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Is Spider-Man fast enough to beat She Hulk?

They fought in the comics. I just can't remember who won at the moment.

Though Spiderman should win, since he has battled the hulk, and has even admitted to knowing how to kill him.

She-hulk. As much as i like Spider-man, God knows she-hulk is far stronger, just as well trained and unlike some dumbass bricks, pete fought, is quite intelligent.

Spider-Man is a master at beating people stronger then him.

ditto

Originally posted by golem370
Is Spider-Man fast enough to beat She Hulk?
He's fast enough to avoid her, but all she'd have to do is perform a thunderclap to knock him out.

If Spidey gets prep, he might figure out a way to take her out, but even then it's iffy.

You forget Spider-Sense

Ok, I just asked one of my buds who won this battle, and he claims Spidey knocked her out cold. I don't have access to my comic collection at the moment, but if someone could get a scan, that would be nice.

You must also realized she wasn't class 100 back then and less trained. Nowadays, she just bitchslaps titania who put her into coma during SW(yes i know spider-man beat her too but she was dumb as a post)

Originally posted by golem370
You forget Spider-Sense
No I didn't. I already said he could dodge her blows, but he can't move at the speed of sound. One thunderclap can at least stun him long enough for She-Hulk to get her hands on him.

Well maybe but Spider-Man is seemingly stronger to and more expereniced then when they last fought.

Originally posted by Hit and Run
No I didn't. I already said he could dodge her blows, but he can't move at the speed of sound. One thunderclap can at least stun him long enough for She-Hulk to get her hands on him. But he dodged Speed demon's blows, who was fast/ faster than Quicksilver. His power and his fighting abilties have improved greatly since then(read the other storyline).

I beg to differ If he far enough away Spider-Man can dodge bullets and lasers

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
But he dodged Speed demon's blows, who was fast/ faster than Quicksilver. His power and his fighting abilties have improved greatly since then(read the other storyline).

http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=22219st.gif

Spiderman webbing up Speed demon

http://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28016vj.gif

Spidey owning him again...
Alright, a thunderclap isn't a super-fast punch. It's like a sonic boom, formed from the impact of a super-strong brick's hands coming together. It creates a deafening noise and a concussive force, both which would engulf the surrounding area in an instant.

Spider-Man can't dodge it because it would completely surround him. He would have to literally run out of the area at the faster than the speed of sound to "dodge it". If Spidey's upgrade allows him to run at at least Mach 1, then the thunderclap would be canceled out.

Could he not make a webbing sheild to block the blast

He could, but it won't be enough specially against the stunning sound effect afterwards and the force of impact.

Originally posted by golem370
Could he not make a webbing sheild to block the blast
No, because he'd take at least a second or two to web a shield up. All She-Hulk has to do is slam her hands together.

Even if he already had one up, the best it would do would soften up the blow, but it would not protect him from the head-splitting noise.

The scenario would go something like this:
http://img226.echo.cx/img226/9578/shockwavethunderclap125sj.jpg

He was caught of guard I still think he would be to fast for her to effect him. He would get web in her eyes and just unload like he did to Firelord.

Like what already been said, as fast as he is, he couldn't escape a thunderclap nor prevent She-hulk from doing it.

Originally posted by golem370
He was caught of guard I still think he would be to fast for her to effect him. He would get web in her eyes and just unload like he did to Firelord.
She-Hulk could lift that up with no trouble whatsoever.

She has been upgraded in the skill department recently, so webbing up her eyes would not be easy.
http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skillsfeat8if.jpg

Even so, Spider-man ain't knocking her out with fists alone. She-hulk took blows from Titania (who's much stronger than Spidey) and kept on going. Heck, not too long ago, she took a blow from a powered-up Titania and it just pissed her off. Also, look at the last panel here. It's a good example of how powerful a thunderclap can be.
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/6/shehulkversuspgtitania39uq.jpg

^^ Nice examples Hit and Run, but remember that after She-Hulk got pounded by Titania Spidey beat her.

There's a few things to this fight.

1. A thunderclap REALLY screws Spidey up.

2. She-Hulk has some durability issues that regular Hulk doesn't usually have. It's well within reason for Spidey to win this fight.

3. That thunderclap Hit and Run showed was when She-Hulk was very very pissed off. If she gets to this state and does that, Spidey's screwed. If she stays in regular mode and is calmer, Spidey not only has a legitimate shot to win, but he's probably the favorite.

So there you have it....like any good fight it could go either way. Draw She-Hulk to potential and she thunderclaps her way to victory every time...but she wouldn't always be angry enough to pull it off.

Don't forget that spider has new powers and robotic armor. If Spiderman beat her before it should be way easier for him to do it again.

argh Spidey vs She-Hulk.

Ok knowing that Spidey
can definately beatguys who
are stronger than him or girls,
he should be able to win.

But if you consider the power level of she-hulk, her combat training, than she wins more often than not. and dont forget.....she looks so hot

**** this stupid robotic armor SH wins.

I saw them briefly tangle in an old Marvel Team up. Basically She Hulk couldn't lay a hand on Spider Man because of his speed. However..whenever Spider Man mounted any type of attack on She Hulk she just shrugged it off. Even when he punched her square in the face it hurt his fist far more than it hurt her, and this was early 80s when she was class 75, she's over twice as strong as that now.

It goes like this, the fight is a stalemate unless Shulkie can land a blow, then Spidey's finished.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
I saw them briefly tangle in an old Marvel Team up. Basically She Hulk couldn't lay a hand on Spider Man because of his speed. However..whenever Spider Man mounted any type of attack on She Hulk she just shrugged it off. Even when he punched her square in the face it hurt his fist far more than it hurt her, and this was early 80s when she was class 75, she's over twice as strong as that now.

It goes like this, the fight is a stalemate unless Shulkie can land a blow, then Spidey's finished.

Yes, she can.

Thunderclap.

I also remember a fight (ten years ago or so) in which a very angry Spider-Man knocked She-Hulk across the room. She sure felt it, and the Avengers had to separate them.

I am NOT saying Spider-Man would win, but well, erm, just, well you know...

Originally posted by Hit and Run
He's fast enough to avoid her, but all she'd have to do is perform a thunderclap to knock him out.

If Spidey gets prep, he might figure out a way to take her out, but even then it's iffy.

yeah thats why I got to go with she hulk.Without prep,spidey has no prayer.With Prep,he might have a chance.at least this thread isnt like that one idiotic thread of batman vs rogue because spidey would at least put up a fight with she hulk or rogue where batman cannot.

IMO, Spidey's main problem here is that he can't make a single mistake (thanks to Shehulk's strength). One single slip-up that allows She Hulk to get her hands on him and he's dead. That may not be such a disadvantage as he certainly could keep his distance with his greater mobility. However he lacks any real long range attack that could hurt her, so eventually he'd have to get in close (not that his close range attacks could really hurt her either). When that happens, a thunderclap or a lucky shot would put him down.

Really, as most people have said, as long as She Hulk does a thunderclap, it's all over. If she doesn't use one for some unknown reason, then Spidey may have a chance, but that's like saying Spidey forgets that he has webs.

Originally posted by Arahan
argh Spidey vs She-Hulk.
. and dont forget.....she looks so hot Yeah, I know. Now if only she had red hair. The fight would be over before it even started.

Originally posted by who?-kid
I also remember a fight (ten years ago or so) in which a very angry Spider-Man knocked She-Hulk across the room. She sure felt it, and the Avengers had to separate them.

I am NOT saying Spider-Man would win, but well, erm, just, well you know...

well that can be chucked up to just bad writing though.as strong as she hulk is that could never happen realistically.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
I saw them briefly tangle in an old Marvel Team up. Basically She Hulk couldn't lay a hand on Spider Man because of his speed. However..whenever Spider Man mounted any type of attack on She Hulk she just shrugged it off. Even when he punched her square in the face it hurt his fist far more than it hurt her, and this was early 80s when she was class 75, she's over twice as strong as that now.

It goes like this, the fight is a stalemate unless Shulkie can land a blow, then Spidey's finished.

thats why spidey would never have a chance because all it takes is one punch to spidey and he is ko'ed where he cant even hurt she hulk with a punch to the face.thats realistic writing because she hulk is much stronger than spidey is.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
well that can be chucked up to just bad writing though.as strong as she hulk is that could never happen realistically.

just as, realistically, radioactive spiders give people super powers rather than poisoning

Originally posted by TheKahn
IMO, Spidey's main problem here is that he can't make a single mistake (thanks to Shehulk's strength). One single slip-up that allows She Hulk to get her hands on him and he's dead. That may not be such a disadvantage as he certainly could keep his distance with his greater mobility. However he lacks any real long range attack that could hurt her, so eventually he'd have to get in close (not that his close range attacks could really hurt her either). When that happens, a thunderclap or a lucky shot would put him down.

cosign

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
She-hulk. As much as i like Spider-man, God knows she-hulk is far stronger, just as well trained and unlike some dumbass bricks, pete fought, is quite intelligent.

agreed

SHE HULK WINS

Originally posted by Mr Parker
well that can be chucked up to just bad writing though.as strong as she hulk is that could never happen realistically.
Why is that bad writing ? Is She-Hulk magically glued to the floor ? If Spider-Man hits her real hard (especially when she doesn't see it coming), she'll be flying...

Again of course I am NOT saying Spider-Man will win the fight...

Spidey stands a good chance so does she-hulk. I say this is a pretty even fight. However I don't know how much his chances have increased as a result of the Other storyline....................

she hulk is hot

she takes mary jane's place

Originally posted by who?-kid
Why is that bad writing ? Is She-Hulk magically glued to the floor ? If Spider-Man hits her real hard (especially when she doesn't see it coming), she'll be flying...

Again of course I am NOT saying Spider-Man will win the fight...


All superstrong characters have the ability to glue themselves to the ground (unless the writers want to send a character flying for dramatic effect). Most of the time they weigh less than a ton and yet are able to withstand attacks by opponents who have multi-ton class strength without moving

Logically in most of the fights between powerhouses they should be able to send each other flying all over the place with the force their strength can generate, but the kinetic energy from their attacks just doesn't seem to effect each other. It just one of thoes conventions that you have to accept.

Spiderman is too resourceful for she-hulk. I say he wins this 7/10.

Originally posted by TheKahn
All superstrong characters have the ability to glue themselves to the ground (unless the writers want to send a character flying for dramatic effect). Most of the time they weigh less than a ton and yet are able to withstand attacks by opponents who have multi-ton class strength without moving

Logically in most of the fights between powerhouses they should be able to send each other flying all over the place with the force their strength can generate, but the kinetic energy from their attacks just doesn't seem to effect each other. It just one of thoes conventions that you have to accept.
True. So basically you're saying that She-Hulk flying through the room is a realistic fight. I can live with that

(It's not my fault other -non-flying - fights suffer from bad writing)

Originally posted by TheKahn
All superstrong characters have the ability to glue themselves to the ground (unless the writers want to send a character flying for dramatic effect). Most of the time they weigh less than a ton and yet are able to withstand attacks by opponents who have multi-ton class strength without moving

Logically in most of the fights between powerhouses they should be able to send each other flying all over the place with the force their strength can generate, but the kinetic energy from their attacks just doesn't seem to effect each other. It just one of thoes conventions that you have to accept.

Perfect example: wolverine. He should fly all the time when he fights the hulk.

BTW: She-Hulk is mine, read my title

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Spiderman is too resourceful for she-hulk. I say he wins this 7/10.

Given the fact that she's class 200 and Spider Man is class 10 I really don't see how he could hurt her at all.

Spider-Man has hurt Firelord whos tougher then She Hulk

Firelord depowered himself at that fight, handicapping his strength level to it's base(which should probably be about 50 ton or something) and decided not to use the PC.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Given the fact that she's class 200 and Spider Man is class 10 I really don't see how he could hurt her at all.

but she wont beat him. hes too quick.

He doesn't have anything to prevent her from executing a thunder clap which is all that is needed to tip the favor of the fight.

he would see it coming. lol

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
he would see it coming. lol
Sure, but he wouldn't dodge it.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Firelord depowered himself at that fight, handicapping his strength level to it's base(which should probably be about 50 ton or something) and decided not to use the PC.

Not even that. His strength when amped is class 50.

Originally posted by Hit and Run
Sure, but he wouldn't dodge it.

Precisely. Agile as he is Spidey cant traverse distances quicker than the speed of sound.

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
but she wont beat him. hes too quick.


I feel sorry for Spidey when he gets tired

http://img417.imageshack.us/img417/2559/avengers500pic27ioth4dl.gif

Originally posted by golem370
Spider-Man has hurt Firelord whos tougher then She Hulk

On this forum that event is written off as PIS/CIS. In fact whenever a character performs a feat which is way beyond their stated powerset then you'll often see said instance dismissed with a "SvFL". Spiderman Vs Firelord. Check the forum rules.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not even that. His strength when amped is class 50.

Sorry man, but i have to disagree with that. It's way higher than just 50.
*He's block repeated attack from an angry drax before
*Matched Hercules blow-for-blow in a slugfest
*Got the better of Thor AND Hercules combined physically
*Fought Thor again HTH, left Thor downed and buried under rubble, then left assuming him beaten
*Again fought Thor, smacked a tossed Mjolnor away like a baseball, and Thor only gained the advantage because Firelord was off-par due to mind control (this is stated in the book)
*In his final fight with Thor, he MATCHED STRENGTH evenly with Thor, then engulfed them in flames, and as the heat got to Thor, Firelord overpowered Thor and was choking him out. Later, once Thor's away from the flame, they again trade blows evenly and match strength

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Sorry man, but i have to disagree with that. It's way higher than jut 50.

*He's block repeated attack from an angry drax before
*Matched Hercules blow-for-blow in a slugfest
*Got the better of Thor AND Hercules combined physically
*Fought Thor again HTH, left Thor downed and buried under rubble, then left assuming him beaten
*Again fought Thor, smacked a tossed Mjolnor away like a baseball, and Thor only gained the advantage because Firelord was off-par due to mind control (this is stated in the book)
*In his final fight with Thor, he MATCHED STRENGTH evenly with Thor, then engulfed them in flames, and as the heat got to Thor, Firelord overpowered Thor and was choking him out. Later, once Thor's away from the flame, they again trade blows evenly and match strength

You might disagree but according to his bio thats the situation:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6418124763.jpg&s=x10

Matching someone h2h in a fight doesnt equate you to them strength wise.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You might disagree but according to his bio thats the situation:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6418124763.jpg&s=x10

Matching someone h2h in a fight doesnt equate you to them strength wise.

A lot of people on this Forum would seriously disagree with you G.S.

I've tried this arguement many a time, and its usually is followed by an enourmous backlash.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You might disagree but according to his bio thats the situation:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6418124763.jpg&s=x10

Matching someone h2h in a fight doesnt equate you to them strength wise.


Is it just me to does FL's staff look like a giant Q-tip?
Galactus gives out some crappy weapons, although I really can't blame him as all he gets is purple armor and a giant ball.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
A lot of people on this Forum would seriously disagree with you G.S.

I've tried this arguement many a time, and its usually is followed by an enourmous backlash.

Apparently im right so im not gonna let myself be swayed by popular opinion.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Is it just me to does FL's staff look like a giant Q-tip?
Galactus gives out some crappy weapons, although I really can't blame him as all he gets is purple armor and a giant ball.

Lol

Indeed !

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Apparently im right so im not gonna let myself be swayed by popular opinion.

Just rember that writers dont swear by the 'Holy' Handbook !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Just rember that writers dont swear by the 'Holy' Handbook !

Nope but posters do as and when it coincides with their opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope but posters do as and when it coincides with their opinion.

* Sigh *

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You might disagree but according to his bio thats the situation:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/6418124763.jpg&s=x10

Matching someone h2h in a fight doesnt equate you to them strength wise.

it's true it's listed in the bio, so does adam warlock's mere 40. But in the comics, official strength levels are always inaccurate 90% of the time.

and the last fight that i listed wasn't only h2h, he overpowered thor and was choking him, a class 100 guy.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
it's true it's listed in the bio, so does adam warlock's mere 40. But in the comics, official strength levels are always inaccurate 90% of the time.

and the last fight that i listed wasn't only h2h, he overpowered thor and was choking him, a class 100 guy.

* Yahman bangs his head against a Class 100 wall *

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
it's true it's listed in the bio, so does adam warlock's mere 40. But in the comics, official strength levels are always inaccurate 90% of the time.

and the last fight that i listed wasn't only h2h, he overpowered thor and was choking him, a class 100 guy.

Can all be explained away. Firelord was bloodlusted, Thor wasnt fighting to the best of his ability. Advantage Firelord. Doesnt conclusively prove Firelord is beyond class 50. Lifting feats do that.

A class 100 getting overpowered by a guy half his strength and taking so long to brake out of a chokehold, i doubt that. It would've been true if it was only him but there was also a double team w/ hercules and an angry drax pounding on him instances.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can all be explained away. Firelord was bloodlusted, Thor wasnt fighting to the best of his ability. Advantage Firelord. Doesnt conclusively prove Firelord is beyond class 50. Lifting feats do that.


If Fire Lord can only lift 50 tons, he is an Ant in comparisson to Thor. I dont care how Blood Lusted he is, Ants dont beat Gods !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
A class 100 getting overpowered by a guy half his strength and taking so long to brake out of a chokehold, i doubt that. It would've been true if it was only him but there was also a double team w/ hercules and an angry drax pounding on him instances.

Can still be explained away. Firelord is bloodlusted. Thor isnt. The other powerhouses pounding on him simultaneously is a durability feat not a strength one. Regardless these instances you cite are not conclusive proof if need be they can be explained away by writers whether to your satisfaction or not that is irrelevant. You have no conclusive proof, no multiple lifting feats to suggest otherwise therefore your contrary opinion really isnt enough. The bio says he cosmically empowers himself to class 50, its an official source and with no on panel evidence to conclusively contradict that beyond all doubt as hard as it is to take your opinion cant be treated as fact in this debate. Official sources all the way.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can still be explained away. Firelord is bloodlusted. Thor isnt. The other powerhouses pounding on him simultaneously is a durability feat not a strength one. Regardless these instances you cite are not conclusive proof if need be they can be explained away by writers whether to your satisfaction or not that is irrelevant. You have no conclusive proof, no multiple lifting feats to suggest otherwise therefore your contrary opinion really isnt enough. The bio says he cosmically empowers himself to class 50, its an official source and with no on panel evidence to conclusively contradict that beyond all doubt as hard as it is to take your opinion cant be treated as fact in this debate. Official sources all the way.

Then this proves beyond a doubt that Supes would murder Thor. Supes does not get matched by Class 50 characters !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
If Fire Lord can only lift 50 tons, he is an Ant in comparisson to Thor. I dont care how Blood Lusted he is, Ants dont beat Gods !!!!!!!!

They werent arm wrestling, they werent engaged in tug of war, it wasnt a direct test of strength between the two so its really not as simple as that. Firelord managed to get Thor into a chokehold and Thor eventually broke free due to his superior strength. Is that conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond class 50?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
They werent arm wrestling, they werent engaged in tug of war, it wasnt a direct test of strength between the two so its really not as simple as that. Firelord managed to get Thor into a chokehold and Thor eventually broke free due to his superior strength. Is that conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond class 50?

Yes ........Ants cant put Gods in chokeholds.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Then this proves beyond a doubt that Supes would murder Thor. Supes does not get matched by Class 50 characters !!!!!!!!

Not in the slightest as it wasnt a test of strength between Firelord and Thor. On top of that everyone knows Supes is stronger than Thor anyway due to the canon crossover wherein it was shown in what actually was a direct test of strength, not a chokehold or a headlock.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not in the slightest as it wasnt a test of strength between Firelord and Thor. On top of that everyone knows Supes is stronger than Thor anyway due to the canon crossover wherein it was shown in what actually was a direct test of strength, not a chokehold or a headlock.

A Class 50 Chokehold, would feel like a Summer breeze to Supes, it would not put him in any form of discomfort what so ever, Unlike Thor.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
A Class 50 Chokehold, would feel like a Summer breeze to Supes, it would not put him in any form of discomfort what so ever, Unlike Thor.

Given the fact that Marvel has a habit of writing situations where characters match up well to others whom they really shouldnt do given their power set your point is moot. Is Spiderman way beyond class 15 is Wolverine way beyond 800lbs lifting ability, is Johnny Storm way above normal human strength level. The list is vast. You have nothing conclusive so let it go. The instances cited are open to interpretation, they are inconclusive they do not feature direct tests of strength, there are no lifting feats. You have nothing to go on but ego. Let it go.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can still be explained away. Firelord is bloodlusted. Thor isnt. The other powerhouses pounding on him simultaneously is a durability feat not a strength one. Regardless these instances you cite are not conclusive proof if need be they can be explained away by writers whether to your satisfaction or not that is irrelevant. You have no conclusive proof, no multiple lifting feats to suggest otherwise therefore your contrary opinion really isnt enough. The bio says he cosmically empowers himself to class 50, its an official source and with no on panel evidence to conclusively contradict that beyond all doubt as hard as it is to take your opinion cant be treated as fact in this debate. Official sources all the way.

man, you know very well as i do TOHOTMU is a pile of useless crap strewn together to try to make sense of things that defy physics. That's probably one advantage DC has over MU, which they don't try to serve inaccuracy written to make it seem they're more complex.

Anyway it's not a tug of war, it's more like a hand grapple. Heck, even thor comment they must've been gnats to him on the fight w/ herc h2h with firelord.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Given the fact that Marvel has a habit of writing situations where characters match up well to others whom they really shouldnt do given their power set your point is moot. Is Spiderman way beyond class 15 is Wolverine way beyond 800lbs lifting ability, is Johnny Storm way above normal human strength level. The list is vast. You have nothing conclusive so let it go. The instances cited are open to interpretation, they are inconclusive they do not feature direct tests of strength, there are no lifting feats. You have nothing to go on but ego. Let it go.

Or maybe the writer didn't read the Bio, or ignored it taking into consideration that Fire Lord is a Herald of Galactus with near limitless power, and decided that he was probably nearly as strong as Thor.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
man, you know very well as i do TOHOTMU is a pile of useless crap strewn together to try to make sense of things that defy physics. That's probably one advantage DC has over MU, which they don't try to serve inaccuracy written to make it seem they're more complex.

Anyway it's not a tug of war, it's more like a hand grapple. Heck, even thor comment they must've been gnats to him on the fight w/ herc h2h with firelord.

Agreed .... Gnats, Ants or whatever other insectual metaphor you want to use, they dont give power houses like Thor and Herc 'good fights'.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
man, you know very well as i do TOHOTMU is a pile of useless crap strewn together to try to make sense of things that defy physics. That's probably one advantage DC has over MU, which they don't try to serve inaccuracy written to make it seem they're more complex.

Anyway it's not a tug of war, it's more like a hand grapple. Heck, even thor comment they must've been gnats to him on the fight w/ herc h2h with firelord.

Maybe ive misinterpreted the last bit of your post but if Thor said that about Firelord then thats really not helping your case.

Agreed the handbooks arent always the most accurate resources however nothing short of lifting feats or a direct test of strength against a class 100 powerhouse is enough im afraid. Combat feats arent conclusive. If they were then Wolverine would be class 100. Officially hes class 50 so for debating purposes thats all we can use in debates.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Or maybe the writer didn't read the Bio, or ignored it taking into consideration that Fire Lord is a Herald of Galactus with near limitless power, and decided that he was probably nearly as strong as Thor.

Or maybe youre completely wrong and the handbook came out after those fights. Find me the issue number and i'll tell you.

Its bedtime nite nite.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe ive misinterpreted the last bit of your post but if Thor said that about Firelord then thats really not helping your case.

Agreed the handbooks arent always the most accurate resources however nothing short of lifting feats or a direct test of strength against a class 100 powerhouse is enough im afraid. Combat feats arent conclusive. If they were then Wolverine would be class 100. Officially hes class 50 so for debating purposes thats all we can use in debates.

problem with that though is that wolverine fights against bricks are

1) dodging
2) striking
3) getting hit.........getting up........then mutter "bub"
4) more PIS ensues

on the rare occassions, logic is followed

1) he dodges
2) he strikes
3) he get's caught by one counter attack and down goes the angry canuck such as case on his fight against sasquatch and savage hulk.

part of those are attributed to his durability and regen but he has never shown strength comparable to his opponents.


But he never ever ever tries to hand grapple with his opponent nor choke them nor taken on double team of class 100's.

Originally posted by who?-kid
I also remember a fight (ten years ago or so) in which a very angry Spider-Man knocked She-Hulk across the room. She sure felt it, and the Avengers had to separate them.

I am NOT saying Spider-Man would win, but well, erm, just, well you know...

Pissed off Spidey seems to rival the Hulk

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Then this proves beyond a doubt that Supes would murder Thor. Supes does not get matched by Class 50 characters !!!!!!!!

Supes DOES get matched by people with magical weaponry and powers. Like, say, Thor.



As for the whole debate, hand to hand doesn't make a difference of strength. In the case of Shulkie vs Spidey, Jen only weighs about 600-700lbs at most. Spidey can lift 15 tons and probably hit with enough force to move a couple tons.

Jen can hold her ground all she wants, but her durability doesn't matter if her WEIGHT is being moved. On top of that, strength isn't durability. To a point it does, but that's very little.


As for Firelord vs Thor, Class 50 to class 100 isn't a big difference. It's like peak human vs class 10. The latter has the advantage, but the former isn't horribly outclassed.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
problem with that though is that wolverine fights against bricks are

1) dodging
2) striking
3) getting hit.........getting up........then mutter "bub"
4) more PIS ensues

on the rare occassions, logic is followed

1) he dodges
2) he strikes
3) he get's caught by one counter attack and down goes the angry canuck such as case on his fight against sasquatch and savage hulk.

part of those are attributed to his durability and regen but he has never shown strength comparable to his opponents.


But he never ever ever tries to hand grapple with his opponent nor choke them nor taken on double team of class 100's.

How many times has Wolverine Choke held the Hulk ? ..... I bet its somewhere in the region of, ummm none !!!!!! The same applies with Soiderman. Infact I bet even someone as strong as the Thing would have difficulty, performing such a manouvre

Originally posted by MuffinmanMike



As for Firelord vs Thor, Class 50 to class 100 isn't a big difference. It's like peak human vs class 10. The latter has the advantage, but the former isn't horribly outclassed.

'It's like peak human vs class 10.'

Puhhhh lease .... youre saying Thor can only lift 500 tons, which is utter bull crap. Thor could lift 500 tons with his eye lashes !!!!!!

Thor eventually freed himself from the chokehold due to his superior strength so whats the problem. It was a choke hold not an arm wrestle not a direct pitting of strength so your point is moot. She hulk at a time when she was class 75 has also held Thor in a choke hold for a little while before he managed to free himself, just check out her respect thread. Theres a precedence for weaker characters being able to restrain and match up to far superior characters in Marvel. The instances pointed out arent conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond his stat figures. On top of that you've stated youve stated that level 7 characters like Thor have as much strength as and when they need it to perform mammoth tasks. In Marvel characters who perform such feats dont wield and apply such strength on a daily basis in every situation. They just have an incalulable level of strength which grows to meet their needs. That explains why weaker character can match them for a little while before being overpowered. Regardless you yourself have regularly turned your nose up at combat feats as a measure of strength so its puzzling to see you now using Firelords as an example of him being virtually class 100.

I'll try to get some visual aid here.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
The problem with though was it wasn't just a mere chockhold, they were grappling with their hands before that in a match of strength with firelord winning. If he wasn't anywhere near 100, he wouldn't have done that. And thor didn't break the chokehold without struggle either. Jen's choke on thor might be similar, but then again TOHOTMU's strength gauge is crap.

And no, chokehold on stronger beings isn't as infrequent as you're implying. There are few exceptions like some vampires *cough*dracula*cough* and others, but heralds would hardly seem the type to, heck even engaging h2h is a rare occurence for them.

Come up with a variety of lifitng feats for Firelord and you've made your point. Combat feats are insufficent. Many a weak character has faced off and done well against characters far superior to them, however such showings are not regular for them, they are not consistently shown to be within the characters power set, hence why such occassions are ignored in the handbooks and should be marked off as bad writing or possibly even CIS on the stronger characters part. Regardless you have nothing conclusive. By your logic a whol ehost of normal human characters such as Storm, Human Torch, Captain America and the like would be superhuman powerhouses. Theres a precedence for such OTT writing from time to time in the past. It is ignored officially. You have nothing CONCLUSIVE to go on.

BTW who was marking off chokeholds on stronger beings as infrequent. Re-read my post and you'll see all along ive been making a case for weaker beings putting superior ones at a disadvantage. That point is detrimental to your case so why you've just highlighted it in your post is most puzzling. Do such occassions mean the weaker characters are on par with the superior ones? Not necessarily Are they CONCLUSIVE evidence?

Firelords updated bio will be released in 2 months and who knows he may well be upgraded to a higher class and then he may not be. However officially he is class 50 for now and he has no conclusive on panel showings to tell us otherwise.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
I'll try to get some visual aid here.

Tell me the appropriate issues and i'll hav it done within 20

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Come up with a variety of lifitng feats for Firelord and you've made your point. Combat feats are insufficent. Many a weak character has faced off and done well against characters far superior to them, however such showings are not regular for them, they are not consistently shown to be within the characters power set, hence why such occassions are ignored in the handbooks and should be marked off as bad writing or possibly even CIS on the stronger characters part. Regardless you have nothing conclusive. By your logic a whol ehost of normal human characters such as Storm, Human Torch, Captain America and the like would be superhuman powerhouses. Theres a precedence for such OTT writing from time to time in the past. It is ignored officially. You have nothing CONCLUSIVE to go on.

Like i said, if it weren't only for the fact they were grappling. I concur that there are no lifting feats for Firelord considering he's a herald and i haven't seen any herald lift any ever. Even Silver Surfer. Now, would lifting be the only test to measure one's strength?

BTW who was marking off chokeholds on stronger beings as infrequent. Re-read my post and you'll see all along ive been making a case for weaker beings putting superior ones at a disadvantage. That point is detrimental to your case so why you've just highlighted it in your post is most puzzling. Do such occassions mean the weaker characters are on par with the superior ones? Not necessarily Are they CONCLUSIVE evidence?

Implying. It seems that way to me, if i'm wrong, my bad then.

Firelords updated bio will be released in 2 months and who knows he may well be upgraded to a higher class and then he may not be. However officially he is class 50 for now and he has no conclusive on panel showings to tell us otherwise.

BIO's are hardly acurrate time and time again. Do you have to honestly take it like a marvel bible or something? They provide good source of info on the character's background, but they screw up 90% of the time on strength levels and powerset.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Like i said, if it weren't only for the fact they were grappling. I concur that there are no lifting feats for Firelord considering he's a herald and i haven't seen any herald lift any ever. Even Silver Surfer. Now, would lifting be the only test to measure one's strength?

Given Firelords contradictive bio and the precedence for weaker characters to perform well against far superior characters then yes a variety of lifting feats are just about the only conclusive way to prove Firelords lifting capacity. Namor went through the same thing being previously marked as class 85 however he was written performing a number of impressive lifting feats which saw his rating increased. Who knows Firelord may very well have his rating increased but as of right now theres nothing conclusive on panel to show hes way beyond his class 50 rating.



Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Implying. It seems that way to me, if i'm wrong, my bad then.

Cool.


Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
BIO's are hardly acurrate time and time again. Do you have to honestly take it like a marvel bible or something? They provide good source of info on the character's background, but they screw up 90% of the time on strength levels and powerset.

Well first off that figures your opinion. Youre right the handbooks arent 100% accurate however thats irrelevant in this case as Firelord has no conclusive strength feats to tell us that his bio is one of the inaccurate ones. Combat feats for the aforementioned reasons are not conclusive. Theres no past showings of Firelords to tell us these few combat feats are nothing but bad writing.

Well at the moment, i'd also settle for inconclusive. But i really don't think it's limits should be just 50 tons. IMO it should be more based on his combat performance otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him by Thor on melee.

Damn Marvel , i wish there were other highlights on heralds aside from Shiny Space Jesus.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Well at the moment, i'd also settle for inconclusive. But i really don't think it's limits should be just 50 tons. IMO it should be more based on his combat performance otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him by Thor on melee.

Damn Marvel, i wish there were other highlights on heralds aside from Shiny Space Jesus.

Well considering thats the only official figure we have thats all we can treat as fact in debate. We have no showings of his to let us know those few instances (which im betting were around the same period) were nothing but examples of bad writing. Given the far superior foes Thors taken down it seems that could be the case.

Especially when it's just a chokehold. Your neck is a very vulnerable spot on your body.


Generally it is, as Marvels strength scale measures their ability to military press the weight over their head.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On this forum that event is written off as PIS/CIS. In fact whenever a character performs a feat which is way beyond their stated powerset then you'll often see said instance dismissed with a "SvFL". Spiderman Vs Firelord. Check the forum rules.
Those forum rules sound a bit like censorship.

Nobody complains about Batman punching Hulk in the stomach, but a very long, hard fight in which Spider-Man barely wins against a second rate Herald, is suddenly the prime example of PIS/CIS ?

Spider-Man has taken on (and beaten) other powerhouses too (Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Absorbing Man, Titania, IM 2020 to name a few), some as least as powerful as Firelord.

The fight was indeed a bit exaggerated (what fight isn't ?) but not so much as you may think. It was a pretty good fight end of story.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Those forum rules sound a bit like censorship.

Nobody complains about Batman punching Hulk in the stomach, but a very long, hard fight in which Spider-Man barely wins against a second rate Herald, is suddenly the prime example of PIS/CIS ?

Spider-Man has taken on (and beaten) other powerhouses too (Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Absorbing Man, Titania, IM 2020 to name a few), some as least as powerful as Firelord.

The fight was indeed a bit exaggerated (what fight isn't ?) but not so much as you may think. It was a pretty good fight end of story.

Youre talking as if i made up the rules i didnt. The mods did. Now that really is the end of the story.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre talking as if i made up the rules i didnt. The mods did. Now that really is the end of the story.
Nah, I was talking in general.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thor eventually freed himself from the chokehold due to his superior strength so whats the problem. It was a choke hold not an arm wrestle not a direct pitting of strength so your point is moot. She hulk at a time when she was class 75 has also held Thor in a choke hold for a little while before he managed to free himself, just check out her respect thread. Theres a precedence for weaker characters being able to restrain and match up to far superior characters in Marvel. The instances pointed out arent conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond his stat figures. On top of that you've stated youve stated that level 7 characters like Thor have as much strength as and when they need it to perform mammoth tasks. In Marvel characters who perform such feats dont wield and apply such strength on a daily basis in every situation. They just have an incalulable level of strength which grows to meet their needs. That explains why weaker character can match them for a little while before being overpowered. Regardless you yourself have regularly turned your nose up at combat feats as a measure of strength so its puzzling to see you now using Firelords as an example of him being virtually class 100.

Fair point !!!!!!!! Very Good post B.T.W. sorry sixth wing you're on youre own, ive just been severly Skanked by G.S.

G.S. in response, you are right in a way but .... oooh damm im so ****ing confused now, i dont know where i stand. What you are saying is very true, but i've decided to take a diffrent stance i.e. by avoiding the Bio's all together.

Well played any way !!!!!!!

Originally posted by who?-kid
Nah, I was talking in general.

Something you never made clear in your last post. But thats cool. Regardless those are the rules apparrently.

A couple pics

Another

This would be an AMAZING FIGHT! Why do I have a feeling she would be flirting with him while the fight goes on? I think that Spidey would come out on top of this because he'd wear her down, then tell her he's married. Then she'd back off.

I don't see anything amazing about this fight and the number of people who thinks spiderman has a chance here astound me. She's class 200, he's class 10, that means she's twenty times as strong as he is. This is more lopsided than a 3 year old vs Mike Tyson at his peak. He should be able to do absolutely nothing to hurt her, even if sh'es worn out.

Ok, here's how the fight goes.


Spiderman: "How do I get myself into these delicate situations"

While avoiding one of Spiderman's kicks, she-hulk quickly performs a judo toss, and tosses, which causes Spidey to fly through a pile of bricks.

Spiderman while getting up from the shattered brick wall: So I take it we can't talk this over like two civilized super heroes?"

She-Hulk comes in charging: Who says this I'm not being civilized?

Spiderman while dodging: Good point.

But before fully dodging, she hulk elbows the web head in the ribs, which knocks him twenty feet into the opposite direction.

Spiderman thinking to himself: She has gotten alot stronger since the last time we thought. I can barely keep up with her, even with my Spider sense. Little does my incredibly attractive(not to say that you're not attractive MJ) green friend know, I've improved as well. Time to even the odds.

Quickly, Spiderman leaps into the air, firing massive amounts of webbing at She-hulk. All of which she manages to dodge, easily.

She Hulk while dodging: Forget your glasses at home, webs?

Spiderman quickly lands to the ground, while She-Hulk decides to go on the offensive. But as she tries to land blows on him this time around, Spidey smoothly dodges, while landing his own blows on She hulk.

She hulk ruminates: How did he get faster all of the sudden?

To avoid further punishment, She-hulk quickly jumps 30 feet backward.

All of the sudden, Spiderman's spider sense goes off like crazy, and She hulks performs a thunder clap.

She-hulk notices that Spiderman is nowhere is sight. On one hand, she is glad of her apparent victory, but on the other hand, is upset in that she might have killed him. Before being able to reach an official conclusion, She Hulk finds herself spiked in the back by none other than her opponent, whom she had thought was defeated.

She-hulk, apparently battered from Spiderman's severe spike: How did you avoid that?

Spiderman with a smug look undereath his mask thought to himself: If only she knew that even a smallest strand of webbing gives off a slight vibration, hence giving me the abilty to detect all movements made. Which is exactly why I purposely avoided her with the massive amounts of webbing, and aimed at the ground. It's so easy in that I can detect her muscular movements before she even makes them. Add that to the fact that I have my good old Spider-sense, and I'm practically psychic. Professer Xavier, eat your heart out.

Spiderman fires another load of webbing at She-Hulk: Bonzai!!

And again, she easily dodges the webbing assault. Spiderman lands on the ground, expecting an encore of She-hulk's last performance, but She-hulk skips straight on to her thunder clap. Which again, Spiderman dodges with little effort, later responding with an attack.

She-Hulk(now pissed off), uses a load of thunderclaps against Spidey, but Spiderman manages to dodge at every turn, while responding with attacks of his own.

Spiderman: Give up?

She-Hulk: Never.

The fight continued, but eventually, She-hulk found herself worn out. Despite having rarely taken any blows, Spiderman found himself tired as well. Maybe even more tired than She-hulk.

But before they could finish their battle, The Sinister Syndicate, Ultron, and the Frightful four emerge

Spiderman and She-hulk settle their diffrences, and decide to take them down. Afterwards, the two decide to go have a cup of coffee, and maybe more.

PS:When I had Spiderman "spike" She-hulk, I meant that he fixed his webbing up to where it was like an elastic, while at a distance, and fired himself like a cannonball.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Why is that bad writing ? Is She-Hulk magically glued to the floor ? If Spider-Man hits her real hard (especially when she doesn't see it coming), she'll be flying...

Again of course I am NOT saying Spider-Man will win the fight...

Because as darth said earlier,when spidey fought her once,he punched her in the chin and the only thing he hurt was his fist.She-Hulk just shrugged it off.If that happened before,well he wouldnt be able to knock her across the room then.bad writing or maybe just bad memory on the writers part.Kinda like how their memory is so bad about spideys strength.he can lift a bus over his head yet Kingpin who is just an ordinary human being with no superhuman powers has wiped the floor with spidey before where in real life,spidey would easily beat kingey within two seconds with one effortless punch.

I THINK SHE-HULK "SHOULD" WIN

Now, I know people love to over-estimate Spider-man and say he can beat just about anybody, but the She-Hulk would kick the crap out of him. I like Spider-man just as much as the next guy, but Spider-man has limits just like everyone else.