUT pf then decided it needed pf to create the multiverse???

criminy.


See this is why you should pay attention when i write my essays Leo ive gone over this many times before in the past. Something i dont intend to do again anytime soon lol.

Right now all i can suggest is that you google "Sephiroth" "Keter" (The Crown/Phoenix consciousness) and "Tiphereth" (Phoenix in creation) and you will find all the answers you need.

Originally posted by Juntai
And in DC Spectre created the Big Bang, started the universe, but the Presence existed before that. The Presence is the first aspect of creation. There seems to be no way of proving that The Crown is even above The Spectre by this theory. Crown created Pheonix/Big Bang, Spectre created Big Bang. Crown seems to be a piece of God.. Spectre is a piece of God. See what I'm saying now? This can be leaned any way it wants to.

Thats more awful logic J. Allow me to explain.

For a start the Spectre never created the Big Bang. Thats your misinterpretation/misunderstanding or a twisted account of what actually happened. Id like to believe the former but either way the result was the same.

The first point in creation is the Presence. From that descended the Source/The Big Bang which resulted in the original DC universe.

Kronas experiment in which he gazed into the dawn of time to see the origin of creation caused an energy backlash which splintered the original universe into a multiverse.

The heroes and Anti M travelled back in time to the dawn of creation before that happened. Spectre and AM started their battle. When Krona carried out his experiment (therefore unwittingly shattering the universe into a multiverse ) there was a flash of light engulfing all of them. Next issue we found out that the Spectre had held on to the shards of reality helping the original universe to remain intact which meant the multiverse never existed.

How is that creating the Big Bang my friend? It really isnt. Yeah he held together reality which is a good feat but how on earth did you interpret that Spectre created the Big Bang/Source. Thats absurd. On top of that the Big Bang had already occurred which is why the heroes were fighting it out on a planet.

With all that out of the way lets start again.

By definition the Crown and Presence are the same thing. By the real life principles that they are both based on they are the same thing for their respective comic book companies. They are both the first point in creation, the origin point. From the Crown came the Big Bang/Phoenix Force which represents it , just like in DC The Source/Big Bang/ is the Presence within creation. All of them are aspects of their supreme beings Marvels TOAA and Dc's Yahweh.

Originally posted by Juntai
There is still a complete lack of evidence to put TOAA beyond anything but The Presence besides your theory of never having seen either one -- The Unmanifest, when we've not actually seen the Presence itself, only manifest it's power in various comics such as Paradise Lost when it protected the JLA and the Angels by making them all invulnerable.

The Crowns very existence in Marvel is what equates TOAA to Yahweh. There has been no mention of any other being who could be Marvels supreme being and TOAA is widely regarded as being so. If it wasnt for the recent introduction of the Crown then you'd have a point. But currently that isnt the case. By definition they (Crown and Presence) are one and the same and by on panel representations they seem to be the same.

Of course the Presence hasnt been physically seen on panel. As stated on panel it is not a physical being however it is represented in creation by the Primum Mobile. Just like the Crown is represented in creation by the Phoenix Force manifestation/Big Bang. Both being symbols of Keter which translates as Crown and Presence. In fact isnt the Source itself th eenergies of creation, the Big Bang? :

http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php

That would explain why the Phoenix and The Source have been represented as one and the same in a crossover which only further strengthens my case.


Originally posted by Juntai
Although, not cannon it is known that the Brothers in Marvel vs DC before the idea being thrown out, were originally supposed to The Presence and The One Above All. Do some research on it.

You got that right. It is NOT canon. The idea was scrapped for unknown reasons. As such it would be most naive to read into it.

Originally posted by kevdude
But then again The Presence has been used as another name for Yahweh in religion. God is light, holy and everything good. Yahweh even said he was the Architect of the Universe, he is the God of this Universe as we know it today. Yahweh(the Presence) is 1 of many Gods in the Universe, he is just the most powerful and was retconned right before time began so he could create a Universe that he could rule.

Presence is an aspect of Yahweh so its perfectly understandable why in the comic that people would refer to things Presence is responsible for as things Yahweh has done. They are one and the same.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Source sits right outside of creation, watching everything. anyone who really thinks about the meaning The One Above All, it should seem they are talking about The Source, it is TOAA without saying it. the Phoenix Force gets its power from The Source, thats it only! PF is not the Source in another form, much like The Presence(Yahweh) powers others but they are not him.

More awful logic. So basically your only basis for saying that TOAA is Marvels Source is because The Source sits on top of creation and TOAA is called TOAA. Get out of here Kev LOL.

The Source by role and on panel representation has been shown to equate to the Phoenix Force. They are both the energies of creation for their respective companies, from them all life springs in their comic book worlds and it was suggested they were one and the same on panel in crossover.(A Dark Phoenix shard was brought into being by the energies of the Source) Just like Phoenix represents the Crown, The Source represents the Presence they are one and the same.


Originally posted by kevdude
Here is a few sites showing the formation of the complete universe (it would also have to somehow be in line with Marvel since they have done crossovers together, meaning Marvel would HAVE to agree with everything DC has done and vic versa DC would have to agree with everything Marvel has done).

Not necessarily so. Crossovers are cash machines the writers really dont pay much mind to their respective companies continuity and most crossovers arent acknowledged as canon anyway. Youre looking too much into it. Some crossovers however have been acknowledged and all that indicates is that each companies supreme being is likely an aspect themselves of an omniversal supreme entity.



Originally posted by kevdude
This is just 1 of a few ideas of how DC could have it set up. Another is Yahweh and The Infinite being the same being (which probably is true) and YHWH does sit on the Throne, when Elaine was thinking about sitting on YHWH's Throne the Angels around them argued that nobody should sit on his Throne but God only! it is also true The First of the Fallen saw past the light and saw God himself, this is 1 of the reasons he was thrown out of Heaven. When The Beast was awakened he went to Heaven to ask God why he was here, The Presence got in the way and tried to destroy each other. The Beast knew God could tell him why he was here (he was created to be a balance for God).

Why are you telling me this for? What relevance does this have? Have you thought the angels could have been speaking figuratively. Have you actually seen Presence sitting on the throne in person? No you have NOT. Why? Because the Presence isnt a physical being, he is merely represented by the Primum Mobile its his seat of power where is presence is felt and can be consulted. Thats all my friend. Thats all stated on panel. I believe Juntai or someone like that had the scans.

Youre taking this way off topic Kev. To sumit up. By role and on panel representation Phoenix and the Source are the same for their respective comic companies as was suggested by the crossover and by the fact that they are both the energies of creation from which all life derives from. They are both the Big Bangs.

By definition the Crown and the Presence are one and the same and their representations support this. On top of that they are both the first points of creation and they are both unseen powers represented in creation by the symbols of Keter (The Primum mobile and the Big Bang). They both are served by the seraphim (The Phoenix avatars of the Crown in Marvel).

TOAA by all accounts is Marvels supreme being and has never been represented or seen on panel not even by his agent LT. With the introduction of the Crown its quite clear that it is the Unmanifest just like Yahweh is within DC.

Either way the argument that TOAA is the Source is completely unsupported on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats more awful logic J. Allow me to explain.

For a start the Spectre never created the Big Bang. Thats your misinterpretation/misunderstanding or a twisted account of what actually happened. Id like to believe the former but either way the result was the same.

The first point in creation is the Presence. From that descended the Source/The Big Bang which resulted in the original DC universe.

Kronas experiment in which he gazed into the dawn of time to see the origin of creation caused an energy backlash which splintered the original universe into a multiverse.

The heroes and Anti M travelled back in time to the dawn of creation before that happened. Spectre and AM started their battle. When Krona carried out his experiment (therefore unwittingly shattering the universe into a multiverse ) there was a flash of light engulfing all of them. Next issue we found out that the Spectre had held on to the shards of reality helping the original universe to remain intact which meant the multiverse never existed.

How is that creating the Big Bang my friend? It really isnt. Yeah he held together reality which is a good feat but how on earth did you interpret that Spectre created the Big Bang/Source. Thats absurd. On top of that the Big Bang had already occurred which is why the heroes were fighting it out on a planet.

With all that out of the way lets start again.

By definition the Crown and Presence are the same thing. By the real life principles that they are both based on they are the same thing for their respective comic book companies. They are both the first point in creation, the origin point. From the Crown came the Big Bang/Phoenix Force which represents it , just like in DC The Source/Big Bang/ is the Presence within creation. All of them are aspects of their supreme beings Marvels TOAA and Dc's Yahweh.



The Crowns very existence in Marvel is what equates TOAA to Yahweh. There has been no mention of any other being who could be Marvels supreme being and TOAA is widely regarded as being so. If it wasnt for the recent introduction of the Crown then you'd have a point. But currently that isnt the case. By definition they (Crown and Presence) are one and the same and by on panel representations they seem to be the same.

Of course the Presence hasnt been physically seen on panel. As stated on panel it is not a physical being however it is represented in creation by the Primum Mobile. Just like the Crown is represented in creation by the Phoenix Force manifestation/Big Bang. Both being symbols of Keter which translates as Crown and Presence. In fact isnt the Source itself th eenergies of creation, the Big Bang? :

http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php

That would explain why the Phoenix and The Source have been represented as one and the same in a crossover which only further strengthens my case.




You got that right. It is NOT canon. The idea was scrapped for unknown reasons. As such it would be most naive to read into it. You still have a complete lack of evidence you're trying to pass off as actual fact, I'm telling MY OPINION, on the ranks. As there is completely little basing either of our things in fact, I'm just discussing my ideas with you so don't try to take the high ground like you're right and I'm wrong, when it's simply not the case.

However it is fact that Spectre created the DCU as it is, though not the PREVIOUS Multiverse in which The Presence said "Let there be light.". It's even in his secret files on DCcomics.com that he ignited the universe. As opposed the dcuguide.com site you're taking facts from, I'm taking from the COMPANY'S page.

As far as the DC seems to go, Yahweh created the possibility of creation and creation itself . He manifested a piece of his power into it, identified as The Presence, the Presence is the Universe's "God", creator of Heaven and Hell, Azmodel recognized this, Satan in Spectre's comics recognized it as such, as did Neron in Paradise Lost. However, the BIG BANG which made the physical universe was still not created, it did not come until the wheels of the universal forces of good/evil, law/chaos already had begun to turn, heaven and hell clashed, and Spectre having moved to the dawn of time... created the universe.

Even in Zero Hour, Spectre remade the Big Bang AGAIN, through it was immediately reversed pages later when they replaced Hal after Spectre defeated him with Hal before he erased everything. It definately shows the scope of his power though.

The point of me telling this of Spectre is just to show...-- there's really no evidence putting The Crown even above Spectre in terms of importance or power, let alone equating the all encompassing Presence.


And yes, it was a non canon comic, as obviously they didn't want it to be God vs God, they opted for a different route. But the writers themselves intended it to be such, and the DC/Marvel comics were done by some of the most respected memebers of the comics community. But hey, it was just something I was throwing out, don't get ate up over it.

Interesting conversation btw.

Originally posted by kevdude
But then again The Presence has been used as another name for Yahweh in religion. God is light, holy and everything good. Yahweh even said he was the Architect of the Universe, he is the God of this Universe as we know it today. Yahweh(the Presence) is 1 of many Gods in the Universe, he is just the most powerful and was retconned right before time began so he could create a Universe that he could rule.

The Source sits right outside of creation, watching everything. anyone who really thinks about the meaning The One Above All, it should seem they are talking about The Source, it is TOAA without saying it. the Phoenix Force gets its power from The Source, thats it only! PF is not the Source in another form, much like The Presence(Yahweh) powers others but they are not him.

The Infinite lays even beyond The Source, nobody I believe has ever talked to The Infinite, only his hand has been seen at the beginning of time.

Here is a few sites showing the formation of the complete universe (it would also have to somehow be in line with Marvel since they have done crossovers together, meaning Marvel would HAVE to agree with everything DC has done and vic versa DC would have to agree with everything Marvel has done).

http://dcu.smartmemes.com/DCTL_1_TL.html
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php

This is just 1 of a few ideas of how DC could have it set up. Another is Yahweh and The Infinite being the same being (which probably is true) and YHWH does sit on the Throne, when Elaine was thinking about sitting on YHWH's Throne the Angels around them argued that nobody should sit on his Throne but God only! it is also true The First of the Fallen saw past the light and saw God himself, this is 1 of the reasons he was thrown out of Heaven. When The Beast was awakened he went to Heaven to ask God why he was here, The Presence got in the way and tried to destroy each other. The Beast knew God could tell him why he was here (he was created to be a balance for God). Interesting post man. Keep in this thread, another added imput is always appreciated, not many can keep up once we delve this far into the comic-dom, lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
You still have a complete lack of evidence you're trying to pass off as actual fact, I'm telling MY OPINION, on the ranks. As there is completely little basing either of our things in fact, I'm just discussing my ideas with you so don't try to take the high ground like you're right and I'm wrong, when it's simply not the case.

Im just stating my opinion on the matter as well. Thats all any of us are doing on these forums. Some peoples opinions however just happen to be better supported on panel.

Originally posted by Juntai
However it is fact that Spectre created the DCU as it is, though not the PREVIOUS Multiverse in which The Presence said "Let there be light.". It's even in his secret files on DCcomics.com that he ignited the universe. As opposed the dcuguide.com site you're taking facts from, I'm taking from the COMPANY'S page.

You see J youre backtacking here. This isnt what you originally said. You said the Spectre created the Big Bang. After i highlighted the errors in your line of thinking youre now downsizing the feat to say Spectre is responsible for the DC universe being in its present state which is true. Did Spectre create the universe? NO. Spectre kept the original universe in the form Presence created it intact. He held on to the reality splintered by Krona and put it back together. That isnt creating the universe tahts saving it. Which is also what DC say on their official site:

http://www.dccomics.com/secret_files/pdfs/the_spectre.pdf

Cant see any mention of Spectre igniting creation. But then we all make mistakes. No worries.

Originally posted by Juntai
However, the BIG BANG which made the physical universe was still not created, it did not come until the wheels of the universal forces of good/evil, law/chaos already had begun to turn, heaven and hell clashed, and Spectre having moved to the dawn of time... created the universe.

Nope. Incorrect. The universe was in its early stages. The Big Bang had already happened. The heroes went to the dawn of creation not the pre creation void. As stated in the pages of Crisis the multiverse was formed after Krona gazed into the past to see the universe being formed. Spectres actions kept Yahwehs creation intact in its original form. Spectre didnt create the universe he is however responsible for its current form. That also explains why the heroes were fighting it out on a planet. Or do you suppose it was created off panel merely for the purposes of battle?

Originally posted by Juntai
Even in Zero Hour, Spectre remade the Big Bang AGAIN, through it was immediately reversed pages later when they replaced Hal after Spectre defeated him with Hal before he erased everything. It definately shows the scope of his power though.

The point of me telling this of Spectre is just to show...-- there's really no evidence putting The Crown even above Spectre in terms of importance or power, let alone equating the all encompassing Presence.

The Crown by definition and on panel representation is the same thing as the Presence. They are both aspects of their respective companies supreme beings. The Phoenix equates to the Source and follows on from the first point of creation the Crown. Just like the Presence is the first point of creation and the Source Big/Bang followed on from him. Both the Presence and The Crown are represented on panel by the symbols of Keter and on panel they have been presented in teh same role.

Youve changed your tune in the last few weeks J. I always thought you beyond my aspect of gods better than yours arguments.


Originally posted by Juntai
And yes, it was a non canon comic

Cool. Glad you acknowledge that. On top of that the idea you laid on the table was scrapped therefore it has no bearing on this debate.

I don't have time to tackle the rest of it there, but, look down the the little white box at the bottom, towards the middle-right.
It clearly says Anti Monitor was DESTROYING CREATION, as a whole, not just the multiverse. And it clearly says Spectre ignited the universe as well.

It's not a matter of my Gods better than your Gods arguement. It's a discussion. I've clearly proven that The Crown seems to no higher on the food chain than Spectre let alone The Presence, which is your own "My Gods better than yours" claim when trying to debase some of the previous posters in the thread's own opinions. And acting as if you've grounded it in fact. I said from the start, there's no proving either case, I was just giving my take.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't have time to tackle the rest of it there, but, look down the the little white box at the bottom, towards the middle-right.
It clearly says Anti Monitor was DESTROYING CREATION, as a whole, not just the multiverse. And it clearly says Spectre ignited the universe as well.

Ive read it. It says he reignites the universe after Kronas actions put an end to it. That fits in perfectly with what ive been saying. He started it up again, he never created the universe and certainly wasnt responsible for the Big Bang.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's not a matter of my Gods better than your Gods arguement. It's a discussion. I've clearly proven that The Crown seems to no higher on the food chain than Spectre let alone The Presence, which is your own "My Gods better than yours" claim when trying to debase some of the previous posters in the thread's own opinions. And acting as if you've grounded it in fact. I said from the start, there's no proving either case, I was just giving my take.

But your arguments based on the fact that Spectre created the DC universe which is incorrect. He saved it. You have proved not a thing.

Can i ask what on panel feats the Presence has pulled off or does he not work through the Spectre?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive read it. It says he reignites the universe after Kronas actions put an end to it. That fits in perfectly with what ive been saying. He started it up again, he never created the universe and certainly wasnt responsible for the Big Bang. No, you're NOT reading it. It clearly says and I'm QUOTING "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe." It doesn't say REFORMED, it says REIGNITES. HE -REWROTE- The Presence's creation from it's very beginning. And certainly the guy who built the physical DCU in Current Continuity, certainly started the Big Bang. To think otherwise is kinda dumb.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, you're NOT reading it. It clearly says and I'm QUOTING "Crisis on Infinite Earths: Spectre stops the Anti Monitor from destroying all creation, and reignites the universe." It doesn't say REFORMED, it says REIGNITES. HE -REWROTE- The Presence's creation from it's very beginning. And certainly the guy who built the physical DCU in Current Continuity, certainly started the Big Bang. To think otherwise is kinda dumb.

Kronas experiment shattered the universe, put an end to it making a multiverse. Spectre pulled it back together forming the universe again. Putting it back on track. So yes he did reignite the universe. He started it up again. Can you show me anywhere on panel which states that Spectre generated the Big Bang? I didnt think so.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But your arguments based on the fact that Spectre created the DC universe which is incorrect. He saved it. You have proved not a thing.

Can i ask what on panel feats the Presence has pulled off or does he not work through the Spectre? The Presence is, period, but for a specific feat, he created Heaven Hell and all abstract realms. In Paradise Lost, it intervened personally and made the Heaven side of the battle impervious to any damage the Hellions and Azmodels faction of renegade angels. At also judged and punished Satan according to Hal's run as Spectre and forces it to do tasks it doesn't want to. And Neron also pointed to out to knowing personally what going against the Presence does. But Spectre in current continuity is the creator of the DCUniverse, albeit as an aspect of The Presence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Kronas experiment shattered the universe, put an end to it making a multiverse. Spectre pulled it back together forming the universe again. Putting it back on track. So yes he did reignite the universe. He started it up again. Can you show me anywhere on panel which states that Spectre generated the Big Bang? I didnt think so. He did it effortlessly in Zero Hour, it's certainly not beyond his grasp. That's the main point anyways. That The Crown has no feat above Spectre, let alone being on par with the highest multiversal manifestation there is.. which is a spot reserved in my mind for The One Above All.

Btw; the Big Bang is the igniting, the creation of the universe.
It clearly states Spectre as the being that did this in current contiuity on DC's page, as quoted.
I'm not sure what you consider the Big Bang to be.




I must really go now bro
peace.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Presence is, period, but for a specific feat, he created Heaven Hell and all abstract realms. In Paradise Lost, it intervened personally and made the Heaven side of the battle impervious to any damage the Hellions and Azmodels faction of renegade angels. At also judged and punished Satan according to Hal's run as Spectre and forces it to do tasks it doesn't want to. And Neron also pointed to out to knowing personally what going against the Presence does. But Spectre in current continuity is the creator of the DCUniverse, albeit as an aspect of The Presence.

Ummm and the Phoenix Force has created Marvel creation and represents the Crown so youre quite incorrect im afraid.

In current continuity Spectre is reponsible for the universe in its current form. Krona messed it up and Spectre put it back together again. He got it on the track the Presence had determined. That fits in perfectly. Youre getting caught up on the wording and you arent supported on panel in the slightest.

Originally posted by Juntai
He did it effortlessly in Zero Hour, it's certainly not beyond his grasp. That's the main point anyways. That The Crown has no feat above Spectre, let alone being on par with the highest multiversal manifestation there is.. which is a spot reserved in my mind for The One Above All.

Btw; the Big Bang is the igniting, the creation of the universe.
It clearly states Spectre as the being that did this in current contiuity on DC's page, as quoted.
I'm not sure what you consider the Big Bang to be.

The Crown through the Phoenix Force (which represents it) has done all of this so basically this is just a pointless my aspects better than yours argument as i stated before.

The Big Bang is the igniting of creation, the starting off of creation youre correct. However Presence has started off the universe, Krona shatters reality and Spectre puts it back together that fits in perfectly with the wording and is supported on panel.

Saying Krona shattered reality and then Spectre generated another seperate Big Bang is sheer speculation, wild speculation at that. Spectre just got creation started again. Thats all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
See this is why you should pay attention when i write my essays Leo ive gone over this many times before in the past. Something i dont intend to do again anytime soon lol.

Right now all i can suggest is that you google "Sephiroth" "Keter" (The Crown/Phoenix consciousness) and "Tiphereth" (Phoenix in creation) and you will find all the answers you need.



the funny thing is you expect me or anyone else o follow all your essays on all the various threads on which you post them. i understand exactly what the terms themselves mean and i wrote my own essay once explaining why it doesn't necessarily follow that all those parallels can be drawn.

but you're right in not wanting to rehash. that's best for everyone!

Originally posted by leonidas


the funny thing is you expect me or anyone else o follow all your essays on all the various threads on which you post them. i understand exactly what the terms themselves mean and i wrote my own essay once explaining why it doesn't necessarily follow that all those parallels can be drawn.


I dont expect anyone to read every single essay i write on the subject especially if they are not involved in that specific debate. However i do expect people to acknowledge that i have talked about such subjects in depth before and that if they wish to know my thoughts on such a vast subject again then the forum has a handy thread search function they'll need to make use of.

If you understand what the terms means then its puzzling why you asked the questions you did. References are made, parallels are drawn and a connection is heavily suggested if not actually stated.

and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

Excellent posts Leo.

Originally posted by leonidas
and i already explained that you need to be careful drawing those parallels because they are drawn INCOMPLETE from the sources you are deriving them from. the author did a lot of picking and choosing, electing to use some terms and not others so to view it holistically in kabbalah terms is not a good idea. they do NOT equate because there is too much missing, and other sources have ALSO been pillaged. i've gone through this before as well.

in our previous discussion you'd steered away from the kabbalah angle and stuck to just the white hot room being a place where the pf's 'consciousness' resides. that's fine. there is no need to extrapolate further based on what is a very incomplete model that marvel has presented in this regard.

I hear what youre saying. But Marvel have all but outright declared what Phoenix is. Yes the execution is somewhat of an incomplete model but that does not equate to a non existent connection. A connection has been forged, the Crown the key to all of it has been positioned as a central feature to Marvel creation and Phoenixes relationship to it has been made clear. On top of that Phoenixes role in Marvel has been made integral and the effects of its work and its relationships to the other cosmic powers have been documented.

To admit that a connection has been forged despite the botch job done on it is all thats required.

I dont understand why LT is so readily connected to God when all thats been said is that he works for a being called TOAA. Wheres the calls to end the extrapolation prevalent in his threads?

At least Phoenix is referred to as an aspect of God(Tiphereth) and has a role that befits such a reference. At least Phoenix derives from a power whose name by real life principles is an aspect of God. (The Crown)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I hear what youre saying. But Marvel have all but outright declared what Phoenix is. Yes the execution is somewhat of an incomplete model but that does not equate to a non existent connection. A connection has been forged, the Crown the key to all of it has been positioned as a central feature to Marvel creation and Phoenixes relationship to it has been made clear. On top of that Phoenixes role in Marvel has been made integral and the effects of its work and its relationships to the other cosmic powers have been documented.

To admit that a connection has been forged despite the botch job done on it is all thats required.

I dont understand why LT is so readily connected to God when all thats been said is that he works for a being called TOAA. Wheres the calls to end the extrapolation prevalent in his threads?

At least Phoenix is referred to as an aspect of God(Tiphereth) and has a role that befits such a reference. At least Phoenix derives from a power whose name by real life principles is an aspect of God. (The Crown)

cool. i don't really want to get into a lengthy debate on the merits of kabbalah. i admitted earlier there is (based on your scans) clearly in the minds of certain writers, allusions to kabbalistic entities, but you just gotta watch that the extrapolation isn't inconclusive as marvel's model of it is FAR from complete.

and you raise a good point as regards lt. i've actually wondered why so many associate him with god, as well. for my part, i guess i've always believed that there would likely come a time when a being was shown to be ABOVE toaa. maybe that's where you're headed?

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. i don't really want to get into a lengthy debate on the merits of kabbalah. i admitted earlier there is (based on your scans) clearly in the minds of certain writers, allusions to kabbalistic entities, but you just gotta watch that the extrapolation isn't inconclusive as marvel's model of it is FAR from complete.

and you raise a good point as regards lt. i've actually wondered why so many associate him with god, as well. for my part, i guess i've always believed that there would likely come a time when a being was shown to be ABOVE toaa. maybe that's where you're headed?

It's so true the problem I have is GS wants people to accept his extrapolation as canon, it clearly isn't some of it has merit, some of it does not.

Ive been through this with u before GS, The Source is TOAA. The Living Tribunal is was created by TOAA to keep Gods Will going in the Universe, and to watch over it and make sure its safe. The Living Tribunal is powered by an "unknown force" which goes with saying The Source/TOAA is an unknown being by almost everyone and everything in creation. Most of the beings in DC which The Source creates and empowers is the color yellow, something along the lines the LT is and Phoenix Force is as well.

here is a few sites talking about The Source aka TOAA and its rule in the Universe.
http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/nothing.pdf#search='The%20Source%2C%20%20Keter'
http://www.elimangel.com/keter.htm
In Hal Jordans run in The Spectre, he was asking Metron about why evil/darkness exist, Metron told him "only The Source could answer that, IF it can". The Source/TOAA is an aspect of God and Heaven much like The Presence/The Holy Spirit is. Yahweh/The Infinite are beyond The Source which is as far to Yahweh as anyone can possibly go (without going to The Silver City of course, where his Presence if felt the most in the Universe).

The ONLY thing that predates the Creator "The Presence" in the Universe is The Great Evil Beast, it is his only equal and opposite in the Universe. The Presence/Holy Spirit The Light searches all things, even the mind of God. Yahweh and The Infinite are the same being. the Universe and everything else is really just a Dream that Yahweh himself has dreamed up in a way not to be alone. the dream though is still real or as real as it can be!

Are you keeping up with me GS?? Hope you are

oh and The Spectre gets his powers from The Word, The Word is really the only being that lives in the Light, the Light is within everyone alive but The Word/Jesus is the only being that has remained true to Yahweh/The Presence or any other name u want to call God. He is the only 1 that deserves to be next to God always. The LT does not really have free will, its created in a way to always work in a way that God would want. The Spectre also does not really have free will for he was recreated by The Presence to join The Word in some way and become The Words Wrath.

I do admit those aren't comic sites but they are religious and do show how everything is set up, which DC has modeled there comics after. Gotta fill in the blanks ourselves.

there is only 3 places u can talk to Yahwehs abstracts, 1 in The Silver City in the Tower of the Unendingly High where The Presence is at, 2 in another Tower in the Silver City which The Voice and The Word can be found, and 3 ontop of Creation just rit outside of it if u risk try passing the Source Wall and getting stuck on it and talk to The Source/TOAA.

Again.......... please, religions are divine matters concerning your private self and God divine-self.

Don't mix them with comical logics.......... !!

Read the new Lucifer?
Yahweh handed over creation and left.

Originally posted by kevdude
Ive been through this with u before GS, The Source is TOAA. The Living Tribunal is was created by TOAA to keep Gods Will going in the Universe, and to watch over it and make sure its safe. The Living Tribunal is powered by an "unknown force" which goes with saying The Source/TOAA is an unknown being by almost everyone and everything in creation. Most of the beings in DC which The Source creates and empowers is the color yellow, something along the lines the LT is and Phoenix Force is as well.

here is a few sites talking about The Source aka TOAA and its rule in the Universe.
http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/nothing.pdf#search='The%20Source%2C%20%20Keter'
http://www.elimangel.com/keter.htm
In Hal Jordans run in The Spectre, he was asking Metron about why evil/darkness exist, Metron told him "only The Source could answer that, IF it can". The Source/TOAA is an aspect of God and Heaven much like The Presence/The Holy Spirit is. Yahweh/The Infinite are beyond The Source which is as far to Yahweh as anyone can possibly go (without going to The Silver City of course, where his Presence if felt the most in the Universe).

The ONLY thing that predates the Creator "The Presence" in the Universe is The Great Evil Beast, it is his only equal and opposite in the Universe. The Presence/Holy Spirit The Light searches all things, even the mind of God. Yahweh and The Infinite are the same being. the Universe and everything else is really just a Dream that Yahweh himself has dreamed up in a way not to be alone. the dream though is still real or as real as it can be!

Are you keeping up with me GS?? Hope you are

oh and The Spectre gets his powers from The Word, The Word is really the only being that lives in the Light, the Light is within everyone alive but The Word/Jesus is the only being that has remained true to Yahweh/The Presence or any other name u want to call God. He is the only 1 that deserves to be next to God always. The LT does not really have free will, its created in a way to always work in a way that God would want. The Spectre also does not really have free will for he was recreated by The Presence to join The Word in some way and become The Words Wrath.

So all of that inconsequential waffle aside the only reason u hav for equating DC's Source to TOAA is the fact that

a)the Source sits beyond creation and TOAA is called TOAA

b) The Living Tribunal is yellow

Kevdude thats the poorest case ive ever seen on these forums.

That is the basis for your argument and you've padded out your post with unrelated therefore irrelevant stuff to mask that fact.

For a start by all accounts the Source is the energies of creation it is the Big Bang and during that moment was when it came into being. How then does TOAA equate to The Source when Phoenix is the Big Bang?

TOAA has never been seen in comics either on panel or by the characters themselves you therefore have no evidence whatsoever to make such claims, whereas Phoenix has the same role as the Source in Marvel it to manifests as the Big Bang, its power runs through all life in Marvel, it sustains all life in Marvel and in a crossover Darkseid made a Dark Phoenix entity by combining the dead Jean Greys residual consciousness with energies from the Source in a crossover. There you have a much better case, a case better supported on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So all of that inconsequential waffle aside the only reason u hav for equating DC's Source to TOAA is the fact that

a)the Source sits beyond creation and TOAA is called TOAA

b) The Living Tribunal is yellow

Kevdude thats the poorest case ive ever seen on these forums.

That is the basis for your argument and you've padded out your post with unrelated therefore irrelevant stuff to mask that fact.

For a start by all accounts the Source is the energies of creation it is the Big Bang and during that moment was when it came into being. How then does TOAA equate to The Source when Phoenix is the Big Bang?

TOAA has never been seen in comics either on panel or by the characters themselves you therefore have no evidence whatsoever to make such claims, whereas Phoenix has the same role as the Source in Marvel it to manifests as the Big Bang, its power runs through all life in Marvel, it sustains all life in Marvel and in a crossover Darkseid made a Dark Phoenix entity by combining the dead Jean Greys residual consciousness with energies from the Source in a crossover. There you have a much better case, a case better supported on panel.

Hey Sprurious extrpolation is'nt just your thing GS

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
It's so true the problem I have is GS wants people to accept his extrapolation as canon, it clearly isn't some of it has merit, some of it does not.



Not at all. How can it be canon when it isnt actually stated. The problem i have is that while the Phoenix/God relationship is clearly alluded to on panel people dont acknowledge that or have the guts to admit that in debate, whereas LT has only been stated to work for a being called TOAA and yet people so readily accept him as an agent of God while theres been no support o fsuch a thing on panel. Certainly not as much support as there has been for a Phoenix/God connection.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Hey Sprurious extrpolation is'nt just your thing GS

No but my arguments are relatively well supported.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all. How can it be canon when it isnt actually stated. The problem i have is that while the Phoenix/God relationship is clearly alluded to on panel people dont acknowledge that or have the guts to admit that in debate, whereas LT has only been stated to work for a being called TOAA and yet people so readily accept him as an agent of God while theres been no support o fsuch a thing on panel. Certainly not as much support as there has been for a Phoenix/God connection.

A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays.

The people im debating with read them and they are the reason i write them in the first place. So its all good my friend.

What people cant disagree with is that there have been allusions to a Phoenix/God relationship. You've admitted so yourself as have many people on these forums. Im not trying to present it as canon i just try and make people admit that fact. Some have the guts to do it some wont for the sake of saving face in debate. (For once that wasnt directed at yourself. )

LT has no stated connection with God therefore such a connection is not canon either.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
A lot of people disagree and mock you all over this forum, you've put your ideas out there if you wish then taken seriously you should let others make up their minds. It's simple trust me no one reads your essays.

Mock me? Please Whirly. Im an adult. Like a few people taking the mick about the essay quality of my posts is gonna bother me.

Doesnt stop what im saying from being true. Yes Phoenix is heavily suggested to be an aspect of God and even now has a role in Marvel befitting of one however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Same goes for LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mock me? Please Whirly. Im an adult. Like a few people taking the mick about the essay quality of my posts is gonna bother me.

Doesnt stop what im saying from being true. Yes Phoenix is heavily suggested to be an aspect of God and even now has a role in Marvel befitting of one however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Same goes for LT.

This is the point GS it's obviously not 100% true, writers interpret characters differently as do readers. You have your view it's not canon. If it was you would not have left for two weeks when the new handbook came out. Yes you have now modified you're ideas and reinterpreter the Handbook. Your interpretation is not canon it's opinion based on two weeks sitting at home crying? It's OK you're an adult, so you temporarily left a comics forum because you thought you'd been clearly proven wrong

Thats cool

Keep the faith

Stay WWWWWWhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrllllllyyyyyy

Merry Christmas

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
This is the point GS it's obviously not 100% true, writers interpret characters differently as to readers. You have your view it's not true canon. If it was you would not have left for two weeks when the new handbook came out. Yes you have now modified you're ideas and reinterpreter the Handbook. Your interpretation is not canon it's opinion based on two weeks sitting at home crying It's OK you're an adult, so you temporarily left a comics forum because you thought you'd been clearly proven wrong

Thats cool

Keep the faith

Stay WWWWWWhhhhhhhiiiiiirrrrrllllllyyyyyy

Merry Christmas

Oh please.

I left the comic book forums because i had much work to do and a student loan to spend. That handbooks release was the last straw and before i got dragged into another long battle over its interpretation i took it as a chance to leave.

Believe what you want its cool. Doesnt change the fact that as desired another person acknowledges theres a connection alluded to however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Thats cool. Same goes for LT. So its alllllll good.

Merry Xmas to you to.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh please.

I left the comic book forums because i had much work to do and a student loan to spend. That handbooks release was the last straw and before i got dragged into another long battle over its interpretation i took it as a chance to leave.

Believe what you want its cool. Doesnt change the fact that as desired another person acknowledges theres a connection alluded to however until its actually stated on panel its not canon. Thats cool. Same goes for LT. So its alllllll good.

Merry Xmas to you to.

I'll look for the post where you were unhappy with the handbook and said you were leaving! Anyway.......... The connection alluded to is by one writer others have not alluded to it. I'm glad you finally admit it is extrapolation we no longer have an argument then. The handbook tries to mix writers ideas, so it really hedges its bets a little.

Merry Christmas

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I'll look for the post where you were unhappy with the handbook and said you were leaving! Anyway.......... The connection alluded to is by one writer others have not alluded to it. I'm glad you finally admit it is extrapolation we no longer have an argument then. The handbook tries to mix writers ideas.

Merry Christmas

Please do my friend. It doesnt contradict with my last post so no worries. As aforementioned the Handbook was the last straw so i left to do some work saying id be back in a few weeks. And here i am.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way that is it. I am so disillusioned with Marvel right now. I thought New X-men was the best X-men series in years and now most of its developments are being ignored. I am outta here for a lil while. Later peeps!!!

The connection was alluded to by Chris Claremont the creator of Phoenix, the original interpretation was rife with references. The 86 retcon interpretation focused more on the connection with life and then in the most recent interpretations by Morrison and Pak a god connection was alluded to again. Yeah until its stated on panel its not canon but same goes for LT and that aint held him back none.

Ooooo youre in a festive mood.

Again Merry Xmas

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please do my friend. It doesnt contradict with my last post so no worries. As aforementioned the Handbook was the last straw so i left to do some work saying id be back in a few weeks. And here i am.



The connection was alluded to by Chris Claremont the creator of Phoenix, the original interpretation was rife with references. The 86 retcon interpretation focused more on the connection with life and then in the most recent interpretations by Morrison and Pak a god connection was alluded to again. Yeah until its stated on panel its not canon but same goes for LT and that aint held him back none.

Ooooo youre in a festive mood.

Again Merry Xmas

I'm glad you admit it's extrapolation of some writing at last.

Merry Christmas yes I will be very drunk tmz night.

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
I'm glad you admit it's extrapolation of some writing at last.

Merry Christmas yes I will be very drunk tmz night.

Yeah and im glad you acknowledge that the LT/God connection is also extrapolation. Cool.


I'll be getting wasted 2morrow as well. Cant wait!!!

Nope, Phoenix Force is a manifestationed entity of The Source in creation that embodies emotion other than intellect in creation trying to save lives or destroy them, so there for its a abstract of The Source used to show its passion to creation. If it was the Source in Jean it wouldn't need to run back to The Source Wall and join The Source again every time its powers are almost gone understand? Some could even say it shouldn't be allowed in creation for its destroying potential life in the future.

Also so are u saying GS that Yahweh would rather talk to the LT and show LT his real form other than talking and showing his real form to umm his 3 more favor sons, The Word, Lucifer and Michael??? Nope Yahweh/The Infinite has never been seen or been heard by anyone which includes the Living Tribunal! He works in ways so nobody would ever really see him. You yourself said nobody has really ever seen or talk to Yahweh so u would have to agree, if u dont then ur ignoring the truth.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where and how has TOAA been shown to be fallible? I dont recall this and i find it hard to believe considering its never appeared in comics and never even been seen by its agent The Living Tribunal.

With such things in mind as far as we know TOAA is the Unmanifest God and therefore would equate to Yahweh.

Marvels Crown would equate to The Presence. By the real life principles theyre based on they are actually the same thing anyway.

Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.

The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.

TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.

The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.

TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.

<<Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.>>

it's always interesting reading someone else's interpretation of events . . .

See.......... the x-mas spirit defeats all hatred.......... even GS and Whirly !!!

ya, they're cute, aren't they?

Originally posted by leonidas
ya, they're cute, aren't they?

You've seen my pic right Merry Christmas guys Good bless us all

and a merry christmas to you my friend.

Originally posted by kevdude
Nope, Phoenix Force is a manifestationed entity of The Source in creation that embodies emotion other than intellect in creation trying to save lives or destroy them, so there for its a abstract of The Source used to show its passion to creation. If it was the Source in Jean it wouldn't need to run back to The Source Wall and join The Source again every time its powers are almost gone understand? Some could even say it shouldn't be allowed in creation for its destroying potential life in the future.

How is Phoenix a manifestation of the Source when the Source is a DC character Kev? Youre confusing yourself dear. Phoenix is no abstract that much was stated on panel. If you wish to debate the nature of Phoenix then come on over to the Marvel hierarchy thread but read before you post to avoid more ill informed posts like this.

No my friend it seems its you who doesnt understand. The time this crossover was written (1982) Jean was literally Phoenix there was no seperate firebird entity (that retcon didnt arrive until 4 years later) that was just her energy signature. As stated it was just Jean in union with the primal force of creation in Marvel.

In this crossover Darkseid collected psychic residue of the dead Jean Greys consciousness and combined it with the energies of the Source to create a Dark Phoenix.

I really hope no further explanation is necessary.

Originally posted by kevdude
Also so are u saying GS that Yahweh would rather talk to the LT and show LT his real form other than talking and showing his real form to umm his 3 more favor sons, The Word, Lucifer and Michael??? Nope Yahweh/The Infinite has never been seen or been heard by anyone which includes the Living Tribunal! He works in ways so nobody would ever really see him. You yourself said nobody has really ever seen or talk to Yahweh so u would have to agree, if u dont then ur ignoring the truth.

Kev i didnt really want to comment before but you seem to have in your head the wild notion that the DC gods are present in Marvel creation, that they directly have something to do with it. They DONT.

Marvel has its only cosmic beings and supreme being and DC has theirs which itself suggests as aforementioned that TOAA and Yahweh are merely aspects of one omniversal supreme being who appears differently to the different creations. However Yahweh has nothing whatsoever to do with Marvel and nor do his other aspects. Stop saying stuff like TOAA is the Source or that Phoenix is derived from the Source and stop this wild talk of LT seeing Yahweh i never once said such a thing because i have the common sense to distinguish between the two comic book creations. Theyre merged in your head, they shouldnt be, seperate them it leads to very confused posts.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Didn't you just have a rant contradicting this entire post? Something along the lines of "Two beings that are based on the same thing are not necessarily equal." Though this is EXACTLY what you base 90% of your Phoenix arguments off of. She didn't create the MU, Reed Richard's will to learn did, with some help from the Cosmic Bunny Thing (CBT for short). LT bowing to Jean was a guess by the Watcher, not actual reality.

I honestly dont know what youre talking about. Quote me.

Phoenix did create the Marvel universe by all accounts she is the Big Bang, the energies of creation from which the universe derived from. In F4 we found what triggered the Big Bang, what caused this manifestation. This issue has been talked about many times previously on these forums you obviously missed that thread. Reed and the Bunny did nothing as individuals if you re-read the comic you'll see it stated that it was all as extensions of Eternity. Eternitys questions on his own existence triggered the Big Bang, Reed and the Bunny travelled back in time and as extensions of Eternity triggered it off in the exact same way. Either way its stated in the comic and this discussion has been had. Use the search function.

As for the X-men Forever comment i'll put that down to misinterpretation or poor recollection. It was not a guess from a Watcher where you got that crazy idea from i really dont know. The Watchers had not a thing to do with the story.

In X-men forever the Stranger found out that humanity would one day evolve to the point where they would become one with creation and surpass the abstracts and LT.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4332/dsc0015614tv.th.jpg

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9236/dsc0015719ym.th.jpg


This was a process co-ordinated by the Phoenix Force and when humanity reached this point on the evolutionary scale Phoenix would collapse reality before starting a new creation. The Stranger feared this event and sought to access the Phoenix Force via Jean in order to bring about this process on his own terms and through the power he would survive the process and emerge in the new creation, unchallenged as the supreme being of reality.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6676/5a3sv.th.jpg


http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4589/5b1km.th.jpg

Eternity then contacted Jean and told her that while the beginning and end of creation and the replacement of the abstracts was a natural process controlled by Phoenix the Strangers plans to speed up the process and then twist it to his advantage was unacceptable so he asked Jean not to allow Strangers plans to come into fruition.

While that scene didnt actually happen there and then, the replacement of the abstracts and LT happens anyway via the Phoenix Force as stated on panel. Your point is void.

Originally posted by Dizzle
The Presence has too been challenged... Great Evil Beast is its equal and opposite. The Source is not actually "God" either. Yahweh is God in his entirety within DC. He has complete control over all of the original Creation, which Lucifer bypassed by making a second Creation... God wasn't defeated, God's system had a loophole.

Why are you telling me this none of this relates directly to anything ive said or to this thread. I read Lucifer so and regularly at that so i dont require a recap.

Originally posted by Dizzle
TOAA has never been seen. (Supreme TOAA, not TOAA the Celestial) All we know is that he's LT's boss, and since nothing short of the HOTU has been shown as more powerful than LT, it's kind of assumed taht TOAA is the most powerful being in Marvel.

Ive said this in this very thread. Why are you telling me this?

you know what...... wolverine's beserker rage cause the big bang there.

<<Kev i didnt really want to comment before but you seem to have in your head the wild notion that the DC gods are present in Marvel creation, that they directly have something to do with it. They DONT.>>

i think he's trying to say that yahweh is so great in dc that he is/showuld be seen as the being who created the entire universe of comics in general. as the 2 universes HAVE been shown to be related, i think he's speculating (for some reason based on real-life religon) that yahweh has created both universes and that the forces are directly co-related because of that.

a point i disagree with, btw . . .

Except Yahweh just handed over creation and left, and the girl combined her creation, Yahwehs creation and Lucifer's creation into one.

And it still truly remains to be verified whether Lucifer's comics are Canon for DC, though they sometimes appear to be.

Thats sorta true leonidas, I do believe Yahweh in DC has created everything in Marvel as well! He God ever known in comics and in the real world. I don't really base it on real life Christianity even though DC has created it to be like that. DC and Marvel have both created crossovers together and The Spectre and The Living Tribunal talk as though they serve the same God, that is enough info to put 2 and 2 together that Yahweh/The Infinite is the God of both DC and Marvel. Marvel just relates to religion differently then DC does.

Also u can't really say TOAA and The Source aren't the same being GS until Marvel comes out and says it. Everything i've read shows TOAA and The Source to be the same being (whether u admit it or not u know its true).

After reading more Spectre and info online and more Lucifer comics now believe The Presence and Yahweh are the same being. The Presence (Yahweh) created everything in creation, The Source is Gods Will. In COIE if the Anti-Monitor was threating Heaven, The Presence would have stepped in fully and took care of it himself or sent an army of angels with Michael to kill him which didn't happen. the only major time the Creator (YHWH"The Presence" showed himself after the Universe was created was when it was threaded by The Great Evil Beast (both who are totally Omnipotent). nobody could even see God for he was so bright.

It is shown in Sandman #23 (2.91) that The Presence and his angels create The Silver City proving Yahweh and The Presence are the same being, he is the most holy. He also was the 1 that said "let ther be light" as Juntia said.

there is many aspects of Heaven but The Silver City is the first and only true 1 that the Creator mainly cares for.

Originally posted by kevdude
Thats sorta true leonidas, I do believe Yahweh in DC has created everything in Marvel as well! He God ever known in comics and in the real world. I don't really base it on real life Christianity even though DC has created it to be like that. DC and Marvel have both created crossovers together and The Spectre and The Living Tribunal talk as though they serve the same God, that is enough info to put 2 and 2 together that Yahweh/The Infinite is the God of both DC and Marvel. Marvel just relates to religion differently then DC does.

Where have LT and Spectre talked as if they served the same God? Show me scans, quote issues whatever you have to do to convince me and whoever else is reading that these notions are nothing but your opinion on how things should be.

DC and Marvel have had crossovers the only one that is canon though is the JLA/Avengers one. All you can read From that is that they exist in the same omniverse which was obvious anyway. You cant say Yahweh created created Marvel because thats utter rubbish Kev. You have no basis for saying that whatsoever so dont. Marvel has beings on panel stated to be responsible for its multiversal creation/affairs (i.e Phoenix,LT, TOAA) just like DC (Yahweh and his aspects, Lucifer and Michael). With that in mind what is inferred by the fact that there is a canon crossover is that as aforementioned the likes of TOAA and Yahweh are themselves aspects of an omniversal being. That makes sense and caters for the fact that each company has beings occupying the roles your opinions are allocating to your DC faves. However that in itself is not canon as it hasnt been stated anywhere so i am not stating that in debate as fact like how youre presenting youre unsupported opinion.

Your idea is basically Yahweh is so powerful so i think he created Marvel as well.


Originally posted by kevdude
Also u can't really say TOAA and The Source aren't the same being GS until Marvel comes out and says it. Everything i've read shows TOAA and The Source to be the same being (whether u admit it or not u know its true).

Kev youve been here long enough to know it doesnt work like that. Youre the one making claims. Its your job to back them up.

By your logic i can say Jubilee is the tru epower behind House of M and Infinite Crisis and noone can say thats not the case till Marvel and DC say she wasnt. Puh-lease Kev

Kev i really used to think you knew your stuff. Youve conclusively proved me very wrong.