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Despite my feelings about the PT (ROTS made up for the other two), my greatest disappointment lately lies with the character of Darth Vader as we knew it from the OT. He was iconic. So iconic that the set fell very quiet during filming of ROTS when Hayden entered donned in the Vader suit. He was the ultimate bad guy, the one-not-to-be-messed-with (instead of the chosen one). He became a true icon that we all loved, menacing creature with an unexpected side to him.

But what has the PT done to our beloved Darth Vader? This is what kinda pains me. It turned him into a lame wanna-be cripple that can hardly fight... He even has trouble beating a bloody padawan learner that had a couple of months of training. Is this the greatest Jedi that ever lived?

Before the PT, before the Dark Times, we had no idea about Jedi training or how they're supposed to fight. GL gave us all of his original ideas and left usin the OT with a couple of lamo's. Poor pathetic wanna-be Jedi. The Jedi we always wanted to be as kids were OT OB1 and Luke, heck even Vader.
GL explains it all that Vader's a cripple and OB1's an old man. I find no explanation for the sudden change. Dooku looks at least as old as OB1 and is super agile with flips and salto's, Yoda's hopping and jumping about like a twelve year old (despite his age of 800+, some 25 years before his death of old age).
OB1 in the OT is only 60 old or something but now he moves like a stiff old man. And Anakin, heck I'd expect him to master his electronic body as the supertechno kid he always was, to become agile and quick. But none of that.... the PT made our hero's of look pathetic.

For me, the great and menacing Darth Vader has been reduced by the PT as a somewhat cripple old bastard that can do a fairly good Force choke... the rest is gone of our icon. That for me is the true "Tragedy of Darth Vader", as GL lovingly calls his now six-part saga.

I totally agree with this analysis.

And it appalls me that people defend what the PT did to his character, not to mention the people who immediately assume that OT Vader is a pussy too who could even be beaten by a young Anakin.

Well you have to keep in mind that figuratively & literally speaking, he wasn't the 2nd most powerful being in the entire Galaxy during the Dark times for no reason. He's was still a superb pilot even as Vader. He was still gallant. Going to the battlefront to face the enemy. "ANH", B. of Yavin & "ESB" surface attack. He killed Obi Wan in "ANH" captured Han defeated Luke in "ESB". He was fast enough to blocked Hans multiple blaster shots with his hands just to pull the blaster away, only to tell Han that "He would be honored", if he would join them. As if nothing happened.

The PT hasn't changed my view of Vader. It just told me of Anakin's story before he was Vader. Even after watching the PT. OT Vader is still does it for me.

IMO, OT Vader is still the cool & menacing figure. I've never looked as Vader as a helpless handicap. But a powerful Imperial Commander who has great cunning, demands respect and strikes gut wrenching, throat swallowing fear even among imperials.

Obi-Wan's status in the OT is really down to his powers having declined; the older force users in the PT were all still in tiptop condition.

Obi-Wan was old and faded; Dooku was old but still sharp.

I don't really see why this reduces our view of Vader at all. He doesn't have to have Superman powers to be the menacing figure that he is.

Yep, I got to agree with Ush there. Simply becuase the PT has made Vader tragic doesnt make him less menacing for me.

I wish others would hold the same opinion.

I always have and always believed Vader was a pansy character... so ROTS didnt change much for me...

Yeah, probably because he dies in ROTJ you thought that, didn't you?
As for ANH and ESB, he is a pretty geniously written character.

uh oh another moderator in the star wars section!

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, probably because he dies in ROTJ you thought that, didn't you?
As for ANH and ESB, he is a pretty geniously written character.

I never thought Vader was a great character... and not because of what you just said... he is ok... but not the greatest....

there is truth to this, the OT saber duels are quite honestly pathetic. with the PT duels being amazing. yes vader is a cripple and whatnot. but hes more force user in the OT, hes more saber master in the PT.

this doesn't really change how i view vader in the OT though, it simply adds to showing us how much anakin gave up by turning to the dakside in the PT.

the vader in the OT is still menacing (oddly enough, especially in ANH)

hes just a poor saber duelist relying on raw power and sheer force to in essence "chop down" whoever he might be fighting. the agile quick powerful days of Anakin's saber mastery are gone in the OT and make way for a powerhouse, he is mostly machine after all.

although i really believe that lucas should redo and add parts to the OT duels with CG to make this problem go away and remake the OT duels, especially the ANH duel. and the Obi was old excuse is just getting well...old, no matter how much BS people can try to come up with to explain that duel makes no difference, Dooku was older then Obi and he Pwned jedi like bitches. hes not "faded" he'd been heavily practicing his force abilities and connection to the force via. Qui-gon. he should have technically been more powerful then when he fought Anakin on Mustafar.

at any rate some CG magic is needed in the OT duels to lengthen and make then faster and better. (im not suggesting getting rid of the footage we already have, just adding to it)

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
the vader in the OT is still menacing (oddly enough, especially in ANH)



I agree But the other two movies, he is just a weak villain

Weak?!

Originally posted by BAILY
I agree But the other two movies, he is just a weak villain

Thats because in the other two movies (before the prequel trilogy was released), we begin to see the Empreror as the true villian and start to understand a bit more about the tragedy of Vader.

"hes not "faded" he'd been heavily practicing his force abilities and connection to the force via. Qui-gon"

Untrue.

"Your powers are weak, old man."

Information given to the audience. Obi-Wan himself doesn't think he is up to it any more, either.

Lucas just needed to sell the PT with eye candy, thats all he really had left. Then of course he came up with all these lame excuses as for why the OT fights looked the way they did. Vader would beat the crap out of anyone, they just didn't have the effects back then, plus, thats when he was focused more on the story then the speedy boom flippy effects. If they had made the episodes in chronological order, then people would be asking why the "fully trained" Jedi in TPM-ROTS fought so lame. It's all about the technology, think no less of Vader, or Luke, or any OT character, Vader and Luke would still beat the crap out of the PT Jedi.

Yeah, they have no clue to Star Wars at all.

Anomaly, you may use your puntuation buttons on your keyboard (assuming it is a basic keyboard) and have you ever considered that fighting as fast as you can (as seen in ataru) is not always the most effective way of fighting?
Darth Vader perfected his skills over the decades of time he had to study under Sidious, he completed his training and perfected his way of fighting.
Although it may not always seem like it, Vader has indeed improved whilst coming from apprentice to master duellist.

If you look at Ataru practiced by Yoda and Qui-Gon, you can see that as dangerous as it is, it still has its drawbacks like both participants tiring out fast and Qui-Gon's defeat by the hands of Maul.
Going as fast as you can doesn't always mean that it is the most effective.

!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only.

Originally posted by overlord
Yeah, they have no clue to Star Wars at all.

Anomaly, you may use your puntuation buttons on your keyboard (assuming it is a basic keyboard) and have you ever considered that fighting as fast as you can (as seen in ataru) is not always the most effective way of fighting?
Darth Vader perfected his skills over the decades of time he had to study under Sidious, he completed his training and perfected his way of fighting.
Although it may not always seem like it, Vader has indeed improved whilst coming from apprentice to master duellist.

If you look at Ataru practiced by Yoda and Qui-Gon, you can see that as dangerous as it is, it still has its drawbacks like both participants tiring out fast and Qui-Gon's defeat by the hands of Maul.
Going as fast as you can doesn't always mean that it is the most effective.

Another valid point that I had left out.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only.


Yeah, remember the half-assed crappy cover ups I mentioned?

What you call 'half-assed crappy cover up', I call a simple declaration of the way things are.

This is how GL creatively wanted it, so I guess you'll just have to live with it.

dooku kept up with his training, obiwan didnt.
obiwan knew he no longer had to fight up to the standards of the
old order. really, what challenge was there besides vader? he could have
whooped any stormtrooper or cantina scum, but as far as vader, his plan was to be defeated so no point in training. and palps? obiwan wasnt powerful enough in his prime to defeat him, as yoda declared, so no point in training there. so he got weak...relatively.

and really queeq, the only ways for GL to preserve the mistique of vader's ability would have been to either:

-not even make the PT

-make all the jedi/sith in the PT fight slowly (booooooring)
or
-remake the OT fight scenes (*pukes on keyboard*)

sorry queeq. you're beat

I was watching A New Hope last night and I dont think there is anything wrong with that dual honestly. Just because the swinging of the sabers is slower doesn't take away its meaning.

One of the flaws of the prequels is I think they should have been molded to fit flawlessly with the OT then George Lucas wouldn't need to make changes to the OT to make it work.

Oh, I'm a big fan of the ANH duel. Very technically competent.

I agree, PVS... I'm beat by the PT. I don't know the solution either. Maybe I'm just too pissed at GL calling the Jedi in the OT cripples and old men.

I'm not saying the OT's gotten worse or anything, but I do find it hard taking Vader seriously after the PT. I mean, he's slow, sluggish, seriously handicapped, a shadow of Anakin. Heck the guy even takes about 25 years to make decent promotion in the Empire... In ANH, 20 years later he's still Tarkin's lap dog. Only in Empire he's the head honcho... I mean, that is so lame.

Well, at least the sabre fights in the OT are a lot more dramatic than those in the PT, they are technically inferior, but dramatically superior.

Still, Vader's not the man he used to be.

Originally posted by queeq
I agree, PVS... I'm beat by the PT. I don't know the solution either. Maybe I'm just too pissed at GL calling the Jedi in the OT cripples and old men.

I'm not saying the OT's gotten worse or anything, but I do find it hard taking Vader seriously after the PT. I mean, he's slow, sluggish, seriously handicapped, a shadow of Anakin. Heck the guy even takes about 25 years to make decent promotion in the Empire... In ANH, 20 years later he's still Tarkin's lap dog. Only in Empire he's the head honcho... I mean, that is so lame.

Well, at least the sabre fights in the OT are a lot more dramatic than those in the PT, they are technically inferior, but dramatically superior.

Still, Vader's not the man he used to be. I've noticed this too, only never really copmrehended it.

I have to agree.

The PT has basically ret-conned Vaders character into something pathetic by having superhero Jedi's in the PT.

Han Solo, Leia, Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, almost every character in the OT had their own strength. They pale in comparison (as far as abilities go) to the superheroes of the PT.

OT had warriors, the jedi were understated druid warriors that complimented the normal "muggle" population so that normal heroes like Han, Leia, Chewy and so forth all had their own worth.

The PT comes along and makes the OT characters look like shit. I don't mean they make their CHARACTER shit, but their skills and power.

Vader, twenty years ago, was a bad ass, and always was. Now, he's a cripple who can't fight. The PT shows us that mechanics don't mean you are clumsy and rigid, by introducing General Grievous, who is nimble and fast, and makes this ret-con even harder to stomach.

Obi-Wan, twenty years ago, was a bad-ass warrior who has lost his edge. Now, he's an old man that can't put up a fight against a cripple.

Stormtroopers, twenty years ago, were soldiers, human, who at least had an interesting edge to them in that they seemed like conscripts and a real miliatary unit. Now, they are a bunch of clones with a personality deficit.

Boba Fett, twenty years ago, was the lone gunman, the man with no name, so-to-speak. Mysterious, sinister, understated bit part character who's death is easy to come to terms with given his small role. Now, he's a lame stormtrooper who is even more lame than his lame dad, and given the Fett's expanded and quite monumental role in the actual story, his death makes him look even more of a loser than he already was. And it turns out he used to be an annoying brat. Uncool.

Obi is the greatest fighter. I am not saying he is the greatest wielder of the force, or THE smartest Jedi ever, or the fastest and so on...

But he is a great wielder of the force, he is smart, he is fast... he has a great combination of all the best qualities a Jedi should have. That's why he beat Anakin. Anakin is on paper better, but lacks the discipline.

People tend to underestimate Obi because he is such a nice person. But Vader - who actually doesn't do that much in the movies - is for a strange reason overrated. Not much, but still...

Getting back on topic here.....
I would have liked to see more of boba fett, like you know, grown up! The prequels went in a different direction than I would have liked(still love em tho).
It would have been better to take most of ep 1and2 and combine.

Start with ani at 12 or 13, it makes his being too old and screwing up later do to attachment and not enough training more believable, as well as his flying of pods and ships. Put all the trade federation and senate crap of 1 and 2 in ep1. Start with ani winning the pod race, then the jedi getting stuck on tatooine. Ani is already the hero, and helps them fix the ship. Qui gon just takes him, no bargain, no stupid race set up, no waste of 40min. end just the same, but with the seperatist movement starting.
In ep2 still have clones and love story, but way more of dooku and start the battle of geonosis in the first 40 min. have grevious introduced in the last 15 min, like in clone wars, or somethin.
In ep3 we already have govenors, star destroyers, and ties(not to mention friggin y-wings, gl dropped the ball on that one!) Show more of the rebellion, and have ani fight mace, as mentioned. Palps v.s. yoda would be like mace vs sid, with yodas saber taking lightning, no saber for palps, then a force battle. end the same


Of course, I could watch a whole movie about the sith apprentice vader who killed everybody in the control room, and suited vader hunting jedi, while we see qui-gon and get an explanation about force ghosts maybe they'll make "STAR WARS: CONNECTIONS"

Originally posted by queeq
Despite my feelings about the PT (ROTS made up for the other two), my greatest disappointment lately lies with the character of Darth Vader as we knew it from the OT. He was iconic. So iconic that the set fell very quiet during filming of ROTS when Hayden entered donned in the Vader suit. He was the ultimate bad guy, the one-not-to-be-messed-with (instead of the chosen one). He became a true icon that we all loved, menacing creature with an unexpected side to him.

But what has the PT done to our beloved Darth Vader? This is what kinda pains me. It turned him into a lame wanna-be cripple that can hardly fight... He even has trouble beating a bloody padawan learner that had a couple of months of training. Is this the greatest Jedi that ever lived?

Before the PT, before the Dark Times, we had no idea about Jedi training or how they're supposed to fight. GL gave us all of his original ideas and left usin the OT with a couple of lamo's. Poor pathetic wanna-be Jedi. The Jedi we always wanted to be as kids were OT OB1 and Luke, heck even Vader.
GL explains it all that Vader's a cripple and OB1's an old man. I find no explanation for the sudden change. Dooku looks at least as old as OB1 and is super agile with flips and salto's, Yoda's hopping and jumping about like a twelve year old (despite his age of 800+, some 25 years before his death of old age).
OB1 in the OT is only 60 old or something but now he moves like a stiff old man. And Anakin, heck I'd expect him to master his electronic body as the supertechno kid he always was, to become agile and quick. But none of that.... the PT made our hero's of look pathetic.

For me, the great and menacing Darth Vader has been reduced by the PT as a somewhat cripple old bastard that can do a fairly good Force choke... the rest is gone of our icon. That for me is the true "Tragedy of Darth Vader", as GL lovingly calls his now six-part saga.


As much as i respect your argument Queeq, i have to say i disagree with your statement. You cant tell the story of somone's downfall without emotional conflict from every day life. It made him Human for the first time - a story of how good people turn bad. I just think the whole contrast is far greater from a guy who's all evil - or so we were led to believe.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
!

Heck no, Vader was WAY worse in the OT than before. His sabre fighting has not improved- he's too slow and wild (just as indisciplined as before, too, but now without the reflexes to compensate).

No, the OT duellists are all worse. This is from GL- we see true sabre fighting in the PT era only. It doesn't contain any logic that Vader would have still been worse than when he was in ROTS when he finally completed his training and perfected Shienn.
And the poor arguments that the PT dueling is so incredibly good isn't convincing because it doesn't seem effective at all, making summersaults and more nonsensical stuff.

And I really do believe that Lucas' intention was that Vader was the most powerful warrior the universe had ever known who single handedly wiped out the jedi and Obi Wan was supposed to be one of the last remaining jedi due to him being one of the best even still in ANH.

Sure, Lucas might want to change all his basic idea's behind the characters of his original trilogy but he already finished the scripts and the whole movie series including his idea's a long time ago.

He might want to rewrite the whole thing and make us think that the OT warriors stunk but it's finished and I consider the original and finished story as more canon than Lucas saying that he wants to turn back time. He can wish all he wants, hell, he can even release the whole series until infinity but that doesn't mean anything to me.

What really sucks is that they dont show how and why Anakin turned on the Jedi. All we see in ROTS is that Palpatine seducing him by lecturing him about Sith s**t. The main problem in ROTS is that GL couldn't expand as to why Anakin became Vader. Sure it was to save Padme but there was more to it than that.

I never got the whole OT sword fighting argument about why they are crap. I dont see them as crap (compared to PT of course they are, but as a fight in themselves, they are not crap). Vader still pulls out some good moves, he doesnt need to flip around and so on to look like he knows what he's doing.

For Obi Wan in ANH, I never looked at it as he's an old man who cant fight. To me, he looked like he could still hold ground, he just doesnt choose to. The way he looks at Luke right before making his decision to die suggests to me that the fight was never going to be another epic duel, but as a ploy to hold time for the bigger plan.

ESB - To me, this really shows Vader at his finest. This is the big bad Vader I love. Relentless with pursuing Luke, putting no effort into defending Han's shots, playing with Luke by throwing things at him with the Force, then eventually getting pissed enough to cut off his hand. Vader was on top of everything in this movie. As he should be.

ROTJ - Vader is softer, he's letting through more of his good side. He's not pissed at Luke, he's more provoking than actual fighting. Then his redemption, seeing as the movie is about him coming back, I'd expect to see Vader not being such a bad ass. Makes you feel more sorry for him having been fecked over and making so many mistakes.


Vader is still a 'dont mess with me' kinda guy. I still see him as the scary villain guy through the OT. Vader doesnt exist in PT, I dont know what you're all looking for. Its after ROTS you should be looking for Vader to shine.

Demarest, I agree with a lot of what you said. Grievous and Dooku were both wasted, the whole Rebellion set up could have worked if it was all planned out better, and if Phantom Menace was just scrapped altogether (because really, what was THE POINT? and why couldn't the small significant plot points of Ep I could have been incorporated into say, Episode II and use that as a start point to allow more breathing space and fleshing out of the more interesting characters - namely the ones from Episode III.).

Bah, I've said before I actually wish the prequels never existed. What I (and everyone else) imagined was way cooler than what we got, I think. I think Lucas should have just left a lot of things unsaid. Sure, the prequels explained a lot, but they also didn't explain a lot of things, (ie, the rebellion) and made some things even more confusing (fighting styles, technology, the Leia-mother ROTJ scene etc), a lot of things many fans wanted to see, such as the birth of the rebllion, were cut in favour of watching Jar Jar Binks fall over and play with himself while a fake, shitty war goes on, there's loads of useless exposition and nothing happens for the first 3rd of the new trilogy. The huge waste of time means Episode III is just cram-packed and overflowing with exposition and it feels like a checklist being ticked off. It's like Lucas went off on his own little mission, realised he had to bridge the gap, and so made a "to-do" list for the last five minutes of Episode III, and also came up with the plan of rubbishing the OT characters just so his new CGI superhero Jedi would seem legit in the Star Wars Universe. It doesn't seem naturally flowing at all. I wish he had never even botherred, really.

Polished his diamond into dust.

^ very well said.

The prequels, while flawed, are still worthy additions to the fine saga that had ewoks, funky slugs, wolves and devils in bars, and "scruffy-looking nerf herders" as plot devices.

StarWars is my all time fave stuff, but even I know its limitations.

The prequels dont suck anymore than the OT.

in other words....


"Dont piss on my leg and tell me it's raining'

This has got to go down as one of the stupidest topics ever to discuss!

It's really quite simple, no really, it is......read and learn:

Anakin, healthy young jedi constantly improving skill and power = PT
Vader, 95% robot, 7ft giant made of iron = OT
Obiwan kenobi, jedi master approaching middle age = PT
OLD BEN, sluggish, aged and out of serious practice = OT

The Republic and Jedi in there 1000's (e.g. Golden F?%king Age) = PT
The Empire and few surviving Jedi (in hiding e.g. not showing off their powers and fancy skills) = OT

If you add all these things up, know one should really have to explain anything further.

In the PT, obiwan was peaking, and anakin was awesome and could've gotten better but we all know what happens to him.

In the OT, Vader is a mechanical monster but has lost serious amounts of agility and power, due to him having lost more than half his body and being fitted with all those metallic extras.
Obiwan on the other hand is simply quote "getting to old for this sort of thing", and quote "your powers are weak old man"

And if all that isn't enough, people in previous posts have mentioned.......both trilogy's were made in different F?%king decades with these annoying little things called "LIMITATIONS".....why do you think kung foo movies and sword fighting look a hundred times better in movies today than they did 20 years ago.

The Fact is, Obiwan and Vader in the OT look and fight the way they due due to all the above mentioned.

It's really amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious Sh?t!!

Originally posted by Lightning_Count


It's really amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious Sh?t!!

You've just stated the obvious, though. Everyone here already knows this.

We're complaining about the fact Lucas has ruined the "awe" factor of many of the OT characters.

If the OT had limitations, then impose those same rules on the Prequels, as opposed to ret-conning the OT with lame excuses.

Oh and before you say "the prequels are new, so they should look more visually stunning" I must ask: why? The OT have been classics for years, and the original versions are still regarded as the BEST versions. The effects and limitations is fighting choreography and visual effects didn't detract from the characters or the quality of the storytelling.

There was no need to change or re-work any of the characters already established. The only reason is that Lucas wanted to substitute good storytelling and classic characters with flashy CGI and Matrix/superhero hybrid lightsaber fights.

Limitations are not limitations at all, only in a visual sense. There is no limit on storytelling and characterisation. Thats why in twenty years time, people will still be talking about A New Hope more than any of the prequels.

Originally posted by Lightning_Count
If you add all these things up, know one should really have to explain anything further. "know one?"

And you called us stupid.

"It's amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious shit!"

Please, give me a break you hypocrite.

Originally posted by Lightning_Count
This has got to go down as one of the stupidest topics ever to discuss!

It's really quite simple, no really, it is......read and learn:

Anakin, healthy young jedi constantly improving skill and power = PT
Vader, 95% robot, 7ft giant made of iron = OT
Obiwan kenobi, jedi master approaching middle age = PT
OLD BEN, sluggish, aged and out of serious practice = OT

The Republic and Jedi in there 1000's (e.g. Golden F?%king Age) = PT
The Empire and few surviving Jedi (in hiding e.g. not showing off their powers and fancy skills) = OT

If you add all these things up, know one should really have to explain anything further.

In the PT, obiwan was peaking, and anakin was awesome and could've gotten better but we all know what happens to him.

In the OT, Vader is a mechanical monster but has lost serious amounts of agility and power, due to him having lost more than half his body and being fitted with all those metallic extras.
Obiwan on the other hand is simply quote "getting to old for this sort of thing", and quote "your powers are weak old man"

And if all that isn't enough, people in previous posts have mentioned.......both trilogy's were made in different F?%king decades with these annoying little things called "LIMITATIONS".....why do you think kung foo movies and sword fighting look a hundred times better in movies today than they did 20 years ago.

The Fact is, Obiwan and Vader in the OT look and fight the way they due due to all the above mentioned.

It's really amazing how stupid people can be on such obvious Sh?t!!


I can understand what you're saying (the name calling excluded which is totally unnecessary). But your points are exactly what disappoints me now:

1. I see Dooku in the PT, at least as old as (if not older than) OB1 and yet: very fast and agile.
2. I see Grievous in the PT, more machine than Vader and yet: fast, speedy, nimble..
3. Yes there are decades aparts, yet they are one story. You're not going to film the book Scarlett with Rhett and Scarlet driving around in fast ferrari's and visiting house parties, just because GWTW and Scarlett are some 60 years apart. They still play in the same story era and that era has rules. The same should go for SW. Technoligy has advanced... we know that b(Luke's hand compared to Anakin's for instance) but not that much. Vader should have at least have some slightly technically advanced armour by the time of the OT, yet he does not...

Dooku was coming up.

He had the darkside, wich was gaining in power in the PT, and the psycological ambitions of becoming the next emporer.

Obi is a whipped old dog. His friends all died. His brother/student is the reason. He failed. and Until Luke becomes strong, the light side isn't really coming to anybody's aide. Namely his. Plus, I still think his duel with vader in ep4 was about distraction for luke's escape, and to get "closure" on what happened with anakin.

Sorry for all the psycho-babble.

oh, and grievous is almost 80% robot, like his bodyguards, but with a brain, eyes,and guts. So he really is just the best fighting droid ever made, and as such, should be expected to be agile, nimble, quick,etc....

Vader is half a man, all chopped up and pieced together, whose artificial life supports, anger, and a cool sense of self-hatred keep him going.
When you take that into consideration, his raw power and fighting moves, (especially in ESB) are friggin AWESOME.

As for the difference in the look of the movies with the advances of technology..... Hmm. Don't have any good answer for that.

(sithsabers mouth goes dry as a popcorn fart)

Originally posted by Council#13
uh oh another moderator in the star wars section!

And your point is??

Queeq: " I see Dooku in the PT, at least as old as (if not older than) OB1 and yet: very fast and agile."


Oh, and another thought, having the darkside with him, which by all accounts, helps prolong life and energy, may have helped.

Whilst Obi-wan had the lightside, and knew that he would survive in a far greater way by joining the force didnt really try to do more than keep vader engaged in that fight,(untill spotting Luke)

Maybe?

The Drakside is actually supposed to eat your body away, right? Like it did to DE Sidious.

uh noo... mace windu did that to him.

The darkside kept him alive for (I'm presuming) several hundred years to implement his plans.

it wasnt just the suit that kept vader alive

Palpatines knowledge of the Dark Side did just as much

We never seen OT Vader actually fight anyone. When he battled Ben in ANH Ben allowed Vader to kill himself and most of the time they were talking. Vader wan't trying to kill Luke in ESB just capture him for the Emperor. And Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in ROTJ or else he would have done so when they were alone before boarding the shuttle.

Yeah, just because the movies don't portray Lucas' original intention as good as they could have done now doesn't mean Vader and Obi Wan are suddenly slow crippled old geezers.
As if the PT shows everything intended in the basic idea of SW. If we would go with what 'seems' then we can also act like padawan Obi Wan can beat both Vader and Obi Wan from the OT.

All what seems to be the case in SW can just be discarded (including all theories regarding) as it is a movie and Lucas still can't put his personal vision and intention as perfectly imagined.

Age and (apperantly) cybernetic implants don't mean much in science fiction such as SW. Yoda and all other old guys could use the force to overcome potential limitations and it was never originally intended that people such as Grievous and Vader would actually be held back in fluently moving and lifting up arms.
You don't see those guys having trouble to pick up people for example (on the contrary!) and even Vader being less powerful was only made up later by Lucas and he only states that Vader lost force potential wich had to do with his body apperantly.
Trust me.. Vader originally just had the suit to travel through space and it was never supposed to hold him back. Even after Lucas made up that he might need the suit to survive, he still doesn't intend that Vader has trouble moving around freely.
It is freaking obvious that when we were introduced to Vader and Obi Wan, that they were the last remaining war veterans who survived for good reasons and not luck as people might have suggested later on.

And the nonsense that Vader is still a pussy compared to himself as a padawan from ROTS even though he had some twenty years to finish training and perfect his dueling skills, and that Obi Wan became worse because he forgot his lightsaber skills after all those years are just plain stupid theories wich go against all original intentions of Star Wars.

I concur with Overlord, Queeq etc.

It's already been said why and its the truth.

i see anakin and vader as too seperate character figures, so the tragedy of anakin doesn't make me feel vader is a pussy in any way. He's still that menacing bastard in the black suit that he's always been....and up untill he finds luke, he's just "Evil".

Originally posted by Shadow x 20
We never seen OT Vader actually fight anyone. When he battled Ben in ANH Ben allowed Vader to kill himself and most of the time they were talking. Vader wan't trying to kill Luke in ESB just capture him for the Emperor. And Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in ROTJ or else he would have done so when they were alone before boarding the shuttle. you might when they make the sereis

Everyone loved Palp in ROTJ even though we never seen him fight.

Yeah, and another thing proving teh suit doesn't hold him back is that Anakin could duel just fine (even better than when he had a real hand), so the mechanical arm in episode 2-3 obviously didn't hold him back, so i don't see why his other limbs would have either. So he obviously picked up a different style of dueling... GEEZ

Actually his mechanical limbs DID hold him back, as did his entire body.

oh ok, i didnt know that, so iunno then

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The prequels, while flawed, are still worthy additions to the fine saga that had ewoks, funky slugs, wolves and devils in bars, and "scruffy-looking nerf herders" as plot devices.

.....or blue elephants playing piano, for that matter......

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Plus, I still think his duel with vader in ep4 was about distraction for luke's escape, and to get "closure" on what happened with anakin.

Yep!



"Escape is NOT his plan; I must face him alone!"

-Vader to Tarkin

i love that line.

The OT duels had emotion.

The PT duels were just flashy **** to show off special effects.

OT >>> PT.

OT villains >>>> PT villains.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
OT villains >>>> PT villains.

I don't know about that, homes. The OT was pretty much all about Vader. Boba Fett and Jabba had their part, but still, it was all about Vader, ese.

I think Darth Maul, Jango Fett, and Count Dooku were cooler than Boba and Jabba.

Oh hell yeah, Boba sucked and Jabba's.......Jabba. Dooku pwns their asses in coolness anyday. Jango to.

Dooku was great, just way too little screen time and way too little plot relevance. Same goes for Maul actually... they were unfortunately reduced to Sith eye candy.

Originally posted by queeq
Dooku was great, just way too little screen time and way too little plot relevance. Same goes for Maul actually... they were unfortunately reduced to Sith eye candy.

I think giving Maul minimal dialogue actually made him cooler. He reminded me of a Yakuza enforcer or a Hong Kong Triad; completely loyal to his superior and his duty. Not to mention his black clothing, tats, and his black sportsbike.

Dooku was a sophisticated bad guy like a Mafia Don or a dirty politician; using buisness tycoons for his own thing before screwing them and implicating them.

Jango was like a gun-slinging desperado; he was on the other side of the law, and lived by his own set of morals, and yet he wasn't truly evil.

I think those three vatos were cool for those reasons. They filled out the archetypes of already established villian types very well. Orale!

I didn't like General Grevious. Not only did that joto look stupid as shit, I think his role and purpose was unecassary. He reminded me of the big dumb body guard, who's only purpose is to die in order too buy time for the real villian. (which basically he was)




Their styles:

Maul: Nice jet black Japanese robe and gi. I liked the contrast of is crimson and black tats and his golden eyes which expressed nothing but bloodthirst.

Dooku: Slick backed hair, a nice silk suit, and finely polished boots. This ese definately had the most style in SW. (Christophe Lee is half Italian, you know)

Jango: Eye-catchy crimson armor, with a flawless glossy finish. (His son could have taken a hint)

^ All of those vatos had great taste in transportation as well. The Sith Infiltrator, Slave I, and Solar Sail were beautiful! Orale!

Grevious: He just looked like an old dirty piece of shit car with the ability to talk. I liked his vehicle though; the one Obi comandeered.

I agree on Maul and Dooku, but I still feel they were almost just iconic additions, they hardly had any plot relevance for the PT as a whole.

Indeed. Maul and Dooku had a certain feeling to them that were like "Hey, these guys are sweet!" but they just weren't...around, enough. In OT, we always get to see what Vader is up to. With TPM, we see Maul very little and then he dies; with AOTC, Dooku was...at the very end; with ROTS, he died in the beginning.

Originally to me Vader was a "Pantomine" bad guy. A kind of "Boo hiss" kind of character. You just couldn't really imagine him doing anything REALLY bad because he just wasn't a bad person at heart. However, he really gave us reason to despise him in TESB. For me, the most shocking line wasn't "I am your father" but rather "Join me". Blowing up entire planets is one thing but to try and corrupt your own child and reduce them to your own level of hate, now THAT'S evil.

Yeah, Vader's cool. I have my doubts about Anakin's coolness.

Well I think Anakin is a pretty sad guy. I would just give this short illustration before I begin:

strong mind + strong body = Leader; characters like Yoda or Palpatine.

strong mind + weak body = Smart-ass politician.

weak mind + strong body = Perfect puppet: people like Anakin.

That's just what happens with Anakin. He's exceedingly powerful yet has a weak mind and so he is corrupted. The real moment of weakness as I see it is in AOTC, when Anakin begins to truly lust for power. He wants to surpass his master, he wants to become all-powerful, he wants to control everything. That's the only real film of the trilogy where he acts pretty much on his own after all.

In TPM he's just a kid and follows Qui-Gon around until he enters tutoring with the Jedi.

In AOTC he's a young man, still officially a padawan but heck he's capable of acting on his own. He's officially bound to the Jedi code but we see several times that it doesn't seem to have that much of an influence on his actions (slaughtering the Tusken, marrying Padme...) Of course he's already beginning to fall under the influence of Palpatine but he hasn't yet got an iron grip on his mind. This only comes in ROTS.

In ROTS, Palpatine has all the cards in hand to turn Anakin into his puppet: he has the secret to save his wife from a death prophesied as inevitable, and he has shaken his trust in the Jedi Order. These are the two bases of Anakin's life. By perverting his perception of them, Palpatine is able to throw Anakin into doubt and tip him towards the dark side. Anakin just isn't really in control anymore, since Palpatine is already closing the trap in around him.

In the OT Anakin isn't even there, it's just Vader (same body, different guy). The only moment when Anakin really acts is in ROTJ when he kills Palpatine and saves luke. In those few seconds of film he kills the man that has been his mentor/master/torturer for the past twenty years (but from whom he has been unable to save himself alone, it took Luke's help after all). In the same time he gives up any right he may have had to rule the Empire. He basically forsakes everything he has had his whole life (his twisted view of things didn't even see the transition fom the Republic to the Empire as evil, it was just the same thing, with the subtraction of the political obstacles). He also gives up his twisted dreams of becoming all-powerful which he has had since AOTC, and that evolved into "ruling the galaxy as father and son" in TESB. He does all that out of love and compassion, to save his son from a gruesome death. Now that was cool.

Yes, Vader from the OT is cool. Anakin is an unsympathetic whining brat.

That may be true, but I still think Anakin is cool.


I might have made a few of the decisions that he did, were I in his position.

He is sympathetic, in that he should never have been trained, he was attached to his mother and Padme before ever arriving on Coruscant, as a podracer and a slave, he had pride and resentment.

He was trained because 1.) He wanted to be (without really understanding, methinks.)
2.) It was forced by Qui-gon and Obi-wan. (more important, methinks)



He does the best that he can, at first, with his power and his knowledge but ends up choosing the wrong path, mostly because of the things that are important to him.



I agree that it cheapens the OT Darth Vader (hence the thread title "The TRUE tradgedy of Darth Vader" ) from being the ultra-badass villian that we knew him as, but it also gives him much more depth and humanity, which I'm fine with.

Originally posted by queeq
Yes, Vader from the OT is cool. Anakin is an unsympathetic whining brat.

Your god Lucas said that they were always supposed to be the same, but the fanboys of the OT made Vader out to be a badass.

And since you can never question Lucas' interpretation of his own saga....take your opinion to the EU forum glare.

I still stand by obi-wan's opinion of anakin in TPM, he's a "pathetic lifeform". He maintains that in ROTJ, "he's more machince than man. Twisted and evil". In other words, so pathetically trapped within his mechanical suit and the evil sith's control!!

but the suit is not a control mechanism...you mean metaphorically?

But Anakin is never a guy we can cheer for, like Luke. And I think that sucks...so he always was a pathetic lifeform... why do we have to watch six hours about a pathetic life form???? Who does not change drastically except in outfit???

I say: Luke rules and he is the TRUE chosen one.

Originally posted by queeq
But Anakin is never a guy we can cheer for, like Luke. And I think that sucks...so he always was a pathetic lifeform... why do we have to watch six hours about a pathetic life form???? Who does not change drastically except in outfit???

I say: Luke rules and he is the TRUE chosen one.

LUCAS says no, so shut up.

I like how you b*tch all the time at us, but then you're just as much a victim of your/his stupid logic as you try to make us.

I know Anakin is the chosen one. But there are canon elements that make it debatable. The canon never CONFIRMS Anakin is the chosen one... Lucas does.

But... Luke uses his hate to defeat Vader and if Yoda is right (once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny), Luke would be lost. Yet, he gets to grips with himself and chooses consciencly for the good side. When that is done, he shows the way to Anakin to turn back and destroy the Emperor who is busy at the moment with te self-sacrificing Luke. So Luke is the real hero for me personally...

It would have been nice that way and ironic, I would have liked that. All were rooting for Anakin to save the Jedi... but he fails, everyone looses faith in the prophecy and then in all obscurity Luke, when all have forgotten about the promise of a saviour, turns out to be the chosen one. That would have been great, nice and dramatic.

^^^ Flaming hypocrite.

Hey, I allowed you to disagree, extend me the same courtesy. I am not rewriting the saga, I would have preferred another path. There is a difference.

I thought what lucas says is canon?

So?

Originally posted by queeq
The canon never CONFIRMS Anakin is the chosen one... Lucas does.



Hmmm. Dont blame me.. im just asking..

Of course Anakin IS teh chosen one, but Luke would have been nicer.

Originally posted by queeq
Hey, I allowed you to disagree, extend me the same courtesy. I am not rewriting the saga, I would have preferred another path. There is a difference.



Shifting positions...

No, I'm not.

25_turkey

dancingmilk

ALL are queeq

Errr..... sure. *taps forehead and calls shrink for Alliance*

No. Shrinks are quacks.

Indeed, you need one.

Why, are you trying to get business or what?

Oh no, do I look like a quack?

Originally posted by queeq
But Anakin is never a guy we can cheer for, like Luke. And I think that sucks...so he always was a pathetic lifeform... why do we have to watch six hours about a pathetic life form???? Who does not change drastically except in outfit???

I say: Luke rules and he is the TRUE chosen one.

um NOPE bang on all counts

PWNED!

Not really, being hit by JP was always the plan. Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen.

*to JP* Okay honey, so far the foreplay...

whipped.

She might... rroooaaaarrr

Horny Old Man

Old???

Old.

Me???

Queeq

How old?

74

Oh right. I just had my birthday...

yeah. Congratulations. I bought you dentures.

How about my cane?

My wheelchair then?

V6 Powerchair.

V8

Thats a large chair.

Yup, I can take pretty ladies for a ride.

Yeah, but you can't get an erection.

Theres a special device for that on board. all I have to do is plug in.

Yeah. Im sure JP would love to be f*cked by Darth Vader's little cousin.

Errr.... he's not little.

Yeah. Little, cold, and dead.

Nope... that's not the one.

Nope... must be yours.

OHELLNO!

Judging by your response, I must be close to the mark.

Good, you agree.

1234

Upside down.

The PT has affected my assessment of Vader as well. Not so much from the standpoint of how powerful he was, but from an emotional, mental and psychological perspective.

In the end, I see him as weak. Not weak as a Jedi or Sith, but weakminded, easily manipulated, wrought with fear, foolish; and later, filled with anger and bitterness.

Some might argue that it's natural to find these characteristics in an evil man like Vader. On the one hand, I agree. But in the OT you see only power and a quest for more power, driven ostensibly by ambition and the ruthless perspective that powerful men are entitled to take whatever they want.

In essence, the Vader in the OT is a powerful man on a quest for more power for power's sake. But from the perspective of the prequels, you realize that Vader is a failure in his own eyes. It 's true that Vader remains one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in an absolute sense, but he never planned to sit second chair. You realize looking back that Vader was on a ruthless quest for power because that was all he had left.

Vader's backstory changes our understanding of the nature of his quest. There's a difference between seeking power because you want more and seeking power because you can't have anything else.

Anakin sacrificed everything to save Padme and rule the galaxy. He knew that with additional study and mastery of the force, his powers would far surpass Palpatine's. It would only be a matter of time until he sat on the throne.

As he lay helpless on the banks of the volcano, pitifully sliding into the lava, he knew it had all been for nothing. Palpatine admitted he couldn't save Padme, Vader himself was responsible for her death, and in the wake of his own egotism and poor judgment he knew he could never fulfill his ambitions.

In the end, he was left a bitter, angry man tormented by the reality that he would never be the man he should have been.

I don't know which Vader I like better. The PT certainly didn't do much good for the OT Vader.

Vader was about as emotionally weak as it gets.

Whiny...