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I played through the part with Nihilus in KOTOR II, but I still don't understand him. Why can't he suck the force out of the Jedi Exile? And does he use a powerful version of force drain?

not much is known but some people say that because the exile was... excommunicated from the force he still hadnt fully got his powers so nihihlus couldnt preform his drain

The Jedi Exile is a wound in the force, and it is speculated that Nihilus is a 'force shade' or 'force spectre' created when the Exile divorced himself from the Force at Malachor V. There is a lot of support for this implication in game:

- The jedi masters, Visas, and Kreia all describe the Exile in similar terms used to describe Nihilus.

- The Exile gains the last part of his force back after defeating Nihilus (In particular, if you unmask Nihilus. Retrieving the mask apparently has some sentimental value, and gives the Exile his last force replenishment, + 50 FP in game terms.)

- Visas is bound to both the Exile and Nihilus. Both show intense force bonds with the people around them (In the case of Nihilus, it's one of corruption. The Exile also draws on the powers of others. Kreia's appearance is how he reconnects to the force.)

- Kreia and the Exile share a master-apprentice bond despite not knowing each other before the events of Peragus. However, Kreia was the master to Nihilus beforehand.

- Nihilus being weakened by draining the Exile makes sense if you consider that Nihilus is a force-created shade of the Exile. One cannot feed on one's self. Especially if you're already a wound, bereft of the Force.

There's more, but I can't think about it now.

- Nihilus is the only Sith Lord ever to dissapear in the force. Sith don't dissapear in the force... So that makes Nihilus special.

The Exile was a mediocere Jedi at best before Malachor and then suddenly after that and regaining his connection to the force he becomes one of the most powerful people around. Just like Nihilus he drains the power from people around him. Not to mention the fact that both the Nihilus and the Exile are huge anomoly's never before encountered and never again...

It would make sense if they are part of the same thing.

I don't think that the Exile was a mediocre Jedi. Vandar seems to think that the Exile is charismatic and powerful, Vash in the cut content says "You were always an exceptional student."

The Exile was good enough to command a fair portion of Revan's Republican fleet. Bao-Dur says that you were charismatic.

The only source for the mediocre Jedi thing is Vrook, and Vrook was basically a stupid, callous bastard.

Vandar describes him as an average student with a gift.

Vrook as a mediocere Jedi.

Yes he has a gift, and that is most likely why he would lead an army... Revan had plenty of tacticall skills and great generals serving under him and he had a lot of powerful people too, what he needed was a loyal general. And somebody that could inspire loyalty in others. In his memorry on Korriban republican soldiers are willing to face certain death for him. Thats what Revan needed.

It's pretty much a given that pre-Malachor Exile was an average Jedi in terms of power, though Kavar does mention that the Exile did have a strong connection to the force, it doesn't seem like the Exile capitalized on this. Regardless, under the tutelage of Kreia and through the meetings with the masters the Exile surpasses whatever he was before.

I also have to agree that it's likely that the Exile and Nihilus have a bigger connection than using the same technique, but what exactly may never be reveled, even in a KOTOR 3.

Nihilus comes from nihilism which alternately means a belief in nothingness and as reality as just another state of mind. Some of the tenants of nihilism include the elimination of order and morality, and the removal of all authority and leadership through violent means.

Don't know if that helped, but since this seems to be a theoretical thread i thought i'd present that.
Though nihilus could also come from anihilation....

Nihilus clearly in this case means, nothing...

Its how he is described in the game and it is basically what he does throughout the entire Game. Just like the exile does only in a far bigger scale.

I'd care far more if he wasn't just another in a long line of pointless villains whom you can kill without any real effort.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'd care far more if he wasn't just another in a long line of pointless villains whom you can kill without any real effort.

I suppose so. If only Lucasarts hadn't rushed the game, then we might have some more answers.

It's hard to ever take Nihilius aeriously given what little impact he had on the game....big overture, little show

Nihilius is the Maul of KOTOR.

Good analogy....at least Maul's been expanded on in SOME sources

Nihilus just has very little point. I wish they'd completed KOTOR without pushing it out for Xmas.

They did what?! They quickly finished it to let it get out before christmas?!
What, is it an American product or something? Quantity over quality?
Who could've expected that!

I didn't have too much of a problem with Darth Nihilus, myself. It was clear he wasn't intended to exist as a "character" per se. He was "more presence than man", after all. Visas Marr's "a man, nothing more" line certainly would've have had much power at all if Darth Nihilus had been fully explored and fleshed out as a personality.

I think the biggest problem for most people wasn't any lack of screen time for him, but just that the game didn't really remind the player of him quite enough before the confrontation with him. I tend to forgive it because the story wasn't too significantly about Darth Nihilus anyway.

Which only reinforces him being pointless, then.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Which only reinforces him being pointless, then.
Err... I don't really understand that train of thought. Plenty of stories have more than one antagonist and thus antagonists who aren't completely central to stuff. It's like saying all the little Sith lackeys and other enemies throughout the game should be removed because they aren't the final boss.

Besides, I didn't say Darth Nihilus was unimportant. I was emphasizing that he wasn't the primary focus. I still thought he had a pretty strong off-screen presence throughout the game anyway, for the most part. The story just stood to gain from a bit more of that.

I don't quite know why everyone's so intent on judging Darth Nihilus as though he should've had a fully fleshed-out backstory and maybe a sob story to go with it or something, though. That would've just detracted from what he was intended to be. He wasn't meant to have a clear past as an individual beyond Malachor V.

If Nihilus is on the cover, I daresay they should have made him a more central villain. That, and they hyped him up way to much.

Originally posted by Bespin Bart
If Nihilus is on the cover, I daresay they should have made him a more central villain. That, and they hyped him up way to much.
Blame the advertising, then. Not the game.

I would have liked Nihilus to have more FMVs showing him being uber, and a boss fight that was ridiculously hard. I mean, I remember having to play it smart with shields while fighting Malak (I always play the games on the highest difficulty) but with Nihilus I just flurried his ass to death.

Originally posted by Grant Dempsey
Err... I don't really understand that train of thought. Plenty of stories have more than one antagonist and thus antagonists who aren't completely central to stuff. It's like saying all the little Sith lackeys and other enemies throughout the game should be removed because they aren't the final boss.

Besides, I didn't say Darth Nihilus was unimportant. I was emphasizing that he wasn't the primary focus. I still thought he had a pretty strong off-screen presence throughout the game anyway, for the most part. The story just stood to gain from a bit more of that.

I don't quite know why everyone's so intent on judging Darth Nihilus as though he should've had a fully fleshed-out backstory and maybe a sob story to go with it or something, though. That would've just detracted from what he was intended to be. He wasn't meant to have a clear past as an individual beyond Malachor V.

Bit part villains should have bit part backgrounds. Nihilus was instead grafted onto the background befitting a central character, which he was not. It was a complete waste of everyone's time.

It wasn't even a good fight- and dramatically speaking, Nihilus added nothing at all to the story.

Off-screen presence is pointless without the pay-off. Nihilus had none.

The story wasn;t about him. He added nothing to the plot. His scenes, his background, were all without value.

Hence, he was an entirely pointless character, easily hacked down by the game's rampantly overpowered abilities.

Darth Nihilus wasn't really a character. At least not in the sense you seem to be pushing for. He was a presence. The threat he posed and the origins of that were ultimately the bulk of his story, which still contributed to the rest of the game, through his connection to Malachor V and thus the Exile.

I don't insist that he was worthless without a past as an individual himself, a clear personality on the same level as most other beings in the galaxy, and a series of totally neato cutscenes with him killing people and spouting one-liners while doing so, because I see more point in trying to look at things from the perspective of how he was even intended. The lack of subtitles for his gurgling dialogue should have made it clear already that he was "larger than life" in an ominous and mysterious sort of way. At a certain point, it's almost like saying Godzilla should always be developed as a human being would be.

I don't hold the lack of difficulty to Darth Nihilus' fight against him either. I can't say challenge is the first thing on my mind when I go into a Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic game. Besides, that's more something to criticize the gameplay system and design, or the way that particular boss fight was set up, for. I wouldn't smash the character itself for that at all, really.

I'd agree that the confrontation with Darth Nihilus came -- and then was over -- too suddenly, in the context of the story. The whole sequence leading to that through Telos was what really could have benefitted from something more. However, you just don't seem to be even bothering to approach how things could have been improved at all, other than to say that a "backstory" (which he had -- just not one too personal to him as an individual) was somehow completely crucial to the character as it was.

The lack of challenge simply belied the complete non-event that was huis confrontation. He was a total non-event; there was no more drama in his fight than against any of the sabre wielders in the final segment.

In a dramatic sense in a game like this, challenge should absolutely be a factor or the immersion of the game is destroyed.

Saying he is not really a character seems to have nothing to do with the issue, and his connection to the plot is pure fluff. Fluff has no value. He should have provided drama, plot, purpose. Instead he was just there. Any idiot can write a few lines that seem to make him relevant. But take him out and would there have been any important difference? None. The fluff that ties hm in seems only justififed because... he was put it. It's circular. No value.

You think a major character- as Nihilus was clearly intended to be- does not deserve a proper build up? And a pay-off to that build up? Then I have absolutely no comprehension of what you consider good storytelling, because from where I am- and I have written plenty, and far better than KOTOR II- it's crappy drama.

Having made the criticisms, the ways the situation could be improved should be obvious. Nihilus should either have been given a proper stake in the plot, or removed entirely. You can't just drop in a pointless Sith Lord like that. It's too big a thing to be that laissez faire about.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
In a dramatic sense in a game like this, challenge should absolutely be a factor or the immersion of the game is destroyed.

We're judging the merits of the storytelling here, examining the character in that context. Obviously flaws in the gameplay design will affect one's opinion of the overall product and that particular event as a whole, but it's pointless to spin this discussion around and bring up the game's programming when we're talking about the storytelling specifically.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Saying he is not really a character seems to have nothing to do with the issue, and his connection to the plot is pure fluff. Fluff has no value. He should have provided drama, plot, purpose. Instead he was just there. Any idiot can write a few lines that seem to make him relevant. But take him out and would there have been any important difference? None. The fluff that ties hm in seems only justififed because... he was put it. It's circular. No value.

How would a personal backstory have changed this, then? You're approaching Darth Nihilus as though he were Malak or Darth Vader. He wasn't, and the story made it rather clear that he wasn't even intended to be. The nature and origins of the threat he posed was the bulk of his story. His connection to Malachor V -- and his representation of the "Force echoes" (which were an important point throughout the story) -- linked him to the Exile and was his dramatic importance to the game's plot.

It wasn't necessary to know who he was before he became "Darth Nihilus" and indeed it would have only taken away from his character and role in the story more than add to it. Again, you're approaching Darth Nihilus with a very strict mindset as to what he "should" have contributed, yet you're leaving no room for the possibility that what he gave to the story was not supposed to be through his personal identity or backstory as an individual. His character had a different point, and certainly not one immediately irrelevant.

A character serve any sort of purpose within a story. The quality of the writing and the storytelling in relation to any given character should mostly, I feel, be judged according to how well they fit and represented the intention with which they were conceived in the first place. (You wouldn't exactly criticize Luke Skywalker for not being "evil" enough, would you?) Your view is more restricting than it is "correct". The fact that Darth Nihilus had a human shape does not leave the writers obligated to treat him strictly in the manner you seem to be suggesting and no other, nor does it or should it invalidate any other sort of role he played in -- or contribution he made to -- the story.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You think a major character- as Nihilus was clearly intended to be- does not deserve a proper build up? And a pay-off to that build up? Then I have absolutely no comprehension of what you consider good storytelling, because from where I am- and I have written plenty, and far better than KOTOR II- it's crappy drama.

I agreed with you. The build-up to the confrontation with Darth Nihilus was flawed. It came and went. It felt sudden and rushed. There are other reasons for that feeling than Darth Nihilus' lack of a personal backstory, however, and other ways in which it could have been improved than adding one to him. So far, you're just attacking the concepts behind him more than the storytelling flaws in how he was presented.

I hope Nihilus comes out in pt3...you know what would be funny? If Nihilus was the Exile's twin brother. That would explain why Nihilus and the Exile appeared to be similar in their force auras.

Ushgarak, you could never write a story better than KOTOR. Your writing skills suck.

You're 28 too. You have got to admit man, you are pretty stupid for your age. You can prove me wrong by posting one of your super cool stories.

And what, you could write a story better than KotOR?

Originally posted by kingkman
You're 28 too. You have got to admit man, you are pretty stupid for your age. You can prove me wrong by posting one of your super cool stories.

STFU, you're reported. Hope they permaban you this time.

same, hes just an idiot

Originally posted by kingkman
Ushgarak, you could never write a story better than KOTOR. Your writing skills suck.



Seriously, that made me laugh, and it made me laugh hard. He's written stuff far better than KOTOR, you moronic fool.

Originally posted by kingkman
You're 28 too. You have got to admit man, you are pretty stupid for your age. You can prove me wrong by posting one of your super cool stories.

And you're pretty stupid and immature for not having an age. Now, go read the RPG sections for Ush's games. They make KOTOR seem like a fairy tale...

Enough, first, kingkman, that is your opinion, and second, no KotOR bashing. And thats not needed Janus.

Originally posted by Nactous
Enough, first, kingkman, that is your opinion, and second, no KotOR bashing. And thats not needed Janus.

Who died and appointed you king? First off, kingman's opinion was out of line and derogatory towards a staff member who wasn't even present to defend himself. Second, people are allowed to bash KOTOR just the same as they should be allowed to bash ROTS, TPM or ANH, etc. Just because you're a serious KOTOR fanboy doesn't mean everyone has to avoid cracking at the game for your sake. And third, I reported kingman because that's what we're supposed to do when people are flaming staff or other members, or are otherwise breeching the rules of the forum. So yes, it was needed. kingman makes it a point to call people 'morons', 'fools', and 'idiots' just for the sake of being obnoxious.

So, piss off.

Oh Snap!

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Who died and appointed you king? First off, kingman's opinion was out of line and derogatory towards a staff member who wasn't even present to defend himself. Second, people are allowed to bash KOTOR just the same as they should be allowed to bash ROTS, TPM or ANH, etc. Just because you're a serious KOTOR fanboy doesn't mean everyone has to avoid cracking at the game for your sake. And third, I reported kingman because that's what we're supposed to do when people are flaming staff or other members, or are otherwise breeching the rules of the forum. So yes, it was needed. kingman makes it a point to call people 'morons', 'fools', and 'idiots' just for the sake of being obnoxious.

So, piss off.
Christ, must you make a post will out putting people down. I am pretty sure Ushgarak can handle himself, so, inless your a part of a solution, your a part of the problem.

I generally try not to insult people, but you just ask for it. Every time I see you, you're the self-righteous, grammatically challenged KOTOR avenger and you should probably not even stick your nose in it unless you're willing to get it snipped off. You have no damn right telling me what is neccessary or what I should do when you're average contribution to this forum is "Kotor r teh rulez!" So please, go away and play KOTOR for the 1,435th time.

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I generally try not to insult people, but you just ask for it. Every time I see you, you're the self-righteous, grammatically challenged KOTOR avenger and you should probably not even stick your nose in it unless you're willing to get it snipped off. You have no damn right telling me what is neccessary or what I should do when you're average contribution to this forum is "Kotor r teh rulez!" So please, go away and play KOTOR for the 1,435th time.

Whoa, arnt your grown up.

Hmm, I kind of like the idea of Nihilus being the Exile's spectre of sorts, I hadn't thought of it that way before, and when you do think about it, it really makes a lot of sense...

That seems to me the most plausible explanation...

Heres how I see it, Nihilus is a main character, but he doesnt play a main role. Sure he is mentened in the game, he is vital to the back story but not to the plot of two.

I see Nihilus as being pretty pointless and I haven't even finished the game yet.

KOTOR2's not really impressing me.

KOTOR 2 failed in comprasion to Kotor 1 , i have both games , they even took out the droid factory in 2 , Nihilus is pointless be cause he is one of the easiest boss ever!,but their is a kotor 2 restoration team , that plan to bring back out kotor 2 something this year,that are putting things back in like visas fighting nihilus or something like that can't remember , and the droid factory , I hope it turns out to be good, google it and u should find the website

KotOR II would have pwned the original if it has been completed, withough LucasArts rushing it.

Originally posted by Master Naresh
KOTOR 2 failed in comprasion to Kotor 1 , i have both games , they even took out the droid factory in 2 , Nihilus is pointless be cause he is one of the easiest boss ever!,but their is a kotor 2 restoration team , that plan to bring back out kotor 2 something this year,that are putting things back in like visas fighting nihilus or something like that can't remember , and the droid factory , I hope it turns out to be good, google it and u should find the website
Finally your back.