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Who would win? Please vote.

thanos w THOTU wins easily.

THOTU

Thanos

why is such a queston asked?

Originally posted by Mider
why is such a queston asked?

Why not? Is there anything wrong with my question? I mean if you can have PF VS LT questions, why not this? I'm just trying to clarify the hierachy of power.

What's your answer Midler?

Originally posted by Mider
why is such a queston asked? you know GS is gonna come in here saying tha Phoenix is more powerful than Thanos with the HOTU right?

Originally posted by King KAM
you know GS is gonna come in here saying tha Phoenix is more powerful than Thanos with the HOTU right?

Oh sure , that's a given. But I'm not that interested in GS. The more interesting question is will the majority of people think the same?

The stock in PF has risen a lot, but I'm more curious to see whether people go as far as GS in making PF top dog.

His recent direction seems to be

1. To create doubt about TOAA, so as to disqualify it from consideration

2. Degrade the power of LT

3. Degrade the power of HOTU

This seems to be different from his stance in the past that gives PF/LT roughly equal status but different roles, both serving under TOAA

If he succeeds in all 3, PF will be top dog.

From my observation of this forum, he has some succeess with doing 1) and 2).

It will be interesting to see if he succueeds in 3). This thread is meant to gauge 3).

i do not degrade the power of THOTU or TOAA sept when in comparison to the presance and i can back up my claims i can also back up my claims to the LT's degrading himself so can GS even greater then me THOTU is suppose to be the main power of all it destroyed the multiverse sept for the places outside of it so who wins hmm let me think THOTU to me maybe GS says no but from my understanding of what THOTU is it is the very power of TOAA but thats just IMO

Originally posted by Mider
i do not degrade the power of THOTU or TOAA sept when in comparison to the presance and i can back up my claims i can also back up my claims to the LT's degrading himself so can GS even greater then me

Fair enough, I'm not saying that those claims are wrong , dont get me wrong.




So in other words, despite being a follower of GS's PF club, you still think HOTU is more powerful and you are not convinced by GS that PF>HOTU? Thank you for your honesty.

And btw all our comments are IMO or IMHO, even GS's ...

im not part of any club me and her or him have probably disputed in the past if i was part of any club id say that thanos or ss was unbeatable thank you my opinions are my own and others share them with me before she or he came up with the idea of the PF being greater then the LT i believe i was the one who hated the LT's guts because people actually thought he was greater then the pre-reconned beyonder.

Originally posted by Richrf
Oh sure , that's a given. But I'm not that interested in GS. The more interesting question is will the majority of people think the same?

The stock in PF has risen a lot, but I'm more curious to see whether people go as far as GS in making PF top dog.

His recent direction seems to be

1. To create doubt about TOAA, so as to disqualify it from consideration

2. Degrade the power of LT

3. Degrade the power of HOTU

This seems to be different from his stance in the past that gives PF/LT roughly equal status but different roles, both serving under TOAA

If he succeeds in all 3, PF will be top dog.

From my observation of this forum, he has some succeess with doing 1) and 2).

It will be interesting to see if he succueeds in 3). This thread is meant to gauge 3).

1. He didn't create doubt about TOAA (surely not in me), but it's clear we don't know much about TOAA, so it's better to put him out, also GS agreed with that. He can't say TOAA isn't supreme as we can't say he trully is supreme (because no where is stated, we can only assume, but that is not enough).

2. He didn't degrade LT, he only showed to many people truth. Many automaticly give LT over Phoenix (why, because they don't follow comic and still think it's the same, while it's not). Even Eternity said Phoenix to be beyond LT and any other abstract. LT wasn't downgraded, it was only told the truth and facts. There is only Phoenix beyond LT, so that really isn't downgrade in power.

3. Well, he didn't downgrade HOTU, but he thinks Phoenix Force to be beyond because of better feats. But we really can't judge by that, since HOTU was so little in comic and has done already one of the greatest feats ever in MU, only in one issue (making most powerful cosmic powers ever and others in MU like an antz at the same time, excluding PF, but could PF do the same to all major cosmic powerhouses, including other, as Zeus, Celestials, Galactus and... many other like HOTU did, I don't know, more no like yes). Even Phoenix didn't succeed with that. I think Phoenix Force cannot compare to HOTU.

Hmm Looks like he got to you too Xplosive.


Originally posted by Xplosive
1. He didn't create doubt about TOAA (surely not in me), but it's clear we don't know much about TOAA, so it's better to put him out,


Yes, put him out, so PF is No 1. Here we are supposed not to speculate, so we take out TOAA.



Please note, my comments about his recent direction, do not imply in any way, whether he is right or wrong. The word 'disgrade' is not meant to imply that he is wrong or right.

I take from your comments, he has succeeded in doing 1) and 2) .




Since most people think HOTU is more powerful than PF due to it's power in making LT look like an ant, to question the power of HOTU is to 'degrade' its power with the intent to make PF more powerful.

In the thread about LT versus PF, he is trying to diminish the feats of HOTU....




exactly. Since we have zero evidence PF can do that, why is it then that GS insists on placing PF beyond HOTU? What happened to the rule of not speculating?

Do we extend the benfit of the doubt only in the direction of supporting PF?



So it seems GS has failed in 3. For you.

Thank you for your comments

Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTU

THOTU

Holy firey birds Batman!!! 15 post and GS still hasn't made an appearance yet!

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Holy firey birds Batman!!! 15 post and GS still hasn't made an appearance yet!



Probably even GS is daunted by the magnitude of the task. He needs a lot of magic, since so far not a single one person is ready to support PF, not even his converts.

My guess is he's going to either go for the "who knows?We don't know enough" arguments and generously concede PF might be equal to HOTU,


OR

he might just say he is proud of his accomplishments so far in

First, making people believe PF = LT (stage 1)

Then, making people believe PF >LT (stage 2)

So he isn't going to push his luck to convince people PF>HOTU even though that is true.

Originally posted by Richrf
Hmm Looks like he got to you too Xplosive.

Yes, put him out, so PF is No 1. Here we are supposed not to speculate, so we take out TOAA.

Look, about TOAA, I personaly give him as supreme being and beyond anyone or anything, but can I prove that, no really I can't, so that is why I said, the best is to put TOAA out of debates, bceause we can't prove anything, you also can't, we can only assume he is the supreme.
As you can see, in my opinion PF is not no. 1.

Originally posted by Richrf
Please note, my comments about his recent direction, do not imply in any way, whether he is right or wrong. The word 'disgrade' is not meant to imply that he is wrong or right.

I take from your comments, he has succeeded in doing 1) and 2) .

He succede, because he is right. You cannot argue against facts. I agree with him Phoenix being beyond LT, is because he is right.
Now, do you think PF is beyond LT, also Eternity said that, do you think PF is beyond LT?

Originally posted by Richrf
Since most people think HOTU is more powerful than PF due to it's power in making LT look like an ant, to question the power of HOTU is to 'degrade' its power with the intent to make PF more powerful.

In the thread about LT versus PF, he is trying to diminish the feats of HOTU....

He cannot diminish HOTU feats. In his opinion PF is more powerful, in your or mine, HOTU is more powerful. He wants PF to be more powerful and trying to prove it, but with me he hasn't succeed in that not even with 0.1%. For me what HOTU did is better than anyhtin Pheonix did, like stopping M'Krann Crystal, for me HOTU feat is far better. And I put HOTU beyond PF, no matter how much I think Phonix is powerful, not in HOTU league.

Originally posted by Richrf
exactly. Since we have zero evidence PF can do that, why is it then that GS insists on placing PF beyond HOTU? What happened to the rule of not speculating?

Do we extend the benfit of the doubt only in the direction of supporting PF?

So it seems GS has failed in 3. For you.

Thank you for your comments

He can insist, but won't succeed, because PF is not more powerful than HOTU, it's otherwise.

In my opinion, TOAA of course and HOTU are beyond Phoenix. After them is Phoenix in 3rd place and after Pheonix it's LT.

Originally posted by Richrf
So he isn't going to push his luck to convince people PF>HOTU even though that is true.

What is true?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Look, about TOAA, I personaly give him as supreme being and beyond anyone or anything, but can I prove that, no really I can't, so that is why I said, the best is to put TOAA out of debates, bceause we can't prove anything, you also can't, we can only assume he is the supreme.
As you can see, in my opinion PF is not no. 1.

Yes in your opinion HOTU is no 1. Then PF No2.

You cannot talk about TOAA. Because you think we cannot prove anything about him.

GS needs to do one last thing for you, to convicne you that PF>HOTU, this thread is meant to give him a chance to do that. It's the next logical step...




Sure you can. When the 'facts' are merely interpretions. That's the fun of these debates.



Why hasn't he succeeded? Because he is wrong? I'm sure GS would beg to differ.




"For you" ? So does that mean it's subjective? It's not a fact that HOTU is more powerful than PF? It just seems so for you?

But you think it's a fact that PF>LT?



Ah, the naive viewpoint that 'truth' will always win out.. .

Have you changed your mind about anything in comics?

i dont even know whats a hotu, can anyone show me a pic

Originally posted by Richrf
Yes in your opinion HOTU is no 1. Then PF No2.

GS needs to do one last thing for you, to convicne you that PF>HOTU

Well, he already tried and failed.

Originally posted by Richrf
"For you" ? So does that mean it's subjective? It's not a fact that HOTU is more powerful than PF? It just seems so for you?

Pretty much when anyone say here one forum anything is subjective (especailly on Vs. Forum).

Originally posted by Richrf
But you think it's a fact that PF>LT?

It was said by Eternity, so it's pretty much a fact.

Originally posted by Spawnrules
i dont even know whats a hotu, can anyone show me a pic

HOTU is Heart of the Universe, when Thanos had it's power, it seemed he was almighty. He crushed LT, Eternity, Infinity, everything at the same time and destroyed them like with an blink of an eye.
No matter what power opposed him, it was nothing, was it Akhenan or MU Vs. THOTU, it didn't matter, they were nothing, combined or alone. MU Vs. THOTU was like nothing Vs. THOTU.

Incidentally, on the intro page of at least one issue of Thanos' last series, Starling writes that with THOTU Thanos destroyed HIS universe, NOT the multiverse as so many people are prone to believe. The impact of THOTU was universal, not multiversal.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Incidentally, on the intro page of at least one issue of Thanos' last series, Starling writes that with THOTU Thanos destroyed HIS universe, NOT the multiverse as so many people are prone to believe. The impact of THOTU was universal, not multiversal.

True.

So do you think HOTU < PF?

I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.

LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....

Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....

Since GS is not here yet, let me help.

Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.

So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).

Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.

PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption


So PF>HOTU.

What do you think Xplosive?

Originally posted by Richrf
True.

So do you think HOTU < PF?

I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.

LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....

Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....

Since GS is not here yet, let me help.

Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.

So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).

Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.

PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption


So PF>HOTU.

What do you think Xplosive?

LT is also multiversal power and still got crushed by HOTU.
HOTU>PF

Originally posted by Richrf
Oh sure , that's a given. But I'm not that interested in GS. The more interesting question is will the majority of people think the same?

The stock in PF has risen a lot, but I'm more curious to see whether people go as far as GS in making PF top dog.

His recent direction seems to be

1. To create doubt about TOAA, so as to disqualify it from consideration

2. Degrade the power of LT

3. Degrade the power of HOTU

This seems to be different from his stance in the past that gives PF/LT roughly equal status but different roles, both serving under TOAA

If he succeeds in all 3, PF will be top dog.

From my observation of this forum, he has some succeess with doing 1) and 2).

It will be interesting to see if he succueeds in 3). This thread is meant to gauge 3).

TOAA isnt by canon Marvels supreme being. I have merely attempted to shed that forum-wide misconception and have been quite successful.

During LTs confrontation with the IG he agreed that he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with it. With that in mind, plus a lack of feats, regardless of his role, in terms of power he cant be said to be greater than the IG.

Im not trying to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU. Im just saying people cant say HOTU is conclusively greater than Phoenix when Phoenix has greater feats and wasnt one of the defeated forces. That stands to reason.

You misunderstand son, this isnt about putting Phoenix at the top of Marvel, this is about highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards prevalent in alot of debates across this forum.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You misunderstand son, this isnt about putting Phoenix at the top of Marvel, this is about highlighting the hypocrisy and double standards prevalent in alot of debates across this forum.

hahah. your altruism and dedication to spreading the truth is what makes you one of the greats gs!

Originally posted by Richrf
True.

So do you think HOTU < PF?

I'm not entirely clear about the difference between Multiversal and universal.

LT is supposed to be the former (he is in all universes rather than copies), yet he will be replaced by evolution like Eternity which seems to sugguest he is universal. Unless all the universes evolve at the same rate.....

Similarly, if HOTU's universe ending feat is universal.....

Since GS is not here yet, let me help.

Maybe LT is supposed to be universal only.

So defeating him is a universal feat too. I'm not too sure about this reasoning. It might take multiunviersal power to defeat the top dog of a universal power (i'm assuming PF is multiversal).

Hence HOTU is just at that level. Universal level.

PF is supposed to be multiuniveral. The assumption here is that a multiversal power is more powerful than a universal power. A fair enough assumption, but still an assumption


So PF>HOTU.

What do you think Xplosive?

I copy and pasted this into MS word ages ago but i cant remember the site:

A Universe is a single dimension reality, such as Earth-616, the mainstream Marvel Universe.
Uni - "one"
The Multiverse is the collection of alternate dimensions with a similar nature and universal hierarchy. Earth-616, pretty much all of the What if? worlds, and the vast bulk of the alternate Earths seen in the MU (which include beings like the Watcher, Eternity, etc) are within the same Multiverse. The myriad realms of Earth-616's Multiverse are overseen by the Living Tribunal. Those realms that lack this hierarchy of power are outside of the Multiverse, but within the larger Omniverse.
Multi - "many"
The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your window--get out of your parent's basements and check it out!!), but it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., every mentioned in any of Marvel Comics, as well as those from DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc. It includes every single literary, television show, movie, urban legend, whatever universe/realm ever. It includes everyone from Popeye to Rocky Balboa to Ronald Reagan to Romeo and Juliet to Luke Skywalker to Snoopy to Jay and Silent Bob, etc.
EVERYTHING is in the Omniverse, and there is only one Omniverse. Period. The End.
Omni - "all"
The above classification system was devised (at least in part) by Mark Gruenwald. However, it does seem to be missing one element. We have coined the term Megaverse to include realms associated with a particular line of comics, etc., but outside of the Multiverse. This would include such realms as the New Universe, Earth-Shadowline, etc. These realms lack the cosmic beings of the mainstream Multiverse, yet they are still more closely tied to other Marvel Universes than those of other comic lines (such as DC). Thus they are included within the Marvel Megaverse.
Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the Multiverse).

There is one Living Tribunal so the one we see in What Ifs is the same one we see in 616 appearances. Some people have mistakenly assumed that because of this fact that he's automatically more powerful than beings and powers who are universal in nature. As we've seen with the What Ifs (the Korvac one), debatably the IG and HOTU that just isnt the case. He is just a different nature of being.

Originally posted by leonidas
hahah. your altruism and dedication to spreading the truth is what makes you one of the greats gs!

That info came from this website

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/

Originally posted by Mordum
That info came from this website

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/


Thanks Mordum!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

During LTs confrontation with the IG he agreed that he didnt know how he would fare in a confrontation with it. With that in mind, plus a lack of feats, regardless of his role, in terms of power he cant be said to be greater than the IG.


If you say so, but this thread is not about LT, or TOAA......



I'm surprised at you GS.

Why not say PF is greater than HOTU? According to you PF has greater feats than HOTU right?

After all , you use the same argument to say LT is weaker than PF. I.E LT has weaker feats than PF.

Since the same thing apples to HOTU VS PF to be consistent you would have to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU...

But something stops you, what is it?

BTW did you vote in this poll? Who for?



You would be a lot more convincing, if your every post didn't happen to have the effect of putting PF at the top of the hierachy, or equalavantly to avoid conceding that PF might actually god forbid lose to anything....

Originally posted by Richrf
If you say so, but this thread is not about LT, or TOAA......

No its not but you were the first to mention LT in this thread so i responded in kind. If i say so? If LT agrees he doesnt know then who is anyone on this forum to speak for him? Without a demonstration of power beyond what we've seen from the IG and with that scene in mind, noone can say hes conclusively beyond the IG.



Originally posted by Richrf
I'm surprised at you GS.

Why not say PF is greater than HOTU? According to you PF has greater feats than HOTU right?

After all , you use the same argument to say LT is weaker than PF. I.E LT has weaker feats than PF.

Dont be surprised Richie. Based on Phoenix having higher feats and its role i'll let everyone come to their own conclusions. My point wasnt to make Phoenix higher up in the hierarchy than HOTU it was to highlight hypocrisy. With my views on Phoenix well known theres no need for me to relay my position your satisfaction. By using the same point certain members have used against myself i have been throughly amused to see said members both arguing against/ stubornly refusing to accept said point before eventually witnessing the collapse of their arguments.

Originally posted by Richrf
Since the same thing apples to HOTU VS PF to be consistent you would have to say Phoenix is greater than HOTU...

But something stops you, what is it?

BTW did you vote in this poll? Who for?

You would be a lot more convincing, if your every post didn't happen to have the effect of putting PF at the top of the hierachy, or equalavantly to avoid conceding that PF might actually god forbid lose to anything....

Whether i convince you or not is of little to no consequence to myself as my reasons for doing this remain the same regardless.

As a side note considering the on panel evidence ive provided is the viewpoint that the Phoenix Force is second only to Marvels supreme being not completely understandable? Does it not have the top feats in Marvel? On top of that there are many occassions in many debates where i have painted a scenario in which a phoenix host can be defeated. You're uninformed my friend. Certainly not my problem.

Please explain to me what hypocrisy is involved in saying HOTU is greater than PF. Or hypocrisy is saying that TOAA is the supreme being..

Here's one definition of the word



So you saying those who rate PF lower down on the scale, don't really believe so?



I do think that it is interesting that while you do not hesitate to proclaim your view of PF being supreme to everything else, you hesitate to do so for HOTU..... Since even you the biggest fan of PF is not willing to state your belief out loud, I guess we can declare victory for HOTU then.




Really? In this case though, it seems you are not willing to even argue for PF vs HOTU! Are you afraid your arguments will collapse?



Maybe not me, but havent you gone on record and said that raising, the status of PF on this board, is one of your greatest achievements?

I think it's a bad sign though that you refuse to defend PF against HOTU...




People need to hear you say it GS before they are convinced. It looks a bad sign for PF fans to hear that GS refuses to say that PF>HOTU...



Oh sure because they let themsleves get defeated. Because they don't need to be here, because it suits their purpose etc and other excuses

I find it amusing that the LT fans use pretty much the same excuses to defend low showing...

But of course in this poll, such reasons do not exist...

Originally posted by leonidas
hahah. your altruism and dedication to spreading the truth is what makes you one of the greats gs!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


There is one Living Tribunal so the one we see in What Ifs is the same one we see in 616 appearances. Some people have mistakenly assumed that because of this fact that he's automatically more powerful than beings and powers who are universal in nature. As we've seen with the What Ifs (the Korvac one), debatably the IG and HOTU that just isnt the case. He is just a different nature of being.

GS don't you see that there's a problem here?

Assume what Eternity tells us about the nature order is true. That humans will replace all the abstracts even LT.

In each universe, there will be humans, who evolve at different rates, some will replace earlier, some later.

If the replacement only affects abstracts, we have no problem, since there is one copy in each universe.

But how does it work with LT who is multiuniversal?

I suppose the same way that different Jean Greys are able to wield the PF.

I'd be so bold as to state that I unequivocally think that PF>THOTU. That story was more of a psychological study of Thanos than a demonstration of the power of a particular artifact, imo. I don't think Starlin intended it to be the focus of the story like the IG was.

As far as what happened with the LT...The problem with dealing with a being like that is that one can never be sure of motivation, power, desire, ability, etc. Also, because of his role in the MU, it's difficult for me to think that he was simply defeated and the multiverse would just continue orderly as usual.

For all we know, after Infinity Abyss, while living his life of peace and contemplation, Thanos stumbled across a strange fungus or herb in his garden. It was all just a dream...

Originally posted by Richrf
Please explain to me what hypocrisy is involved in saying HOTU is greater than PF. Or hypocrisy is saying that TOAA is the supreme being..

Here's one definition of the word



So you saying those who rate PF lower down on the scale, don't really believe so?

You presume too much Richie. I have stated on these forums my reasons for this recent questioning of LT and so on, you obviously missed that. Those im directing this at know who they are, you need not worry yourself. Do not presume to know my motives or even worse to guess and then criticise based on that. Youre uninformed. Watch and listen.


Originally posted by Richrf
I do think that it is interesting that while you do not hesitate to proclaim your view of PF being supreme to everything else, you hesitate to do so for HOTU..... Since even you the biggest fan of PF is not willing to state your belief out loud, I guess we can declare victory for HOTU then.

Really? In this case though, it seems you are not willing to even argue for PF vs HOTU! Are you afraid your arguments will collapse?

Who is hesitating? My views have been stated previously, my views are well known this is an old topic thats been done many times before. I will not post for your satisfaction. Phoenix has the bigger feats so make of that what you will.

Originally posted by Richrf
Maybe not me, but havent you gone on record and said that raising, the status of PF on this board, is one of your greatest achievements?

I think it's a bad sign though that you refuse to defend PF against HOTU...
People need to hear you say it GS before they are convinced. It looks a bad sign for PF fans to hear that GS refuses to say that PF>HOTU...

I have defended Phoenix by sorting through misconception riddled posts you've presented over the last few days. You dont speak for the people dont presume to tell me what they need to hear. My views are well known, my position is evident from my posts. I dont post to satisfy.



Originally posted by Richrf
Oh sure because they let themsleves get defeated. Because they don't need to be here, because it suits their purpose etc and other excuses

I find it amusing that the LT fans use pretty much the same excuses to defend low showing...

But of course in this poll, such reasons do not exist...

Yet again youre making assumptions and posting from ignorance. If you'd like to be informed then ask nicely son. Dont guess my answer and make criticisms based on that.

The difference between the Phoenixes low showings and LTs are that they are explained away on panel. Its stated by captions, supporting characters and so on. Be it self imposed psychic circuit breakers, higher priorities or whatever its stated on panel, in bios, plus the Phoenix has consistent high end feats to back that up and support them being on the whole PIS/CIS. (Not in all cases mind you, Rachel is a prime example)

LTs low showings however are never, ever explained away on panel, plus on top of that he doesnt have a high level display of power(beyond the dubious) meaning that such low showings cant automatically be dismissed as PIS/CIS because he hasnt shown to be significantly and consistently beyond such low showings. Plus such an opinion isnt supported on panel. Thats the difference my friend.

Originally posted by Richrf
GS don't you see that there's a problem here?

Assume what Eternity tells us about the nature order is true. That humans will replace all the abstracts even LT.

In each universe, there will be humans, who evolve at different rates, some will replace earlier, some later.

If the replacement only affects abstracts, we have no problem, since there is one copy in each universe.

But how does it work with LT who is multiuniversal?

No timeframe was specified in X-men Forever. Eternity never said it was at the same time. For all we know LT gets replaced when the multiverse as a whole goes through its cycle. He's around presumably as long as there is a multiverse to maintain a balance through. Beyond my own speculation however Eternitys comments are what they are we are not privy to their inner workings, but they remain.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I suppose the same way that different Jean Greys are able to wield the PF.

I'd be so bold as to state that I unequivocally think that PF>THOTU.


Thank you for a straight and honest answer. Cosmic Flame.
I don't know why GS is trying so hard to avoid saying that.




Yes I fully agree. LT has shown that at times he is willing to give an appearance of being defeated, when it suits his purpose.

I don't really like using this reasoning as an escape route though, since it has the power to explain away his low showing as well.
Like the so often mentioned 'battle' with Dr Strange, where it seems Dr Strange gets his way.



I fully agree. The treatment of LT isn't consistent. At times he seems to be multiuniversal, at times he is not.




Well yeah that could happen, but again it would be way too dangerous a precedent to set, since this could destroy almost any other evidence
used for arguments here as well.

Dear GS

I was hoping to get a discussion , but it seems you prefer to litter your replies with personal attacks (count the number of times you use ignorant, ignorance) or mentions of misconception riddened post, without saying anything else.

I take it then that the lack of response to my points is that you concede my arguments in those areas.

But I guess the post isn't all a loss, since right at the end you at least seem ready to talk evidence. It's about an incidental point about PF VS LT, not really the subject of this thread which least you forget is about HOTU...., but what the heck... Convince me...



As always I'm read to be convinced, as far as i know, your explainations of low showings of PF have never being backed by all the evidence you mention.

It's along the lines of "she allowed herself to die... because she otherwise couldnt die..." kind of reasoning...

Feel free to post the evidence, it doesn't seem hard, the way you write about "captions", "supporting characters".,"bios"

Originally posted by Richrf
Dear GS

I was hoping to get a discussion , but it seems you prefer to litter your replies with personal attacks (count the number of times you use ignorant, ignorance) or mentions of misconception riddened post, without saying anything else.

I take it then that the lack of response to my points is that you concede my arguments in those areas.

Richie my friend were you or were you not ignorant to some key issues which affect the characters in question? If the answer is yes then see my post not as a personal attack but instead as me more bluntly than you'd like just telling it how i see it. Regradless of your lack of knowledge on specific areas you still criticise as if you are an authority on the subject. Not a good thing to do.

What points have you brought up that i havent responded to?

Originally posted by Richrf
But I guess the post isn't all a loss, since right at the end you at least seem ready to talk evidence. It's about an incidental point about PF VS LT, not really the subject of this thread which least you forget is about HOTU...., but what the heck... Convince me...



As always I'm read to be convinced, as far as i know, your explainations of low showings of PF have never being backed by all the evidence you mention.

It's along the lines of "she allowed herself to die... because she otherwise couldnt die..." kind of reasoning...

Feel free to post the evidence, it doesn't seem hard, the way you write about "captions", "supporting characters".,"bios"

Forget that. Im not retreading past arguments and posting scans for someone so critical and dismissive despite admitting to not being the most clued up on the area. With that in mind i dont feel obligated to

If you wish to see some of the evidence ive referred to theres an ever so handy search function accessible at the top of this forum. Just type in "Phoenix". Let me know how it goes.

Living Tribunal
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The Living Tribunal is a fictional character in the Marvel Comics Universe. The Tribunal is an omnipotent entity that is empowered by an unknown force to pass judgment on beings capable of changing the universe and to maintain the 'cosmic balance of power'.

Real Name: Inapplicable
Nicknames: No known nicknames
Former Aliases: No known former aliases
Other Current Aliases: No other known current aliases

Occupation: Inapplicable
Legal Status: Inapplicable
Identity: Living Tribunal's existence is unknown to the general populace of Earth.
Marital Status: Inapplicable
Group Affiliation: No known group affiliation
Base of Operations: Mobile

Place of Birth: Inapplicable
Known Relatives: No known relatives
First Appearance: STRANGE TALES #157
Origin: created by The One Above All to watch over the multiverse

History: The Living Tribunal is a vastly powerful humanoid entity who has existed as long as the universe itself, and whose function is to safeguard the multiverse (the continuum of alternate universes) from an imbalance of mystical forces. Possessing untold power, the Tribunal will act to prevent one of the universes from amassing more concentrated mystical power than any of the others, or upsetting the cosmic balance and threatening the other universes. The Tribunal will also act to prevent a grave imbalance between the mystical forces allied with good and those allied with evil within one universe. Usually the Tribunal leaves matters involving a mystical imbalance affecting only Earth's universe to be monitored by the universe's "abstract" entities Lord Chaos and Master Order, and to be dealt with by their creation, the In-Betweener.

The Tribunal is willing to obliterate an entire inhabited planet to safeguard an entire universe or the multiverse itself, and is fully capable of doing so by an exercise of his own power. One of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, the Tribunal can turn a star into a supernova with a single force bolt.

The Living Tribunal manifests itself as a being with three faces, which represent the three sides of the Tribunal's personality. Its front face, through which it usually speaks, stands for equity. The completely hooded face on the right side of its head represents necessity, and the half-hooded face on the left side stands for just revenge. All three sides of the Tribunal's mind must be in agreement when judging a case requiring possible action before the Tribunal can intervene.

The Living Tribunal (or a counterpart) existed in the universe that preceded that of Earth-616. When the Dweller-in-Darkness and D'Spayre caused the destruction of this universe by cracking the M'Krann crystal, the Living Tribunal contacted his "hooded spectral ally" (apparently the Spectre) and summoned the Brothers to start the next cycle. The Living Tribunal's first known encounter with a being of Earth-616 was with Earth's Sorcerer Supreme Doctor Strange. He later met the Galadorian spaceknight Rom and the vastly powerful extradimensional Beyonder. The Living Tribunal also sealed off an alternate Earth devastated by Korvac, encountered the Phoenix of an alternate Earth devastated by S'ym and the Goblin Queen, and has in the future encountered the Hawk God and the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Height: Variable
Weight: Unknown
Eyes: Glowing energy
Hair: Hair colour unknown
Unusual Features: No unusual features

Strength Level: Incalculable

Known Powers: The Tribunal possesses potentially infinite amounts of cosmic and mystical power.
Known Abilities: No known abilities.

Equipment: No known equipment.
Transportation: No known transportation.
Weapons: No known weapons.


Notes: No special notes.
The Living Tribunal oversees all the realities that constitute the Marvel Multiverse, from the mainstream "616" universe to all the alternate realities shown in "What If" comics and stories in alternate and parallel realities, such as Earth X and Squadron Supreme. They are sometimes compared to The Spectre of DC Comics.
The Living Tribunal is a trio of entities often presented in the form of a giant, golden man with a disembodied, three-faced head that floats above his body. The Tribunal passes judgment on crises that endanger the multiverse, usually through the bodies of M-Bodies, which have been empowered with a portion of the Living Tribunal's powers. It has been said that there is one who ranks above them, the One Above All (not to be confused with the leader of the Celestials, who also bears the same name), whose will he seeks to carry out. This being, supposedly the God of the Marvel Universe, has never been fully described or displayed, and most likely never will be. (During the Marvel vs. DC crossover, the Blue Brother was intended to be the One Above All by writers until the idea was nixed by higher-ups.)
The Living Tribunal has three faces. One is uncovered, one is partially covered, and one is completely covered. These three faces have multiple meanings:
Equity, Necessity, and Vengeance
The Living Tribunal once possessed a fourth face of another entity, which eventually left to seek its own identity. This entity over time became the enigmatic entity known as the Stranger.
When Thanos assembled the Infinity Gems into the Infinity Gauntlet, Eternity and other cosmic beings appealed to the Tribunal to oppose his actions, but the Tribunal decided that Thanos had a right to do so, on the basis that survival of the fittest is a natural law. However, when Adam Warlock took possession of the Gauntlet, the Tribunal opposed him, because of the instability that Warlock had demonstrated during the Cosmic Tribunal, when Adam Warlock lashed out at his fellow peers. Proving himself a match for the Gauntlet, the Tribunal forced Warlock to disassemble it, but did allow him to safeguard the Gems, which led to the formation of the Infinity Watch.

http://www.docstrange.com/profiles/livgtrib.asp

The Living Tribunal
The Living Tribunal First Appearance:
Strange Tales #157

Latest Appearance:
Rune/Silver Surfer #1

Profile:
Judgement incarnate of the infinite cosmos, whose function is to protect the Worlds Without End from an imbalance of mystical forces. The Living Tribunal is a primeval entity of incalculable power.

The Living Tribunal has 3 "profiles" or visages:
- Equity, the exposed face through which it usually speaks
- Revenge, the half-hooded face on the left
- Necessity, the completely hooded face on the right

http://shdictionary.tripod.com/superheroes/livingtribunal.html

Living Tribunal (Marvel)

The Living Tribunal is a vastly powerful humanoid entity who has existed as long as the universe itself, and whose function is to safeguard the multiverse (the continuum of alternate universes) from an imbalance of mystical forces.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/God.html
God in Marvel Comics


Religion is a central, defining element in human life, and the concept of God or deities holds such a central place in most religious traditions. Thus, it is natural that the subject of God comes up repeatedly in a pop culture medium such as Marvel superhero comics.

Direct portrayals of God, however, are rare in popular entertainment for a variety of reasons. From a story-telling point of view, it is problematic to introduce God as a character into any story, because if one simply relies on God to solve all of a character's problems, the story loses the tension and interest derived from the question about whether and in what way the protagonists will overcome their challenges. Thus, the power of the story is diminished. Furthermore, such direct intervention by God as an all-purpose genie-like problem-solver is contrary to most the doctrines of nearly all religions and personal beliefs and experiences of nearly all believers.

From a pragmatic point of view, because comic book publishers hope to attract buyers from as large a target audience as possible, editors and comic book creators generally limit the specificity of religious content, so as to avoid offending potential readers. Marvel Comics is not unique in that it appears to have either a de facto policy or clearcut editorial policy against directly portraying God.

The journey of the Fantastic Four to Heaven and their subsequent visit with God in Fantastic Four #511 (May 2004) is a rare exception.

Of course there are numerous Marvel comic book characters who believe in God, pray to God, and even appear to experience miracles they attribute to God. But in addition to these "personal testimonies" of mortal characters, there have been many references within Marvel Comics stories indicating that there is indeed a supreme being of the universe.

The Watcher: His only weapon is LoveUatu the Watcher is a member of an ancient alien race thought to be among the wisest and most knowledgeable beings in the universe. Uatu's reference to God, written by Marvel Universe co-creator Stan Lee, is compelling (see below).

Perhaps the most clear confirmations of the existence of a Supreme Being of the Marvel Universe come from the Living Tribunal, who is the most powerful being actually portrayed in the Marvel Universe (aside from God himself). Whereas God himself is rarely ever portrayed in Marvel Comics (or has never actually been portrayed, depending one how one interprets a few "possible" appearances), The Living Tribunal has portrayed with some regularity in cosmic-level stories, and is a firmly established fixture of the Marvel Universe. The Living Tribunal is apparently omnipotent, but claims to be powered by an even greater being, a being the Living Tribunal refers to as the One Above All, i.e., God.

Overt and explicity references to real-world religions and God were rare in comic books during the 1960s (as with many other decades). The "religion taboo" was particularly in force at Marvel during its early days, which is why the scene scripted by Stan Lee in which the Watcher refers explicitly to God is so noticable and memorable. The Watcher is one of the most important supporting characters in the general Marvel Universe. The character's given name is Uatu, and he belongs to an ancient and powerful race of alien beings who have made it their task to "watch" the universe, but to not interfere. The Watcher's status as a wise, quasi-omniprescient being lends weight to his words.

From: Jeffrey Weiss, "Comic-book heroes seldom reveal their faith: Recent revelation of the Thing's religion was a rare moment for pop culture", published in Dallas Morning News, 24 August 2002, re-posted on BeliefNet.com website under headline "Comic Faith: The Thing's Religion Revealed" (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/113/story_11303_1.html; viewed 30 November 2005):

In a Fantastic Four from 1968, a really powerful good guy called the Silver Surfer was acting like a bad guy because he wanted to give all of humanity a common foe that could unite us all in a common purpose.

Two FF members, Mr. Fantastic (a.k.a. Reed Richards) and the Invisible Woman (Sue Richards), are now married and off someplace waiting for the birth of their son. The Watcher, another really powerful character who is usually a good guy, appears and sends Reed off to deal with the Surfer.

The visibly pregnant Sue asks, "But what can he do ... against the all-powerful Silver Surfer?"

"All-powerful?" the Watcher replies. "There is only one who deserves that name. And His only weapon ... is love!"

So how about it, Stan? Is that religious or what?

"I thought that was one of the best lines I ever wrote," he said. "I just thought it was such a beautifully dramatic line. And certainly nobody could find any problems with it."

"Is that religious? If that's religious," he said, "I guess I'm religious."

From: "Living Tribunal" article on Wikipedia website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Tribunal; viewed 19 January 2006):

The Living Tribunal is a fictional character in the Marvel Comics Universe. The Tribunal is an omnipotent entity that is empowered by an unknown force to pass judgment on beings capable of changing the universe and to maintain the 'cosmic balance of power'.

The Living Tribunal oversees all the realities that constitute the Marvel Multiverse, from the mainstream "616" universe to all the alternate realities... and parallel realities, such as Earth X and Squadron Supreme. They are sometimes compared to The Spectre of DC Comics.

...The Tribunal passes judgment on crises that endanger the multiverse... It has been said that there is one who ranks above them, the One Above All... whose will he seeks to carry out. This being, supposedly the God of the Marvel Universe, has never been fully described or displayed, and most likely never will be.

http://www.drstrange.nl/drstrange/sanctum/book/livingtribunal.htm

Living Tribunal

Real Name: Inapplicable
Classification: Abstract entity
Nationality: Inapplicable
Place of Birth: Inapplicable
Occupation: Abstract entity, acting guardian and judge to safeguard the multiverse from imbalances of mystical forces. It will act to prevent one universe from amassing more concentrated mystical power than another, or to prevent a dangerous imbalance between "good" and "evil" mystical forces within a single universe.
Known Relatives: Inapplicable
Affiliations: None
Extent of Education: Inapplicable
Base of Operations: Inapplicable (the Multiverse)
Distinguishing Features: The Living Tribunal is a conceptual being who embodies the principles of balance and justice and who manfests itself to Earth humans as a gigantic humanoid being with yellow skin whose head has three faces and floats above his shoulders, unconnected to them. The three faces represent three sides of the Tribunal's personality. The front face, through which it usually speaks, represents equity. The fully hooded face on the right side of its head stands for necessity. The half-hooded face on the left side of its head stands for just revenge. Beneath the veil over the back of the head there appears to be nothingness. The Tribunal's hands and feet do not have seperate appendages. Its body lacks sexual organs. A bright light shines from its chest. It is not known wheter this is the Tribunal's true form, or if it even has a true form. The form described above may be merely that of a "manifestation-body" (M-body" representing the Tribunal.
Powers: The entity known as the Living Tribunal possesses near-omnipotent powers, the full range and extent of which remain incomprehensible to people of Earth. He possesses an intellect that can survey and study the entire multiverse at once and evaluate the extraordinary amounts of information he thereby receives. The Living Tribunal is a vastly powerful humanoid entity who has existed as long as the universe itself, and whose function is to safeguard the multiverse (the continuum of alternate universes) from an imbalance of mystical forces. Possessing untold power, the Tribunal will act to prevent one of the universes from amassing more concentrated mystical power than any of the others, or upsetting the cosmic balance and threatening the other universes. The Tribunal will also act to prevent a grave imbalance between the mystical forces allied with good and those allied with evil within one universe.



Height: Inapplicable
Weight: Inapplicable
Eyes: Energy emiting
Intelligence: Immeasurable
Strength: Incalculable
Speed: Possibly unlimited
Stamina: Immeasurable
Durability: Totally indestructible
Agility: Metahuman
Reflexes: Metahuman


Abilities: Virtually everything the Living Tribunal sets his will to can be done.
Paraphernalia: Inapplicable
History: The Living Tribunal was created by what some call the Supreme Being. The Living Tribunal seems to be the most supreme being or power in comprehension and has the power to do anything short of its master, whom it calls The One Above All. The Living Tribunal's purpose is to safeguard a number of Multiverses from imbalance and cosmic threat. The Tribunal, like many cosmic beings, uses manifestation bodies either of its own creation or from the universe of manifestations so it truly does not have to be at a specific place, but is rather represented. The true form of the Living Tribunal exists everywhere and does not obey the laws of alternate realities.
Usually the Tribunal leaves matters involving a mystical imbalance affecting only Earth's universe to be monitored by the universe's abstract entities Lord Chaos and Master Order, and to be dealt with by their creation, the In-Betweener.
The Tribunal is willing to obliterate an entire inhabited planet to safeguard an entire universe or the multiverse itself, and is fully capable of doing so by an exercise of his own power. One of the most powerful beings in the multiverse, the Tribunal can turn a star into a supernova with a single force bolt.
The Living Tribunal manifests itself as a being with three faces which represent the three sides of the Tribunal's personality. Its front face, through which it usually speaks, stands for equity. The completely hooded face on the right side of its head represents necessity and the half-hooded face on the left side stands for just revenge. All three sides of the Tribunal's mind must be in agreement when judging a case requiring possible action before the Tribunal can intervene.
The Living Tribunal's first known encounter with a being of Earth was with Earth's sorcerer supreme Doctor Strange. To whom he threatened to destroy Earth inless Strange would put an end to the recent outbreak of evil magical power.
He engaged in battle with Nebulos. When he received some minor aid by Doctor Strange he spared Earth from destruction.
He later met the Galadorian spaceknight Rom and the vastly powerful extradimensional Beyonder.
Confronted the Silver Surfer and the Stranger. This encounter ended with the Tribunal making the Surfer briefly one with the universe.
He then attended Eon's funeral.
The Tribunal was petitioned by Eternity to take action against the Infinity Gauntlet wearing Thanos. But Eternity was refused. Later the Tribunal judged Adam Warlock unfit to wield the Infinity Gauntlet. He ruled that the Infinity Gems were never be able to be used as one. It was Galactus who petitioned against this ruling, he was refused.