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As Palpatine's TP feats aren't as well known, here are a cliffs:

- 24/7 mentally influenced/dominated the entire imperial military (trillions+) to the point where it basically collapsed without him
- enslaved and constantly drained the energies of the population of Byss (billions)
- mind-wiped the memory from witnesses of the super star destroyer Lusankya being lowered in the middle of f*cking Coruscant (trillions?)
- knew every thought (hyperbole?) of ESB Vader, even from across the galaxy
- casually read RotJ Luke's thoughts despite his efforts to resist
- mentally dominated DE Luke (note: on a DS nexus and after defeating him)
- fogged the long-term foresight of the entire PT Jedi Order

Valkorion.

Half of the things Ellimist mentioned aren't applicable or even real, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
- 24/7 mentally influenced/dominated the entire imperial military (trillions+) to the point where it basically collapsed without him
- enslaved and constantly drained the energies of the population of Byss (billions)
- mind-wiped the memory from witnesses of the super star destroyer Lusankya being lowered in the middle of f*cking Coruscant (trillions?)
- mentally dominated DE Luke (note: on a DS nexus and after defeating him)
- fogged the long-term foresight of the entire PT Jedi Order I count 5 that are accurate. Darth Sidious triumphs.

It seems like Sidious has both superior individual-level (dominating DE Luke) and large-scale (dominating trillions on a constant basis) TP feats than Valkorion.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It seems like Sidious has both superior individual-level (dominating DE Luke) feats than Valkorion. I don't know about that; Valkorion did dominate the entire strike team sent to arrest him.

DE Luke isn't that impressive with TP from what I know and he was already defeated. How did Luke fare against Joruus, again? Plus it only happens in one version of the story.

And that imperial military one is absolutely laughably false.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I don't know about that; Valkorion did dominate the entire strike team sent to arrest him.

They're fodder though.

^^^

That sounds like Battle Meditation.

"Battle meditation" on a 24/7 basis across the entire galaxy on trillions of beings to such a degree that they collapse without it while simultaneously enslaving + draining billions on Byss and reading Vader's thoughts?

Valkorion's most supposedly impressive large-scale TP feat is dominating Ziost, which is just a smaller version of Byss and this was his like magnus opus.

They aren't legit, no. It was revealed that Sidious wasn't the one using Battle Meditation, it was one of his admirals. Nial Declann. Pallaeon and Thrawn were wrong about that.

The other quotes don't remotely imply what you're saying they do.

^ half of those quotes aren't from character perspectives.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

That sounds like Battle Meditation.

Does BM sound like rendering its recipients intto mindless puppets dependent solely on the will of the provider? Thrawn literally differentiated between what the Emperor was doing and merely enhancing coordination.

Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
^ half of those quotes aren't from character perspectives.

I know. As I said, they do not mean what you think they do.

The first quote takes place in the Battle of Endor, where Sidious was explicitly not using BM.

GADM Declann was using Battle Meditation at Endor. But that actually doesn't contradict anything because the disarray at Endor is attributed to the Emperor's death diffusing the dark side.

Apparently Declann's efforts were in conjunction with the Emperor's general mindhax.

Also Ell, don't bother with Nephtard. Guy is so deluded and deranged after the traumas at Tempest's (long may he live) hands you can't reason with him at all, and his double standards are outright disgusting.

Sheev dominated the entire Imperial Military 24/7, containing tens of trillions of people, casually, no rest, no effort, fact. Sheev mindrapes your champion a hundred times over, Vitidiots, and makes him his sex slave. Deal with it. excellent

Originally posted by The_Tempest
GADM Declann was using Battle Meditation at Endor. But that actually doesn't contradict anything because the disarray at Endor is attributed to the Emperor's death diffusing the dark side.

Apparently Declann's efforts were in conjunction with the Emperor's general mindhax.

How does his death diffusing the dark side prove he was using mindhax? mmm

Originally posted by Nephthys
How does his death diffusing the dark side prove he was using mindhax? mmm

Because it's the phenomenon described in the various sources provided by Ell and Azronger and Legend 2.0.

Palpatine used the dark side to run the Empire in an intimate way. With his death, it literally spiraled out of control because he was no longer there to direct its energies.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"Battle meditation" on a 24/7 basis across the entire galaxy on trillions of beings to such a degree that they collapse without it while simultaneously enslaving + draining Byss and reading Vader's thoughts?
Palptine transformed Byss into a focal point of Dark Side energy for himself from where he could not only draw power into himself but it would be the setting where he could ressurect himself after death.

As for Palpatine controlling his Empire with his powers, same is true for Vitiate and even Darth Malak. You do not need hyperbolic quotes to understand this.

No, Battle Meditation would not be a constant feature. However, descriptions you provided suggest that this was the case in the Battle of Endor. So Bastilla Shan TIER? Also, most of those statements are subjective interpretations of Palpatine's influence over his subjects from his followers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know. As I said, they do not mean what you think they do.

The first quote takes place in the Battle of Endor, where Sidious was explicitly not using BM.

As Tempest points out, Sidious's dominance over the imperial military and the specific BM used at Endor are separate phenomena.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palptine transformed Byss into a focal point of Dark Side energy for himself from where he could not only draw power into himself but it would be the setting where he could ressurect himself after death.

As for Palpatine controlling his Empire with his powers, same is true for Vitiate and even Darth Malak. You do not need hyperbolic quotes to understand this.

No, Battle Meditation would not be a constant feature. However, descriptions you provided suggest that this was the case in the Battle of Endor. So Bastilla Shan TIER? Also, most of those statements are subjective interpretations of Palpatine's influence over his subjects from his followers.

You're welcome to present evidence that Valkorion was 24/7 dominating a galactic military without a nexus while doing 100 other things simultaneously.

Honestly, Azronger did a lot to uncover the depth of the Emperor's psychic potency. His feats unquestionably outstrip Valkorion's in terms of scale and scope.

The only argument I could remotely entertain in Valk's favor is intimacy, but I'm sure Azronger could debunk that too.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As Palpatine's TP feats aren't as well known, here are a cliffs:

- 24/7 mentally influenced/dominated the entire imperial military (trillions+) to the point where it basically collapsed without him
- enslaved and constantly drained the energies of the population of Byss (billions)
- mind-wiped the memory from witnesses of the super star destroyer Lusankya being lowered in the middle of f*cking Coruscant (trillions?)
- knew every thought (hyperbole?) of ESB Vader, even from across the galaxy
- casually read RotJ Luke's thoughts despite his efforts to resist
- mentally dominated DE Luke (note: on a DS nexus and after defeating him)
- fogged the long-term foresight of the entire PT Jedi Order

Also to add to this list, he:

resisted Plagueis' TP as a 17-year-old
overpowered the will of the Force
tore through Yoda's mental shields and the latter is stated to be unable to resist him
fogged Vader's senses from across the galaxy, which was "too easy" for him
forced Vader to his knees from across the galaxy
continued to dominate DE Luke outside of Byss
brought DE Luke immense pain from across the galaxy


There's more, and they can be found here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/?page=1#js-message-18672257

Also the quotes about him knowing everyone of Vader's thoughts isn't hyperbole; he literally detects them from across the galaxy on multiple occasions

Yeah tbh OT-era Sidious vs. Valkorion isn't even a debate anymore, while PT Sidious vs. Valkorion is only in contention if you don't accept certain feats as legitimate (unbalancing the Force, etc.) and assume Sidious grows 100 times more powerful in the few years after RotS.

Originally posted by Azronger
Also to add to this list, he:

resisted Plagueis' TP as a 17-year-old
overpowered the will of the Force
tore through Yoda's mental shields and the latter is stated to be unable to resist him
fogged Vader's senses from across the galaxy, which was "too easy" for him
forced Vader to his knees from across the galaxy
continued to dominate DE Luke outside of Byss
brought DE Luke immense pain from across the galaxy


There's more, and they can be found here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/?page=1#js-message-18672257

Also the quotes about him knowing everyone of Vader's thoughts isn't hyperbole; he literally detects them from across the galaxy on multiple occasions

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Valkorion's most supposedly impressive large-scale TP feat is dominating Ziost, which is just a smaller version of Byss and this was his like magnus opus.
Ziost is a huge planet and one of the major population centers of the Sith Empire. We can expect billions of inhabitants on it, easily.

Anyways, this is much different from Palpatine having psychic impact on already loyal subjects. Valkorion was utilizing his TP to "subjugate" possibly billions on Ziost including hundreds of Jedi and Sith (all unwilling hosts) in order to turn the entire world into a war zone. This is a pure demonstration of ALTER on the part of Valkorion in the context of his TP abilities. And Palpatine does not have anything to compare in this respect.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Honestly, Azronger did a lot to uncover the depth of the Emperor's psychic potency. His feats unquestionably outstrip Valkorion's in terms of scale and scope.

The only argument I could remotely entertain in Valk's favor is intimacy, but I'm sure Azronger could debunk that too.

Thank you for you praise, my Master. It means a lot to me.

I talked to Skillz about this feat and he conceded it is pretty conclusive, and also that it is beyond anything Valkorion ever did.

Not sure what you mean by intimacy though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because it's the phenomenon described in the various sources provided by Ell and Azronger and Legend 2.0.

Palpatine used the dark side to run the Empire in an intimate way. With his death, it literally spiraled out of control because he was no longer there to direct its energies.

Much of those sources seem to be talking about Endor, which I would attribute to Declann stopping the BM upon Sheevs death as well as probably the huge explosion of darkside energy on his death.

Other than that though, I'm not seeing anything that impresses me more than what Vitiate/Valkorion are more than capable of. I guess you could say he'd influenced the government officials and military officers or something like that. Which pales to what Vitiate could do as a child. But certainly not the 24/7 galaxy-wide horseshit that Ellimist is suggesting. There were plenty of Imperial defections and the quotes even mention conspiracies against him. Of which there are scores of examples of.

^^^

Nice catch.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Much of those sources seem to be talking about Endor, which I would attribute to Declann stopping the BM upon Sheevs death as well as probably the huge explosion of darkside energy on his death.

Other than that though, I'm not seeing anything that impresses me more than what Vitiate/Valkorion are more than capable of. I guess you could say he'd influenced the government officials and military officers or something like that. Which pales to what Vitiate could do as a child. But certainly not the 24/7 galaxy-wide horseshit that Ellimist is suggesting. There were plenty of Imperial defections and the quotes even mention conspiracies against him. Of which there are scores of examples of.

The problem is that the quotes are very explicit: the dark side was diffused because of the Emperor's death, not Declann.

The text also is explicit in the scope and scale of his dark side manipulations.

Beyond personal incredulity, no one has actually offered evidence to refute anything.

That a small fraction of the trillions Palpatine dominates on a daily basis broke free doesn't change the fact that it's on a massively greater scale than anything Valkorion has ever done. Ziost, by comparison, was done on a nexus with a ritual to merely billions.

He wasn't using it on trillions, you loon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that the quotes are very explicit: the dark side was diffused because of the Emperor's death, not Declann.

The text also is explicit in the scope and scale of his dark side manipulations.

Beyond personal incredulity, no one has actually offered evidence to refute anything.

The diffusion of the darkside /= anything to do with telepathy though.

We know Sidious wasn't influencing the troops at Endor, Declann was. The best you can say is that the people Sidious had previously dominated were freed. Yet the ability to alter non-force senstive minds is literally childsplay to Vitiate, even to do so permanently. That Sidious did so on many individuals is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Azronger
I talked to Skillz about this feat and he conceded it is pretty conclusive, and also that it is beyond anything Valkorion ever did.

Never said that.

At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.

And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel.

Neph, it's literally there:

Originally posted by The Ellimist
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.

And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel.

Black and white. This stuff is vastly beyond what we've seen from Valkorion, honestly.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
At the decisive Battle of Endor, the Jedi returned to aid the Alliance in the form of Luke Skywalker and his father Anakin. The Emperor was killed, his fleet scattered, and his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed. Without its binding, the Empire began to unravel.

^ this makes it clear that the absence of Palpatine's will scattered the Empire, not just the fleet at Endor, and it wasn't some sort of shockwave (though that may have initially done something too) it was the lack of his power.

And yes, the imperial fleet is trillions in personnel.

As I said, that Sidious dominated key figures is nice for him. But nothing on Valkorion.

Nothing suggests he's literally holding the Empire together all the time through sheer will. That's absurd. Its a figure of speech.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Nothing suggests he's literally holding the Empire together all the time through sheer will. That's absurd. Its a figure of speech. his dark will which held the Empire together destroyed.

Huh?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said, that Sidious dominated key figures is nice for him. But nothing on Valkorion.

Nothing suggests he's literally holding the Empire together all the time through sheer will. That's absurd. Its a figure of speech.

Nope:

With the Emperor dead, the central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone. With the Dark Side diffused and undirected, the Imperials were left with nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear. The sudden loss of coordination and fighting spirit allowed Han Solo, Princess Leia and the Rebel Commandos to disable the shield generator.

The collapse at Endor is directly linked to the overall collapse of the Empire, and resulted in the collapse of the imperial military on a personnel level, not just on a "the moffs went crazy" level or whatever you're suggesting.

And it's not a figure of speech because that's what literally f*cking happened, lol.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That a small fraction of the trillions Palpatine dominates on a daily basis broke free doesn't change the fact that it's on a massively greater scale than anything Valkorion has ever done. Ziost, by comparison, was done on a nexus with a ritual to merely billions.
Absolutely misleading assessment of various developments and techniques in the domain of TP.

Palpatine was (not) "subjugating" countless unwilling individuals across the galaxy. If this was the case then rebellion would have never materialized. Palpatine had a "psychic impact" on his followers on a massive scale though but this is true for virtually any Emperor.

Valkorion's TP related demonstrations on Ziost fall in the ALTER spectrum of his abilities because he managed to possess the minds of billions of individuals including many Jedi and Sith - all of whom were unwilling hosts. This is not the same as having a psychic impact on loyal subjects.

There's no reason to think the people on Byss were willing hosts.

Byss was achieved over decades through unknown means, with unknown levels of aid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Byss was achieved over decades

Proof?



A sentence that describes Valkorion's efforts just as well, honestly.

Huh, it looks like that quote is actually from something else. They just used the exact same wording for some reason. The point is the same though, the actual quote from Heir to the Empire is just as singularly focused on the Battle of Endor as the one from the Return of the Jedi novel.

My bad.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Byss was achieved over decades through unknown means, with unknown levels of aid.

https://i.imgur.com/w3hUyFC.gif

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Never said that.

You said yesterday that in terms of magnitude and scope, it's better than anything Valkorion's got.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Proof?

That's the timeframe of his corruption of the planet. Its utterly unknown how long it took him or how he achieved it. It cannot be said to have fast or slow, its completely unusable.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A sentence that describes Valkorion's efforts just as well, honestly.

I can't think of a similar case for him. He dominated his father in a direct confrontation. He dominated Revan and Malak similarly with "a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power". He was a mere spirit in hiding on Ziost so he was weakened and alone. Etc.

Originally posted by Azronger
You said yesterday that in terms of magnitude and scope, it's better than anything Valkorion's got.

For telepathy, yes. Not in terms of impressiveness overall.

However, I'm not sure if I should take it as you say I should after Neph's post.

Speculations about time and circumstance can be levelled at Vitiate to just as much effect. In fact, probably moreso.

With respect to demonstrable showings in the heat of the moment, I think Palpatine eclipses Vitiate considerably. And in the realm of these grander, more ambiguous showings, the gap gets even bigger, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's the timeframe of his corruption of the planet. Its utterly unknown how long it took him or how he achieved it. It cannot be said to have fast or slow, its completely unusable.

I'm fairly well acquainted with the lore surrounding Byss, but I don't recall decades ever being described. Do you have the quote?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't think of a similar case for him. He dominated his father in a direct confrontation. He dominated Revan and Malak similarly with "a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power". He was a mere spirit in hiding on Ziost so he was weakened and alone. Etc.

We don't know the circumstances of his confrontation with his father, he could very well have had prep or aid.

Regarding Revan and Malak, that's incorrect: the encyclopedia says it only took a fraction of his power to complete their fall to the dark side.

Ziost is a potent dark side nexus.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
For telepathy, yes. Not in terms of impressiveness overall.

However, I'm not sure if I should take it as you say I should after Neph's post.

And I'm beginning to question if your IQ really is 140.

No offense, I'm just obligated to defend His Imperial Majesty and shit on idiots so you agreeing with Nephtard is shaking my faith in you considerably. Nothing personal

Originally posted by Nephthys
Amusing, but as I said Thrawn was simply wrong. Declann was the one using Battle Meditation in that battlem not Sheev. And in any case Thrawn is still only talking about the specific fleet at Endor. Hence why he starts out by saying "Yes, Captain, you were there,"

Originally posted by Azronger
And I'm beginning to question if your IQ really is 140.

No offense, I'm just obligated to defend His Imperial Majesty and shit on idiots so you agreeing with Nephtard is shaking my faith in you considerably. Nothing personal

Hehe.

You couldn't even come up with a fresh insult?

I don't waste energy on the likes of you, so no

Originally posted by Azronger
Also to add to this list, he:

resisted Plagueis' TP as a 17-year-old
overpowered the will of the Force
tore through Yoda's mental shields and the latter is stated to be unable to resist him
fogged Vader's senses from across the galaxy, which was "too easy" for him
forced Vader to his knees from across the galaxy
continued to dominate DE Luke outside of Byss
brought DE Luke immense pain from across the galaxy


There's more, and they can be found here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/darth-sidioussheev-palpatine-super-respect-thread-1877280/?page=1#js-message-18672257

Also the quotes about him knowing everyone of Vader's thoughts isn't hyperbole; he literally detects them from across the galaxy on multiple occasions

Shit, forgot about that time a mere hologram recording of Sheev almost dominated DE Luke's mind. Definitely one of his more impressive showings.

I'm sure you know that Revan and Malak were described as bordering on the dark side and that this made it easier for Vitiate who had prep and a nexus to break them.

Sounds like it refers to more than the Battle of Endor, yeah.

Thrawn says he only wants C'Baoth to do it in combat situations, and not constantly like Sidious did it.

And the "you were there" refers to the fact that he was there in the moment (or the fight) as the fighting spirit of the Empire died.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm sure you know that Revan and Malak were described as bordering on the dark side and that this made it easier for Vitiate who had prep and a nexus to break them.

Using prep would contradict the fact that he only needed a fraction of his power to do it. The reason to use prep is if you require more power than you're capable of pulling out at an instant. Which is contradictory. Likewise with a nexus. Revan and Malak were both proven capable of drawing on darkside nexuses in any case.

**** the formatting

Anyway, this is eating into my precious me time. I'm neglecting Kaiji right at the interesting part.

I may continue this discussion but I'm bowing out for today at least.

But Drew stated that Vitiate would require prep lol. Remember that email I sent?

Jack, you told us you fabricated that quote.

Nah lol. That was a troll.

https://i.imgur.com/6j2Rpbm.png

Originally posted by Azronger
And I'm beginning to question if your IQ really is 140.


Wait, it is?

Anyway I still don't see a strong refutation of Palpatine's galaxy-wide TP except for attempts to splice together different novel contexts to argue that the sourcebooks were only talking about Endor even when they specifically mention it in the context of the whole Empire.

Vitiate could suppress the power of Vaylin, control the minds of his personal powerbase, control the minds of his Force-sensitive Children including Exal Kressh, dominate the First Son Syo Bakarn and gift him enough power to shroud all of his children amongst the Jedi Order, stalemate Sel-Makor in the Dark Heart for control of his Voss, dominate the minds of Leeha Narezz, Warren Sedoru, Tol Braga, and the Hero of Tython. He was also stated by Meetra's spirit to be close to overpowering Revan's mind when he was freed. All whilst he was getting ready to power his Dark Ritual to consume the galaxy.

Valkorion is massively more powerful than Vitiate. No contest whatsoever.

"The Emperor was. . . powerful. He alone was worthy. But now he is silent. None can control us."

Seems the Emperor was controlling the Dread Masters after release on Belsavis. But they went rogue when he died. He's the greatest telepath ever then, no argument.

Sidious scales from Plagueis who telepathically reached out to every being in the galaxy. Sids wrecks yea.

Kbro can't read again. Plagueis used MM to announce his presence to all living things, not TP.

Vitiate simultaneously suppressing Vaylin, dominating Syo Bakarn, being capable of eventually dominating Revan as per Surik, controlling the Dread Masters, influencing all of his Children, dominating Tol Braga, Hero of Tython, Leeha and Warren Sedoru, all whilst fueling thousands of beings with his power and still maintaining this control while fighting Sel-Makor in the Dark Heart, and then having enough remaining power to enact the Dark Ritual. Is vastly more impressive.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Kbro can't read again. Plagueis used MM to announce his presence to all living things, not TP.

Wait, are you trying to imply that Plagues affected the mediclhorians of every being in the galaxy?

Aight then.

Via, AP's interpretation, Plagueis used mediclhorian manipulation on very being in the galaxy which blows anything Valk has ever done out of the water.

However, intellectual honesty, which AP seems to lack, compels me to be a tad more logical.

I've never seen MM used to "inform" people. I have seen TP be used to inform people. I have also never seen MM "infiltrate a dream." I have seen TP used for that.

As the intended impact was mental rather than physical, I find it far more likely Plagueis's feat was one of TP rather than MM, though I'd much prefer for it to be the latter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
^^^

That sounds like Battle Meditation.
Isn't BM an extension of TP?

Him using it to call out through the Force isn't the same as him manipulating the midichlorians themselves, lmfao.

I like how you start quoting after his musings. It isn't TP, it's him calling out through the Force. It was literally just him shouting through the Force.

It's likely affecting the Force with his presence through some kind of feat.

Regardless, what Tenebrae can do prior to massive power growth shits on any of Plagueis' actual feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower

Him using it to call out through the Force isn't the same as him manipulating the mediclhorian themselves, lmfao.
If he's using MM, then he's calling out through the force by manipulating the force's mediclhorians on a galactic scale which again


Telepathically can be, and has been, described as calling out through the force.

Not sure where you're getting the MM bit from. Quote?
No incarnation of Valk has a TP feat on the scale of what Plagueis did. And Valk has no feats at the level of the MM feat you claim Plagy pulled off.

You realise massively pre-prime Exar Kun has screamed twice through the Force, causing ripples, and every Jedi in the galaxy felt it?

Now it's not every living being in the galaxy perse, but it's every single one of those tens of thousands of Jedi. Kun's power effectively multiplies from this and yet he's sub-SWTOR Vitiate.

You're claiming Valkorion can't when he's never tried. Furthermore, we're talking about a telepathic war between powerhouses here.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
mediclhorians

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
mediclhorians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa_hIvM7AiY

Originally posted by AncientPower
You realise massively pre-prime Exar Kun has screamed twice through the Force, causing ripples, and every Jedi in the galaxy felt it?

Every jedi vs Every jedi +non force-sensitive individual. Do I really need to explain to you why the latter is vastly more impressive than the former.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Now it's not every living being in the galaxy perse, but it's every single one of those tens of thousands of Jedi. Kun's power effectively multiplies from this and yet he's sub-SWTOR Vitiate.

Thousands vs Trillions. There is absolutely no comparison here.

AP Logic: Plagueis never tried to make a planetary death field, so Valk's Ziost feat is irrelevant.

Yes, and Plagueis reaching out to mentally inform everyone of his presence is telepathy, not MM.

Though I really don't have an issue with you taking it as an act of MM as that would end Plagueis vs anyone who doesn't scale from him as an argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa_hIvM7AiY
An accurate representation of Ant's state of mind atm.

Sometimes I'm amazed you can even log into the forum.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Every jedi vs Every jedi +non force-sensitive individual. Do I really need to explain to you why the latter is vastly more impressive than the former.

Thousands vs Trillions. There is absolutely no comparison here.

AP Logic: Plagueis never tried to make a planetary death field, so Valk's Ziost feat is irrelevant.

Yes, and Plagueis reaching out to mentally inform everyone of his presence is telepathy, not MM.

Though I really don't have an issue with you taking it as an act of MM as that would end Plagueis vs anyone who doesn't scale from him as an argument.

I'm not going to bother getting into another one of your anti-logic rants.

But I will make this point, informing every living thing in the galaxy of your existence is not nearly the same as dominating them. And as massive as the scale of this feat is, it's essentially a quantity feat in which he never really has to subjugate anyone.

I'm not saying it isn't impressive, but it's not nearly as impressive as simultaneously outright dominating Vaylin, Revan(eventually), the Dread Masters, the Hero of Tython, Syo Bakarn, Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Leeha Narizz, thousands of Jedi and Sith, the entire Imperial Guard and had the remaining strength to stalemate Sel-Makor in the Dark Heart where Sel-Makor is essentially all-powerful, dying, and still maintaining all of that power whilst enacting the Dark Ritual, being massively weakened and still maintaining all of that whilst threatening to be capable of dominating Lord Scourge and Kira Carsen almost instantly per Scourge himself. Not to mention all of the power he's giving to his thousands of Children and Imperial Guard whenever they require it.

There's no comparison at all, and yet Valkorion grows massively more powerful.

Uh, Plagueis is pretty obviously using MM in that quote. That's why his animals got horrible diseases.

You don't get AIDs from telepathy.

I was going to suggest that, yeah. Problem is he thinks that is impressive, when we already have a list of things he does that he says is easy. Midichlorian Manipulation is essentially cheating the boundaries of power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, Plagueis is pretty obviously using MM in that quote. That's why his animals got horrible diseases.

You don't get AIDs from telepathy. Total conjecture. Plagueis projected his essence across the galaxy in a feat beyond telepathy, the diseases were a result of the Force manifesting to rebuke him.

Naturally, Valk has never achieved anything close.

It specifically says the Force did jack shit in response.

"But ultimately to no end. The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."

I love how desperately Plagueis' feats are grasped on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It specifically says the Force did jack shit in response.

"But ultimately to no end. The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases." It states that the Force recoiled from him, causing the life he had unnaturally induced into existence to die off.

That's a response.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I love how desperately Plagueis' feats are grasped on. Quite, time to quit trying to poke holes in the facts and just accept Hego's superiority.

I can see how people would think that's a telepathy feat if someone were to only partially post it without context, but it seems like its just a case of the poetic language being misleading. In fact instead of being a good feat for him the impression I get is that he likely failed and only affected stuff in his immediate area.

Something else Valky has never achieved, if we're counting.

That said I'll concede that we do not know whether it was these creatures specifically that succumbed, the point being that the Force's anathema manifested itself.

His intent was to use midi-chlorian manipulation to create life from nothing, he attempted this by projecting his essence across the galaxy to touch every living thing in it. That was not achieved through midi-chlorian manipulation but by becoming ethereal, regardless of whether using MM on every living thing in the galaxy was his ultimate end goal.

The death of his test subjects is never stated to be a result of a failed attempt to manipulate them, but the act of the Force recoiling from him, which as we know, underpins the basis of all life.

And just so we clear, you're correct, Plagueis stretching his essence across the span of the galaxy to touch it's one hundred quadrillion sentient species + quadrillions upon quadrillions of other organisms, in an act that's essentially a communion with the depth and breadth of the Living Force itself, resulting in the omnipresent energy field that governs the entire universe to physically rebuke him, is not comparable to Valkorion's conventional showings of telepathy at all, because it's in another league and sphere of ability entirely, and makes them look utterly pedestrian by any contrast.

Likewise I'll concede that it may have been those ones, but who knows. I think its pretty damn clear that the Force didn't inflict those diseases on them though, as the text specifically says the Force didn't respond. Nor would recoiling from him spontaneously produce disease in animals. Diseases are afterall a form of life or at least a component of life and not the absense of it.

And I'm really not sure how you think he wasn't using MM there considering thats literally what it says hes doing. Just projecting his essense wouldn't create life, nor would it cause the Force to recoil from him or respond to him. It says that he attempted the manipulation and obviously that is what he is doing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And just so we clear, you're correct, Plagueis stretching his essence across the span of the galaxy to touch it's one hundred quadrillion sentient species + quadrillions upon quadrillions of other organisms, in an act that's essentially a communion with the depth and breadth of the Living Force itself, resulting in the omnipresent energy field that governs the entire universe to physically rebuke him, is not comparable to Valkorion's conventional showings of telepathy at all, because is in another league and sphere of ability entirely, and makes them look utterly pedestrian by any contrast.

Oh ok, concession accepted I suppose. Since its not telepathy its irrelevant.

It was a grandiose act of telepathy intended to herald his attempt to create "a Forceful being." Or a grandiose act of telepathy that was performed simultaneously with his attempt to create one.

But either way, it's obvious telepathy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Likewise I'll concede that it may have been those ones, but who knows. I think its pretty damn clear that the Force didn't inflict those diseases on them though, as the text specifically says the Force didn't respond. Nor would recoiling from him spontaneously produce disease in animals. Diseases are afterall a form of life or at least a component of life and not the absense of it.The Force responded by recoiling ("as if in flight from him", that is explictly stated so no point continuing to pretend otherwise. And disease is a disorder of an organism that is often caused by internal disfunction, for example through the failure of an immune system, or a mutation. Or in other words if the function of a life form was to suddenly started to decay, a horrifying disease could absolutely be expected.

It's not literally said anywhere, the word midi-chlorian manipulation is literally not said anywhere at all. Instead what's literally stated is that he "stretched out" across the galaxy, which can't be done by prodding at micro-organisms, lmao.

And like I said, even if his end intentions were to use midi-chlorian manipulation across the galaxy, he'd still have to project himself first.

I never stated it was telepathy, I said that your argument it was midi-chlorian manipulation was conjecture, and Valk doesn't come close. Take your attempted e-victories elsewhere. uhuh

C'mon, Beni, Nephtard is beneath your notice. Let him perpetuate his stupidity on his own. No need to coax him to reveal the ugly side of humanity to the rest of us.

http://i.imgur.com/fIiYSkE.gif

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There's no reason to think the people on Byss were willing hosts.
Really?

Byss is regarded as the Emperor's throneworld in the lore for a reason.

Even were Palpatine's dark side adepts not at his disposal, the planet was populated with an army of the Emperor's most loyal subjects.

Taken from Handbook no. 3 - Dark Empire

On top, this planet was extremely strong in the Dark Side and its environment facilitated Palpatine to such an extent that:

Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waves his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery.

Taken from Handbook no. 3 - Dark Empire

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Total conjecture. Plagueis projected his essence across the galaxy in a feat beyond telepathy, the diseases were a result of the Force manifesting to rebuke him.

Naturally, Valk has never achieved anything close.
Right.

I must say that Darth Plagueis did not demonstrate anything remotely close to creating manifestations such as Children within thousands of individuals ranging from children to seasoned Jedi Masters in-conjunction with binding thousands of individuals to himself in the manner that they would not betray him and could draw on his power to counter Jedi in combat situations when near him. And neither Darth Plagueis ever demonstrated the capability to utilize his Telepathic abilities to subjugate the entire population of a planet including hundreds of Jedi and Sith stationed there - all unwilling hosts.

And do I need to mention Valkorion creating monstrosities on Ziost in-conjunction with a number of his other deeds - beings of pure Dark Side energy that were virtually invulnerable?

Conversely, Darth Plagueis's story is told in the manner that mechanics of the Force is a central theme in it. This is not the objective in SWTOR and related projects however. Nonetheless, Revan novel gives the impression that the Force was out of balance in ancient times due to actions of Valkorion and champion of Light were emerging to oppose Valkorion from time-to-time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And just so we clear, you're correct, Plagueis stretching his essence across the span of the galaxy to touch it's one hundred quadrillion sentient species + quadrillions upon quadrillions of other organisms, in an act that's essentially a communion with the depth and breadth of the Living Force itself, resulting in the omnipresent energy field that governs the entire universe to physically rebuke him, is not comparable to Valkorion's conventional showings of telepathy at all, because it's in another league and sphere of ability entirely, and makes them look utterly pedestrian by any contrast.
Provide evidence and context.

Valkorion is easily GALAXY TIER in his manipulations and the ability to influence his subjects:

Many Jedi speculate that it is only Emperor's iron will that prevents the Sith Order from collapsing into chaos as it has so often done in the past.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

NO SITH HAS generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Now, an absent Emperor and the uneasy peace following the Great War against the Republic threaten to shatter the backbone of the Empire.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

By drawing on his incredible dark powers, the Emperor imprinted his consciousness onto unwitting pawns who would serve as vessels for carrying out his will. Through the eyes and ears of these "children," he could uncover threats in both the Empire and Republic while they were still nothing but whispers. And should the need arise, the Emperor could seize control of his children and instruct them to crush any plot that dared defy his will.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Aided by his powerful, secretive, and far-reaching powerbase, the Emperor pulls strings across the galaxy to carry out his master stroke - the details of which only Emperor knows.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The concealed Emperor manipulates and dominates the galaxy with his far-reaching power base: the Imperial Guard, the Hand, the Voice, the Wrath, and the Children.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

THE EMPEROR fears only death. It was this dread that inspired the Emperor to possess beings to serve as the Voice and the Hand, the former to speak his will and the latter to serve as conduits through which he could control his Empire. To extent his reach and sight, the Emperor created his Children through which he could see and act on whim. For those who displeased him, the Emperor shaped the Wrath - the ultimate executioner, who lived only to strike down enemies of the Emperor and humble the galaxy. Finally, he forged the Imperial Guard as an army of devoted warriors, tasked with overwhelming the Emperor's foes and protecting his domain. With this power base, the Emperor seeks to shield himself from the dangers of mortality and make the galaxy bow before him.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

NOTE: Only the Wrath was an independent actor - by design - the rest were either pawns bind to his will or manifestations of the Emperor himself.

---

The aforementioned manipulations do not account for Valkorion's influence extending to the Empire of Zakuul.

I like how there's massive holes in this supposed TP feat but the PT brigade is pretending they don't exist.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really?

Byss is regarded as the Emperor's throneworld in the lore for a reason.

Even were Palpatine's dark side adepts not at his disposal, the planet was populated with an army of the Emperor's most loyal subjects.

Taken from Handbook no. 3 - Dark Empire

On top, this planet was extremely strong in the Dark Side and its environment facilitated Palpatine to such an extent that:

Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waves his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery.

Taken from Handbook no. 3 - Dark Empire

The first quote doesn't contradict the notion that Palpatine made them into loyal subjects, and the latter is largely the work of Palpatine too, soooo

Originally posted by AncientPower
I like how there's massive holes in this supposed TP feat but the PT brigade is pretending they don't exist.

Go ahead and list them?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The first quote doesn't contradict the notion that Palpatine made them into loyal subjects, and the latter is largely the work of Palpatine too, soooo
This is like saying that Palpatine made Darth Vader loyal to him.

Byss was an Imperial stronghold. Palpatine's most loyal subjects inhabited it. Very simple.

It is literally stated the people of Byss live in a nigh-catatonic, dream like state induced by Sidious himself. That sure sounds like he's TPing them.