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Who wins?

*wait's for IKC to come and defend Kun*

*waits for tdtd to argue with IKC*

How many times do you want me to state that Kun can take him alone?

Kun and Ulic take it, barely.

Given the fact that Luke was able to best Lomi Plo (who had potential-backup from a Nest of Killiks, could make herself invisible and defeated Mara Jade / Jacen in a lightsaber fight before) with a little flick of his wrist and knock Raynar (potential backup from 375 planets filled with Killiks / Joined people including force users) conciousless he might be able to knock Ulic off with a force attack and then battle Exar defeating him finally.

If both Ulic and Exar manage to enter melee combat with him he's most likely a dead man.

If there is perfect team work the duo might take this, if not Luke wins.

Given the fact that you've never quantified the benefit from merging with Killiks, this means jack shit and is nothing but meaningless feat wars.

Kun takes it alone.

IKC, somebody besides me is going to ask you to prove Kun can use his amulet so be ready for your display. Ulic gets curbstomped quickly and Kun and Luke have an epic battle with Luke coming out the victor more times than not.

I've already done it and "somebody besides me" have signed off on it. One's refusal to address my points or even show that they read them is not indication of an invalid argument on my part.



Is this before or after Kun takes it alone?

Nope, that's when Kun stands over the dead body of Ulic before he even knows what happens.. And your inability to address the points you supposedly addressed weeks ago for Kun, before you stopped posting, is evident here.

Or I just stopped because it was apparent that some people cannot be reasoned with.

Right, that includes yourself. It was quite obvious that great points were being brought up and in the end the favor was going to Luke, you couldn't take that nor deal with it nor admit it so you pulled a lightsnake and left.

Six-year-old, schoolyard comeback?



Quite obvious to whom? You?

So far as I can tell, Janus, Illustrious, and Faunus disagreed.



So where's your evidence or reasoning for this?

What's that? It's a hasty generalization and logical fallacy?

It's also begging the question, another logical fallacy?

Good job.



And that's why I'm still here, hm?

Factual error. Self-ownage.

Well everyone has their opinions and you've got to respect him for believing in them.

Originally posted by IKC
Six-year-old, schoolyard comeback?



Quite obvious to whom? You?

So far as I can tell, Janus, Illustrious, and Faunus disagreed.



So where's your evidence or reasoning for this?

What's that? It's a hasty generalization and logical fallacy?

It's also begging the question, another logical fallacy?

Good job.



And that's why I'm still here, hm?

Factual error. Self-ownage.

English lesson..

That includes yourself=factual statement with evidence.
Show me where Janus, Faunus, and Illustrious disagreed, because unlike you I Am reading that thread while you're hesitant to bring it back. What's that? Oh everything you're bringing up is irrelevant to reality? Way to live in a dream world Neo, youre right, self ownage..

Originally posted by Faunus
Stow it already with the ''zOMg! ur a fanboy1'' IKC, unlike any of you, as actually provided proof for his stance. And so far, I haven't seen anyone successfully beat them down. So until you can do so, stfu.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You're missing the point. I picked a side in this debate, and I made my points.

I argued that because Kun created his own style and beat down the best of an order of thousands (Not hundreds like Luke's order) of force users with apparent ease is more impressive than Luke's lightsaber feats and unknown form. It's up to the Luke supporters to counter this point.

I don't have to counter my own points or it would be redundant.

Originally posted by Wesker
And I don't get all angry when people make Luke uber, although I have good reason to be skeptical. You've been deliberately antagonistic towards IKC and myself for us holding views and supporting them, while you've provided next to nothing yourself. Glentract's also notorious for being Luke-biased, and his arguments are always sketchy and easily unraveled. So the problem I have isn't with the conclusion; it's how it's reached and how I'm getting it. I'm not in this to glorify Kun. You may not believe that, but it's true. I'm trying to make sure everyone stays on the same damn page though, because IKC has provided his proof, I've gone over it, and Illustrious has. It may not be 100% in Kun's favor against Luke. Hell, it might not even be 75%. New evidence might pop up that would make Luke pwn every sith lord known. But for now, with what we have, I've made my decision. And I've supported it, along with others.

Another post from somebody else from weeks ago, good job IKC!

Originally posted by tdtd
Show me where Janus, Faunus, and Illustrious disagreed

Short-term memory is your friend.

Ahhh so instead of actually showing it to me you dodge the question and use an insult. What a debater! If short memory is my friend then denial is yours as you've shown time and time again.

Get your eyes checked. See two posts above.

Originally posted by tdtd
Another post from somebody else from weeks ago, good job IKC!

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/8594/stfurobin5hl.jpg

Originally posted by IKC
Get your eyes checked. See two posts above.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t379985.html

Here you go master debater.

And this shows us... what? Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy? You can't even keep your threads straight.

You claimed you never stated something, I claim you did, so I provided my claim with proof, making it an accurate statement.. Try again

No, jackass. You asked me to provide quotes for Janus', Illustrious', and Faunus' support. I did.

Keep your threads straight or pass what you're smoking.

Wait wait, so you're going to selectively pick quotes they've made to better your case? LOL! Why don't you include the quotes that came AFTER.. What's that? No point in posting them because they hurt your case? Awwwww

Originally posted by tdtd
Wait wait, so you're going to selectively pick quotes they've made to better your case? LOL! Why don't you include the quotes that came AFTER.. What's that? No point in posting them because they hurt your case? Awwwww

You could always post them, you know.

You don't, because they don't exist.

Originally posted by IKC
Given the fact that you've never quantified the benefit from merging with Killiks, this means jack shit and is nothing but meaningless feat wars.

Given the fact that Kun's power can't be quantified, his knowledge can't be quantified and his lightsaber abilities can't be quantified in a way to make them compareable to Luke's everything you have is based on your personal opinion - in the same way my statement is.

And mind melting with 375 planets filled with Killik and Joiners (including trained force users) just to basically control them all individualy is quite greater than everything Kun has done so far...even if you want to stay with your opinion that he controlled everybody in the Senate. There you go...



"DN Luke takes them both". Nice debate that was.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And mind melting with 375 planets filled with Killik and Joiners (including trained force users) just to basically control them all individualy is quite greater than everything Kun has done so far...even if you want to stay with your opinion that he controlled everybody in the Senate. There you go...

Nice job with the meaningless, unquantifiable feat wars once again. Dance on my strings some more, will you?

You've done nothing but state your personal biased opinion and call it a logical argument.. Why don't you stop lying to yourself and admit it so we can move on from this pointless debate.

Originally posted by tdtd
You've done nothing but state your personal biased opinion and call it a logical argument.. Why don't you stop lying to yourself and admit it so we can move on from this pointless debate.

Again, people whose opinions matter more to me believe the polar opposite of the garbage you're spewing.

And nobody's keeping you here, troll.

Originally posted by IKC
Again, people whose opinions matter more to me believe the polar opposite of the garbage you're spewing.

And nobody's keeping you here, troll.

You mean anyone who agrees with you correct fanboy?

I mean the better debaters of this forum. I've named them already.

Which includes Illustrious but not NAI right? Why is that, because he doesn't share your opinion? Your idea of better debaters are anyone who agrees with you. The only difference between you and the other fans of Kun are that they can look at both sides and support other characters while you make a clear choice for Kun and a clear choice against Luke no matter what. Nice debating, it's called being hard headed.

Mostly because Nai has shown an unwillingness to address points, whereas Janus, Illustrious, and Faunus don't have the same fault and are generally more objective in their approach.

But whatever makes you sleep better.

You mean helps me sleep better not makes. And the people youve just listed can argue for both characters in any debate, while you have shown the ability to somewhat argue for Kun and Kun alone.

That's why I've been able to argue for people such as Serra Keto, Boba Fett, and Thrawn, just off the top of my head... right?

Please, keep trolling. Not only are you're ineffectual, but you're hilarious. "If that's the effect you wanted, join the circus."

You apparently missed my point as it went over your head. You lack the ability to argue against your character, while others HAVE that ability. I'm glad you think I'm hilarious, you've been a real treat ever since last night with your spectacular display.

Last I checked, unless I'm KJA, he isn't my character. And I'm not KJA.

This is why I've been able to say that Ragnos would beat him, for instance, right?

Nice job.



I'm glad you enjoyed yourself so much, I couldn't have done it without you.

And I without you, I've never seen someone refer to the dictionary so much. Btw since you don't understand simple English let's try a math equation..

Up in the air=/It can go either way...

Hopefully you can understand that, if not I feel sorry for you.

I'm sorry that you don't understand what a common phrase means, then.

Up in the air does, in fact, mean it could go either way. In other words, one cannot say for certain what the outcome will be.

I've never seen someone so proficient at self-ownage.

^enough said about self ownage..

up in the air= I don't know, anything can happen

either way=either way...

impressive comprehension skills

Let me know when you start taking freshman English.. They teach this kind of stuff.

Originally posted by IKC
Nice job with the meaningless, unquantifiable feat wars once again. Dance on my strings some more, will you?

Nice job using double-standarts again. If Exar Kun "controlls" a million senators he must be godlike. If Raynar controlls billions of Killiks and dozens of joined people including force user like Leia, Jaina, Ben Skywalker and Lowbacca it's an "meaningless, unquantifiable feat".

Great show, IKC.

no point in laughing at this one anymore, hope Rex isn't here today.

Except he doesn't control them nor is he shown to control them all at once. He's called the Joiner King, is he not?

Quantify and show us that their combined strength stacks linearly, exponentially, logarithmically, or any other such mathematical premise.

Kun freezing those senators was a nice trick but the sort of thing that someone like Aleema would be able to do. It doesn't make him godlike.

Exar Kun would give him hell alone. Adding Ulic gives this match to the bad guys.

I 'd like to see DN Luke vs. Kun.. Time for Lucas to go into production again. Ulic would get smashed before he realizes what happens.

Lucas would never make an EU character stronger than poster boy Skywalker.

Lucas would make Exar "Who" decimated by ANH Luke.

Dunno about that.. I do however believe the two sexiest star wars characters have to be good old Mark Skywalker Hamil and Exar Kun with his ponytail and dashing James Bond persona

Originally posted by IKC
Except he doesn't control them nor is he shown to control them all at once. He's called the Joiner King, is he not?

He does basically control them - not all of them at once. He's still using his force powers to manipulate / control trained Jedi with ease.



Again. How often do I have to tell the same stuff about the same point again. It doesn't matter if Raynar's power can be measured in any mathematical unit or can expressed in mathematical terms.

DE Sidious used just a part of the potential of one single planet and that boosted his powers up enough to turn him from a guy who's greatest force power was force lightning able to throw people around, into a person who can conjure up force storms able to destroy entire fleets.

Now...Raynar had access to multiple times the power DE Sidious used so it's save to say that his boost of power was at least on par with that of DE Sidious although logic dictates that even if the amount of power can be quantified exactly he most likely received a greater boost than Sidious since Sidious used a weaker source for his additional power.

And just to give you something else. Sekot (the living force energy of Zonama Sekot - meaning the combined power of all beings on that planet) did manage to knock off an entire NJO team (including Luke, Jacen, Mara Jade and several other Jedi) with a single force attack and it defeated the entire YV invasion force after fending them off for two years. As it seems the "combined potential of all living things on a planet" isn't exactly "weak" even if the exact amount of power can't be quantified.

Exar and Ulic get WTFpwned by DN Luke,so far HE is the most powerful force user in the galaxy.That includes him being more powerful than Kun and Ulic.

Nai makes a good point.. Fox5 you can't just make ridiculous statements without backing them up. And no Luke isn't the most powerful in the galaxy. So far, that title goes to Marka Ragnos.

Now Nai you can sit here and say I leach off of other arguments but it's not like I can find something that hasn't already been mentioned, that's crucual to the argument. I still maintain my previous argument that we can't prove Kun is able to use his amulet on a competent force user. If someone says "But Kun's blasts destroys everything in its path like buildings, etc..." I'll say so does an AT-AT blast which was stopped by Luke. We also have no idea if Luke can use his instakill on a competent force user like Kun.. Now in a saber fight between the two, people agree and disgaree on the different hyperboles involving their saber skill. If we say that Luke fighting at the speed of 20 sabers is an inadmissable hyperbole, so is the one about Kun being the most formidable student Vodo has ever had..

Alot of Luke's presumed power comes from manipulating black holes, which to some translates to UBER force telekenisis.

I'm not really sure about Luke being God. Not yet, anyways. Heck, IMO a few Ancients could beat him down after a tough fight.

Yea I would put down Sadow and Ragnos above Luke. Maybe even Ludo. In terms of force abilities only Sadow exceeds Luke's abilities and feats, and maybe even Ragnos.. But refer to my previous post for an argument, this is just opinion.

Originally posted by tdtd
Now in a saber fight between the two, people agree and disgaree on the different hyperboles involving their saber skill. If we say that Luke fighting at the speed of 20 sabers is an inadmissable hyperbole, so is the one about Kun being the most formidable student Vodo has ever had..


I think Vodo should know who was his best student so far and it was him who told Kun that. I don't see the hyperbole here. On the other handside we've never seen somebody wielding 20 lightsabers at once so I wonder how Jaina would know how that looks like.

Originally posted by Fox5
Exar and Ulic get WTFpwned by DN Luke,so far HE is the most powerful force user in the galaxy.That includes him being more powerful than Kun and Ulic.

No Kun wouldn't get wtfpwned, he will lose but he wont get pwned.

Here is a list of People who could take down or tie Luke :

1) Marka Ragnos (easily wins )
2) Lord Simus (unknown win)
3) Ajunta / Tulak ( mabye )
4) Naga Sadow ( Moderately diffcult win )
5) Ludo Kressh ( Diffcult win )
6) Exar Kun ( A tie to a close lose )
7) Freedon Nadd ( Unknown win )

Stop calling them "trained Jedi." It's more accurate to call them NJO Jedi, and I question the pedastal they've been placed on.



Actually, trying to express it in mathematical terms seems to consistently be your only option given you tout the "zomg 375 planets!?!!!!!" figure ad nauseum.



His greatest Force power was Force Lightning?

This isn't Star Wars According to Nai. Pre-DE Sidious was able to do plenty of other things besides lightning (like, say, transferring spirits from one body to another).

Quantify for us exactly how much he improved, then. You have him pre-DE where he's essentially a match for Yoda. Then you have him during DE when two relatively-untrained Force users' and a fetus' combined potential was enough to send his Force storm on him.

Hm. Doesn't seem like that planet was as impressive as you make it out to be if all it took was the combined potential (not ability. It took all of their potential) of 2.5 people to overpower him.



No, logic dictates nothing of the sort. If anything, points can be made for Sidious being far more powerful than Raynar given that Raynar was beaten by but one Skywalker, whereas Sidious had to be overpowered by almost three. That and there's the inconvenient fact that Sidious' knowledge of the Dark Side far surpasses Raynar's own.

Oh, and Sidious wasn't trained by a farmboy still learning the techniques himself.



I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Zonoma Sekot itself was a living planet and thus able to use the Force on it's own. Given that it's so immense, I'm not surprised that its grasp of the Force is so powerful.

So, looks like you're not showing causation here.

Kun can and will stomp DN Luke, by himself.

Alright then.Looks like a tie to me.Kun will not 'stomp' Luke,but he might defeat him,barely.Kun isn't all powerful,niether is Luke(which I retract my earlier post BTW),I'd still say it's very close tie,both are equally powerful.The only one that would get 'stomped' here is Ulic,who is basically not needed.

Originally posted by Fox5
Alright then.Looks like a tie to me.Kun will not 'stomp' Luke,but he might defeat him,barely.Kun isn't all powerful,niether is Luke(which I retract my earlier post BTW),I'd still say it's very close tie,both are equally powerful.The only one that would get 'stomped' here is Ulic,who is basically not needed.

Both Kun and Luke are close to all powerful and in the respective era's they are, but judging by the powers they have shown, Luke and Kun are on par with each other, with Luke perhaps slightly better. Ulic might give Kun the edge he needs to beat Luke though.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun can and will stomp DN Luke, by himself.

You're right about the By himself part,IKC.But Kun will DEFINATELY not 'stomp' Luke,at the very least he will barely defeat him,remember,they're both equally powerful in their respectable eras,but Kun has more experience.So he will defeat him,but barely.

Originally posted by IKC
Stop calling them "trained Jedi." It's more accurate to call them NJO Jedi, and I question the pedastal they've been placed on.

Than lets stop calling the dudes with weeks / month / some years of training which are your beloved TOTJ characters "Jedi". I question the pedastal they've been placed on.



Apparently reading is you friend. Threat it well. Did you see me posting something like "OMG ! He had the power of 375 planet so he must be 375 times as power as Sidious" ? No ? Thx.



And this isn't Star Wars According to IKC either. He was able to take over his own clone bodies, yes. Wow. If we hadn't examples of JA Luke, Ragnos, and Obi-Wans force spirit doing basically the same (take over a body) I would be impressed.



Ah...the "untrained DE Luke myth" again. That relative untrained Luke advanced from "dude who could barely lift his lightsaber" into "dude that can escape Darth Vader" (notice how many "trained PT Jedi" didn't manage to do that) in the matter of weeks / months at max. Than he advanced from that to a "Jedi" who was able to tool enemies that Maul descriped as "worthy opponents" (Black Sun members - SotE), wreck dozens of Bountyhunters and put Vader on his ass (something several PT Jedi Masters didn't manage to do) in another 6 months. Then he goes through another 6 years of self-training, training under Obi-Wans, Yodas and Anakins spirits, combat and knowledge search.

In DE he blocks fire from an AT-AT with his force powers (where a normal blaster did hurt him in ROTJ) and destroys said AT-AT with a force push. Sidious himself tells him that he has "grown very strong in the force" since their last meeting. He creates a force image of himself that people can touch and interact with like it's a real person. Than he proceeds with force pushing Sidious into a wall. Not to mention that 200-year-old Nomi-Sunrider-descendant and trained PT Jedi Vima Da Boda calls Luke a "Jedi Master".

Or are we talking about "untrained" Leia who ripped apart some nice metal structure to drop it on Sidious head and cut through various people with a lightsaber ?

Still you act as if they are both still the same we have seen in ROTJ.



"As Leia continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke..."
"With the power of luminous beings brother and sister Jedi press the force arround the dark nexus that is Emperor Palpatine..."
"With all his rage funneled into the Death Storm, the malevolent genius is caught off guard...seperating from his power... finds himself unable to control the dark power he has unleashed and the cataclysmic storm turns against his maker."

Comment of Luke directly after that happens: "He's conquered himself."

So they did catch him offguard and then they only seperated him from his force storm which than turned against his creator. They didn't overpower him. And how often do I have to tell you that he didn't use the entire planet ?



It's nice how you simply ignore that this is Luke with additional 2 decades of knowledge gaining when we saw his power growing massively in the matter of 6 months (ESB - ROTJ) and even more in the time period between ROTJ and DE.



I love how you simply ignore the holocron Leia stole from Sidious ("a record of Jedi history and teachings", "a Jedi teaching device", the things discovered on Ossus, the knowledge learned from the Falannassi, the entire knowledge stored on the Chu'unthor, and the amassed knowledge Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker passed to Luke - just to be able to keep the idea that Luke was "selftrained" (like Exar ?!) and therefore didn't know anything.



Oh. Great. Now force powers are dependant on physical greatness ? Do you want to argue with me about the power difference between "one living planet" and "375 planets covered with nests including trillions of beings" ?



Oh selftrained Kun will be able to do that ? *cough* IF he's able to defeat DN Luke he will surely not even come close to "stomp" him.

Good post Borbarad. Although I agree, IF Kun did beat Luke, it wouldn't be easy. I think Luke could win as well. But in terms of answering this thread, there's no way that Luke could take both Kun and Ulic. One at a time, perhaps, but not at the same time, no way.

Agreed, Anomaly.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Good post Borbarad. Although I agree, IF Kun did beat Luke, it wouldn't be easy. I think Luke could win as well. But in terms of answering this thread, there's no way that Luke could take both Kun and Ulic. One at a time, perhaps, but not at the same time, no way.

Well I said that he might be able to do that if he can knock off Ulic with a force attack. When Ulic and Kun enter melee combat with him at once he's most likely dead.

I agree with you guys, that if Ulic and Kun have perfect collusion they will most likely take Luke, assuming Luke doesn't destroy Ulic with a force attack. I will emphasize this point again, referring to Kun's amulet blast and Luke's emerald lightning since nobody has been able to give a strong argument for either. Luke hasn't been shown to use his on a force user, while Kun hasn't been shown to use his on a living force user, so the force battle between the two is inconclusive, no matter what the biased opinions are, this is just fact unless anyone can prove me wrong. Then we have saber combat in which it is also inconclusive who is the better fighter between Luke and Kun, since Kun was the greatest of his time and Luke was the greatest of his time.. Either way I'd say Ulic goes down first..

Possibly, but the fact that Kun's saber style was unique and that he was able to destroy the best of his order with relative easy, i would put Kun's saber skill above DN Luke, although just barely

If you put his skills above Luke why would you say just barely? How would you know if they were just barely better? And youre listing feats here, because Luke didn't have an enemy with a saber to contend with, that automatically puts his lightsaber abilities below Kun?

moreso, it puts Kun with more experience against an enemy with a lightsaber, and considering Kun literally curbstomped every single one of Jedi Masters, without any trouble and considering Luke has problems with almost every major enemy i would say Kun's melee skills are superior.

By barely i mean that he isnt much better not like leagues above Luke.

Originally posted by Deception
Possibly, but the fact that Kun's saber style was unique and that he was able to destroy the best of his order with relative easy, i would put Kun's saber skill above DN Luke, although just barely

Despite being stated to be a form V user Luke's style appears to be unique too. At least he has some knowledge of form III and IV (Obi-Wans journal / Yoda) than form V, apparently form II (he used one handed precise movements in DN), Jar'Kai (NJO) and he can switch his weapon hand (DN).

If you go by the Jedi Academy games it's even possible that he generated new styles by blending the old ones "Fast style" (form II / III blend - precise, fast cuts out of a defensive using short and quick blade movements), "Medium Style" (equilibrium between speed and power, possibly similar to Obi-Wan's Sokan - form III / IV blend) and the "Strong style" (as it appears a blend of form IV; V and VII - 100 % agression partitially fueled by rage using powerful swings).

This is of course speculation but I guess by Luke different use of lightsaber he might really use a unique style or he at least can use different forms on a similar skill level.



Can somebody give me the quote from the TOTJ comics that labels Vodo the "best lightsaber fighter" of the TOTJ era Jedi order and show me were to find it- because I can't. The fact that he was something like the grandmaster alone as well that he used a stick more powerful (because he used the force to make it that way) than a lightsaber alone don't qualify him for that title (especially since we have Ulic - trained by another master - stalemating Kun).



I wonder where Kun gathered all his lightsaber experience. The only people he was fighting with were Sylvar, Crado, Ulic and Vodo. Sylvar scratched his face, Ulic stalemated him and Vodo defeated him first and than lost to him.
Still...Luke had actual fights against Vader (twice), his own clone, Mara Jade, DE Sidious (twice), Gantoris, Kueller, Brakiss, Desann, Welk and Lomi Plo (and slaughtered an army of Yuuzhan Vong in melee combat - including the Supreme Overlord). Not to mention he had nearly 3 decades more time for "training" compared to Exar.



And considering that Kun just fought only one single Jedi Master (Vodo) with a lightsaber you probably did read other comics than I did. And considering what calibres Luke had to deal with (Vader, DE Sidious, Shimra etc.) I doubt that translates into "Oh my god. Luke sucks in lightsaber combat".

I hate to say it since I say it a lot but I agree with NAI.. Vodo might have been the grandmaster but nowhere does it state that he was the greatest saber duelist.