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Ive heard alot about DN Luke recently and the others as well...so who wins?

Setting is Degobah.

DN Luke was superior to all 3 in force abilities. DN Luke was superior to all 3 in saber abilities. A good thread would be possibly DE Luke vs. the trio, as this one has DN Luke all over it.

Luke uses his instikill emerald lightning to take out Revan, then draws his saber and wipes out Malak and Sidious. Actually, it would be close. Actually idk. What's to stop Luke from just using his lightning on all of them?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke uses his instikill emerald lightning to take out Revan, then draws his saber and wipes out Malak and Sidious. Actually, it would be close. Actually idk. What's to stop Luke from just using his lightning on all of them?

When has the instakill been shown to work on a force user? How does that instakill even work? No bodily sign of injury means it possibly could have shut down the Vong nervous system. Arguing from ignorance will get you laughed at, that's about it.

DN Luke could win if he keeps his distance, engaging a saber battle from three angles wouldn't be a cup of tea.

Assuming the 3 don't need space to swing their sabers...

Originally posted by tdtd
Assuming the 3 don't need space to swing their sabers...

Was it mentioned to be an enclosed area? Outside of Sidious, do either of them use a wide open style? Why would they be limited from various angles. We're not talking about two conflicting styles here.

Originally posted by Illustrious
When has the instakill been shown to work on a force user? How does that instakill even work? No bodily sign of injury means it possibly could have shut down the Vong nervous system. Arguing from ignorance will get you laughed at, that's about it.

DN Luke could win if he keeps his distance, engaging a saber battle from three angles wouldn't be a cup of tea.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, remember? You keep downplaying the instakill I don't know why...

Originally posted by tdtd
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence, remember? You keep downplaying the instakill I don't know why...

How do I downplay it? I said you can't simply apply it to situations in which it would be improbable to apply it to. The green sparks (outside of downing a Vong like a tree) showed NO destructive effects. So you can guarantee that it instakills people, how? As far as you know, it was a technique developed against the Vong.

And absence of proof isn't proof of the affirmative either. You have to have a premise to apply that logic. You see Revan in a short FMV wielding a saber, he seems to favor precision more than acrobatics or range. Malak uses strength and a long saber; the only individual of the trio that uses a lot of space is Sidious, and even then, he wouldn't necessarily have an issue if he has his own corner to attack him from.

Don't ass-u-me.

Hahaha... Awesome. DN LUke is still above all 3.

Someone needs to make a Kun vs. Malak, Revan, and ROTS Sidious thread, wanna see that one.

Except Kun's saber style is conceivably surperior to Luke's, given that he invented his own style and adding he uses a double blade saber, which gives a more offensive attack.

Like we have said, if Luke's instakill works, then so does Kun's, you cannot downplay Kun's attack and boost Luke's.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Except Kun's saber style is conceivably surperior to Luke's, given that he invented his own style and adding he uses a double blade saber, which gives a more offensive attack.

How does Exar making his own style make him better with a saber then Luke? Mace created his own form too, is he better then DN Luke also? Oh, and sense Maul has a double bladed lightsaber he can take Luke. This statement is full of crap.

Originally posted by w00t2112
Like we have said, if Luke's instakill works, then so does Kun's, you cannot downplay Kun's attack and boost Luke's.

This statement makes ZERO sense. Why does Luke's instakill working mean that Exar's has to work also? Just like the paragraph above, this statement is full of crap.

No, but having his unique style and beating other revered Jedi with apparent ease with this style does indicate something.

Unless you're implying that we should naturally hold Luke being greater than Kun as the status quo, and the Kun supporters must provide a stastically significant argument that Kun is superior to Luke, but that does seem to be the ideology you're taking.

Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?



Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.

Luke's instakill hasn't even shown any physical manifestation or any other destructive effects other than downing a Vong, which is far from conclusive regardless of how much you want it to.

Think before you talk.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, but having his unique style and beating other revered Jedi with apparent ease with this style does indicate something.

As does being able to wield a lightsaber as if it were 20 and also being able to fight at a speed that even a Jedi Knight could not see him shows the same thing.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Unless you're implying that we should naturally hold Luke being greater than Kun as the status quo, and the Kun supporters must provide a stastically significant argument that Kun is superior to Luke, but that does seem to be the ideology you're taking.

Notice that I DIDN'T say that Luke was better. You assumed that I automatically consider Luke better with a blade. I just posted reasons that show why his reasons are crap.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?

Luke beat down the best fighters of his era, including Luuke, DE Sidious, Raynar, Lomi Plo, Shimrra, and Welk. Do you think that Luke trained Luuke, Sidious, or Lomi Plo? Furthermore, Luke took down students from the Shadow Academy and he fought against the Reborn guys.

Luke's student, Kyp Durron, killed an Ancient Sith SUPERWEAPON. I'd call that impressive. Oh, and Luke was significantly stronger then him.

Oh, and if Luke had no lightsaber form, how was he able to fight through thousands of Yuuzhan Vong?

Originally posted by Illustrious
Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.

We know that Luke's attack is a physical manifestation of the force, meaning that it can affect people other then Yuuzhan Vong. How do we know this? It's quite simple really. Only Jedi that had some sort of surgery done on them that meshed their body with Yuuzhan Vong originated tissue were able to use Vongsense. Vongsense is when a Jedi is able to use the force on Vong, although none of the Jedi were able to do anything impressive with their Vongsense. Jacen, who was the best with Vongsense, had to focus just to coax a dovin basal to release him. He couldn't rip a Vong's head off with TK or anything like that.

As a physical manifestation of the force it won't matter whether the target is force sensitive or not, it will have an affect on them. BTW, it's not like instakills are the instant criterion for who would win. You make it seem like it is.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Luke's instakill hasn't even shown any physical manifestation or any other destructive effects other than downing a Vong, which is far from conclusive regardless of how much you want it to.

Think before you talk.

Yes it has, as I explained above. In the future, take you own advice.

More irrelevant misdirection. You never quantified how effective each of those "20 blades" would correlate to.

Like I said, unless Jedi Knight have an automatic bullet time (which they don't, as shown when they get surprised by attacks), they would need to force speed in order to keep up with other force speeds. When has Luke shown the ability to move so much faster than a competent lightsaber toting, force-wielding enemy that he didn't see him?

Unless you're arguing that Kun can't see Luke when he's fighting, you have no point.



So you gave your own crappy reasons. Good job.



Luuke was a year old clone. Even if he did manage to retain ALL of his knowledge from the time his hand was severed, he was still only Luke as of ESB + 1 year of training. Whoopdedoo.

When did Luke defeat Sidious in a fair, one on one situation? He fought a dying clone, he had help pushing back Sidious storm, and he also kneeled down and became Sidious' *****. Impressive.

Lomi Plo greatest showings? Stealing a ship, training Welk (who couldn't even kill Saba Sebatyne), and influencing the Gorog Colony. Oh, definitive.



You must have conveniently left out that he fought the Leviathan in a THUNDERSTORM and that his spear happened to act as a nice conductor.

Nice job accounting for context and circumstance. That's what I've been asking you to do the whole time. Give me context and circumstance, you spew out more feats. I know Luke has more feats than Kun already, you didn't need to tell me.



Yes, but that has not shown that the affect will result in an instakill. Why? Because it was never demonstrated to do so. Said effect of this physical manifestation may have been specifically for Vong. He sure never used it against a Jedi.



Don't be daft. You haven't established anything more than what was already known. Yeah, the attack affected a Vong via physical manifestation. But when has those effects been illustrated? Did it sear through a wall? Did it rip through flesh? No? So how do you know the actual effects of this ambiguous emerald sparks?

Wait, you don't. Stop pretending that you do.

It's funny how the Kun fans automatically throw around their "My argument is better than yours, yours makes no sense, Kun is better" Logic around like it actually makes any sense whatsoever.

Logic dictates that having his own style with a unique, double-bladed lightsaber and beating down the best fighters of his era (which contains a martial Jedi Order numbering in the thousands and coming off their victory against the Sith) is superior to a farmboy with no apparent style and beating down on nonforce users and people he trained. So what proof do you have to refute any of that?
^Really? Logic dictates that? Or personal opinion, which is all you're throwing around.
Then there's yet 4 more paragraphs downplaying Luke and making Kun more powerful than he's worth.

Because Kun actually has MORE proof of his instakill working on a force user, because Kun actually DID it to Odan Urr.
^Yes, because the comic shows Kun instantly killing Odan Urr. Oh wait? It doesn't? It's NOT an instakill. Ok gotcha. Stop telling people to think before you talk when you're too biased to listen to anyone else's arguments and opinion, and open up The Sith Wars for god's sake before you call Kun's technique an instakill.

So wait, self-trained farmboy > trained lightsaber form?

Developing a unique style of saber and form is somehow worse than picking up remnant lightsaber forms from other people?

Yes, logic dictates that. Next thing you know, you're going to argue that beating a force user takes no more skill than beating a non-force user.



Oh sorry, Odan took 1 panel to die. By this logic, Traya's "instakill" wasn't instant, because she DRAINED the three Jedi, tossed them around, and they groaned and screamed before they died.

Or better yet, show me where the term "instakill" shows up ANYWHERE in Star Wars literature. Because I don't see it. But right, it's not qualifying for instakill because a Luke supporter said so. You sure aren't bad at parroting.

The 3 Jedi didn't parade crying "I'm too old" after Traya's instakill. They just died. Traya's instakill is more definite and concrete than Kun's blasts which have shown to be everything but an instakill.

So wait, self-trained farmboy > trained lightsaber form?
No, but it doesn't make it the other way around, even if you call Luke's force speed during the fights hyperbole, we see him use it effectively on an army of Vong. Can you safely and logically say Kun can defeat an army of Vong with just the lightsaber?

Developing a unique style of saber and form is somehow worse than picking up remnant lightsaber forms from other people?
Nobody said it was worse, but how does that make Kun superior to Luke.
Is Luke superior to Kun because he created his own force power while Kun used Sadow's knowledge?

He says "I'm too old" just as he dies. Traya threw the Jedi Masters around and drained them as she killed them. That's not instantaneous either. Again, Odan was dead so quickly and rendered so ineffective that it makes little practical difference.

Instakill is never defined in the books, if Odan is immediately rendered ineffective and dies a panel later, that's pretty instant.



The point is moot because you can't safely assume Luke could have done what Kun did. The situation is completely different. Did I ever say what Luke did was not at all impressive in the slightest?

No, I claimed that Luke's feat does not win the fight for him. Exar has the more relevant feat of fighting and beating a revered force user.



If you can establish that Luke's force power is superior to Naga Sadow's, you can assume that. But Naga Sadow seems to have the superior powers.

You're right, Luke's force power isn't superior to Naga Sadow. But what makes you think Kun knew or even did half of what Naga Sadow knew, or did, since Kun isn't on the level of Sadow either. I'm just saying that because Kun created his saber form doesn't make him better than Luke, who learned from a lot of incredible saber duelists. Just like Luke creating his force power doesn't make him more impressive than Kun, who had Sadow's teachings.

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right, Luke's force power isn't superior to Naga Sadow. But what makes you think Kun knew or even did half of what Naga Sadow knew, or did, since Kun isn't on the level of Sadow either. I'm just saying that because Kun created his saber form doesn't make him better than Luke, who learned from a lot of incredible saber duelists. Just like Luke creating his force power doesn't make him more impressive than Kun, who had Sadow's teachings.

The difference is that Kun's own saber style has shown, definitively, the ability to beat powerful force users with ease. Luke struggled with DE Sidious and even with individuals like Luuke.

Yes DE Luke. And you're assuming that 20 years later Luke hasn't perfected his saber technique? Which would be the logical assumption.
If Luke's technique was that piss poor would he be able to take out an army of Vong with relative ease, which I highly doubt even Vodo can do. Unless of course you think Vodo as 1 man>an army of non part of the force Vong, and that's also assuming Vodo knows the techniques to fight an enemy not of the force, which he obviously doesn't because he's never encountered such an enemy.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yes DE Luke. And you're assuming that 20 years later Luke hasn't perfected his saber technique? Which would be the logical assumption.
If Luke's technique was that piss poor would he be able to take out an army of Vong with relative ease, which I highly doubt even Vodo can do. Unless of course you think Vodo as 1 man>an army of non part of the force Vong, and that's also assuming Vodo knows the techniques to fight an enemy not of the force, which he obviously doesn't because he's never encountered such an enemy.

No, I never argued Luke didn't get better. I argued that Luke never dominated a powerful force user to the degree Kun has, and even moreso, someone like Kun himself.

Kun isn't an army of Vong, he's a powerful force user that has more than a few offensive abilities and the ability to resist Luke's attacks. That's a whole different ballgame, and the logic some of the Luke supporters have used is simply not applicable.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, I never argued Luke didn't get better. I argued that Luke never dominated a powerful force user to the degree Kun has, and even moreso, someone like Kun himself.

Kun isn't an army of Vong, he's a powerful force user that has more than a few offensive abilities and the ability to resist Luke's attacks. That's a whole different ballgame, and the logic some of the Luke supporters have used is simply not applicable.

Yes I agree with that. I'm tempted to play feat wars again but it's not too relevant to the fight. And yes Kun has the ability to resist Luke's attacks. But so do the VONG. ..

The Vong has demonstrated no ability to resist the physical manifestations of the force. If you tried dropping a building on the Vong, they couldn't push it back. If you tried dropping one on Kun, he could.

You're right but what makes a force user different from any other being out there? The force. Without it every force user is reduced to being a normal being, a normal human without an advantage. This is why it makes Luke's accomplishment all that much more impressive.. The degree of difficulty is higher than that of Kun's amulet blasts, where all he has to do is get hissy and then he can shoot beams out of his ass

Indeed, they do, but someone, trained to fight Jedi, literally chucked the best of the Jedi of his time, obviously can resist the force better than a Vong, who in many cases killed Jedi, but never faced off a revered Jedi Master other than Luke.

Although its speculation and a pure assumption, its logic to assume that Kun, having fought and defeated Jedi, as well as being originally one, can resist techniques of the force from Luke, better than the Vong.

Ok, so Luke can kill an army of vong, unless you prove that draining an entire race is less impressive than that, the point is irrelevant.

We never knew how much Kun learned, we only know that he could not have applied all of his knowledge, being undefeated and unchallenged by any single individual, until every single Jedi Knight to Jedi Master cornered him and forced him to trap himself. However its very logical, that Kun having already crushed his opponents with the knowledge he had already used, that he had not demonstrated an even greater power.

From what i've read/heard, Luke is always challenged, he isn't leagues and leagues above his enemies, any of them provided they unite can take Luke down, Luke had trouble with alot of his enemies, therefore forcing him to use his best techniques as well as inventing some.

By all i have said, i mean that Kun, is much more of an unknown of his knowledge and perhaps to a certian extent his power, as well as showing that Luke needed to gain and invent newer force powers due to a constant threats, that if he slipped, he would be crushed.

In response to your post earlier, tdtd, its safe to assume that Kun learned much more of Sadow's knowledge that is displayed in the comics, and obviously what Sadow knows can create an army of illusions and an ability to chuck stars around. If Kun had learnt any of this (safe to assume he did) he would be leagues above any incarnation of Luke, yet we dont know this, so we cannot say it, however we cannot go and say, that Kun learnt little to nothing of Sadow's teachings.

Originally posted by tdtd
You're right but what makes a force user different from any other being out there? The force. Without it every force user is reduced to being a normal being, a normal human without an advantage. This is why it makes Luke's accomplishment all that much more impressive.. The degree of difficulty is higher than that of Kun's amulet blasts, where all he has to do is get hissy and then he can shoot beams out of his ass

Yes, but we're not here to score degree of difficulty. If that was the case, we can never arrive at an answer, because we do not know degree of difficulty. The end result is that Kun's beams were more destructive on a larger scale than Luke's emerald lightning.

That's assuming again, that Kun's beams would be able to go through the Vong, who were not of the force. But I won't repeat that since it's in the other thread.
W00t I agree, if Kun did learn ALL from Sadow, then I would put him above any incarnation of the Lukes we have so far. But you have to take into account that he died before he could learn all that Sadow knew, and that it's not logical to say that he had ALL of Sadow's teachings. We don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he had.

Originally posted by tdtd
That's assuming again, that Kun's beams would be able to go through the Vong, who were not of the force. But I won't repeat that since it's in the other thread.
W00t I agree, if Kun did learn ALL from Sadow, then I would put him above any incarnation of the Lukes we have so far. But you have to take into account that he died before he could learn all that Sadow knew, and that it's not logical to say that he had ALL of Sadow's teachings. We don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he had.


What he learnt and how much we dont know, we can only speculate and i agree with your last sentence, he may have learnt all of Sadow's teachings or he may not, remember that Kun was a prodigy, so its a 50/50 he learnt most of it to little of it.

Right Kun was a prodigy, so was Luke. However with Kun's quick demise, we do not know how much of his potential he reached. As you said days ago he could have reached his full potential, or he could have reached a tiny fraction. But we have to take into the fact that Kun did die so we can't say how much more powerful he was to become.

Agreed.

Great way to end the thread.