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Thor has the same mindset as Superman. He is going all out. Can he take out Doomsday without BFR'ing him?

Thor decimates Doomsday.

dd wins. handily. if each are in the same mindset, thor has no hope of keeping up with dd. an all out superman could just keep up with him. for every hit thor landed, dd would land...a lot more. thor wouldn't come close to lasting as long as superman did if dd is fighting the way he did against superman. not seeing anyway an argument can be made for thor in this. /shrug

Energy attacks aren't the way to go with DD - Calaton, the Guardian and the JLA proved that.

Thor can win this. He has beaten hurt and beat beings way bigger and badder than Doomsday. Does he win a heavy majority? Doubtful, DD is beast.

I say Thor can probably take about 4/10 or maybe split with him. Thats Thor in character.

thor dies in the first second

Same mindset, meaning, win the fight, not fight exactly like superman. (I assume?)

Thor would get some gnarly wounds, but I could see a crisped doomsday at the end of it.

Thor, with his zero piercing durability lv, would get scissorred in two with a single strike.

This is a one-sided shitstomp in Doomsday's favor.

g007_notamused2

Originally posted by Galan007
This is a one-sided shitstomp in Doomsday's favor.

g007_notamused2

What if it's Galan's DD vs. Rage's Thor?

Originally posted by leonidas
dd wins. handily. if each are in the same mindset, thor has no hope of keeping up with dd. an all out superman could just keep up with him. for every hit thor landed, dd would land...a lot more. thor wouldn't come close to lasting as long as superman did if dd is fighting the way he did against superman. not seeing anyway an argument can be made for thor in this. /shrug

Originally posted by Damborgson
Same mindset, meaning, win the fight, not fight exactly like superman. (I assume?)

Thor would get some gnarly wounds, but I could see a crisped doomsday at the end of it.

Not fighting like Superman, no, but using he is using his options to try and kill Doomsday.

Thor hits DD with a massive hammer shot crushing him like a beer can.

Originally posted by carver9
Not fighting like Superman, no, but using he is using his options to try and kill Doomsday.

Alright 👍


Then I repeat the earlier.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What if it's Galan's DD vs. Rage's Thor? Their union would spawn carver's Hulk.



over

Wouldn't Thor just try to BFR him by opening up another dimension with mjolnir?

Originally posted by carver9
Can he take out Doomsday without BFR'ing him?

Thor if going all out willing to kill.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Energy attacks aren't the way to go with DD - Calaton, the Guardian and the JLA proved that.

That really depends on the energy attacks. Doomsday isn't immune to it, just extremely resistant. Imperiex casually turned him into bones. Thor's god blast will surely have an effect on him. Also being able to take prolonged beatings from Kurse, the Destroyer, Mangog and other characters above DOS Doomsday's weight class makes me believe that he could take as good as he'd give, and if warrior madness truly grants him 10x strength, and heightened durability, I could see him giving Doomsday a hard way to go.

If we limit Doomsday to what he did during DOS like we limit the Hulk to what he did during WW Hulk, Thor should absolutely destroy the beast.

i see Doonsday destroying thor. he is not as durable as superman. and superman died from that fight. his energy attacks as mentioned wont do much damage. fighting? watch his fight vs tutinax for example or savage hulk. he is not too well with trading blows with that level of bricks. doomsday is probably above them. physically doomsday will destroy him. godblast? he wont have a chance to actually use it and summon all that energy while doomsday just standing and watching. if the godblast will do or not thats another question. however as a whole fight, i dont see thor winning this.

Thor after a hell of a battle.

Thor takes this. Every character involved in that DOS event were pretty meh and some where notably weaker than they usually were.

Originally posted by Dareangel
i see Doonsday destroying thor. he is not as durable as superman. and superman died from that fight. his energy attacks as mentioned wont do much damage. fighting? watch his fight vs tutinax for example or savage hulk. he is not too well with trading blows with that level of bricks. doomsday is probably above them. physically doomsday will destroy him. godblast? he wont have a chance to actually use it and summon all that energy while doomsday just standing and watching. if the godblast will do or not thats another question. however as a whole fight, i dont see thor winning this.
Originally posted by Stoic
Also being able to take prolonged beatings from Kurse, the Destroyer, Mangog
Could probably add Durok.

Maxima was holding back. She didnt use half of her abilities. I learned this from Sin.

Originally posted by carver9
Carver primarily debate to try and twist words...he doesn't even try anymore. He is not missed.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Could probably add Durok.

Thor took a beating no doubt. i never said he goes down with 1 blow. he is no glass chin. however he still goes down. he doesnt have IMO anything serious to put doomsday down. eventually in a hit trading contest doomsday will be the last one standing and i think everybody knows that. if doomsday went blow for blow with superman and caused his death... thor is done.

Doese t have anything serious? He has cracked planetoids from his blows in outerspace, cracked celestial armor, hurt Galactus etc. Nothing serious? He has some of the best striking feats in comics.

Without BFR, DOS DD 9/10.

Originally posted by Dareangel
Thor took a beating no doubt. i never said he goes down with 1 blow. he is no glass chin. however he still goes down. he doesnt have IMO anything serious to put doomsday down. eventually in a hit trading contest doomsday will be the last one standing and i think everybody knows that. if doomsday went blow for blow with superman and caused his death... thor is done.
At least u changed ure mind about him going toe to toe against high level bricks.

Thor only has to KO or kill Dos Doomsday once. Thors hammer can get the job done. Anybody thinking DD would walk all over Thor or win by using speed is crazy. Thor has fought speedsters, caught speedsters with his Hammer etc.

Doomsday isn't a speedster though.

Originally posted by carver9
Doomsday isn't a speedster though.



http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3673975-858474-doomsday_faster_than_flash.jpg

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3522849-ddvsjl1.jpg

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3522861-ddvsjl13.jpg

http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3522853-ddvsjl5.jpg

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3522860-ddvsjl12.jpg

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3522848-ddvs.jl14.jpg

Ah, no. Those scans are a mixture of hyperbole and fighting at a set speed. Doomsday is nowhere near as fast as flash.Unless you think DD could have evacuated that city like flash did😁

Originally posted by JBL
Ah, no. Those scans are a mixture of hyperbole and fighting at a set speed. Doomsday is nowhere near as fast as flash.Unless you think DD could have evacuated that city like flash did😁

I don't think Val Armorr could do the Flash evac, but I believe he could fight at Flash speeds.

As far back as DOS, it was established people right next to their fight couldn't percieve what was going on. Whether you believe he's Flash fast or not, Doomsday is definately a speedster.

OP does not go by feats. He goes by fights.

Therefore when creating this thread, he knew that DoS DD in a fight was stated to be faster than Flash.

This statement was made by a traveller from the future. Who knows what Wally becomes and is capable of beyond the DoS storyline.

Good thread

Doomsday kills him before he can react.

Doomsday beats the shit out of Thor.

If Thor is in the mindset that he has to kill Doomsday then Doomsday is obviously ****ed.

No herald bar maybe Hal can match Thor's output.

DOS Doomsday was weak who beat mainly fodder. Thor fighting in the mindset stated by the OP wins.

Originally posted by Dareangel
i see Doonsday destroying thor. he is not as durable as superman. and superman died from that fight. his energy attacks as mentioned wont do much damage. fighting? watch his fight vs tutinax for example or savage hulk. he is not too well with trading blows with that level of bricks. doomsday is probably above them. physically doomsday will destroy him. godblast? he wont have a chance to actually use it and summon all that energy while doomsday just standing and watching. if the godblast will do or not thats another question. however as a whole fight, i dont see thor winning this.

Superman was also far weaker at that time than he had become in the era approaching Flash Point. That's why we shouldn't get Superman involved in this.

Don't get what the issue is. Doomsday isn't steam piling Thor. Maxima did extremely well against him. Hell, she actually had the advantage in the fight until Superman showed up...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67985/1305382-the_death_of_superman_tpb__1___page_84.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67985/1305384-the_death_of_superman_tpb__1___page_87.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/67985/1305386-the_death_of_superman_tpb__1___page_88.jpg

Maxima is powerful but she's not Thor.

Don't get what the issue is. Thor isn't tanking Doomsday. Wolverine did extremely well against him. Hell, he actually had the advantage in the fight until he ended it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/1630793-thor_vs_wolverine_2.jpg

Wolverine is fast and powerful but he's not Doomsday.

Lowball Doomsday = Maxima, a Mid Herald.
Lowball Thor = Wolverine, a Low Meta.

The difference is...several orders of magnitude, lol.

Haha shots fired

I'm glad I didn't see those shots.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Haha shots fired



It's the best. I can say whatever I like, post whatever I want - and carver will never, ever, fight back or report me etc.

Everyone else in the forum, though? Can see the posts I make, next to his. Which exposes his double standards very nicely, I think.

It just depends how Thor fights. In a strictly physical or even with minor lightning usage he will almost certainly go down given how his stats are lower than Superman's.

Thor still has other ways to win though of course. If he feels like keeping doomsday off of him like he felt like doing against the void, he will chip Doomsday down, and keep dropping void killers on him until he wins.

Originally posted by Damborgson
It just depends how Thor fights. In a strictly physical or even with minor lightning usage he will almost certainly go down given how his stats are lower than Superman's.

Thor still has other ways to win though of course. If he feels like keeping doomsday off of him like he felt like doing against the void, he will chip Doomsday down, and keep dropping void killers on him until he wins.

He'd have to drop him in 1. Attempting to use the same attack twice and hoping they'd stack isn't the best tactic to go.

I could see him doing it. But even if he didn't, it was still a double fisted swing that brought DD down. Given the physical abuse he was subjected to before that he should have been immune , but it was just so much more powerful that it didn't matter. Same concept here.

And he's got other attacks if and when he notices lightning is no longer doing the job.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Don't get what the issue is. Thor isn't tanking Doomsday. Wolverine did extremely well against him. Hell, he actually had the advantage in the fight until he ended it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/1630793-thor_vs_wolverine_2.jpg

Wolverine is fast and powerful but he's not Doomsday.

Lowball Doomsday = Maxima, a Mid Herald.
Lowball Thor = Wolverine, a Low Meta.

The difference is...several orders of magnitude, lol.


Perfect way to deal with doublestandards.

Thor should take this pretty definitively. The only way to say that DOS DD would have a chance would be to ignore the power creep in DC after the DOS. Characters back then were being portrayed at a lower level in most categories. For instance Supes couldn't hit lightspeed back then(I don't even think Wally could go FTL back then TBH) and that was before Supes started busting out his major Post Crisis strength feats that followed a couple of significant on panel upgrades. Supes outright said the Warrior(Guy) hit harder than DOS DD. Thor entering the fight in the same mindset as Supes at the end means that he's not gong to waste time dicking around, he's going to bust out something like the Godblast or Durok dropper early on.

Now if we scale everyone in the arcs power to the levels they showed in later times then yes, Thor would have his hands full. But the true DOS version of DD doesn't have a chance against Thor at his best.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Perfect way to deal with doublestandards.

Can't believe you quoted him but it isn't a perfect way. DOS was based off one storyline, so what happened in that story is usable. Dark picking and choosing from a history of comics doesn't change what I said. Especially with this thread being mainly about Thor's best.

Originally posted by carver9
Can't believe you quoted him but it isn't a perfect way. DOS was based off one storyline, so what happened in that story is usable. Dark picking and choosing from a history of comics doesn't change what I said. Especially with this thread being mainly about Thor's best.

Exactly. It's usable.

Not saying it isn't usable.

But his lows are....still pretty damn high, lol.

Thor vs wolverine, still makes me cringe. He's so fast Thor was able to catch him by the ankle? And he flung him with less force than my paper boy. Wolverine should have ended up in space, where Thor would promptly go to and retrieve him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Thor should take this pretty definitively. The only way to say that DOS DD would have a chance would be to ignore the power creep in DC after the DOS. Characters back then were being portrayed at a lower level in most categories. For instance Supes couldn't hit lightspeed back then(I don't even think Wally could go FTL back then TBH) and that was before Supes started busting out his major Post Crisis strength feats that followed a couple of significant on panel upgrades. Supes outright said the Warrior(Guy) hit harder than DOS DD. Thor entering the fight in the same mindset as Supes at the end means that he's not gong to waste time dicking around, he's going to bust out something like the Godblast or Durok dropper early on.


Yeah, because the same Doomsday took the blast of a guardian sacrificing himself which vaporized SBP a few years later.

Superman started to show strength feats more and more but it wasn't like he was twice as strong or anything. And even Byrne era Superman was strong enough to move Earth along with Hal as shown later.

Superman also said Icon hit him the hardest ever. What he says and what he does are two different things.

Uh right, are those even as powerful as a Guardian sacrificing himself?



Idiocy at its finest.

Doomsday had a gl ring so he was amped. Quit ignoring the context. He didn't have a gl ring in the dos arc.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, because the same Doomsday took the blast of a guardian sacrificing himself which vaporized SBP a few years later.

Superman started to show strength feats more and more but it wasn't like he was twice as strong or anything. And even Byrne era Superman was strong enough to move Earth along with Hal as shown later.

Superman also said Icon hit him the hardest ever. What he says and what he does are two different things.

Uh right, are those even as powerful as a Guardian sacrificing himself?



Idiocy at its finest.
DD is solar powered and when he came out of the ground he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years after getting "killed". There's no reason to think that he'd yet reached the level he was at when he took on the Guardian when he didn't do anything in the DOS arc on the level of his tearing through the GL corp and taking on that Guardian. Yes he was becoming more powerful as the fight went on but it certainly wasn't definitive that he'd reached the levels he was fighting at in that arc(which seemed much more along the lines of him in Hunter Prey).

As for Supes/Icon... Hell maybe it was the hardest he'd been hit. Or maybe it was the writer not taking Supes's past fights into consideration. Either way, Supes himself made a direct and specific comparison between the Warrior and DD which makes the statement hold quite a bit of water. I mean people make a big deal out of Booster's offhand statement about DD being faster than Flash or Supes noting that DD was more powerful than Lobo. For that matter, haven't you shown Bullseye saying that Batman hits harder than Daredevil as if it's pretty telling?

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Doese t have anything serious? He has cracked planetoids from his blows in outerspace, cracked celestial armor, hurt Galactus etc. Nothing serious? He has some of the best striking feats in comics.

cracking planetoids is not a serious feat to suggest he will take down doomsday. its a random striking feat even gladiator supressed. and superman also crushed a moon. thor was wearing his gauntler and his beslt when he cracked Exitars armor nice try. he hurt a starving galactus with his godblast. i already addressed the godblast part saying he wont have the time to execute his kamehameha attack before doomsdat stomps his head into the ground. now we can address real string feats in fights where tutinax and hulk outfought thor countless times. thor is not a match for someone like doomsday in a striking war. his energy based attacks wont be useful. doomsday wins.

Doomsday. I cant see a mjolnir-less one armed Odinson matching Doomsday for long.

Thor has the hammer.

Oooh just in time, carv!

Originally posted by carver9
Thor has the hammer.

So this is uru armed thor or classic thor?

If it's classic he does ok. He has a 40 percent chance of succeeding. Uru armed thor even with Mjolnir gets wrecked.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DD is solar powered and when he came out of the ground he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years after getting "killed".

Doomsday's earlier forms were solar powered. He didn't suddenly became weaker because he was trapped in a coffin.



He didn't have a GL ring for himself. The blast was all his durability though.

Hunter Prey was a different beast altogether.


He has made several such allegations regarding Doomsday himself like he was far stronger than Lobo and strongest being he ever faced which includes pre crisis kryptonians .He also koed Warrior with two punches right after that.

So no, it doesn't works like that way.
Well then, Doomsday is stronger than pre crisis kryptonians? Right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, because the same Doomsday took the blast of a guardian sacrificing himself which vaporized SBP a few years later.

Good feat. He did have gl ring.

Yep.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Good feat. He did have gl ring.

and he had adapted to the energies. And had adapted to Calaton etc.

So lightning strikes? He'd adapt to it too.

Its not 10 consecutive fights.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Its not 10 consecutive fights.

Who said it was?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
and he had adapted to the energies. And had adapted to Calaton etc.
The Guardian posited that DD may be adapting and feeding off of the power. Seemed plausible enough. Again however he was the beneficiary of a gl ring which for some reason his use of it was quite intuitive.

He adapted like thousands of years later..... After dying first.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So lightning strikes? He'd adapt to it too.
Given enough time most likely. Then again he could also die or be incapacitated long enough to constitute a forum win. Now if this was DD during Hunter Prey, I would agree with you 100%. His adaptations in that incarnation was so incredibly quick and impressive.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DD is solar powered and when he came out of the ground he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years after getting "killed". There's no reason to think that he'd yet reached the level he was at when he took on the Guardian when he didn't do anything in the DOS arc on the level of his tearing through the GL corp and taking on that Guardian. Yes he was becoming more powerful as the fight went on but it certainly wasn't definitive that he'd reached the levels he was fighting at in that arc(which seemed much more along the lines of him in Hunter Prey).



That's a very good point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Doomsday's earlier forms were solar powered. He didn't suddenly became weaker because he was trapped in a coffin.
A kryptonian who's power reserves are depleted takes time to come back up to full power. Supes himself demonstrated this after DD "killed" him. DD's lack of bone protrusions when he came out of the ground is enough to show that he wasn't quite the same guy who tore through the GL corp.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He didn't have a GL ring for himself. The blast was all his durability though.

Hunter Prey was a different beast altogether.

I didn't even mention the ring so I'm really not seeing your point here.


Originally posted by abhilegend
He has made several such allegations regarding Doomsday himself like he was far stronger than Lobo and strongest being he ever faced which includes pre crisis kryptonians .He also koed Warrior with two punches right after that.

So no, it doesn't works like that way.

And I consider his saying that DD was stronger than Lobo to be totally creditable. Now as for PC Krytonians there wasn't a direct comparison made but I don't even have a problem with that kind of extrapolation either as long it's taken with the logical grain of salt. Hell Kryptonians had already started being portrayed on a more reasonable level for a while even before COIE went down. As for him KOing Warrior easily after that, Supes got upgraded after the DOS saga. Supes himself was outright stronger than he had been when he fought DD so his KOing someone who was stronger than DD isn't that much of a stretch. Especially since he only noted that Warrior was stronger than DD, not necessarily more durable.


Originally posted by abhilegend
Well then, Doomsday is stronger than pre crisis kryptonians? Right?
Sure why not.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17


That's a very good point.
Yeah people always overlook that fact. Just look at the difference between black suit Supes and Pre DOS Supes for an example of just how different a freshly revived Kryptonian can be from one who's been absorbing solar energy for a while. Now DD is obviously different in many ways than the standard Kryptonian, but the fact that he himself is also a solar battery means that we can't simply assume that he was back up to GL Corp busting levels less than a day after being active again.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DD is solar powered and when he came out of the ground he'd been deprived of solar energy for thousands of years after getting "killed". There's no reason to think that he'd yet reached the level he was at when he took on the Guardian when he didn't do anything in the DOS arc on the level of his tearing through the GL corp and taking on that Guardian. Yes he was becoming more powerful as the fight went on but it certainly wasn't definitive that he'd reached the levels he was fighting at in that arc,.

Of course he did. He took on Superman going balls out dumping his entire energy out in the middle of Metropolis with the fate of Earth on the line. That's way above a Guardian and some GLs.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah people always overlook that fact. Just look at the difference between black suit Supes and Pre DOS Supes for an example of just how different a freshly revived Kryptonian can be from one who's been absorbing solar energy for a while. Now DD is obviously different in many ways than the standard Kryptonian, but the fact that he himself is also a solar battery means that we can't simply assume that he was back up to GL Corp busting levels less than a day after being active again. Where are you getting this from?

Remember when sunlight touched SBP?

Or in the Ruin arc, when sun finally hit Superman and he jumped straight to full power seemingly and ended the battle?

And dozens of other examples.

Sunlight is more of catalyst for immense power than a fuel.

Yes, they have a reserve, but they are also a direct funnell that PULLS energy to fill the NEED for energy as it happens.
Typically, they jump directly to their operating levels the moment sun touches them.


Alternatively, RED SUN is written a catalyst to turning the power off. Which we learned when they gave the Red Sun Watch to Chris Kent to turn his power off.

As for Black Suit Superman, its that he not only got put in stasis, but Eradicator, stole Superman's body and was using it to fuel himself for a year, keeping Superman 'dead' all that time, stunted Superman's power from returning, and then later Eradicator took the blast for him, which hit Superman and jump-started his power again.


And just in case we were going to bring up 52/OYL next, that was Superman's own subconscious keeping him powerless. The moment he wanted/needed his powers, they returned at the level he needed them at to accomplish tasks.

If sunlight jumps them to full operating power, how come they get tired while fighting in the sunlight? I guess superman can step into the shade when he's getting tooled and then step back into the sunlight and be back at full operating power huh?

Originally posted by Juntai
Of course he did. He took on Superman going balls out dumping his entire energy out in the middle of Metropolis with the fate of Earth on the line. That's way above a Guardian and some GLs.
Even if we were to assume that DOS era Supes was more powerful than a Guardian(which would be a big mistake IMO), he DIED by Supes going out and dumping all his energy into that final shot. If he came out of the ground exactly as he went in he would have came out with full bone protrusions rather having them growing as more and more of his skin was exposed to sunlight. I mean he had the things when he took on the GL corp.

Originally posted by Juntai
Where are you getting this from?

Remember when sunlight touched SBP?

Or in the Ruin arc, when sun finally hit Superman and he jumped straight to full power seemingly and ended the battle?

And dozens of other examples.

Sunlight is more of catalyst for immense power than a fuel.

Yes, they have a reserve, but they are also a direct funnell that PULLS energy to fill the NEED for energy as it happens.
Typically, they jump directly to their operating levels the moment sun touches them.


Alternatively, RED SUN is written a catalyst to turning the power off. Which we learned when they gave the Red Sun Watch to Chris Kent to turn his power off.
Originally posted by Juntai
As for Black Suit Superman, its that he not only got put in stasis, but Eradicator, stole Superman's body and was using it to fuel himself for a year, keeping Superman 'dead' all that time, stunted Superman's power from returning, and then later Eradicator took the blast for him, which hit Superman and jump-started his power again.


And just in case we were going to bring up 52/OYL next, that was Superman's own subconscious keeping him powerless. The moment he wanted/needed his powers, they returned at the level he needed them at to accomplish tasks.

Hey I'm not saying that the whole thing is written with 100% consistancy, just that there's a precedent for Kryptonian's power reserves being critical to their performance as well. The whole reason Supes went down so hard at the end was because he'd burned through his power reserves(and Supes himself mentioned earlier in the fight that he'd be in trouble if DD's power reserves were as extensive as his own). The sun was still up when the fight ended after all, if it was nothing more than a catalyst he'd have simply been KO'd rather than being thrown into seemingly death like state he ended up in. For that matter, if it were simply a catalyst then a single sundip would remain a permeant state. I'm in no way suggesting that simple exposure to sunlight isn't enough to make them plenty powerful, just that they become more and more powerful as they absorb more and more solar energy. I'm all but positive that this has been specifically mentioned on panel.

you need to rationalize battle damage/energy expenditure as independent but related as a concept.

There is zero evidence to support Doomsday was any less.

And on the flip side we have many examples of sunlight utilized and described directly as turning power on or off.

If you want to continue down the Doomsday was weakened path you'll need evidence.

Originally posted by Juntai
you need to rationalize battle damage/energy expenditure as independent but related as a concept.

There is zero evidence to support Doomsday was any less.

And on the flip side we have many examples of sunlight utilized and described directly as turning power on or off.

If you want to continue down the Doomsday was weakened path you'll need evidence.
Again, he bone protrusions support DD being less. He was becoming more and more like the DD who took on the GL Corp as the fight went on and more of is skin was exposed to sunlight. It's not like they were protruding and the suit was simply wrapped tightly around them, they weren't there. And while I've no doubt that there are those who'd like to believe that DOS era Supes was superior to the entire GL corp and a Guardian, Maxima was doing all right knocking DD around too and I doubt anyone would be willing to credit HER with that level of power.

And I'm reasonably sure that for every instance you can come up with for solar energy being shown as a simple "on/off" switch, an instance can be produced of Supes having his solar energy partially drained and being weakened(but not totally powerless) from it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, he bone protrusions support DD being less. He was becoming more and more like the DD who took on the GL Corp as the fight went on and more of is skin was exposed to sunlight. It's not like they were protruding and the suit was simply wrapped tightly around them, they weren't there. Doomsday was bony from the start, but they got more pronounced and sharper as he needed them. This is part of his adaptation. We also saw in Hunter Prey where used his bones to cover his ears momentarily when he wanted.

There is zero evidence he was less.

Also Juntai, I'm not saying that the novelization of the DOS saga in canon but I just remembered something from it that raises a question I've been meaning to ask a Supes expert for a while. In the novel they talked about Supes's power reserves quite a bit and at one point it was said that Supes's heat vision drained his reserves particularly fast, did this scene play out in a comic prior to the actual DOS saga or is it something that appeared only in the novel?

Did Maxima get a W over Doomsday that I'm not aware of?

They weren't going all in till near the end.

Originally posted by Juntai
Doomsday was bony from the start, but they got more pronounced and sharper as he needed them. This is part of his adaptation. We also saw in Hunter Prey where used his bones to cover his ears momentarily when he wanted.

There is zero evidence he was less.

Not when he came out of the ground he wasn't. We saw his bones starting to bulge out from under his glove while he was punching away at the box he was in, when he reached the surface there were no bone bulges on his shoulders, knees, elbows or the other hand. He had those protrusions when he fought the GL corp, he didn't when he busted out of the box. Ergo, he was different.

Goober you are not known to make things up. Remember writer's intentions is really what's the case. The writer never intended for things to be the way you are speculating. DD was intended to be as powerful as he always was before his death (pre DOS). Otherwise the writer would have made it clear that DD wasn't as powerful in DOS as he was before his death due to him not having absorbed enough sunlight.

Originally posted by Juntai
Did Maxima get a W over Doomsday that I'm not aware of?

They weren't going all in till near the end.
No, but I'd say she was doing better than the GL corp.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not when he came out of the ground he wasn't. We saw his bones starting to bulge out from under his glove while he was punching away at the box he was in, when he reached the surface there were no bone bulges on his shoulders, knees, elbows or the other hand. He had those protrusions when he fought the GL corp, he didn't when he busted out of the box. Ergo, he was different. We have direct evidence it's linked to his adaptation in both DoS and in HP.

Ergo. No evidence.

Originally posted by h1a8
Goober you are not known to make things up. Remember writer's intentions is really what's the case. The writer never intended for things to be the way you are speculating. DD was intended to be as powerful as he always was before his death (pre DOS). Otherwise the writer would have made it clear that DD wasn't as powerful in DOS as he was before his death due to him not having absorbed enough sunlight.
Yes but the GL one shot was released AFTER the DOS saga and the Hunter Prey Saga. Either the writer took DD's established characterazation into account when he wrote it, or he totally ignored it which mean that the one shot itself should be ignored.

Originally posted by Juntai
We have direct evidence it's linked to his adaptation in both DoS and in HP.

Ergo. No evidence.
And his addaption was evidently different in the beginning of the DOS arc. Ergo, he wasn't the same coming out of the ground and he'd taken a "step back" so to speak.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No, but I'd say she was doing better than the GL corp. and in another bit of evidence of sun as a catalyst when GLs had SBP and yellow sun hit him he killed 50 of them instantly.



And Superboy the Teen Titan did much better than them.
Doomsday wasn't going all out yet.

Originally posted by Juntai
and in another bit of evidence of sun as a catalyst when GLs had SBP and yellow sun hit him he killed 50 of them instantly.



And Superboy the Teen Titan did much better than them.
Doomsday wasn't going all out yet.
And to counter that bit, we've seen Supes fly THROUGH a red sun against SBP and neither of them died from being totally "powerless" before they reached the other side.

And saying that DD wasn't going all out... the guy's destruction personified who's ALWAYS going for the kill. He never going anything shy of "all out".

Originally posted by darthgoober
And his addaption was evidently different in the beginning of the DOS arc. Ergo, he wasn't the same coming out of the ground and he'd taken a "step back" so to speak. You have zero evidence he was any weaker. Only that he was using his bones as needed. Just like covering his ears. Get some evidence he was weaker or drop it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but the GL one shot was released AFTER the DOS saga and the Hunter Prey Saga. Either the writer took DD's established characterazation into account when he wrote it, or he totally ignored it which mean that the one shot itself should be ignored. He definitely took DOS DD in consideration. Otherwise he would have made clear the difference in power between the two or established some principle that DD is always weaker when first coming alive than he is right before death.
Anyway, it's established (Up to HP) that DD always gets more powerful each time he comes back from the dead. He becomes stronger and more resistant against damage.

Originally posted by Juntai
You have zero evidence he was any weaker. Only that he was using his bones as needed. Just like covering his ears. Get some evidence he was weaker or drop it.
I'm not going to drop it, logical deduction is a valid basis for debating. We know that DD is a solar battery similar to all Kryptonians, we know that his solar reserves were obviously gone when he "died" before being boxed up and sent to Earth, we know that he emerged from the ground in a physically less evolved form than he was in when he fought the GL corp. That's plenty basis to doubt that he was as powerful as he was before without some feats in the DOS arc on par with tearing through the GL corp and a taking on a Guardian.

Originally posted by h1a8
He definitely took DOS DD in consideration. Otherwise he would have made clear the difference in power between the two or established some principle that DD is always weaker when first coming alive than he is right before death.
Anyway, it's established (Up to HP) that DD always gets more powerful each time he comes back from the dead. He becomes stronger and more resistant against damage.
No it's estabished that he evolves and immunity to what killed him. It's also established that he's a solar battery like the standard Kryptonian.

Also in HP, DD was shown dead with full protrusions the whole time. And he had full protrusions before DOS. Being dead doesn't take away his protrusions.
It's simply artist error to not have his protrusions shown at first or intentional to not reveal his true form until later.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm not going to drop it, logical deduction is a valid basis for debating. We know that DD is a solar battery similar to all Kryptonians, we know that his solar reserves were obviously gone when he "died" before being boxed up and sent to Earth, we know that he emerged from the ground in a physically less evolved form than he was in when he fought the GL corp. That's plenty basis to doubt that he was as powerful as he was before without some feats in the DOS arc on par with tearing through the GL corp and a taking on a Guardian. once again reserves are independent from sun as a catalyst to power.

Red sun shuts off access to solar power but you can burn reserve to keep fighting till gone
Yellow sun is access to power. We've seen kyrptonians time and again go zero to one hundred from nothing.

Doomsday has been shown to use his bones as part of adaptation. Not as any identifier of power.


Either way, he was in full go by story end when Superman realized he would have to cut loose and drop his mental blocks and dig into a level power he never had before to stop Doomsday.

If you want to suggest his actual power was any weaker, you need proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also in HP, DD was shown dead with full protrusions the whole time. And he had full protrusions before DOS. Being dead doesn't take away his protrusions.
It's simply artist error to not have his protrusions shown at first or intentional to not reveal his true form until later.
He wasn't totally absent of solar energy in HP, there were still stars and such around. He was totally absent while in the suit underground. As his skin was exposed, the protrusions grew. Now you can say it's simply artist error, but given all we now know about DD it makes more logical sense to acknowledge that he was physically less evolved than he was when he fought the GL corp.

The fact of the matter is that when the DOS saga came out, NO ONE(including the writers) actually knew what direction DD was going to be taken. He was simply the mysterious guy that was created solely to kill Supes. Everything released since the DOS saga has been purposed towards explaining the guy in the original arc. That's why later revelations about the source of his powers are so important.

Originally posted by Juntai
once again reserves are independent from sun as a catalyst to power.

Red sun shuts off access to solar power but you can burn reserve to keep fighting till gone
Yellow sun is access to power. We've seen kyrptonians time and again go zero to one hundred from nothing.

Doomsday has been shown to use his bones as part of adaptation. Not as any identifier of power.


Either way, he was in full go by story end when Superman realized he would have to cut loose and drop his mental blocks and dig into a level power he never had before to stop Doomsday.

If you want to suggest his actual power was any weaker, you need proof.

Again, I fully acknowledge that the whole thing is portrayed inconsistently. Do you deny that Supes has been rendered weakened(but not powerless) when his solar energy was evidently only partially drained? Do you deny that there are instances of him being rendered totally powerless instantly when exposed to red sunlight?

And while DD's bones are subject to his adaptive ability, it's not like their existence is dependent upon immediate need. It's not like they disappear when he's not using them, but apparently they DID disappear(or where destroyed) before he was boxed up. That suggest that he was physically less evolved than he had been before.

Also, you never answered in regards to whether or not that scene from the novel ever happened in the comics.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, I fully acknowledge that the whole thing is portrayed inconsistently. Do you deny that Supes has been rendered weakened(but not powerless) when his solar energy was evidently only partially drained? Do you deny that there are instances of him being rendered totally powerless instantly when exposed to red sunlight?

And while DD's bones are subject to his adaptive ability, it's not like their existence is dependent upon immediate need. It's not like they disappear when he's not using them, but apparently they DID disappear(or where destroyed) before he was boxed up. That suggest that he was physically less evolved than he had been before.

Also, you never answered in regards to whether or not that scene from the novel ever happened in the comics. All these posts and still no proof that Doomsday was weaker.

Your whole argument suddenly became hinged on bony protrusions we know he grow as needed. You have not provided a shred of evidence they are linked to his overall power.

And even so he was full go by story end.

So it's useless on two levels. Because you admit he had his power already or you admit he grew to it by the battle in metropolis against Superman anyway.


And as for the novel vs comics the proof is the power. Doomsday was stronger than Darkseid - someone Supes hadn't beat up to that point.

Also we know his level from his feats, whereas they mentioned the other heroes
weren't present because they were dealing with worldwide destruction from earthquakes and tsunamis and the like because of the shockwaves they were producing. This is a million times any previous showing.

Then in the wake of his return his feats became greater as he realized how much power he had access to.

Originally posted by Juntai
All these posts and still no proof that Doomsday was weaker.

Your whole argument suddenly became hinged on bony protrusions we know he grow as needed. You have not provided a shred of evidence they are linked to his overall power.

And even so he was full go by story end.

So it's useless on two levels. Because you admit he had his power already or you admit he grew to it by the battle in metropolis against Superman anyway.


And as for the novel vs comics the proof is the power. Doomsday was stronger than Darkseid - someone Supes hadn't beat up to that point.

Also we know his level from his feats, whereas they mentioned the other heroes
weren't present because they were dealing with worldwide destruction from earthquakes and tsunamis and the like because of the shockwaves they were producing. This is a million times any previous showing.

Then in the wake of his return his feats became greater as he realized how much power he had access to.
You seem to not understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that his lack of protrusions when he came out show that he was "less" than he was when he fought the GL Corps. After that his power continued to rise and he started to become more and more like he was when he fought them. However, there's certainly nothing to definitively show that he'd actually reached the level of power he was at when he took on that guardian. Now while the joint feat of causing natural disasters in conjunction with Supes is certainly impressive, I certainly don't consider it to be on par with standing toe to toe with a Guardian if they're to be considered trans/skyfather level beings. I mean there are other heroes who've caused massive amounts of destruction like that before, but few people say that doing so would be considered to be the equal of forcing a kamakazie attack from Odin(or even Thanos for that matter).

And in regards to my question about the novel, I'm in no way saying that it trumps(or even equals) what occurred on panel. I'm simply asking if the scene where the scientist mentioned that Supes's HV depletes his solar reserves particularly fast ever took place in a comic?

Anyway, we're going to have to pick this up tomorrow cause I have plans tonight. But we definitely need to continue it later because it's a discussion I've been wanting to have for a while. Nice going head to head with you again... feels just like the old days lol

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Good feat. He did have gl ring.
The ring was vaporized by the blast.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A kryptonian who's power reserves are depleted takes time to come back up to full power. Supes himself demonstrated this after DD "killed" him. DD's lack of bone protrusions when he came out of the ground is enough to show that he wasn't quite the same guy who tore through the GL corp.


Doomsday isn't a kryptonian though. He was never stated to be weakened during DOS.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, look at SBP and how reasonably he was portrayed ,right?

Pre crisis kryptonians were at least skyfather range in strength.

Then how is it that he was never able to ko even weaker versions of Doomsday?

He didn't say Warrior was stronger than Doomsday though. But hey, double standards always work for you.

So Superman>Warrior>Doomsday>Pre crisis kryptonians>Lobo?

Looking good for Superman there.

Think harder.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He wasn't totally absent of solar energy in HP, there were still stars and such around. He was totally absent while in the suit underground. As his skin was exposed, the protrusions grew. Now you can say it's simply artist error, but given all we now know about DD it makes more logical sense to acknowledge that he was physically less evolved than he was when he fought the GL corp.

The fact of the matter is that when the DOS saga came out, NO ONE(including the writers) actually knew what direction DD was going to be taken. He was simply the mysterious guy that was created solely to kill Supes. Everything released since the DOS saga has been purposed towards explaining the guy in the original arc. That's why later revelations about the source of his powers are so important.

Either we are debating assuming canon or debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon.
If canon then DD had full protrusions before DOS. Thus he always had them.

If we are debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon then there is no mention that DD even got his powers from the sun or what he actually was. So the theory that sunlight caused him to grow protrusions is unfounded.

Writer's either didn't know what direction to go (his real appearance) at first or they simply wanted to keep it a secret.

Originally posted by abhilegend
The ring was vaporized by the blast.
Correct. Along with everything the ring provided. But it did amp him and most likely gave him the usual gl defenses.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And to counter that bit, we've seen Supes fly THROUGH a red sun against SBP and neither of them died from being totally "powerless" before they reached the other side.

And saying that DD wasn't going all out... the guy's destruction personified who's ALWAYS going for the kill. He never going anything shy of "all out".

Originally posted by abhilegend
Doomsday isn't a kryptonian though. He was never stated to be weakened during DOS.
Sure he is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What are you talking about?
I never said anything about the GL ring but you brought it up as if I had. I personally DO believe it was responsible for DD's showing against the Guardian but Celey is handling that argument so I didn't see the point in me focusing on it personally.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, look at SBP and how reasonably he was portrayed ,right?

Pre crisis kryptonians were at least skyfather range in strength.

Power Girl is a Pre Crisis Kryptonian too, not every PC Kryptonian is the equal of Silver Age Supes at the zenith of his portrayals of power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then how is it that he was never able to ko even weaker versions of Doomsday?

I seem to remember him absolutely trouncing Brainiac in HP DD's body.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He didn't say Warrior was stronger than Doomsday though. But hey, double standards always work for you.

So Superman>Warrior>Doomsday>Pre crisis kryptonians>Lobo?

Looking good for Superman there.
Did he not? He may have just said that Warrior hit harder(I have no problem admitting that my recollection may be slightly off) but the point stands.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Think harder.
No need.

Originally posted by h1a8
Either we are debating assuming canon or debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon.
If canon then DD had full protrusions before DOS. Thus he always had them.

If we are debating writer's intentions while ignoring canon then there is no mention that DD even got his powers from the sun or what he actually was. So the theory that sunlight caused him to grow protrusions is unfounded.

Writer's either didn't know what direction to go (his real appearance) at first or they simply wanted to keep it a secret.
No, later writers were simply addressing the "whys" of DD's adaption in the DOS arc. The bone evolution and increasing strength and such.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No, later writers were simply addressing the "whys" of DD's adaption in the DOS arc. The bone evolution and increasing strength and such.

I don't understand.
Do you agree, going solely by canon, DD always had full protrusions during DOS?

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't understand.
Do you agree, going solely by canon, DD always had full protrusions during DOS?
No he obviously didn't. We saw the protrusions on his knuckles "bulge" before they ripped through his glove as he punched his way out of the box. The growing of the protrusions was actually shown, thus he didn't have them when he first woke up. There were no such indicative bulges in places such as his shoulders/knees while the areas were covered by the suit. That means that the bones grew in rapidly AFTER the areas were exposed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No he obviously didn't. We saw the protrusions on his knuckles "bulge" before they ripped through his glove as he punched his way out of the box. The growing of the protrusions was actually shown, thus he didn't have them when he first woke up. There were no such indicative bulges in places such as his shoulders/knees while the areas were covered by the suit. That means that the bones grew in rapidly AFTER the areas were exposed. They were, he just made them longer.
http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Doomsday-is-Coming-1.jpg

We've also seen other examples that he can control them to a degree.
Here he shoots them out.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/43563/3041549-hp_evolve3.jpg

I mis-remembered the ear-canal, and I was at work posting from my phone so I couldn't look. I had remembered it as bones growing over it, but the canal actually just closed.

However, my memory probably just combined it with the following panel, where Superman notes that his broken bones just grow back.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1149976


Even the later version of Doomsday from after he was vaporised in OWAW that had intelligence was able to grow them at will.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307298-4.jpg

The original Doomsday was never shown as 'less', in fact, we've only seem him evolve stronger.

It was very purposeful that his historical showings involved
A)smashing the GLs and going at it with a Guardian,
B)Darkseid being scared of him and running from a confrontation.
C)Battle with the energy being, The Radiant.

These were posed as very deliberate examples of what it had previously taken to put him down and the level he was on before his battle with Superman


We have also seen Doomsday put down, and see that he doesn't do any devolving or rid himself of his bones.
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/aSaWK2_p6quXhGeOrcuYlQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://40.media.tumblr.com/9487058096a2067bcda7b5c3ee04612c/tumblr_inline_o4ti9fSU3T1t0ijhl_1280.jpg

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4307163



There is no proof Doomsday was any weaker encountering Superman in metropolis. In fact, history has only shown us that he gets even more formidable in time.

The length of his bones are no marker towards any proof of this flat wrong idea.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No he obviously didn't. We saw the protrusions on his knuckles "bulge" before they ripped through his glove as he punched his way out of the box. The growing of the protrusions was actually shown, thus he didn't have them when he first woke up. There were no such indicative bulges in places such as his shoulders/knees while the areas were covered by the suit. That means that the bones grew in rapidly AFTER the areas were exposed.

Ok so you are dismissing the canon events that occurred before DOS where DD was shown with full protrusions right before his death? He was also shown dead with these protrusions. He was also clothed in his original DOS green suit with no visible protrusions. Meaning, they clothed him in such a way that his protrusions wasn't showing.

In other words, assuming the falsehood that he didn't initially have protrusions in DOS then the retcon showing that he always had them even before the events of DOS destroys the assumption.

In summary, before DOS, DD was shown both alive and dead with full protrusions. He was clothed immediately after his death, appearing the exact same way at the beginning of DOS. His protrusions were simply covered well.

Jun why are you addressing my response to h1 rather than my response to you lol

Originally posted by Juntai
They were, he just made them longer.
http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Doomsday-is-Coming-1.jpg

We've also seen other examples that he can control them to a degree.
Here he shoots them out.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/43563/3041549-hp_evolve3.jpg

I mis-remembered the ear-canal, and I was at work posting from my phone so I couldn't look. I had remembered it as bones growing over it, but the canal actually just closed.

However, my memory probably just combined it with the following panel, where Superman notes that his broken bones just grow back.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-1149976


Even the later version of Doomsday from after he was vaporised in OWAW that had intelligence was able to grow them at will.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307298-4.jpg

The original Doomsday was never shown as 'less', in fact, we've only seem him evolve stronger.

It was very purposeful that his historical showings involved
A)smashing the GLs and going at it with a Guardian,
B)Darkseid being scared of him and running from a confrontation.
C)Battle with the energy being, The Radiant.

These were posed as very deliberate examples of what it had previously taken to put him down and the level he was on before his battle with Superman


We have also seen Doomsday put down, and see that he doesn't do any devolving or rid himself of his bones.
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/aSaWK2_p6quXhGeOrcuYlQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://40.media.tumblr.com/9487058096a2067bcda7b5c3ee04612c/tumblr_inline_o4ti9fSU3T1t0ijhl_1280.jpg

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4307163



There is no proof Doomsday was any weaker encountering Superman in metropolis. In fact, history has only shown us that he gets even more formidable in time.

The length of his bones are no marker towards any proof of this flat wrong idea.
I specifically said that we saw the bulges from the protrusions on his knuckles growing as he was punching away on that box, so I'm failing to see your point with that first scan. My point is that there was NO bulges shown on his shoulders, knees, and elbows. So no he didn't have them.

And I'm fully aware that his bones are part of his adaptive abilities, that's kinda my point. He emerged from the ground WITHOUT adaptions that he had before being boxed up so there's reason to doubt his being at that level since we know his powers are solar based like Supes and he didn't show the same level of power during the DOS arc that he demonstrated in flashback stories.

All that being said, you still haven't answered my question in regards to whether or not the scene from the novel ever actually appeared in a comic. I mean if you don't know just say so and I'll ask someone else or download the preceding comics myself. I just know that you're knowledgeable enough about Supes that you seemed like a good person to ask.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ok so you are dismissing the canon events that occurred before DOS where DD was shown with full protrusions right before his death? He was also shown dead with these protrusions. He was also clothed in his original DOS green suit with no visible protrusions. Meaning, they clothed him in such a way that his protrusions wasn't showing.

In other words, assuming the falsehood that he didn't initially have protrusions in DOS then the retcon showing that he always had them even before the events of DOS destroys the assumption.

In summary, before DOS, DD was shown both alive and dead with full protrusions. He was clothed immediately after his death, appearing the exact same way at the beginning of DOS. His protrusions were simply covered well.
No the protrusions weren't there. Given their length and the numerous stances we saw DD standing in after coming out of the box, there's no it was simply a matter of them being covered well. Especially since we can actually see the ones on his knuckles growing as he's punching the box.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No the protrusions weren't there. Given their length and the numerous stances we saw DD standing in after coming out of the box, there's no it was simply a matter of them being covered well. Especially since we can actually see the ones on his knuckles growing as he's punching the box.
Now you are trolling. You are not addressing each one of my points.

The retcon says otherwise. It shows he always had protrusions before the events of DOS. He was even shown clothed immediately after his death resembling his original DOS self. How do you explain away him having them before his death and how do explain them putting clothes on him where he appears exactly as he did at the beginning of DOS? Remember he was shown to be clothed after death so that his soul wouldn't escape.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now you are trolling. You are not addressing each one of my points.

The retcon says otherwise. It shows he always had protrusions before the events of DOS. He was even shown clothed immediately after his death resembling his original DOS self. How do you explain away him having them before his death and how do explain them putting clothes on him where he appears exactly as he did at the beginning of DOS?
It's not a recton, it's simply fleshing out a character who was introduced with no back story of any kind. Yes he had them before, then he died in a spectacular fasion that evidently caused him to assume something of an evolutionary "throw back" form. Then as things progressed his evolution kicked back in and became more and more like he was previously.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not a recton, it's simply fleshing out a character who was introduced with no back story of any kind. Yes he had them before, then he died in a spectacular fasion that evidently caused him to assume something of an evolutionary "throw back" form. Then as things progressed his evolution kicked back in and became more and more like he was previously.

It's a retcon if you assume he didn't have protrusions at the beginning of DOS. He clearly had them right before his death. This is a canon fact. Now you can troll and ignore on panel evidence if you want. Basically you are saying that the comics explaining DD before the events of DOS isn't canon?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's a retcon if you assume he didn't have protrusions at the beginning of DOS. He clearly had them right before his death. This is a canon fact. Now you can troll and ignore on panel evidence if you want. Basically you are saying that the comics explaining DD before the events of DOS isn't canon?
It's not a recton if there's a perfectly logical reason he might not have them. There's no contradiction involved in what I'm saying.

Originally posted by darthgoober

I specifically said that we saw the bulges from the protrusions on his knuckles growing as he was punching away on that box, so I'm failing to see your point with that first scan. My point is that there was NO bulges shown on his shoulders, knees, and elbows. So no he didn't have them.

And I'm fully aware that his bones are part of his adaptive abilities, that's kinda my point. He emerged from the ground WITHOUT adaptions that he had before being boxed up so there's reason to doubt his being at that level since we know his powers are solar based like Supes and he didn't show the same level of power during the DOS arc that he demonstrated in flashback stories.
He can grow them. I have shown this. They are not shown as linked to any level of power. If you have any proof they are, please share.

You are correct, he was not at the same level power, he was even more formidable by the time he got to Superman. This is the very nature of his character. His past showings were very deliberate in letting the reader know how powerful this character was before encountering Superman.

If you have any proof he was any weaker, please share it.

Because the comics completely substantiate what I'm saying and do nothing for yours.

I can't recall offhand, and while I could research it, I don't see a reason to as it's not necessary part of any debate I'm having.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's not a recton if there's a perfectly logical reason he might not have them. There's no contradiction involved in what I'm saying.

But following the story, DD died with full protrusions and was shown dead with full protrusions. He was also shown clothed immediately resembling his original DOS self.
There is no mention anywhere explaining his protrusions somehow disappearing.
Logical explanations of things not shown are rooted in writer's intentions. Otherwise you are making stuff up ( which is a form of trolling).

Originally posted by Juntai
He can grow them. I have shown this. They are not shown as linked to any level of power. If you have any proof they are, please share.

You are correct, he was not at the same level power, he was even more formidable by the time he got to Superman. This is the very nature of his character. His past showings were very deliberate in letting the reader know how powerful this character was before encountering Superman.

If you have any proof he was any weaker, please share it.

Because the comics completely substantiate what I'm saying and do nothing for yours.


I've never said that he was unable to grow them, I said he didn't have them when he emerged from the ground even though he had them in the flashback stories. That shows that he was lacking physical evolutions that he had before. I mean it's not like DD suddenly thought to himself "You know, these bone thingys are ugly, I think I'll retract them for a while".

And the comics DO offer substance to what I'm saying. We know he's a solar powered being from Krypton that evolves but came out of the ground without some of the adaptions he'd had previously. So it doesn't make sense to assume he was equal to his previous self when he came out of the ground since he was lacking his most prominent evolutions unless he actually somehow demonstrated the same level of power. And not only did he not demonstrate that level of power, he FAILED at killing Blue Beatle, Ice, and powerless Booster Gold even though the guy has no concept of "holding back". And as I pointed out to abhi, Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD. But I seriously doubt you'd credit the Warrior with being able to duplicate DD's striking feats from the flashback stories.


Originally posted by Juntai
I can't recall offhand, and while I could research it, I don't see a reason to as it's not necessary part of any debate I'm having.
Well I'm not trying to push you into researching it, but it DOES potentially factor into the discussion at hand. In the same scene in the novel Supes was talking about how he felt drained for a while after he got hit by a nuke(or something like that) and the scientist said that it was because his power reserves were so depleted afterwards. He said that if Supes had tried to use his HV during that period he'd have been feeling even worse. But again, you don't have to look into if you don't want to(I'm not about to demand that someone do research against their interest), I have no problem exploring other avenues to find out.

Originally posted by h1a8
But following the story, DD died with full protrusions and was shown dead with full protrusions. He was also shown clothed immediately resembling his original DOS self.
There is no mention anywhere explaining his protrusions somehow disappearing.
Logical explanations of things not shown are rooted in writer's intentions. Otherwise you are making stuff up ( which is a form of trolling).
Then maybe they did something physically to him, Hell I don't know. All I know is that it can't be definitively said that he came out of the ground equal to his old self because his old self had the protrusions and what came out of the ground DIDN'T.

Anything outside of writer's intentions simply doesn't exist. It's called making stuff up. There is no logical explanation hinted by the writer's to explain how DD protrusions suddenly disappeared after being clothed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Anything outside of writer's intentions simply doesn't exist. It's called making stuff up. There is no logical explanation hinted by the writer's to explain how DD protrusions suddenly disappeared after being clothed.
h1 I don't know who told you that you're the authority on what logic is allowed to be used on KMC, but whoever it was... lied to you. Logical deduction is as valid a tool as any.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I've never said that he was unable to grow them, I said he didn't have them when he emerged from the ground even though he had them in the flashback stories. That shows that he was lacking physical evolutions that he had before. I mean it's not like DD suddenly thought to himself "You know, these bone thingys are ugly, I think I'll retract them for a while".

And the comics DO offer substance to what I'm saying. We know he's a solar powered being from Krypton that evolves but came out of the ground without some of the adaptions he'd had previously. So it doesn't make sense to assume he was equal to his previous self when he came out of the ground since he was lacking his most prominent evolutions unless he actually somehow demonstrated the same level of power. And not only did he not demonstrate that level of power, he FAILED at killing Blue Beatle, Ice, and powerless Booster Gold even though the guy has no concept of "holding back". And as I pointed out to abhi, Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD. But I seriously doubt you'd credit the Warrior with being able to duplicate DD's striking feats from the flashback stories.


You're missing a lot though.

1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.

Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/

Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg

2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight , is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.

His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg

ergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.


3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.

We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpg

The moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.


Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.

The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.

Originally posted by darthgoober
h1 I don't know who told you that you're the authority on what logic is allowed to be used on KMC, but whoever it was... lied to you. Logical deduction is as valid a tool as any.

Originally posted by h1a8
Anything outside of writer's intentions simply doesn't exist. It's called making stuff up. There is no logical explanation hinted by the writer's to explain how DD protrusions suddenly disappeared after being clothed.

Don't you ever get tired of smelling your own farts?

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Don't you ever get tired of smelling your own farts? He loves farting under the covers and smelling the shit out of it.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're missing a lot though.

1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.

Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/

Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg

2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight , is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.

His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg

ergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.


3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.

We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpg

The moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.


Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.

The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.



Going by his main stories, DOS, Hunter/Prey, Doomsday Wars, his origins, he's a beast. Even his low ends involve being manhandled by dozens of Kryptonians, or blasted by Imperiex (Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..)

yeah the myth that dos doomsday was 'weak' are pretty ridiculous and just goes to show the ignorance of many posters in the forum.

Another thing to note, though I may well be wrong.

He was holding back (for want of a better term) against Booster et al...because he specifically hated Kryps, right? Had a hard on for Supes specifically.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Another thing to note, though I may well be wrong.

He was holding back (for want of a better term) against Booster et al...because he specifically hated Kryps, right? Had a hard on for Supes specifically.

We know from H/P that when DD sees Superman (and presumably all Kryptonians), he "sees" in his mind his creator Bertron. That paints a specific target on Supes' back, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it implies that he fights harder against him or that he holds back against others. I understand the argument for it completely, but I definitely think the evidence is too weak to consider it a fact.

Originally posted by cdtm
(Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..) Those people must be ignorant, then, because Superman DIDN'T survive Imperiex's attack. He was 'ported from the field by Darkseid BEFORE the full breadth of the blast struck him:
http://i.imgur.com/tYlxC2k.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GglLXBU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dcOalOw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dxw30m4.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rAeZgXI.jpg



Originally posted by Cogito
We know from H/P that when DD sees Superman (and presumably all Kryptonians), he "sees" in his mind his creator Bertron. That paints a specific target on Supes' back, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it implies that he fights harder against him or that he holds back against others. I understand the argument for it completely, but I definitely think the evidence is too weak to consider it a fact. DD certainly doesn't hold back against non-Kryptonians.

*see Doomsday vs. GLs*
*see Doomsday vs. Mayhem*
*see Doomsday vs. Darkseid*
*see Doomsday vs. Apokolips*
*see Doomsday vs. Radiant*
*see Doomsday vs. JLA (both versions)*

etc. etc.

Btw, just want to address a point about Doomsday being Kryptonian.

Bretton specifically said the baby was from a different planet from the scientists, so not Kryptonian.

Originally posted by Galan007
DD certainly doesn't hold back against non-Kryptonians.

*see Doomsday vs. GLs*
*see Doomsday vs. Mayhem*
*see Doomsday vs. Darkseid*
*see Doomsday vs. Apokolips*
*see Doomsday vs. Radiant*
*see Doomsday vs. JLA (both versions)*

etc. etc.

I completely agree, but it could be argued that DD could (and did) stomp through these feebs while half-assing it. I think that's silly, but that was the point of my comment.

Going by his showings vs. Gor, Galactus, Celestials, Mikaboshi, Mephisto etc. It could be argued that Thor holds back on anything Skyfather and below.

Yup.

Even when he's being beaten, whereas as soon as you piss DD off, he shreds you.

Originally posted by cdtm


Going by his main stories, DOS, Hunter/Prey, Doomsday Wars, his origins, he's a beast. Even his low ends involve being manhandled by dozens of Kryptonians, or blasted by Imperiex (Something people often lowball on account of Superman himself surviving the same blast with tattered clothing..)
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah the myth that dos doomsday was 'weak' are pretty ridiculous and just goes to show the ignorance of many posters in the forum.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm in no way suggesting that DOS DD was "weak", simply weakER. DC took everyone down a peg following COIE but then immediately began a constant power creep for all if it's characters. The further from COIE they got, the more powerful the characters became. Supes himself recieved significant upgrading SPECIFICALLY after the DOS saga. As I said in my initial post, if we scale the characters involved to the levels they were portrayed at in later days then DD would be considered an absolute beast, but if we're compartmentilizing him to the arc and era of the writing(like we do with WWH, Sentry, and orther arc specific characters), he's not nearly as formitable. Again, characters like Supes and Flash(I believe) weren't even able to go FTL back then... THAT'S how differently the characters were being portrayed back then.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm in no way suggesting that DOS DD was "weak", simply weakER. DC took everyone down a peg following COIE but then immediately began a constant power creep for all if it's characters. The further from COIE they got, the more powerful the characters became. Supes himself recieved significant upgrading SPECIFICALLY after the DOS saga. As I said in my initial post, if we scale the characters involved to the levels they were portrayed at in later days then DD would be considered an absolute beast, but if we're compartmentilizing him to the arc and era of the writing(like we do with WWH, Sentry, and orther arc specific characters), he's not nearly as formitable. Again, characters like Supes and Flash(I believe) weren't even able to go FTL back then... THAT'S how differently the characters were being portrayed back then. The problem with this idea is Doomsday's history, The Guardian, the Radiant etc, who all had shown more power than Superman. And in those encounters, just the same as Superman's, Doomsday was taken to his limit and stopped. And from then on was even stronger.

Doomsday fought to his limit and died to Superman and we ended up with Hunter/Prey.

This means the version that Superman fought was even mightier than the version from 250k years ago. Superman took him to his even higher limit and punched him to death in the street.


Superman prior to Doomsday, yes, was weaker than he was post-Death because of his mental blocks, then he started doing consistently more amazing things as he learned to control the depths of his power. However, he belted out everything he had at Doomsday.

Just as the Radiant did.

Just as the Guardian did.


And each time Doomsday is increased.


The application of Doomsday into Superman's story is what changed post-Crisis comics forever in many ways.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're missing a lot though.

1) While Doomsday is kryptonian created, he is not Kryptonian. He doesn't gain power under the sun like Superman. He is written to use it as sustenance. His strength is written as being derived specifically from his evolution and adaptations.

Described here in his origin;
https://osck.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/who-is-doomsday-hes-coming-to-smallville-maybe/doomsday-origin-2/

Described here on panel:
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307081-9.jpg

While not born on Krypton, if the baby was taken/created from the stock of the people who'd eventually settle on Krypton and become Kryptonians, he's still basically Kryptonian though.


Originally posted by Juntai
2) Doomsday does get stronger as he gets angry. However his base alone still seems to have him ranked among the most powerful beings in the universe, we never saw him appear weak at any point. Though his bones seem to have little to do with that. He can just control them. We've seen it on panel. To think he didn't achieve his upper limit against Superman, who pummeled him to the death in the street after a long fight , is just false. Doomsday as written pushes himself until his limit, dies, and comes back even stronger.

His strength being amplified by rage is described here.
http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307129-4.jpg

ergo, the Doomsday that fought Superman was even stronger than the one than from the flashbacks of 250,000 years ago.

I'm in no way suggesting that DD has ever been "weak". Hell even the Thing's not actually weak. But we base a lot of how we view characters on what they actually SHOW in any given story. By the same token, most people assume that the Molecule Man that Sentry defeated was weaker than normal even though there was no specific mention that he was weakened in that story. DD's lack of bone protrusions is simply an indication that he was DIFFERENT than he was in the flashback stories. If we know he's different via lacking some of what he had before, it makes not sense to assume that he came out of the ground better(or even equal) to what he showed in the flashbacks.


Originally posted by Juntai
3) Not killing Booster and Guy and other named characters doesn't constitute him being less strong, only using less than maximum effort at that moment. He was strolling through because they were no threat to him. He stopped doing this as his battle with Superman raged on.

We saw this same effect in the GL storyline.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11119/111196008/4307125-1.jpg

The moment he ran into a challenge, he cranked it up.


Superman took him to his upper limit and pummeled him to the death in the street.

The effect of this made Doomsday essentially invincible afterwards. Only entropy was able to defeat him after Superman.

One of the most basic things about DD is that he NEVER holds back though. He's never really using less than maximum effort. It can be said that he doesn't FOCUS on absolute destruction, but particularly against Booster Gold he WAS focused on taking the guy out. He didn't casually backhand or anything like that, he subjected Booster to multiple strikes and even slammed a car door on his head/neck. Now I have no problem viewing his failure to kill named heroes with the standard suspension of disbelief required to follow comics, but that kind of focused offense from a being who was tearing through GLs and New Gods with casual ease DOES at the very least throw some skepticism on his level of power. Especially when Supes himself specifically noted that the Warrior hit harder than DD.

Originally posted by Juntai
The problem with this idea is Doomsday's history, The Guardian, the Radiant etc, who all had shown more power than Superman. And in those encounters, just the same as Superman's, Doomsday was taken to his limit and stopped. And from then on was even stronger.

Doomsday fought to his limit and died to Superman and we ended up with Hunter/Prey.

This means the version that Superman fought was even mightier than the version from 250k years ago. Superman took him to his even higher limit and punched him to death in the street.


Superman prior to Doomsday, yes, was weaker than he was post-Death because of his mental blocks, then he started doing consistently more amazing things as he learned to control the depths of his power. However, he belted out everything he had at Doomsday.

Just as the Radiant did.

Just as the Guardian did.


And each time Doomsday is increased.


The application of Doomsday into Superman's story is what changed post-Crisis comics forever in many ways.
Unlike the time when he got boxed up though, he still mainted his protrusions and wasn't locked away from solar energy for thousands and thousands of years.

Originally posted by darthgoober
While not born on Krypton, if the baby was taken/created from the stock of the people who'd eventually settle on Krypton and become Kryptonians, he's still basically Kryptonian though.

This infant, not native to this world of yours....

DD was taken from somewhere else. And by referring to Krypton as 'yours' (when speaking to the Kryp scientists), it is explicitly NOT of the same stock as the Kryp settlers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


This infant, not native to this world of yours....

DD was taken from somewhere else. And by referring to Krypton as 'yours' (when speaking to the Kryp scientists), it is explicitly NOT of the same stock as the Kryp settlers.
A valid idea, but then again are we really sure he's saying that the infant isn't of their native world rather the world they're conducting the experiment on? Personally I think the idea that the infant ended up being solar powered similar to the way Kryptonians would be an awful big coincidence if it was just taken off some random planet.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A valid idea, but then again are we really sure he's saying that the infant isn't of their native world rather the world they're conducting the experiment on? Personally I think the idea that the infant ended up being solar powered similar to the way Kryptonians would be an awful big coincidence if it was just taken off some random planet.

The world they conducted the experiments on was Krypton (Waverider's words to Supes).

The work that Bertie did, 'stimulated that planet's interest in genetics' (Supes' words to Wavey).

He was talking to Kryptonians, telling them that he was not native to this world (i.e. the one they were standing on, Krypton).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The world they conducted the experiments on was Krypton (Waverider's words to Supes).

The work that Bertie did, 'stimulated that planet's interest in genetics' (Supes' words to Wavey).

He was talking to Kryptonians, telling them that he was not native to this world (i.e. the one they were standing on, Krypton).
Right, but thre were no actual native born "Kryptonians" at that point because the world was too inhospitable. The people there weren't actually "Kryptonians" yet because they weren't natives to the planet. So a baby drawn/created from the same stock as the settlers would still simultaneously of the same species yet not of that world. Like bringing a baby from Earth to a human scientific colony on Mars.

I love you blatantly and outright ignore evidence to try to push your bullshit agenda.

You've gone very deep into the area of trolling now.

We actually have several examples of verifiable proof of him dying and being stronger when he comes back. After the Radiant, After the Guardian, after Superman. All who pushed him to the limit of his power and then used a final blow to put him down.

He evolves, and comes back stronger than before. It is the basis of his stories. it is the nature of his character. It is written in his bio as the source of his power.

We also have several examples of him not being "all out" all the time.
From his encounter with the GL, where he got challenged and amped it up until he won.
To walking over GLs until encounter a Guardian and ramping it up he was taken to his limit and stopped. A continious ramping of power over the course of the story.
From his casually walking over JLA members as if they were insects, and then encountering Superman, and ramping it up the entire fight until he hit his limit and Superman punched him to death in the middle of town. A continuous ramping of his power until he was ended. And then came back stronger in H/P. So strong only Entropy could stop him.


You're also still trying to push this bones and sunlight shit as evidence.

Doomsday's power is not linked to his bones, nor is it linked to the sun.

I have given on panel and bio examples of sun being said to be his sustenance , and his actual power being listed as separate from this idea. That his power and strength is specifically said to be derived from evolution and rage. I haven't seen any evidence that Doomsday gains power from the Photonucleic Effect like Kryptonians do.

Conversely we also saw later down the road, after his death to Imperiex Doomsday actually WAS spliced with Kryptonian DNA to rebuild him, and gained weakness to Kryptonite until he evolved passed it. This further suggests, beyond the fact he wasn't from Krypton at all, that the common Kryptonian attributes were not part of him already.


I have also given examples of his bones being grown at will. Which is exactly what was done when he was still underground punching at the wall. Or Superman remarking his bones grew in Hunter/Prey. Or using them as projectile weapons in Hunter/Prey.


Every piece of information available to Doomsday's story fits into this model.

On the flip side, you have zero evidence to support your agenda you keep pushing that he was somehow weaker. That he doesn't ever hold back. That his bones are identifiers of his power.

I mean literally nothing you have tried to use supports you while you sit here and ignore the facts and scans.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Right, but thre were no actual native born "Kryptonians" at that point because the world was too inhospitable. The people there weren't actually "Kryptonians" yet because they weren't natives to the planet. So a baby drawn/created from the same stock as the settlers would still simultaneously of the same species yet not of that world. Like bringing a baby from Earth to a human scientific colony on Mars.

But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?





It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.



DD is not Kryptonian.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?





It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.



DD is not Kryptonian.

Originally posted by Juntai
I love you blatantly and outright ignore evidence to try to push your bullshit agenda.

You've gone very deep into the area of trolling now.

We actually have several examples of verifiable proof of him dying and being stronger when he comes back. After the Radiant, After the Guardian, after Superman. All who pushed him to the limit of his power and then used a final blow to put him down.

He evolves, and comes back stronger than before. It is the basis of his stories. it is the nature of his character. It is written in his bio as the source of his power.

We also have several examples of him not being "all out" all the time.
From his encounter with the GL, where he got challenged and amped it up until he won.
To walking over GLs until encounter a Guardian and ramping it up he was taken to his limit and stopped. A continious ramping of power over the course of the story.
From his casually walking over JLA members as if they were insects, and then encountering Superman, and ramping it up the entire fight until he hit his limit and Superman punched him to death in the middle of town. A continuous ramping of his power until he was ended. And then came back stronger in H/P. So strong only Entropy could stop him.


You're also still trying to push this bones and sunlight shit as evidence.

Doomsday's power is not linked to his bones, nor is it linked to the sun.

I have given on panel and bio examples of sun being said to be his sustenance , and his actual power being listed as separate from this idea. That his power and strength is specifically said to be derived from evolution and rage. I haven't seen any evidence that Doomsday gains power from the Photonucleic Effect like Kryptonians do.

Conversely we also saw later down the road, after his death to Imperiex Doomsday actually WAS spliced with Kryptonian DNA to rebuild him, and gained weakness to Kryptonite until he evolved passed it. This further suggests, beyond the fact he wasn't from Krypton at all, that the common Kryptonian attributes were not part of him already.


I have also given examples of his bones being grown at will. Which is exactly what was done when he was still underground punching at the wall. Or Superman remarking his bones grew in Hunter/Prey. Or using them as projectile weapons in Hunter/Prey.


Every piece of information available to Doomsday's story fits into this model.

On the flip side, you have zero evidence to support your agenda you keep pushing that he was somehow weaker. That he doesn't ever hold back. That his bones are identifiers of his power.

I mean literally nothing you have tried to use supports you while you sit here and ignore the facts and scans.

Since when is simply disagreeing with someone trolling? I'm not ignoring what you're putting forth, I'm just acknowledging things that you reject in regards to my interpretation.

Tell you what, I think we both know that we can go back and forth rehashing these same points until one or both of us gets sick of repeating ourselves and simply stops talking about it at this juncture. And I think that we both know that even if that happens, this exact same arguement is going to crop up again the next time someone starts referencing the Guardian fight for DOS DD because now that I've opened this Pandora's Box there are going to be others even beyond myself that are going to run with it. So here's what I propose... You and I have a very special Battlezone on the topic. Not a standard Battlezone where the only "prize" is bragging rights for the voctor, one where the outcome actually affects things going forward. There'll be 2 questions on the table...

1. Are DD's flashback arcs valid to use in threads involving DOS DD.

2. Is the answer to question 1 so definitive that attempting to argue to the contrary in future threads a form of trolling and therefor against the rules.

This will mean that there are 3 possible outcomes, ALL of which will lead to more productive debates on the topic. The first, is an absolute victory for you which means you and others will never have to hear the kinds of arguments that I'm making again. The second, is an absolute victory for me which will mean that I and others will never have to deal with stuff like the Guardian fight in threads involving DOS DD again. And the third, is acknowledgment that both sides have valid points that are open to debate. This won't really stop future arguments, but it will curtail the dismissing of potentially valid arguments as trolling and force people to acknowledge the other side even if they disagree which means that the debates can actually move forward rather than stalling out when one side doesn't approve of what's being said.

Since forum policy/standards are on the line, we can ask Pr, Newjak, and Digi to be the judges since all three are impartial and well versed in forum rules and standards.

If you're not interested I extend the invitation to others. I'm willing to take on virtually any knowledgeable Supes/DD fan, but it's probably best that the other side not be abhi because the mess our previous Battlezone devolved into will likely prevent the judges from going along with the whole thing.

But the root of the argument, is that flashback scenes are invalid because DoS DD was weaker than in the flashbacks, due to him being Kryptonian and thus, starved of sunlight for many many years.

When in fact, he's not Kryp at all.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But, as he said, it was THIS world of YOURS. Bertie arrived, and there's no mention that the Kryps were a colony from somewhere else. You're saying there were no native born Kryps?





It was only THAT area of the planet which was inhospitable to life.



DD is not Kryptonian.

Nice, I missed that stuff. Still, as I said I consider it to be quite a coincidence that the baby developed the solar powered traits of kryptonians without being a kryptonian himself. Entirely possible because everyone knows that huge coincidences like that happen all the time in comics. Not to mention the fact that being forced to evolve on Krypton could be part of what caused him to evolve that similar trait.

However, Bertron himself wasn't a native as you pointed out. And DD basically sees Supes as Betron BECAUSE Supes is a Kryptonian. This would seem to suggest that even though Betron isn't from Krypton, he's still basically made of the same stock. Like maybe the colonization had been going on successfully for a few generations, but they were still pretty much the same as what they had been before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But the root of the argument, is that flashback scenes are invalid because DoS DD was weaker than in the flashbacks, due to him being Kryptonian and thus, starved of sunlight for many many years.

When in fact, he's not Kryp at all.
His being a solar powered being doesn't necessarily have to come from his being Kryptonian though. It's established on panel independantly from his place of origin. I just interpreted it as him basically being Kryptonian because it was the most obvious explanation.