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Messiah means one who is anooited with oil when I say the messiah I'm ntalking about the jewish redeemer and also other saviors of humanity in religion what is your opinion on this?

You're not talking about Jesus then? What other Messiah is there?

Originally posted by debbiejo
You're not talking about Jesus then? What other Messiah is there?

Jesus is the messiah to Christians he didn't fulfill the prophecies of the scriptures though, I'm just using messiah as a term for the world redeemer many religions have mentioned this.

Well people are always waiting to be rescued I guess instead of taking responsibility for their own actions on this planet.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Well people are always waiting to be rescued I guess instead of taking responsibility for their own actions on this planet.

They need rescuing from each other...there leaders are killing them.

... an opinion of what? Messiahs in general? I oppose them; as debbiejo says, let people clean up their own messes.

Originally posted by Blue nocturne
Jesus is the messiah to Christians he didn't fulfill the prophecies of the scriptures though, I'm just using messiah as a term for the world redeemer many religions have mentioned this.

What scriptures did he not fulfill? In my Prophets class, we are currently working on memorizing the passage of the suffering servant. It's really kind of long, so I won't quote it all, but you should definitely read it... it is found in Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Zechariah 9:9 says, "See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." Jesus rode into Jerusalem on what we know call "Palm Sunday" as recorded in Matthew 21. Another example that comes to mind is found in Micah (because my name is Micah I particularly like that book). Micah 5:2 says, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." As most people know, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. These are just a few of many scriptures that Jesus did fulfill, several dozen in fact. Some people believe that these fulfillments are just coincidence... but the probability of just 8 Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled in any one person would be one chance in a hundred million billion, a figure with 17 zeroes behind it... (don't believe me, Dr. Peter Stoner, a science professor calculated it... I found the info in "The Case for Christ"

An alternative explanation presents itself. Namely, that Jesus' story was modified by the gospel wriiters--especially Matthew--so that he could be said to have fulfiilled the Torah's prophocies.

Originally posted by Gregory
An alternative explanation presents itself. Namely, that Jesus' story was modified by the gospel wriiters--especially Matthew--so that he could be said to have fulfiilled the Torah's prophocies.

Or, the life of Jesus can be proven historically. Even non-Christians believe that Jesus lived.

Some of them don't; I do. That's not the point. You won't be able to prove that any of the things that were supposed to "fulfill the scripture" happened historically.

Originally posted by Gregory
Some of them don't; I do. That's not the point. You won't be able to prove that any of the things that were supposed to "fulfill the scripture" happened historically.

Well, I guess that's where faith comes in, right? If every single thing could be proven historically, what would be the point of faith? It would be a lot easier to believe with a historical book of facts. Actually though, I do believe the Bible to be a historical book. So that is where we disagree. I believe that Scripture fulfills Scripture. The New Testament and the new covenant fulfill the Old Testament and the old covenant. It takes faith, plain and simple.

Some modern (nonOrthodox) Judaic interpretations of the Messiah involve not so much a person but a state of mind, where, indeed, people would take responsibility for their actions and fix this mess we've made of our world.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Well, I guess that's where faith comes in, right? If every single thing could be proven historically, what would be the point of faith? It would be a lot easier to believe with a historical book of facts. Actually though, I do believe the Bible to be a historical book. So that is where we disagree. I believe that Scripture fulfills Scripture. The New Testament and the new covenant fulfill the Old Testament and the old covenant. It takes faith, plain and simple

And that's fine ... for you. I'm not trying to make you abandon your faith, merely explain why your argument won't convince an atheist.

Originally posted by MicahLynn
What scriptures did he not fulfill? In my Prophets class, we are currently working on memorizing the passage of the suffering servant. It's really kind of long, so I won't quote it all, but you should definitely read it... it is found in Isaiah 52:13-53:12. Zechariah 9:9 says, "See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." Jesus rode into Jerusalem on what we know call "Palm Sunday" as recorded in Matthew 21. Another example that comes to mind is found in Micah (because my name is Micah I particularly like that book). Micah 5:2 says, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." As most people know, Jesus was born in Bethlehem. These are just a few of many scriptures that Jesus did fulfill, several dozen in fact. Some people believe that these fulfillments are just coincidence... but the probability of just 8 Old Testament prophecies being fulfilled in any one person would be one chance in a hundred million billion, a figure with 17 zeroes behind it... (don't believe me, Dr. Peter Stoner, a science professor calculated it... I found the info in "The Case for Christ"

The Jewish messiah was supposed to be a king (As a political leader) the greatest ever known he was supposed to bring peace to the world rebuild the temple of Jerusalem and make the Israelites friends with there enemy's none of these things happened during Jesus first coming.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgment he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgment, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." Israel is described as "cut off" in Ez 37:11.

53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them."Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh - (lamed-mem-vav) ", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israel is described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which the plural "deaths" makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq136.html

Well, Blue Nocturne, I am glad to see that you have given this some thought, at least. I believe that all of those passages are true. Most of them already took place and you are reading to deep into them by saying they did not. You aren't interpreting the text exigetically. Some of them are references to His second coming, for instance the verse about Kings becoming silent. I'm sorry that you are so convinced that Jesus is not the Messiah that you'll do everything in your power to disprove the fulfillment of prophecy. When I read that passage in Isaiah, I think of Jesus, the perfect Son of God, fully divine and fully man, who came down to earth to suffer for the sins of the world that the world might one day truly bring glory to God, as it was created to do. I wish you could know that Messiah, the Only Messiah: Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Gregory
And that's fine ... for you. I'm not trying to make you abandon your faith, merely explain why your argument won't convince an atheist.

I don't expect to be able to convince an atheist. I can't make someone change, it is a choice they have to make. But, I will tell them everything I know and believe and that God has revealed to me. Faith isn't something you can convince someone of. After all, Hebrews 11:1 tells us, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

Originally posted by Gregory
Some of them don't; I do. That's not the point. You won't be able to prove that any of the things that were supposed to "fulfill the scripture" happened historically.


It always amazes me when something can be proven and people don't believe it simply because its against a religious piece.


However on that same note I find humor a good part of the time listening to religious people attempting to justify every nit picking detail even though it cannot be done

why?, why should you take the liberty to tell people about things that they dont give a f*uck about. Has it ever dawned on you that the last thing they wanna hear is your rambling about some phantom divine being and what this being done to you. They wanna listen to it with as much interest as a detailed description of a fat blokes, who really suck at whiping his ass, hemorrhoids and the problems they cause him

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Well, I guess that's where faith comes in, right? If every single thing could be proven historically, what would be the point of faith? It would confirm that you're right, that's what....

Originally posted by finti
why?, why should you take the liberty to tell people about things that they dont give a f*uck about. Has it ever dawned on you that the last thing they wanna hear is your rambling about some phantom divine being and what this being done to you. They wanna listen to it with as much interest as a detailed description of a fat blokes, who really suck at whiping his ass, hemorrhoids and the problems they cause him

If you don't want to hear all kinds of opinions, then you probably shouldn't be on a religion forum. I don't agree with the your rambling beliefs, but I sure do listen and try to see where you are coming from. And, I do believe that I am from America, and I have freedom of speech. I can talk... you don't have to listen. I can write... you don't have to read.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It would confirm that you're right, that's what....

I know it would confirm that I'm right, if everything could be proven historically. That's a given. But, then, faith wouldn't be necessary. It wouldn't mean much to believe in something that had a list of facts. I believe in the law of gravity, because it can be proven, but does that make my belief in it special at all, no. I don't have to have faith to believe in gravity or any other scientifically proven fact, because it is proven. When it comes to God, you can't see Him physically and You can't prove that He created the world or that He sent His Son to die for us and rise again on the third day scientifically, but you can have enough faith to believe those things. And, that's what makes it so special. When people have enough faith to follow God even when the path is bumpy and unclear, it pleases Him.

First thing first MicahLynn, do you know the difference between peoples use of they and I ? Cause if you do why the hell do you respond with you to my use of they?


no you dont, cause whatever those who dont believe in your god got to say about it . You reply with theres something missing in your life crap. And now onto me and about my so called "rambling belief". Well beside that I dont believe in an almighty deity you really dont know what I believe cause I really never said what I truly believe in here.

does this freedom of speech include you knocking on doors to tell people about your beliefs as well? cause thats what what I refer too, real life and not this convo postings that goes on in this forum.

Originally posted by finti
no you dont, cause whatever those who dont believe in your god got to say about it . You reply with theres something missing in your life crap. And now onto me and about my so called "rambling belief". Well beside that I dont believe in an almighty deity you really dont know what I believe cause I really never said what I truly believe in here.


You don't really say, which would make it rambling. You want to tell me? Because I will gladly listen.

And, no, I don't go knocking on peoples doors, but I would if I thought they would open up and listen.

what makes it rambling is all the talk your fellow believers do

Originally posted by finti
what makes it rambling is all the talk your fellow believers do

Believing in something has to be better than believing in nothing. And, hey talk can be good. Luke 19:39-40 says, "Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, 'Teacher, rebuke your disciples!' 'I tell you,' He replied, 'if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.'" I'm not going to keep quiet when I know something so amazing! When you know the Truth, you don't want to keep it in, you want everyone you've ever met to know about it too.

not believing in a god and a believe in nothing aint =

too many think that way thats why I have that little sentence at the bottom of my sig...................and your truth aint others truth

Originally posted by MicahLynn
Well, Blue Nocturne, I am glad to see that you have given this some thought, at least. I believe that all of those passages are true. Most of them already took place and you are reading to deep into them by saying they did not. You aren't interpreting the text exigetically. Some of them are references to His second coming, for instance the verse about Kings becoming silent. I'm sorry that you are so convinced that Jesus is not the Messiah that you'll do everything in your power to disprove the fulfillment of prophecy. When I read that passage in Isaiah, I think of Jesus, the perfect Son of God, fully divine and fully man, who came down to earth to suffer for the sins of the world that the world might one day truly bring glory to God, as it was created to do. I wish you could know that Messiah, the Only Messiah: Jesus Christ.

Right i mean they way Christians interpret it is better then the founders of the religion it self