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No bfr. These characters are operating at their daily levels. On average levels that we see consistently. Anything depicted as something that is above their average diaplayed power level can not be used here. Who's taking this? If you post a scan of Surfer turning a Herald into ants, you have to prove that it's within his normal, everyday power level to do. Same with super speed, if you claim that MMH will fight Surfer constantly at nano second speeds, we need proof of him doing this on a consistent bases.

How would you define and prove 'consistent' basis? Honest and serious question here.

Superman is the only one who displays consistent superspeed with a consistent strength advantage over either Thor or Surfer (Thor is consistent with strength and lightning, Surfer is usually just energy blasts).

J'onn is useless.

Originally posted by carver9
No bfr. These characters are operating at their daily levels. On average levels that we see consistently. Anything depicted as something that is above their average diaplayed power level can not be used here. Who's taking this? If you post a scan of Surfer turning a Herald into ants, you have to prove that it's within his normal, everyday power level to do. Same with super speed, if you claim that MMH will fight Surfer constantly at nano second speeds, we need proof of him doing this on a consistent bases.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How would you define and prove 'consistent' basis? Honest and serious question here.

All you have to do is go by how the characters are displayed in comics on a consistent basis. Thor would go hammer cuff most of the fight with some lightning, Surfer usually is a blaster who uses a little versatility most of the time, Superman is a brawler who sometimes uses heat vision bit almost never use ice breath.

https://i.imgur.com/TMYbU8c.gif

Originally posted by carver9
Superman is a brawler who sometimes uses heat vision bit almost never use ice breath.
That....basically shows you know nothing about the characters you're talking about.....

Originally posted by -Pr-
https://i.imgur.com/TMYbU8c.gif

Lmmfao

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
That....basically shows you know nothing about the characters you're talking about.....

So he doesn't brawl most of the time in comics? Maybe I'm wrong and we can debate it. Who are you going for?

Originally posted by carver9
So he doesn't brawl most of the time in comics? Maybe I'm wrong and we can debate it. Who are you going for?
Well going by the rule that says a power that used like a dozen times is enough to say the character will use the ability in a fihgt



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

Superman has used HV and freeze breath well beyond dozen times, and it's just counting the post-crisis/COIE onward comics

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well going by the rule that says a power that used like a dozen times is enough to say the character will use the ability in a fihgt



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

Superman has used HV and freeze breath well beyond dozen times, and it's just counting the post-crisis/COIE onward comics

Lol... I never said that he won't use heat vision or ice breath, but he would approach the fight more often in a brawling fashion. Also, thanks for the quote from PR saying a scene needs to be done at least a dozen times for it to be a legitimate ability for the character. I know someone on here that use a showing that happens once as credibility for the character(s) natural abilities. You've helped me and don't even know it.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... I never said that he won't use heat vision or ice breath, but he would approach the fight more often in a brawling fashion.
Well, actually, you said
Originally posted by carver9
Superman is a brawler who sometimes uses heat vision bit almost never use ice breath.
Which is not true. Does Superman use his fists more often than HV/Freeze Breath? Yes. Does Superman rarely use HV/Freeze Breath? No.

And according to the rule. Superman uses his HV/FB actually is a consistent thing in character

Originally posted by carver9
Superman is a brawler who sometimes uses heat vision bit almost never use ice breath.
To be fair, neither Heat Vision and his Ice Breath would faze Silver Surfer or Thor, both of whom have withstood more extreme temperatures. The only one in this fight that would succumb to either (particularly Heat Vision) would be J'onn, and he's on Superman's team.

Originally posted by carver9
All you have to do is go by how the characters are displayed in comics on a consistent basis. Thor would go hammer cuff most of the fight with some lightning, Surfer usually is a blaster who uses a little versatility most of the time, Superman is a brawler who sometimes uses heat vision bit almost never use ice breath.
That....doesn't answer my question, lol.

What is YOUR definition of 'consistent'? 'A dozen times' is mentioned in the rules - but how often has Hulk (as an example) gone WBH? Not trying to trap you, am trying to use examples so you'd understand. How often has Storm, since the 70s, flash frozen someone?

How often has Surfer actually used someone's radiation weakness against another? Not even just threatened.

In short, how are you defining average and consistent?

Originally posted by Astner
To be fair, neither Heat Vision and his Ice Breath would faze Silver Surfer or Thor, both of whom have withstood more extreme temperatures. The only one in this fight that would succumb to either (particularly Heat Vision) would be J'onn, and he's on Superman's team.
Question :
How hot do you believe Superman's hv can be?
His freeze breath has frozen Bizarro (who is definitely not weaker than Thor).

Hot enough to make Astner start touching himself in public

OFF THE SCALE

Originally posted by h1a8
How hot do you believe Superman's hv can be?
Based off official values? roughly 5,000 degrees.

Superman states that his Heat Vision can't make the core of the Earth hotter than it is.

https://i.imgur.com/EesX7dpm.jpg

- Justice League (2016) #3

https://i.imgur.com/Myji0XK.png

Wraith states that the max heat of Superman's Heat Vision is 5,000 degrees.

https://i.imgur.com/myh2HXBm.jpg

- Superman Unchained (2013) #4

Originally posted by h1a8
His freeze breath has frozen Bizarro (who is definitely not weaker than Thor).
...it's ice. Not magic ice either. Thor would walk through it as if it was foam.

Originally posted by Astner
Based off official values? roughly 5,000 degrees.

Superman states that his Heat Vision can't make the core of the Earth hotter than it is.

https://i.imgur.com/EesX7dpm.jpg

- Justice League (2016) #3

https://i.imgur.com/Myji0XK.png

Wraith states that the max heat of Superman's Heat Vision is 5,000 degrees.

https://i.imgur.com/myh2HXBm.jpg

- Superman Unchained (2013) #4


...it's ice. Not magic ice either. Thor would walk through it as if it was foam.
Those are low showings.
Superman's hv has reached temperatures beyond a trillion degrees.
And you know 5000 degrees can't be right since Superman has nearly vaporized steel before (melting it almost instantly). The melting point of steel is about 1400 degrees Celsius.

Ice can be harder than steel depending on the temperature and pressure of it.
You are only familiar with common ice that's a little below 0 degrees. Celsius.

Plus this is comic alien ice, just as potent as magic ice.
Freezing Bizarro and WW are its feats.

Only carver will say that surfer fighting at nano seconds is an everyday thing but Superman using heat vision is not.

Originally posted by h1a8
Those are low showings.
As far as I know those are the only official numbers we have.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman's hv has reached temperatures beyond a trillion degrees.
No. If it had it would be plastered all over this forum.

Originally posted by h1a8
And you know 5000 degrees can't be right since Superman has nearly vaporized steel before (melting it almost instantly). The melting point of steel is about 1400 degrees Celsius.
Like you said, the melting point of steel is 1,400 C, and the boiling point of steel is 2,500 C (with some deviation depending on the kind of steel) both of which are notably below 5,000 C.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ice can be harder than steel depending on the temperature and pressure of it.
You are only familiar with common ice that's a little below 0 degrees. Celsius.
What? Ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs, steel ranges from 4 - 8 Mohs (depending on the alloy, tempering, etc.). Steel is also a lot a lot tougher than ice.

Also, the colder ice gets the more fragile it becomes. Because there's less internal movement to absorb impacts making it more prone to cracking.

Originally posted by h1a8
Plus this is comic alien ice, just as potent as magic ice.
Freezing Bizarro and WW are its feats.
Come on. You're smarter than this.

Originally posted by Astner
The first scan is from an unrelated story that isn't referenced in the Justice League (2016) run, furthermore, there's nothing suggesting that Superman is weakened in this story.

The second scan is more relevant because it's superimposed on both of the stories I cited. But we don't know what this weakness entailed. It certainly not grounds for arbitrary extrapolation. But even if we're being extremely generous and allow you to double the temperature (because he was split in two). It's still nowhere near enough to cause any harm to either Thor or the Silver Surfer.


Absolute zero is roughly -270 degrees Celsius, supposing air is the medium and the outdoor temperature is 20 degrees we're looking at 290 degrees for Superman's Heat Vision here. Needless to say, that's even less impressive.
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That....doesn't answer my question, lol.

What is YOUR definition of 'consistent'? 'A dozen times' is mentioned in the rules - but how often has Hulk (as an example) gone WBH? Not trying to trap you, am trying to use examples so you'd understand. How often has Storm, since the 70s, flash frozen someone?

How often has Surfer actually used someone's radiation weakness against another? Not even just threatened.

In short, how are you defining average and consistent?

Who uses WBH in a regular Hulk thread? I don't do it. If Surfer doesn't use weakness exploitation enough, then it can't be used here. If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this. Simple, you have to prove the character use said abilities and its not a one, 2 or 3 off.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no?

Isn't that second scan hyperbole. Kinda like statements of Hulk strength being immeasurable?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)
It doesn't matter because it's an unrelated story that's not referenced.

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd
This doesn't provide any new information.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category
What is it with the infinity and people's brains shutting down when discussing it? Superman doesn't have infinite power. If he did he'd never struggle with anything.

Moreover, what you're referring to here with absolute zero proper is that it would require infinitely many steps to reach (form the Third Law of Thermodynamics), and thus infinite energy. Another way to phrase this is that absolute zero proper isn't possible. It would also go against Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (even after a finite amount of steps).

But "absolute zero" is also used to describe conditions close to absolute zero proper, so if you're off by a percentage or so, you may still refer to it as absolute zero temperatures, at which point it's not particularly impressive.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius
I'm not sure why a news reporter engaging in hyperbole saying "it's off the charts by any standard scientific measure," would account for anything. Especially after comparing it to an industrial laser and pointing out that it's derived from the Sun.

Give me an actual number, or a feat where you don't have to make any notable assumptions.

Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter because it's an unrelated story that's not referenced.

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.


This doesn't provide any new information.


What is it with the infinity and people's brains shutting down when discussing it? Superman doesn't have infinite power. If he did he'd never struggle with anything.

Moreover, what you're referring to here with absolute zero proper is that it would require infinitely many steps to reach (form the Third Law of Thermodynamics), and thus infinite energy. Another way to phrase this is that absolute zero proper isn't possible. It would also go against Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (even after a finite amount of steps).

But "absolute zero" is also used to describe conditions close to absolute zero proper, so if you're off by a percentage or so, you may still refer to it as absolute zero temperatures, at which point it's not particularly impressive.


I'm not sure why a news reporter engaging in hyperbole saying "it's off the charts by any standard scientific measure," would account for anything. Especially after comparing it to an industrial laser and pointing out that it's derived from the Sun.

Give me an actual number, or a feat where you don't have to make any notable assumptions.
I'm not sure why it couldn't be used there? Since you seem to accept the Superman Reborn arc without any issue

Well, it proves that Superman was weakened in terms of powers. So the showings you're referring to use as the maximum output of Superman's HV is a bit iffy(and that hasn't brought up about "these are low showings" bit)

Yeah, but on the contrary, I suppose I also could say that you seem to like chalk all the showings that you don't like as hyperboles. Despite Cold(who has been established to use absolute zero gun for decades and sometimes can even go below absolute zero temperature) specifically referred to his cold gun as minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit in that scene, a very specific and scientific number for absolute zero

The news reporter scene also can be argued similarly. I also could say it immediately points out that there may be no limit for the energy HV could charge supports the "it's off the charts by any standard scientific measure" statement

And the same critics to the last statement of yours. Since I also can say you're ignoring the actual number( Cold's very specific number) and makes assumptions(the "that statement is a hyperbole" habit)
But we did have the showing that Thor got burnt by the Sun, so I'm not sure your initial statements that HV wouldn't bother Thor are accurate
https://i.imgur.com/8C8XvDp.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/lvvpY8U.jpeg

Edit:
And that's not going to the department where Superman could simply use HV to burn the air in Thor's lungs argument(HV would still bother/faze/pose as a threat to Thor) argument

Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter because it's an unrelated story that's not referenced.

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.

Just remembered, this opinion seems a bit contradictive to an opinion you made not long ago(relatively), if I'm not misunderstanding what you mean
Originally posted by Astner
I don't get this. There's one vague statement, that's it. And the only reason there's any credibility to it is because he was recently strengthen by the exposure to a white star. Let's at the very least wait until he gets some impressive feats.

Not to mention the Fail-safe Arc was retconned to occur after Dark Crisis meaning that the Superman is getting his ass whopped by a robot (which looked bad enough even when he was weakened) is supposed to be even more powerful than he's ever been.

Originally posted by carver9
Who uses WBH in a regular Hulk thread? I don't do it. If Surfer doesn't use weakness exploitation enough, then it can't be used here. If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this. Simple, you have to prove the character use said abilities and its not a one, 2 or 3 off.

So like, 4 times? That's what I'm trying to get at here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So like, 4 times? That's what I'm trying to get at here.

Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here?

Originally posted by carver9
If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this.

Not this again...

Are you trying to give all of us the flashbacks from the Tinfoil Wars?

🤣🤣🤣

Originally posted by carver9
Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here?

Yeah so what's consistent? That's my original question. Because it just then boils down to who's read more comics, rather than appearances.

For example, you and I both know abhi has probably got a file/folder somewhere filled with nothing but Surfer and Thor low showings. Hell, the Thor Vs street levellers thread is proof of this.

So do we say consistently, Thor is slower than a street? It's certainly more than a 1,2,3 off. Would you say Thor has more showings than Superman? Probably not, which mewns it's CONSISTENT (as per what I'm getting from you thus far) that Thor is only slightly above human speed, if that.

And then you just KNOW that abhi will have a folder of Surfer getting drained dry (mmmm). And another folder of Superman absorbing energy - certainly more than 1,2,3 times.

So are you going to agree with him that Surfer Vs Superman, Superman drains all of Surfer's energy? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Originally posted by Astner
As far as I know those are the only official numbers we have.


No. If it had it would be plastered all over this forum.


Like you said, the melting point of steel is 1,400 C, and the boiling point of steel is 2,500 C (with some deviation depending on the kind of steel) both of which are notably below 5,000 C.


What? Ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs, steel ranges from 4 - 8 Mohs (depending on the alloy, tempering, etc.). Steel is also a lot a lot tougher than ice.

Also, the colder ice gets the more fragile it becomes. Because there's less internal movement to absorb impacts making it more prone to cracking.


Come on. You're smarter than this.

So you admit to not knowing about the HV feat above a trillion degrees. Understood. And it was plastered here, years ago. I guess you missed it.


The hardness of ice varies on the temperature and pressur
"Ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs" disqualifies you of any scientific debating. That was a very misinformed statement. That statement is only true under a specific range of temperatures and pressures.

Under specific temperatures and pressures ICE can be both harder and tougher than steel. Come on, You're smarter than this.
And those specific circumstances can occur in fiction from an alien with exotic powers who can freeze both high class 100 level beings.
This is comic ice, not standard.

Originally posted by carver9
Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here? But you are not answering his question.
He wants you to put a number on it.
If each character is different then put a number on each (on Superman, on Surfer, etc).

He's trying to establish a hard rule that if both you agree on then neither of can dispute and the debate can progress.

Without hard numbers then you or anyone can flip flop or state "in their opinion, character X can do it because..."

Originally posted by Astner
Based off official values? roughly 5,000 degrees.



That's the lowest estimate, really.

https://i.imgur.com/3At9ibm.jpeg

Solar plasma can go from 6,000 degrees (5,726 degrees C) to 'well over' 10^6 K (9.9 million degrees C).

https://i.postimg.cc/hGg8wv9t/plasma.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
The second scan is more relevant because it's superimposed on both of the stories I cited. But we don't know what this weakness entailed. It certainly not grounds for arbitrary extrapolation. But even if we're being extremely generous and allow you to double the temperature (because he was split in two). It's still nowhere near enough to cause any harm to either Thor or the Silver Surfer.

I dare say solar plasma temps would harm this Thor.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58c35f74d1758e424ee76710/1553093812914-RDASX3VZL8YQQ0PF9ABA/thor1.jpg

And no, I don't care that the scans are GIGANTIC.

^^ strongest being he knows. Stronger than the Hulk?

Originally posted by Diesldude
^^ strongest being he knows. Stronger than the Hulk?

SHE. That's Freyja talking there. I just chalk it up to a mom talking her little boy up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah so what's consistent? That's my original question. Because it just then boils down to who's read more comics, rather than appearances.

For example, you and I both know abhi has probably got a file/folder somewhere filled with nothing but Surfer and Thor low showings. Hell, the Thor Vs street levellers thread is proof of this.

So do we say consistently, Thor is slower than a street? It's certainly more than a 1,2,3 off. Would you say Thor has more showings than Superman? Probably not, which mewns it's CONSISTENT (as per what I'm getting from you thus far) that Thor is only slightly above human speed, if that.

And then you just KNOW that abhi will have a folder of Surfer getting drained dry (mmmm). And another folder of Superman absorbing energy - certainly more than 1,2,3 times.

So are you going to agree with him that Surfer Vs Superman, Superman drains all of Surfer's energy? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Why mention low showings when I said this is all about their averages? If on average they suck, it wouldn't be considered a low.

If Thor is consistently slower than street level and you provide proof of that, then yes, that's a solid argument.

What's the average of Surfer getting drained versus him fighting against such tactics?

How many times has Superman drained someone, especially someone of Surfer caliber. This is simple. If you say Superman beats Surfer by draining him, you need to provide enough proof showing that's within his abilities to do, not just a one off or two off. If we use one off, then people like Spiderman can survive the UN, Colossus can lift islands, Sun Spot can push planetary weight, Wonder Woman has star level strength, Cyborg, Mera, and Batman has nano seconds speeds (lmao), and the list goes on and on.

Originally posted by carver9
Why mention low showings when I said this is all about their averages? If on average they suck, it wouldn't be considered a low.

If Thor is consistently slower than street level and you provide proof of that, then yes, that's a solid argument.

What's the average of Surfer getting drained versus him fighting against such tactics?

How many times has Superman drained someone, especially someone of Surfer caliber. This is simple. If you say Superman beats Surfer by draining him, you need to provide enough proof showing that's within his abilities to do, not just a one off or two off. If we use one off, then people like Spiderman can survive the UN, Colossus can lift islands, Sun Spot can push planetary weight, Wonder Woman has star level strength, Cyborg, Mera, and Batman has nano seconds speeds (lmao), and the list goes on and on.

Because your argument about high showings can also be applied to low showings.

You say 'for something to be valid/a valid tactic, character X has to have done it more than 1,2,3, times'.

Iow, if it happens more than X times (which I keep asking for), then.....it's consistent.

So if Thor keeps getting embarrassed by street tiers - and again, you know the showings are there, there's an entire thread of them - then it's..... consistent, according to your logic.

It works both ways, without a definition of consistency. Is it a percentage? If you can't answer it, then it just becomes bias driven.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no? On this sole point of alleged infinite energy to reach absolute zero... I just don't think Captain Cold's gun operates on infinite energy. Accordingly, I agree with Astner that it would be more logical that a heat source of +273 Celsius temperatures is all that would be required to offset -273 Celsius temperatures.

But I do expect that comics would probably require more than +273 Celsius temperatures. I just don't think infinite heat energy should be expected here.

Lol at thinking something 273 Celsius can neutralize - 273 Celcius instantly.
Astner is disqualified.

That would mean putting a - 20 degree ice cube into 20 degree water (both equal volume) will suddenly make the ice cube melt completely into water INSTANTLY.
Try it.

Originally posted by ODG

But I do expect that comics would probably require more than +273 Celsius temperatures. I just don't think infinite heat energy should be expected here.
Well, I think that's the point here. Infinite energy?probably not. Far more than +273 Celsius? I would say based on how potent is absolute zero in RL, the answer is yes( and I fully believe it also requires a lot more energy than generating heat at like the surface of the Sun)

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's the lowest estimate, really.

https://i.imgur.com/3At9ibm.jpeg

Solar plasma can go from 6,000 degrees (5,726 degrees C) to 'well over' 10^6 K (9.9 million degrees C).

https://i.postimg.cc/hGg8wv9t/plasma.jpg



I dare say solar plasma temps would harm this Thor.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/58c35f74d1758e424ee76710/1553093812914-RDASX3VZL8YQQ0PF9ABA/thor1.jpg

And no, I don't care that the scans are GIGANTIC.
And that is when we still use the feats that post-crisis/COIE onward. Despite the fact pre-crisis is now canon to DC as well

For example, a lot more specific one is Superman's HV reaches the temperature of a star's core(millions of degrees)
https://ibb.co/khSSXBL

And from the information I googled on the internet, the heat of the core should be at least 10 million kelvin( 9 999 726 degrees Celsius) to be considered as a star

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just remembered, this opinion seems a bit contradictive to an opinion you made not long ago(relatively), if I'm not misunderstanding what you mean
The Fail-safe Arc was superimposed on the other stories at the end of Dark Crisis (main series), but as you can see, I maintained skepticism in spite of that. Hence, "let's wait and see."

Originally posted by Astner
The Fail-safe Arc was superimposed on the other stories at the end of Dark Crisis (main series),
Yeah, but the Dark Crisis isn't mentioning white sun either. So use it to seemingly downplay White Sun amped Superman looks a bit contradictive to the post you made

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So....you think your interpretaion is a better explanation...despite the fact the Cold has decades history that established his cold gun is absolute zero(like, in his very first appearances) and the comic puts a specific number that aligns to it(for example, when you googled it, that would be a genereal answer)
Did you not read my argument? First and foremost, what paragraph in story are you referring to? Secondly, "-273.15 C" is scientifically distinct from "-273.150 C," that's how significant figures work.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for whether pre-crisis is admissible or not
Just because the events are canon (i.e. they happened) doesn't mean that Kal-L and Kal-El are the same character. In fact, both Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis would have to be retconned for that to be the case.

The worst part of this is that you know this. But you're hoping that the people reading our posts don't.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yeah, but the Dark Crisis isn't mentioning white sun either.
No, but it's an event that tied all of these stories together.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So use it to seemingly downplay White Sun amped Superman looks a bit contradictive to the post you made
Maintaining healthy skepticism over the implications of a statement rather than engaging in reactionary powerscaling is downplaying now? Really?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wrong, he just heals quickly.

He doesn't swim in the sun for days at a time. He swims in there, every day, until his eyes start to burn, then he has to come out before more damage is done.

It's like me coming to a swimming pool, and diving in every day for weeks until my lungs start to burn (ok, metaphorically not literally). Your logic would be that I can swim underwater for days.

Which is wrong. And no, no extensive digging was needed - I own that comic, and I knew that the sun was at least hotter than 5,000 degrees C.
Okay, let's drop the numbers for now and just look at at what the comics say:
Thor endured solar plasma for extensive periods of time.
Superman's Heat Vision is hot enough to generate solar plasma.So why would Superman's Heat Vision hurt Thor?

Well, that's a.... generous interpretation (not to mention wrong).

The comics say that his eyes start to roast in his sockets in solar plasma temps. He fights to keeps his eyes open. No where does it say he endured it for extended periods of time, any more than me coming to a swimming pool for weeks and diving in every day until my lungs start burning equals me......being able to stay underwater for extended periods of time.

Superman can generate solar temps. And pretty high ones too, as they're likened to (microscopic) supernovae, which extensive digging tells me can reach 1 billion degrees C (which is rather more than '20% higher than 5,000 degrees'), even if on a microscopic level.

Those are the two statements - you adding on the extended periods is just bias, unfortunately.

So yeah, based on the two statements we actually read in the scans I helpfully blew up, he can hurt Thor, easily.

Originally posted by Astner
Did you not read my argument? First and foremost, what paragraph in story are you referring to? Secondly, "-273.15 C" is scientifically distinct from "-273.150 C," that's how significant figures work.

This
https://ibb.co/yF114hv

Originally posted by Astner
"-273.15 C" is scientifically distinct from "-273.150 C," that's how significant figures work.

Luckily, this is a comic book, not an scientific article

Originally posted by Astner

Just because the events are canon (i.e. they happened) doesn't mean that Kal-L and Kal-El are the same character. In fact, both Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis would have to be retconned for that to be the case.

Huh? no, it is from Superman 145, which published in Silver Age. And Superman is working for the Planet(Daily Planet) in that story.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_1_145
https://ibb.co/F6H8085

I.E, that's Kal-El, not Kal-L(who mainly appeared in Golden Age, and works for Daily Star, not Daily Planet)

So Astner trolls and states writer's intent for absolute zero is not actually absolute zero

Then he trolls and states that WW and Bizarro got frozen by some 2.5 Mohs ice (which all ice isn't) and ignores the fact that ice is just a byproduct of them being frozen Directly. And ignores writer's intent that the freeze breath is powerful enough to hold WW and Bizarro.

And ignores evidence of Superman's hv showing to being above a trillion degrees.

Originally posted by Astner
No, but it's an event that tied all of these stories together.

Well, the same can be said for the scan I posted(pre-merging Superman). The Superman appeared in the Justice League issues is tied to the one appeared in Superman Clark and Lois( and it published around the same year of the issue you're referring).
Since only when Rebirth begins, Superman becomes a Superdad as a status quo for starter.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The comics say that his eyes start to roast in his sockets in solar plasma temps. He fights to keeps his eyes open. No where does it say he endured it for extended periods of time, any more than me coming to a swimming pool for weeks and diving in every day until my lungs start burning equals me......being able to stay underwater for extended periods of time.
But we do see Thor with his eyes open inside of the Sun...in the scan you posted. His eyes are being directly exposed to the solar plasma. It hurts him, sure, but he can endure it. So even if Superman used his Heat Vision on Thor's eyes it wouldn't stop Thor in his tracks.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman can generate solar temps. And pretty high ones too, as they're likened to (microscopic) supernovae, which extensive digging tells me can reach 1 billion degrees C (which is rather more than '20% higher than 5,000 degrees'), even if on a microscopic level.
Now you're cherry-picking, and poorly at that. It said solar plasma. It's the reaction caused by the interaction of the fire demon and Superman's Heat Vision (that reached the temperatures of solar plasma) that caused this "microscopic supernova" (which isn't a even real phenomena), yet you insist on associating it with specific properties of actual supernovae.

Why? Because you can't stick up to the fact that Superman's Heat Vision would be next to useless against Thor based off feats. So you have to resort to highly speculative interpretations that don't meet the standard of the forum.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Those are the two statements - you adding on the extended periods is just bias, unfortunately.
What am I adding?

Originally posted by Astner
But we do see Thor with his eyes open inside of the Sun...in the scan you posted. His eyes are being directly exposed to the solar plasma. It hurts him, sure, but he can endure it. So even if Superman used his Heat Vision on Thor's eyes it wouldn't stop Thor in his tracks.


Now you're cherry-picking, and poorly at that. It said solar plasma. It's the reaction caused by the interaction of the fire demon and Superman's Heat Vision (that reached the temperatures of solar plasma) that caused this "microscopic supernova" (which isn't a even real phenomena), yet you insist on associating it with specific properties of actual supernovae.

Why? Because you can't stick up to the fact that Superman's Heat Vision would be next to useless against Thor based off feats. So you have to resort to highly speculative interpretations that don't meet the standard of the forum.


What am I adding?

Oh ok, so it hurts him. So back to your original statement, Thor gets hurt by solar plasma, Superman can generate solar plasma. Glad we agree.

Now you're adding the fire demon? Where in Batman's explanation is any attribution given to the demon? Please point it out. What Batman DOES say, is that in effect, it is a microscopic supernova. It has the effect of one.

So yeah, temperature would be an effect, I reckon.

You are ALSO adding this ' endure for extended' periods of time, although, I see you are now walking back and acknowledging that I am correct, and that solar plasma temperatures hurt Thor. He has them open for a couple of panels before having to shut them and then gets called out by his mother.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
This
https://ibb.co/yF114hv
It's funny how I ask for a "paragraph and story," and all I get is a low-res cropped image. What are you hiding? Do you even know what comic this is from? I cite the comics I reference, why can't you?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Luckily, this is a comic book, not an scientific article
What? How does this affect anything? The phrases "Absolute Zero," and "-459.67 F," are either used colloquially or formally. If they're used colloquially then they don't matter. If they're used formally you have to deal with the context of approximations and significant figures.

It's also weird how you insist on pushing this as a non-quantifiable feat. Because if it isn't quantifiable then you can't derive any values for it. It just goes into the trash pile of "writers failing to grasp physics." Like when Kyle Rayner thought splitting a random atom would cause a nuclear explosion. We're not re-envisioning the DC Universe to account for stupid shit like that.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? no, it is from Superman 145, which published in Silver Age. And Superman is working for the Planet(Daily Planet) in that story.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_1_145
https://ibb.co/F6H8085

I.E, that's Kal-El, not Kal-L(who mainly appeared in Golden Age, and works for Daily Star, not Daily Planet)
That's funny, because Kal-El wasn't introduced until Justice League of America (1960) #73, which was published in 1969, eight years after Superman (1939) #154.

Originally posted by Astner
To be fair, neither Heat Vision and his Ice Breath would faze Silver Surfer or Thor, both of whom have withstood more extreme temperatures. The only one in this fight that would succumb to either (particularly Heat Vision) would be J'onn, and he's on Superman's team.
Lol, lmao even

Originally posted by h1a8
So Astner trolls and states writer's intent for absolute zero is not actually absolute zero
No, I'm explaining why it's not a grounded interpretation of the source material.

Originally posted by h1a8
Then he trolls and states that WW and Bizarro got frozen by some 2.5 Mohs ice (which all ice isn't) and ignores the fact that ice is just a byproduct of them being frozen Directly. And ignores writer's intent that the freeze breath is powerful enough to hold WW and Bizarro.
Under atmospheric conditions ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs, which is notably lower than the hardness of steel, which I corrected you on.

If you want to discuss a particular feat, then post it. I know you won't, because the feats you refer to occur under atmospheric conditions. The fact that it incapacitated Bizarro or Wonder Woman doesn't change the fact that it's ice, it just means that Bizarro and Wonder Women weren't particularly impressive in those stories.

Originally posted by h1a8
And ignores evidence of Superman's hv showing to being above a trillion degrees.
There's no one such showing in this thread.

Originally posted by Astner
It's funny how I ask for a "paragraph and story," and all I get is a low-res cropped image. What are you hiding? Do you even know what comic this is from? I cite the comics I reference, why can't you?

Huh? No, you initial post was saying "what paragraph in story are you referring to"
Not a paragraph and story

The scan I posted in the first page, It comes from Adventures of Superman 565

Originally posted by Astner

What? How does this affect anything? The phrases "Absolute Zero," and "-459.67 F," are either used colloquially or formally. If they're used colloquially then they don't matter. If they're used formally you have to deal with the context of approximations and significant figures.

It's also weird how you insist on pushing this as a non-quantifiable feat. Because if it isn't quantifiable then you can't derive any values for it. It just goes into the trash pile of "writers failing to grasp physics." Like when Kyle Rayner thought splitting a random atom would cause a nuclear explosion. We're not re-envisioning the DC Universe to account for stupid shit like that.

The same could be argued about the scans you used to put maximum limits for Superman's HV...when he was weakened, and we have the scans point out his HV is hotter than the limits you put here( solar plasma, off the charts heat degrees, millions of degrees etc)

Originally posted by Astner

That's funny, because Kal-El wasn't introduced until Justice League of America (1960) #73, which was published in 1969, eight years after Superman (1939) #154.
No, in Superman 113, it already mentioned the name Kal-El
https://ibb.co/QC69D6k

You know, Thor has almost died falling into lava, several times right? Knocked out by an avalanche?

Anyway, Superman has his heat vision practically drew away Blackrock stone in fear of the heat even through his shields.

https://imgur.com/a/F4w4b

And Blackrock stone was chilling in the sun for months.

https://i.ibb.co/9WZGs5w/am-OO-Aw1-ROQv-VRqh-Yise3-Dw-TZas-WNk9-MH-2ww7q6pg-I3-Wrh1e-Z-Z8-Cuzt-Xn3-E2gk8xhz-N-mm2xtf-Oo-Fo-D8.jpg https://i.ibb.co/k1K1RkB/Me-Tfd-SWEj-h-FDck-ET-On-PSJk-Yc2u6-Mg-CXAvssua-Gb-LOk14-Tqv-QMzizxvb-h5oj-QSMAVf-ZUvg5-NG-V4z8-Fkr.jpg

Along with J'onn creates a heat pulse rivalling the birth of a sun.

https://imgur.com/a/F4w4b

Superman would practically incinerate Thor and melt Surfer in a puddle.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh ok, so it hurts him. So back to your original statement, Thor gets hurt by solar plasma, Superman can generate solar plasma. Glad we agree.
It's kind of interesting how you like to play with semantics like this to characterize the argument.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Now you're adding the fire demon? Where in Batman's explanation is any attribution given to the demon? Please point it out. What Batman DOES say, is that in effect, it is a microscopic supernova. It has the effect of one.

]So yeah, temperature would be an effect, I reckon.
I thought this scene was from JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, apparently it's not. Then again, this is why I'm telling you to source your scans. A request you never seem to comply with unless specifically asked.

So I'll have to ask you to source the scene.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You are ALSO adding this ' endure for extended' periods of time, although, I see you are now walking back and acknowledging that I am correct, and that solar plasma temperatures hurt Thor. He has them open for a couple of panels before having to shut them and then gets called out by his mother.
"Getting hurt" and "enduring" are not mutually exclusive terms. Most people with a tattoo will admit to it hurting to get one, but they endured it nontheless.

Abhi, I think you linked to the same scan twice

Thor gets knocked out by an avalanche.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zNmqTGF-OAk/Vnp7_PrynRI/AAAAAAAAYno/Xoq5ymHpIqA/s1600-Ic42/RCO020.jpg

Thor fears of his life falling into magma.

http://i.imgur.com/prLJUiw.jpg

Originally posted by Smurph
Abhi, I think you linked to the same scan twice
Ah yes, here's the Blackrock scan.

https://imgur.com/a/sndgF

And these are random scans I brought up from top of my mind. If I wanted to lowball like Astner, Thor and Surfer wouldn't survive a campfire.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? No, you initial post was saying "what paragraph in story are you referring to"
Not a paragraph and story

The scan I posted in the first page, It comes from Adventures of Superman 565
Fair enough I'll check it out when I get home.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The same could be argued about the scans you used to put maximum limits for Superman's HV...when he was weakened, and we have the scans point out his HV is hotter than the limits you put here( solar plasma, off the charts heat degrees, millions of degrees etc)
Solar plasma is the stuff the Sun is made of, like Darksaint showed, it ranges from under 6,000 K to well over a million K. Which means that we go with the most conservative value (under 6,000), because we don't want to assume more than necessary.

Moreover, even if you don't want to be conservative here. Thor swam in solar plasma, with eyes open. So it's not really a feasible option.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, in Superman 113, it already mentioned the name Kal-El
https://ibb.co/QC69D6k
Fair enough. Carver will have to clarify what he means with average versions then.

Originally posted by Smurph
Abhi, I think you linked to the same scan twice
He also failed to reference the stories it's from.

Edit. Never-mind, the link in his new post clarifies the Blackrock feat is from from Superman Vol. 2 #218. But the other feat remains unsourced.

I'll check it out when I get home.

Originally posted by Astner
It's kind of interesting how you like to play with semantics like this to characterize the argument.


I thought this scene was from JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice, apparently it's not. Then again, this is why I'm telling you to source your scans. A request you never seem to comply with unless specifically asked.

So I'll have to ask you to source the scene.


"Getting hurt" and "enduring" are not mutually exclusive terms. Most people with a tattoo will admit to it hurting to get one, but they endured it nontheless.

But I specifically replied to your post about 'hurting', with a refutation that he would indeed be hurt. Which you now agree with, having been corrected by me. It's literally the crux of the entire argument we seem to be having, mainly driven by your ego and refusal to admit you're wrong.

Best you can say is that you were only referring to the core feat from Superman, as it now becomes clear you don't know the feat I posted.

As for the referencing? Sure I can post it. Or not. I'll give you a clue, though: two words, S and M.

Originally posted by Astner
Fair enough I'll check it out when I get home.


Solar plasma is the stuff the Sun is made of, like Darksaint showed, it ranges from under 6,000 K to well over a million K. Which means that we go with the most conservative value (under 6,000), because we don't want to assume more than necessary.

Moreover, even if you don't want to be conservative here. Thor swam in solar plasma, with eyes open. So it's not really a feasible option.


Fair enough. Carver will have to clarify what he means with average versions then.


He also failed to reference the stories it's from.

Edit. Never-mind, the link in his new post clarifies the Blackrock feat is from from Superman Vol. 2 #218. But the other feat remains unsourced.

I'll check it out when I get home.

You also forget that in its effect, it was a (microscopic) supernova. So you can't just assume the lowest boundary.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But I specifically replied to your post about 'hurting', with a refutation that he would indeed be hurt. Which you now agree with, having been corrected by me. It's literally the crux of the entire argument we seem to be having, mainly driven by your ego and refusal to admit you're wrong.
Fair enough, hurt was a bad choice of words on my part. My bad. So let's focus on what I actually meant rather than semantics. Why do you think solar plasma-temperatures would be an effective strategy against someone who's explicitly endured solar plasma temperatures for what was it...weeks?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Best you can say is that you were only referring to the core feat from Superman, as it now becomes clear you don't know the feat I posted.

As for the referencing? Sure I can post it. Or not. I'll give you a clue, though: two words, S and M.
That's not how debating works. If you withhold the source for your evidence you don't get to use it, because it can't be verified. It could be non-canonical, it could be an edit of the page, and it could be refuted by the context, etc.

So either you share the source for your evidence, or you concede the point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You also forget that in its effect, it was a (microscopic) supernova. So you can't just assume the lowest boundary.
I'm still waiting for the citation.

Imagine how much smoother our debates would go if you and Abhi sourced the scans you relied on. But for some reason you insist on dragging out the debates, hoping to turn them into a battles of attrition.

Originally posted by Astner
Fair enough I'll check it out when I get home.


Solar plasma is the stuff the Sun is made of, like Darksaint showed, it ranges from under 6,000 K to well over a million K. Which means that we go with the most conservative value (under 6,000), because we don't want to assume more than necessary.

Moreover, even if you don't want to be conservative here. Thor swam in solar plasma, with eyes open. So it's not really a feasible option.


Fair enough. Carver will have to clarify what he means with average versions then.


He also failed to reference the stories it's from.

Edit. Never-mind, the link in his new post clarifies the Blackrock feat is from from Superman Vol. 2 #218. But the other feat remains unsourced.

I'll check it out when I get home.
Its from JLA: Scary Monsters. Here's another feat for you.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Mind you, even Valor who Superman beat black and blue oneshotted Unimaginable who literally causes suns to go supernova and drains them to gain his power.

https://i.postimg.cc/gxp71dqk/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/sMJLr8wP/image.jpg

Unimaginable caused a sun to go supernova and drained its energy just two issues ago.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pp64VnfJ/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/n9C16SMk/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/w3vFyMFm/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/4nSPzGFF/image.jpg

Confirmed in its profile entry.

https://i.postimg.cc/SYpLjQKn/image.jpg
Scans are from Valor v1 7-8-10.


And before you start, Superman defeated Valor while suffering from asphyxiation.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02f.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its from JLA: Scary Monsters. Here's another feat for you.
It's a mini-series, the issue number is relevant here too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Scans are from Valor v1 7-8-10.

And before you start, Superman defeated Valor while suffering from asphyxiation.
Originally posted by Astner
Why would this even matter? They're two different characters. This is like saying that Superman should have telepathic abilities because he beat up a guy who beat up Martian Manhunter.
It's tangential to your main point, but as a side-note: It's interesting to see how you interpret possessed characters. Sometimes they're weaker and sometimes they're at their full strength. The only thing consistent with your interpretations seem to be that they conveniently align with whatever position you're arguing for.

Originally posted by Astner
It's a mini-series, the issue number is relevant here too.

Should I buy you the book too?

Valor is a daxamite with identical powers to Superman, if Superman defeats him while he's at a disadvantage, it means Superman is more powerful than him. It's not rocket science.

Also Eclipso didn't weaken anyone, it was quite opposite actually.

Originally posted by Astner

Solar plasma is the stuff the Sun is made of, like Darksaint showed, it ranges from under 6,000 K to well over a million K. Which means that we go with the most conservative value (under 6,000), because we don't want to assume more than necessary.

The point I don't agree is HV/FB wouldn't faze Silver Surfer or Thor. From my understanding, you're saying HV/FB wouldn't bother their.

But I think it's debatable, since even going by the conservative value, Thor can well be argued he will be hurt by it(which you seem agreed with)

And there are other tactics such as burning the air in opponent's lungs, which should also pose problems for them(at least, for Thor as far as I know)
https://ibb.co/vB8R8kv

etcetc

In short, I'm not saying HV/FB is a certain way of winning this fight. But it definitely should cause some problems to their opponents here

Originally posted by Astner
Fair enough, hurt was a bad choice of words on my part. My bad. So let's focus on what I actually meant rather than semantics. Why do you think solar plasma-temperatures would be an effective strategy against someone who's explicitly endured solar plasma temperatures for what was it...weeks?


That's not how debating works. If you withhold the source for your evidence you don't get to use it, because it can't be verified. It could be non-canonical, it could be an edit of the page, and it could be refuted by the context, etc.

So either you share the source for your evidence, or you concede the point.


I'm still waiting for the citation.

Imagine how much smoother our debates would go if you and Abhi sourced the scans you relied on. But for some reason you insist on dragging out the debates, hoping to turn them into a battles of attrition.

He endured it for weeks...but not for extended periods of time. That's another mistake you made, where you're wrong. I can go to a swimming pool and dive in every day for weeks, staying underwater until my lungs are burning...doesn't mean I'm enduring being underwater for weeks.

I can hold my hand over a candle, until my hand starts to burn, every day for weeks.... doesn't mean I'm enduring it for weeks or that I can even hold my hand over a flame for minutes.

Nah, I can withold scans and reference them as I see fit. As you've amply shown, simply referencing means nothing if you don't actually know what you're talking about. But I DID reference them, if not explicitly - I gave you two words lol. Now, is it the nice clear reference and citation YOU want? Probably (lol) not. But is it A reference? Yes. A shitty one, to be sure, but it's one.

But yes, he created solar plasma with the effects of a (microscopic) supernova, with his HV, whilst Thor gets hurt by 'standard' (if there's such a term) solar plasma.

As for the reason for drawing it out? Maybe I'm bored, maybe I just don't like your misplaced arrogance, lol. I mean, look at this very thread:

Originally posted by Astner

Now you're cherry-picking, and poorly at that. It said solar plasma. It's the reaction caused by the interaction of the fire demon and Superman's Heat Vision (that reached the temperatures of solar plasma) that caused this "microscopic supernova" (which isn't a even real phenomena), yet you insist on associating it with specific properties of actual supernovae.

Look at you, getting all excited, and making assertions when you have zero idea what my scans are about. A carver might read your post and think hmmmm this Astner sure knows his comics and is great at calling this point out!!!

But you had zero idea, yet dived in (lol) with both feet first (hell, head first!) into asserting some fire demon was involved.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Should I buy you the book too?

Astner gets aroused by numbers. Seriously.

He wants you to say it, so he can get off. He is perfectly capable of finding the source himself after 17 years on this message board.

--
But there's also a really good chance he is exactly like Raymond Babbitt from Rain Man movie...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Should I buy you the book too?
I'm not sure why you're getting frustrated over the fact that I ask you to source your evidence. If you believe your evidence is reliable then you'd want to provide all the relevant details for the sake of transparency.

This is something I do without being asked for this very reason. It saves the people I debate the trouble of asking for it, and having to await my reply.

The only reason someone would not do this is either:
They don't know what comic they're referring to.
They're trying to obstruct further analysis of the story.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Valor is a daxamite with identical powers to Superman, if Superman defeats him while he's at a disadvantage, it means Superman is more powerful than him. It's not rocket science.
Daxamites are not Kryptonians, and they don't have identical powers and weaknesses.

In fact, I'm not sure why you'd need to rely on Valor's feats unless Superman distinctly lacked any comparable feat. Which given his extensive history isn't all that good.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Eclipso didn't weaken anyone, it was quite opposite actually.
Was it confirmed in the story, or is this another interpretation on your part?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The point I don't agree is HV/FB wouldn't faze Silver Surfer or Thor. From my understanding, you're saying HV/FB wouldn't bother their.
It would bother Thor, in the same sense a guy with a water gun would bother you if the squirted water at you. But it wouldn't be an effective strategy in subduing Thor. Silver Surfer on the other hand would be completely unfazed. This is a character who's "surfed" supernovae since his first appearance, and who has a the ability to absorb energy.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And there are other tactics such as burning the air in opponent's lungs, which should also pose problems for them(at least, for Thor as far as I know)
https://ibb.co/vB8R8kv
If Thor needs to breathe, he breathed solar plasma for weeks. Some heated air isn't going to accomplish much.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
In short, I'm not saying HV/FB is a certain way of winning this fight. But it definitely should cause some problems to their opponents here
I'd disagree, but given the leeway of interpretation I can accept this.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He endured it for weeks...but not for extended periods of time. That's another mistake you made, where you're wrong. I can go to a swimming pool and dive in every day for weeks, staying underwater until my lungs are burning...doesn't mean I'm enduring being underwater for weeks.
Fair enough, so what do you think is a fair estimate here for how long he endured it at a time? Because the time he'd need to endure it would be the time it would take him to cross the distance between him and Superman and take a swing. And at that point (regardless of who you'd think would win) Heat Vision wouldn't matter.

The rest of your argument is based off evidence which you've admittedly refused to source. So by the burden of the rejoinder you've conceded that point.

Originally posted by Astner

If Thor needs to breathe, he breathed solar plasma for weeks. Some heated air isn't going to accomplish much.


I'm not sure. At least, from these scans(courtesy to sweet Stilt ), I feel this topic can be debated

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shut up, carver:

1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5477309-thor%20in%20space.jpg
2. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5477311-thor%20in%20space%20%282%29.jpg




1. https://tinyurl.com/hknxntd7




1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5791555-5686209-destroyer%2Btrying%2Bto%2Bdrown%2Bthor.jpg




1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5883438-guys%20thor%20is%20underwater-whaaaaaat.jpg
2. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5883439-thor%20underwater.jpg





1. https://tinyurl.com/6j9z6w9f
2. https://tinyurl.com/yvf7sx2s
3. https://tinyurl.com/3heyyj9v




1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5938340-thor%20passes%20out%20underwater.jpg
2. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5938345-thor%20passes%20out%20underwater%20%282%29.jpg
3. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5938347-thor%20passes%20out%20underwater%20%283%29.jpg





1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5938709-5484130-thor%2Bunderwater.jpg
2. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5938712-5484131-thor%2Bunderwater%2B%282%29.jpg








1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/5945530-5557177-thor%27s%2Bbreathing%2Babilities.jpg





1. https://tinyurl.com/wjsfeca





1. https://tinyurl.com/exdpvvuy






1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11113/111137597/6057530-thor%20can%27t%20survive%20space.jpg








1. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111341994/6238946-thor%20266-annual06-07.jpg
2. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111341994/6238947-thor%20266-annual06-13.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
I'm not sure why you're getting frustrated over the fact that I ask you to source your evidence. If you believe your evidence is reliable then you'd want to provide all the relevant details for the sake of transparency.

Because you want to have everything spoon-fed to you. I gave you the details of the feats with the comic details and you're still whining like a *****.

Knock yourself out. I gave you the books name, do your own research.

Lolwut? They are literally discount Kryptonians (diluted DNA) who were given lead weakness by Eradicator.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Superman-1939/Annual-14?id=68952

In fact, they're weaker than Power Girl.

https://i.postimg.cc/v17jmvGM/image.jpg

JSA Our Worlds At war 1




I already gave you better feats lol. I accept your concession for Valor's feat.




It is directly confirmed in the story.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I'm not sure. At least, from these scans(courtesy to sweet Stilt ), I feel this topic can be debated
Stop this BS. Superman doesn't needs this type of tactic to affect Thor lol

Originally posted by Astner
Fair enough, so what do you think is a fair estimate here for how long he endured it at a time? Because the time he'd need to endure it would be the time it would take him to cross the distance between him and Superman and take a swing. And at that point (regardless of who you'd think would win) Heat Vision wouldn't matter.

The rest of your argument is based off evidence which you've admittedly refused to source. So by the burden of the rejoinder you've conceded that point.

Then Superman uses superspeed, flies somewhere else (but still within HV range) and....repeats.

Then HV would matter. Or he does it internally, inside Thor's brain.

But as for a fair time period?I honestly cannot say.It is in the space of four panels, which means nothing, so absent anything else, I would continue to use the analogy of a human with a candle.

I did not refuse to source it, I gave you a source - two words, S and M.

Refusing to EXPLICITLY reference something isn't conceding - I do not have to do your homework for you.

Also, nowhere does it state he's breathing solar plasma for weeks, any more than me diving into a pool every day for weeks = me breathing water for weeks.

Wonder Woman went from getting her wrist broken by bullets to no selling them under control of Eclipso.

https://i.postimg.cc/9wGK453x/RCO010.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/G9YZgYBk/RCO011.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/HVgFqx5F/RCO049.jpg

Wonder Woman annual 3.

Lois Lane was swinging a tree around like a baseball bat.

https://i.postimg.cc/K3kLQxcN/image.jpg

Superman annual 4. There's a lot of such instances.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Wonder Woman went from getting her wrist broken by bullets to no selling them under control of Eclipso.

https://i.postimg.cc/9wGK453x/RCO010.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/G9YZgYBk/RCO011.jpg



Even with bracelets? Seriously?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Even with bracelets? Seriously?
Post Crisis Wonder Woman until Rucka got her was an embarrassment.

Averages =

5 times or more for Surfer

10 for Supes and Thor who has far more showings than Surfer. FAR more.

Originally posted by carver9
Averages =

5 times or more for Surfer

10 for Supes and Thor who has far more showings than Surfer. FAR more.

You think they have 2x as many appearances?

And does the reverse hold true as well then, I e. Surfer only needs 5 'low' showings and it becomes 'consistent' for him? That's what I'm getting at.

Carver thinks of us as of his parents.

Anyway, Captain Atom and Major Force are coated with dilustel which automatically reroutes all energy through quantum field and thus simply can't be burned.

https://i.postimg.cc/ppmX8Fb5/image.jpg

Captain Atom 1

Cap doesn't even feels the heat of the sun.

https://imgur.io/vkCyxkC?r

Captain Atom : Armageddon 11

Major Force's skin is twice as tough as Cap's skin due to 200% metal used in the experiment.

https://i.postimg.cc/1nZ0LSPs/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/ZBFPmQK3/image.jpg

Captain Atom 12

Superman ****ing melts Major Force.

https://i.postimg.cc/gLV9qmD5/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/hfnR4Q4q/image.jpg

Superman v2 185

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You think they have 2x as many appearances?

And does the reverse hold true as well then, I e. Surfer only needs 5 'low' showings and it becomes 'consistent' for him? That's what I'm getting at.

No lows here. We don't use lows in regular debates and we won't use them here.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Carver thinks of us as of his parents.

I think of you as my bugga boo.

Originally posted by carver9
No lows here. We don't use lows in regular debates and we won't use them here.

But what makes you say they are lows?

If I have 10 showings of Superman being taken out by tractor level attacks, and that means that's consistent for Superman, then it's not a low - it's consistent.

And for Surfer, I'll only need 5.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But what makes you say they are lows?

If I have 10 showings of Superman being taken out by tractor level attacks, and that means that's consistent for Superman, then it's not a low - it's consistent.

And for Surfer, I'll only need 5.

10 highs, not 10 lows. Averages and highs. Most of you debate primarily off of highs and ignore the in between. I'm guessing this is why it's difficult understanding the point of the thread since a group of you debating style is digging through a bunch of comics looking for that characters best. Here, it's the exact opposite. Highs aren't unusable here, you just have to find proof that it's a norm. No lows. We've never used them and won't here.

Originally posted by carver9
10 highs, not 10 lows. Averages and highs. Most of you debate primarily off of highs and ignore the in between. I'm guessing this is why it's difficult understanding the point of the thread since a group of you debating style is digging through a bunch of comics looking for that characters best. Here, it's the exact opposite. Highs aren't unusable here, you just have to find proof that it's a norm. No lows. We've never used them and won't here.
But this goes back to my initial question - what is 'consistent'?

You're saying it needs about 5 showings for Surfer (because he has so few appearances) and 10 for Superman/Thor. Once those 5 or 10 showings are posted, it's their average, their norm - you can't say it's a low.

So if Abhi comes in with 5 showings of Surfer doing something, it's consistent, then? You just know he's itching to post them, lol. Probably has entire folders dedicated to it......

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But this goes back to my initial question - what is 'consistent'?

You're saying it needs about 5 showings for Surfer (because he has so few appearances) and 10 for Superman/Thor. Once those 5 or 10 showings are posted, it's their average, their norm - you can't say it's a low.

So if Abhi comes in with 5 showings of Surfer doing something, it's consistent, then? You just know he's itching to post them, lol. Probably has entire folders dedicated to it......

If it's under their average, then it's considered a low. You posting Hulk getting chocked out by a snake 5 times would be considered a low. You posting Hulk busting a planet 5 times with his pinkie would be considered a high. You posting Hulk punching a mountain to dust in 5 hits would be considered an average because we know what level these character operate at.

On average, Wolverine tussle with Captain America and Spiderman level characters. If I post 5 showings of him enduring punches to the face from Hulk/Superman level beings and he's okay afterwards, I can not discredit that showing. If someone counter that by posting Wolverine getting knocked out by a deer, then that's obviously a low showing. You're thinking waaaayyyy to hard on this. You know what a low showing is and you know what averages and high showings are. If you don't, then this thread just isn't for you.

Originally posted by carver9
If it's under their average, then it's considered a low. You posting Hulk getting chocked out by a snake 5 times would be considered a low. You posting Hulk busting a planet 5 times with his pinkie would be considered a high. You posting Hulk punching a mountain to dust in 5 hits would be considered an average because we know what level these character operate at.

On average, Wolverine tussle with Captain America and Spiderman level characters. If I post 5 showings of him enduring punches to the face from Hulk/Superman level beings and he's okay afterwards, I can not discredit that showing. If someone counter that by posting Wolverine getting knocked out by a deer, then that's obviously a low showing. You're thinking waaaayyyy to hard on this. You know what a low showing is and you know what averages and high showings are. If you don't, then this thread just isn't for you.

This post makes no sense. You literally typed:

Originally posted by carver9
Averages =

5 times or more for Surfer

10 for Supes and Thor who has far more showings than Surfer. FAR more.

Posting Surfer getting choked out by a snake or snake-level opponents, on 5 occasions (for example) = Surfer's average, according to your post.

So how can posting it a 6th time be a 'low'? Surely it is his average?

Using your Logan example, if I posted 5 separate times he was KOd by a deer, then...that's his average, no?

It sounds like your entire definition of what is 'average' is down to 'whatever I feel like at the time for the character'. Which could be 100% accurate, but that depends on you the reader having read every single comic of that character. And more often than not, one's bias/views will be injected into that character - you say you have read all of Hulk's appearances and think he's beyond herald level, abhi will counter that he has read all of them and Hulk is only mid-herald.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This post makes no sense.

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth "I tried to rip tinfoil, it wouldn't rip for me" Plagueis the Wise?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This post makes no sense. You literally typed:



Posting Surfer getting choked out by a snake or snake-level opponents, on 5 occasions (for example) = Surfer's average, according to your post.

So how can posting it a 6th time be a 'low'? Surely it is his average?

Using your Logan example, if I posted 5 separate times he was KOd by a deer, then...that's his average, no?

It sounds like your entire definition of what is 'average' is down to 'whatever I feel like at the time for the character'. Which could be 100% accurate, but that depends on you the reader having read every single comic of that character. And more often than not, one's bias/views will be injected into that character - you say you have read all of Hulk's appearances and think he's beyond herald level, abhi will counter that he has read all of them and Hulk is only mid-herald.

Surfer getting choked out by a snake is a low. A.V.E.R.A.G.E OR H.I.G.H. SHOWINGS ONLY. Erase lows from your skull.

Superman getting ran over by a tractor is a low showing, Hulk snake, Wolverine dear, Thanos Mexican, Thor falling from a building and dying, low. They are not welcomed in any thread, so don't use them here. Averages, Hulk punching a continental size meteor across space, Hulk bending secondary adamantium, Hulk throwing Fing Fang to the moon. High showings, Hulk shaking Earth in fist fights, Hulk cracking Thor skull in a single punch, Hulk tanking a scream that destroyed nearby stars, Hulk destroying a Universe in his fight against Night Crawler. The fts that are acceptable here, Averages, the fts that is also acceptable here, highs AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT HE DONE THESE HIGHS AT LEAST 5 TO 10 TIMES. If you can not provide proof that the highs has been done at least 5 to 10 times, then you will stick only to average showings. Example, I mention Surfer wins by blasting Superman to sleep with his powerful blasts. These are his average showings. Dark say, naah, that's not going to happen because Superman will blitz Surfer throughout the entire fight at nano second speeds. I ask for combat showings of Superman combating at light speeds but you can only show me 1 scan of him doing this (since combating at light speed is obviously a high showing). If you can't give me at least 10 instances of him combating at 186000 mps, then it's unusable. High showings are acceptable as long as you can provide evidence of him doing it on panel more than 5 or more. Averages, all fts are acceptable, lows are not acceptable at all.

Originally posted by carver9
Surfer getting choked out by a snake is a low. A.V.E.R.A.G.E OR H.I.G.H. SHOWINGS ONLY. Erase lows from your skull.

Superman getting ran over by a tractor is a low showing, Hulk snake, Wolverine dear, Thanos Mexican, Thor falling from a building and dying, low. They are not welcomed in any thread, so don't use them here. Averages, Hulk punching a continental size meteor across space, Hulk bending secondary adamantium, Hulk throwing Fing Fang to the moon. High showings, Hulk shaking Earth in fist fights, Hulk cracking Thor skull in a single punch, Hulk tanking a scream that destroyed nearby stars, Hulk destroying a Universe in his fight against Night Crawler. The fts that are acceptable here, Averages, the fts that is also acceptable here, highs AS LONG AS YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT HE DONE THESE HIGHS AT LEAST 5 TO 10 TIMES. If you can not provide proof that the highs has been done at least 5 to 10 times, then you will stick only to average showings. Example, I mention Surfer wins by blasting Superman to sleep with his powerful blasts. These are his average showings. Dark say, naah, that's not going to happen because Superman will blitz Surfer throughout the entire fight at nano second speeds. I ask for combat showings of Superman combating at light speeds but you can only show me 1 scan of him doing this (since combating at light speed is obviously a high showing). If you can't give me at least 10 instances of him combating at 186000 mps, then it's unusable. High showings are acceptable as long as you can provide evidence of him doing it on panel more than 5 or more. Averages, all fts are acceptable, lows are not acceptable at all.

If these 'low' showings happen more than 5 times for Surfer, then it's his average.

It isn't a low. It cannot be. This is as per your definition of what an average is - happens 5 times, not a low, it's an average.

DarkSaint may be your father, Carv, but he ain't your daddy

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If these 'low' showings happen more than 5 times for Surfer, then it's his average.

It isn't a low. It cannot be. This is as per your definition of what an average is - happens 5 times, not a low, it's an average.


If you're calling them low showings and referencing them as such, they don't belong here.

Yes it can be. If you know a snake choking out Surfer is a low, don't use it. Lol... you're even referencing them as low showings, but you're still arguing them as averages. 🤣🤣🤣

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
DarkSaint may be your father, Carv, but he ain't your daddy

Can I be your daddy 😏

Originally posted by carver9
If you're calling them low showings and referencing them as such, they don't belong here.

Yes it can be. If you know a snake choking out Surfer is a low, don't use it. Lol... you're even referencing them as low showings, but you're still arguing them as averages. 🤣🤣🤣

That's why I put them in quote marks....once a level is shown to happen 5 times for Surfer, that's his average now. It's not a high, it's not a low, it's average.

And for the same thing to happen to Superman/Thor, we'd need 10 showings of that level to be the new average.

You know this is going to be music to abhi once he wakes up, lol. He's going to spam Surfer falling from orbit onto random forcefields and getting KOd, several times, and it's going to be the new average (not low, not high). He's going to spam rocks falling on Thor and stuff like that. Hell, we already have a thread with multiple occurrences with the Slowdinson - not just 10 showings, an entire thread.

Not attacking you as such - am simply pointing out that this is what your post and thread is leading us to.

Originally posted by Astner
No, I'm explaining why it's not a grounded interpretation of the source material.


Under atmospheric conditions ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs, which is notably lower than the hardness of steel, which I corrected you on.

If you want to discuss a particular feat, then post it. I know you won't, because the feats you refer to occur under atmospheric conditions. The fact that it incapacitated Bizarro or Wonder Woman doesn't change the fact that it's ice, it just means that Bizarro and Wonder Women weren't particularly impressive in those stories.


There's no one such showing in this thread.

Atmospheric conditions? How when the ice was far colder than the atmosphere? You make no sense.

And Ice is solid water. You know, H2O.
Superman doesn't blow just ice (if any) out of his mouth. He blows out extremely cold air. That means mostly nitrogen. The so called ice you believe that surrounded WW and Bizarro is mostly solid nitrogen. And nitrogen can be a solid under normal atmosphere pressure for temps 0K - 63K.
And who's to say that it was ONLY the surrounding solid that held them?
It could be their bodies actually being frozen from making contact with the air in addition to the surrounding solid.

Lastly, if a writer wants normal ice (which isn't in this case) to be both cold and strong enough to hold high class 100 level beings then he has the artistic license to make ice that cold to be that strong. If you try to use science to refute his intent then all feats should be inadmissible (by the same standards) because they shit on real science on a daily.
And if want to argue that all (or nearly all) feats are inadmissible then you are in fact trolling and derailing the threads here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's why I put them in quote marks....once a level is shown to happen 5 times for Surfer, that's his average now. It's not a high, it's not a low, it's average.

And for the same thing to happen to Superman/Thor, we'd need 10 showings of that level to be the new average.

You know this is going to be music to abhi once he wakes up, lol. He's going to spam Surfer falling from orbit onto random forcefields and getting KOd, several times, and it's going to be the new average (not low, not high). He's going to spam rocks falling on Thor and stuff like that. Hell, we already have a thread with multiple occurrences with the Slowdinson - not just 10 showings, an entire thread.

Not attacking you as such - am simply pointing out that this is what your post and thread is leading us to.
Better yet, I get both Thor/Surfer in one showing lol.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Both Thor and Surfer were knocked out by some mud slugs.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16263306/SSANN98_14a.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16263307/SSANN98_14b.jpg.html

Plastic man owns both of them!!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's why I put them in quote marks....once a level is shown to happen 5 times for Surfer, that's his average now. It's not a high, it's not a low, it's average.

And for the same thing to happen to Superman/Thor, we'd need 10 showings of that level to be the new average.

You know this is going to be music to abhi once he wakes up, lol. He's going to spam Surfer falling from orbit onto random forcefields and getting KOd, several times, and it's going to be the new average (not low, not high). He's going to spam rocks falling on Thor and stuff like that. Hell, we already have a thread with multiple occurrences with the Slowdinson - not just 10 showings, an entire thread.

Not attacking you as such - am simply pointing out that this is what your post and thread is leading us to.

Nope, it's not. I'm not insulting you either. Most people on here know what a low showing is.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Better yet, I get both Thor/Surfer in one showing lol.

Abhi, remember:

Originally posted by carver9
Averages =

5 times or more for Surfer

10 for Supes and Thor who has far more showings than Surfer. FAR more.

Surfer is cosmic Martian Manhunter and Thor is Asgardian Martian Manhunter. 😂

tldr;

Are we still arguing that countering Captain Cold's gun requires infinite energy or are we well past that?

Originally posted by carver9
Nope, it's not. I'm not insulting you either. Most people on here know what a low showing is.

Well you certainly do; you post them enough.

Originally posted by ODG
tldr;

Are we still arguing that countering Captain Cold's gun requires infinite energy or are we well past that?
In comics you can get higher energy output from less energy input (1st law of thermodynamics violated).
So you can get absolute zero from finite energy source.

Other comics write that off by claiming the energy source is from another dimension.

Originally posted by ODG
tldr;

Are we still arguing that countering Captain Cold's gun requires infinite energy or are we well past that?

Should've been well past that; I counter absolute zero on a daily basis.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Well you certainly do; you post them enough.

No, Pr, we have a new ruling so get with the programme.

If a showing can be repeated ~10 times for someone like Superman, it's not an outlier showing anymore; it's his average now.

This goes for both high and low showings. And for someone like Surfer, abhi only needs 5 showings before it is his average.

Isn't the whole deal about Cold that his gun somehow, as nonsensical as it sounds, generates temperates below absolute zero?

https://i.ibb.co/r4PNQ3n/E2sXfsX.jpg

Yeah but he was going easy on Superman there. Only Storm can do it on panel.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Should've been well past that; I counter absolute zero on a daily basis.



No, Pr, we have a new ruling so get with the programme.

If a showing can be repeated ~10 times for someone like Superman, it's not an outlier showing anymore; it's his average now.

This goes for both high and low showings. And for someone like Surfer, abhi only needs 5 showings before it is his average.

Just highs. Don't know why you keep saying lows. Just highs, buddy. I've said this multiple times and you still want to talk about lows. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Originally posted by carver9
Just highs. Don't know why you keep saying lows. Just highs, buddy. I've said this multiple times and you still want to talk about lows. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Why does your logic only work for one but not the other?

Because low showings are not acceptable on the forum, and it's not acceptable here.

It's more like "how do you define a low showing" rather than "low showings are not acceptable" here

How do you separate them from "average". Because, per your defition, a similar showing happens 10/5 times will become average

So if Surfer gets put down by rocks. It happens 5 times, then, per your defition, it is his average, now low

Originally posted by carver9
Because low showings are not acceptable on the forum, and it's not acceptable here.

If only you followed your own rules.

Originally posted by -Pr-
If only you followed your own rules.

Lol... what I think as low showings is completely different than what you think. Superman and Damage stalemating is a low showing in your eyes while I see nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... what I think as low showings is completely different than what you think. Superman and Damage stalemating is a low showing in your eyes while I see nothing wrong with it.

This is exactly my point. It's not a low showing if it happens regularly, correct?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This is exactly my point. It's not a low showing if it happens regularly, correct?

A low showing is a low showing. Fighting beings like Damage and stalemating against him isn't a low showing.

Hulk is Hulk is Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
A low showing is a low showing. Fighting beings like Damage and stalemating against him isn't a low showing.

Why not?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why not?

Because Damage was consistently shown as a Superman tier character. Why is it a low showing?

Originally posted by carver9
Because Damage was consistently shown as a Superman tier character. Why is it a low showing?

So you think his highs are equal to Superman's highs? Or his averages are equal to Superman's averages?

I'm not answering a question with a question, it's more what makes him Superman tier- because it's leading to the conclusion I'm trying to help you understand with your logic.

If his averages are equal to Superman's averages, but his highs are not equal, and he has lows that are worse.....how are you defining an Average showing for Damage? He had like 5 showings lol.

You talk about consistency. How many showings does Damage need to establish an average, if Surfer only needs 5?

Dont you get it? Only he determines whats high, average, and low.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you think his highs are equal to Superman's highs? Or his averages are equal to Superman's averages?

I'm not answering a question with a question, it's more what makes him Superman tier- because it's leading to the conclusion I'm trying to help you understand with your logic.

If his averages are equal to Superman's averages, but his highs are not equal, and he has lows that are worse.....how are you defining an Average showing for Damage? He had like 5 showings lol.

You talk about consistency. How many showings does Damage need to establish an average, if Surfer only needs 5?

His averages is stomping the JLA, merking Wonder Woman, even having Wonder Woman saying Damage is stronger than Superman. His showings are pretty high. I'll ask again, why is Damage a low?

Originally posted by carver9
merking Wonder Woman
So he is some transgender amazon that determines to make Wonder Woman replace Aquaman?

https://www.yourdictionary.com/merking

>:O

Carver:

Originally posted by carver9
Most people on here know what a low showing is.

Carver, 3 posts later:

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... what I think as low showings is completely different than what you think. Superman and Damage stalemating is a low showing in your eyes while I see nothing wrong with it.

It's not a low showing. 😡

Set Superman and Damage aside for a second and just think about the difference between

"Most people on here know what a low showing is"

vs

"what I think as low showings is completely different than what you think"

Originally posted by Smurph
Set Superman and Damage aside for a second and just think about the difference between

"Most people on here know what a low showing is"

vs

"what I think as low showings is completely different than what you think"

👍🏾... I see what you're saying. There's different levels to this, though, but I get your point.

According to carver, Poison ivy>Justice League.

Originally posted by carver9
Even you don't believe Damage comes close to Hulk but let's play that game if you want. The same Damage that couldn't break free from Poison Ivy plants and got knocked TF out? Is that the Damage above this version of Hulk that withstood 100s of thousands stars exploding? You have to be a troll...

https://ibb.co/SwvRDgf
https://ibb.co/HK5M4hd
https://ibb.co/d2Rck1m

Why are you bringing Gladiator into this? Hulk and Gladiator has fought twice. Use those as a reference of fts, please. Then you're the guy who's trying to debate against statements while at the same time posting green Lantern fts from statements. 🤦🏿
Originally posted by carver9
Let me pull a Darksaint. The same Damage that got beat by Poison Ivy?
Originally posted by carver9

You can keep nitpicking all you want but at this point, Superman needs a team to take on Hulk... especially if he is getting stalemated by someone like Damage who got taken out by Poison Ivy and a King Kong wannabe.

Well, Ivy certainly is superior to Superman.

what was it batman hush? christ can you believe that was almost 20 years ago? time flies

Originally posted by carver9
His averages is stomping the JLA, merking Wonder Woman, even having Wonder Woman saying Damage is stronger than Superman. His showings are pretty high. I'll ask again, why is Damage a low?

So two feats and a statement is enough to be consistent for him?

Originally posted by abhilegend
According to carver, Poison ivy>Justice League.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

If two feats are all that's needed to establish an average, Damage gets KOd by Ivy and Congorilla. I don't even need to bring his showing against Batman up.

Which means his average is either getting stomped by a King Kong wannabe, or stomping Wonder Woman. And round and round we go......

Originally posted by MrMind
what was it batman hush? christ can you believe that was almost 20 years ago? time flies

Yes, Hush.

And yes, we are old as ****.

...

Let's face it. Only one thing left for us to do:

https://i.ibb.co/WVhsSCM/sui.png

Originally posted by carver9
I see what you're saying. There's different levels to this, though, but I get your point. Yeah, there are levels. There are low showings that everybody would agree on because it's so blatant and then there are showings that are debatably somewhere between low and average.

So, if you make a thread where average showings are "in" and low showings are "out", you still need a mechanism to distinguish a low showing.

So, per your own thread, if Surfer operates at a given level 5+ times, that no longer represents his low/high, that's now just his average.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, there are levels. There are low showings that everybody would agree on because it's so blatant and then there are showings that are debatably somewhere between low and average.

So, if you make a thread where average showings are "in" and low showings are "out", you still need a mechanism to distinguish a low showing.

So, per your own thread, if Surfer operates at a given level 5+ times, that no longer represents his low/high, that's now just his average.

And I'm ok with that, but looking at Superman averages when it comes to combat showings, Damage fits right there in between the average and highs based off his showings. Shadowdragon would be a low, not Damage.

Originally posted by abhilegend
According to carver, Poison ivy>Justice League.

Yep, I believe Damage isn't as powerful as Hulk, BUT if Damage fought Hulk and did extremely well against him, it would NOT be a low showing for Hulk since Damage has proven himself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So two feats and a statement is enough to be consistent for him?



Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

If two feats are all that's needed to establish an average, Damage gets KOd by Ivy and Congorilla. I don't even need to bring his showing against Batman up.

Which means his average is either getting stomped by a King Kong wannabe, or stomping Wonder Woman. And round and round we go......

Damage average far exceeds his lows. He's not Hulk level but he WILL give Hulk a good fight based off his fts.

Originally posted by carver9
Damage average far exceeds his lows. He's not Hulk level but he WILL give Hulk a good fight based off his fts.

What do you mean by your first sentence?
He has more showings that contradict his low showings?
For example, he has 3 showings that contradict the 2 low showings?

What determines what far exceeds something else?
Number of showings?

Originally posted by h1a8
What do you mean by your first sentence?
He has more showings that contradict his low showings?
For example, he has 3 showings that contradict the 2 low showings?

What determines what far exceeds something else?
Number of showings?

Damage has 1 low showing, the rest of his fts is either high Herald or above.

Originally posted by carver9
Damage has 1 low showing, the rest of his fts is either high Herald or above.

Really?

Originally posted by carver9
Damage average far exceeds his lows. He's not Hulk level but he WILL give Hulk a good fight based off his fts.

How many showings does he need to establish an average, if Surfer - who has 100x Damage's showings - needs 5?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Really?



How many showings does he need to establish an average, if Surfer - who has 100x Damage's showings - needs 5?

Yes
It's dependant on the character. He's not in this thread, so my 10 to 12 doesn't matter. Looking at his averages, he's comfortably high herald/elite.

Originally posted by carver9
Damage has 1 low showing, the rest of his fts is either high Herald or above.

So it's the number of showings.
1 vs all high Herald or above showings

Originally posted by h1a8
So it's the number of showings.
1 vs all high Herald or above showings

No, it's consistency. Damage has consistently looked great on panel. Even his statements are top tier, like Wonder Woman saying he's stronger than Superman, Superman saying he hits harder than anyone's he's faced, and even saying he punch harder than Doomsday.