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Fully powered, I have heard that Michael and Lucifer are strong as or possibly stronger then the presence when together.

(by the way if I am wrong about this, didn't mean to be ignorant, saw it on these forums, not sure about it though which is why I included the word possibly)

If TOAA is truly the One above all then that already says it.

if the title infact was true then the celestial TOAA would be .............the one above all anyway.............TOAA was shown to exaust all his powers when he gave his powers to thanos in thanos the end he died remaking the universe that would not happen to the presence he would just call lucifer and micheal to make a new multiverse there end of issue.

where talking about the guy who is the power behind the living tribunal right and isn't the "end" series an altrnate reality, and can't be used on the vs. forum expeshaly if it shows a differnce in the chareter. When what you said he exausted his powers that would mean he has a limit which would go agenst what we've seen before.

If TOAA was trully omnipresent, then the TOAA in that alternate reality was "the" TOAA, since he exist in all universes, since he is above the multiverse; but be that as it may be he is not the one above all, just because one has a title that says some thing it does not make it true. Marvel has never stated that TOAA is the rulling being of marvel. TOAA exausted his powers as was said, meaning he is not never ending, he is not infinite. Michael and Lucifer together are.

Michael and Lucifer together do not = The Presence in power or knowledge, he created them. The Presence can undo them at any time he wishes.

ditto

They may not equal the presence, but I believe they are stronger then TOAA.

Actually Michael and Lucifer combined might equal or surpass the presence.

It still not proven that Michael and Lucifer combined are equal to The Presence. Although eleveninches stated the issue # but I still havent checked it out. Its also not proven that Lucifer(or Michael) will suceed The Presence since The Presence is already gone and he didnt appoint any successor.

(But the possibility is still there that combined they might surpass the presence, combined they would have power and will.)

Also, TOAA exausted all his powers when he absorbed the Marvel multiverse to recreate it, so TOAA is not infinite.

they both will never surpass the Presence, they are creations of his, he already appointed them both to be the rulers of the DCU, the problem is they both don't really want the job anymore since waiting for eons who would be the next ruler and sorta being lied too (though its for the greater good of YHWH's plan). Michael though died and Lucifer almost died and would have stayed dead if it wasn't for Elaine. God even told them both they WASN'T needed to create everything in Creation, it would have happened anyway and God would have done it.

Also in one of the JLA comic books while Zauriel was talking with 1 of the angels in heaven about becoming a mortal the other angel told him not to get involved with the earth girl like the Archangel Michael did and Michael fell because of a girl from earth, Zauriel didn't want to hear about that story and ignored it. this though is sorta interesting about Michael falling in JLA and whats going on in Lucifer's comic, kinda points maybe whats happening in Lucifer happened in a different time frame. who knows??

is the presence in DC the same in vertgo, if so the presence isn't infinit considering he's dead. I really hate comic book logic somtimes. Their's no such thing as almost infinit, if something can die it's not all powerfull, furthermore if what is being "killed" is spirit where does it "go" just nowere, what a load of crap they try to make us swallow because they don't want to put any time into thinking about the character. Good point Jesse about TOAA not being omnipresent, or omnipotant either. It makes a lot of since considering most of it's other attrubutes do not line up with a supreme creature. Now I can see how michael and lucifer could beat TOAA though I still and leaning on TOAA.

The Presence in Vertigo and DC are the same. he is all knowing all powerful. the Saint of Killer's did NOT kill The Presence, he killed a God in the Preacher comic book that is not connected with the DC/Vertigo Universe.

lucifer and micheal are the presence's SONS, NOT merely his creation like spectar or sumthin, n yes, their combined powers do possibly surpass that of the presence.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence in Vertigo and DC are the same. .

Nope theyre not conclusively. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to it being within the same continuity, especially when those characters dont do the same things in their respective universes. We simply dont know for a fact so we all need to talk from two perspectives when mentioning the character in debates. For example as if they are the same and if theyre just different beings in unrelated creations merely based on the same template.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
n yes, their combined powers do possibly surpass that of the presence.

Based on what Leon? Im thinking this is more unsupported opinion.

Leon......

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer and micheal are the presence's SONS, NOT merely his creation like spectar or sumthin, n yes, their combined powers do possibly surpass that of the presence.

WTF, what logic is that? How could their power surpass that of The Presence while The Presence created them and do to them what they are. They could do the same thing The Presence can (because he allows them), but they can not affect The Presence, if The Presence wouldn't allow them, but The Presence could make them human or put tham out of existence, even if they would combine their power, The Presence would put them easily out of existence, can you understand, look how easily The Presence created Michael and Lucifer, such power, and in the same way he would easily put them out, undone them.
What do you not understand. Lucifer exist because of The Presence, Michael exist because of The Presence, their power exist because of The Presence (so what is the problem, tell me), really what don't you undestand. The only being in DCU, or MU (if in MU is one like The Presence, which it is, but not revealed yet, we are not sure) who is completely undeafeatable, who is the ultimate, it's The Presence. Lucifer goen mad, he is stopped, if Michael gone mad, he would be stopped, if Spectre gone mad he would be stopped, if Michael and Lucifer combined would gone mad, they would be stopped (because there is The Presence), but if The Presence would chose to destroy everyhitng, well, it would be impossbile and he wouldn't and couldn't be stopped.

TOAA is apparently the name this forum gave to Marvel's supreme being.

Supreme = Unbeatable.

Nuff said. No matter how much power you pit against GOD, you lose.

Stupid thread.

DC created all this confusion with the Great Evil Beast = The Presence nonsense.

If there's someone in existance who can match or exceed your power, sorry my friend; you are not the supreme being.

Infinity + Infinity > Supreme Being.

Damn, what's so hard to fathom?

Originally posted by Xplosive
WTF, what logic is that? How could their power surpass that of The Presence while The Presence created them and do to them what they are. They could do the same thing The Presence can (because he allows them), but they can not affect The Presence, if The Presence wouldn't allow them, but The Presence could make them human or put tham out of existence, even if they would combine their power, The Presence would put them easily out of existence, can you understand, look how easily The Presence created Michael and Lucifer, such power, and in the same way he would easily put them out, undone them.
What do you not understand. Lucifer exist because of The Presence, Michael exist because of The Presence, their power exist because of The Presence (so what is the problem, tell me), really what don't you undestand. The only being in DCU, or MU (if in MU is one like The Presence, which it is, but not revealed yet, we are not sure) who is completely undeafeatable, who is the ultimate, it's The Presence. Lucifer goen mad, he is stopped, if Michael gone mad, he would be stopped, if Spectre gone mad he would be stopped, if Michael and Lucifer combined would gone mad, they would be stopped (because there is The Presence), but if The Presence would chose to destroy everyhitng, well, it would be impossbile and he wouldn't and couldn't be stopped.

r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
TOAA is apparently the name this forum gave to Marvel's supreme being.



But that doesnt make sense because TOAA is stated to be LTs master and he hasnt been stated to be the supreme being. As an entity all whats said about TOAA is that he is beyond the IG and Eternity. These days many beings are so that vague coment doesnt make TOAA the supreme being.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But that doesnt make sense because TOAA is stated to be LTs master and he hasnt been stated to be the supreme being. As an entity all whats said about TOAA is that he is beyond the IG and Eternity. These days many beings are so that vague coment doesnt make TOAA the supreme being.

Perhaps he isn't the supreme being.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

If The Presence can be killed he is NOT the supreme being. Besides, that sounds like it's out of continuity.

Let's get to the meat and cheese of the argument people . It is God (or at least what we believe to be god) against two unbelievably powerful archangels. We all know who i'm siding with.......

Originally posted by grey fox
Let's get to the meat and cheese of the argument people . It is God (or at least what we believe to be god) against two unbelievably powerful archangels. We all know who i'm siding with.......

If he is God, he will not lose. Not to anyone. Not even the GEB. That's kinda the definition of the term 'Supreme Being.'

I know , this is whats causing so much confusion about wether or not the being in Vertigo's 'Preacher' was God.....

rock on cosmic cube, logic would suggest that a supreme being can't be defeated or he is not the supream being.

that's right grey fox

Originally posted by leonheartmm
r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

Swamp exist because of The Presence, The Presence allowed that to Swamp. Lucifer own his universe, The Presence could easily delete that multiverse, but it chose not to.
The Presence is God, Yahweh, everyone exist beacuse of him, everyone, also Swamp and any other power. He cannot be hurt, he cannot be killed and he cannot be touched, if he doesn't allow it.
He can collapse our multiverse nad Lucier multiverse, he is the supreme of everthing, the void which Lucifer used to create Multiverse with Michale help, well guess, that void is also because of The Presence. Lucifer Multiverse also exist beacuse of The Presence (because Lucifer was created by The Presence).

Originally posted by Xplosive
Swamp exist because of The Presence, The Presence allowed that to Swamp. Lucifer own his universe, The Presence could easily delete that multiverse, but it chose not to.
The Presence is God, Yahweh, everyone exist beacuse of him, everyone, also Swamp and any other power. He cannot be hurt, he cannot be killed and he cannot be touched, if he doesn';t allow it.


the presence TRIED, but failed with lucifer, he got his own creation AGAINST the will of the presence as EXPLICITLY stated by micheal, n lucifer himself. n the swamp thing did almost kill the presence, n the presence cudnt stop it either. TGEB is also equal to the presence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the presence TRIED, but failed with lucifer, he got his own creation AGAINST the will of the presence as EXPLICITLY stated by micheal, n lucifer himself. n the swamp thing did almost kill the presence, n the presence cudnt stop it either. TGEB is also equal to the presence.

If the Presence TRIED to do something and FAILED he is NOT the SUPREME BEING, and he is NOT OMNIPOTENT.

This is logic, folks. No frills.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope theyre not conclusively. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to it being within the same continuity, especially when those characters dont do the same things in their respective universes. We simply dont know for a fact so we all need to talk from two perspectives when mentioning the character in debates. For example as if they are the same and if theyre just different beings in unrelated creations merely based on the same template.

We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
If the Presence TRIED to do something and FAILED he is NOT the SUPREME BEING, and he is NOT OMNIPOTENT.

This is logic, folks. No frills.


yes it is, the presence+ micheal/lucifer/elaine/jesus+the great evil beast+the endless might be considered the entire power of DC/VERTIGO, because they are unique n seperate in one way or another n its still hazy to what the exact origins are. also there is the problem of lucifer himself sayin that there is an infinite number or cycle of gods above the presence that was beyond even his comprehension so nuthin much can be said, only their feats can be taken n compared to other powers.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes it is, the presence+ micheal/lucifer/elaine/jesus+the great evil beast+the endless might be considered the entire power of DC/VERTIGO, because they are unique n seperate in one way or another n its still hazy to what the exact origins are. also there is the problem of lucifer himself sayin that there is an infinite number or cycle of gods above the presence that was beyond even his comprehension so nuthin much can be said, only their feats can be taken n compared to other powers.

And the Presence is not the Supreme Being. Simple as that.

Wait... Jesus is in DC COMICS!?

Originally posted by kevdude
We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.

My previous post still stands. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to the two labels being of the same continuity. Especially not when those characters go through different events, events of such a scale that they should show up simultaneously in both labels or be referred in the opposing label (Infinite Crisis, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Yahweh leaving creation) but dont.

You need to understand that you have nothing on panel or any writers statements that conclusively show that theyre both of the same continuity. With that in mind its just your opinion. Dont present it as anything but that. Until you have proof theyre very much seperate for debating purposes, unless a threadmaker states at the beginning that they would like debating to occur from the perspective that theyre both of the same continuity.

Originally posted by kevdude
We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.


ur right about the first part, dc/vertigo r the same. but the second part is weak speculation, because after all, micheal is the strongest agent of the presence, at this point i dont think we can afford speculatin cause we know that leads to baseless arguments, what we have seen is there n it should be interpreted in the simplest way there is, lucifer fell from heaven BECAUSE he went again the presence's master plan, the presence "wud not ALLOW another creation" as stated by micheal to lucifer, n lucifer himself said that the presence's jurisdiction ended there n micheal was talkin nonesence, "all beyond it is MINE" n "ive gone in the GOD business micheal" also "this is the end of tyranny" n micheal also said that lucifer wud have surely taken precaution to safequard his plan after sayin that the presence wudnt allow another creation, which in its simlpest terms, means that lucifer DID take precautions to guard against the presence. if u interpret it simply like the writers intended, its easy, if u try to bring out hidden logic that only u can see n that also supports ur argument than the argument will go nowhere cause EVERYone can do that. the presence isnt infalliable, it fought a war against lucifer n had to give up part of the multiverse as HELL for lucifer who reigned over it{reguardless of this sutin the presence's purposes later} dont forget, that against lucifer and the entire turned angelic host it was full out WAR. n another thing, the presence also left creation n came back WEAKENED, meanin its not infalliable. also there is the thing with it beein almost killed by swamp thing, n there beein an infinite number or cycle of gods above it. not to mention TGEB who is said to be the presence's equal

Lucifer making his creation against the will of the Presence isnt evidence of him being comparable in power to Presence. It just means he rebelled against his father. Please dont suggest such things Leon.

For when Yahweh left his creation everything fell apart and it was beyond Lucifers power to fix.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
And the Presence is not the Supreme Being. Simple as that.

Wait... Jesus is in DC COMICS!?

yup thas where the spirit of destiny came from, the warrior longinus killed jesus with his spear while he was crucified, n thas why the spear has such amazing powers, cause it killed the son of god{supposedly, he wasnt exactly shown to be as powerful or significant as lucifer/micheal who r considered the real sons of god}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yup thas where the spirit of destiny came from, the warrior longinus killed jesus with his spear while he was crucified, n thas why the spear has such amazing powers, cause it killed the son of god{supposedly, he wasnt exactly shown to be as powerful or significant as lucifer/micheal who r considered the real sons of god}

This is just blasphemous. Really it is. Whoever writes these comics will burn in hell.

Jesus isn't supposed to be a comic book character!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yup thas where the spirit of destiny came from, the warrior longinus killed jesus with his spear while he was crucified, n thas why the spear has such amazing powers, cause it killed the son of god{supposedly, he wasnt exactly shown to be as powerful or significant as lucifer/micheal who r considered the real sons of god}

Thats because Jesus was literally God unlike Lucifer or Michael who are created to be Gods successors. Jesus is Gods son aspect just like Presence is the father aspect.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats because Jesus was literally God unlike Lucifer or Michael who are created to be Gods successors. Jesus is Gods son aspect just like Presence is the father aspect.

It's still blasphemous. There are angels that are more powerful than the thrid person of God! In these comics, 'God' has an equal! That is 100% against the Bible.

This is the #1 reason why comics shouldn't intertwine with religion.

Shame on you DC Comics, and an eternity of purgatory.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Lucifer making his creation against the will of the Presence isnt evidence of him being comparable in power to Presence. It just means he rebelled against his father. Please dont suggest such things Leon.

For when Yahweh left his creation everything fell apart and it was beyond Lucifers power to fix.

do not pretend to tell me wat to or not to do, u basically go against everythin i have to say just for the heck of it, yes it doesnt MEAN that he is more powerful than the presence, n if u had gone through wat i said with the same thouroughnesss as u go through some pheonix feats u wud realize that i never SAID that it did, all i was saying was that the presence is not INFALLIABLE and ALL powerful in dc, ofcourse its more powerful than lucifer but its not complete power which some peopel here beleieve to be the case. and yes when yahweh left creation things did indeed fall apart but there is ALSO no evidence of suggestin that lucifer cud not handle it, for one thing, lucifer never really tried, he had after all no real interest in that creation, it wasnt shown that lucifer ever stroggled to hold things together, so thas void, this is further proven by the fact that lucifer was half the power behind the first creation, n also, he DID manage his OWN creation quite well singlehandedly without the will of the presence, infact he managed it just as good as the presence without any help., so theres really no argument backing up the fact that lucifer cudnt handle this creation, stop arguing with me just for the heck of it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats because Jesus was literally God unlike Lucifer or Michael who are created to be Gods successors. Jesus is Gods son aspect just like Presence is the father aspect.


its also not shown that jesus WAS god, after all he DID die, at the hands of humans too, he wasnt really on the angelic significance or status.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
do not pretend to tell me wat to or not to do, u basically go against everythin i have to say just for the heck of it, yes it doesnt MEAN that he is more powerful than the presence, n if u had gone through wat i said with the same thouroughnesss as u go through some pheonix feats u wud realize that i never SAID that it did, all i was saying was that the presence is not INFALLIABLE and ALL powerful in dc, ofcourse its more powerful than lucifer but its not complete power which some peopel here beleieve to be the case. and yes when yahweh left creation things did indeed fall apart but there is ALSO no evidence of suggestin that lucifer cud not handle it, for one thing, lucifer never really tried, he had after all no real interest in that creation, it wasnt shown that lucifer ever stroggled to hold things together, so thas void, this is further proven by the fact that lucifer was half the power behind the first creation, n also, he DID manage his OWN creation quite well singlehandedly without the will of the presence, infact he managed it just as good as the presence without any help., so theres really no argument backing up the fact that lucifer cudnt handle this creation, stop arguing with me just for the heck of it.

Man has free will. We can go against the will of God. It's called sin.

leonheartmm your assuming that the bible,relegion,and other aspects relating to that are true.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
It's still blasphemous. There are angels that are more powerful than the thrid person of God! In these comics, 'God' has an equal! That is 100% against the Bible.

This is the #1 reason why comics shouldn't intertwine with religion.

Shame on you DC Comics, and an eternity of purgatory.


for YOUR sake, i hope ur bein sarcastic.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its also not shown that jesus WAS god, after all he DID die, at the hands of humans too, he wasnt really on the angelic significance or status.

Jesus GAVE his life. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

No one killed him.

This is sad.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
for YOUR sake, i hope ur bein sarcastic.

Why would I be?

Originally posted by Mordum
leonheartmm your assuming that the bible,relegion,and other aspects relating to that are true.


no im not, where did those come from, im only lookin at what ive seen in vertigo.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no im not, where did those come from, im only lookin at what ive seen in vertigo.

As far as I'm concerned, Vertigo is going to hell. They're twisting Christianity for personal profit. Whether your religious or not, that is blatantly morally wrong.

Originally posted by Mordum
leonheartmm your assuming that the bible,relegion,and other aspects relating to that are true.
And you're implying that the comics are more tentative.

I'm about to swear off comic books forever.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Jesus GAVE his life. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

No one killed him.

This is sad.

erm, this is vertigo were talkin about NOT the real world, n this is off topic but u do realize that its the FAITH that tells u this n noth the real world, jesus died, almost starved, thirsty, with loss of blood n pain, in the end he was killed{if he hadnt already died} from the spear that longinus plunged in his ribs to make sure, there nuthin to suggest that no man killed him, its just ur faith sayin it, just like muslims believe that jesus didnt die at all, but it was another man who looked like him that god sacrificed n jesus was raised up fro the earth to the heavens by god himself{as a messnger n not a son} before the guy who looked like him was falsely crusified. u dont believe in that, its all just faith tellin u.

God/The Presence is the top, nobody else is above him. God never tried to stop Lucifer making his own creation, why are ppl saying this???

As i have said before the realm where the Silver City is at is not in the same time period as the regular creation, in JLA 1 of the angels was talking with Zauriel bout Michael leaving Heaven because of a earth girl and also warned him that Michael is no longer in Heaven. Zauriel didn't want to hear about the story and still wanted to become mortal (because he liked a earth girl). this of course is just an opinion but however they seem to have the same history.

The Presence has only left creation just in 2003, he at this point hasn't returned yet! Lucifer has been trying to get away from Gods plan and God himself in #40 told Lucifer he was wasting his time trying to get away from the plan because everything Lucifer was doing is already thought of by God and was already planned out thousands of times. Preacher isn't connected to DC/Vertigo Universe.

Michael still said that neverless everything Michael/Lucifer make is Gods.
There has only been 1 equal to The Presence and that is TGEB.

Jesus/The Word is God in the flesh, as seen in Swamp Thing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, this is vertigo were talkin about NOT the real world, n this is off topic but u do realize that its the FAITH that tells u this n noth the real world, jesus died, almost starved, thirsty, with loss of blood n pain, in the end he was killed{if he hadnt already died} from the spear that longinus plunged in his ribs to make sure, there nuthin to suggest that no man killed him, its just ur faith sayin it, just like muslims believe that jesus didnt die at all, but it was another man who looked like him that god sacrificed n jesus was raised up fro the earth to the heavens by god himself{as a messnger n not a son} before the guy who looked like him was falsely crusified. u dont believe in that, its all just faith tellin u.

Vertigo shouldn't use a twisted version of Christianity in their comics. They're like the anti-christ. Don't compare them to the Muslim or Jewish faiths. They are totally different. Vertigo's sole motive is profit. In Vertigo, Jesus is a person of God, but less powerful than angels? NONE of the three faiths place angels at a higher role than a person of God. None of them believe in an entity that is equal to God. Religion has no place in comics. Plain and simple. It's blasphemy, and it's morally wrong.

The argument was over long ago. If TOAA is the supreme being, he will win.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
do not pretend to tell me wat to or not to do, u basically go against everythin i have to say just for the heck of it, yes it doesnt MEAN that he is more powerful than the presence, n if u had gone through wat i said with the same thouroughnesss as u go through some pheonix feats u wud realize that i never SAID that it did, all i was saying was that the presence is not INFALLIABLE and ALL powerful in dc, ofcourse its more powerful than lucifer but its not complete power which some peopel here beleieve to be the case. and yes when yahweh left creation things did indeed fall apart but there is ALSO no evidence of suggestin that lucifer cud not handle it, for one thing, lucifer never really tried, he had after all no real interest in that creation, it wasnt shown that lucifer ever stroggled to hold things together, so thas void, this is further proven by the fact that lucifer was half the power behind the first creation, n also, he DID manage his OWN creation quite well singlehandedly without the will of the presence, infact he managed it just as good as the presence without any help., so theres really no argument backing up the fact that lucifer cudnt handle this creation, stop arguing with me just for the heck of it.

Leon you are so deluded. I have no personal vendetta against you. Have you thought that i might always post against you because more often than not the info in your posts is false

All your posts are just speculation, assumptions, your opinion basically on how you think things should be. Theres not any fact in the above.

At the end of the day all creation was threatened and Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. Even his own creation was threatened and yet Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. If he couldve he wouldve. He never.

Lucifers power went on a downward spiral when Presence left creation yet you feel that potentially he equates to his father?

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/7852/lucifer42p226pg.th.jpg

On top of that Lucifers power never fueled half of creation. His power wasnt necessary as stated by Yahweh himself. Neither of the brothers were necessary. Yahweh said his creation wouldve formed itself, he merely allowed the brothers to take part as HE made creation just so that they could learn and have practice in how to use their powers in preparation for when Yahweh would choose one of them to be his successor. Yahweh did all the work. They were his assistants.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4229/lucifer39p096pk.th.jpg

To support that heres Lucifer while shaping his own creation saying how he'd never made a universe before:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/2232/lucifer16p047yk.th.jpg

Your whole understanding behind the brothers, their role and what theyre responsible for is flawed. Stop presenting your opinion as fact. Especially when your opinion is based on such a mess of an understanding.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its also not shown that jesus WAS god, after all he DID die, at the hands of humans too, he wasnt really on the angelic significance or status.

The whole point of Jesus was to die for mans sins. That was the whole point Leon, what on earth are you on about? LOL

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Vertigo shouldn't use a twisted version of Christianity in their comics. They're like the anti-christ. Don't compare them to the Muslim or Jewish faiths. They are totally different. Vertigo's sole motive is profit. In Vertigo, Jesus is a person of God, but less powerful than angels? NONE of the three faiths place angels at a higher role than a person of God. None of them believe in an entity that is equal to God. Religion has no place in comics. Plain and simple. It's blasphemy, and it's morally wrong.

The argument was over long ago. If TOAA is the supreme being, he will win.


actually, supposedly, in relegions other than christianity{specially islam} its only the role of prophets thas greater, NOT their power, gabrielle was said to be more powerful tha any prophet, so was mikhail, azreal, n israfeel{pronounciation in arabic} , the prophets were said to be men who died{n yea, jesus is also not accepted by other faiths as the son of god or anythin compareable}, those angels are far stronger than any prophet, anyway, after seein how much moral WRONG, the relegious scholars/leaders/devout followers do im not really inclined to say anythin against vertigo cause what vertogi is doin doesnt even come close to comparin to them n the relegion itself, n i think its partially the desire to open up the flawed logic of a loving god etc, that vertigo made lucifer the good guy n god not the stereotypical lovely being but a flawed tyrant. plus vertigo comics r the best non manga comics currently.

Tell me, GS, do you think these comics are blasphemous?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Tell me, GS, do you think these comics are blasphemous?

I dont take it that seriously as its just fiction and its not trying to present itself as an accurate representation. But i guess technically they are.

BTW as ive just highlighted above Leonhs knowledge on the subject matter is awful. Trust me. Please dont base your views of the comics on what Leon posts

Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually, supposedly, in relegions other than christianity{specially islam} its only the role of prophets thas greater, NOT their power, gabrielle was said to be more powerful tha any prophet, so was mikhail, azreal, n israfeel{pronounciation in arabic} , the prophets were said to be men who died{n yea, jesus is also not accepted by other faiths as the son of god or anythin compareable}, those angels are far stronger than any prophet, anyway, after seein how much moral WRONG, the relegious scholars/leaders/devout followers do im not really inclined to say anythin against vertigo cause what vertogi is doin doesnt even come close to comparin to them n the relegion itself, n i think its partially the desire to open up the flawed logic of a loving god etc, that vertigo made lucifer the good guy n god not the stereotypical lovely being but a flawed tyrant. plus vertigo comics r the best non manga comics currently.

Once again, you are comparing vertigo to the Islamic belief. In these comics, Jesus is admittedly a person of God, unlike the Islamic religion. Yet, he has superiors. Completely different.
Angels have no power over men that is not given to them by God, other than the power of persuasion. Niether do demons, or Satan himself (who is Lucifer.)

What moral wrong do religious scholars do that other men do not? All have sinned. Are you reffering to the crusades, or something?

Making God appear to a flawed tyrant is logically sound and morally right!?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont take it that seriously as its just fiction and its not trying to present itself as an accurate representation. But i guess technically they are.

BTW as ive just highlighted above Leonhs knowledge on the subject matter is awful. Trust me. Please dont base your views of the comics on what Leon posts

K. I just think that the powers of persuasion are pretty bad natured. Bordering on Satanism.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
It's still blasphemous. There are angels that are more powerful than the thrid person of God! In these comics, 'God' has an equal! That is 100% against the Bible.

This is the #1 reason why comics shouldn't intertwine with religion.

Shame on you DC Comics, and an eternity of purgatory.

No, there isn't his equal, not even close. If The Presence would chose to elmitna everyhitng, he would it with extreme ease and could wipe all of DCU out of existence without problem.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, there isn't his equal, not even close. If The Presence would chose to elmitna everyhitng, he would it with extreme ease and could wipe all of DCU out of existence without problem.

The Great and Evil Beast is his equal, remember?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
This is just blasphemous. Really it is. Whoever writes these comics will burn in hell.

Jesus isn't supposed to be a comic book character!

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7928/avengelyneglorygodyssey01026ed.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7554/avengelyneglorygodyssey01039bn.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3241/avengelyneglorygodyssey01046mb.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3501/avengelyneglorygodyssey010506e.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9239/avengelyneglorygodyssey01072sh.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/702/avengelyneglorygodyssey01084jt.th.jpg

LMAO

Well, as expressed in this thread, the Presence is not the most powerful being in existance, therefore, he is not the Supreme Being. Saying otherwise is beyond logic.

leaves the comics to fiction and do not compare them to real life whoever that jesus in comics is is not the real life Jesus and thus shouldnt even be compared.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7928/avengelyneglorygodyssey01026ed.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7554/avengelyneglorygodyssey01039bn.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3241/avengelyneglorygodyssey01046mb.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3501/avengelyneglorygodyssey010506e.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9239/avengelyneglorygodyssey01072sh.th.jpg

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/702/avengelyneglorygodyssey01084jt.th.jpg

LMAO

Hell.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
The Great Evil Beast is his equal, remember?

No, he is not. The Great Evil Beast was thrown down, and he was thrown down by The Presence, so TGEB is not The Presence equal, no one is.

Originally posted by Mider
leaves the comics to fiction and do not compare them to real life whoever that jesus in comics is is not the real life Jesus and thus shouldnt even be compared.

I know that. But if you're going to use religion in a comic book, at least be accurate. If you don't, you're bound to offend someone. Using Jesus's name and likeness in a comic book that falsely depicts him is disrespectful.

It would be like someone deciding to use your name and likeness in their comic book, but instead, they decide make you a crossdresser, and your mother's a transvestite. Only in this case, it's infinitely worse. Disrespectful.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No, he is not. The Great Evil Beast was thrown down, and he was thrown down by The Presence, so TGEB is not The Presence equal, no one is. Put yourself on a bull-horn. Prove it. Everyone on this forum believes the opposite.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LMAO Sad thing is Jesus didn't even look like that.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Sad thing is Jesus didn't even look like that.

I know. I just try not to take things like this too personally otherwise in a society like we live in today i wouldnt be able to read a newspaper, watch tv or leave my house without being offended.

Just stay true to what you believe in and offer guidance to those you see faltering, but try not to get worked up over something as insignificant as this poor comic. Thats what i try to do anyway. Sorry got a bit carried away there LOL

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know. I just try not to take things like this too personally otherwise in a society like we live in today i wouldnt be able to read a newspaper, watch tv or leave my house without being offended.

Just stay true to what you believe in and offer guidance to those you see faltering, but try not to get worked up over something as insignificant as this poor comic. Thats what i try to do anyway. Sorry got a bit carried away there LOL

Is Jesus kickboxing in those scans?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Is Jesus kickboxing in those scans?

He takes on the Greek pantheon and floors them with his martial arts prowess LOL

Click on the images.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He takes on the Greek pantheon and floors them with his martial arts prowess LOL

So Jesus knows martial arts, huh? I guess he should, being God, and all. So much for being a pacifist.

This is just wrong.

he didnt even use any of his powers , took Zeus out ez

Originally posted by kevdude
he didnt even use any of his powers , took Zeus out ez

Still, it's wrong. Jesus would never kick someone in the face.

Question: Is Lucifer the Satan?

yeah i know he wouldn't do that.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Question: Is Lucifer the Satan?

No. I dont believe so.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No. I dont believe so.

So he isn't a fallen angel (demon)?

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
So he isn't a fallen angel?

He is a fallen angel but he doesnt have the same role as the Biblical Satan.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is a fallen angel but he doesnt have the same role as the Biblical Satan.
Understood.

The First of the Fallen is Satan, Lucifer is a fallen angel.

GS i've seen those pics before and I couldn't stop laffing. is lienfield a christain? I expeshaly like how "jesus" took out herc with one hit.

Originally posted by jasofisc
GS i've seen those pics before and I couldn't stop laffing. is lienfield a christain? I expeshaly like how "jesus" took out herc with one hit.

I know. Its the funniest scene ive ever seen in a comic. It had me crying the first time i saw it. Its ridiculous lol. I dont have a clue about about Leinfields beliefs but id be surprised if he wasnt an atheist lol.

lol, Jesus kicking the crap out of Greek Gods is the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a Family Guy flashback or something. Awesome.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Leon you are so deluded. I have no personal vendetta against you. Have you thought that i might always post against you because more often than not the info in your posts is false

All your posts are just speculation, assumptions, your opinion basically on how you think things should be. Theres not any fact in the above.

At the end of the day all creation was threatened and Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. Even his own creation was threatened and yet Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. If he couldve he wouldve. He never.

Lucifers power went on a downward spiral when Presence left creation yet you feel that potentially he equates to his father?

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/7852/lucifer42p226pg.th.jpg

On top of that Lucifers power never fueled half of creation. His power wasnt necessary as stated by Yahweh himself. Neither of the brothers were necessary. Yahweh said his creation wouldve formed itself, he merely allowed the brothers to take part as HE made creation just so that they could learn and have practice in how to use their powers in preparation for when Yahweh would choose one of them to be his successor. Yahweh did all the work. They were his assistants.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4229/lucifer39p096pk.th.jpg

To support that heres Lucifer while shaping his own creation saying how he'd never made a universe before:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/2232/lucifer16p047yk.th.jpg

Your whole understanding behind the brothers, their role and what theyre responsible for is flawed. Stop presenting your opinion as fact. Especially when your opinion is based on such a mess of an understanding.


its quite fast that u turn from silently denying posts to blatantly putting up FALSE, facts n denyin FACTS that ive given, ive given exact statement from the comics, not speculations, n only u deny them for their validity, other peope just argue behind the PURPOSE of the said thing. but u say its false, even if said in comics, not even pis or high end feats or anythin, just ridiculously denyin wats stated n quoted directly FROM the comics n covering it up with a long essay n hopin that sooner or later the person will give up n wont reply n ull be credited the winner, thas extremely cheap gs. and well for once, i will answer ur long ass n silly post



"At the end of the day all creation was threatened and Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. Even his own creation was threatened and yet Lucifer couldnt do a thing about it. If he couldve he wouldve. He never."

beings like lucifer have been known to show no interest in mere things like creation, the dude got bored of being king of hell if u havent forgotten. ONE creation wwas threatened n it doesnt show that lucifer cudnt do anythin about it, if lucifer WAS shown being there n being unable to cope with anythin than ur statement wud be correct but he wasnt, this creation does not matter to him n thas a fact that cant be denied, it serves him no purpose watsoever, n he wudnt be worried about it. there is also , ABSOLUTELY nuthing to show that lucifer's own creation was threatened, not even a quote refering ot it, not a single one. lucifer's creation as stated bu himself n micheal was beyond the presence's n presence had no power over it as ive previously proven by quotes, it was lucifer's n the presence had no jurisdiction over it, lucifer was QUITE capable of controllinghis own creation outside god's without help so theres no argument that he wudnt be able to control or stop from crumbling god's creation, both creation are equal as has been shown.



"Lucifers power went on a downward spiral when Presence left creation yet you feel that potentially he equates to his father? "

i never said they were equal, just that the presence wasnt infalliable, i told u that in the previous post n u wudnt repeat it unless u had personal reasons, oh n btw, this next statement of urs kinda refutes the one above

"he merely allowed the brothers to take part as HE made creation just so that they could learn and have practice in how to use their powers in preparation for " the bracketed parts sorta DO give the impression that EITHER one of them cud compare.




"On top of that Lucifers power never fueled half of creation. His power wasnt necessary as stated by Yahweh himself. Neither of the brothers were necessary. Yahweh said his creation wouldve formed itself, he merely allowed the brothers to take part as HE made creation just so that they could learn and have practice in how to use their powers in preparation for when Yahweh would choose one of them to be his successor. Yahweh did all the work. They were his assistants."

nowhere has it been shown that yahweh did ANY work, nor that neither of the brothers were unnecessary, or that YAHWEH made creation, and SPECIALLY not that it was SUPPOSED to be practice for them, that is extremely far fetched ideas that have no base in comic dom, nuthin like that has been said. i am NOT aware of yahweh sayin that creation wudv formed itself{if i am than please give me scans of yahweh SAYING}
n NOWHERE is it even vaguely applied that they were his ASSISTANTS!





"To support that heres Lucifer while shaping his own creation saying how he'd never made a universe before:"

yes he never had made an entire universe/multiverse by HIMSELF, he had micheal to HELP him, this was his first shot being only HIMSELF. n even IF we go by ur wrong ASSISTANT way of thinking, lucifer wudnt have said that it was his FIRST shot, n be as unaware as he was shown, i mean after all, assistants observe/participate in/have training,


"Your whole understanding behind the brothers, their role and what theyre responsible for is flawed. Stop presenting your opinion as fact. Especially when your opinion is based on such a mess of an understanding"

it seems that it is UR understanding that is inherently flawed n i only stated FACTS, n told the simplest n easiest way to interpret them. ur smeer campain just shows ur true self.

{had to sleep, thas y i cudnt post srry}

Leon, GS is correct about everything, they never made a creation (well not The Presence's creation anyway), they merely guided it so it would become the creation it is today, and was told how to do that in Lucifer #39-40. The Presence didn't need them at all, everything would have happened anyway. the reason Lucifer and Michael was created was to take Gods place someday, there is only 3 beings that could of taken Gods place, Lucifer,Michael and Elaine, anyone else really wouldn't be what God intended but it would still come out the same way.

In the 2nd pic GS put up it is Yahweh/The Presence talking to Michael and Lucifer both. God told Eliane that she might become Him someday.

Originally posted by kevdude
Leon, GS is correct about everything, they never made a creation (well not The Presence's creation anyway), they merely guided it so it would become the creation it is today, and was told how to do that in Lucifer #39-40. The Presence didn't need them at all, everything would have happened anyway. the reason Lucifer and Michael was created was to take Gods place someday, there is only 3 beings that could of taken Gods place, Lucifer,Michael and Elaine, anyone else really wouldn't be what God intended but it would still come out the same way.

In the 2nd pic GS put up it is Yahweh/The Presence talking to Michael and Lucifer both. God told Eliane that she might become Him someday.


your making the same argument gs is n not doin a much better job, ive addressed exactly these points in my post, read it{oh n yea btw even though i never said lucifer was compaeable to the presence n gs said it to make me look bad, if ur part of the story is true, WUDNT that mean that lucifer infact IS compareable to god seein as he might BE the next god and always was made as a SUCCESOR in the mind of god, wudnt that prove GS's argument of lucifer being yahweh's CREATION n thus always being significantly underneath him, completely WRONG?}

At the end of the day Leon the facts are up there. You have provided no on panel evidence be it quotes or scans. You've just posted your interpretation of events in comics, your opinion on how you think things are. In face of whats stated in the scans clear as day your opinion just doesnt cut it.

As stated clearly in the scans Lucifer and Michael were unneccessary. Yahweh states that in the scans, he says he didnt need them, that creation would've have formed without them. Yahwehs power made them and creation possible, he just allowed them to take part in the making of creation as a way of teaching them how to use their god given power. It was an exercise to prepare them for the future where they would possibly take over from him if he stepped down, however readers of Lucifer have seen that the brothers never lived up to their potential and creation was passed over to Elaine instead. Lucifer and Michael never created the DC/Vertigo creation as stated they aided Yahweh in doing so.

Supporting that you have Lucifer while shaping his own creation saying not only that he had never made a universe before, but that last time round he merely watched as it was done. Its all stated its really not debatable. Sorry mate.

Oh and in the end Lucifers creation was also threatened Leon. And there was not a thing he could do about it.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7552/lucifer53p084we.th.jpg

He tried to stop Fenris plans because they threatened not only Yahwehs creation but also his own but in the end he got mind raped, he attacked his brother instead of fighting Fenris and he and his brother failed:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/6378/lucifer54p133bx.th.jpg

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1552/lucifer61p107gv.th.jpg

In the end all creations were threatened:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5678/lucifer64p170lm.th.jpg

For someone who is beyond a mere universe who is i quote "known to show no interest in mere things like creation" not only do my scans show him looking awfully concerned, but he also tries to put a stop to the end of creation and he fails. And all of this because the brothers powers are derived from Yahweh and without him they arent the forces they would otherwise be.

Oh and your poor attempt to explain Lucifers comments about not making a universe is moot. Lucifers creation was a joint effort between him and Michael as well so trying to say he meant that he'd never made a universe on his own before still doesnt cut it. What it means is that Yahwehs creation was formed by Yahweh and the brothers assisted him. Lucifer even says first time around he merely watched as all the work was done. Its all there on panel. I suggest you have another read because either youre suffering from fanboy delusions or the comic is way over waaaay over your head.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
your making the same argument gs is n not doin a much better job, ive addressed exactly these points in my post, read it{oh n yea btw even though i never said lucifer was compaeable to the presence n gs said it to make me look bad, if ur part of the story is true, WUDNT that mean that lucifer infact IS compareable to god seein as he might BE the next god and always was made as a SUCCESOR in the mind of god, wudnt that prove GS's argument of lucifer being yahweh's CREATION n thus always being significantly underneath him, completely WRONG?}

No it doesnt Leon because to reach that potential they would have had to have sat on the Primum mobile and accepted their birthrights. Yahweh wouldve then relinquished his position as supreme being to them. However in the end it was Elaine who accepted her birthright and so Yahweh chose to pass on his power and position to her.

As it stands Lucifer and Michael are creations of god, his most special ones who were created to potentially be his successors. However for them to be on par with God they wouldve had to have sat on the Primum mobile after God had stepped down and accepted their birthright and all the responsibilities being God entails. At that moment Yahweh wouldve passed on all his power and position to the one who did that. Lucifer or Michael never did this, Elaine did it in the end. Without having done this they are now and forever will be second to God. Yes they were created to be his successors however that ritual was required for them to reach that potential. They never had that power from the offset. Now they never will have such power because Elaine is now the supreme being and the Lucifer series (now at #70) finishes at #75

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day Leon the facts are up there. You have provided no on panel evidence be it quotes or scans. You've just posted your interpretation of events in comics, your opinion on how you think things are. In face of whats stated in the scans clear as day your opinion just doesnt cut it.

As stated clearly in the scans Lucifer and Michael were unneccessary. Yahweh states that in the scans, he says he didnt need them, that creation would've have formed without them. Yahwehs power made them and creation possible, he just allowed them to take part in the making of creation as a way of teaching them how to use their god given power. It was an exercise to prepare them for the future where they would possibly take over from him if he stepped down, however readers of Lucifer have seen that the brothers never lived up to their potential and creation was passed over to Elaine instead. Lucifer and Michael never created the DC/Vertigo creation as stated they aided Yahweh in doing so.

Supporting that you have Lucifer while shaping his own creation saying not only that he had never made a universe before, but that last time round he merely watched as it was done. Its all stated its really not debatable. Sorry mate.

Oh and in the end Lucifers creation was also threatened Leon. And there was not a thing he could do about it.


He tried to stop Fenris plans because they threatened not only Yahwehs creation but also his own but in the end he got mind raped, he attacked his brother instead of fighting Fenris and he and his brother failed:


For someone who is beyond a mere universe who is i quote "known to show no interest in mere things like creation" not only do my scans show him looking awfully concerned, but he also tries to put a stop to the end of creation and he fails. And all of this because the brothers powers are derived from Yahweh and without him they arent the forces they would otherwise be.

Oh and your poor attempt to explain Lucifers comments about not making a universe is moot. Lucifers creation was a joint effort between him and Michael as well so trying to say he meant that he'd never made a universe on his own before still doesnt cut it. What it means is that Yahwehs creation was formed by Yahweh and the brothers assisted him. Lucifer even says first time around he merely watched as all the work was done. Its all there on panel. I suggest you have another read because either youre suffering from fanboy delusions or the comic is way over waaaay over your head.

Excatly, God only allowed them to create our multiverse to teach them using their powers, which God gave them, but he could have done by himself easily. Brothers created Multiverse, where God rules, still God has the power over everything (even though brothes created it, partailly). That automatocly means, when Lucifer himself created his own Universe (also with brother help, when Micheal died), that immediately mean that The Presence has the power over his craetion also. If he would chose to destroy Lucifer Multiverse, he would do it easily.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
never will have such power because Elaine is now the supreme being and the Lucifer series (now at #70) finishes at #75

And where is Yahweh now?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Excatly, God only allowed them to create our multiverse to teach them using their powers, which God gave them, but he could have done by himself easily. Brothers created Multiverse, where God rules, still God has the power over everything (even though brothes created it, partailly). That automatocly means, when Lucifer himself created his own Universe (also with brother help, when Micheal died), that immediately mean that The Presence has the power over his craetion also. If he would chose to destroy Lucifer Multiverse, he would do it easily.



And where is Yahweh now? He gave it to Elaine a couple issues ago, and walked off.
lol.

well Michael and Lucifer could have saved the universe's if they wanted, Michael didn't care until Lucifer got him to care more and then he was taking steps to save creation without him or Lucifer sitting on the Throne. Lucifer could have sat on the Throne many times to save the universe's but he didn't because he didn't care to save his fathers creation, he only cared when it was his creation threatened, and he did everything to make sure Elaine would take his place at the Throne.

God is outside Creation.

Michael and Lucifer together make God's total power, demiurge and will, Max at full potential has both, God's total power, not just to create but destroy or whatever else he wishes.

Lucifer and Michael were created to be Yahwehs successors. At full potential they would be the supreme beings just like Elaine has become recently in the Lucifer series. The brothers win.

For what I understand Michael and Lucifer didn't merely create a universe they created Creation itself...or am I wrong...

The brothers will reach full potential by taking on the mantle of supreme being. Its their destiny or at least it was prior to Elaine. (Michaels daughter) Only one of them was going to become the supreme being and helping God make creation was just a lesson for them, preparation for that role. In Lucifer 39 we found out that God had initially chosen Lucifer for the role.

The Forum Vs. Rules states that in battles characters are at their full potential and blood lusted, thus Michael and Lucifer are at their full potential by taking up the mantle of the supreme being. Elaine (Michael's Daughter) surpasses both of them at the momment, she at the momment has taken the role of the pressence to what I understand; but if Michael and Lucifer were combined into one and took up the mantle, they might surpass everything that has ever been shown or will be shown in Vertigo Comics.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Excatly, God only allowed them to create our multiverse to teach them using their powers, which God gave them, but he could have done by himself easily. Brothers created Multiverse, where God rules, still God has the power over everything (even though brothes created it, partailly). That automatocly means, when Lucifer himself created his own Universe (also with brother help, when Micheal died), that immediately mean that The Presence has the power over his craetion also. If he would chose to destroy Lucifer Multiverse, he would do it easily.



And where is Yahweh now?

Im so drunk right now so whatever i say now might be completely different tp what i say 2morrow. God allowed them to participate in the creation of the univefse. Thats all. The multiverse wasnt created by god that was an after effect. It was created by Krona in Crisis on Infinitr eaths.

Oh **** it it. U lot are sober right now. Have some f*cking common sense and read what ivev posted b4, look at all the comics ive referenced.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The multiverse wasnt created by god that was an after effect. It was created by Krona in Crisis on Infinitr eaths.

The Vertigo comics say otherwise. Which is why I and several others just tend to ignore Krona's role.

DC Universe history and Vertigo history clash in alot ways though...

Originally posted by Jesse7
The Vertigo comics say otherwise. Which is why I and several others just tend to ignore Krona's role.

DC Universe history and Vertigo history clash in alot ways though...

Precusely my point.

Show me where its stated Yahweh creayed a multiverse in Vertigo as opposed to a universe

well everything was created by God, the multiverse wasn't even suppose to be and Krona messed up the Universe making it a Multiverse by looking to the beginning. after COIE it turned into 1 Universe what it was suppose to be in the first place.

Lucifer's comic is very hard to pin point where it is in DC/Vertigo Time line. At the same time everyone left Hell in Lucifer, the First of the Fallen was in Hell along with many demons welcoming him back to Hell. in the JLA years ago they told Zauriel about talking to human girls and warned him of the danger of doing so, and they used the Archangel Michael as a point saying Michael wasn't in Heaven anymore, Zauriel didn't want to hear the story about Michael and still wanted to be mortal and he was allowed too. has anyone read anything about Ragnarok?? GS did u yet?? it would be very interesting if u did to see the similarity's from real world Ragnarok to DC Ragnarok.

Oh GS could u scan a few Images of the angels talking about The Presence, i got 6 out of 9 of the Lucifer Hard back comic books and have only seen them talk about it in Lucifer 40, and ive seen u post more times when they have talked about The Presence but can't find them.

dammit the comic book pages are too large to upload.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
dammit the comic book pages are too large to upload.

Whatever you say mate

Tell me the issue and the page and i'll do the job 4 u

Originally posted by kevdude
Oh GS could u scan a few Images of the angels talking about The Presence, i got 6 out of 9 of the Lucifer Hard back comic books and have only seen them talk about it in Lucifer 40, and ive seen u post more times when they have talked about The Presence but can't find them.

Im a lazy f*cker but i'll see what i can do

i dont have the comics right now just the page. an online one. i cud give u the contents of the convo if u want though.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
i dont have the comics right now just the page. an online one. i cud give u the contents of the convo if u want though.

Nope.

Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope.

Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL?

Hmmm 15 mins later. I thought as much

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope.

Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL?


nope, unlike u i give my oppinion after readin sumthin, ill post the convo, tell u to concentrate on a few important phrases n exlpain em.



{lucifer has stabbed micheal with his sword in the void n they both stand there as the energy released does its work}

micheal: and this is what excatly?
lucifer:the culmination of all my efforts. the end of PREDESTINATION. the end of TYRANNY.
i have ESCAPED from PROVIDENCE micheal. ive gone in the GOD BUSINESS.

you could join me if u wanted, ud be welcome.
micheal:i will consider it, but i think not. go well brother

{end of page}

NOW what does it LOOK like lucifer is saying? does it sound like the presence has control over the creation thas about to be made? can lucifer be so stupid as to say all that n not mean it in the slightest?! {this is just before lucifer creates his own universe}


another page.............

{lucifer and micheal stand outside a rip in the universe}

micheal:its beautiful, i can feel it.....reaching out to embrace me.
lucifer:thats an interesting side affect.if u make a hole in the universe, all sorts of things will be sucked in towards it.
micheal:knowing you as i do im SURE youve TAKEN STEPS TO SAFEGUARD YOUR PRIVACY.

"GOD HAS SPOKEN"

lucifer:has he now, and did my name come up in ther conversation?

micheal:he wishes you to proceed NO FURTHER IN THIS.
there can be only ONE CREATION. he will "PERMIT" NO OTHER.

{end of page}

THIS clearly proves that god neither wished nor PERMITTED another creation.

{next page}

lucifer: he will permit? micheal micheal! what are you saying to me? this is NONESENSE.

his JURISDICTION "ENDS" here, beyond the gate is all MINE.
he has no AUTHORITY to PERMIT or PROSCRIBE me in MY universe.


micheal:he is your creator brother. the rules are his not yours. and by the same token what u make is also his im sorry.

lucifer: so am i, more sorry than i can say
micheal: he requires an answer
lucifre: id hoped that you of all of them might have had the courage at last to say no.

lucifer: ill give him an answer, ill give him an answer thatll RING IN HIS EARS UNTIL THE SKY FALLS.

{page ends}


NOW DOESNT THAT PROVE IN LUCIFER'S OWN WORDS THAT GODHAD NO POWER OVER HIS CREATION?! n micheal said that what lucifer makes is GOD'S

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope.

Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL?


nope, unlike u i give my oppinion after readin sumthin, ill post the convo, tell u to concentrate on a few important phrases n exlpain em.



{lucifer has stabbed micheal with his sword in the void n they both stand there as the energy released does its work}

micheal: and this is what excatly?
lucifer:the culmination of all my efforts. the end of PREDESTINATION. the end of TYRANNY.
i have ESCAPED from PROVIDENCE micheal. ive gone in the GOD BUSINESS.

you could join me if u wanted, ud be welcome.
micheal:i will consider it, but i think not. go well brother

{end of page}

NOW what does it LOOK like lucifer is saying? does it sound like the presence has control over the creation thas about to be made? can lucifer be so stupid as to say all that n not mean it in the slightest?! {this is just before lucifer creates his own universe}


another page.............

{lucifer and micheal stand outside a rip in the universe}

micheal:its beautiful, i can feel it.....reaching out to embrace me.
lucifer:thats an interesting side affect.if u make a hole in the universe, all sorts of things will be sucked in towards it.
micheal:knowing you as i do im SURE youve TAKEN STEPS TO SAFEGUARD YOUR PRIVACY.

"GOD HAS SPOKEN"

lucifer:has he now, and did my name come up in ther conversation?

micheal:he wishes you to proceed NO FURTHER IN THIS.
there can be only ONE CREATION. he will "PERMIT" NO OTHER.

{end of page}

THIS clearly proves that god neither wished nor PERMITTED another creation.

{next page}

lucifer: he will permit? micheal micheal! what are you saying to me? this is NONESENSE.

his JURISDICTION "ENDS" here, beyond the gate is all MINE.
he has no AUTHORITY to PERMIT or PROSCRIBE me in MY universe.


micheal:he is your creator brother. the rules are his not yours. and by the same token what u make is also his im sorry.

lucifer: so am i, more sorry than i can say
micheal: he requires an answer
lucifre: id hoped that you of all of them might have had the courage at last to say no.

lucifer: ill give him an answer, ill give him an answer thatll RING IN HIS EARS UNTIL THE SKY FALLS.

{page ends}


NOW DOESNT THAT PROVE IN LUCIFER'S OWN WORDS THAT GODHAD NO POWER OVER HIS CREATION?! n micheal said that what lucifer makes is GOD'S, but lucifer replies by sayin that hell give god an answer thatll ring in his ars till the sky falls! and the answer was that even with micheal saying that he was not allowed or powerful enough to challenge god's judgement, lucifer DID, n went on to take control of his universe/multiverse

Leon after that Michael says "Lucifer you cannot force him into a confrontation" Lucifer then says "I can do exactly as i like".. Yahweh/The Presence never showed up, and Michael is right about that! Everything Lucifer has done is part of the great plan of the Presence. all god did was piss Lucifer off more into doing what God wants him to do, thats all. God got what he wants with Lucifer not even knowing it .

Originally posted by kevdude
Leon after that Michael says "Lucifer you cannot force him into a confrontation" Lucifer then says "I can do exactly as i like".. Yahweh/The Presence never showed up, and Michael is right about that! Everything Lucifer has done is part of the great plan of the Presence. all god did was piss Lucifer off more into doing what God wants him to do, thats all. God got what he wants with Lucifer not even knowing it .

all that proves is the presence IS more powerful than lucifer, n i NEVER denied that it wasnt, but lucifer is compareable, in some sense, thas all im sayin, n his universe/multiverse IS out of the presence's jurisdiction as i have proven. wat u r sayin is ur oppinion, i have provided facts that people just keep denying. the REASON lucifer fell from heaven was because he rebelled against the presence's master plan, he WUDNT have fallen if he part of it, or remained part of it. or r u sayin that when micheal told lucifer god's wishes n wil he was lying in a wierd kinda attempt to actually MAKE lucifer create the universe{that he was already gonna creat reguardless of opposition or motivation due to revenge} outside of god's creation. is THAT ur argument? im sure any1 can see how ridiculous that is n it makes no sense watsoever. neither lucifer;s actions nor the universe he created{which IS outside the presence's power} or his rebellion and creation of hell or his fallen status were or are part of the presence's mastre plan.

what u don't get leon is that the rebellion is a part of the Presences plan, everything is a part of the great plan, the only thing God left open was to not know who would be the main 1 who could replace him, God wanted to be surprised about not knowing who would be the next ruler. In Lucifer 40 it shows yahweh/the presence/god talking to michael and lucifer and told Lucifer he wasted eternity to try to get away from the plan that which contains all things even his rebellion was a part of it, it even means Lucifers creation is Gods creation, Michael even said "And by the same token, what YOU make is also HIS(GODs), I'm sorry." Gods jurisdiction does not end in his creation it extends to whatever Lucifer and Michael and you could even say Elaine create.

Originally posted by kevdude
what u don't get leon is that the rebellion is a part of the Presences plan, everything is a part of the great plan, the only thing God left open was to not know who would be the main 1 who could replace him, God wanted to be surprised about not knowing who would be the next ruler. In Lucifer 40 it shows yahweh/the presence/god talking to michael and lucifer and told Lucifer he wasted eternity to try to get away from the plan that which contains all things even his rebellion was a part of it, it even means Lucifers creation is Gods creation, Michael even said "And by the same token, what YOU make is also HIS(GODs), I'm sorry." Gods jurisdiction does not end in his creation it extends to whatever Lucifer and Michael and you could even say Elaine create.


ur not liek gs n i hope u can listen to reason. please just go through ur reply again, n tell me,have u mentioned any feat or any character sayin sumthing like that, what you are sayin is an oppinion, a sumwhat reasonable one as you think its common sense, but ur giving the presence top position without anythin ot back it up, thas WHY u think its the way u say, but i have given proof that its not. and when micheal says that, lucifer STILL went on to rule his creation, thus proving micheal wrong{ill give him an answer thatll ring in his ears until the sk falls... and he did} it is common sense to look at simple interpretation n not always be thinking that the writer had compllicated logic he hid outright from the readers n left for just some to find out, logically, the presence is above lucifer, but also, does not have power OVER him or his creation, lucifer is not THAT MUCH weaker, probably more than 50% powerful compared to the presence, in an all out fight hed lose, but still has enough power to GIVE a fight, n retain what is his, like his creation, n the main point is, that the presence is NOT perfect and infalliable.

no i've read everything gs has said and i've read everything you have said and i have also done research on the topic in debate rit now for myself, and have come to the same conclusion time and again, and i agree with gs, we don't agree on a few minor things rit now such as Dc/Vertigo time lines and if DC/Vertigo are together which i believe them to be. The Presence is perfect! it is Lucifers opinion that u are agreeing with, which is outdated if u read the newer Lucifer comic books today, even if u read what Michael says and what Lucifer says, you could still come the the same conclusion.

Lucifer isn't 50% as powerful as The Presence, God is infinitely more powerful and Lucifer isn't infinite. when Elaine was talking to God when she left creation and said she would fight God to protect the universe if he decided he would let everything fall apart, God told her point blank "there will be no fight at all" and this is someone who is more powerful then Lucifer (though Elaine doesn't have the brains Luci does). Lucifer would still lose and would lose bad.

on a side note, Swamp Thing was seen at the Coast City memorial remembrance thing, and he is in Vertigo most of the time.

again, thas ur oppinion, ur denying wats given in the comics, the presence is not infinitely powerful, its more powerful than lucifer YES, but not infinitely since lucifer is potentially the next god, the presence was nearly killed by full potential swamp thing, he was weakened when he left creation which is not befitting of sum1 omnipotent, the great beast is the presence's equal in power. the infinite regression of gods that for thr eternal cycle is said to be beyond the presence himself as stated by lucifer. ur argument does not hold in light of the evidence seen.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
again, thas ur oppinion, ur denying wats given in the comics, the presence is not infinitely powerful, its more powerful than lucifer YES, but not infinitely since lucifer is potentially the next god, the presence was nearly killed by full potential swamp thing, he was weakened when he left creation which is not befitting of sum1 omnipotent, the great beast is the presence's equal in power. the infinite regression of gods that for thr eternal cycle is said to be beyond the presence himself as stated by lucifer. ur argument does not hold in light of the evidence seen.

Post scans of your evidence as opposed to just posting your interpretation of events. Something i have shown on this very thread to be somewhat dubious to say the least.

You need to understand that Lucifer amd Michael were created to POTENTIALLY be Gods successors. As stand alone beings they are not comparable to God. (As demonstrated by Lucifers declining powers with the absence of Yahweh from creation. ) For the brothers to achieve their full potential in which case they would be comparable to God they would have had to have gone through the ritual Elaine did (i.e sitting on the Primum Mobile and accepting their birthright and all the responsibilities it entails)

Neither of the brothers did that and as such they are now and forever will be merely just creations of Yahweh, regardless of what role they were made in mind for. They are still his creations and their power is still dependent on him. With that in mind youre very much incorrect as we've seen time and time again on this thread.

Heres another point you're wrong on:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5103/lucifer39p100en.th.jpg

Lucifers rebellion was very much a part of Yahwehs plans as he states here.

Choose something a lil less complicated to be a fanboy on.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was created by Krona in Crisis on Infinitr eaths.


It really doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Xplosive
It really doesn't matter.

What are you going on about? It doesnt matter in terms of what? Explain yourself.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What are you going on about? It doesnt matter in terms of what? Explain yourself.

Because in the end, everything exist ebacsue of God, everything was created by God, everything that happened, is because God started it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Because in the end, everything exist ebacsue of God, everything was created by God, everything that happened, is because God started it.

However the multiverse came about because of Krona it wasnt something God created. In Crisis on Infinite Earths the multiverse was said to be something beyond Spectres masters imagining.

lmao, exactly WHAT does that scan show or prove?! i see absolutely NUTHING that tells of lucifer's rebellion being the presence's plan or of the presence having power over lucifer{creation as seen does not guaruntee power OVER} it only tells of sameal's rebellion as a way of letting lucifer reflect on his actions, and in the end even the voice ADMITS that it foresaw everythin in sameal's rebellion untill THEN, which mean that the presence is NOT infalliable{n if i hadnt addressed this riduculous scan of urs due to bein tired of tryin to cinvince, u wudv easily manipulated it to PROVE to people that it inded does prove that the presence owns lucifer and everythin he does or creates}

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However the multiverse came about because of Krona it wasnt something God created. In Crisis on Infinite Earths the multiverse was said to be something beyond Spectres masters imagining.

Yes true, because God didn't plan that. But Multiverse was created, because of God in the end, because God stared the universe.
And kevdude said that Krona messed up the Universe making it a Multiverse, so he could do that, because of God.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes true, because God didn't plan that. But Multiverse was created, because of God in the end, because God stared the universe.
And kevdude said that Krona messed up the Universe making it a Multiverse, so he could do that, because of God.

XP that doesnt really mean anything, i fail to see your point and how you are contributing to the debate in question.

The crux of the matter is that the multiverse was brought about by Krona not god directly.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
XP that doesnt really mean anything, i fail to see your point and how you are contributing to the debate in question.

The crux of the matter is that the multiverse was brought about by Krona not god directly.

Yes, true. But Krona was able to do that, because of God.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lmao, exactly WHAT does that scan show or prove?! i see absolutely NUTHING that tells of lucifer's rebellion being the presence's plan or of the presence having power over lucifer{creation as seen does not guaruntee power OVER} it only tells of sameal's rebellion as a way of letting lucifer reflect on his actions, and in the end even the voice ADMITS that it foresaw everythin in sameal's rebellion untill THEN, which mean that the presence is NOT infalliable{n if i hadnt addressed this riduculous scan of urs due to bein tired of tryin to cinvince, u wudv easily manipulated it to PROVE to people that it inded does prove that the presence owns lucifer and everythin he does or creates}

In Lucifer 39 Yahweh talks to the brothers about his great plan and why he has chosen who he has to be his successor. He starts off by saying that the brothers and the roles they played in the making of creation was unneccessary. Creation wouldve formed itself however he wanted to prepare the brothers for the time when he would choose a successor so by taking part they'd learn the necessary skills:


http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/6696/lucifer39p096wk.th.jpg

He then goes on to tell the brothers that he created the host only because of the role he had intended for the brothers. They were peers through which the brothers could learn right and wrong, mature and develop with. Yahweh then reveals that the rebellion was a part of his plan by saying how else could Lucifer have had a rebellion if it wasnt for him creating the host to be his followers, he says theres a reason for everything he does, that the rebellion was the point, it was something he intended and expected from one of the brothers at least. Yahweh then says how disappointed he was with Michael for not questioning his existence and gods right to act as he does over creation. He however was pleased with Lucifer and says up until this point he had acted according to the plan. So conclusively you have proof there that the rebellion was a part of the plan.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5103/lucifer39p100en.th.jpg

As for having power over Lucifer the fact that his power dwindled with Yahwehs absence says it all. Thats quite conclusive my friend

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes, true. But Krona was able to do that, because of God.

Yes because god created him but so what? The creation of the multiverse wasnt a part of gods plans and thats the crux of the matter. I fail to see what point youre trying to make, this has very little to do with the debate. Its just like youre trying to be right on one thing at least even if it has nothing to with the thread LOL.

I have never seen or read any part of Swamp Thing that ever said he had power to destroy The Presence, and i've also read all of the swamp thing history page and there is nothing that says he ever did that. the only time people could get confused about this is when The Great Darkness (TGEB) went up against God and Constantine figured out Swamp Things full powers and he went to talk to the Beast but could not stop it. The Presence/God/Yahweh does > everyone.

Gs could u post a few times when the angels talked about the Presence??? been waiting a few days, u dont have to do it, i could just buy them, but pretty pls

Originally posted by kevdude
I have never seen or read any part of Swamp Thing that ever said he had power to destroy The Presence, and i've also read all of the swamp thing history page and there is nothing that says he ever did that. the only time people could get confused about this is when The Great Darkness (TGEB) went up against God and Constantine figured out Swamp Things full powers and he went to talk to the Beast but could not stop it. The Presence/God/Yahweh does > everyone.

Gs could u post a few times when the angels talked about the Presence??? been waiting a few days, u dont have to do it, i could just buy them, but pretty pls

Do u know what issues they have talked about Presence in?

LMAO

Thats what im asking u GS lol. i've only seen them talk about The Presence 1 time(in issue 40), and u had scans that show more times.

After gaining access to Yahwehs thoughts Michael wishes to have it out with his father, he goes to see the Presence aspect:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4508/lucifer40p051oj.th.jpg


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9162/lucifer40p097zf.th.jpg

More to come.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2134/lucifer53p027gp.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9727/lucifer53p030pu.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3879/lucifer53p045cj.th.jpg

There arent alot of scenes wherethe angels do talk about the Presence. If you tell me what kind of comments youre looking for then i'll know from memory and i'll be able to go directly to the comic, otherwise theres 70 issues i have to scroll through lol.