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Waverider




Vs





Silver Surfer

Don't know much about Waverider but read his bio and though it seems he may be nery powerful, I dont think he can take the Surfer.

Waverider is an infinity man who can own Surfer. Mider is a hater.

The reason why I say the Surfer is because Waverider is a being of energy. The Surfer can just absorb his energy. Maybe I'm wrong.

why am i a hater cause i know lobo cant beat doomsday oh i hate lobo i guess thats why i owned every since comic of his sept lobo/hitman and the lobo series and rebels as well as legion cause i heard they sucked, and ive never knew about waveriders full wrange of powers, since when is waverider that strong anyway?

isnt anyone going to come defend SS?

um... yay, Silver Surfer...

Joking, Mider. Lighten up.

Waverider for sure.

Silver Surfer

lol! Wave is trans at least. I don't see Surfer working around his time manipulations/time stops.

Waverider.

Nice necro-bump, btw.

Originally posted by Galan007
Waverider.

Nice necro-bump, btw.

How do you see the fight going down personally? Do you think it's close?

Not saying that Surfer cannot possibly win, but I don't think he'd have too many options...

Waverider can absorb and redirect big bang-equivalent energies. He can seemingly manipulate any type of energy-- even Entropy itself. He can completely stop time. He can move FTL. He can travel in between nanoseconds. He can become intangible/incorporeal. He can rapidly reassemble IF he is atomically dispersed. He can see the most likely future of any character. He can summon an infinite army of himself from the timestream to fight an opponent. Etc.

Surfer wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer wins.

Based on?

Galan provided a pretty solid argument for Waverider.

How does him using the power of the crunch to defeat T&A compare to what Wave said done?

Originally posted by Cogito
Based on?

Galan provided a pretty solid argument for Waverider. Surfer beats the hell out of him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer beats the hell out of him.
Solid evidence as always

Originally posted by Cogito
Solid evidence as always Board to the back of the head seems to be quite effective.

Originally posted by Cogito


Solid evidence as always

Waverider.

Originally posted by Golgo13
I cited evidence in the post after.

Originally posted by Galan007
Waverider can absorb and redirect big bang-equivalent energies. He can seemingly manipulate any type of energy-- even Entropy itself.
This is what wins it for WR but PIS/CISless Surfer would still give him hell though.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I cited evidence in the post after.
http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/inigo-montoya.jpg

Originally posted by Cogito
http://gamersagainstbigotry.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/inigo-montoya.jpg I cited evidence ala a tactic Surfer has used before.

Originally posted by zopzop
This is what wins it for WR but PIS/CISless Surfer would still give him hell though.

Pretty much this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I cited evidence ala a tactic Surfer has used before.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Cogito
Precisely. Well then tell me why it won't work.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not saying that Surfer cannot possibly win, but I don't think he'd have too many options...

Waverider can absorb and redirect big bang-equivalent energies. He can seemingly manipulate any type of energy-- even Entropy itself. He can completely stop time. He can move FTL. He can travel in between nanoseconds. He can become intangible/incorporeal. He can rapidly reassemble IF he is atomically dispersed. He can see the most likely future of any character. He can summon an infinite army of himself from the timestream to fight an opponent. Etc.

Nice analysis.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Well then tell me why it won't work.

I'm not going to get into whether it will or won't work (probably wouldn't, becuase Waverider would have no reason not to step out of time).

The point was that a tactic is not evidence. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand what evidence means.

Originally posted by Cogito
I'm not going to get into whether it will or won't work (probably wouldn't, becuase Waverider would have no reason not to step out of time).

The point was that a tactic is not evidence. If you don't understand that, then you don't understand what evidence means. He sure seemed to struggle against Doomsday. This whole powerset style of debating mentality of yours isn't now he is portrayed in comics.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He sure seemed to struggle against Doomsday. This whole powerset style of debating mentality of yours isn't now he is portrayed in comics.

And you would know because you've read all of Waverider's appearances, right?

Originally posted by Cogito
And you would know because you've read all of Waverider's appearances, right? I have read enough. Go ahead and support your case.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I have read enough. Go ahead and support your case.

Ok, you say Surfer hits him with his board. I say Waverider stops time and/or goes intangible. Your turn.

Originally posted by Cogito
Ok, you say Surfer hits him with his board. I say Waverider stops time and/or goes intangible. Your turn. He is too busy being physically pummeled to do so here. Surfer beats him down. /thread

Originally posted by quanchi112
He is too busy being physically pummeled to do so here. Surfer beats him down. /thread

Thought so.

Originally posted by Cogito
Thought so. Well, read comic Waverider comics he doesn't powerset it up like you're trying to do here.

Originally posted by Cogito
And you would know because you've read all of Waverider's appearances, right?

:/ come on.

If Waverider doesn't want to be touched, Surfer isn't touching him:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers36_zps3c222405.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers37_zps16b93782.jpg

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers78_zps72db8e97.jpg

Nor are Surfer's blasts:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers84_zps98d87b1b.jpg

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers50_zpsecdfeef9.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers51_zpsdd08dcc4.jpg

---

Tack on the fact that Waverider can also freeze time:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers43_zps4521a46f.jpg

Manipulate vast amounts of energy, such as entropy and the temporal energy of Vanishing Point's defense systems:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers61_zps96d78893.jpg

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers46_zpse0900ebe.jpg

Operate on an nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers41_zps74610721.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers42_zpsf6ade930.jpg

Travel FTL:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers68_zps3b0de14d.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers69_zpsea191da1.jpg

Summon a limitless army of his future selves from the timestream:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers47_zps67c36de7.jpg

...And I don't see how Surfer is winning... With a board-strike.

Saw all the scans. Is there a scan of Waverider actually fighting and beating someone? From what I've seen of your scans, the only "feat" that was actually done in a fight was his BFR of DD.

It also looked like he got dispersed by Doomsday, tho. Got scans of that?

Also, why is he considered "mid-herald" in the tier list if he is as "powerful" as you say. Again, his powers are quite cheesy, I see the "time stop" to be his most effective method. But just wanna see if it was actually used to beat someone in a fight.

How come Waverider looks like the lead singer of Twisted Sister, Im just saying

Originally posted by the Darkone
How come Waverider looks like the lead singer of Twisted Sister, Im just saying

Because he's bad ass! . J/K.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Saw all the scans. Is there a scan of Waverider actually fighting and beating someone? From what I've seen of your scans, the only "feat" that was actually done in a fight was his BFR of DD.

It also looked like he got dispersed by Doomsday, tho. Got scans of that?

Also, why is he considered "mid-herald" in the tier list if he is as "powerful" as you say. Again, his powers are quite cheesy, I see the "time stop" to be his most effective method. But just wanna see if it was actually used to beat someone in a fight. Waverider is one of the Linear Men. He doesn't involve himself in many 'brawls'-- that'd defeat his purpose. He safeguards the timestream w/o directly interfering in it(most of the time, of course.) Aside from that, I posed several scans of what he can(and has) done against elite heralds like Superman, Captain Atom, Shazam and Lobo, so what's the issue here?

H/P DD 'beat' WR by canceling out his energies. Don't see how that's pertinent here either? H/P DD was a solid trans-tier+ character of whom pummeled Darkseid as though he were a weak feeb.

Lmao. I've done far more that just "talk" about how powerful WR is-- I've provided scans to back up my 'claims'. So technically, WR is as powerful as DC says. As for the tiers thread: who cares?

Originally posted by Galan007
Waverider is one of the Linear Men. He doesn't involve himself in many 'brawls'-- that'd defeat his purpose. He safeguards the timestream w/o directly interfering in it(most of the time, of course.) Aside from that, I posed several scans of what he can(and has) done against elite heralds like Superman, Captain Atom, Shazam and Lobo, so what's the issue here?

The only thing I'm seeing in the scans, so far (when he got pitted against other characters), is him basically "time freezing" Lobo, dodging Captain Marvel (via teleportation or something) and "phasing" thru attacks and freezing time around Superman as well as being unaffected by heat vision and eye blasts. Impressive, no doubt. But I seem to be missing the context on why the scans provided would mean an auto-win.

Of course, the time freeze will be an awesome ability to use against the Surfer. And based on this ability, alone, would be arguably something that can make this fight one sided. I was actually curious if he's used it to beat someone in the past in a fight (KO'd someone, not just rendering them unable to fight him). Also, hasn't Surfer fought unhindered in a black hole before? Isn't time kinda wonky inside one of those?

Originally posted by Galan007
H/P DD 'beat' WR by canceling out his energies. Don't see how that's pertinent here either? H/P DD was a solid trans-tier+ character of whom pummeled Darkseid as though he were a weak feeb.

Was just wondering how it happened as the guy seemed to be able to just freeze time. How the heck was HP DD even able to touch him? If it's possible to cancel out his energies, wouldn't it be possible for the Surfer to do the same? Scans would be nice to establish context as I don't really know much about WR.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lmao. I've done far more that just "talk" about how powerful WR is-- I've provided scans to back up my 'claims'. So technically, WR is as powerful as DC says. As for the tiers thread: who cares?

No one's accusing you of just "talking", dude. I'm genuinely curious about the character. No need to get defensive.

I know you provided scans, it's just that, as a casual reader, all I saw were abilities used outside of combat. And isn't "arguing powerset" kinda the wrong way to go around these forums? From what I've seen, we need to establish how a character uses his abilities in a fight and use that to determine how he'd do against a specific opponent.

It is my understanding that the tiers were "established" via forum consensus garnered from a long period of featuring the character or at least debating about them. Just wondering why he wasn't placed higher.

Also, I'm not decided on who wins/loses here. That is why I need more information on the character.

Originally posted by Galan007
...And I don't see how Surfer is winning... With a board-strike.

Dude, don't bother. Quan already proved it, you're just wasting your metaphorical breath.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The only thing I'm seeing in the scans, so far (when he got pitted against other characters), is him basically "time freezing" Lobo, dodging Captain Marvel (via teleportation or something) and "phasing" thru attacks and freezing time around Superman as well as being unaffected by heat vision and eye blasts. Impressive, no doubt. But I seem to be missing the context on why the scans provided would mean an auto-win.

Of course, the time freeze will be an awesome ability to use against the Surfer. And based on this ability, alone, would be arguably something that can make this fight one sided. I was actually curious if he's used it to beat someone in the past in a fight (KO'd someone, not just rendering them unable to fight him). Also, hasn't Surfer fought unhindered in a black hole before? Isn't time kinda wonky inside one of those? I feel like you're arguing just to argue. I posted several scans that showcase what WR can(and has) done. If you don't want to accept them as viable in a vs. battle for whatever reason, that's on you. I'm not going to involve myself in that side of things.

Time-stop=incapacitated Surfer=WR wins. It can literally be that simple if it needs to be.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Was just wondering how it happened as the guy seemed to be able to just freeze time. How the heck was HP DD even able to touch him? If it's possible to cancel out his energies, wouldn't it be possible for the Surfer to do the same? Scans would be nice to establish context as I don't really know much about WR. I'm not going to theorize whether or not Surfer is capable of mimicking DD's haxxed adapt-on-the-fly ability. Surfer is not HP DD.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No one's accusing you of just "talking", dude. I'm genuinely curious about the character. No need to get defensive.

I know you provided scans, it's just that, as a casual reader, all I saw were abilities used outside of combat. And isn't "arguing powerset" kinda the wrong way to go around these forums? From what I've seen, we need to establish how a character uses his abilities in a fight and use that to determine how he'd do against a specific opponent.

It is my understanding that the tiers were "established" via forum consensus garnered from a long period of featuring the character or at least debating about them. Just wondering why he wasn't placed higher. I'm not getting defensive. It just seems as though you're going to argue regardless of what I post, and I don't really see the need to get involved in that circle.

Originally posted by Galan007
I feel like you're arguing just to argue. I posted several scans that showcase what WR can(and has) done. If you don't want to accept them as viable in a vs. battle for whatever reason, that's on you. I'm not going to involve myself in that side of things.

This is a debating forum (or at least I thought it was), isn't arguing supposed to be what we do here?

I just see a lot of ppl requiring evidence within a combat scenario before certain "feats" would be acceptable as a means for winning. I don't understand why WR would be suddenly exempt from this rule.

The scans you posted were impressive and all, but they were mostly defensive abilities. Time Stop, phasing, etc., those can prevent you from losing a fight. But they won't let you win one. What does WR have in offensive abilities that he's used successfully within his Time Stop?

Originally posted by Galan007
Time-stop=incapacitated Surfer=WR wins. It can literally be that simple if it needs to be.

"Incapacitating" Surfer via time stop would be a stalemate wouldn't it? Surfer's not hurting him, he's not hurting Surfer. WR has to show the offensive ability to KO Surfer while he has him in this state, and it has to be that he WOULD do this in-character.

And it is arguable that Surfer would be eternally time stopped (has WR even eternally time stopped someone before or has it always had some sort of duration?) and is it even within the character for WR to eternally time stop someone?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not going to theorize whether or not Surfer is capable of mimicking DD's haxxed adapt-on-the-fly ability. Surfer is not HP DD.

"Feat-to-feat" versatility-wise, I'd bet on Surfer more than I'd bet on HP DD. HP is much more physically powerful, true. But I wouldn't put it past Surfer to find a means to counter a time stop or find a means to disrupt WR's body.

I mean, if "time stop" was such a go-to ability for WR in a fight, why didn't he outright used it on DD for the easy win (or did he? like I said, I'd love the scans of the whole thing as I have limited info on WR).

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not getting defensive. It just seems as though you're going to argue regardless of what I post, and I don't really see the need to get involved in that circle.

I don't do circular debates, man. I approach things as logically as I can. It's just that, while you have posted scans, the scans themselves do not really prove conclusively that WR would win this IMO.

For a character to win, he has to:

1) have a method to beat said character.

2) prove that this "method" is in-character for him to do. I mean you have ppl arguing that Surfer would never sharpen his board and decapitate ppl, it's obviously within his "powerset" to do, he just doesn't do it due to his character. WR has to be able to prove the same thing.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I don't do circular debates, man. Quite Ironic, given that you're trying to preform circular argumentation in this very post(whether you realize it or not.)

Anyway, WR has preformed time-stops. He has shown immunity to physical AND energy-based attacks. He has operated on a nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis. He has manipulated an array of energies. Etc.

In short: WR has demonstrated the ability to incapacitate Surfer, at the very least(freezing him in time constitutes a forum win, btw.) Arguing for "KO feats" as if none of the aforementioned matters borders on ridiculous. So again: not going to indulge you there.

Originally posted by Galan007
Quite Ironic, given that you're trying to preform circular argumentation in this very post(whether you realize it or not.)

Only because I feel like my points really weren't addressed. Up to you what you wanna do, tho. Just wanted to let you know that I feel like your logic has quite a few holes IMO. But if you don't wanna waste your time arguing it, then I'll prolly just go look for some other thread (I'm sick of Superman/Thor threads, tbh).

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, WR has preformed time-stops. He has shown immunity to physical AND energy-based attacks. He has operated on a nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis. He has manipulated an array of energies. Etc.

Time stop is a good strategy, like I said, but has a few holes in it. Surfer would be able to bypass his immunity if DD was ble to, IMO. Surfer has also operated within nanoseconds and prolly has better/wider energy manipulation "feats" (I don't even think it's that close based on the scans I've seen tbh but this could just be due to my limited knowledge or WR). Also, many of these weren't really done in a fight scenario...

Originally posted by Galan007
In short: WR has demonstrated the ability to incapacitate Surfer, at the very least(freezing him in time constitutes a forum win, btw.) Arguing for "KO feats" as if none of the aforementioned matters borders on ridiculous. So again: not going to indulge you there.

"Incapacitated" relative to WR. I mean, if a character (like Flash) could perceive things far faster than his opponent (and would literally spend years within his relative percieved time before a second even passes in his opponent's time) would it mean he auto wins (even before he touches his opponent) vs 8th Day Juggernaut (or whatever that uber version of his was, don't remember too well) just because, to him, Jugs is "frozen in time"?

Also, it can be argued that Surfer would be able to eventually break out of it or at least do something about it.

How is asking "how exactly does WR win?" ridiculous? You provided scans and powersets, should I just take it at that and consider all my questions answered "just because"?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
"Incapacitated" relative to WR. I mean, if a character (like Flash) could perceive things far faster than his opponent (and would literally spend years within his relative percieved time before a second even passes in his opponent's time) would it mean he auto wins (even before he touches his opponent) vs 8th Day Juggernaut just because, to him, Jugs is frozen in time? Bad analogy. WR can stop time completely. There's no time dilation going on secondary to moving super-duper fast(ala your Flash analogy.) Time is literally (not figuratively or relatively) stopped/halted/not moving.

If time were stopped around Surfer, he would effectively be incapacitated. Thus, WR wins.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
But if you don't wanna waste your time arguing it, then I'll prolly just go look for some other thread (I'm sick of Superman/Thor threads, tbh).Sounds good to me.

Originally posted by Galan007
Bad analogy. WR stops time completely around him. There's no time dilation going on secondary to moving super-duper fast(ala your Flash analogy.) Time is literally (not figuratively or relatively) stopped/halted/not moving.

If time were stopped around Surfer, he would effectively be incapacitated. Thus, WR wins.

What's the difference, tho? Whether it be relatively or literally, what you're suggesting is that as soon as the time stop happens, it's an auto-win even before WR touches Surfer. What difference does this have with my Flash analogy? Time is stopped. Relative to WR's perception, Surfer isn't moving. Relative to Flash's perception, Juggernaut is not moving. Neither is incapable of fighting/helpless, just prevented from attacking during the duration. WR needs to prove that he can hurt the Surfer during this window.

Also, like I said, has WR done this to incapacitate an opponent indefinitely? If this was such a go-to ability, why didn't he use it on HP DD?

Also, it's not as if Surfer hasn't sensed thru time before or time traveled or warped time/space or functioned within an area where time is wonky (a black hole).

I don't recall Surfer being attacked via a time stop as the only persons I know who did that in Marvel when fighting has been Odin and the Keeper (a future Quantum bands wearing version of the Surfer) so it's hard to come up with evidences to prove otherwise as I don't recall Surfer ever being attacked by a time stop (I'll ask the Surfer experts if he did). But there is evidence that he CAN manipulate/affect chronal energies so it is plausible.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sounds good to me.

Edit. Didn't see this. Fine, will pursue other threads then. No hard feelings.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
What's the difference, tho? Whether it be relatively or literally, what you're suggesting is that as soon as the time stop happens, it's an auto-win even before WR touches Surfer. What difference does this have with my Flash analogy? Time is stopped. Relative to WR's perception, Surfer isn't moving. Relative to Flash's perception, Juggernaut is not moving. Neither is incapable of fighting/helpless, just prevented from attacking during the duration. WR needs to prove that he can hurt the Surfer during this window.

Also, like I said, has WR done this to incapacitate an opponent indefinitely? If this was such a go-to ability, why didn't he use it on HP DD?

Also, it's not as if Surfer hasn't sensed thru time before or time traveled or warped time/space or functioned within an area where time is wonky (a black hole).

I don't recall Surfer being attacked via a time stop as the only persons I know who did that in Marvel when fighting has been Odin and the Keeper (a future Quantum bands wearing version of the Surfer) so it's hard to come up with evidences to prove otherwise as I don't recall Surfer ever being attacked by a time stop (I'll ask the Surfer experts if he did). But there is evidence that he CAN manipulate/affect chronal energies so it is plausible. You're trying to split hairs here.

This is a very simple concept: time dilation secondary to super-speed=/=time actually stopping. Juggernaut might appear to be frozen relative to Flash's speed, but that does not mean time is literally stopped around him-- Juggy is still capable of moving in time as freely as he normally would.

Conversely, WR doesn't simply dilate time in order to give the perception of time stopping-- he literally stops the flow of time entirely. eg. if it is 1:56:10pm it is going to stay 1:56:10pm for everyone, until WR allows time to flow again.

Because of this blatant difference, time dilation would not equate to a incapacitation win on KMC. Time stopping would.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're trying to split hairs here.

This is a very simple concept: time dilation secondary to super-speed=/=tiOme actually stopping. Juggernaut might appear to be frozen relative to Flash's speed, but that does not mean time is literally stopped around him-- Juggy is still capable of moving in time as freely as he normally would.

Conversely, WR doesn't simply dilate time in order to give the perception of time stopping-- he literally stops the flow of time entirely. eg. if it is 1:56:10pm it is going to stay 1:56:10pm for everyone, until WR allows time to flow again.

Because of this blatant difference, time dilation would not equate to a incapacitation win on KMC. Time stopping would.

Thought we were done here?

Excuse me, but isn't "splitting hairs" (to argue about very small differences or unimportant details) what you're doing and not me?

Time is relative to the observer. You're trying to differentiate "time dilation" and "time stop" and making one a win and the other not a win when effectively speaking, for the purposes of a forum debate, they're both (effectively) the same. What difference is a complete stop vs an effective slowdown of years when discussing a forum fight which would/should last no more than minutes or hours?

It's practically the same.

Edit. Plus you have to admit, that a time stop holding the Surfer indefinitely would be extremely arguable based on what he can do.

Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.


If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

Originally posted by Galan007
Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.

If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

Again: Time is relative to the observer.

To Flash, Juggernaut is effectively frozen (not thinking or has thoughts so slow it doesn't even begin to register within the moments Flash can interact), from Juggernaut's point of view, he is moving freely in time.

If WR "time freezes" Juggernaut, he is frozen in time (to WR). But from Juggernaut's point of view, he is moving freely in time.

In every practical sense, as forum fights go, that is exactly the same.

You keep saying that I have "to read up on these topics a bit more" when all you're doing is using basic semantics to differentiate two things that are effectively completely the same.

Edit. "Time dilation" or "time freezing" would render, to the time-stoppers/dilater's perception, the opponent effectively incapable of functioning within their relative observable time frame. To the frozen/dilated individual perception of time, he is still fully functional. Time is relative to the observer. How are you not failing to grasp that basic concept?

Originally posted by Galan007
Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.


If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

Heck, in order for your time stop "incapacitation" method to be viable, it has to hold Surfer indefinitely.

From this scan, it seems that time stopping requires some effort for WR to maintain (with some timelines being more "insistent" than others).

http://i.imgur.com/vVmTAZJ.jpg

Now, I know this happened in limbo (where time could have different rules) but it does seem to allude that he needs to maintain a time stop consciously in order to maintain it. Has he ever maintained a time stop indefinitely?

He wouldn't need to hold it that long in the first place. Anyway, that is just one of WR tactics that could work.

Originally posted by Golgo13
He wouldn't need to hold it that long in the first place. Anyway, that is just one of WR tactics that could work.

Why wouldn't he? The argument here is that a "time freeze" is a "win due to incapacitation" even though he hasn't even touched the Surfer. But when compared to how Flash would be vs the Juggernaut, there seems to be a difference due to duration or the fact that eventually Juggernaut would be able to interact within Flash's perception because he is not "completely" frozen. Not really the type or reasoning I find palatable.

What other tactics are there?

I mean, from the reasoning here, it looks like 10000000000000000x Guardian amped Superboy Primes would automatically lose to WR or Odin due to "time stop incapacitation". Am I hearing this right?

(Dammit, too late to edit.)

TBH, not sure about my SBP example, tho, as I'm not that familiar with all his appearances so I'm not sure if he's had time-punching "showings" but you get my drift.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Why wouldn't he? The argument here is that a "time freeze" is a "win due to incapacitation" even though he hasn't even touched the Surfer. But when compared to how Flash would be vs the Juggernaut, there seems to be a difference due to duration or the fact that eventually Juggernaut would be able to interact within Flash's perception because he is not "completely" frozen. Not really the type or reasoning I find palatable.

What other tactics are there?

I mean, from the reasoning here, it looks like 10000000000000000x Guardian amped Superboy Primes would automatically lose to WR or Odin due to "time stop incapacitation". Am I hearing this right?

Time and energy manipulation. If Surfer has fought beings in WR's class that can manipulate time, please show. If not, I'm just not seeing it.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Time and energy manipulation. If Surfer has fought beings in WR's class that can manipulate time, please show. If not, I'm just not seeing it.

How exactly does saying "time manipulation" make it a win for WR outside of the arguable time freeze?

And energy manipulation vs the Surfer? Care to show "feats" that put him anywhere near Surfer's top "feats"?

Nothing Surfer can do to a time freeze. Once he has Surfer in it, he can manipulate his energies and Surfer. JMO.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Heck, in order for your time stop "incapacitation" method to be viable, it has to hold Surfer indefinitely.

From this scan, it seems that time stopping requires some effort for WR to maintain (with some timelines being more "insistent" than others).

http://i.imgur.com/vVmTAZJ.jpg

Now, I know this happened in limbo (where time could have different rules) but it does seem to allude that he needs to maintain a time stop consciously in order to maintain it. Has he ever maintained a time stop indefinitely? Why did you crop that panel and remove it from its proper context?

Waverider was only 'struggling' to freeze time in that panel, because he was freezing ALL time throughout the ENTIRE limbo zone(a place where time was already unstable to begin with):
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers44_zpsf32ba192.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers45_zps344a44f8.jpg
He froze an entire limbo dimension in time. Very few characters(if any) below Skyfather-level have temporal manipulation feats on that level.

So yeah... Freezing Surfer in time should absolutely work.

SS goes into hyperspace to get out of time stop.

Then he has sex with Galan's mouth.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Nothing Surfer can do to a time freeze. Once he has Surfer in it, he can manipulate his energies and Surfer. JMO.

When has WR ever done this in a fight? We don't argue powersets here.

I mean if Surfer's frozen in time, how is his energy even going to be manipulated? It's not that he's simply paralyzed, his body (and thus energy is literally frozen in time as well). Is WR going to somehow "exclude" Surfer's energies and then manipulate it?

Edit. And yeah, it's arguable whether or not Surfer can do nothing to a time stop.

Originally posted by Mindset
SS goes into hyperspace to get out of time stop.

Then he has sex with Galan's mouth. Surfer has no dick.

Concession accepted.

But I do.

Prepare yourself, queer.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/louie.gif

You can't change the rules after they've already been established, you queer.

Originally posted by Galan007
Why did you crop that panel and remove it from its proper context?

Waverider was only 'struggling' to freeze time in that panel, because he was freezing ALL time throughout the ENTIRE limbo zone(a place where time was already unstable to begin with):
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers44_zpsf32ba192.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers45_zps344a44f8.jpg
He froze an entire limbo dimension in time. Very few characters(if any) below Skyfather-level have temporal manipulation feats on that level.

So yeah... Freezing Surfer in time should absolutely work.

Again, extent is the only difference here. It alludes to some conscious effort at maintaining a time stop. The larger the area and the more "insistent" the time in that area, the larger the effort. A contained "freeze"(I mean how does that even work? Wouldn't freezing a small contained area while allowing the rest of the universe move kinda rip that area out of the proper time flow?) might not take a lot of effort at all, but he can't maintain it forever. Unless you have on panel "showings" of WR holding a time freeze indefinitely, my point stands.

Also, posted something prior to that, would like a reply to that, too, please.

Originally posted by Galan007
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/louie.gif

You can't change the rules after they've already been established, you queer. My loins are not bound by man's rules, ya homo.

Originally posted by Galan007
Why did you crop that panel and remove it from its proper context?

Waverider was only 'struggling' to freeze time in that panel, because he was freezing ALL time throughout the ENTIRE limbo zone(a place where time was already unstable to begin with):
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers44_zpsf32ba192.jpg
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers45_zps344a44f8.jpg
He froze an entire limbo dimension in time. Very few characters(if any) below Skyfather-level have temporal manipulation feats on that level.

So yeah... Freezing Surfer in time should absolutely work.

Uber feat. Was that Surtur they were fighting?

Basically, via the logic you're presenting, WR would be able to solo an UNLIMITED number of ANY Trans character with no known Time-manipulation resistance "feats" (a rare enough ability to find anywhere). Unlimited Thanos', unlimited SBP's, unlimited DP Tyrants as Surfer has better time-manipulation/perception "feats" than any of them

Am i hearing this right?

Originally posted by Galan007
Surfer has no dick.

Concession accepted.

Leave your wiener out of this.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, extent is the only difference here. It alludes to some conscious effort at maintaining a time stop. The larger the area and the more "insistent" the time in that area, the larger the effort. A contained "freeze"(I mean how does that even work? Wouldn't freezing a small contained area while allowing the rest of the universe move kinda rip that area out of the proper time flow?) might not take a lot of effort at all, but he can't maintain it forever. Unless you have on panel "showings" of WR holding a time freeze indefinitely, my point stands.

Also, posted something prior to that, would like a reply to that, too, please. Freezing time around a single individual=/=freezing time across an entire limbo dimension. The latter is unquestionably more difficult/impressive than the former(by a vast margin.) Just because I struggle to press 400lbs, certainly doesn't mean I'll struggle to press 50lbs.

Not trying to be a dick, but your rationale/logic here sucks, tbh. It literally makes no sense at all. I also find it... Bothersome that you cropped a single panel from a page and attempted to ignore/pass-off the context behind the entire scene(you didn't think I'd catch that, but I did.) Hopefully it wasn't intentional, because if so, that's abhi-level stuff right there.

Originally posted by Mindset
My loins are not bound by man's rules, ya homo. Eww. Loins?

Reported.

Originally posted by Galan007
Eww. Loins?

Reported. Snitch.

I raping you twice as long for that

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/when+fj+thumbs+down+my+OC.+not+my+content_f433f1_3359191.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Freezing time around a single individual=/=freezing time across an entire limbo dimension. The latter is unquestionably more difficult/impressive than the former(by a vast margin.) Just because I struggle to press 400lbs, certainly doesn't mean I'll struggle to press 50lbs.

You're not getting my point.

Try lifting that 50 lbs. Hold it up for 1 minute. Then hold it for 10 mins. Now hold it for an hour. Just because something is easy to do, doesn't mean you can do it indefinitely. The only difference is how long due to the "extent" of the difficulty.

Which is my point when I said:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, extent is the only difference here.The larger the area and the more "insistent" the time in that area, the larger the effort. A contained "freeze"(I mean how does that even work? Wouldn't freezing a small contained area while allowing the rest of the universe move kinda rip that area out of the proper time flow?) might not take a lot of effort at all, but he can't maintain it forever.

Hope that clears that up.

Originally posted by Galan007
Not trying to be a dick, but your rationale/logic here sucks, tbh. It literally makes no sense at all.

I also don't understand why you don't seem to get where my logic is coming from. I understand where you're coming from, but you seem to be in complete refusal to accept anything I say, almost to the point of simply glossing thru what I post and picking the parts you don't agree with and ignoring the contexts in which I provided to explain my logic.

Case in point:

Originally posted by Galan007
I also find it... Bothersome that you cropped a single panel from a page and attempted to ignore/pass-off the context behind the entire scene(you didn't think I'd catch that, but I did.) Hopefully it wasn't intentional, because if so, that's abhi-level stuff right there.

Seriously?

You're getting:

"Trying to hide the context of the scene and hoping you don't catch it" (I find that laughable since it's pretty obvious that you know more about WR's "feats" that I do, I find it insulting that you think I'd be stupid enough to pull something like that).

And not:

"He cropped it to not clutter his post and to emphasize the panel of the page that proves his point."

This seems to indicate that you've already made up your mind about what my intentions are in posting in this thread.

Especially when I said this:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Now, I know this happened in limbo (where time could have different rules) but it does seem to allude that he needs to maintain a time stop consciously in order to maintain it. Has he ever maintained a time stop indefinitely?

As the term "entire limbo dimension" wasn't specifically mentioned in the pages of the scans I found you'd forgive me for not mentioning it.

Surfer doesn't have to be permanently frozen to be defeated. According to forum rules, incapacitation of more than 10 minutes or such can be counted as defeat too.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer doesn't have to be permanently frozen to be defeated. According to forum rules, incapacitation of more than 10 minutes or such can be counted as defeat too.

Where in the rules is that? Actually looked for it. Couldn't find it.

Also, I already explained this with my "Flash" analogy a few pages back. Time is relative to the observer. What is 1 second to Juggernaut could be years for the Flash. If we were to use this kind of logic, then any fight with Flash would be an "incapacitation" due to the 10 mins (relative to Flash's perception) have elapsed.

Incapacitation (in my belief) would require that 10 minutes pass between both characters wherein one is rendered completely helpless or at least 10 minutes would have passed to an outside observer.

The danger of allowing this kind of logic is that ANY person can simply say "character X can time stop, thus, he can beat 10000000000x of any other character without even touching the other because he can maintain his "time stop" for about <insert forum approved time here>. I just find that grossly silly and would be a HUGE loophole for the forums in case it is allowed.

Also, it's arguable that a "time stop" would hold Surfer for long as he has his own time senses/manipulation "feats", tho, nowhere as good as WR's.

You just stated that the feat "happened in limbo." You neglected to mention that the only reason WR was 'struggling' in that panel is because he was stopping time across the entire fraggin dimension at the time. Like I said: this perceived deception on your end probably wasn't intentional(given your cool demeanor, I doubt it was) but you have to admit: from my point of view, it looked pretty damn suspicious at first. Apologies if it wasn't.

Oh and fyi, WR doesn't have to stop time indefinitely around Surfer to constitute a forum win-- just long enough for Surfer to be considered 'incapacitated'(which has been defined loosely as: "a reasonable amount of time" by Bada in the past.) If he can halt time across an entire limbo dimension for a whole issue, he can certainly stop time around Surfer alone for a reasonable(key word) amount of time. If need be, I can post more scans of WR stopping time on a large scale(for extended periods of time) to help concrete my case.

Originally posted by Galan007
You just stated that the feat "happened in limbo." You neglected to mention that the only reason WR was 'struggling' in that panel is because he was stopping time across the entire phucking dimension at the time. Like I said: this perceived deception on your end probably wasn't intentional(given your cool demeanor, I doubt it was) but you have to admit: from my point of view, it looked pretty damn suspicious at first. I have to remember, though, that not everyone 'debates' like abhi.

Well, I didn't know about the whole "limbo dimension", kinda hard to get that with just 2 pages of said "feat". I DID say (or at least strongly alluded to it) I was getting my info from scans due to not having any comics with WR appearances on hand.

I try to approach things as logically as possible and (outside of h1 or ppl who outright flame me for no reason) I give the people I debate as much respect as possible in order to understand, learn and integrate new debating techniques and logical approaches. Tho, granted, I'm not perfect.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh and fyi, WR doesn't have to stop time indefinitely around Surfer to constitute a forum win-- just long enough for Surfer to be considered 'incapacitated'(which is usually a standard 10-count, and/or a "reasonable amount of time." If he can halt time across an entire limbo dimension for an whole issue, he can certainly stop time around Surfer alone for 10 seconds.

To clarify, I've already stated that I feel like Time Stop is the best strat WR has going for him in this fight. And IF it is viable as a legal forum win, then it's a good chance that this (and any matchup featuring Waverider, Zoom, Odin and Keeper) would be pretty much one sided even against a limitless number of equally-powered opponents. A huge exploitable loophole, IMO.

That is why I dislike the whole "I can stop time thus I can win against any opponent (and any number of said opponent) without even touching them" way of logic. I've always seen as time being relative to the observer and any kind of fight with a time limit needs to have said time limit pass for both characters within their relative perceptions of time not just for one.

Edit. I strongly doubt "incapacitation" is a 10-count, tho. That would be a KO IMO. :P

Originally posted by Nibedicus
To clarify, I've already stated that I feel like TIme Stop is the best strat WR has going for him in this fight. And if it IS viable as a legal forum win, then it's a good chance that this (and any matchup featuring Waverider, Odin and Keeper) would be pretty much one sided even against a limitless number of equally-powered opponents. A huge exploitable loophole, IMO.

That is why I dislike the whole "I can stop time thus I can win against any opponent (and any number of said opponent) without even touching them" way of logic. I've always seen as time being relative to the observer and any kind of fight with a time limit needs to have said time limit pass for both characters within their relative perceptions of time not just for one. Time-stopping will always be the go-to forum tactic for ANY character capable of doing so(just look at any thread with The Keeper in it, for example.) And normally, I wouldn't try to blanket a character's specific abilities across the board(I'm not fond of no limits fallacies.) However, in the case of WR, his temporal abilities have proven sufficient to manipulate even the likes of ZH Parallax:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16180652/36_Zero_Hour_00_Page_26.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16180653/36_Zero_Hour_00_Page_27.jpg.html
So I feel confident in assuming that beating a herald-level character via time-manip is well within his power. As I mentioned above: if need be, I can also post several additional scans of WR easily stopping time on a large scale for extended periods of time to help solidify my case..?


added scans.

Originally posted by Galan007
Time-stopping will always be the go-to forum tactic for ANY character capable of doing so(just look at any thread with The Keeper in it, for example.) And normally, I wouldn't try to blanket a character's specific abilities across the board(I'm not fond of no limits fallacies.) However, in the case of WR, his temporal manipulation has proven sufficient to manipulate even the likes of ZH Parallax:
http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/powers76_zps11b06932.jpg

Yeah, but I think difference would be that the "time stop" ability used in those arguments were just a form of opening up their opponents to a finishing assault, not using it to create a "forum win via technicality". Or at least it should be.

And as I said, if WR had the "showings" that would allow him to put down the Surfer within the span of his time freeze, then I'm perfectly ok with that.

Originally posted by Galan007
...So I feel confident in assuming that beating a herald-level character via time-stoppage is well within his power. As I mentioned above: if need be, I can also post several additional scans of WR easily stopping time on a large scale for extended periods of time to help solidify my case..?

Well, I'm not arguing against WR being able to pull a time stop against the Surfer, made if perfectly clear that this is indeed, a very viable tactic. No arguments there. So I don't think posting wide-area time freezes would be necessary.

My argument is just that I don't see a "time freeze" as a true "incapacitation". And I also feel that, eventually, the Surfer (due to his "feats" should be able to get out of it. Not quickly, but eventually. I see time freezes as more a form of BFR, if anything, tbh (as the frozen character no longer shares the same "chronal" space within the battlefield as the time freezer) and the rule should be "for as long as the BFR'd individual can return to the battlefield within a reasonable amount of time".

Then again, that line of thought has its own flaws as well.

Originally posted by Galan007
Eww. Loins?

Reported.

Reported for not answering my question.

sneer

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yeah, but I think difference would be that the "time stop" ability used in those arguments were just a form of opening up their opponents to a finishing assault, not using it to create a "forum win via technicality". Or at least it should be.

And as I said, if WR had the "showings" that would allow him to put down the Surfer within the span of his time freeze, then I'm perfectly ok with that.



Well, I'm not arguing against WR being able to pull a time stop against the Surfer, made if perfectly clear that this is indeed, a very viable tactic. No arguments there. So I don't think posting wide-area time freezes would be necessary.

My argument is just that I don't see a "time freeze" as a true "incapacitation". And I also feel that, eventually, the Surfer (due to his "feats" should be able to get out of it. Not quickly, but eventually. I see time freezes as more a form of BFR, if anything, tbh (as the frozen character no longer shares the same "chronal" space within the battlefield as the time freezer) and the rule should be "for as long as the BFR'd individual can return to the battlefield within a reasonable amount of time".

Then again, that line of thought has its own flaws as well. If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to manipulate ZH Parallax, they would unquestionably be powerful enough to work on Surfer. If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to gesturely stop time around Superman:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16187168/02-Superman_v2_Annual_03-09.jpg.html
They would unquestionably be powerful enough to stop time around Surfer.

And yes, stopping time around an opponent literally defines incapacitation, as they cannot do anything once frozen. An utterly immobilized opponent is an utterly incapacitated opponent. Period/end of story. Having said that, I've provided evidence to prove my case. You've really provided nothing but personal conjecture on Surfer's behalf. There is no reason at all for me to continue this, tbh... It's obviously going nowhere.

Originally posted by Galan007
If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to manipulate ZH Parallax, they would unquestionably be powerful enough to work on Surfer. If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to gesturely stop time around Superman:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16187168/02-Superman_v2_Annual_03-09.jpg.html
They would unquestionably be powerful enough to stop time around Surfer.

And yes, stopping time around an opponent literally defines incapacitation, as they cannot do anything once frozen. An utterly immobilized opponent is an utterly incapacitated opponent. Period/end of story. Having said that, I've provided evidence to prove my case. You've really provided nothing but personal conjecture on Surfer's behalf. There is no reason at all for me to continue this, tbh... It's obviously going nowhere.

Don't know why you would need to mention temporal abilities when I've already agreed multiple times that WR's time freeze would obviously work on the Surfer. Yes, you provided proof of how WR's temporal abilities would work, it's kinda moot as there was never a contention on this point. shrug

The meaning of incapacitation isn't even in contention either. Tho, I will disagree with yours and point out as I see an "incapacitation" in the forums as "rendering someone helpless" and that WR as more like "stalling the fight" than rendering the Surfer helpless in this scenario. But you are welcome to your opinion on what it means, tho.

But what is really in contention is what "defines" an "incapacitation win" or if such a condition would even be applicable in this case.

Firstly, I've checked the rules over. There is no mention of the "10-count" or "10-minute" rule OR an "incapacitation rule" for that matter. If there was, I must have missed it during my multiple perusals of the rules and would like to be pointed to it, if possible. TBH, I've never really heard of the "incapacitation" win until now.

Secondly, the conditions of a "time stop" is rather unique. As I've mentioned multiple times, it is a generally accepted truth that "time is relative to the observer". You can claim that X amount of time has elapsed wherein Waverider has "held the Surfer". But to be more accurate, only X amount of time has elapsed within the perception of WR, to the Surfer and to the affected environment, no time has passed. Which I would then bring back my Flash analogy, does having time pass a certain way within one character's perception (and not the other) mean that the other character loses?

Furthermore, there is also a slight contention on whether such an attack would be able to hold the Surfer for long.

Surfer has demonstrated the ability to "sense thru time" one example is when he mentioned that he can see thru "past, present and future" as shown in Annihilators #3 (I think it was 3) via his cosmic awareness. He has also demonstrated in more than one occasion the ability to travel thru time or warp time/space and has even managed to fight (unhindered and unaffected by the time dilation found within) from within a black hole. It is my contention that it is within the realm of possibility that the Surfer would eventually sense the "time stop" occurring around him and use the PC to disrupt the energies that WR is using against him or at least shield himself from such a tactic.

One thing I do agree on is that this debate has possibly started to become circular in nature. Fact of the matter is, I feel like you would cling to a winning condition that is not found in the main rules, which would mean that it is more of a "forum understanding" than an actual technical rule (if it's there, I really can't find it, but I could be wrong and would like to withdraw this statement in advance if you happen to point it out ) . And if such a "understanding of the rules" were applied in this specific scenario, it would have dire implications for any debate that includes any kind of time stopper or speedster. Something I don't think I could ever agree to in the spirit of how debates/fights here should work (IMO).

Perhaps if we can possibly agree on one thing: That the Surfer can be frozen by WR but WR cannot or would not KO or hurt the Surfer in this state and agree to disagree on the other aspects, then we can move on to other threads?

Just agree to disagree. lol

Yeah, didn't even bother to read the 'wall-o-text'.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, didn't even bother to read the 'wall-o-text'.



That hurts, man.

excellent

weep

Galan is a cruel bastard.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, didn't even bother to read the 'wall-o-text'. Heartless.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Surfer doesn't have to be permanently frozen to be defeated. According to forum rules, incapacitation of more than 10 minutes or such can be counted as defeat too.

Is there any top tier that can get the majority over WR?

Bump

waverider barely fight

but based on his implied power level he should be above surfer

Waverider has done what exactly when it comes to battle feats?

Originally posted by Thinkerer
Waverider has done what exactly when it comes to battle feats?