Wolverine vs Batgirl(with an adamantium sword)

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unknowable
Logan is an animal, a killer.


Cassandra is a master assassin, with an adamantium sword.



who wins...

The Ion
Wolverine gets speedblitzed.

thesilverspider
Originally posted by The Ion
Wolverine gets speedblitzed.
DAmn right

vamp d-3
yes, a fight with wolverine in which there's not 20 posts of
''wOlVeRiNe WiLl PWn 'Er''
and cassie will win, she'll PoInT-PrEsSuRe-bEaT 'Im

long pig
She beats him 20.000002 seconds slower than Slade would.

JohnR
BG wins.

capt it up
why does she win? please im begging to know.

badabing
I'm just quoting from other threads, Batgirl Cass is supposed to be the best at martial arts in DC. This is an opinion I've seen from others so don't all jump at my throat.

capt it up
Originally posted by badabing
I'm just quoting from other threads, Batgirl Cass is supposed to be the best at martial arts in DC. This is an opinion I've seen from others so don't all jump at my throat.
I see, but even if she was which she is not that would never give her the win

badabing
That's for you and the DC guys to figure out. I don't know too much about Batgirl Cass.

capt it up
Originally posted by badabing
That's for you and the DC guys to figure out. I don't know too much about Batgirl Cass.
she cna read opponets moves.
also karate kid is the best fighter in DC

badabing
I don't know anything about her. About 2 months ago I posted against her and everybody tore me a new one. Now when I see Batgirl Cass, I stay away from the debate. I know very little about her or her feats.

capt it up
Originally posted by badabing
I don't know anything about her. About 2 months ago I posted against her and everybody tore me a new one. Now when I see Batgirl Cass, I stay away from the debate. I know very little about her or her feats.
she was thought to be a meta human by shiva. she not a meta human she can just read opponets moves and for some reaosn that emans she could beat logan which is not gunna happen.

badabing
Yeah, they all said she was a meta human. So she's not?

capt it up
Originally posted by badabing
Yeah, they all said she was a meta human. So she's not?
no she not to my knowledges she was thought to be a meta human by shiva but she not. her abiltiy to rea doppnets moves made shiva think she was meta human.

she nuthing special comapred to people logan has battle repeatedly.

badabing
Reading moves. A lot of skilled fighters can do that to some degree.

capt it up
Originally posted by badabing
Reading moves. A lot of skilled fighters can do that to some degree.
true she as close to beign a telepath as u can be with out being one. which matter little in a fight vs logan

long pig
She's faster than him. She wasn't called meta by Shiva, she was called meta by trainers.

Shiva knew all about BG because they employ the same move reading ability and Shiva cought on after watching her fight for a half second.

Simply, Wolverine is too slow and BG is too fast and skilled. Logan would never touch her but she'd touch him and end up nerve punching him.

Plus, she carries weapons.

capt it up
Originally posted by long pig
She's faster than him. She wasn't called meta by Shiva, she was called meta by trainers.

Shiva knew all about BG because they employ the same move reading ability and Shiva cought on after watching her fight for a half second.

Simply, Wolverine is too slow and BG is too fast and skilled. Logan would never touch her but she'd touch him and end up nerve punching him.

Plus, she carries weapons.
she not even a meta human yet u say she faster then wolevrine? hell no shes not and vbs some one like woleverine reading opponets moves is worth less
proof she fast then wolevrine.
wolverine a meta human BG is not.

srankmissingnin
Batgirl has been tagged by Onyx for christ sakes. Shiva and Batman have both traded blows with Cass and Wolverine is faster then both of them. Don't get me wrong the girl is fast but she couldn't even touch DS when he was "trying," and while DS has a speed edge over Wolverine it is very slight. No way in hell is she speed blitzing Wolverine.

Logan wins easily.

Superherovandal
actually she'd win. I mean Elektra can beat Wolvie. And BG is at least as good if not better than her.

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
actually she'd win. I mean Elektra can beat Wolvie. And BG is at least as good if not better than her.
? no she can't. u say electra cna beat wolverine prove that she has never shown that she can

batdude123
Actually it's been stated many times even by Bruce himself, that if Cassandra wanted to beat his ass, there would be not much he could do to stop her from doing so. Her sense of predicting moves is so acute, that it requires a very large portion of her brain, that's why up until recently, she was a mute. The predicting moves took over her speech part of the brain. Anyways, Bat Girl has also defeated Lady Shiva more times than Shiva defeated Cass.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
Actually it's been stated many times even by Bruce himself, that if Cassandra wanted to beat his ass, there would be not much he could do to stop her from doing so. Her sense of predicting moves is so acute, that it requires a very large portion of her brain, that's why up until recently, she was a mute. The predicting moves took over her speech part of the brain. Anyways, Bat Girl has also defeated Lady Shiva more times than Shiva defeated Cass.
why would any of this matter?

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
why would any of this matter?

Because she could predict Wolverine's moves before he makes them, and with her speed and agility, she could plunge the adamantium sword in a pressure point or something to knock him out. She wouldn't be able to kill Wolverine, but she would probably knock him out. Anyways, here's a question. If the sword is made of pure adamantium, could she cut his arm or leg off? A sword is thicker than the coating of adamantium on his bones. I think she might be able to do it.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
actually she'd win. I mean Elektra can beat Wolvie. And BG is at least as good if not better than her.

Do you people actually know anything about Elektra? People post crap like this all the time and it really makes me wonder. Elektra is one of the best combatants on Marvel earth. She is what Lady Shiva would be if she was a low level telepath, physically superior and had a whole slew of other ninja mind tricks at her disposal. Elektra would walk all over Cass.

And even though that is all true she still doesn't have an snow balls chance in hell agaisnt Wolverine.

Superherovandal
what has she ever done to show herself physically superior to Shiva. or even close to as good?

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
Because she could predict Wolverine's moves before he makes them, and with her speed and agility, she could plunge the adamantium sword in a pressure point or something to knock him out. She wouldn't be able to kill Wolverine, but she would probably knock him out. Anyways, here's a question. If the sword is made of pure adamantium, could she cut his arm or leg off? A sword is thicker than the coating of adamantium on his bones. I think she might be able to do it.
actauly she could not. wolverine can fight so his midn and body are one making BG read atatcks useless. also wolevrien due to hyper sense can read peoples atatcks wlso.
wolverine can also go beserker making BG reading attacks abilites useless as well.
wolverine knosw a number of ways to make BG abiltiy absolutly useless.

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Do you people actually know anything about Elektra? People post crap like this all the time and it really makes me wonder. Elektra is one of the best combatants on Marvel earth. She is what Lady Shiva would be if she was a low level telepath, physically superior and had a whole slew of other ninja mind tricks at her disposal. Elektra would walk all over Cass.

And even though that is all true she still doesn't have an snow balls chance in hell agaisnt Wolverine.

Well, Cassandra beats on Shiva too. Physically superior? Do have any proof of this, because I've seen some pretty uber sh*t that Shiva has pulled off as well. How do know that Elektra is the better combatant anyway in the first place? I doubt Elektra would beat Cass, especially if she's holding an adamantium sword.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by batdude123
Actually it's been stated many times even by Bruce himself, that if Cassandra wanted to beat his ass, there would be not much he could do to stop her from doing so. Her sense of predicting moves is so acute, that it requires a very large portion of her brain, that's why up until recently, she was a mute. The predicting moves took over her speech part of the brain. Anyways, Bat Girl has also defeated Lady Shiva more times than Shiva defeated Cass.

This means less then nothing budy. While Cass is superior to Bruce and would take the large majority of fights Bruce has shown that he has the ability to a) land hits on Cass and b) avoid some of her attacks. Thats really all the proof need to suggest Wolverine could do the same considering he is physically superior to Bruce and at the very least his equal in h2h.

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Do you people actually know anything about Elektra? People post crap like this all the time and it really makes me wonder. Elektra is one of the best combatants on Marvel earth. She is what Lady Shiva would be if she was a low level telepath, physically superior and had a whole slew of other ninja mind tricks at her disposal. Elektra would walk all over Cass.

And even though that is all true she still doesn't have an snow balls chance in hell agaisnt Wolverine.

Plus, that post right there shows me you don't know much about Lady Shiva.

Superherovandal
his mind and body are one? that won't help at all. he still will be able to be read. shes not like a telepath. She reads his movements before he makes the move. So she'll already know what he's going to do physically before he does it.

Tshern
Originally posted by Superherovandal
his mind and body are one? that won't help at all. he still will be able to be read. shes not like a telepath. She reads his movements before he makes the move. So she'll already know what he's going to do physically before he does it.

That might exactly be why she couldn't read Slade's movements... So there are exceptions and Wolverine might be one of them.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
actauly she could not. wolverine can fight so his midn and body are one making BG read atatcks useless. also wolevrien due to hyper sense can read peoples atatcks wlso.
wolverine can also go beserker making BG reading attacks abilites useless as well.
wolverine knosw a number of ways to make BG abiltiy absolutly useless.

Since when does he have this so-called "hyper sense" and can predict people's moves with it? What the f**k? Plus, Wolverine doesn't just start out a fight in berserker mode anyways. I doubt Cass would let Wolverine last long enough to go into berserker mode.

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
This means less then nothing budy. While Cass is superior to Bruce and would take the large majority of fights Bruce has shown that he has the ability to a) land hits on Cass and b) avoid some of her attacks. Thats really all the proof need to suggest Wolverine could do the same considering he is physically superior to Bruce and at the very least his equal in h2h.

What the f**k? She still ends up kicking his ass and besides, Bruce even admitted himself that he couldn't beat her. Plus, when she's fighting Batman, she's not holding an adamantium sword either. wink

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by batdude123
Well, Cassandra beats on Shiva too. Physically superior? Do have any proof of this, because I've seen some pretty uber sh*t that Shiva has pulled off as well. How do know that Elektra is the better combatant anyway in the first place? I doubt Elektra would beat Cass, especially if she's holding an adamantium sword.

Because Elektra has strength and speed feats that put her in the superhuman range (hell she was a peak human gold metal athlete when she was 14). She is physically superior to Shiva.

Then there is the fact that a main part of Elektra's training envolved learning how not to telegraph her attacks, Cass might not even be able to read Elektra's moves for all we know. Doesn't matter though because even if Elektra decided not to create an elaborate illusion in Cass' head and kill her while she is fighting some illusion and fight on Cass' terms she'd still win.

Superherovandal
and half the stuff that Batgirl does is superhuman. dodging multiple bullets at like near point-blank. many of the people who examine her say she's a meta-human in terms of speed, strength, agility, etc.

Superherovandal
the reason she can't read his moves are cause he's just super-human in terms of speed. way beyond Wolverine in all physical aspects excluding healing.

capt it up
Originally posted by Tshern
That might exactly be why she couldn't read Slade's movements... So there are exceptions and Wolverine might be one of them.
yup

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by batdude123
What the f**k? She still ends up kicking his ass and besides, Bruce even admitted himself that he couldn't beat her. Plus, when she's fighting Batman, she's not holding an adamantium sword either. wink

... No she didn't. The fight ended and it was draw. Maybe Cass would have won in the end but Bruce held his own (even though he was on the run most of the time) for the entire fight, it is just as likely that he would have won (and unless it is strictly h2h fight odds are he gets the majority against Cass).

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
the reason she can't read his moves are cause he's just super-human in terms of speed. way beyond Wolverine in all physical aspects excluding healing.
actauly slade at best is only slightly faster then wolevrine.
do u even know what wolverines agility and reflex are listed as?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
the reason she can't read his moves are cause he's just super-human in terms of speed. way beyond Wolverine in all physical aspects excluding healing.

... At the very best Slade's speed is slightly above Wolverines. All of Wolverine's attributes (like Slade) are superhuman.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
Since when does he have this so-called "hyper sense" and can predict people's moves with it? What the f**k? Plus, Wolverine doesn't just start out a fight in berserker mode anyways. I doubt Cass would let Wolverine last long enough to go into berserker mode.
mister-x is afr BG superior and he was unable to take wolverine out before he went beseker.

Tshern
But can she read his moves? She couldn't read Slade's...

Edit: Heck, didn't see that you already commented on it. My bad.

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
his mind and body are one? that won't help at all. he still will be able to be read. shes not like a telepath. She reads his movements before he makes the move. So she'll already know what he's going to do physically before he does it.
ya telepaths ability is far better

Superherovandal
cause he can shoot Kid Flash.

capt it up
Originally posted by Tshern
But can she read his moves? She couldn't read Slade's...
nope she can't not in beserker she can't. she can't read his moves also if he fight with mind and body as one. when he thinks a move he already doing it and makes mind reader and such unable to read opponets moves

Superherovandal
no cause he's somewhat resistant to telepathy thats why a telepath can do that.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Tshern
But can she read his moves? She couldn't read Slade's...

Edit: Heck, didn't see that you already commented on it. My bad.

Even if she can read Wolverine's moves (although I think it would turn out like her trying to read Slade's moves) this hardly equates to Cass being able to stop him. Wolverine is too fast and too strong for Cass to put up much of a defence after he attacks, she will be on the defensive the entire fight... unless she attempts to go on the offensive which will leave her open for an attack. She either trys to find Wolverine off until she runs out of steam and Wolverine wins, or she can try to bring to fight to him in which case it hardly a fight an more of a slaughter.

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
no cause he's somewhat resistant to telepathy thats why a telepath can do that.
not fully true actauly. wolevrien ahs beaten telepaths by making them think eh willa ttack one way then atatck another. he has beaten telepaths by making his moves so random they could not read them. also he has attacked telepaths and by the time they read his move he ahd already hit them.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
mister-x is afr BG superior and he was unable to take wolverine out before he went beseker.

What the f**k? There's no way of knowing whether or not Wolverine would even get a chance at becoming berserker. Besides, Cass doesn't read the mind, she reads the opponents moves and what kind of move that they are going to do next. So even if Wolverine went into berserker mode, she'd still be able to read his body.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
ya telepaths ability is far better

Not when you can't read the person's mind. wink

badabing
Capt, didn't Wolverine lose to Jubilee?













Just kidding. laughing

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by batdude123
What the f**k? There's no way of knowing whether or not Wolverine would even get a chance at becoming berserker.

Yeah because we all know a sword does waaaaaaaaaaay more damage then Wolverine can handle. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by batdude123
Besides, Cass doesn't read the mind, she reads the opponents moves and what kind of move that they are going to do next. So even if Wolverine went into berserker mode, she'd still be able to read his body.

Every fighter worth his (or her) weight in salt can read the body language of their opponent to some degree. Even if she can read Logan's body language he is going to be hitting too hard and too fast for it to matter.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
What the f**k? There's no way of knowing whether or not Wolverine would even get a chance at becoming berserker. Besides, Cass doesn't read the mind, she reads the opponents moves and what kind of move that they are going to do next. So even if Wolverine went into berserker mode, she'd still be able to read his body.
actauly she would not beable too. since he fighting on a good portion of instincts, she would not have the timd to read the attacks because the attacks be moving with out wolverine thinking about them.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
Not when you can't read the person's mind. wink
but they all could read wolverines mind

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
but they all could read wolverines mind

Dude, the first time Mister X fought Wolverine, he read his mind and busted him up pretty bad. The second time they fought, Wolverine went berserker so there for, Mister X COULD NOT read his mind and Wolverine won.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
actauly she would not beable too. since he fighting on a good portion of instincts, she would not have the timd to read the attacks because the attacks be moving with out wolverine thinking about them.

That doesn't even make sense. You have to have brain function in order to move your body, instincs, animals, or otherwise. What you said is contradictory to itself. Anyways, yes Cass could still read his moves while fighting him because she's not reading his mind, she's reading his body.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
Dude, the first time Mister X fought Wolverine, he read his mind and busted him up pretty bad. The second time they fought, Wolverine went berserker so there for, Mister X COULD NOT read his mind and Wolverine won.
wolverien won next time after that as well.
mister-x would destroy cass.

also u think that the only fight im speaking about? that was on for my besekrer refrences.

wolverine defeated pylocke by fighting mind and body as one.

he also defeated an assassin who has a special training to take him down wa sa telepath had a suit with quite a few abilites and the suit also made her times 10 stornger,fast,more agile,better reflexes and wolverine still beate her ass

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah because we all know a sword does waaaaaaaaaaay more damage then Wolverine can handle. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Every fighter worth his (or her) weight in salt can read the body language of their opponent to some degree. Even if she can read Logan's body language he is going to be hitting too hard and too fast for it to matter.

While I agree that they have a degree to sense what they're opponent's can do (call it intuition more than anything), they can't do it on the scale that Batgirl can do it. Why do you think it mentions her ability to read people's motions and how long it took her to develope this skill in comic books? She is above what an average fighter can do in terms of reading your opponent. She has honed and developed this skill ever since she was really young. She's definitely NOT an average fighter.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
That doesn't even make sense. You have to have brain function in order to move your body, instincs, animals, or otherwise. What you said is contradictory to itself. Anyways, yes Cass could still read his moves while fighting him because she's not reading his mind, she's reading his body.
actauly im not wolverine can attack on pure instincts and fight like that or he can fight with his body and mind as one so when he thinking the mvoe he doing it. cass reading abilties would be useless sicne wolverine beatatcking so quickly and random she would be uable to read the atatck properly.
also wolverine due to his sense can sense attacks as well.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
wolverien won next time after that as well.
mister-x would destroy cass.

also u think that the only fight im speaking about? that was on for my besekrer refrences.

wolverine defeated pylocke by fighting mind and body as one.

he also defeated an assassin who has a special training to take him down wa sa telepath had a suit with quite a few abilites and the suit also made her times 10 stornger,fast,more agile,better reflexes and wolverine still beate her ass

You're still not getting this. CASS IS NOT A TELEPATH. SHE CAN READ HIS BODY WHETHER OR NOT HE'S IN BERSERKER OR NOT. SHE DOESN'T READ PEOPLE'S MINDS, SO WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS FIGHT.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
While I agree that they have a degree to sense what they're opponent's can do (call it intuition more than anything), they can't do it on the scale that Batgirl can do it. Why do you think it mentions her ability to read people's motions and how long it took her to develope this skill in comic books? She is above what an average fighter can do in terms of reading your opponent. She has honed and developed this skill ever since she was really young. She's definitely NOT an average fighter.
wolvreine still has 100 + years of experience over her lol

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
actauly im not wolverine can attack on pure instincts and fight like that or he can fight with his body and mind as one so when he thinking the mvoe he doing it. cass reading abilties would be useless sicne wolverine beatatcking so quickly and random she would be uable to read the atatck properly.
also wolverine due to his sense can sense attacks as well.

You're just guessing that Batgirl would not be able to. I'm sorry my friend, but you're grabing at straws here.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
wolvreine still has 100 + years of experience over her lol

shifty

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
You're still not getting this. CASS IS NOT A TELEPATH. SHE CAN READ HIS BODY WHETHER OR NOT HE'S IN BERSERKER OR NOT. SHE DOESN'T READ PEOPLE'S MINDS, SO WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS FIGHT.
actauly it very relvent. she not going to ahve tiem to rea dhis move since he not even going to know wer ehe going to atatck till he attacks there. also reading moves is fallowing a person body standce and such but wolverine on pure instiucts his moves are extremely random and reading his stance would be usesless,

also DD and wolverine can both read opponets moves due to hyper senses.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
You're just guessing that Batgirl would not be able to. I'm sorry my friend, but you're grabing at straws here.
actauly im not. she unable to read death stroke moves for the very same reason

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by batdude123
While I agree that they have a degree to sense what they're opponent's can do (call it intuition more than anything), they can't do it on the scale that Batgirl can do it. Why do you think it mentions her ability to read people's motions and how long it took her to develope this skill in comic books? She is above what an average fighter can do in terms of reading your opponent. She has honed and developed this skill ever since she was really young. She's definitely NOT an average fighter.


I could flat out tell you that I'm going to punch in the face with my right arm in five seconds and it doesn't mean I wont hit you. Knowing something doesn't mean you'll be able to put up a difference against it.

And once again, when Cass lost her ability to read body language like an open book Batman wouldn't her patrol. He said she wasn't good enough, and apparently Robin is skilled enough to go out on patrol. Explain this please? Cass is an average fighter with a huge advantage of being able to read the movements of her opponent that is all.

Superherovandal
actually she's a great fighter. but seriously if one is used to living and fighting one way since u've been able to walk and suddenly lose that you wouldn't be in any shape to fight. like this if Wolvie lost every mutant power he had he wouldn't be nearly as effective as he would be with them. And since she's was not used to fighting without her ability to read moves she would be very vulnerable not cause she's just an average fighter.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
actually she's a great fighter. but seriously if one is used to living and fighting one way since u've been able to walk and suddenly lose that you wouldn't be in any shape to fight. like this if Wolvie lost every mutant power he had he wouldn't be nearly as effective as he would be with them. And since she's was not used to fighting without her ability to read moves she would be very vulnerable not cause she's just an average fighter.

Batman said it would take years of training for Cass to be good enough to patrol with out her ability to read body language. She just isn't good with out it. If Richard Dragon lost his right arm he'd still be out their kicking ass, not much of a difference. She is essentially an average fighter with telepathy except in this case it is the ability to read body language which she developed out of necessity.

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I could flat out tell you that I'm going to punch in the face with my right arm in five seconds and it doesn't mean I wont hit you. Knowing something doesn't mean you'll be able to put up a difference against it.

And once again, when Cass lost her ability to read body language like an open book Batman wouldn't her patrol. He said she wasn't good enough, and apparently Robin is skilled enough to go out on patrol. Explain this please? Cass is an average fighter with a huge advantage of being able to read the movements of her opponent that is all.

You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.

You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?

Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.

Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."

Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.

Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?

Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."

The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.

Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)

And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:

Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."

Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.

Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average') it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.


Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."


And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!

If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright.

Rick/Genis
I'd just thought I'd put out my two cents... I'm not going to become too involved with this debate:



What good is 100+ years of experience if you can't remember it...





I'm assuming she's unable to read deathstrokes moves because he uses 90% of his friggin' brain. Please don't say Wolverine uses that much of his brain...

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Rick/Genis
I'd just thought I'd put out my two cents... I'm not going to become too involved with this debate:



What good is 100+ years of experience if you can't remember it...





I'm assuming she's unable to read deathstrokes moves because he uses 90% of his friggin' brain. Please don't say Wolverine uses that much of his brain...

Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.


Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

Superherovandal
not really 100+ years experience. for at least 30 of those years he was a kid, a sickly teenage, just a miner with Rose in a small town. so it'd be like 70 years

srankmissingnin
He was a cage fighter during most of those years, and a good one at that.

Superherovandal
he uses 90 for tactical, higher, fighting thinking. not bodily functions.

batdude123
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.


Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

It's not a misconception. He uses 90% of his brain to think and reason and for fighting ability.

Rick/Genis
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.


Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

people use about 10% of there brains, dude.... that's been a known fact for a while.

batdude123
Originally posted by Rick/Genis
people use about 10% of there brains, dude.... that's been a known fact for a while.

Actually, people only use 10% of their brain for thinking. wink

Superherovandal
Born the second son of wealthy landowners John and Elizabeth Howlett in Alberta, Canada during the late 19th Century, James Howlett was a frail boy of poor health. James was largely neglected by his mother, who was institutionalized for a time following the death of her first son, John Jr., in 1897. He spent most of his early years on the estate grounds and had two playmates that lived on the Howlett estate with him: Rose, a red-headed girl who was brought in from town to be a companion to young James, and a boy nicknamed "Dog" who was the son of the groundskeeper, Thomas Logan. Thomas Logan was an alcoholic and was extremely abusive to his son. The children were close friends but as they reached young adulthood, the abuse inflicted upon Dog warped his mind. His actions would lead to a tragic chain of events. that started as the three neared their adolescent years when Dog made unwanted advances toward Rose and James reported it to his father. In retaliation Dog killed James's pet dog. This in turn resulted in the expulsion of Thomas Logan and Dog Logan from the estate.
Thomas Logan, in a drunken stupor, invaded the Howlett estate with his son and attempted to take Elizabeth Howlett (implied to be his former lover) with him. John attempted to stop him and Thomas Logan shot him down in cold blood. James Howlett had just entered the room when this occurred and for the first time his mutation manifested; his claws extended from the backs of his hands and he attacked the intruders with uncharacteristic ferocity, killing Thomas Logan, and scarring Dog's face with three claw marks. Elizabeth Howlett, who was already an emotionally disturbed woman, took her life immediately afterward with a blast from Thomas's gun. Fearing for their safety, Rose fled the estate with James, who appeared to have been deeply traumatized and had somehow repressed or forgotten most of the memories of life back at the estate. Dog falsely reported to the police and James's grandfather that Rose had murdered John Howlett II and Thomas Logan. The eldest Howlett, shunned James and with no family left, took Dog in as his ward. However, Dog was already a burgeoning psychopath and it was too late for his character to evolve down any other path.

In the years that followed, James and Rose took refuge in a British Colombia mining colony under the guise of being cousins. James also assumed the name of "Logan" in order to hide his identity. As the hard work of mining toughened his body, and his mutant powers developed, he grew to be unusually strong and ferocious.He was immune to the elements and even ran with the wolves in the forest, learning to hunt as an animal hunts. "Logan" became a valuable and admirable figure amongst the small community of miners due to his hard work and strong ethics, earning him the respect of his peers, including the foreman Smitty, who became a surrogate father figure to James. During this period, James developed strong feelings for Rose, but could not act on them for the sake of their guise as cousins. Smitty, who had been mentoring James all these years, had also grown close to Rose, and the two eventually fell in love and became engaged, much to the scorn and surprise of James, who later accepted the situation for the sake of Rose's happiness.


That doesn't say anything about him fighting during that time.

Rick/Genis
the average Human uses 10% of there brain, dude.... that's been a fact for a while!

THAT being said, it's not his speed that trumped her... it's his ability to predict batgirl BETTER than she could predict him.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
That doesn't say anything about him fighting during that time.

You might want to actually read orgins then.

Superherovandal
I know he fought Dog and beat him. and that he killed Dog's dad. but when was he actually fighting others.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Rick/Genis
the average Human uses 10% of there brain, dude.... that's been a

No, thats a misconception

Originally posted by Rick/Genis
THAT being said, it's not his speed that trumped her... it's his ability to predict batgirl BETTER than she could predict him.

... what? He didn't predict anything. She said she couldn't read him. She made some sort of analogy comparing music to her body reading ability and said that Deathstroke was too loud and too much going on at once.

TheKahn
People only using 10% of their brain is a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Superherovandal
I know he fought Dog and beat him. and that he killed Dog's dad. but when was he actually fighting others.

He did alot of cage fighting. He fought Cookie in the cage and he also fought the guy who married Rose (I forget his name, but Logan threw the fight).

diabloman
wolvie wins

Rick/Genis
Originally posted by TheKahn
People only using 10% of their brain is a myth.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Regardless, just because it's a myth in real life, doesn't mean it's a myth in the DC Universe.

It specifically states "Slade is able to use 90 or so% of his brain".

That would make him RETARDED if that statement were said here. And he's PROVED he's not retarded...

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
Born the second son of wealthy landowners John and Elizabeth Howlett in Alberta, Canada during the late 19th Century, James Howlett was a frail boy of poor health. James was largely neglected by his mother, who was institutionalized for a time following the death of her first son, John Jr., in 1897. He spent most of his early years on the estate grounds and had two playmates that lived on the Howlett estate with him: Rose, a red-headed girl who was brought in from town to be a companion to young James, and a boy nicknamed "Dog" who was the son of the groundskeeper, Thomas Logan. Thomas Logan was an alcoholic and was extremely abusive to his son. The children were close friends but as they reached young adulthood, the abuse inflicted upon Dog warped his mind. His actions would lead to a tragic chain of events. that started as the three neared their adolescent years when Dog made unwanted advances toward Rose and James reported it to his father. In retaliation Dog killed James's pet dog. This in turn resulted in the expulsion of Thomas Logan and Dog Logan from the estate.
Thomas Logan, in a drunken stupor, invaded the Howlett estate with his son and attempted to take Elizabeth Howlett (implied to be his former lover) with him. John attempted to stop him and Thomas Logan shot him down in cold blood. James Howlett had just entered the room when this occurred and for the first time his mutation manifested; his claws extended from the backs of his hands and he attacked the intruders with uncharacteristic ferocity, killing Thomas Logan, and scarring Dog's face with three claw marks. Elizabeth Howlett, who was already an emotionally disturbed woman, took her life immediately afterward with a blast from Thomas's gun. Fearing for their safety, Rose fled the estate with James, who appeared to have been deeply traumatized and had somehow repressed or forgotten most of the memories of life back at the estate. Dog falsely reported to the police and James's grandfather that Rose had murdered John Howlett II and Thomas Logan. The eldest Howlett, shunned James and with no family left, took Dog in as his ward. However, Dog was already a burgeoning psychopath and it was too late for his character to evolve down any other path.

In the years that followed, James and Rose took refuge in a British Colombia mining colony under the guise of being cousins. James also assumed the name of "Logan" in order to hide his identity. As the hard work of mining toughened his body, and his mutant powers developed, he grew to be unusually strong and ferocious.He was immune to the elements and even ran with the wolves in the forest, learning to hunt as an animal hunts. "Logan" became a valuable and admirable figure amongst the small community of miners due to his hard work and strong ethics, earning him the respect of his peers, including the foreman Smitty, who became a surrogate father figure to James. During this period, James developed strong feelings for Rose, but could not act on them for the sake of their guise as cousins. Smitty, who had been mentoring James all these years, had also grown close to Rose, and the two eventually fell in love and became engaged, much to the scorn and surprise of James, who later accepted the situation for the sake of Rose's happiness.


That doesn't say anything about him fighting during that time. g
if u read the comic and not some grummy BIO u know that he cae fought

batdude123
Originally posted by Rick/Genis
Regardless, just because it's a myth in real life, doesn't mean it's a myth in the DC Universe.

It specifically states "Slade is able to use 90 or so% of his brain".

That would make him RETARDED if that statement were said here. And he's PROVED he's not retarded...

No, people only use 10% of their brain for THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Swanky-Tuna
Slade's "90% of his brain" thing is weird. That means he'd be using the parts of his brain that let him use scissors and keep his bowels from dropping into his pants to think of a way to beat his opponent.

capt it up
logan wins he too fast and strong for BG

batdude123
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Slade's "90% of his brain" thing is weird. That means he'd be using the parts of his brain that let him use scissors and keep his bowels from dropping into his pants to think of a way to beat his opponent.

laughing

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
logan wins he too fast and strong for BG

The speed thing actually is debatable. Batgirl has shown some pretty awesome speed feats herself.

capt it up
Originally posted by batdude123
The speed thing actually is debatable. Batgirl has shown some pretty awesome speed feats herself.
such as?

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
such as?

Dodging and weaving in and out of bullets being fired at her at point blank range.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by capt it up
such as?

The one feat where she weaves inbetween bullets after they've been fired. I'd say it's a SM vs FL feat though.

batdude123
Originally posted by capt it up
such as?

Oops. Didn't mean to post anything here. big grin

Superherovandal
she's done multiple times so its not PIS.

capt it up
Originally posted by Superherovandal
she's done multiple times so its not PIS.
can u name these multiable times?

MrHeavySilence
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Slade's "90% of his brain" thing is weird. That means he'd be using the parts of his brain that let him use scissors and keep his bowels from dropping into his pants to think of a way to beat his opponent.

That's probably why he uses 90% of his brain. 100% probably means crapping in his pants.

darthgoober
Bump

h1a8
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has had all his memeries back since House of M finished.


Wolverine uses 100 of his brain, just like all people do. Slade's ability is based around a misconception. That being said it is his body movement that his being read not his mind so it doesn't matter how much he is using. She couldn't read him because he moved to fast.

I'm not in this discussion but a mere spectator.
I have to interject here though.
I studied and did research on the brain for several months now.
Even the smartest humans ever use less than 50%of their brain. There is more than 50% brain that is dormant (never used or awakened) when a person dies. Most of these dormant areas are like hard drive space. They record memories and skills and such. If a person used 100% of their brain then not only would they not be able to learn new skills but they couldn't remember anything new either. That means they would go through life not knowing anything past the time before they used 100% of their brain. For they would have a 0 sec memory. And this my friend is infinitely worse than a 12 sec memory (50 first dates).

Daredevil1
I'll have to go with Logan on this one. Guy takes way to much damage.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not in this discussion but a mere spectator.
I have to interject here though.
I studied and did research on the brain for several months now.
Even the smartest humans ever use less than 50%of their brain. There is more than 50% brain that is dormant (never used or awakened) when a person dies. Most of these dormant areas are like hard drive space. They record memories and skills and such. If a person used 100% of their brain then not only would they not be able to learn new skills but they couldn't remember anything new either. That means they would go through life not knowing anything past the time before they used 100% of their brain. For they would have a 0 sec memory. And this my friend is infinitely worse than a 12 sec memory (50 first dates).

People may only use a portion of the brain for cognitive process but the brain in its 100% entirety is consistently working. At least thats what I have been told/read.

*shrugs*

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