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Who wins?

I'll go with the DE team.

DE team for sure.. DE Sidious alone is equal to Revan or maybe even better. DE Luke is greater than Malak.

DE team by a hefty margin.

If the DE team wins at all, it'll be by a hair. In a prolonged duel, Luke's going down against Malak, so unless Palpatine can whip out a Force storm before he's set upon by Revan, we're going to have another crispy Skywalker. In fact, I see Revan and Malak taking this.

The two have been on countless fronts together, during the Mandalorian Wars and their skirmishes with the Republic. They'll have far more collusion than Luke and Sidious, and that should give them the edge they need here. Hell, even if the renegades were strangers, they'd lose simply because Malak would slaughter Luke before Sidious could manage to take out Revan - if he even can, in a duel.

Revan and Malak easily

What makes you think Malak could take down DE Luke? Both of them have been shown fighting each other at insane speeds. Neither Malak nor Revan could contend with them in a saber duel..

Well I was reading about this Force Storm, and while it hurts the victim, it also seperates them from their force abilities, so if Sids pulls one of those out...Revam and Malak dont stand a chance.

Originally posted by tdtd
What makes you think Malak could take down DE Luke? Both of them have been shown fighting each other at insane speeds. Neither Malak nor Revan could contend with them in a saber duel..

? What does saber speeds have to do with anything. In E3 Sidious uses the Ataru style of fighting relying on high speeds and acrobatics to defeat an opponent. Meanwhile Windu uses Vaapad, a lightsaber style that relies more on precision and a firm foundation to defeat its enemies. Although Sidious was doing some fancy leaps and moving at faster speeds, Mace fought with precision and was able to finally bring Sids down. Same deal with Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well I was reading about this Force Storm, and while it hurts the victim, it also seperates them from their force abilities, so if Sids pulls one of those out...Revam and Malak dont stand a chance.

BS posts ahoy

You still haven't proved why Malak and Revan would be superior to the DE duo, especially since Sidious and Revan are likely on par, and Luke more powerful than Malak.

Originally posted by zephiel7
BS posts ahoy

really? what's BS about it?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
really? what's BS about it?

Nothing as far as I know.


The DE team takes this. Not by a ton, but they take a solid victory. DE Sidious is a large amount stronger then Revan, and DE Luke could give Malak a very hard time, perhaps even defeat him. In anycase, Sidious will defeat Revan before either Malak or Luke can kill the other. DE Sidious and Luke then proceed to pwn Malak.

so DE Sidious could kill DE Luke?

Yeah he could.

Or DE Sidious can use his nifty force storm.

DE Sidious and DE Luke win, though it will a very difficult battle that I wish Lucas will make a movie out of

Originally posted by tdtd
You still haven't proved why Malak and Revan would be superior to the DE duo, especially since Sidious and Revan are likely on par, and Luke more powerful than Malak.

And you haven't proved that the DE duo is better than the KotOR duo.

See, the problem here? You can't adopt one opinion and then ask for resounding conclusive evidence for the contrary. In events like these, all you need is reasonable doubt.

If the DE team wins, it won't be as a team anymore. Skywalker will die to either member of the KOTOR team.

That's a bold statement, IKC. Anything to back it up?

The DE team win. Sidious gets to eat the entire Macdonalds supply of hamburgers, ergo he will win...

DE Luke isn't anything special, Glentract. It's only a couple of years post-ROTJ. He's not had time to develop much in the way of lightsaber ability or force power, nor has he shown that he has developed much. His lightsaber victory over Sidious seems more to me like Sidious' incompetance than Luke's skill.

I really don't see how the DE team will win.

Sidious lost in a lightsaber duel against Luke but Luke also cut of his arm once before he was dying. Neither one of them seem good with a lightsaber. Malak however was good with a lightsaber he was a lightsaber prodigy that has fought in two wars on the front line, both of which were against powerful enemy's, Mandelorians or Jedi. And those people were good fighters. He lead thousands of Sith after that, defeated the greatest Jedi fighter of that era in a fight, and we don't know how the fight happened we still know Malak > Kavar because of other things.

Revan is that + more and i'm to tired to describe it all right now, but he's a lot better with a lightsaber so he would stand up against DE Sidious possibly take him but if he doesn't then he will soon get Malak his help and Sidious will die.

Wow. The DE duo wins. Revan and Malak are both on the plane of the PT Jedi. They are very powerful, but nothing epic or ridiculous. I imagined Revan to be about Yoda's equal, and Malak to be about on par with Windu. DE Sidious is pretty far above them and Luke is too. Sidious could take Revan and Luke could take Malak.

Revan was above Yoda.. And Fishy I agree with your post but you still have to take into account the hyperbole of them both moving faster than the naked eye, a bright light and a dark light. Now assuming their faster than the naked eye blows are ineffective, Revan and Malak were never shown to move that fast nor could compete with that.

Originally posted by tdtd
Revan was above Yoda.. And Fishy I agree with your post but you still have to take into account the hyperbole of them both moving faster than the naked eye, a bright light and a dark light. Now assuming their faster than the naked eye blows are ineffective, Revan and Malak were never shown to move that fast nor could compete with that.

How do you know that? Every Jedi should have learned to augment their speed with the force, or at least a lot of them would have. Seeing as Malak and Revan were both greater then that its safe to say they knew how to do it too, just like Dooku would have, Mace would have, Exar Kun would have Ulic would have, Yoda would have... Well you know pretty much everybody with training in the force.

Whether they know it or not is irrelevant. My point is only in DE do we see such use of speed in a LIGHTSABER battle. Does that mean Revan, Malak and all the others don't know how to augment their speed during a fight? Not necessarily. But we know for sure Sidious and Luke do.

Speed does not necessarily mean strength in a lightsaber duel.

There are plenty of duelists who are superior but rely on a firm foundation and precise movements over extra speed. Vodo and Exar Kun after all were not described as moving at superhuman speeds. Neither were Sadow or Kressh in their duel.

Right but it's simple physics. How can you fight someone that moves faster than the naked eye?

Simple physics would say "the force" (not newtonian) does not exist. Lightsaber's would be theoretically impossible to make.

Originally posted by tdtd
Whether they know it or not is irrelevant. My point is only in DE do we see such use of speed in a LIGHTSABER battle. Does that mean Revan, Malak and all the others don't know how to augment their speed during a fight? Not necessarily. But we know for sure Sidious and Luke do.

Actually its very relevant because it destroys your entire argument, seeing as its a common technique its very safe to assume that either it gave no real advantage in a fight or everyody else knew it and could use it to. So either almost every Jedi and Sith knew it, whihc would be logical or it just wouldn't give those that did know it a real advantage.

Why would it be logical that every jedi knew it? There's a difference in the degree of difficulty between using force speed and being able to use force speed in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by tdtd
Why would it be logical that every jedi knew it? There's a difference in the degree of difficulty between using force speed and being able to use force speed in a lightsaber duel.

Any mediocre force user would know how to use force speed. Obi Wan and Qui gon used it in Phantom mencace. The degree to which they rely on speed in fight is no indication on how good of a duelist they are.

Precognition for example allows Revan to see what moves "superfast" DE Luke would use. Afterwards its just counter it, throw him of balance and finall kill him.

Again, being able to use force speed in a duel takes a lot more difficulty and control of the force. Is Revan' precognition fast enough to see what moves Luke is going to pull if he's at super speed? And if so, does Revan have the control and agility to use that same force speed in a duel?

Originally posted by tdtd
Why would it be logical that every jedi knew it? There's a difference in the degree of difficulty between using force speed and being able to use force speed in a lightsaber duel.

How do you know that? It just increases your speed it wouldn't require a lot of focus, otherwise Luke nad Palpatine wouldn't have used it. I mean they mave have both improved a lot in the time since ROTJ and or ROTS. However I wouldn't believe that Luke at that time had a greater control over the force or his lightsaber then people who had been fighting for a lot longer against a hell of a lot more force users.

Fishy, then explain to me the purpose of force speed during a lightsaber duel?

Hmm... Revan could beat Sidious but Luke could probably beat Malak. The question is, which battle gets over first? If Luke kills Malak first he and Sidious together could probably take Revan. If Revan kills Sidious first Luke is ****ed.

Originally posted by tdtd
Fishy, then explain to me the purpose of force speed during a lightsaber duel?

When your lightsaber wielding friend isn't a force user it has a huge advantage, or perhaps when he or she doesn't know the technique.

Which would lead me to believe that pretty much everybody knew the technique because otherwise the one that can become the fastest would own everybody and it would be the only technique people would learn. Or perhaps it just doesn't make a difference and Luke and Sids both tried to become faster then the other to give them an advantage in the fight, but of course that didn't work.

But I can say that if you try and use force speed in a lightsaber fight without knowing how to control it or having balance and agility, you would hack yourself into pieces.

Originally posted by tdtd
Fishy, then explain to me the purpose of force speed during a lightsaber duel?

Force speed is useful in a duel, but to say speed is the be all and end all in a lightsaber duel is uneducated.

Sidious and Luke were described as moving faster than the eye can see. But relative to whom? Leia? Non force users?

Revan and Malak could have been dancing across the Star Forge in DBZ speeds for all we know. If Ragnos were watching them, he would probably see a bunch of unfit SOBS.

They were described by Leia, a force user and a credible source. Your point?

My point is that Leia is no where near as good in lightsaber dueling as even those of the PT. How can her account of speed count for anything. She may of said the same thing about Yoda, who is described as being a fast duelist.

What does her skill in lightsaber dueling have to do with her discription of the fight. If anything her description puts the DE Duo on a higher pedestal seeing as how force users are a lot quicker than non force users mentally and with the eyes since the force guides them, and she couldn't even see the two.

Originally posted by tdtd
But I can say that if you try and use force speed in a lightsaber fight without knowing how to control it or having balance and agility, you would hack yourself into pieces.

Possibly but how would that matter in this fight seeing as either everybody knew it, or it wouldn't make a difference anyways.

Agreed Glentract. And fishy again, there's a difference between everybody knowing it and everybody having the ability, agility, and control to use it effectively.

Originally posted by tdtd
What does her skill in lightsaber dueling have to do with her discription of the fight. If anything her description puts the DE Duo on a higher pedestal seeing as how force users are a lot quicker than non force users mentally and with the eyes since the force guides them, and she couldn't even see the two.

Because Leia did not see enough lightsaber fights to judge what is fast and what is not.

What are you talking about? Since when does she have to see enough lightsaber fights to judge something that is faster than her force guided eyes can see?

Look at it this way.

If all you ever saw were two fist fighters duking it out, you would describe them as having incredible reflexes, assuming that you hardly ever got to test your skills in fist fighting.

Watch something like the UFC afterwards and those two fist fighters originally would not look so great.

Leia does not have enough experience or training to judge what is fast or what is not.

Youre right, there's a difference between describing someone as having incredible reflexes, and someone moving faster than the naked eye, especially a force trained one.. BIG difference

Originally posted by tdtd
Agreed Glentract. And fishy again, there's a difference between everybody knowing it and everybody having the ability, agility, and control to use it effectively.

Okay let me try to say this again.

It was a known technique for thousands of years.
It was a basic technique practiced by a Padawan in TPM.

That would mean the technique isn't hard to learn right?

So we know the technique can't be that hard to learn

Now if a technique that isn't hard to learn gives you a huge advantage in a duel, wouldn't you say that graet duellist would have mastered the technique as well? And revan and Malak were both great duellist.

If they wouldn't have mastered it, then perhaps you would have to realise that it wouldn't give you a great advantage at all, because otherwise somebody else who would have mastered it would have pwned their asses long ago.

And seeing as its an easy technique to learn somebody must have mastered it.

See the point?

Yea I understand what you're saying but it can go both ways. You can say that they must not have found it effective enough to use and I can say that it was only mastered by a select few.

How do we know that the technique of enhancing the speed of your arm and legs had existed for thousands of years?

Well augmenting your attributes such as strength and speed with the force has always been apparant.

Originally posted by tdtd
Yea I understand what you're saying but it can go both ways. You can say that they must not have found it effective enough to use and I can say that it was only mastered by a select few.

Yes you could say that, but the technique was easy to learn, so if it really would have given a huge advantage everybody would have learned it.



Kotor, you can learn the technique there.

Originally posted by tdtd
Youre right, there's a difference between describing someone as having incredible reflexes, and someone moving faster than the naked eye, especially a force trained one.. BIG difference

And how many lightsaber duels has she seen anyways? How much training in the force did she have? The opinion of a barely trained duelist who is going on "first few experiences" to judge speed is not enough for me to put DE Luke or Sids on any pedestal of lightsaber skill.

Again Zephiel, when something is quicker than the naked eye, it is quicker than the naked eye regardless of how many lightsaber fights she's seen

Originally posted by tdtd
Again Zephiel, when something is quicker than the naked eye, it is quicker than the naked eye regardless of how many lightsaber fights she's seen

Not really... A hundred years ago they described cars going with a mile a minut as so fast it was hard to see them move... 60 miles now isn't even special anymore. I mean every car does it, and ussually when your driving you are bored because you feel like your going slow.

Originally posted by tdtd
Again Zephiel, when something is quicker than the naked eye, it is quicker than the naked eye regardless of how many lightsaber fights she's seen

He means that because of the fact that she had hardly seen anybody close to the speed of Yoda move in a duel, while she may be in awe of Luke's speed would probably not be so impressed if she had seen somebody a lot faster as a comparison.

Originally posted by Fishy
Not really... A hundred years ago they described cars going with a mile a minut as so fast it was hard to see them move... 60 miles now isn't even special anymore. I mean every car does it, and ussually when your driving you are bored because you feel like your going slow.

That's good and all fishy but it doesn't apply here. Leia was a force user who's reactions were much much quicker than anybody else, and she couldn't even see it.

I dislike the way Luke's saber abilities are seen here because of his 30 seconds of losing-control-in-complete-anger-baseball-bat-swinging-action in ROTJ. You must be joking.

In ESB Vader rates Luke's skill as "impressive". In SotE you can see Luke kicking masses of bountyhunters and Black Sun guards - when the Black Sun guards were "worthy opponents" for Maul according to Shadowhunter. So even in ROTJ times Luke wasn't exactly a pushover in terms of lightsaber handling.

In DE he defeated Sidious in a lightsaber duel. You can tell me what you want but DE Sidious would be superior to his ROTS or ROTJ self (younger body, better force mastery) and as it seems only the two best duellist out of 10,000 Jedi (Mace Windu and Yoda) could defeat ROTS Sidious (+ Dooku) in terms of lightsaber duells his lightsaber skill isn't shabby exactly. At least he's vastly superior to Maul who was good enough to kill two Jedi Masters with several decades of lightsaber training.

Just talking about lightsaber combat I guess Revan and Malak would be superior to DE Luke and DE Sidious because they are both prodigies and have tons of battle experience. Although that advantage isn't really huge since Luke had some years of battle experience too and Sidious - as I said - wasn't a pushover exactly.

But this isn't just about lightsaber skills but also force powers. Luke in DE was able to block fire from an AT-AT with his bare hands as well as force lightning from DE Sidious. Sidious with his force storms is almost unbeatable if he decides to drop one of them on Revan or Malak - he has shown that he could "beam" Luke from Coruscant to Byss with that ability so if he likes to throw Malak and Revan into outer space they'll have a little problem there.
Then both of the DE team were able to move faster than the naked eye could see while fighting. I know that "force speed" is some basic ability but we've never seen somebody moving that fast while fighting (except Mace in the CW cartoons). And I guess if Dooku has problems blocking Anakin swings (ROTS novel) Malak (or Revan) might have problems blocking the same swings by Luke with higher speed - not even talking about Sidious pulling a Sidious here (surprise attack or taking the high ground as seen in ROTS).

So even when I have to admit that Luke is the weak link here when it comes down to saber vs saber combat - DE Sidious with his force storm might be able to wipe out Revan and Malak on his own IF he can use it. Otherwise he and Luke get overpowered by superior duelling skills in the end.

And I seriously doubt that he could conjure up a force storm without getting hacked at by either Revan or Malak... I mean it would take time to do so, and that leaves him open...

I've heard that it only takes Sidious a few seconds to make one. If so, Luke could keep them occupied at least that long.

Yeah. Sidious has shown superior force powers when compared to Revan and Malak combined. Luke also has some very impressive feats due to his mastery of the force.

And as for the whole debate on Sidious and Luke being fast and Leia not being a credible source... let me tell you this: They wouldn't have put it in the book if they didn't mean it.

That is also true but as some guys said, there is no proof that it would be uber effective against some of the big guns. But logic points more towards what you just said.

Yeah, to win a saber fight you need skill. That matters first and foremost. But if you can snap someones arms in a saberlock with pure strength or move at unfathomable speeds and with high agility, it is bound to help, and in some cases, it helps a hell of a lot.

I'm good at that. Saying what everybody already knows but putting it into words that you wouldn't think to say, so instead of saying "well no shit" you say "I agree."

Well no ****.

Is Force Storm basically an instikill attack? Or can you survive getting attacked by a Force Storm?

Luke did.

It wasn't directed at him. . .

So it is an instikill?

I don't know if you want to call it that. It's basically a storm that swallows you up and rips you into pieces. Think getting inside a tornado.

Except it's possible to survive the inside of a tornado.

Oh really? Except for the fact that you get torn apart?

I thought a force storm was a storm of lightning. If so then it can be blocked, it just takes more defensive skills then blocking simple lightning.

No a force storm is far greater then a storm of lightning... It can destroy entire fleets.. Thats not something a simple lightning attack can do. Its on a whole other level.

I know that it is way more powerful but does it basically consist of a storm of lightning, just like it is in KOTOR. I'm sure Sidous' is much more powerful.

Originally posted by tdtd
Oh really? Except for the fact that you get torn apart?
I guess you havn't seen Twister. No, you can survive a tornado. Look it up on the net, people have survived.

YEA!!! just tie a belt to your arm and a pipe, and even though its picking up cars and shit, you'll be completely fine....God guys, dont you know anything?

Originally posted by zod360
I know that it is way more powerful but does it basically consist of a storm of lightning, just like it is in KOTOR. I'm sure Sidous' is much more powerful.

It's not ordinary Sith lightning at all. Force lightning electrocutes, and a storm destroys and disintegrates. And I've never seen someone focus lightning to the point that they can warp the space-time continuum and teleport people across the galaxy.



Wow. . .

LOL

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
YEA!!! just tie a belt to your arm and a pipe, and even though its picking up cars and shit, you'll be completely fine....God guys, dont you know anything?
You can survive, god, if you are at the very center (the eye) of the tornado you can survive.

lol

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
YEA!!! just tie a belt to your arm and a pipe, and even though its picking up cars and shit, you'll be completely fine....God guys, dont you know anything?

That seen was dumb, but it is actually very possible to survive inside a tornado.

Exactly.