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To many, DE Sidious is an unknown. As I have given up active debating - and yet am still tired of the individuals who think that 'Sidz sucks!!!11!' and that 'Yoda can pwn DE Sidz!'. . . This is a little reference to his newfoundpower.

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Janus . . . I'm going to have to politely, but firmly disagree.

I held a copy of Dark Empire in my hand today. I finally found a printed copy in Barnes & Noble. I gave my original set to my cousin, when he moved to New York. I read the comic book again. So I'm full with info about this subject.

Traya is a mighty force to be reckoned with, especially given her mighty instakill technique. However, it cannot be denied that Sidious's technique is more destructive and ultimately more powerful. The best we've seen Traya do is kill three Jedi Masters. Powerful Jedi, to be sure, but in the end - three individuals.

Sidious has obliterated massive ships. So, whereas Traya's casualties - from her instakill - lay in single digits (in KOTOR II) - Sidious's is in the quadruples. He destroyed fleets.

So, while you can make an arguement for personal combat, you won't have such luck in an overall test of feats.

Also, I will ask you to note that - by the time of Dark Empire, Luke is very powerful. He is able to crush an Imperial AT-AT by himself, armed only with a lightsaber. He is able to reflect a blaster bolt from its main canon, and then proceeds to slice its legs. He does it with ease, and I do not jest.

So. Let me spell out the situation.

Luke succumbs to the Dark Side when he confronts Palpatine, for the first time since Palpatine's 'rebirth'. He knows that Palpatine is too powerful, and gives in - trying to destroy the Emperor from the inside out. He falls too far. Under orders from Palpatine, he kidnaps a pregnant Leia. She manages to turn him back. Luke then proceeds to sneak into Palpatine's laboratory, and destroys all but one of his clones. Palpatine then possesses that clone, and they engage in a battle. After a few minutes, Palpatine puts Luke on his ass. Luke then joins the Dark Side again, and goes with Palpatine to execute Leia. Viola! Leia once again manages to convince Luke to stop Palpatine.

So, they fight. Palpatine is once again about to kill Luke when Leia subconsciously performs a feat called 'Luminous Beings'. It combines the Force attunement of herself and Anakin Solo - and then combines it with Luke's. Palpatine and Luke fight again, but then Luke disarms him (literally).

So, Palps then tries to kill them via Force Storm. I should mention this.

The Force Storm takes mere seconds to conjure. Seconds. However, they manage to temporary block him from the Force. He loses control. It consumes his body, and then slowly begins to destroy the ship. They escape. The Imperial fleet explodes.

To wrap it up:

- Force Storms take mere seconds to conjure. Sidious can control their size and power. They can consume individuals standing mere feet away from him, or they can grow to consume entire fleets of ships. This occurs in seconds, in compliance with Sidious's will and thoughts. If I were a gambling man, I'd wager - at maximum - it would take three to five seconds.

- Sidious possesses nearly lethal bolts of Force Lightning. A single blast is enough to kill a few of Luke's Jedi. A few got away with mortal wounds, but died shortly thereafter.

- Sidious possesses training from about 9.5 years after the Battle of Endor. That's all he did. He manipulated the Thrawn Campaign to help focus Imperial morale. He did it from behind-the-scenes, whilst training on Byss. In his younger body, he is stronger, faster, and more agile than Luke (and thus, probably Kreia).

- Sidious (on his DEATH BED), invaded Onderon to take Anakin Solo by force. Anakin and Leia were being protected by New Republic soldiers - and by a large portion of Luke's Jedi. Sidious singlehandedly obliterated their security (again, on his death bed), and mortally wounded a few of the Jedi Knights before moving to possess Leia. He was then shot in the back, by Han Solo.

- Luke - by the time of DE - possessed enough ability and training to singehandedly obliterate an Imperial AT-AT, armed only with a lightsaber.

- Sidious was only defeated when Leia combined her Force Attunement, along with Anakin's, with Luke's. Now, argue all you like here. The Force attunement of a single Skywalker is amazing. They possess the greatest attunement to the Force that we've seen. Multiply that by three, Janus. Weak? Hardly. It's an overwhelming power.

^ The above is my words - taken from another thread. It was a direct response to a comparison made regarding DE Sidious and Darth Traya. I did not edit the messages, so it may refer to Janus (Wesker) and specifically mention Traya.

I am NOT arguing that DE Sidious is the most powerful Sith. I am, however, saying that he is one of the most powerful Star Wars characters. I'd say that he is a firm two solid steps above Kreia and Darth Revan, as well as the likes of the PT Jedi and Sith (much to the dismay of many).

The fact is that the Force Storm technique has no known defense, save for the 'Luminous Beings' maneuver. Suffice it to say, much like Kreia's instakill, it isn't concrete that the likes of Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos can repulse that attack. In fact, considering how there isn't evidence to the contrary, it is safe to assume that they can't.

This places DE Sidious in league with NJO Luke and Exar Kun in my eyes. If you don't like it, make a rebuttle and not some biased anti Sidious ramblings.

Wow, how did I see another Sidious thread coming from you?

I must be psychic!

Lol, is there a problem Sorgo?

^5s

Over 80% of the threads you start have "Palpatine, Emperor or Sidious" in the name.

And most of the arguments I've seen you in have something to do with you backing Sidious.


Not trying to say anything here, but...

Originally posted by Escape81
^ The above is my words - taken from another thread. It was a direct response to a comparison made regarding DE Sidious and Darth Traya. I did not edit the messages, so it may refer to Janus (Wesker) and specifically mention Traya.

By your logic thus far, Sidious has never demonstrated the ability to block Traya's instakill attack, therefore he cannot. And the point is that it's likely he -could- not defeat such an attack, as it literally was instantaneous.



Sidious is only seen destroying the likes of Luke and a few pointless jedi. And killing starships is pretty piss-poor in personal combat. True, it's a remarkable achievement, but starships and naval crews have no real defence against the force. Jedi do.



Translation: We have only seen Force Storm be defended by one defense. Therefore, that must be the only defense.

I shouldn't have to bust into a sermon to point out how illogical this conclusion is. I haven't seen Obi-Wan defend against Dooku's force choke properly, but I'd be a moron to assume that no one else can either. I've only seen Yoda deflect lightning with his hands, but I'd really be living life on the edge if I concluded that only he could do it. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


In feats and force powers? Perhaps. In saber combat he is inferior to both. And the idea that his force storm takes three to five seconds is ridiculous.

It takes three to five seconds for this sentence.

You mean to tell me that they enacted a defense against this force storm in that amount of time? That's not only ridiculous; it's unproven. And the likelihood of it working on another sith lord is probably nil. After all, everyone acts like Sidious was this vacuum and he discovered the Force Storm and none of the sith lords who predated him by thousands of years and pioneered the knowledge would know a defense against it. Of course.

This isn't "biased anti Sidious ramblings", Escape... It's a dose of reality. The only thing I'm seeing biased here is your approach and singlemindedness to prop up Sidious. You don't have to do that. I like the character a lot. He's an excellent character. But excellent characters don't neccessarily have to be propped up and pwn all. Obi-Wan Kenobi is my favorite character of all time. Guess how many times I've made threads to prop him up? None.

Now, what I see here are barely substantiated feats and a force storm that can't possibly be that fast and probably can be defended against anyways. To say nothing of the saber abilities.

In your words, if Force Storms are so easy to conjure, they can easily be replicated by The Ancient Sith, Revan, Exar Kun and most likely Traya, as many have said, abscence of proof is not proof of abscence, simply because Sidious can create a bigger and more powerful force storm does not neccesarrily mean he will be on par with Revan, Traya and/or Kun.

Kun is able to walk into Enemy lines freeze hundreds of thousands of people, kill Vodo, walk out unscathed.

In your reasoning, its possible Kun did not apply the same technique as it would be blocked by the thousands of Jedi that are coming to defeat him.

As with Revan, many jedi, mean that many can conjure up a single defence to block a simple Force Storm.

Sidious, never displayed, any unique techniques, Revan is more of an unknown, Kun however has displayed extrordinary abilites, that put him above DE Sidious

Consider that JA Luke who was after DE Luke, was ripped from his body by Kun, a 4000 year old half mad spirit, and yet it still takes 12 padawans, Vodo and JA Luke to defeat him, meaning that a real flesh Kun would literally smash JA Luke.

DE Sidious while powerful, most likely does not compare to the Ancient Sith down to the Kotor Era, obviously its due to a number of reasons:
- Lack of Potential
- Lack of Knowledge

When i say potential, it means Sidious, has not truly demonstrated the feats required to be one of the most powerful ie in the top 5, as you can tell, most prodigies are able to invent their own techniques and in Revan you have one of the best Military Genius of any Dark Lord of the Sith

And being a Military Genius will help him against Sidious... how?

Anyways, I believe you have to have a greater command of the force over your opponent to block a Force Attack. Like if Sith A tries to choke Jedi B, and Jedi B has greater command of the Force, it woudl not work.

So... they get fried?

Oh, is this one of the threads you were talking about, Sorgo?

Ok just gonna point out some things.

1. Leia, Luke and Anakin together at this state? Leia with barley no force traning, Luke with 10 years and Anakin not even born? I don't see that becoming to great a threat. They didn't combine there full potential now did they? So any strong force user should be able to hold him back. Though he had just recently lost his arm, that might be why he lost controll.

2. How do we know that Kreia's attack is instant? She talked for a very long time, then she executed the attack and they died. She could have been loading it all the time. And the quote, "see it through the eyes of the Exile", coulden't that mean something?? The Exile had the ability to drain peoples powers like Nihilus, but he coulden't control it. When his force was in jeopardy and he lost control and fainted, coulden't he have been the one that drained them? After all when you looked at their bodys it said, "there bodys are drained of the force, worse than dead" something like that. Or mabey Kreia had something to do with it, like she did it through him because of their force bond. This is just a theory though

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok just gonna point out some things.

1. Leia, Luke and Anakin together at this state? Leia with barley no force traning, Luke with 10 years and Anakin not even born? I don't see that becoming to great a threat. They didn't combine there full potential now did they? So any strong force user should be able to hold him back. Though he had just recently lost his arm, that might be why he lost controll.

It was their full force potential... all three of them. That should be like 3 fully powered Luke Skywalkers...

Originally posted by kamikz
Ok just gonna point out some things.

1. Leia, Luke and Anakin together at this state? Leia with barley no force traning, Luke with 10 years and Anakin not even born? I don't see that becoming to great a threat. They didn't combine there full potential now did they? So any strong force user should be able to hold him back. Though he had just recently lost his arm, that might be why he lost controll.

2. How do we know that Kreia's attack is instant? She talked for a very long time, then she executed the attack and they died. She could have been loading it all the time. And the quote, "see it through the eyes of the Exile", coulden't that mean something?? The Exile had the ability to drain peoples powers like Nihilus, but he coulden't control it. When his force was in jeopardy and he lost control and fainted, coulden't he have been the one that drained them? After all when you looked at their bodys it said, "there bodys are drained of the force, worse than dead" something like that. Or mabey Kreia had something to do with it, like she did it through him because of their force bond. This is just a theory though

1. Go back and re-read, Kamikz. I didn't say it combined their experience. I said it combined their Force Attunement. Their connection to the Force. Three Skywalkers' connection to the Force, which is a staggering amount of power considering that they possess the strongest attunement to the Force as a family that we have seen.

2. Again - I took this arguement from another thread I wrote on. In it, I do state that Kreia has an excellent shot of killing DE Sidious, because her instakill is quicker and he has no proven defense against it.

Originally posted by w00t2112
In your words, if Force Storms are so easy to conjure, they can easily be replicated by The Ancient Sith, Revan, Exar Kun and most likely Traya, as many have said, abscence of proof is not proof of abscence, simply because Sidious can create a bigger and more powerful force storm does not neccesarrily mean he will be on par with Revan, Traya and/or Kun.

Kun is able to walk into Enemy lines freeze hundreds of thousands of people, kill Vodo, walk out unscathed.

In your reasoning, its possible Kun did not apply the same technique as it would be blocked by the thousands of Jedi that are coming to defeat him.

As with Revan, many jedi, mean that many can conjure up a single defence to block a simple Force Storm.

Sidious, never displayed, any unique techniques, Revan is more of an unknown, Kun however has displayed extrordinary abilites, that put him above DE Sidious

Consider that JA Luke who was after DE Luke, was ripped from his body by Kun, a 4000 year old half mad spirit, and yet it still takes 12 padawans, Vodo and JA Luke to defeat him, meaning that a real flesh Kun would literally smash JA Luke.

DE Sidious while powerful, most likely does not compare to the Ancient Sith down to the Kotor Era, obviously its due to a number of reasons:
- Lack of Potential
- Lack of Knowledge

When i say potential, it means Sidious, has not truly demonstrated the feats required to be one of the most powerful ie in the top 5, as you can tell, most prodigies are able to invent their own techniques and in Revan you have one of the best Military Genius of any Dark Lord of the Sith

I said that Force Storms were easily conjured by him. I said that the time was three to five seconds at best. They may require a staggering amount of ability. Secondly, no other SW character has replicated this feat - so while absence of proof is not proof of absence - I suppose that by your standards it is possible for DE Sidious to replicate Kreia's instakill, despite the fact that he never used it.

Secondly, Revan's tactical ability has nothing to do with his ranking in Force power. If that were the case, Thrawn would be above Revan - despite the fact that Thrawn had no Force abilities.

Thirdly, Revan is an unknown. You do not know the scope of his abilities, and neither do I. The reason is that it has not been expanded upon. At this point in the juncture, DE Sidious has performed abilities that place him above and beyond Revan - especially in Force abilities.

Originally posted by Wesker
By your logic thus far, Sidious has never demonstrated the ability to block Traya's instakill attack, therefore he cannot. And the point is that it's likely he -could- not defeat such an attack, as it literally was instantaneous.



Sidious is only seen destroying the likes of Luke and a few pointless jedi. And killing starships is pretty piss-poor in personal combat. True, it's a remarkable achievement, but starships and naval crews have no real defence against the force. Jedi do.



Translation: We have only seen Force Storm be defended by one defense. Therefore, that must be the only defense.

I shouldn't have to bust into a sermon to point out how illogical this conclusion is. I haven't seen Obi-Wan defend against Dooku's force choke properly, but I'd be a moron to assume that no one else can either. I've only seen Yoda deflect lightning with his hands, but I'd really be living life on the edge if I concluded that only he could do it. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


In feats and force powers? Perhaps. In saber combat he is inferior to both. And the idea that his force storm takes three to five seconds is ridiculous.

It takes three to five seconds for this sentence.

You mean to tell me that they enacted a defense against this force storm in that amount of time? That's not only ridiculous; it's unproven. And the likelihood of it working on another sith lord is probably nil. After all, everyone acts like Sidious was this vacuum and he discovered the Force Storm and none of the sith lords who predated him by thousands of years and pioneered the knowledge would know a defense against it. Of course.

This isn't "biased anti Sidious ramblings", Escape... It's a dose of reality. The only thing I'm seeing biased here is your approach and singlemindedness to prop up Sidious. You don't have to do that. I like the character a lot. He's an excellent character. But excellent characters don't neccessarily have to be propped up and pwn all. Obi-Wan Kenobi is my favorite character of all time. Guess how many times I've made threads to prop him up? None.

Now, what I see here are barely substantiated feats and a force storm that can't possibly be that fast and probably can be defended against anyways. To say nothing of the saber abilities.

1. I stated in the other thread that it is possible for Kreia to defeat him, as her attack is quicker and has the same effect in personal combat. I did however state that he is capable of far more destruction than she.

2. In personal combat, Sidious's feats of destroying ships is not valid, true. I did not mean to mean otherwise. However, we have not seen Kreia or Revan do such things - which again - in Force powers - I rank him above those two.

3. Pointless Jedi? Interesting words . . . and again. DE Luke possessed the power at that time to take down an AT-AT singlehandedly - not to state that no other Jedi/Sith can do that (but I'm not arguing that Sidious is the most powerful, either).

4. I agree.

5. No offense Janus, but this is a bit odd. It is inconceivable to you. But here is the thing. To my knowledge, you have not seen Dark Empire. I used to own the book and I see it quite frequently. Thus, I believe that my knowledge of the subject surpasses your own at this time. It took only a few seconds for Sidious to conjure the storm. I am sorry if this seems to be blasphemy - but it happened.

6. The Sith Lords who predated him were never displayed using this technique. So while absence of proof is not proof of absence, it isn't guarenteed that any of them knew this technique. Only a possibility. And until such time that you can prove that they knew the technique, I don't think it's fair to assume that they can.

Originally posted by Hello Friend
It was their full force potential... all three of them. That should be like 3 fully powered Luke Skywalkers...

Thank you.

Some people around here scoff at that notion and deem it weak.

Originally posted by Escape81
1. Go back and re-read, Kamikz. I didn't say it combined their experience. I said it combined their Force Attunement. Their connection to the Force. Three Skywalkers' connection to the Force, which is a staggering amount of power considering that they possess the strongest attunement to the Force as a family that we have seen.

2. Again - I took this arguement from another thread I wrote on. In it, I do state that Kreia has an excellent shot of killing DE Sidious, because her instakill is quicker and he has no proven defense against it.

1. It was? Well did they have problems? Is it possible that they didn't need all that power to stop him, mabey they just needed the full attunment of 1 Skywalker, but 3 would be easier??

2. It wasen't against your post, I was just answering to the Kreia instant kill ability.

Originally posted by kamikz
1. It was? Well did they have problems? Is it possible that they didn't need all that power to stop him, mabey they just needed the full attunment of 1 Skywalker, but 3 would be easier??

2. It wasen't against your post, I was just answering to the Kreia instant kill ability.

1. DE Luke and DE Sidious had fought a few seconds before this, and Sidious owned him in three different ways. Thus, Leia knew that Luke was either going to be slaughtered by Palpatine or corrupted to the Dark Side (again) - so she innately triggered the 'Luminous Beings' technique which resulted in Luke defeating Sidious.

2. Okay.

Originally posted by Escape81
Alright, Sorgo. I don't know what the problem is, but I frankly care to the grand sum of 'zero'. I've given up active debating, and instead wish to make a thread that can accurately gauge Sidious's power - because, sadly, the majority of debators are unfamilar with DE Sidious. So, I decided to make something to which they can refer to.

If you have a problem with it, I simply don't care.

Now, considering how you were a Dooku-uberfanboy for the majority of your tenure here (which is long before I came along), I don't think you hold the proper weight to criticize me, or imply anything.

But thanks for posting.

You're going to try to shift responsibility for what I USED to do for another lame ass excuse to cover up your shitty Fanboyism?

The maneuver of an Amateur, Escape.



I have a FULL right to criticize every SINGLE word that you type.

I've accepted that Dooku isn't the most powerful character in the entire Star Wars Universe. Not to mention back in the day I actually admitted to my Fanboyism.

I didn't make shitty excuses such as his lack of appreciation, which is ten fold more worse than Sidious' lack of appreciation, BTW.

Stop using that as a piss poor excuse to try to spread the pseudo word on Sidious' uber power which is inexistent.


Damn, man. He isn't the greatest character.


Get over it.

Originally posted by Escape81
I said that Force Storms were easily conjured by him. I said that the time was three to five seconds at best. They may require a staggering amount of ability. Secondly, no other SW character has replicated this feat - so while absence of proof is not proof of absence - I suppose that by your standards it is possible for DE Sidious to replicate Kreia's instakill, despite the fact that he never used it.

Secondly, Revan's tactical ability has nothing to do with his ranking in Force power. If that were the case, Thrawn would be above Revan - despite the fact that Thrawn had no Force abilities.

Thirdly, Revan is an unknown. You do not know the scope of his abilities, and neither do I. The reason is that it has not been expanded upon. At this point in the juncture, DE Sidious has performed abilities that place him above and beyond Revan - especially in Force abilities.

True, i do not doubt that DE Sidious is above Revan, until Kotor 3 comes out, but placing him on par with a Dark Lord like Kun, is getting biased.

Most Sithlords can produce force storms in 3-5 seconds, but their area of effect and its strength, varies because it may not neccesarrily be stronger due to a smaller force potential.

Its possible he could've, but its extremely unlikely that DE Sidious would replicate a technique that was done in the older era's while Force Storm was common knowledge amongst the Sith from the Ancients to the Kotor Era, however Force Storm is not unique, nor is its timing. You haven't proven that DE Sidious if ranked with Kun, sure you displayed a good solid evidence on Sidious's feats, but to be honest Kun's unique display of Sith Magic, and his ability to craft the first ever Double Bladed Lightsaber as well his ability to kill the De Facto Grandmaster and many other Jedi Masters with a wave of his hand or a stab from his saber, puts him leagues above Sidious. Although Sidious is no weakling, he does not rank with Kun nor any of the Ancient Sith. However with Revan that is an unknown, but it is know Sidious is in the top 20 most powerful force users ever.

Sorgo, back in the day Escape made plenty of better arguments then I've ever seen come out of you. You often make every argument a personal attack. Take your time before making critisism of every one of his words.

Escape, I agree with you that DE Sidious' power isn't nearly recognized to the level that it should be. That's mostly Lightsnake's fault, as his horrible arguments ruined the character for most people.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorgo, back in the day Escape made plenty of better arguments then I've ever seen come out of you. You often make every argument a personal attack. Take your time before making critisism of every one of his words.

Escape, I agree with you that DE Sidious' power isn't nearly recognized to the level that it should be. That's mostly Lightsnake's fault, as his horrible arguments ruined the character for most people.



You're the last person who has any right of saying ANYTHING about another's quality of arguing when you're Mr. Logic Breaker in your arguments.


Not to mention, lots of people are irritated with your shoddy quality of arguing, which is most of the time consistant of you repeating yourself perpetually or saying something out right stupid.

Y'know, like George Lucas' word isn't proof and that the Sidious VS Yoda fight wasn't Canon.


Take your time before spewing such pathetic hypocrisy.


Every word is a personal attack because I'm damn tired of people like YOU!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorgo, back in the day Escape made plenty of better arguments then I've ever seen come out of you. You often make every argument a personal attack. Take your time before making critisism of every one of his words.

Escape, I agree with you that DE Sidious' power isn't nearly recognized to the level that it should be. That's mostly Lightsnake's fault, as his horrible arguments ruined the character for most people.

Funny, considering you were quick to accuse me of PT fanboyism when I debated against you in DTF. . . And actually, Escape's post was slightly more defensive than necessary, considering Sorgo wasn't attacking him the first time around.

Honestly, I think you all need to take a step back and calm down. There's no point in creating these schisms over the power, however underestimated, of Sidious.

Originally posted by Faunus
Funny, considering you were quick to accuse me of PT fanboyism when I debated against you in DTF. . . And actually, Escape's post was slightly more defensive than necessary, considering Sorgo wasn't attacking him the first time around.

Honestly, I think you all need to take a step back and calm down. There's no point in creating these schisms over the power, however underestimated, of Sidious.

Words of wisdom.

Sorgo, I at least attempt to make quality arguments, you on the other hand attack from the very start. So until you finally come up with a better argument then me, don't insult me, because I really don't give a damn what you have to say.

Let me tell you a few things on your claims though, as I never argued that Yoda vs. Sidious isn't canon. I did say that GL's word is not canon though because it goes against the movies. Did OT Vader appear to be 80% as powerful as Sidious? Also, if Anakin really did have ten times the potential of Sidious, as GL stated, then why would losing only half his body mass make him a mere 80% as powerful as Sidious? GL contradicts himself far to often to be a reliable source of information.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorgo, when you finally come up with a better argument then me you can talk. Until then, don't insult me, because I really don't give a damn what you have to say.

And obviously you have no clue what you are talking about as I never argued that Yoda vs. Sidious isn't canon. I did say that GL's word is not canon though because it goes against the movies. Did OT Vader appear to be 80% as powerful as Sidious? Also, if Anakin really did have ten times the potential of Sidious, as GL stated, then why would losing only half his body mass make him a mere 80% as powerful as Sidious. GL contradicts himself far to often to be a reliable source of information.


You should give a damn about what I have to say. It's all factual statements.


Don't try to act like a superior debater than me because you aren't.

Actually, I'm getting f*cking tired of you trying to degrade my debating skills to make yourself look better.

Your Arrogance and shitty excuses are truthfully no surprise at all.


You're trying to say that the Man who created the Star Wars Universe isn't a "Reliable Source of Information?"


I'd love to see you create something a QUARTER as good as Star Wars and let's see if you don't trip over yourself in contradiction, Glentract.

You have argued that their battle wasn't Canon. Janus was jumping around these Forums with a signature saying that you did and he showed me the thread one time.

I wish I could remember it JUST to squash your lying ass into the ground, along with your pathetic display of arrogance and stupidity.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sorgo, I at least attempt to make quality arguments, you on the other hand attack from the very start. So until you finally come up with a better argument then me, don't insult me, because I really don't give a damn what you have to say.

Let me tell you a few things on your claims though, as I never argued that Yoda vs. Sidious isn't canon. I did say that GL's word is not canon though because it goes against the movies. Did OT Vader appear to be 80% as powerful as Sidious? Also, if Anakin really did have ten times the potential of Sidious, as GL stated, then why would losing only half his body mass make him a mere 80% as powerful as Sidious? GL contradicts himself far to often to be a reliable source of information.

No, you DID say that we couldn't rely on Sidious versus Yoda because it was "too inconsistant".

You also use GL to support you when he does and then piss on him when he doesn't support you. YOU are inconsistant, not everything else. You think that Luke is magically better than he really is in the movies, and when I point out that he's not you say GL says he's better and when I point out he doesn't you go to some other point. You're a bad debator and a fanboy. Being called poor by you is pure hypocrisy.

The problem is that none of you got my point when I said that the fights in SW are inconsistent. I'll say that was my fault, I didn't explain what I was trying to say well enough. I was making at the time an argument that is commonly used. My point was that bad technology in ROTJ made the fights not as good as they would be if they were made now. I later admitted that idea isn't a good argument.

Janus, I tried using GL to support what I was saying back a long time ago. I was arguing for OT Vader, saying that he is 80% as strong as Sidious, meaning that he could beat some guy who's name I don't remember. YOU argued that GL is a non-reliable source that we couldn't consider a higher level of canon. You changed mind. Later, when I make the same argument that you used against me, it's suddenly the way around? Now GL is a higher level of canon then the movies? WTF is up with you. You change you story as often, if not more, then I do.

Can you really say that my arguments are worse then Sorgo's when throughout this entire thread he has yet to make a single argument against Sidious? He attacked Escape and then he attacked me. And really, I admit to not being the best debator on the block, but I try to keep personal attacks to a minimum. The same can't be said Mr. Sorgo here.

You should give a damn about what I have to say. It's all factual statements.


Don't try to act like a superior debater than me because you aren't.

Actually, I'm getting f*cking tired of you trying to degrade my debating skills to make yourself look better.

Your Arrogance and shitty excuses are truthfully no surprise at all.


You're trying to say that the Man who created the Star Wars Universe isn't a "Reliable Source of Information?"


I'd love to see you create something a QUARTER as good as Star Wars and let's see if you don't trip over yourself in contradiction, Glentract.

You have argued that their battle wasn't Canon. Janus was jumping around these Forums with a signature saying that you did and he showed me the thread one time.

I wish I could remember it JUST to squash your lying ass into the ground, along with your pathetic display of arrogance and stupidity.

Where's this awsome debating skill Sorgo? All I see are a bunch of personal attacks and zero agruments against DE Sidious.

I love the redirection.

Glentract, I've said that GL is NOT the superior figure in EU matters because he signed off on it and he did not create EU characters. EU is effectively not canon. The instance you're thinking about is when you took the 80% of Vader as a literal fact and truth and applied it with some of the worst mathematics to grace KMC and made some kind of cocked up theory with it. Also, you have tried to apply TWO theories supposively from GL: one that Vader's original potential was 10x Sidious; second, that OT Vader is 80% of Sidious, and therefore higher than other people in the PT and therefore Luke pwns them. I told you that IF George Lucas said those things THEN he was not a reliable source of information because he could not make up his mind. Please put things in proper context, kthx.

I am pretty damn consistant, btw. I use evidence and I have an objective outlook. You are biased, poor at debating, and a certified bullshitter who thinks he knows more than everyone else.



Cuz they are. Sorgo doesn't come to me with cocked up pseudoscience theories or tell me that GL doesn't make canon for his own movies despite evidence otherwise (Check the SW canon policy, Glentract.... what the hell). Sorgo doesn't come to me and tell me that Luke is better because he beat Vader who is eighty per cent of ten times of Sidious who beat Yoda, therefore Luke > PT Jedi Council.

I'm not here to point out whether or not Sorgo is justified in his attacks because I personally don't give a damn. I just hate to see you pretending like you're the most level headed and nice person here when you're a damn hypocrite.

Are you hearing what I'm saying? I'm admitting that I'm not the best at debating. I've been saying it for a long time. How would that help me in pretending that I'm the most knowledgeable person here?

The instance I'm thinking about I was arguing for Vader, not Luke.

Oh, and once you can show how my arguments are based on pseudoscience, then you can call them that. Assuming that my arguments are pseudoscience right off the bat is stupid. Prove my math wrong, until then you have no basis to call me a fanboy(except ROTJ Luke. I admit that I am a fanboy there) or a bullshitter.

I never bragged or compared my Debating skills.

Wait a minute now... That was you! And it looks like you've displayed a taste of your shitty debating skills.

'Tis a shame.





I attacked Escape now? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

I pointed out the obvious. His threads are 80% Sidious-related, Most of the time he is seen arguing about that character and he continues to make "Support" threads complaining that no one appreciates Sidious as some lame excuse to cover his Fanboyism.


You should try to keep those shoddy debating skills to a minimum as well, Glentract.


The primary reason I posted in this thread is because of the fact Escape is perpetually seen praising Sidious and such.

It's ridiculous and idiotic.


Hell, when I was a Dooku Fanboy, I didn't make one thread praising him and I never tried covering it up. I told the truth about it.

I hate people that lie about Fanboyism.

Especially those who deny it.

Especially Luke Fanboys.

So, Saying that your debating skills aren't superior to mine is bragging?

Now you're trying to turn the tables.

Give me a second while I turn them back.

Saying that you aren't a Superior Debater isn't bragging or comparing. Anyone with half a brain could see that from a Mile away.





That post was a defense against Escape lashing out at the "Fact" I had mentioned. Why don't you quote the post he made before I made that post, Glentract? Here, I can wait.



What's this? Looks like you've been caught in some bullshit of your own.



Congratulations, Glentract! You're a HYPOCRITE!



I won't STFU.


I suggest you make me STFU rather than just type a useless acronym.


Go big or go home.

So, Saying that your debating skills aren't superior to mine is bragging?

Now you're trying to turn the tables.

Give me a second while I turn them back.

Saying that you aren't a Superior Debater isn't bragging or comparing. Anyone with half a brain could see that from a Mile away.

I don't know what such statements mean where you come from, but where I live, such statements are bragging.

That post was a defense against Escape lashing out at the "Fact" I had mentioned. Why don't you quote the post he made before I made that post, Glentract? Here, I can wait.

Now, considering how you were a Dooku-uberfanboy for the majority of your tenure here (which is long before I came along), I don't think you hold the proper weight to criticize me, or imply anything.

Guess what, he's right. You were the uber Dooku fanboy. But apparently since you no longer are, then we shouldn't ever look back at that. Then the same would go for me and some of my less great statements.

What's this? Looks like you've been caught in some bullshit of your own.



Congratulations, Glentract! You're a HYPOCRITE!



I won't STFU.


I suggest you make me STFU rather than just type a useless acronym.


Go big or go home.

That was really disappointing Sorgo. All I got from you was more misplaced insults. Where is that arguments against DE Sidious?

So, ME saying that YOU are not a Superior Debater is bragging where you live? I smell more bullshit . . . Or an excuse . . . NO! BOTH!



MORE HYPOCRISY! YAY!

This is coming from the ultimate Luke Fanboy who is still one TO THIS DAY!

I am no longer a Dooku fanboy. I can accept that certain Characters can wipe the floor with him and that he isn't Uber strong. Even when I was a Fanboy many months ago, I didn't create a bunch of threads nor did I just stick to arguing about him NOR did I deny my Fanboyism with a crappy excuse.

By the way: Like I said before, he switched responsibility from him to me for something I don't even practice anymore.




Misplaced Insults? It seems you've lied again to cover up a lie.

How damn pathetic. I'm tired of playing Semantics with you, Glentract. I've explained to you why I've come to thread at least twice now. Are you inept at reading or does your awareness just flat out suck?

Escape is a Sidious Fanboy.

Do you even understand that concept yet?

There, I threw out a f*cking accusation. I'm not dancing around this shit anymore.

Where the hell are your arguments against Sidious? You CANNOT reasonably call Escape a fanboy until you prove that his statements towards Sidious being powerful aren't true. Do that or shut up. It's simple.

No, I didn't answer the rest of your statements as they're so full of BS it's sick.

It's all been said before.

An Author cannot dictate that kind of conclusion on a Character he didn't create.

Fine, I'll go create a book and say Kit Fisto is stronger than Sidious, okay?


^ Does that mean it's true? Of course not.


Lucas has mentioned that the Authors have a seperate universe than his. Kevin's opinion is moot.



You didn't answer the rest of my statements because you're unable to.

You just lied again and you're saying I'm lying? That's more hypocrisy.

Holy, I'm running in circles with you!

What was my lie? You're so lost in dillusions you can't even tell that I don't care what you think because you are an idiot.

Again, where is your proof that Sidious isn't as strong as Escape claims?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What was my lie? You're so lost in dillusions you can't even tell that I don't care what you think because you are an idiot.

Again, where is your proof that Sidious isn't as strong as Escape claims?

You lied about calling my statements BS which were all true to the fullest. You admitted yourself you're a Luke Fanboy, Escape is a Fanboy and I'm no longer a Dooku Fanboy.


You complete moron. I just stated it above, for christs sakes!

Again, are you inept at reading or does your awareness just suck?


Let me join in the game!


Where is your proof that Sidious isn't as weak as Janus claims?





Like I said earlier, read my motive for coming here.


You obviously still lack the understanding.

Originally posted by Wesker

I shouldn't have to bust into a sermon to point out how illogical this conclusion is. I haven't seen Obi-Wan defend against Dooku's force choke properly, but I'd be a moron to assume that no one else can either. I've only seen Yoda deflect lightning with his hands, but I'd really be living life on the edge if I concluded that only he could do it. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

How about you all drop this "you suck at debating" debate, because quite frankly it just looks stupid..

Its also quite funny actually, but the irony probably escapes you at this time.

So instead of that just defeat Escape his points without calling him a fanboy or support them without calling the other side a fanboy. Just stick to the points and lay of the personal insults.

Agreed.

You're right.

I'm done.