Phoenix Force vs. Living Tribunal.

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id369
PF decides its time to bring an end and a new binning at a multi-verse level. LT decides its not time for such event and plans to stop the PF.

No PIS/CIS
Blood Lust is on.

Who wins this match at a cosmic level?

supervenom
LT easily. He follows the commands of TOAA, Phoenix Force isn't even close to that.

Jose123
in a what if comic i believe the Phoenix force was actually being held by the LT as if it were a little pet.

It's not cannon but i still liked that scene.


Anyway LT takes this. To me he just seems higher on the cosmic hierarchy.

supervenom
LT is actually in charge of the "What If" universe as well as all other universes since he is a servant of TOAA. He is unphased.

Sir Whirlysplat
Agreed guys shifty waits for the essay of drivel to arrive from a certain someone shifty

Scoobless
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/LT- Phoenix5.jpg

From: "What If the X-Men lost Inferno"

id369
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2556/theuncannyxmen108146bz.th.jpg

Mider
i hope your joking about the what ifs less i remind you that LT was defeated by Korvac in the what if who is not as strong as eternity or at least as strong but not stronger.

Jose123
Originally posted by Mider
i hope your joking about the what ifs less i remind you that LT was defeated by Korvac in the what if who is not as strong as eternity or at least as strong but not stronger.

were not. we just think it was a cool scene.


That being said Phoenix goes down. What if or 616. doesn't matter.

id369

golem370
What book was it where LT had any trouble with Korvac?

GalacticStorm
According to X-men Forever during each creation cycle LT and the abstracts get replaced by an evolved humanity. Phoenix is the force which co-ordinates and fuels this process and it keeps the creation cycle going on forever Big Bang after Big Bang. While the abstracts are reflections of the universe and their roles can be usurped and re-allocated at any time during the creation cycle (as we've been shown previously on panel via the IG saga for example) Phoenix is a constant throughout.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/8144/xmenforever1p191sr.th.jpg

Some people stubbornly doubt LT is caught up in the process and try to claim he isnt the being who is drawn in the series. Heres the source and background info page:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4480/xmenforever1sources5uu.th.jpg

Heres Jean talking to Death about Phoenixes role in the process:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9310/xmenforever3p06and077bo.th.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/583/xmenforever3p081oz.th.jpg

GalacticStorm

GalacticStorm

Jose123
^^^ where does the One above all fit into all of that?
Was he even mentioned. I just skimed it so maybe he was.

Who was that story writen by?

golem370
I would love to see it try.

Jose123
and isn't the LT only second to the one above all or at least only reports directly to him.



Somehow i doubt the Phoenix force is above The one above all. You know. Being above all and such.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Jose123
^^^ where does the One above all fit into all of that?
Was he even mentioned. I just skimed it so maybe he was.

Who was that story writen by?

If TOAA is truly the supreme being (something has only been hinted at not conclusively shown) then if Phoenix co-ordinates LT's replacement as part of the natural order well i'll leave you to make your own conclusions.

Either way its what happens naturally and the fact that the power can be employed to pervert the process and bend it to a persons will says it all.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Jose123
and isn't the LT only second to the one above all or at least only reports directly to him.



Somehow i doubt the Phoenix force is above The one above all. You know. Being above all and such.

If Phoenix does it as part of the natural order who's to say that it doesnt work for Marvels supreme being as has been suggested on panel.

Another thing to remember about TOAA is that all that sbeen said about him/it is that its a being above gods and it has greater power than the IG and Eternity. Many things do. Its never actually been stated that its Marvels supreme being, only suggested. Therefore its not canon.

Jose123
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If TOAA is truly the supreme being (something has only been hinted at not conclusively shown) then if Phoenix co-ordinates LT's replacement as part of the natural order well i'll leave you to make your own conclusions.



that the one above all allows the Phoenix force to do it.

golem370
The List goes TOAA HOTU LT PF GF etc etc

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Jose123
that the one above all allows the Phoenix force to do it.

Exactly. It could be that its working on behalf of the supreme being. However that is something thats suggested so its not canon. But either way Phoenix gives you powerenough to humble LT as stated on panel so that part isnt debatable.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by golem370
The List goes TOAA HOTU LT PF GF etc etc

TOAA is just the name for LTs boss its never been stated anywhere that its the supreme being. Only that power wise its beyond the IG and Eternity. As for LT being beyond Phoenix you have a canon comic telling you that the power can make a person supreme in reality and Eternity confirms this so why are you debating?

golem370
Because Eternity has been wrong before LT has pointed that out before

golem370
Was TOAA a celestial?The One Above All is of unknown origin (You can make up whatever you like. I'd guess he could be a Celestial, who got tired of all the judging, etc. and decided to settle down). It dwelled on Templeworld, and it was immensely powerful, and provided lifegiving energies to several planets for an unknown length of time. It eventually sacrificed its life to provide for long term defenses for Templeworld. While the One Above All gave his power willingly, all other "gods" of the Soul Survivors were captured and used against their wills.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by golem370
Because Eternity has been wrong before LT has pointed that out before

Thats not a good enough reason to dismiss an on panel depiction stating the debated point. LT has been wrong before. Does that mean i can dismiss any on panel point he makes which doesnt suit my tastes?

Jose123
Originally posted by golem370
Was TOAA a celestial?The One Above All is of unknown origin (You can make up whatever you like. I'd guess he could be a Celestial, who got tired of all the judging, etc. and decided to settle down). It dwelled on Templeworld, and it was immensely powerful, and provided lifegiving energies to several planets for an unknown length of time. It eventually sacrificed its life to provide for long term defenses for Templeworld. While the One Above All gave his power willingly, all other "gods" of the Soul Survivors were captured and used against their wills.

i believe that was a different TOAA. a celestial wouldn't be able to order around the LT.

golem370
One question where the hell of Phoenix Force during the Gauntlet & HOTU I seen LT stop the IG with his masters powers not until the Master is shown to be PF then he is in charge of Marvel Reality. He make the decisions He Judge Jury and Executioner appointed by his Master

golem370
But there is two One Above Alls that one and this one

GalacticStorm
LT attacking Korvac with his "ultimate punishment" and then fleeing the universe and sealing it off after it flopped:

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7695/page321oa.th.jpg

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4283/page336se.th.jpg

Korvac had the assembled power of 6 cosmics.

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1084/page349ee.th.jpg

Jose123
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT attacking Korvac with his "ultimate punishment" and then fleeing the universe and sealing it off after it flopped:

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/7695/page321oa.th.jpg

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4283/page336se.th.jpg

Korvac had the assembled power of 6 cosmics.

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/1084/page349ee.th.jpg

Maybe the One above all ordered him to lose? wink laughing

golem370
What does that prove did LT stop him or not?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by golem370
One question where the hell of Phoenix Force during the Gauntlet & HOTU I seen LT stop the IG with his masters powers not until the Master is shown to be PF then he is in charge of Marvel Reality. He make the decisions He Judge Jury and Executioner appointed by his Master

Have you thought that maybe those events werent in her jurisdiction. Phoenix as stated on panel works to maintain the creation cycle. Thats its role. In the IG saga Thanos only sought to replace Eternitys importance with his own which is part of the natural order. Survival of the fittest. Thats why even LT said he wouldnt get involved with that.

As for HOTU i can only assume it wasnt her jurisdiction or the writer just never thought to use her. But then you can turn it around and say where was LT during the M'kraan crystal incident? That threatened to blink out the multiverse which would effectively have left him unemployed. But noone seems to remember that. The fact of the matter is that it wasnt his jurisdiction because as stated only Phoenix can work the crystal, hence why she was there for a threat debatably greater than the others you've mentioned.

Both of them werent there to stop Wanda during House of M. Does that detract from their roles in Marvel? No. We really have no answer as to why that was the case. It works both ways.

golem370
The Spectre that first came to be in the Comic book is he as powerful back then as He is to day?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by golem370
What does that prove did LT stop him or not?

Nope. Lt as he states there had nothing left in his arsenal to stop Korvac so he fled leaving that universe to its fate. He abandoned those in his care writing off that universe as a lost cause. Korvac went on to succeed in his aim of achieving absolute order in that universe. So no LT didnt stop him. He couldnt so he sealed off that universe ensuring he wouldnt have to deal with him again.

He did the same thing when he couldnt handle the StarBrand.

GalacticStorm
bump

GODSCRIBE
But presently LT is still greater than PF...until the end of the cycle. That's what I understood from the scans.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
But presently LT is still greater than PF...until the end of the cycle. That's what I understood from the scans.

How did you interpret that? At any time someone could wield the power to make themselves the supreme being that was the Strangers plans so your observation doesnt make sense.

Eternity was saying that the force brings about the process naturally at the end of each cycle but the fact that someone can wield the power to bring about the end at any time shows you your observation is not the case. Thats why Eternity intervened and asked Jean not to allow Stranger to gain access to the Phoenix.

GODSCRIBE
yeah, i glanced over this scan

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8223/xmenforever6p161zq.jpg

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
TOAA is just the name for LTs boss its never been stated anywhere that its the supreme being. Only that power wise its beyond the IG and Eternity. As for LT being beyond Phoenix you have a canon comic telling you that the power can make a person supreme in reality and Eternity confirms this so why are you debating?

If TOAA is boss of LT, it's also boss of Phoenix Force. If someone created Phoenix Force, which it was, it was created by TOAA. He is not called THE ONE ABOVE ALL for nothing cause he is ABOVE ALL, competley ABOVE EVERYTHING.
Seeing what Eternity has been talking about, Eternity thinks actully that Phoenix is beyond any abstracts, including LT.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
If TOAA is boss of LT, it's also boss of Phoenix Force. If someone created Phoenix Force, which it was, it was created by TOAA. He is not called THE ONE ABOVE ALL for nothing cause he is ABOVE ALL, competley ABOVE EVERYTHING.

With people disputing the Phoenix/God connection i recently looked into the LT/God connection and found that the case for such a relationship was incredibly poor. Nowhere on panel has it ever been stated that TOAA is marvels supreme being. That was just an assumption that everyone around here seems to have lapped up. All thats ever been said about LT's boss is that hes beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. That doesnt conclusively make you supreme being because since the IG saga there have been a number of powers shown to be greater than those things.

By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon.


Originally posted by Xplosive
Seeing what Eternity has been talking about, Eternity thinks actully that Phoenix is beyond any abstracts, including LT.

Agreed

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
yeah, i glanced over this scan

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8223/xmenforever6p161zq.jpg

Ok cool. X-men Forever fits in with what was said in Classic X-men:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1598/clxmen2430edited1da.th.jpg

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

I knew you are going to say that. Bur forger Celestail, he is nothing
to LT.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon.

For TOAA is 99,999...% chance that is actually supreme being with no limits. Didnt' even almighy Thanos with HOTU (I don't remember really) said that was maipulated by someone even greater.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
I knew you are going to say that. Bur forger Celestail, he is nothing
to LT.

And thats precisely the point. Your logic is that the very name TOAA should be proof enough that LTs master is the supreme being, however the very fact that a Celestial exists who goes by that same name shows you the faulty nature of that logic. All that has been stated about TOAA is that its beyond the IG and Eternity. Many powers are.

So again while its suggested that TOAA might just be Marvels supreme being we dont know for sure as nothings been stated as it has been in DC for example.



Originally posted by Xplosive
For TOAA is 99,999...% chance that is actually supreme being with no limits. Didnt' even almighy Thanos with HOTU (I don't remember really) said that was maipulated by someone even greater.

Yes but he didnt say that the manipulation was by TOAA. Ive already highlighted what was revealed about TOAA. For all we know Thanos was beyond TOAA (being beyond Eternity and the IG) and theres a supreme being in Marvel which has yet to be revealed. We just dont know.

Mider
the era of the living jobber is comming to an end

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Mider
the era of the living jobber is comming to an end

Indeed. big grin

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes but he didnt say that the manipulation was by TOAA. Ive already highlighted what was revealed about TOAA. For all we know Thanos was beyond TOAA (being beyond Eternity and the IG) and theres a supreme being in Marvel which has yet to be revealed. We just dont know.

He was manipulated by God Almighty or TOAA (because no one else could do it). No, we don't know Thanos was beyond TOAA (what are you talking about). We know TOAA is beyond LT, LT is powered by him. TOAA is still the one who manipualted Thanos.
If you know Thanos is beyond TOAA (really don't know what are you talking aobut), than I also know TOAA is beyond Thanos (all we know Thanos was manipualted, and that is probably by God or in other words, by TOAA). He said, there is even greater force, well yes, TOAA or The One Above All, cause he is above all, Thanos said, there is even greater force, and The One Above All (the one who LT refered to and not Celestial), means greater force than anything. Thanos Almighty was manipualted by TOAA. All we know THOTU is beyond Phoenix Force.
Supreme being will never be revealed, the Supreme being is the one who manipulated Thanos, and that is TOAA.
You always said TOAA is beyond anything unitl recent, until you were convinced about Phoenix Force, when you accepted that is not part of TOAA, that it's not fact. You turned against TOAA, like you are jelaous, because Phoenix Force is not part of TOAA.
Supreme beign will never be shown, only mentioned that he manipulated THOTU, what more do you want (easily manipulated THOTU), I think that is enough aobut seeing the supreme being (because you won't get any higher than that).
We know THOTU showed power that made LT insect including Phoenix Force and any other cosmic entity, being. And was still manipulated by higher being, so, we really won't get any higher than that.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
He was manipulated by God Almighty or TOAA (because no one else could do it). No, we don't know Thanos was beyond TOAA (what are you talking about). We know TOAA is beyond LT, LT is powered by him. TOAA is still the one who manipualted Thanos.
If you know Thanos is beyond TOAA (really don't know what are you talking aobut), than I also know TOAA is beyond Thanos (all we know Thanos was manipualted, and that is probably by God or in other words, by TOAA). He said, there is even greater force, well yes, TOAA or The One Above All, cause he is above all, Thanos said, there is even greater force, and The One Above All (the one who LT refered to and not Celestial), means greater force than anything. Thanos Almighty was manipualted by TOAA. All we know THOTU is beyond Phoenix Force.
Supreme being will never be revealed, the Supreme being is the one who manipulated Thanos, and that is TOAA.
You always said TOAA is beyond anything unitl recent, until you were convinced about Phoenix Force, when you accepted that is not part of TOAA, that it's not fact. You turned against TOAA, like you are jelaous, because Phoenix Force is not part of TOAA.
Supreme beign will never be shown, only mentioned that he manipulated THOTU, what more do you want (easily manipulated THOTU), I think that is enough aobut seeing the supreme being (because you won't get any higher than that).
We know THOTU showed power that made LT insect including Phoenix Force and any other cosmic entity, being. And was still manipulated by higher being, so, we really won't get any higher than that.

Your entire post is based on the assumption that TOAA is the supreme being of Marvel. XP you need to understand that that is only an assumption it is not a canon fact as that point has never ever been stated in any Marvel comic. Regardless of whats suggested it hasnt been stated therefore its not canon.

I never said that Thanos with HOTU was beyond TOAA i said FOR ALL WE KNOW Thanos was beyond TOAA. Why? Because all we have ever been told about TOAA is that its LTs boss and that its a force beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. Many powers are beyond those things but are they to supreme beings?

In Marvel Universe The End Thanos speculated that HOTU was the supreme beings power, you need to understand that. Nowhere was it stated by a non biased source(e.g a character or caption other than Thanos) that it was the supreme beings power. Thanos just came to this conclusion because of the scope of the power and what it enabled him to do. He said the same thing about the IG and that turned out to be far from the case. All we know about it is that its a powerful energy source that enabled Thanos to humble LT and destroy 616. The same thing has been achieved by Korvac with the assembled power of 6 cosmics and is as stated/shown on panel well within the capabilities of the Phoenix Force.

You've said that Thanos said there was a force beyond HOTU. It wasnt stated that that was TOAA. On top of that LT never claimed a connection to the power behind HOTU therefore you've just made an unsupported assumption.

Please dont reply with a long post saying why you think TOAA is the supreme being. That has never ever been stated. Therefore its not canon. That is a fact. I will say once again, all that has been revealed about LTs master is that its beyond the IG and Eternity. Many forces are so that in itself doesnt make it the supreme being.

Its name TOAA also isnt enough to treat it as the supreme being as there are other beings with the same name so that is faulty logic.

The reason im doing this XP is because regardless of the wealth of evidence supporting a god connection for Phoenix, without the point being stated on panel i had to accept that it wasnt canon, only heavily suggested. Your entire argument above is based on assumptions theres little fact to it, no on panel evidence conclusively verifying it. You need to accept that while Marvel does for all we know have a supreme being, it is not conclusively TOAA.

outarddwarf
all this talk about supreme being makes my head hurt! why don't we talk about what really matters, who would win in a fight Monkey Joe or Tippie Toe?

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
all that has been revealed about LTs master is that its beyond the IG and Eternity.

And beyond LT himself, and in MU, there actully isn't anyone beyond LT, maybe only Phoenix, no one else.
And DC/Marvel crossover, remember, weren't they looking for the same supreme bieng, in DC called The Presence (who we know is the supreme being in DCU) and LT refered to TOAA his master, and both DC/Marvel were looking for the same being, the same God, and we know in DCU, The Presence is supreme. And if they were looking the same, doesn't that mean, LT's master (who is TOAA) is the same being as The Presence. Canon or not, but doesn't that tell that Marvel obviously think that LT's master is the supreme being as is The Presence.

Mider
LT's feats dont show him being as powerful as anyone has said in the past they say in a what if he humbled Pheonix but as its shown in this thread Pheonix humbles him now because of her conection to the living aspects of the universe she cant be destroyed when galactus tried to consume her the stars began to die but in this thread its been shown that she recreatas everything does LT have that kind of power since not even TOAA has had that power when Thanos was TOAA IMO he had to expend all his powers just to recreate the multiverse i think that every universe has its own PF that recreats it or whatever if its destroyed. There are other lesser known characters in the MU called the time twisters they tried destroying everything by going from the end of time to the very beginning along the way they would destroy the previous universe. They had the power to age something to the point of being dust or to regress it to the point of never being created there judgements were said to be beyond even that of the LT.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mider
LT's feats dont show him being as powerful as anyone has said in the past they say in a what if he humbled Pheonix but as its shown in this thread Pheonix humbles him now because of her conection to the living aspects of the universe she cant be destroyed when galactus tried to consume her the stars began to die but in this thread its been shown that she recreatas everything does LT have that kind of power since not even TOAA has had that power when Thanos was TOAA IMO he had to expend all his powers just to recreate the multiverse i think that every universe has its own PF that recreats it or whatever if its destroyed.

THOTU recreated the universe and all life with a blink of an eye and gave new rule, I think if THOTU would chose he could do to the Phoenix Force to never exist and could give new rule for who to create new universe. THOTU is immesurably beyond Phoenix Force.
But was still control by higher beings, probably by TOAA himself.

Mider
ummm THOTU was thanos powers and he had to kill himself or didnt you read the ending were warlock said he had to sacrifice himself thats the reason TOAA gave him his powers in the first place so he himself wouldnt have to die.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mider
ummm THOTU was thanos powers and he had to kill himself or didnt you read the ending were warlock said he had to sacrifice himself thats the reason TOAA gave him his powers in the first place so he himself wouldnt have to die.

What, Thanos didn't kill himself. He only realized he is not the being to wield almighty power.

Mider
what do you mean he didnt kill himself it was shown in the end he sacrificed himself.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With people disputing the Phoenix/God connection i recently looked into the LT/God connection and found that the case for such a relationship was incredibly poor. Nowhere on panel has it ever been stated that TOAA is marvels supreme being. That was just an assumption that everyone around here seems to have lapped up. All thats ever been said about LT's boss is that hes beyond the IG and Eternity. Thats all. That doesnt conclusively make you supreme being because since the IG saga there have been a number of powers shown to be greater than those things.

By your logic the Celestial called TOAA would be greater than LT,IG, Phoenix etc.

It has been suggested that TOAA is the supreme being. However with nothing stated its not canon.




Agreed



yes its true that the existance of TOAA is vaguely hinted n people should accept that, however for the sake of clarity TOAA is said to exist as the unseen higher power, ofcourse its no more concrete than ur version of the pheonix n people should stop debatin mindlessly that TOAA gave thanos THOTU or watever cause thas never been proven.

Mider
it sure seemed proven by thanos himself when he said he was tricked.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
And beyond LT himself, and in MU, there actully isn't anyone beyond LT, maybe only Phoenix, no one else.
And DC/Marvel crossover, remember, weren't they looking for the same supreme bieng, in DC called The Presence (who we know is the supreme being in DCU) and LT refered to TOAA his master, and both DC/Marvel were looking for the same being, the same God, and we know in DCU, The Presence is supreme. And if they were looking the same, doesn't that mean, LT's master (who is TOAA) is the same being as The Presence. Canon or not, but doesn't that tell that Marvel obviously think that LT's master is the supreme being as is The Presence.

In that crossover they were apparently going to have one of the brothers as TOAA and one as the Presence however as the idea was scrapped, the fact that that crossover has never been canon and also that the brothers were retconned recently in X-men adventures that means you cant look into that and make assumptions and try to pass them off in debate as canon fact. It just doesnt work like that.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTU recreated the universe and all life with a blink of an eye and gave new rule, I think if THOTU would chose he could do to the Phoenix Force to never exist and could give new rule for who to create new universe. THOTU is immesurably beyond Phoenix Force.
But was still control by higher beings, probably by TOAA himself.

This is another assumption and its not supported XP. If you think HOTU is beyond The Phoenix Force than fair enough thats up to you, however you cant state that point as canon fact on these boards. That point cant be treated as such when theres no on panel evidence supporting it. The Phoenix Force wasnt even involved in that saga and on top of that the feats Thanos accomplished with HOTU have been bettered in the past by Phoenix. A connection between TOAA and HOTU was never established. LT never commented once on the origins of the power. Again i say for all we know Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA as all thats been revealed is that its more powerful than the IG. Nothing has been shown or stated to make the idea that its the supreme being canon.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes its true that the existance of TOAA is vaguely hinted n people should accept that, however for the sake of clarity TOAA is said to exist as the unseen higher power, ofcourse its no more concrete than ur version of the pheonix n people should stop debatin mindlessly that TOAA gave thanos THOTU or watever cause thas never been proven.

True but my idea of Phoenix has considerably more on panel support.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This is another assumption and its not supported XP. If you think HOTU is beyond The Phoenix Force than fair enough thats up to you, however you cant state that point as canon fact on these boards. That point cant be treated as such when theres no on panel evidence supporting it.

Again, I didn't say as canon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix Force wasnt even involved in that saga and on top of that the feats Thanos accomplished with HOTU have been bettered in the past by Phoenix.

Only beacuse THOTU was for two issues. Phoenix is here, puf, too long.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A connection between TOAA and HOTU was never established. LT never commented once on the origins of the power. Again i say for all we know Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA

What are you talking about. We don't know that, what. All we know it was controled by higher being (canon), that is what we know. And all we know for 100% is that there is higher power than THOTU (and the one will never be revealed, only mentioned, like it was by Thanos).

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
Again, I didn't say as canon.

Well if youre not saying its canon then you should make that point clear when weighing the powers up against each other. Previously you were talking as if your ideas had some basis in fact, that you were conclusively right.



Originally posted by Xplosive
Only beacuse THOTU was for two issues. Phoenix is here, puf, too long.

How do you know thats the only reason why Phoenix has better feats. That statement in itself is an assumption that HOTU is more powerful when you have no evidence to support such a claim. It could just be that it simply isnt as powerful. But who knows.



Originally posted by Xplosive
What are you talking about. We don't know that, what. All we know it was controled by higher being (canon), that is what we know. And all we know for 100% is that there is higher power than THOTU (and the one will never be revealed, only mentioned, like it was by Thanos).

XP you seem to be getting caught up on my wording. Just like last time i said FOR ALL WE KNOW Thanos with HOTU was more powerful than TOAA. Meaning that as nothing conclusive is stated on the matter, you cant argue against or for the point. Its just a possibility. All we know of TOAA is that its beyond the IG and as the same thing is stated about HOTU and as no connection is drawn between HOTU and TOAA you its possible that HOTU is more powerful than TOAA.

We know nothing of TOAA to claim him to be the supreme being . The being Thanos speculated to be manipulating him into carrying out its work could be virtually anyone.

Mider
why are you two still fighting this thread is to show that the pheonix is more powerful then the Living Tribunal.....its already been done.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Mider
why are you two still fighting this thread is to show that the pheonix is more powerful then the Living Tribunal.....its already been done.

Oh we're not debating that point we're just debating over who TOAA is and where HOTU comes from.

Youre right LTs been dealt with. We did it Mider wink

Mider
LT MUAHAHAHAHA BOW YOUR HEAD IN SHAME BEFORE THOSE WHO HAVE DEFEATED YOU YOU LOWLY SECOND CLASS WANNA BE SPECTRE..........but anyway if Thanos The End is indeed canon from what i read and i hope i know what i read less im losing it and dont know it (its a possibility) thanos was indeed TOAA because when refuring to who's powers had been taken thanos infurred that eternity knew this being and was so scared of him that he never dared to ask anything and the LT called this power and eternity as well they called it the power supreme

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How do you know thats the only reason why Phoenix has better feats.

Because that is the only reason. And wait, no Phoenix feats equals that of THOTU. Completely humilating the enitre powerhouses, everyone, everyone, destroying and recreating universe with new rule with a blink of an eye, deleting mamory of everyone.
No Phoenix feats surpasses that. What, holding universe in pale of her hands, also Living Tribunal would be able to do that. Or with difficult defeating Galactus or M'Krann crystal (which maby isn't greater feat than LT easily dwaring the power of IG, while IG made Eternity insect), well LT could also do that, stoping M'Krann crystal. Or mentioned by Eternity that Phoenix is what it is (but it was no feat, only word from Eternity).
Now tell me Phoenix feat. No Phoenix feat can match the one of THOTU.
I believe Phoenix is more powerful than LT, but insect to THOTU.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
We know nothing of TOAA to claim him to be the supreme being . The being Thanos speculated to be manipulating him into carrying out its work could be virtually anyone.

The End showed there is higher force than THOTU.

Originally posted by Mider
LT MUAHAHAHAHA BOW YOUR HEAD IN SHAME BEFORE THOSE WHO HAVE DEFEATED YOU YOU LOWLY SECOND CLASS WANNA BE SPECTRE..........but anyway if Thanos The End is indeed canon from what i read and i hope i know what i read less im losing it and dont know it (its a possibility) thanos was indeed TOAA because when refuring to who's powers had been taken thanos infurred that eternity knew this being and was so scared of him that he never dared to ask anything and the LT called this power and eternity as well they called it the power supreme

Thanos had almitghy power, but it was shown there is even force higher than that, the one who manipulated Thanos, the one is probably the supreme being. And you can't get higher than that.
And it won't probably get any higher than that. There won't be ever again such power in Marvel shown as it was THOTU, and even THOTU said there is greater force. So that is the ultimate was had seen in Marvel.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
Because that is the only reason. And wait, no Phoenix feats equals that of THOTU. Completely humilating the enitre powerhouses, everyone, everyone, destroying and recreating universe with new rule with a blink of an eye, deleting mamory of everyone.
No Phoenix feats surpasses that. What, holding universe in pale of her hands, also Living Tribunal would be able to do that. Or with difficult defeating Galactus or M'Krann crystal (which maby isn't greater feat than LT easily dwaring the power of IG, while IG made Eternity insect), well LT could also do that, stoping M'Krann crystal. Or mentioned by Eternity that Phoenix is what it is (but it was no feat, only word from Eternity).
Now tell me Phoenix feat. No Phoenix feat can match the one of THOTU.
I believe Phoenix is more powerful than LT, but insect to THOTU.

Read the Spectre against the Marvel Universe thread (should be on one of the first few pages of the forum) to see an in depth debate about LT vs the IG. He never dwarfed its power its debatable how he stands up to the IGs power. He even agreed with Adam that he didnt know how he would stand up against it. With that in mind noone can say hes beyond the IG. LTs greatest feat to date is causing a supernova with a an energy blast. Thats the reality all assumptions and speculation aside. Please dont give loads of reasons why you think hes beyond the IG because with that on panel scene in mind to do so would be pointless. Please skim through the aforementioned thread.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=385520&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=6

The IG only humbled Eternitys MBody, the embodiment of the universe WITHIN reality. Eternity himself said in Infinity Watch #1 that if he faced the IG in his totality as opposed to his M Body then the IG wouldnt be able to affect him in the slightest. Similarly Thanos only faced Eternitys MBody and after defeating him in battle he did admittedly absorb 616 and LT.

However Phoenix accidentally killed the ACTUAL 616 universe by amputating its future and then casually reconstructed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. Beyond the IG or the HOTU.

Thanos absorbed a universe which is created by Phoenix anyway. When she killed 616 one of the avatars said to her dont worry about it he wouldnt bother as if a universe isnt anything to the Phoenixes but out of love for her family and friends she recreated that universe telekinetically in the palm of her hand. Thanos absorbed and then emitted a universe thats not on the same level.

On top of that, the M'kraan crystal is a multiversal reset switch. Its power was called absolute, the heart of the universe. When its power threatened to wipe out all existence Phoenixes power held it in check and she bound it in an energy lattice. She held back the power that was about to wipe out all of existence as stated on panel. Thats beyond anything shown by HOTU or the IG. Phoenix has better feats.


Originally posted by Xplosive
The End showed there is higher force than THOTU.

It never showed anything XP. Thanos speculated that this power source came from the supreme being and that the whole thing was just a part of the supreme beings plan. That is all. That wasnt verified on panel by any other source in the series. It was just Thanos' speculation, he is known for it. He also speculated the same thing about the IG. That was found to be incorrect. Either way no connection between LTs master and the power was made.




Originally posted by Xplosive
Thanos had almitghy power, but it was shown there is even force higher than that, the one who manipulated Thanos, the one is probably the supreme being. And you can't get higher than that.
And it won't probably get any higher than that. There won't be ever again such power in Marvel shown as it was THOTU, and even THOTU said there is greater force. So that is the ultimate was had seen in Marvel.

Thanos speculated all of that. You need to understand that. The nature and origin of the power was never conclusively revealed. Thanos just gave us an insight into where he thought the power came from and why he managed to get hold of it. None of it was confirmed by any other source within the series.

HOTU never provided us with the highest feats we've seen in Marvel.

Thanos' speculation must not be taken as canon fact. Remember he speculated about the IG being the supreme beings power as well.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The IG only humbled Eternitys MBody, the embodiment of the universe WITHIN reality. Eternity himself said in Infinity Watch #1 that if he faced the IG in his totality as opposed to his M Body then the IG wouldnt be able to affect him in the slightest. Similarly Thanos only faced Eternitys MBody and after defeating him in battle he did admittedly absorb 616 and LT.

Hahahhahahahahahahahah, do you have in mind Eternity could stand against THOTU. LT was easily destroyed, forget about MBody. LT wasn't affected agatnst IG, he easily stoped IG to work, that is enough for me too tell he is beyond, having the power to stop IG working. Maybe you have in mind Eternity could give battle to THOTU, hahhahaha.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However Phoenix accidentally killed the ACTUAL 616 universe by amputating its future and then casually reconstructed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom telekinetically. Phoenix dealt with the ACTUAL 616 universe, not its embodiment, its representation WITHIN reality. Thats a feat on another level. Beyond the IG or the HOTU.

Thanos absorbed a universe which is created by Phoenix anyway. When she killed 616 one of the avatars said to her dont worry about it he wouldnt bother as if a universe isnt anything to the Phoenixes but out of love for her family and friends she recreated that universe telekinetically in the palm of her hand. Thanos absorbed and then emitted a universe thats not on the same level.

On top of that, the M'kraan crystal is a multiversal reset switch. Its power was called absolute, the heart of the universe. When its power threatened to wipe out all existence Phoenixes power held it in check and she bound it in an energy lattice. She held back the power that was about to wipe out all of existence as stated on panel. Thats beyond anything shown by HOTU or the IG. Phoenix has better feats.


You do realize LT would be abl;e to easily stop M'KRann crystal.
And stopind M'Kran crystal isn't close to the feat humiliating evey major powerhouses in MU. When THOTU battle MU (if we can even say battle), it didn't matter is it THOTU vs ant or THOTU vs MU, literally.
No feat of Phoenix matches that.
I wonder why Phoenix wasn't there to oppose THOTU, did they forget Phoenix, or they just didn;t want to show Phoenix getting destroyed.
But I think writer just forgot it.

Mider
LT never stopped the IG he only put the cosmics back in there places and from his own mouth and expression he thought that he couldnt stop the IG if it came down to war no he had to talk Warlock into giving up the IG and thanos wasnt manipulated physically the being who's power he took who i think was TOAA tricked him Thanos said it was a cruel joke not that he was forced to take the power and you can try and prove that LT can easily stop the m kron crystal but i dont think you will do so perhaps he can but then again perhaps he cant his powers have only been shown to be above eternity while there are beings that dwarf the power of the IG and thus can defeat LT when Korvac gained the combined power of six cosmics he was more powerful then eternity in my mind since eternity did nothing to stop him from killing him but beside that LT admitted defeat to his power not being able to stop him instead he fled leaving the universe to die...............bad day at work for the so called gaurdian of the multiverse.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
Hahahhahahahahahahahah, do you have in mind Eternity could stand against THOTU. LT was easily destroyed, forget about MBody. LT wasn't affected agatnst IG, he easily stoped IG to work, that is enough for me too tell he is beyond, having the power to stop IG working. Maybe you have in mind Eternity could give battle to THOTU, hahhahaha.

So with insufficient resources to effectively counter what i said you've resorted to trying to mock my argument and then have just posted more opinion and assumption. You've gotta understand that that holds no weight here.

I previously gave you a link to a thread where an in-depth debate about Eternity, LT and the IG situation has been had. I see you have chosen not to bother to look at it. That is quite evident from your reply. It is stated on panel that Eternitys M body isnt his totality, its just a representation of himself within his totality which is the actual 616 universe. As stated in his totality the power of the IG would not be able to affect him. I never once said that in his totality he would be able to defeat HOTU, i just was making the point that defeating Eternitys M Body is something thats been accomplished by many a power other than HOTU.

LT never stopped the power of the IG XP, Adam shot a blast of power at the court and LT being the most powerful there (out of the abstracts) withstood the blast and negated its effects on the the other abstracts. The blast wasnt full power as the abstracts were at point blank range and caught it in the face. It was a display of anger from Adam. Later on in the court session LT agreed with Adam that he didnt know how his power would fare against the IGs. That statement means you absolutely cannot say that LT is beyond the IG because if he doesnt know himself who are you to answer for him? You are'nt a comic book writer, you dont work for Marvel, the statement is there, no more opinion please.




Originally posted by Xplosive
You do realize LT would be abl;e to easily stop M'KRann crystal.

Based on what? XP you've got to stop doing this. This is more speculation and its completely 100% unsupported in the comics. In face of on panel evidence stating otherwise opinion means nothing. It was stated on panel that only a Phoenixs power can work the M'kraan crystal. With that in mind the matters not debatable.


Originally posted by Xplosive
And stopind M'Kran crystal isn't close to the feat humiliating evey major powerhouses in MU.

Thats an absurd statement XP. Especially when you consider the amount of beings who have faced off against the MU and beat down the powers. These days thats nothing special, it just says youre beyond the abstracts who arent exactly the most powerful forces in Marvel like the old days. Picking a fight with the heroes of ONE reality and the cosmic powers of ONE reality is nothing compared to withstanding and then containing a power which wipes out ALL realities. That much is quite obvious.

Originally posted by Xplosive
When THOTU battle MU (if we can even say battle), it didn't matter is it THOTU vs ant or THOTU vs MU, literally.
No feat of Phoenix matches that.

Thanos with HOTU fought and defeated the powers of one reality. He then absorbed that reality. Both feats have been accomplished by a number of beings in Marvel such as Galactus' enemy in Thanos' last series and Phoenix consumes reality every creation cycle as part of the natural order anyway as stated on panel. Not Marvels top feat. Even Anti Monitor absorbed many realities and fought the heroes and powers of DC universe (giving him greater feats than Thanos with HOTU by your logic). After feeling guilty he emitted the reality he'd absorbed.

Thats a nice feat, but its not the top one featured in Marvel. Phoenix has withstood and held in check the power which wipes out the Marvel multiverse. Thats far more impressive than the strictly universal affairs Thanos was involved with.

On top of that Thanos may have fought the powers and absorbed the universe but Phoenix killed the universe just like that as a side effect of her Phoenix work. She didnt have to go in reality and over power the forces within. They were all bypassed and wiped out as she carried out her higher duties (i.e disinfecting that reality and amputating its potential for a future leaving it in a static state). Another avatar then said to her dont worry about its only a universe he'd just leave it dead!! Do you see how insignificant a mere universe is to the White Crown Phoenix, yet youre championing Thanos for dominating and absorbing one. One which the White Crown Phoenix out of an act of kindness recreated in the palm of her hand on a whim.

Anyone with an objective mind can see feats wise HOTU certainly isnt top, many beings have absorbed a universe, in fact theres beings who have absorbed many realities rendering Thanos' feat redundant anyway. Phoenix tops HOTU for feats. With that in mind you cant say HOTU is conclusively beyond Phoenix because for feats she has it beat.


Originally posted by Xplosive
I wonder why Phoenix wasn't there to oppose THOTU, did they forget Phoenix, or they just didn;t want to show Phoenix getting destroyed.
But I think writer just forgot it.

I can only assume it wasnt her jurisdiction or the writer just never thought to use her. But then you can turn it around and say where was LT during the M'kraan crystal incident? That threatened to blink out the multiverse which would effectively have left him unemployed. But noone seems to remember that. The fact of the matter is that it wasnt his jurisdiction because as stated only Phoenix can work the crystal, hence why she was there for a threat debatably greater than the others you've mentioned.

Both of them werent there to stop Wanda during House of M. Does that detract from their roles in Marvel? No. We really have no answer as to why that was the case. It works both ways.

Richrf
I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.



Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

DrDoom101
LT went up against Spectre in the Crossovers. Can Phoenix Force defeat Spectre?

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Richrf
I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.



Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

What on earth are u waffling about Richie? confused

I'll deal with this mess tomorrow.

Leon u need not apply roll eyes (sarcastic)

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True but my idea of Phoenix has considerably more on panel support.

yes but it is an IDEA, an idea that has been denied n proven wrong many times, the thing is, the whenever toaa has been hinted etc, it was not denied, n since there are only one or two such instances there is almost no ambiguity, nor contradictions by any other comic, TOAA is an idea, a good idea, but an idea nonetheless, UR version of the pheonix force however is flawed, manipulated n proven wrong, n almost never right. TOAA has neither been proven. NOR been disproven, but there is more reason to believe he is there as opposed to him not beeing there n for clarity's sake we do, there are no such arguments for ur pheonix.

Richrf
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What on earth are u waffling about Richie? confused

I'll deal with this mess tomorrow.

Leon u need not apply roll eyes (sarcastic)

Just trying to emulate your essay style, GS just with more objectivity. I state points both good and bad for PF.

I can't wait to be enlightened....

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Richrf
I think it's clear that the intent of The end is to show HOTU is superior to LT.

GS IIRC used to maintain that LT and PF are equal status but play different roles, and both are probably serving TOAA. In each of their areas , they are supreme. PF creates and ends universes, LT maintains then.

So when the time comes for PF to do it job, it will 'win'. It's PF role.

With HOTU, we actually see Thanos with HOTU absorbing LT and all the abstracts *against their will*. So HOTU>LT for sure.

Can PF do it? Possibly, as I understand it, that is the plan of the Stranger , to replace all the abstracts. There is some dispute whether LT is included in their number in this scenario, but let's assume he is included.

As I understand it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this never really happens though. It's part of the plan but it's not shown ever happening.

So on this point HOTU demostrates a real feat against a possible PF one. Granted a possible feat that seems likely to happen because The stranger thinks it will work.

The replacement of all the abstracts by humanity is one that is the natural part of cycle, it is stated that the abstracts will not fight against it.

In the Long run when PF destroys the universe, and evolved mutants replaces the abstracts it won't be a power struggle, just part of nature.

Thantos with HOTU usperhing that role seems to me to be a much bigger feat since it goes against natural order.

The replacement of the abstracts isnt just a plan of Strangers. According to X-men Forever (more specifically Eternity) its something which occurs every creation cycle. Its a process co-ordinated and executed by the Phoenix Force, hence Jean Grey being the key to Strangers plans. The Phoenix Force has long been given th role of creator and destroyer and X-men Forever not only supported this notion but built on it by saying that an evolved humanity replace the higher power every cycle. LT is included in that number as i have shown so that point at least is not debatable.

Youre confusing yourself however Richie. While this replacement is a part of nature, Strangers plans however were not. The Stranger sought to access the Force to bring about the end of the cycle billions of years ahead of schedule whilst using the power to protect himself during the turnover allowing him to become the supreme being. That is very much against the natural order (as stated by Eternity in my scans if you'd care to refer back) and is the reason Eternity intervened and appealed to Jean. With all that in mind your point about it not being a power struggle as opposed to a part of the natural order is somewhat moot. So somene who wields the Phoenix power as and when they please can not only initiate or end reality but also can reallocate the roles of the abstracts and LT.



Originally posted by Richrf
Does this feat show on panel the absorbing of LT? If not, it's impressive, but in comics it's fairly common to see universes being destroyed. That does not imply that LT is destroyed.

I think the impressive thing about HOTU's feat is not the ending of the universe (which let's face it isn't that rare in comics!) , but we have a straight forward depiction of LT being owned completely.

There are whatifs, and other situations where we see the will of LT being blocked, but AFAIK Thantos with HOTU is the only one where we actually see LT being totally absorbed on screen. That is impressive!

According to Eternity LT is very much affected by the process. He along with the other abstracts are not only depicted by Eternity as being at the mercy of the power should Strangers plans ever come to fruition, but their roles are usurped and re-allocated.

How impressive defeating LT is , is something that is very much in debate on these forums. LTs biggest on panel feat is to cause a star to go supernova, something he stated to be his "ultimate punishment". In support of that showing LT agreed with Adam Warlock (in Infinity Watch 1) that he didnt know how his power would stand up to just the IG which itself is just a conduit for universal forces. Korvac withstood LTs power with merely the amassed power of 6 below abstract level cosmics.

Originally posted by Richrf
Sure some speculation might sugguest that evolved humans might replace LT (I'm not sure about this point, LT seems to be a different class from Eternity and other abstracts, but let me concede the point here) , but we never see it happen, so it still remains speculation.

It would remain speculation if it wasnt stated it was going to happen. You are incorrect my friend. In a variety of scenes from the mini LT and the abstracts are depicted on panel as the beings affected by the process. On top of that all of the gathered beings are listed in the back of the comic, something ive also produced a scan of. LTs name is listed. It is not speculation im afraid.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but it is an IDEA, an idea that has been denied n proven wrong many times, the thing is, the whenever toaa has been hinted etc, it was not denied, n since there are only one or two such instances there is almost no ambiguity, nor contradictions by any other comic, TOAA is an idea, a good idea, but an idea nonetheless, UR version of the pheonix force however is flawed, manipulated n proven wrong, n almost never right. TOAA has neither been proven. NOR been disproven, but there is more reason to believe he is there as opposed to him not beeing there n for clarity's sake we do, there are no such arguments for ur pheonix.

Rubbish Leon!! My ideas have been disproven? By whom might i ask? Certainly not yourself, that task im afraid is a tad too ambitious for you my friend.

You've disagreed with my ideas and given me your opinion why theyre wrong. You've never backed up your statements whilst now i have an official bio along with the multitude of scans ive produced over the months. Opinion in the face of that is inconsequential. Sorry mate. sad

TOAA is LTs master. Its a being stated to be beyond the IG. Thats all we know of it. Its ludicrous to assume its the supreme being based on just that. Such an idea is unsupported and as such certainly cant be treated as canon in debates.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rubbish Leon!! My ideas have been disproven? By whom might i ask? Certainly not yourself, that task im afraid is a tad too ambitious for you my friend.

You've disagreed with my ideas and given me your opinion why theyre wrong. You've never backed up your statements whilst now i have an official bio along with the multitude of scans ive produced over the months. Opinion in the face of that is inconsequential. Sorry mate. sad

TOAA is LTs master. Its a being stated to be beyond the IG. Thats all we know of it. Its ludicrous to assume its the supreme being based on just that. Such an idea is unsupported and as such certainly cant be treated as canon in debates.


on other words your trying to say that currently pheonix force is the only thing that deserves or can be REASONABLY put on the pedestal of thes supreme being as u think that no1 in marvel has shown to be more power than it.{THIS is exctly why i hate debating with you, your more stubborn than gandhi, n twisting facts and manipulating oppinion is your quakity}

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
on other words your trying to say that currently pheonix force is the only thing that deserves or can be REASONABLY put on the pedestal of thes supreme being as u think that no1 in marvel has shown to be more power than it.{THIS is exctly why i hate debating with you, your more stubborn than gandhi, n twisting facts and manipulating oppinion is your quakity}

Thats not what ive been saying at all. Not once in this thread have i tried to present Phoenix as the the supreme being of Marvel. Thats just a misinterpretation on your part and is therefore your problem. I have merely shown why Phoenix is beyond LT whilst also dismissing the notion that TOAA, LTs boss is the supreme being. Why? Because its not stated or supported anywhere. wink

leonheartmm
lmao, exactly WHAT does that scan show or prove?! i see absolutely NUTHING that tells of lucifer's rebellion being the presence's plan or of the presence having power over lucifer{creation as seen does not guaruntee power OVER} it only tells of sameal's rebellion as a way of letting lucifer reflect on his actions, and in the end even the voice ADMITS that it foresaw everythin in sameal's rebellion untill THEN, which mean that the presence is NOT infalliable{n if i hadnt addressed this riduculous scan of urs due to bein tired of tryin to cinvince, u wudv easily manipulated it to PROVE to people that it inded does prove that the presence owns lucifer and everythin he does or creates}

Xplosive
Originally posted by leonheartmm
your more stubborn than gandhi

True

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
lmao, exactly WHAT does that scan show or prove?! i see absolutely NUTHING that tells of lucifer's rebellion being the presence's plan or of the presence having power over lucifer{creation as seen does not guaruntee power OVER} it only tells of sameal's rebellion as a way of letting lucifer reflect on his actions, and in the end even the voice ADMITS that it foresaw everythin in sameal's rebellion untill THEN, which mean that the presence is NOT infalliable{n if i hadnt addressed this riduculous scan of urs due to bein tired of tryin to cinvince, u wudv easily manipulated it to PROVE to people that it inded does prove that the presence owns lucifer and everythin he does or creates}

Wrong thread mate. If you wanna debate with me get it together. roll eyes (sarcastic)

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
True

But not wrong though. wink

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But not wrong though. wink

Yes, but in the end also that of yours cannot be taken seriously, because it's not canon. So for now, it is like it doesn't exist. You might be right, but for now it doesn't matter at all and shouldn't be debated.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not what ive been saying at all. Not once in this thread have i tried to present Phoenix as the the supreme being of Marvel. Thats just a misinterpretation on your part and is therefore your problem. I have merely shown why Phoenix is beyond LT whilst also dismissing the notion that TOAA, LTs boss is the supreme being. Why? Because its not stated or supported anywhere. wink


STOP the bullshit gs, everyone knows u just want pheonix to be the supreme being. heres a SIMPLE question that a thick head like u can also understand,

WHO by your standards is currently the MOST powerful cannon being in marvel?

give me a simple answer to that otherwise itll become obvious that u r trying to manipulate things again, just a plane one word or phrase answer stating a name.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes, but in the edn also that of yours cannot be taen seriously, because it's not canon. So for now, it is like it doesn't exist. You might be right, but for no it doesn't matter at all and shouldn't be deabeted.

What aspect of my ideas are you referring to? You need to be more specific because at the moment i dont have a clue of what youre talking about. There is no aspect of my ideas which arent supported otherwise i wouldnt have and post them. There are however aspects of my ideas that are suggested but not actually outright stated. That would be the Phoenix/God connection, however as we're not talking about that now and also havent been at all in this thread, why would you feel the need to bring that up all of a sudden? How very random lol.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
STOP the bullshit gs, everyone knows u just want pheonix to be the supreme being. heres a SIMPLE question that a thick head like u can also understand,

WHO by your standards is currently the MOST powerful cannon being in marvel?

give me a simple answer to that otherwise itll become obvious that u r trying to manipulate things again, just a plane one word or phrase answer stating a name.

Dont talk to me with that tone and expect me to comply son. wink

You made an assumption, an incorrect and quite foolish assumption and you need to accept that. You made the misinterpretation. Your fault not mine.

Most powerful canon being shown in Marvel imo is the White Crown Phoenix.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That would be the Phoenix/God connection,.

I thought about that. Anyway you are saying TOAA cannot be said as supreme being, true, but in no way you also cannot say TOAA is not the supreme being. You don't have clue, as I don't have. So when you say TOAA is not the supreme, yu are wrong, when I say TOAA is the supreme, I am wrong. We should leva TOAA out of it, bcause you don't know anything about it as I don't.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
I thought about that. Anyway you are saying TOAA cannot be said as supreme being, true, but in no way you also cannot say TOAA is not the supreme being. You don't have clue, as I don't have. So when you say TOAA is not the supreme, yu are wrong, when I say TOAA is the supreme, I am wrong. We should leva TOAA out of it, bcause you don't know anything about it as I don't.

That form of argument doesnt work in debates XP. In debates if you make claims you have to first and foremost prove they are the case. There are no statements on panel saying that TOAA is the supreme being so for me to say that in terms of canon TOAA isnt the supreme being i would be very much correct. For it to be canon it would require a direct statement. In light of that for you to treat TOAA as canon supreme being like you have been doing then you are very much wrong.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That form of argument doesnt work in debates XP. In debates if you make claims you have to first and foremost prove they are the case. There are no statements on panel saying that TOAA is the supreme being so for me to say that in terms of canon TOAA isnt the supreme being i would be very much correct. For it to be canon it would require a direct statement. In light of that for you to treat TOAA as canon supreme being like you have been doing then you are very much wrong.

No, because it also doesn't say TOAA isn't the supreme being, so you are not correct. You are really stuborn, you don't have a clue about TOAA, so we should leave TOAA out if it. You are not correct, believe me. This TOAA is not like Celestial TOAA. It's not anywhere saying he isn't the he supreme being (which we could say hence his name), but because it doesn't say, we cannot say he is the supreme being. So you are also not correct. You are extremly wrong.
I will tell you something. When you were in ideas of Phoenix Force being part of TOAA, you were saying TOAA is the supreme, because that also made your beloved Phoenix something like supreme. When KMC members finally somehow show you that you are not correct about ideas, because they are only ideas, you stop using them. Since than you changed your mind about TOAA being supreme. You know why, I will tell you!
Now you know Pheonix Force is not part of TOAA, due to that (and your previous thinking, when you thought TOAA being supreme), you, we all know something is beyond your beloved Phoenix, like TOAA, something that is unacceptable for you. And now you are making something to not give TOAA to be supreme (unlike before), only because, that something isn't beyond your beloved Phoenix. Only to convince yourself, Pheonix is the supreme, well, it's not. Before it wasn't the problem, it's part of the Almighty (why before you weren't saying things about TOAA like you are saying now).
You just cannot think somenthing might actully be beyond Phoenix, that is your problem. For you it's unacceptable somehing to be beyond Phoenix.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
No, because it also doesn't say TOAA isn't the supreme beign, so you are not correct. You are really stuborn, you don't have a clue about TOAA, so we should leave TOAA out if it. You are not correct, believe me. This TOAA is not like Celestial TOAA. It's no where saying he isn't the he surpeme beign (which we could say hence his name), but because it doesn't say, we cannot say he is the supreme being. So you are also not correct. You are extremly wrong.
I will tell you something. When you were in ideas of Phoenix Force being part of TOAA, you were saying TOAA is the supreme, because that also made your beloved Phoenix something like supreme. When KMC members finally somehow show you that you are not correct about ideas, because they are only ideas, you stop using them.
Now you know Pheonix Force is not part of TOAA, due to that, you, we all know something is beyond your beloved Phoenix, like TOAA. And now you are making something to not give TOAA to be supreme (unlike before), only because, that something isn't beyond your beloved Phoenix. Only to convince yourself, Pheonix is the supreme, well, it's not. Before it wasn't the problem, it's part of the Almighty (why before you weren't saying things about TOAA like you are saying now).
You just cannot think somenthing might actully be beyond Phoenix, that is your problem. For you it's unacceptable somehing to be beyond Phoenix.

No. What this is is that you like being right and so you have brought up a random point not just in this thread but others as well which you think you can get me to concede on just as a matter of pride. That much is quite obvious and i find this behaviour incredibly childish XP.

By canon TOAA is NOT the supreme being. Its not stated anywhere that he is so any idea that states otherwise is NOT canon and thats a fact.

Im saying that TOAA by canon isnt the supreme being and i am right because all thats been revealed is that its LTs master and its beyond the IG. Well guess what? So is the Phoenix Force and HOTU. Are they supreme beings as well? Nope, not by canon.

You are trying to say that because nothing has been stated then you can say he is the supreme being and not be wrong. However as nothings been stated its not canon. Therefore talking in terms of canon you are very much as aforementioned incorrect. wink

GalacticStorm
XP this is so stupid laughing out loud

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. What this is is that you like being right and so you have brought up a random point not just in this thread but others as well which you think you can get me to concede on just as a matter of pride. That much is quite obvious and i find this behaviour incredibly childish XP.

By canon TOAA is NOT the supreme being. Its not stated anywhere that he is so any idea that states otherwise is NOT canon and thats a fact.

Im saying that TOAA by canon isnt the supreme being and i am right because all thats been revealed is that its LTs master and its beyond the IG. Well guess what? So is the Phoenix Force and HOTU. Are they supreme beings as well? Nope, not by canon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You are trying to say that because nothing has been stated then you can say he is the supreme being and not be wrong. However as nothings been stated its not canon.

You will be talking about childish, when you always bring up that I am using TOAA as supreme being like a canon.

Originally posted by Xplosive
but because it doesn't say, we cannot say he is the supreme being. Therefore talking in terms of canon you are very much as aforementioned incorrect.

So, does that sound I am using it as a canon wink. I who say that we can't say TOAA being as supreme (because it doesn't say it anywhere), it doens't sound like it, but you still bring it up, althtough you know I said that before.

You are repeating yourself, you are childish, to prove me wrong, while you know I said before we cannot say TOAA being as supreme, because it isn't stated anywhere.

Xplosive
We have to leave TOAA out of debates.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
You will be talking about childish, when you always bring up that I am using TOAA as supreme being like a canon.



So, does that sound I am using it as a canon wink. I who say that we can't say TOAA being as supreme (because it doesn't say it anywhere), it doens't sound like it, but you still bring it up, althtough you know I said that before.

You are repeating yourself, you are childish, to prove me wrong, while you know I said before we cannot say TOAA being as supreme, because it isn't stated anywhere.

Youre gonna have to re-type that in something other than broken English because i dont have a clue what youre talking about.

From what i did manage to decipher, i could be wrong but are you trying to pass off one of my statements as something you've said in an effort to avoid being wrong? wink

Either way if you want to say that TOAA is Marvels supreme being then thats fine but the moment you mention that idea in threads and try to treat it as canon then you are very very wrong.

So as aforementioned when talking in terms of canon the idea of TOAA being supreme being is conclusively wrong until it is stated somewhere on panel. wink

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way if you want to say that TOAA is Marvels supreme being then thats fine but the moment you mention that idea in threads and try to treat it as canon then you are very very wrong.

You see, you are repeating yourself, like many times I said, I can't say TOAA being supreme, because it's not stated anywhere and not using as canon, you again repeat yourself, ''if you try to use as a canon'', where did I say that. I only said that I can't say TOAA being supreme, because it's not stated anywhere (and to leave TOAA out of debates, because we don't know almost nothing about it to judge about TOAA). And than you come again, saying I treat it as canon, come on, GS.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
If TOAA is boss of LT, it's also boss of Phoenix Force. If someone created Phoenix Force, which it was, it was created by TOAA. He is not called THE ONE ABOVE ALL for nothing cause he is ABOVE ALL, competley ABOVE EVERYTHING.
Seeing what Eternity has been talking about, Eternity thinks actully that Phoenix is beyond any abstracts, including LT.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He was manipulated by God Almighty or TOAA

Well going by your past comments in this very thread you were indeed treating it as canon regardless of whether you intended to or not. Therefore just to reiterate in terms of canon it is NOT the supreme being as ive said throughout this thread.

If you wish to believe that idea then thats cool because i cant prove it wrong just like you cant prove it right, however as i said in the beginning the idea can never be used in debates as you were doing as its not canon. Hopefully everythings cool now? smile

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont talk to me with that tone and expect me to comply son. wink

You made an assumption, an incorrect and quite foolish assumption and you need to accept that. You made the misinterpretation. Your fault not mine.

Most powerful canon being shown in Marvel imo is the White Crown Phoenix.


disreguard your whole essay n concentrate on the last line


"Most powerful canon being shown in Marvel imo is the White Crown Phoenix."


there it is isnt it, after all the twisting n turning, u finally say that pheonix is indeed the most powerful being in marvel, ur arguing just for pheonix to be the most powerful, n even though u dont say it straight out due to fear of ridicule, that really is wat ur after. tryin to prove that pheonix is the most powerful in marvel.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
disreguard your whole essay n concentrate on the last line


"Most powerful canon being shown in Marvel imo is the White Crown Phoenix."


there it is isnt it, after all the twisting n turning, u finally say that pheonix is indeed the most powerful being in marvel, ur arguing just for pheonix to be the most powerful, n even though u dont say it straight out due to fear of ridicule, that really is wat ur after. tryin to prove that pheonix is the most powerful in marvel.

Silly silly Leon. You previously said that i was trying to make out that Phoenix was the supreme being which isnt true. Ive merely discredited the notion that TOAA is the supreme being of Marvel as its not in terms of canon. Now you've just asked me who i think the most powerful being in Marvel is and ive told you the White Crown Phoenix is. I stated canon being for a reason so you have failed to make a point Leon. My answers perfectly understandable and acceptable. big grin

R.O.T. Yahman
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Silly silly Leon. You previously said that i was trying to make out that Phoenix was the supreme being which isnt true. Ive merely discredited the notion that TOAA is the supreme being of Marvel as its not in terms of canon. Now you've just asked me who i think the most powerful being in Marvel is and ive told you the White Crown Phoenix is. I stated canon being for a reason so you have failed to make a point Leon. My answers perfectly understandable and acceptable. big grin

Which is the comic that stranger tries to rob the phoenix force ? Its not endsong is it !!!!!!!!! I was very disapointed when i picked my ordered version of endsong and it wasn't in there !!!!!!!!!! mad

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Which is the comic that stranger tries to rob the phoenix force ? Its not endsong is it !!!!!!!!! I was very disapointed when i picked my ordered version of endsong and it wasn't in there !!!!!!!!!! mad

Its X-men Forever. You should have asked me mate!! wink Have you read New X-men? You like Grant Morrison it seems so you should really check that out before Endsong.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well going by your past comments in this very thread you were indeed treating it as canon regardless of whether you intended to or not. Therefore just to reiterate in terms of canon it is NOT the supreme being as ive said throughout this thread.

And what did I say on PM?
You are talkin about past, do you want me to go quote your past comments, so don't go with past comments. Forget that. It's past.
As you know I said many times I can't say TOAA is the supreme, because it wasn't stated anywhere.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you wish to believe that idea then thats cool because i cant prove it wrong just like you cant prove it right)

That is what I am telling you all the time, why should we leave TOAA out
of debates. We can't prove anything.

You say White Crown Pheonix is greatest power in Marvel, but I choose THOTU over the White Crown Phoenix.
So, I have my opinion, you yours, it's just that.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
And what did I say on PM?
You are talkin about past, do you want me to go quote your past comments, so don't go with past comments. Forget that. It's past.
As you know I said many times I can't say TOAA is the supreme, because it wasn't stated anywhere.



That is what I am telling you all the time, why should we leave TOAA out
of debates. We can't prove anything.

XP youre taking an aggressive tone over a comic book debate. Theres no need chill out. If you're now conceding that TOAA cant be treated as the supreme being then everythings cool. Theres no need to carry this line of discussion on any further.

I agree. Theres no point bringing TOAA into debates as nothings known about it.

Mordum
Checkmate Happy Dance

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
XP youre taking an aggressive tone over a comic book debate. Theres no need, chill out. If you're now conceding that TOAA cant be treated as the supreme being then everythings cool. Theres no need to carry this line of discussion on any further.

I agree. Theres no point bringing TOAA into debates as nothings known about it.

I didn't mean to be agressive.
Believe me, I didn't have anything in mind to show any kind of agressivnes. Maybe it just sounded like that reading it.

id369

Ex11B
Once again..LT wins.....only TOAA/Presence is above him

id369
Originally posted by Ex11B
Once again..LT wins.....only TOAA/Presence is above him

Based on what? no scans or feats to prove otherwise.

Mordum
Living Tribunal Appears on the album cover of a pink floyd album. Pink Floyd is god in some peoples eyes. big grin

Mider
LT has already been proven to be weaker then the PF get over it people.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Ex11B
Once again..LT wins.....only TOAA/Presence is above him

No. It seems the gathered power of 6 below abstract level cosmics is enough to stop him, he agreed that he didnt know how his power would stand against the power of the IG, plus he got owned by HOTU which had nothing to do with TOAA so your statement is very very wrong and completely unsupported on panel.

TOAA being god isnt canon. It is stated and shown on panel that one who wields the Phoenix Force can humble LT. LTs greatest feat is making a supernova, an action he refers to as his ultimate punishment, an action which is also referred to in his bio. People have long been confusing role with power.

GalacticStorm

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. It seems the gathered power of 6 below abstract level cosmics is enough to stop him.

I don't think 6 abstracts could stop LT at all. I see only Phoenix stoping LT and no one else, except HOTU, of course. Every other pretty much fear LT, including all abstracts.
I imagine fight between LT and IG would go by devasttign force that would destroy all other abstract, beings, everything, except Phoenix, but I see LT taking IG in the end. That was the only reason LT didn't go in battle with IG, even if he would be the winner, the consuqences would be devastating. And LT had the power to cancel IG, while IG didn't have to cancel LT, so LT should be anyway beyond IG. Having the power to cancel affect of IG, so that battle wouldn't even start, I think that pretty much gives you above.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't think 6 abstracts could stop LT at all. I see only Phoenix stoping LT and no one else, except HOTU. Every other pretty much fear LT, including all abstracts.

If you wish to believe that then fine but the fact that Korvac with the power of 6 BELOW abstract level cosmics withstood LTs "ultimate punishment" causing him to flee after first claiming he had nothing left in his arsenal to defeat Korvac then that says it all. On panel evidence overrides unsupported opinion. On top of that LT agreed he didnt know if he had the power to stop the IG, he has no great feats of power beyond his "ultimate punishment". So altogether it paints a picture of a far from virtually omnipotent being.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't think 6 abstracts could stop LT at all. I see only Phoenix stoping LT and no one else, except HOTU, of course. Every other pretty much fear LT, including all abstracts.
I imagine fight between LT and IG would go by devasttign force that would destroy all other abstract, beings, everything, except Phoenix, but I see LT taking IG in the end. That was the only reason LT didn't go in battle with IG, even if he would be the winner, the consuqences would be devastating. And LT had the power to cancel IG, while IG didn't have to cancel LT, so LT should be anyway beyond IG. Having the power to cancel affect of IG, so that battle wouldn't even start, I think that pretty much gives you above.

All opinion and none of it supported. Theres no need to have this debate because its all been had in the recent Spectre vs Marvel universe thread you'll find on the first few pages of this forum.

Adams attack wasnt full power, it was a display of anger at the perceived audacity of the abstracts. LT cancelled out the blast, something Dr Strange has done in battle with Adam with the IG. Either way LT went on to agree after that, that he didnt know how his power would stand up to the IG. Thats the end of the matter. He doesnt know , therefore unless youre a Marvel official noone can speak for him and say otherwise. Until stated or shown somewhere by canon LT is not beyond the IG. Dont mistake role with power.

leonheartmm
hmmm, i wonder how many people are supporting gs now.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
hmmm, i wonder how many people are supporting gs now.

Awww you still hurting from the other day? sad

Well sorry to compound that but if you actually read whats going on here properly XP agrees that Phoenix is beyond LT, the majority of posters on this thread do. The point we're debating over has nothing whatsoever to do with Phoenix.

Yet another foolish ill thought out post. Youre in way over your head boy. Stick to spiderman and the like. smile

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Awww you still hurting from the other day? sad

Well sorry to compound that but if you actually read whats going on here properly XP agrees that Phoenix is beyond LT, the majority of posters on this thread do. The point we're debating over has nothing whatsoever to do with Phoenix.

Yet another foolish ill thought out post. Youre in way over your head boy. Stick to spiderman and the like. smile


watch your mouth fanboy, ur way too ful of urself{n the pheonix's prick} to realize that apart from the idiotic following u have inspired due to manipulative posts and making kmc n pheonix ur entire life, NO 1 GIVES A DAMN. u think ur disgusting sarcasm, rubbish sense of humour n goin afte people personally while coverin it all up with smileys to make ur post looks smart actually does sumthin to any1, NO CUD CARE LESS, thas the reason most real people stopped debatin with u a long time ago, its only the newbies who come in every now n then n cant see beyond ur twisted, wrong manipulated logic. really gs, im sure u keep up this high n mighty act all the time to make up for everythin u dont have in real life{well seein as u dont HAVE a life}

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
watch your mouth fanboy, ur way too ful of urself{n the pheonix's prick} to realize that apart from the idiotic following u have inspired due to manipulative posts and making kmc n pheonix ur entire life, NO 1 GIVES A DAMN. u think ur disgusting sarcasm, rubbish sense of humour n goin afte people personally while coverin it all up with smileys to make ur post looks smart actually does sumthin to any1, NO CUD CARE LESS, thas the reason most real people stopped debatin with u a long time ago, its only the newbies who come in every now n then n cant see beyond ur twisted, wrong manipulated logic. really gs, im sure u keep up this high n mighty act all the time to make up for everythin u dont have in real life{well seein as u dont HAVE a life}

For someone so quick to throw accussations about a lack of social life, and a pathetic penchant for personal vendettas, i find it ever so odd that one of your first posts of the day was to seek me out on this Phoenix thread and not contribute, but instead send humourless tripe my way. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Youre a hypocrite Leon, you take yourself way too seriously. When the quality of your posts is taken into consideration thats the reason youre the laughing stock of these forums. Your posts are garbage. embarrasment

I was so amused when your recent GS hate thread got reversed and people aired their views on you and your sum contribution to these forums. It was kinda unanimous, YOURE A BIG JOKE!!!! laughing out loud

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
For someone so quick to throw accussations about a lack of social life, and a pathetic penchant for personal vendettas, i find it ever so odd that one of your first posts of the day was to seek me out on this Phoenix thread and not contribute, but instead send humourless tripe my way. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Youre a hypocrite Leon, you take yourself way too seriously. When the quality of your posts is taken into consideration thats the reason youre the laughing stock of these forums. Your posts are garbage. embarrasment

I was so amused when your recent GS hate thread got reversed and people aired their views on you and your sum contribution to these forums. It was kinda unanimous, YOURE A BIG JOKE!!!! laughing out loud


am i now, n thas probably the reason why there are soooooo many people backing up ur views on ME now, yea sure is a large crowd of laughing posters, the only thing u dont realize is that ur the only one laughing, and as the say, the ones who laugh last laugh the longest, but the ones who laugh while no1 else is, keep on laughing eternally, n thas just wat uve been doing.

Mider
why do you fight over such things seesh and why do you all care so much if the lt is insulted he dont have his own series he couldnt care less what happend to the universe most of the time such as when the infinites attacked he didnt do nothing when Thanos had the Gauntlet he practiaclly told lord chaos and master order when korvac had finally lost it and was about to use the ultimate nullifier on the entire universe LT basically told them well if you can run youd better but other then that tough luck guys im gonna leave you here. more then that LT has been defied by the sorcerer supreme wow what a powerful entitie the LT is heh why dont you go look at what happend when the spectre took on every single magic entity in the DCU and lets see if he was defied for more then a little bit before he smacked those guys up as in 700 mages at once and then even higher magical beings such as the lords of order and chaos who are all basically sky father level maybe even higher he destroyed the fountain of magic for the entire DCU am i a spectre fan boy nope because when people say he could defeat lucifer morningstar i say thats a load of bull spectre may be the wrath of the preseance but i doubt he could create half a multiverse like lucifer morningstar did.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
am i now, n thas probably the reason why there are soooooo many people backing up ur views on ME now, yea sure is a large crowd of laughing posters, the only thing u dont realize is that ur the only one laughing, and as the say, the ones who laugh last laugh the longest, but the ones who laugh while no1 else is, keep on laughing eternally, n thas just wat uve been doing.

More tripe from the forum jester laughing out loud

I think i'll add your hate thread to my favourites:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t388743.html

Yes people youre seeing right. Leon criticising the logic of others. In fact a number of people commented on that in the thread. big grin

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
More tripe from the forum jester laughing out loud

I think i'll add your hate thread to my favourites:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t388743.html

Yes people youre seeing right. Leon criticising the logic of others. In fact a number of people commented on that in the thread. big grin


a number of people gs? it was only 2.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
More tripe from the forum jester laughing out loud

I think i'll add your hate thread to my favourites:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t388743.html

Yes people youre seeing right. Leon criticising the logic of others. In fact a number of people commented on that in the thread. big grin


there r those smileys again. wonder where an expressionless dumass like u wud be without em.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
a number of people gs? it was only 2.

Regardless, everyone who posted thought your thread and accussations were laughable. It was a flop attempt, you have no support. sad

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
there r those smileys again. wonder where an expressionless dumass like u wud be without em.

There is no forum etiquette regarding smilies. As such i will use them as and when i please boy. smile

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There is no forum etiquette regarding smilies. As such i will use them as and when i please boy. smile


just going to prove that u R an expressionless dumass in real life n even admit it.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
just going to prove that u R an expressionless dumass in real life n even admit it.

With logic like that surely you cant fail to understand not only why your logic thread was hilarious, but also why your posts are so regularly and completely torn apart. smile

Youre a child, you think too much of your ability, (well at least way more than it deserves) and so tend to get aggressive and irrational when your points are cut down.

Stick to threads where linear arguments and elementary level logic are the order of the day. cool

leonheartmm
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With logic like that surely you cant fail to understand not only why your logic thread was hilarious, but also why your posts are so regularly and completely torn apart. smile

Youre a child, you think too much of your ability, (well at least way more than it deserves) and so tend to get aggressive and irrational when your points are cut down.

Stick to threads where linear arguments and elementary level logic are the order of the day. cool


those smileys never stop coming do they, try goin a day without em, n ridicule, n see how quickly ur dum popularity falls, not to mention ur recycling arguments.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by leonheartmm
those smileys never stop coming do they, try goin a day without em, n ridicule, n see how quickly ur dum popularity falls, not to mention ur recycling arguments.

So my level of popularity on the forums correlates with my use of smilies? confused

Yet more godawful logic from the KMC jester. Keep it up son. laughing out loud

If i re-use arguments its because they havent been discredited in the first place therefore im at leisure to. big grin

Mider
ummmm how was your day galactic storm and leonheartmm i got a email from a comic vendor saying they got my payment for a whole lot of new comics nothing you guys might read its not really super hero stuff its like the future taken over by demons and some guy selling his soul so he can avange his dead girl friend with giant claws that make wolverine's look like butterknives way to gory for normal readers and way to adult not saying that your not adult bleh im really not just saying its kinda ............gooey and............stuff.........cut off heads and the like bleh thats why i said it might be do adult big grin heh just trying to keep the peace people serioulsy smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Mider
ummmm how was your day galactic storm and leonheartmm i got a email from a comic vendor saying they got my payment for a whole lot of new comics nothing you guys might read its not really super hero stuff its like the future taken over by demons and some guy selling his soul so he can avange his dead girl friend with giant claws that make wolverine's look like butterknives way to gory for normal readers and way to adult not saying that your not adult bleh im really not just saying its kinda ............gooey and............stuff.........cut off heads and the like bleh thats why i said it might be do adult big grin heh just trying to keep the peace people serioulsy smile

Sounds interesting at least. Whats the series called?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Mider
ummmm how was your day galactic storm and leonheartmm i got a email from a comic vendor saying they got my payment for a whole lot of new comics nothing you guys might read its not really super hero stuff its like the future taken over by demons and some guy selling his soul so he can avange his dead girl friend with giant claws that make wolverine's look like butterknives way to gory for normal readers and way to adult not saying that your not adult bleh im really not just saying its kinda ............gooey and............stuff.........cut off heads and the like bleh thats why i said it might be do adult big grin heh just trying to keep the peace people serioulsy smile


sigh, i read mangas about HOUSIWIVES, depressed sex craved teenagers, gory psychotic murderers and perfect lil highschool lover{n this doesnt get out embarrasment } im into the non superhero stuff, infact im not really too into normal comics anymore, vertigo n stuff, maybe, but marvel is pretty borin nowadays, only sum genis/cable deadpool and x men r nice.

Mider
oh i was talking about stuff like Faust and EO and insane clown posse and broken halo and dark utopia that dark utopia 2 cost a lot like 75 bucks cause its so rare SSSHHHH dont tell anyone. the artist is insane i think dont know what comic he did that he took like seven days to hand draw every page i think it was gothic nights but yeah he's that nuts to take 7 days just to hand draw a single comic page

Richrf
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The replacement of the abstracts isnt just a plan of Strangers. According to X-men Forever (more specifically Eternity) its something which occurs every creation cycle.


No dispute here. You are just repeating what was said.




We do agree here. When it's part of nature order, the abstracts will not resist. If it is unnatural they will resist. The dispute is whether it will be harder if they resist. With Thanos+HOTU, they definitely resisted.

If the stranger's plan worked, I would say we have an equalavant feat by PF. But it never happened. So we don't know.

We do have some evidence *based on what Eternity* says that PF could achieve a lesser feat (when the abstracts don't resist) when it was part of nature....




I'm open to the idea that LT being affected. However, Eternity is not an infalliable info source. So we should be wary of taking that as gospel.

You have argued that what Thanos says when he holds the HOTU should not be taken as gospel, surely eternity who is magnitudes less powerful, should come under the same rule?



LT's biggest feat? GS i respect your knowledge, but a lots of times your bias shows so clearly it's not funny.

Hmm even a supporter of PF or in this case someone who wants to diminish LT to make PF look better, should be more objective than that. By any measure, You actually selected one of LT's lowest performance.

Any of LT's performance against IG, even interpreted in the worse light by you, surpasses making the sun go supernove.

If we are talking low performances, there are many PF ones too I believe.



The Korvac supernove issue is actually a low end performance, since we are talking about biggest feats here (and Whatifs generally don't count anyway), let's disregard that.

As for IG versus LT..

I actually read that issue, it is written from the POV of Adam Warlock, and as strange as it seems, for an omniscient being- Adam himself from page to page waffles about whether LT could best him or not. At some points he thinks not, at some points he thinks so. Most of the time he isn't sure.

However, the fact that there is some doubt to the issue, tells us that LT is indeed powerful, since there is no doubt at all that IG holders can ignore everything else even if combined.

I would also like to draw a distinction between thwarting the will of LT and attacking and absorbing LT which means completely defeating LT.

The former occurs occasionally for PIS reasons, the latter is never considered even by The most powerful (Adam Warlock, kovac for example)...

Why is that?

Also it's interesting that Adam with IG never considers directly attacking LT, though he has no qualms of blasting Eternity. Why is that?

It seems that at best there is doubt over whether LT can make IG holders give up the IG, I would say on the balance that LT holds the edge, but anyway this is I think different from the issue on whether IG holders can absorb LT, I think this is why the general concensus is that HOTU feat is meant to be more powerful then IG's feat.

IG - There is doubt that you can defy a LT ruling

HOTU - Forget rulings, I can own LT.

My guess is that, at the universial level, the IG might truly be nearly omnipotent, so even for beings like LT-TOAA- even your beloved PF, you can be as powerful as that, but no better. So when LT faces IG, it's possibly a stalemate

I think though there is no way the holder of IG could absorb LT though. That goes beyond the IG.

The PF might match up the HOTU, if we believe Eternity but with HOTU we have no doubt at all that it can absorb LT. With PF it's a possibility.

It's a pity The Stranger's plan didn't happen, if it did, I would agree PF=HOTU.

For now I give adavantage to HOTU.



Yes, it was stated it was going to happen from one character. Which makes it probable, but it's still speculation from a character.

I would definitely prefer feats that actually occured and while depicted on screen, as opposed to feats that supposedly will happen based on statements made by characters. Wouldn't you?




Yes, Eternity is describing what might happen.




As I said I'm ready to accept that LT can be replaced too. Surprising though based on your arguments in the past where you put LT and PF on equal status.

Xplosive
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you wish to believe that then fine but the fact that Korvac with the power of 6 BELOW abstract level cosmics withstood LTs "ultimate punishment"

But that wasn't canon. So we can forget about it.

Mider
if you cant believe eternity or the watcher then who will you believe when the watcher said galactus was the most powerful he was talking about at that time i dont think they had eternity as a character yet his role as the most powerful was taken by eternity then eternitys was taken by LT and now LT's has been taken by the phoenix why you people defent LT so much is beyond me you say that eternity is falable what makes the LT so infalable many other beings have claimed ultimate or next to ultmate power beside him yet for some reason you all decide to choose to listen to him which is rediculous since he hasnt shown any such power he was defied by the sorceror supreme big whoop is he is the sorcerer supreme since when does that mean he can do things on a multiversal level meaning the LT is not as powerful as he should be the spectre would have owned dr strange.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mider
if you cant believe eternity or the watcher then who will you believe when the watcher said galactus was the most powerful he was talking about at that time i dont think they had eternity as a character yet his role as the most powerful was taken by eternity then eternitys was taken by LT and now LT's has been taken by the phoenix why you people defent LT so much is beyond me you say that eternity is falable what makes the LT so infalable many other beings have claimed ultimate or next to ultmate power beside him yet for some reason you all decide to choose to listen to him which is rediculous since he hasnt shown any such power he was defied by the sorceror supreme big whoop is he is the sorcerer supreme since when does that mean he can do things on a multiversal level meaning the LT is not as powerful as he should be the spectre would have owned dr strange.

It's pretty obvious Phoenix is beyond LT.

Richrf
Originally posted by Mider
if you cant believe eternity or the watcher then who will you believe when the watcher said galactus was the most powerful he was talking about at that time i dont think they had eternity as a character




And why doesn't GS accept that HOTU has now overtaken PF?

GalacticStorm
Now this is more like it!!! This thread has been dead for days. How ya doin Richie youre a vast improvement over Leon. The other night i didnt mean to be rude id just come in drunk and was in an annoying mood lol. With all the pleasntries out of the way lets get this started. big grin


Originally posted by Richrf
No dispute here. You are just repeating what was said.


We do agree here. When it's part of nature order, the abstracts will not resist. If it is unnatural they will resist. The dispute is whether it will be harder if they resist. With Thanos+HOTU, they definitely resisted.

If the stranger's plan worked, I would say we have an equalavant feat by PF. But it never happened. So we don't know.

We do have some evidence *based on what Eternity* says that PF could achieve a lesser feat (when the abstracts don't resist) when it was part of nature....

I'm open to the idea that LT being affected. However, Eternity is not an infalliable info source. So we should be wary of taking that as gospel.

You have argued that what Thanos says when he holds the HOTU should not be taken as gospel, surely eternity who is magnitudes less powerful, should come under the same rule?

No Eternity is not an infallible source, but having been around at the end of the previous cycle he would have witnessed the turnover. Current Eternity is of course according to X-men Forever the evolved humanity from the previous reality. On top of that of that Eternitys visualisation came after he said the fundamental forces of reality had convened to discuss matters which he had to then clarify with Jean. With that in mind youre quite correct to be open Richie.


Originally posted by Richrf
LT's biggest feat? GS i respect your knowledge, but a lots of times your bias shows so clearly it's not funny.

Hmm even a supporter of PF or in this case someone who wants to diminish LT to make PF look better, should be more objective than that. By any measure, You actually selected one of LT's lowest performance.

Any of LT's performance against IG, even interpreted in the worse light by you, surpasses making the sun go supernove.

Why is LT cancelling out/shunting away/blocking (whatever it was lol) beyond causing a sun to go nova in seconds with a force bolt? Not conclusively, so i resent the remark about me being overly bias lol, especially when its perfectly understandable why that event could be perceived to be a greater feat than shunting away a blast from the IG.

Granted. I overlooked that as a feat in itself and was more caught up on the issue of whether his power is greater than the IGs based on the events which followed in that very same issue. However not only has Dr Strange countered the IGs power in battle (gem for gem) with Adam but Eternity claimed to be in his totality (as opposed to just his M Body) beyond the Igs ability to harm him. So as a feat it still doesnt place LT in terms of power significantly beyond the abstracts if at all.

Originally posted by Richrf
If we are talking low performances, there are many PF ones too I believe.

The difference is that Phoenixes low showings are explained away on panel either at the time or later. They have never ever been down to a lack of power. The Korvac incident was merely as LT stated down to him lacking the ability to deal with the problem. It has never been adressed.


Originally posted by Richrf
The Korvac supernove issue is actually a low end performance, since we are talking about biggest feats here (and Whatifs generally don't count anyway), let's disregard that.

If we are just looking at high end feats then that Korvac incident can be disregarded for the moment however LTs biggest feats remain causing a supernova with a force bolt and cancelling out a blast of power from the IG. Something that as we've seen on panel debatably isnt beyond certain universal forces. Whether what ifs count is dependent on the character we're debating. As there is only one LT in Marvels multiverse the What Ifs count. In fact the action of turning a star into a supernova is detailed in his bio so while we wont take into consideration the flopping of said action, the action itself is one of few high feats for him.


Originally posted by Richrf
As for IG versus LT..

I actually read that issue, it is written from the POV of Adam Warlock, and as strange as it seems, for an omniscient being- Adam himself from page to page waffles about whether LT could best him or not. At some points he thinks not, at some points he thinks so. Most of the time he isn't sure.

However, the fact that there is some doubt to the issue, tells us that LT is indeed powerful, since there is no doubt at all that IG holders can ignore everything else even if combined.

Incorrect. Not once does Adam doubt whether he can best LT, he does however say he finds it hard to believe LTs master is beyond him. Which is obviously different

Either way its irrelevant because the crux of the matter is that LT doubts himself and so noone can conclusively say he's equal to or beyond the power of the IG. Such a notion certainly isnt canon and shouldnt be treated as such in debates.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Richrf
I would also like to draw a distinction between thwarting the will of LT and attacking and absorbing LT which means completely defeating LT.

The former occurs occasionally for PIS reasons, the latter is never considered even by The most powerful (Adam Warlock, kovac for example)...

Why is that?

Also it's interesting that Adam with IG never considers directly attacking LT, though he has no qualms of blasting Eternity. Why is that?

It seems that at best there is doubt over whether LT can make IG holders give up the IG, I would say on the balance that LT holds the edge, but anyway this is I think different from the issue on whether IG holders can absorb LT, I think this is why the general concensus is that HOTU feat is meant to be more powerful then IG's feat.

IG - There is doubt that you can defy a LT ruling

HOTU - Forget rulings, I can own LT.



Why is the Korvac incident PIS? There are no high level showings of LT which conclusively allow anyone to come to that conclusion.

Why do you need to draw a distinction between such obviously different things?

Adam may not have directly blasted LT like he did Eternity but he did attack the entire court initially and then went on to square up to him and LT agreed he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with Adam. Either way such talk is irrelevant in light of that.

Noones comparing the IG and HOTU because its stated and demonstrated on panel to be greater. A comparison between the two isnt even relevant to the debate.

Originally posted by Richrf
My guess is that, at the universial level, the IG might truly be nearly omnipotent, so even for beings like LT-TOAA- even your beloved PF, you can be as powerful as that, but no better. So when LT faces IG, it's possibly a stalemate

Well im glad you said my guess. Moving on.........

Originally posted by Richrf
I think though there is no way the holder of IG could absorb LT though. That goes beyond the IG.

This is relevant how? No need to establish how they compare with each other when theres on panel demonstrations and a person who has wielded both there to tell us.

Originally posted by Richrf
The PF might match up the HOTU, if we believe Eternity but with HOTU we have no doubt at all that it can absorb LT. With PF it's a possibility.

It's a pity The Stranger's plan didn't happen, if it did, I would agree PF=HOTU.

For now I give adavantage to HOTU.

The Phoenix Force might match up to HOTU based on what? The fact that it hasnt absorbed LT or be stated to be able to? LT regardless of his role by canon and by power isnt conclusively beyond universal forces so how does his absorption give HOTU the advantage?Such a feat is distinctly universal.

You seem to have forgotten about the M'kraan crystal event. Withstanding and holding in check with your own power the power which can simutaneously wipe out all realities, the entire multiverse is far beyond that feat. As stated on panel Phoenix held in check all that is. That on its own is beyond the HOTU feat plus on top of that you have other high level feats such as casually amputating 616s future timeline before recreating 616 in the palm of her hand atom by atom. Phoenix has connected all realities of the multiverse in an energy matrix as detailed in Excalibur. Suddenly absorbing and re-emitting a reality and its fundamental forces doesnt sound so impressive.



Originally posted by Richrf
Yes, it was stated it was going to happen from one character. Which makes it probable, but it's still speculation from a character.

I would definitely prefer feats that actually occured and while depicted on screen, as opposed to feats that supposedly will happen based on statements made by characters. Wouldn't you?

Going by X-men Forever, Eternity would have experienced the previous turnover so with that in mind he is a very reliable source. Galactus' latest bio supports X-men Forever with its talk of how the Phoenix Force allowed Galen to bond with the new Eternity. X-men Forever is canon, Eternity was around to know what hes talking about. When he spoke to Jean it was as a representative of all of the fundamental forces and that should be kept in mind when looking at what he said in an attempt to as he said clarify their position to Jean.

Originally posted by Richrf
As I said I'm ready to accept that LT can be replaced too. Surprising though based on your arguments in the past where you put LT and PF on equal status.

I still believe them to be peers however status and power dont always come hand in hand. With that in mind dont be surprised

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Xplosive
But that wasn't canon. So we can forget about it.

As there is only one LT in the multiverse the same rules dont apply. If you take a peek at his bio i think you'll find reference to the "ultimate punishment". Good try tho. I like how you tried to turn that on me lol.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by Richrf
And why doesn't GS accept that HOTU has now overtaken PF?

I will when thats conclusively the case. As and when HOTU has better feats i'll consider your point of view. wink

leonidas
gs is right on about lt. h has done precious little to make anyone believe he's as powerful as some claim him to be. even in his first appearance strange/ancient one was able to briefly resist him -- without prep! eek!

GalacticStorm
Beyonder dont even think about it laughing out loud

leonidas
what do ya know, he didn't!!

laughing out loud

Mider
why LT was given such a high mantle is weak instead of growing more powerful like the spectre to prove his claims he has infact grown weaker or not grown at all all the characters have either grown weaker or stronger such as the PF has grown stronger while most of hte other cosmics have stayed the same which is pretty sad but i guess there place in the universe is far to defined to power them up or depower them oh and i was talking about alot of comics when i was talking about heads getting cut off and stuff GS :P hmm id tell you but you might beat me to the books big grin ok ok that one was faust and Insane clown posse comics look pretty gooey and other comics like splatter and silent hill look pretty good but yeah im still interested in stuff like ummm infinite crisis or day of vengence big grin fun stuff!

leonidas
man, mider, why the hate on for punctuation??!

Richrf
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why is the Korvac incident PIS? There are no high level showings of LT which conclusively allow anyone to come to that conclusion.


An all powerful being who always wins would be boring. For dramatic purposes... The same problem also plagues your beloved PF... with lots of low showings... I've enjoyed watching you try to squirm out of them.....

I'm not sure if What ifs count as canon. Normally they don't, but you *speculate* that LT being multiuniversal plays under different rules, but that's just speculation really.




Actually, I draw a parallel between The stranger's plan and HOTU's absorption of LT, particularly because they could be compared.

The problem with pointing at random feats and saying that because X did it, and Y didn't , proved that X is more powerful then Y is that the logic doesn't hold.

Maybe Y could do it, but it was beneath him so he let X save the day. Maybe Y prefered to trick X to do it. Maybe ......

You know the drill, GS, people have attacked PF using similar arguments.

Eg , I've seen people attack PF for not appearing in various crisises, and PF supporters like yourself have to try to explain that away..





Remember Thanos who wield both powers, was certainly qualified to state which power was greater. Even if you want to argue that he was speculating about the source of the power, certainly he would be more than qualified in making objective judgements of relative power.Certainly if you are willing to take Eternity's word..

By your arguments about LT vs IG, you raised the power of IG, or lowered the power of LT. But either way since HOTU > IG, you have only succueeded in making HOTU even more powerful in my mind.

My own view is that while there was doubt if LT could have won out over IG, other indications such as the LT ruling that prevented the gems from working together showed that LT was indeed supreme over IG. Isn't that a powerful feat?




I'm honest about my speculations, unlike you.....



Yes.



Hmm interesting, is it your view LT is multiuniversal or not?

You said "As there is only one LT in the multiverse the same rules dont apply." Is that the same as saying he is multiuniversal?

Is it conclusively shown that PF is beyond universal forces? How would one go about doing that? Is there only one PF in the multiverse?



Sadly, as reliable as he is, it still doesn't compare to actually having the events depicted on panel. HOTU actually did the deed. PF *might* be able to do it.

It's easy enough for a retcon to show that Eternity was mistaken, or lying ...

Of course a retcon could show that Thanos was mistaken or lying too, about abosrbing LT, but far less likely. Since it was written in first person POV.

GalacticStorm

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