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By excluding the Ancient Sith, and Freedon Nadd who are the top 10 fighters? Do not include more than one incarntion of a character

yoda
Mace
Sidious
Dooku
Anakin
OB1
Luke
Qui-Gon
Bane
Revan

not in that order, I just wanted to get them out.

The Ancients wouldn't comprise of Kun, so replace Obi with him.

Luke Skywalker
Exar Kun
Darth Sidious
Kyp Durron
Darth Bane
Darth Traya
Revan/Yoda
Jacen Solo
Darth Tyranus

In that order IMO.

uh...youd put dooku above mace? didnt mace beat dooku?

Uh, no. And do you people realize how many times this has been done before?

Darth Nihilus
Luke Skywalker
Anakin Skywalker
Exile
Marka Ragnos
Exar Kun
Revan
Yoda
Kreia
Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Faunus
Uh, no. And do you people realize how many times this has been done before? 42.

No, that's the answer to life.

The answer to 'how many times this has been done' is about 5 million multiplied by infinity.

Eleventeen?

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
Darth Nihilus
Luke Skywalker
Anakin Skywalker
Exile
Marka Ragnos
Exar Kun
Revan
Yoda
Kreia
Darth Sidious

Notice how i say, excludes the Ancient Sith.

Anakin Skywalker - Huge potential, yet never reached it due to his mutilation at Mustafar

Exile - No canon source on his power, considered to be an average Jedi Master, a wound in the force

Marka Ragnos - The Most powerful, but this thread excludes him, and his minions, this rating begins at Kun's time to the Dark Nest Period

Revan - By no means ranked in the top 10 even if you exclude the Ancient Sith, powerful yes, but not one of the most powerful of the most powerful

Kreia - No known power about from her instakill, which originated from the Ancient Sith, logic speculation also concludes she generated the attack through the Exile

Nihilus - In terms of power, not that powerful, however due to being a fluke in the force is able to destroy an force sensitive being

Yoda - Perhaps one of the strongest Jedi during the PT era, however he is outclassed in EU terms.

Kun - Probably the strongest after DN Luke, he surpasses everyone else on your list

Luke - Excluding the Ancient Sith, and Nadd he is the strongest.

I'm no Revan fanboy, but we can argue that Revan is indeed one of the top. Not THE most powerful, hell, maybe not even making the top 10 if my list's wrong, but he's up there.

Luke
Kun
Nihilus
Palpatine
Kreia
Yoda
Revan
Kyp
Malak
Mace perhaps.


I can't summon the abilities of other post-ROTJ characters, and I agree that since Anakin COULD have been powerful, but never made it, he can't be counted.

1. DN Luke/Exar Kun
2. DN Luke/Exar Kun
3. DE Palpatine
4. Kyp Durron
5. Darth Revan
6. Darth Traya/Darth Bane
7. Darth Traya/Darth Bane
8. Master Yoda
9. Darth Malak
10. Count Dooku

Agree with that, although I think Malak should be switched out for Mace Windu, who'd take either 9 or 10. I suggest you read Shatterpoint for further elaboration.

Agreed.

I'd put Malak, Mace and Dooku on the same level..

Just about.

Originally posted by Faunus
Agree with that, although I think Malak should be switched out for Mace Windu, who'd take either 9 or 10. I suggest you read Shatterpoint for further elaboration.

Well, there's the entire problem. I never have read Shatterpoint. Tell me, compared to Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious, where would Mace rank in terms of Force Powers?

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, there's the entire problem. I never have read Shatterpoint. Tell me, compared to Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious, where would Mace rank in terms of Force Powers?

Same with me, what did he do with the force that was so impressive? Or showed enough control to be on this list?

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, there's the entire problem. I never have read Shatterpoint. Tell me, compared to Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious, where would Mace rank in terms of Force Powers?

Well, his perception and grasp of the Force is amazing, as his shatterpoint technique as a youngling surpassed that of most Jedi Masters. Some examples:

- After being set up and captured, he's questioned by a man named Geptun: instantly, revealed in his mind are a dozen points on the man's body where a single blow would break him.
- A Corusca gem is described as being hard enough to withstand a full-on blow from a 5 kg hammer. Mace could shatter it with a gentle tap on its weak points, which are nigh impossible to find.
- When trying to rescue a group of children in an oven of a steamcrawler, he uses the Force to swiftly trace the network of cracks and fissures to a single weak point, and then brings an entire cliff down.
- He literally rides this like a wave, manipulating parts of its course to get to the sandcrawler.

His raw power is impressive as well:

- After he triggers a landslide, one of the kids in the vehicle shoot at him, disrupting his focus. The landslide is lost from his control, and begins to drag the steamcrawler into a volcano. On his back, Mace manages to grip and suspend - in the air - the entire landslide, which was said to consist of several hundred metric tons of rock, earth, and the ilk.
- In When They Were Brothers, he gets pissed off at Grievous, who'd just killed Adi Gallia, and slams him into the ground with a massive swoop.

And on a side note, when he was but fourteen and went to Hurikane to find the elements of his almost prophesized lightsaber, he was frightened by a band of natives, and hurled them into an abyss.

I'd have to say, however, that Mace's most impressive feats are in the ways he manipulates his physical self with the Force. There are far too many to list, but here're a couple.

- Against Kar Vastor, he launches himself with such speed and power that he and the shaman are suspended in the air for enough time to engage in a short, airborne brawl.
- In the same battle, he fires off six combination blows - two elbows, a pair of crosses, a knee to the midsection, and a palm to the face - before his enemy can blink.

If you want martial and dueling feats as well, I can provide some.

1. Darth Nihilus.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Luke Skywalker.
4. Exar Kun.
5. Freedon Nadd.
6. Ajunta Pall.
7. Darth Traya.
8. Kyp Durron.
9. Darth Bane.
10. Darth Revan.

^Insert Ragnos as #1, and remove Ajunta, he's too mysterious and vague.

Ragnos is an ancient sith.

*smacks head* There's been so many TOP threads recently I've lost track.

In that case though, you still have to remove Ajunta.

Wasn't Ajunta human? By ancient sith, does he not mean sith as in the sith race? Well in that case I will remove Ajunta, and I just realised that I forgot Sidious. In fact, replace Ajunta with Sidious.

Yep, Ajunta was one of the first Jedi exiled by the Republic for practising the Dark Side. He was not a descendant of the Sith Race but rather one of the founders.

1. DN Luke.
2. Nihilus
3. DE Palpatine
4. Exar Kun
5. Freedon Nadd
6. Revan
7. Sion
8. Kreia
9. Kyp
10. Bane

I'm forgetting a few I'm sure.

Originally posted by Deception
By excluding the Ancient Sith, and Freedon Nadd who are the top 10 fighters? Do not include more than one incarntion of a character

People, Freedon Nadd is also excluded.

Is Pall also excluded?

Was Freedon classified as Ancient, as in the species?

And yes, pall is also excluded.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Was Freedon classified as Ancient, as in the species?

And yes, pall is also excluded.

Nope... Freedon Nadd was human.

Pall was also human so why not include him?

1. Darth Nihilus.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Luke Skywalker.
4. Exar Kun.
5. Darth Sidious.
6. Ajunta Pall.
7. Darth Traya.
8. Kyp Durron.
9. Darth Bane.
10. Darth Revan.

Revan was more powerful than Bane, was he not?

So is the thread excluding all the member of the Sith RACE?

Cuz if so, then Nadd is included, as is Ajunta Pall since he was not actually a member of the species.

I used to think so but I kinda changed my mind a while back. The 'jedi versus sith' force users were actually pretty amazing, and it is what you would expect considering how martial a period it was.

1) DN Luke Skywalker
2) Exar Kun
3) Darth Nihilus
4) DE Sidious
5) Darth Revan
6) Darth Sion
7) Darth Traya
8) Kyp Durron
9) Yoda
10) Ulic Qel Droma

My list may have lots of flaws so go easily on me. i don't really know much all these people besides what I read on the net.

1) Exar Kun
2) Luke
3) Yoda
4) Sidious
5) Exile/Nihilus
6) Freedon Nadd
7) Jacen
8) Anakin
9) Mace
10) Kyp/Plo Koon

Also, I want to ask you all to put all force users around/before KOTOR in order of power. I need to know for the fanfic I'm writing. I think it would be best to ask here instead of going and making another thread.

1. Darth Revan.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Darth Sion.
4. Darth Bane.
5. Darth Nihilus.
6. Darth Traya.
7. Zayne Carrick.
8. Jacen Solo.
9. Kyp Durron.
10. Lord Hoth.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
My list may have lots of flaws so go easily on me. i don't really know much all these people besides what I read on the net.

1) Exar Kun
2) Luke
3) Yoda
4) Sidious
5) Exile/Nihilus
6) Freedon Nadd
7) Jacen
8) Anakin
9) Mace
10) Kyp/Plo Koon

Also, I want to ask you all to put all force users around/before KOTOR in order of power. I need to know for the fanfic I'm writing. I think it would be best to ask here instead of going and making another thread.

KOTOR:
1. Darth Revan.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Darth Nihilus.
4. Darth Traya.
5. Zayne Carrick.
6. Darth Malak.
7. Darth Bandon.
8. Visas Marr.
9. Bastilla Shan.
10. Atris.
11. Jolee Bindo.
12. Master Kavar.
13. Juhani.
14. Master Vandar.
15. Master Vrook.

Originally posted by Count Kent
KOTOR:
1. Darth Revan.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Darth Nihilus.
4. Darth Traya.
5. Zayne Carrick.
6. Darth Malak.
7. Darth Bandon.
8. Visas Marr.
9. Bastilla Shan.
10. Atris.
11. Jolee Bindo.
12. Master Kavar.
13. Juhani.
14. Master Vandar.
15. Master Vrook.
Why is Bandon at 7?

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Why is Bandon at 7? Because that list fails. And I believe it'd go something akin to this(based on the characters at their peaks):

1. Darth Nihilus
2. Darth Traya/Revan
3. Darth Traya/Revan
4. Darth Malak
5. Darth Sion
6. Master Vandar
7. Master Vrook
8. Master Kavar
9. Atris
10 Bastila Shan
11. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
12. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
13. Juhani
14. Visas Marr
15. Zayne Carrick

That's your opinion. My list does not fail.

Yes, it does fail. Now stop posting here for a week, don't read that True Power Chronicles stuff, and play KotOR; after that you should be cured of the Numan disease and hopefully be a completely un-KotOR biased and/or a lieing troll.

Your's completely fails. You put Visas above the Exile when he in fact defeated her before.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Your's completely fails. You put Visas above the Exile when he in fact defeated her before. Zayne=/=Exile. Fail. And it's "fails", not "fail's".

No matter whether The Exile is Zayne and no matter what you and I believe, you still didn't put 'The Exile' above Visas.

And Zayne is The Exile.

Originally posted by Count Kent
No matter whether The Exile is Zayne and no matter what you and I believe, you still didn't put 'The Exile' above Visas.

And Zayne is The Exile. What the hell? Where's the proof of Zayne being the Exile? Hmm? I think that's bullshit. Now get to providing quotes and evidence of such a claim.

Whatever. You still didn't include The Exile in your list, so accept that it's wrong.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Whatever. You still didn't include The Exile in your list, so accept that it's wrong. He's still pretty much an unknown.

However he has beaten Visas, yet you still didn't place him above Visas, therefor you're list fails. Ha ha.

Both lists fail, because they are opinion.

Nice point.

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Because that list fails. And I believe it'd go something akin to this(based on the characters at their peaks):

1. Darth Nihilus
2. Darth Traya/Revan
3. Darth Traya/Revan
4. Darth Malak
5. Darth Sion
6. Master Vandar
7. Master Vrook
8. Master Kavar
9. Atris
10 Bastila Shan
11. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
12. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
13. Juhani
14. Visas Marr
15. Zayne Carrick

I always put Visas and Bastila on the same level and above Nihilus, and the Exile at the top. However, you guys failed to put the ancient Sith into the list.

1. Darth Nihilus.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Exar Kun.
4. Luke Sywalker.
5. DE Sidious.
6. Darth Traya.
7. Darth Bane.
8. Jacen Solo.
9. Kyp Durron.
10. Revan/The Exile/Darth Zannah/Yoda.

Tier One:

1. DN Luke
2. DE Palpatine
3. Exar Kun

Tier Two:

4. Kyp Durron
5. Darth Revan
6. Darth Traya

Tier Three:

7. Master Yoda
8. Darth Malak
9. Mace Windu
10. Count Dooku

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
I always put Visas and Bastila on the same level and above Nihilus, and the Exile at the top. However, you guys failed to put the ancient Sith into the list. I woulda done that, but Nihilus' insta-kill>all. And if we throw in the Ancient Sith, however(don't start a frigging debate people, it's my opinion. And to make a note, I'm not including Nomi, Andor, or the Ketos in this):

1. Darth Nihilus
2. Marka Ragnos
3. Naga Sadow/Ludo Kreesh
4. Naga Sadow/Ludo Kreesh
5. Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun
6. Freedon Nadd/Exar Kun
7. Vodo
8. Darth Traya/Revan
9. Darth Traya/Revan
10. Ulic Qel Droma
11. Ood Bnar
12. Master Thon
13. Darth Malak
14. Darth Sion
15. Master Vandar
16. Master Vrook
17. Master Kavar
18. Atris
19. Bastila Shan
20. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
21. Darth Bandon/Jolee Bindo
22. Juhani
23. Visas Marr
24. Zayne Carrick

On the main topic:

1. Exar Kun/DN Luke
2. Exar Kun/DN Luke
3. DE Sidious
4. Kyp Durron
5. Traya/Revan
6. Traya/Revan
7. Yoda
8. Malak/Mace/Dooku
9. RotS Anakin
10. RotS Obi-Wan

Thanks for that Saboteur.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Escape81
Tier One:

1. DN Luke
2. DE Palpatine
3. Exar Kun

Tier Two:

4. Kyp Durron
5. Darth Revan
6. Darth Traya

Tier Three:

7. Master Yoda
8. Darth Malak
9. Mace Windu
10. Count Dooku Same here.

1. Darth Revan.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Darth Sion.
4. Darth Bane.
5. Darth Nihilus.
6. Darth Traya.
7. The Jedi Exile.
8. Jacen Solo.
9. Kyp Durron.
10. Lord Hoth.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. Darth Revan.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Darth Sion.
4. Darth Bane.
5. Darth Nihilus.
6. Darth Traya.
7. The Jedi Exile.
8. Jacen Solo.
9. Kyp Durron.
10. Lord Hoth.

No. Darth Revan may be one of the most powerful, and I don't dispute it. But, LotF Luke is about five leagues or so above him. Plus, you're just listing the cast of KotoR. Luke pwns them. Sidious pwns them. Yoda might. Kyp Durron would.

Tier One:

1. LotF Luke Skywalker
2. DE Emperor Palpatine/Exar Kun
3. DE Emperor Palpatine/Exar Kun

Tier Two:

4. LotF Kyp Durron
5. Ulic Qel Droma
6. Darth Revan/Darth Traya
7. Darth Revan/Darth Traya

Tier Three:

8. Yoda/RotS Palpatine
9. Yoda/RotS Palpatine
10. RotS Anakin Skywalker/LotF Jacen Solo
11. RotS Mace Windu/Count Dooku
12. RotS Mace Windu/Count Dooku
13. Darth Scion/Darth Nihilius
14. LotF Lady Lumiya
15. The Exile

That is more of an accurate list (I keep updating mine - because I leave out specific characters). I can't believe I left out Ulic!!!

Originally posted by Escape81
No. Darth Revan may be one of the most powerful, and I don't dispute it. But, LotF Luke is about five leagues or so above him. Plus, you're just listing the cast of KotoR. Luke pwns them. Sidious pwns them. Yoda might. Kyp Durron would.

Tier One:

1. LotF Luke Skywalker
2. DE Emperor Palpatine/Exar Kun
3. DE Emperor Palpatine/Exar Kun

Tier Two:

4. LotF Kyp Durron
5. Ulic Qel Droma
6. Darth Revan/Darth Traya
7. Darth Revan/Darth Traya

Tier Three:

8. Yoda/RotS Palpatine
9. Yoda/RotS Palpatine
10. RotS Anakin Skywalker/LotF Jacen Solo
11. RotS Mace Windu/Count Dooku
12. RotS Mace Windu/Count Dooku
13. Darth Scion/Darth Nihilius
14. LotF Lady Lumiya
15. The Exile

That is more of an accurate list (I keep updating mine - because I leave out specific characters). I can't believe I left out Ulic!!!

Well KOTOR does tend to overpower their characters. As does the NJO.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Well KOTOR does tend to overpower their characters. As does the NJO.

KotoR really doesn't. See, Darth Revan is a virtual unknown. If you'd like to get technical - we know that he used an ability called "Force Storm". But it's no where on the level of Palpatine's, nor is it even close to being that advanced.

Traya is immensely powerful due to her one-hit-K.O. But that is still an unknown, as she was unable to do it on Nihilius, Scion, or the Exile.

So, I submit to you, that as far as we know now - Revan isn't the most powerful. Neither is Traya. Malak is good, but neither is he.

LotF Luke, DE Palpatine, and Exar Kun are head and shoulders above all KotoR characters.

Right, head and shoulders above people like Revan (who was able to destroy an entire order of dark jedi), Sion (who was physically invincible), Nihilus (who could basically consume the force), and Traya (who could intantkill powerful jedi masters on the spot). Sure thing

And I wasn't denying that Luke is up there at the top, but Kun or Sidious? They are totally weak compared to the best of the best. And KOTOR does overpower their characters. The KOTOR characters are the most godlike characters in the SW saga. Only Bane, Luke and a few others are in the same league as the KOTOR top dogs.

And just so you know, a storm of lightning and the force storm are two totally different techniques.

Darth Revan is virtually an unknown. All you have in support of him is gameplay mechanic and second-hand accounts of his supposed power. Not even Traya gave specifics.

Traya's instakill didn't save her from Scion and Nihilius (when she was betrayed). Nor did it save her from The Exile.



Firstly, Luke is the top. He could WTFpwn Revan. He could own Kun and Sidious.

Secondly, Kun and Palpatine have done far more than Revan. Palpatine can conquer entire fleets with a single Force attack. He can transport people across the galaxy. He mastered the Dark Side more than any other. Kun can freeze the Senate. He is a master of dueling. He's a master of Sith Alchemy. His mere spirit could imbue Force-users with immense power. I.e Kyp Durron.

They are leagues above Revan.



Yeah, okay. Sure they are.



Precisely my point. Palpatine's Force Storm is leagues, leagues, leagues above Revan's own. He could pwn Revan.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

That's your choice.

A word of advice. When you have an opinion, and you try to pass it off as fact in a debate, try supporting it.

LotF Jacen is a threat to Luke... He's above Kyp at this point. He's also a hell of alot stronger than Anakin.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
LotF Jacen is a threat to Luke... He's above Kyp at this point. He's also a hell of alot stronger than Anakin.

Meh. I put him there simply based off of his duel against the Force-phantom that Lumiya was generating. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that would make me put him on Kyp's level, though I'm sure he has the potential to surpass him.

That phantom was said to be a match for Luke, was it not ?

It's kinda strange though. With Anakin gone, Kyp had (firmly) the most potential of the NJO. Yet Betrayal makes Jacen seem like a badass.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
That phantom was said to be a match for Luke, was it not ?

It's kinda strange though. With Anakin gone, Kyp had (firmly) the most potential of the NJO. Yet Betrayal makes Jacen seem like a badass.

That's my point. Several inconsistencies. And Jacen didn't have a real helluva time with the Phantom, which makes me wonder if he's not already being portrayed as a match for Luke.

My revised list:

1. Exar Kun
2. The (my) Exile/ Darth Nihilus
3. Luke Skywalker
4. Pre suit Darth Vader
5. Jacen
6. Yoda/ Kyp/ Sidious
7. Mace Windu
8.Darth Revan
9. Count Dooku
10. Kyle Katarn

lmao

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
My revised list:

1. Exar Kun
2. The (my) Exile/ Darth Nihilus
3. Luke Skywalker
4. Pre suit Darth Vader
5. Jacen
6. Yoda/ Kyp/ Sidious
7. Mace Windu
8.Darth Revan
9. Count Dooku
10. Kyle Katarn

Well, the problem is that "The Exile" you created isn't the valid canon one.

Exar Kun is at second place, with Luke topping the list.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
lmao
Better than your's.

It really isn't. All these lists are a matter of opinion, yet your list is totally flawed.

For instance, you can't just include your own version of The Exile. That's just silly.

And I certainly don't have a problem with you including the PT jedi in your list; as I said, it's a matter of opinion but the fact that you put Anakin above the likes of Sidious when it is not only plain obvious and common sense that he is weaker then the two, but has also been proven and established and even confirmed by Lucas is just plain stupid.

And the fact that you have failed to include force users like Sion, Bane or Traya shows that you are just plain ignorant.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
It really isn't. All these lists are a matter of opinion, yet your list is totally flawed.

For instance, you can't just include your own version of The Exile. That's just silly.

And I certainly don't have a problem with you including the PT jedi in your list; as I said, it's a matter of opinion but the fact that you put Anakin above the likes of Sidious when it is not only plain obvious and common sense that he is weaker then the two, but has also been proven and established and even confirmed by Lucas is just plain stupid.

And the fact that you have failed to include force users like Sion, Bane or Traya shows that you are just plain ignorant.

I don't believe you, Mr. Revan-Despite-Being-A-Virtual-Unknown-Owns-All, have the authority or the weight behind your words to dictate who is ignorant and who is not.

Though, I do have to say, Blue Hefner there are some fatal laws to your lists. Your Exile isn't the established canon one, therefore, he cannot be ranked. LotF Luke Skywalker is undeniably the most powerful Force user we have seen, with Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine coming in as close seconds.

Well I know I was slightly rude, but you understand where I'm coming from right?

fine then.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Exar Kun
3. DE Sidious
4. Darth Nihilus
5. Yoda
6. Obi Wan/ Jacen
7. Mace Windu/Kyp
8. Darth Revan
9. Vader
10. Kyle Katarn

Any problems with this one?

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
fine then.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Exar Kun
3. DE Sidious
4. Darth Nihilus
5. Yoda
6. Obi Wan/ Jacen
7. Mace Windu/Kyp
8. Darth Revan
9. Vader
10. Kyle Katarn

Any problems with this one?

A lot of it is just opinion. Except for specifics, like Luke topping the list. His achievements blow all the others to hell and back. Kun and Palpatine are firm number twos or threes, simply because of their considerable achievements as well.

Nihilius....... is hard. I suppose he'd be up there, too. Especially if his drain works on "everybody".

And, even though GM Nebaris is - in my opinion - a biased idiot, I'd still put Revan above most, if not all, PT characters.

Originally posted by Escape81
And, even though GM Nebaris is - in my opinion - a biased idiot, I'd still put Revan above most, if not all, PT characters.

lol

Luke is easily top, followed by Palp, Yoda, Exar and probably Jacen by now

Luke wasn't too far off DE Sidious by DE. BY DN, Kyp, Jacen and a bunch of others are quite close to his power levels. How could you possibly put DE Sidious above people like Kyp, Jacen, Jaina, Raynar, Kam, Kyle, Corran etc.

Quit whining.

Sidious can eat fleets for breakfast, can teleport any entity from anywhere to any place, drains the Force from planets.

Not to mention that it took the Force attunement of Luke, Leia, and her unborn son to topple Sidious's Force Storm, and - on this deathbed he defeated everyone who engaged him in combat on Onderon.

Also, last but not least, Brand said that it would require "all of the Jedi before " to keep Sidious's spirit in confinement.

The samw was about Marka Ragnos, and look at what Jaden did by himself. Can't believe i forgot about him

Jaden or Ragnos?

Jaden

Jaden's good, but not quite up there at the top imo.

Jaden is not even close to the top dogs....

Yeah, I suppose.

But sion is??

Funny, he never showed any of those powers besides regenerating to me in any of my games. I still don't think he's powerful since the only remarkable ability he has is regeneration.

Oh right, sure thing Hefner. He is basically invincible but that doesn't make him powerful does it?

Nope, he's pretty weak in the game.

Well you see, that's a thing known as game mechanics, dumbass.

None of the stuff that you mentioned is as great as what Sion is able to do.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
None of the stuff that you mentioned is as great as what Sion is able to do.

Once again, you overvalue the importance of your own opinion. You are not an authority enough to tell me (or anyone else) that "this stuff isn't as great as So-And-So's capabilities, because I say so".

Secondly, what I just posted isn't my opinion. You listed Scion's feats from a Wookipedia article, and I responded with the article it listed for Palpatine. You see, Wookipedia isn't a truly valid source for information, because anyone may edit it.

Sidious has nothing on Sion. What has he ever done that is on par wit Sion being able to make himself physically invincible.

Spiritual invincibility?

As I said, physically invincible.

KOTOR:
1. Darth Revan.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Darth Nihilus.
4. Darth Traya.
5. The Jedi Exile.
6. Darth Malak.
7. Bastilla Shan.
8. Darth Bandon.
9. Visas Marr.
10. Jolee Bindo.

GAOTS and FOTSE:
1. Naga Sadow.
2. Lord Simus.
3. Odun-Urr.
4. Marka Ragnos.
5. Ludo Kressh.
6. Master Ooroo.
7. Horak-Mul.
8. Dor-Gal-Ram.
9. Memit Nadill.
10. Anavus Svag

TFNU, TKOTOR, DLOTS, TSW and Redemption:
1. Freedon Nadd.
2. Odun-Urr.
3. Exar Kun.
4. Vodo-Siosk Bass.
5. Master Thon.
6. Ulic Quel-Droma.
7. Nomi Sunrider.
8. Arca Jeth.
9. Ood Bnar.
10. King Ommin.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
KOTOR:
1. Darth Revan.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Darth Nihilus.
4. Darth Traya.
5. The Jedi Exile.
6. Darth Malak.
7. Bastilla Shan.
8. Darth Bandon.
9. Visas Marr.
10. Jolee Bindo.
I see you are still putting the exile under people he already he was stronger than. But your's is still better than mine's...

Who was the Exile stronger than?

He only beat Nihilus because he was immune to his force drain and was a hole in the force, thus when Nihilus attempted to force drain him, it weakened him because there was nothing to drain, or the death of the force so to speak. There was also the fact that Nihilus kind of relied on his force drain technique, and without it he wasn't too impressive.

He only beat Sion because Sion couldn't handle how Traya (who he loved very much, worshipped as an idol in fact) loved the Exile more then anything in the world, and thus lost the will to live. it's pretty clear that The Exile had no way in beating him.

He only beat Traya because Traya loved him more than anything in the world and wanted him to live (kind of like Vader with Luke).

He was only able to defeat because he was stronger. That is the only true reason.

Whatever. Arguing over game charcters is pointless. Their strength depends on your games so they don't have any definite power levels.

Sure thing Blue

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Sidious has nothing on Sion. What has he ever done that is on par wit Sion being able to make himself physically invincible.

Once again, I ask you not to tell me who is superior to whom based on your own assumptions and opinions. You must provide fact.

What you're doing now is comparing the feats between the two and judging, based on your own bias. It doesn't work with me.

Well sorry, but supplying random quotes from random people who nobody knows doesn't quite work with me. Not only do you fail to realise that relying on quotes is very bad in debates for a number of reasons, but you also fail to supply the quote in a way that I can understand the context that said quote was given in. In short, you need to consider how genuine the quote is, how reliable the source is, the context that the quote is used in and you have also seemed to ignore the fact that quotes are often contradicted and retconned. I'll give you an example. You and Lightsnake always used to claim that Sidious was the most powerful because for one thing, the NEC claims this. I supplied the perfect counter. Firstly, the quote was given so casually and vaguely that it was hard to determine how credible the quote was. Secondly, the NEC was written from an in-universe perception, which seriously undermines the credibility of the quote and undermines your whole argument.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Well sorry, but supplying random quotes from random people who nobody knows doesn't quite work with me. Not only do you fail to realise that relying on quotes is very bad in debates for a number of reasons, but you also fail to supply the quote in a way that I can understand the context that said quote was given in. In short, you need to consider how genuine the quote is, how reliable the source is, the context that the quote is used in and you have also seemed to ignore the fact that quotes are often contradicted and retconned. I'll give you an example. You and Lightsnake always used to claim that Sidious was the most powerful because for one thing, the NEC claims this. I supplied the perfect counter. Firstly, the quote was given so casually and vaguely that it was hard to determine how credible the quote was. Secondly, the NEC was written from an in-universe perception, which seriously undermines the credibility of the quote and undermines your whole argument.

What the hell ? This place has truly reached a new low.

Not as a whole.

GM Nebaris here is a person who (not unlike Nai himself, and most likely a very worse case) passes off his personal opinion as if it were apparent law - without the presence of evidence or facts. At least Nai provides the bare minimum...

He is also proven to be quite the liar. He stated that Lucas claimed that Mace Windu "is more powerful than Palpatine", and yet would not provide the quote from whence that claim originated. My guess is that he lied (or as he puts it - "logically deduced" that Lucas said "Mace is more powerful than Palpatine".

But, don't worry. It's not quite as effective as he thinks.

As for you, GM -



These "random quotes" are lines and statements made directly from characters or passages from the works of these "random people" - which are popular Star Wars EU authors, such as Timothy Zahn, Tom Veitch, or Kevin J. Anderson.

For future reference, in the EU, if a line or statement is not rebuked or retconned by Lucas or LFL - or directly contradicted by another source (which doesn't include you) - then it is to be treated as fact until such a time where it is remedied.



I would appreciate it if you didn't lecture me on context. You're the one who actually manipulates the quotes provided by higher authorities and pass it off as something that it isn't. For example, the statement that Lucas made when "Mace overpowered Palpatine".



I know very well what context it was used in and how genuine it is. The validity of the quote isn't in question unless another source directly contradicts it or it is retconned by LFL.



Some quotes are. Not all. Meaning the ones that aren't are still valid and ripe to be used in debates such as these.



The New Essential Chronology and all of its contents were "LFL approved". It is an accurate source.



I must have missed it, then.



"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

That was the exact quote, if I recall, word-for-word. It wasn't casual, nor was it vague. Nai and Illustrious both indicated that this use of the word "power" was vague. It wasn't. Palpatine's "political power" had no bearing on the fight - especially when the fight itself was a battle to the death and not a lecture in the Senate.



In-universe perceptions are necessary.



Please be so kind as to point out how it does.

Firstly, Escape, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding between us. You seem to think that I got my quote in regards to mace defeating Palpatine because he was more powerful from the ROTS dvd, or have somehow interpreted 'overpowering' to mean being more powerful. This is not the case. I got the quote from a completely different interview, and as I have said before, I will supply the exact quote and source when I am able to find it.

Secondly, I gathered that you seem to think that the only way to question the validity of a quote is to question the canonicity of it. That is completely untrue. Read my previous post more carefully.

Thirdly, the fact that the NEC was written from an in-universe perspective means that the quote loses most of its credibility. If it was written from an out-of-universe perception, then the quote would hold more credibility.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Firstly, Escape, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding between us. You seem to think that I got my quote in regards to mace defeating Palpatine because he was more powerful from the ROTS dvd, or have somehow interpreted 'overpowering' to mean being more powerful. This is not the case. I got the quote from a completely different interview, and as I have said before, I will supply the exact quote and source when I am able to find it.

Secondly, I gathered that you seem to think that the only way to question the validity of a quote is to question the canonicity of it. That is completely untrue. Read my previous post more carefully.

Thirdly, the fact that the NEC was written from an in-universe perspective means that the quote loses most of its credibility. If it was written from an out-of-universe perception, then the quote would hold more credibility.

1. Dont ever use anything in a debate, that you havent already got well documented. You simply saying that the quote is true, isnt sufficient.

2. I see what your saying. An out-of-universe quote from an authority figure is the best kind of proof, however an in-universe quote still trumps an opinion because it is from the actual material whereas your opinion is not.

3. See above.

And dont insult Escape, he is a very intelligent individual, who has been here far longer than you, and is well-respected by alot of people including me.

Dude, he knows as well as everybody that when I make the odd remark, it is just banter. Our insults (yes, he insults me too, just more subtly) tend to stay in the thread that we are debating in. I too respect him, and have even admitted that he is currently probably the second best debater here.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, he knows as well as everybody that when I make the odd remark, it is just banter. Our insults (yes, he insults me too, just more subtly) tend to stay in the thread that we are debating in. I too respect him, and have even admitted that he is currently probably the second best debater here.

I seem to recall you flinging childish insults at him in one of these threads, but yeah a bit of banter is natural in a debate.

Exactly my point.

Don't confuse me with Nai, Nebaris. I don't forcibly imply that you're an idiot, nor do I imply that you're a poor debator.

But, in these cases, you have yet to offer your proof, and instead use the tactic of "because I say so". You say that Scion's feats are vastly superior to Sidious's, but you've yet to tell why. You say that Mace is superior to Yoda, but you've yet to tell why.

Start telling us why, and we'll take you seriously. Which, believe me, you aren't.

It's Sion by the way. And being able to hold your body together and thus withstand any physical attack is far greater then anything Sidious can do imo, and also limits the ways in which he can actually hurt and possibly kill Sion. And I know that palpatine could possibly do morichro pr a force drain or something, but the fact that Sion is able to hold his body together with his anger chanelled by the dark side of the force leads me to believe that his will is so strong that he would be able to resist pretty much anything that Sidious can throw at him. You can also see how much of a badass he is in a couple of cutscenes, and his ferociousness, physical strength and agility was immense.

For some reason I always spell it Scion . . . pardon the habit.



I agree that it takes intense will power. But you believe that that ability is superior to a person who can literally annihilate entire fleets with a single Force-attack?

I am sorry, but in terms of destruction or Force-usage, Sion (spelled it right! ) has not done anything on par with Sidious. Thus, it leads me to believe that Sion is no where near on Sidious's level in terms of Force attacks.



True. But if you can vaporize fleets, you can vaporize the atomic structure of a human.



Which is the point. The Exile defeated Sion by manipulating him. Palpatine is probably the best manipulator that we have ever seen. He is, at least, on par with Kreia herself. Combine that with his phenomenal Force ability, and I don't see how Sion can withstand him.



He has intense will power and hatred, to be sure. But will power does not necessarily translate to Force power. Sion cannot handle a Force Storm.



He certainly possesses superior physical strength to Sidious, but Sidious (by DE) was immensely agile and ferocious, being described as "moving faster than the eye can see".

I am sorry, but in terms of destruction or Force-usage, Sion (spelled it right! ) has not done anything on par with Sidious. Thus, it leads me to believe that Sion is no where near on Sidious's level in terms of Force attacks.

There is more to power and strength in the force then just raw power.



True. But if you can vaporize fleets, you can vaporize the atomic structure of a human.

The point is that Sion would be able to simply hold his body together and thus would not be affected. face it, that it the whole concept behind his technique.



Which is the point. The Exile defeated Sion by manipulating him. Palpatine is probably the best manipulator that we have ever seen. He is, at least, on par with Kreia herself. Combine that with his phenomenal Force ability, and I don't see how Sion can withstand him.

The Exile was only able to break his will because of Traya. Sion just couldn't live knowing that Traya loved The Exile more than anything in the world. Palpatine would not be able to break his will. And he's not even that great a manipulator. His attempt at turning Luke to the darkside in ROTJ was simply pathetic.



He has intense will power and hatred, to be sure. But will power does not necessarily translate to Force power. Sion cannot handle a Force Storm.

I've already explained how he can.


He certainly possesses superior physical strength to Sidious, but Sidious (by DE) was immensely agile and ferocious, being described as "moving faster than the eye can see".

I'm sure Sion was as deadly. The cutscene where he beats the crap out of Traya makes me believe this

I was also thinking, Sion probably had the ability to create force storms as powerful as Palpatine's because in The Book of Anger, Palpatine reveals that there are two essential requirements to produce a devastating force storm, willpower (need i say anything more?) and anger (channelled via the force), and it seems as if Sion possessed probably more anger then Sidious as he seemed to despise the jedi with frightening hate, even more so then sidious. He didn't even want power as most sith do, his only goal was to destroy the jedi. However palpatine could have possibly hid his anger and deep emotions well...
But hypothetically if sion had access to the same knowledge that Sidious had, there is no reason imo that he couldn't possibly replicate palpatine's feat, but even more frighteningly.

Sorry. Kotor II has not displayed Sion using anything on the level of a Force Storm. He has not displayed anything nearing Palpatine's level of power.



His body has never been destroyed down to sheer atoms now has it?



This is where I draw the line. You're saying the Sith Lord who managed to ascend to the highest authority in the galaxy, the man who manipulated the Clone Wars to exterminate the Jedi, the man who enacted the final revenge of the Sith, and the man who ultimately brought about the most powerful military regime in the galaxy's history is not that great of a manipulator?

This is pathetic.

I've lost all room for civilty with you. You're completely beyond reason.



No, you have not.



I don't care what you're sure of. Without proof, you have nothing.

You're now making baseless assumptions. Disgusting.



Doesn't mean jack. He may have had the potential to do it, or even the capability, but - as we've seen with Anakin - potential doesn't mean anything in the current situation.



Could have possibly . . . ? Well, duh! Considering how Palpatine, despite being a Sith Lord, managed to do all the crap he did in the PT had to be good at hiding his emotions.



Baseless assumptions, once again. You're assuming that Sion could make this ability, and now you're assuming that he did it on a level even greater than Sidious's own?

No. Sorry.

You see Escape, you are getting it all wrong. I don't know if you're tired or something or slightly dopey in any way but I was not arguing that Sion possibly produced a force storm sometime during KOTOR1 and 2. I was arguing that Sion possibly had the ability to do so. It was just speculation. I was just saying that seeing as Palpatine confirms that in his Book of Anger, the two things needed to produce devastating force storms is a strong willpower and deep anger channelled through the force, then it's possible that Sion had the ability to perform one (seeing as his willpower is arguably the strongest in the whole star wars saga and his hatred and anger seems to be far greater than Sidious') but just lacked the knowledge into how to do so. Why is that such a crazy thing to believe?

'His body has never been destroyed down to sheer atoms now has it?'

You seem to be unable to comprehend the nature of his technique. He holds his body together via the force, he doesn't simply regenerate like someone like Durge. This means that his willpower is so great that no matter how great, painfull or whatever a physical attack can be, it will not be able to physically affect Sion's body. Sidious' best bet is to mentally attack him.

Speculation, indeed. Furthermore, if Sion possessed the ability to perform Force Storms, he would have done so during KotoR when he was hunting down the Jedi.

He doesn't. So stop trying to "speculate" that he had more power than what was shown.

You seriously do lack good reading comprehension my friend. I was speculating that with the right knowledge, Sion easily has the ability to produce force storms with more devastating power then Sidious. Why is that so hard to believe?He possesses the two requirements that sidious states in his 'Book of Anger' are needed to produce these force storms, but to a frightening degree. However, he seriously didn't have the right knowledge and never learnt the technique...

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
You seriously do lack good reading comprehension my friend. I was speculating that with the right knowledge, Sion easily has the ability to produce force storms with more devastating power then Sidious. Why is that so hard to believe?He possesses the two requirements that sidious states in his 'Book of Anger' are needed to produce these force storms, but to a frightening degree. However, he seriously didn't have the right knowledge and never learnt the technique...

You cannot change SW to what you think it should be, thats just ridiculous.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You cannot change SW to what you think it should be, thats just ridiculous.

Not for him. You should see some of the things he says.

Tier One:

1. LOTF Luke Skywalker.
2. Darth Nihilus.
3. Darth Sion.

Tier Two:

4. Exar Kun.
5. DE Sidious.
6. Darth Bane.
7. Darth Traya.

Tier 3:

8. Darth Revan.
9. LOTF Kyp Durron.
10. Ulic Quel-Droma.

Obviously Luke is #1. Then either Kyp or Yoda..

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
Darth Nihilus
Luke Skywalker
Anakin Skywalker
Exile
Marka Ragnos
Exar Kun
Revan
Yoda
Kreia
Darth Sidious

Marka is an Ancient and he'd Be 2nd

MyList:
1 NIHILUS
2 Luke
3 Exar
4 Yoda
5 Revan
6 Sidious
7 Traya
8 Vodo
9 Malak
10 Dooku

I'm sorry Switch Exar and Yoda:
1 NIHILUS
2 Luke
3 Yoda
4 Exar
5 Revan
6 Sidious
7 Traya
8 Vodo
9 Malak
10 Dooku

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Obviously Luke is #1. Then either Kyp or Yoda..

Weren't you just arguing that Exar>Yoda.

Hey Nebaris, read the topic bro.. And if you can't I'll tell you what it says. "Excludes Ancient Sith". Exar Kun was the last of the ancient sith, therefore he is excluded.

DN Luke is the best version of Luke.. I don't know wtf Legacy of the Force Luke is considering the first book just came out but I imagine they made him an even bigger force god. Exar Kun shouldn't be in it, and neither should Nihilus, since he only displays his force drain as anything impressive.. So top 5 would be um..

1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Kyp
4. Yoda
5. Nomi? Who knows.

lmao, you dumbass, Exar kun wasn't an ancient sith. Please don't be dumb td.

Well technically he was. He was crowned as a sith by Marka Ragnos, who was called The Dark Lord of the Sith of the ancient sith, he was also the last sith before Bane's order was he not???

Erm technically, he wasn't. The ancient sith were a race. Exar Kun was a human, not a sith And the thing is, there are many ways of looking at who the ancient sith were, but the only problem is that the creator of this thread makes it clear that he doesn't put Exar Kun in that catagory.

And he wasn't the last sith.

Exar Kun was the last DLOTS/Sith Lord of the ancient ways, therefore he was the last of the ancients. And I didn't read that the creator had included Kun so um..

1. Luke
2. Exar Kun
3. Sidious
4. Kyp
5. Yoda

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
lmao, you dumbass, Exar kun wasn't an ancient sith. Please don't be dumb td.


And I think you just got shut up again, incompetent troll.

Dude, you still don't get it. the ancient sith were not a religion, cult, organisation, order or anything like that. It refers to the race, nothing else. You can't just change the meaning of the title so it suits what you said (which was foolish and wrong) when the creator of the thread makes it clear that he is taking the more general and technical meaning of ancient sith.

Hence Kamikz good explanation. Technically Exar Kun was an ancient sith, now if the author the ancient sith from GAOTS and before, then that's more clear..

1. Exar wasn't an ancient...no more than Darth Ruin or Revan
2. Exar was hardly the last before Bane's Order, Kamikz...there was Revan, Malak, the Triumvirate, Darth Ruin, Belia Darzu, Darth Rivan, Kaan, the

Exar was the last of the ancients and their teachings, their initiation as a DLOTS..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hence Kamikz good explanation. Technically Exar Kun was an ancient sith, now if the author the ancient sith from GAOTS and before, then that's more clear..

What, because he was crowned by tha ancients and learnt sith magic? You seriously can't be more wrong. Just accpet it: in general the term 'Ancient Sith' refers to the race, and the creator of this thread makes it quite clear that he is taking that general meaning. You're just plain wrong td.

Listen troll if the creator said that then more power to him, if he didn't then the term itself can be interpreted in 1 or 2 ways. Now as I told you before, you need to have a triple digit IQ to type to me, so please refrain from doing so. I don't associate with mentally handicapped/unstable children.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Exar was the last of the ancients and their teachings, their initiation as a DLOTS..

You clearly don't know jack.
You can't just take your own interpretation of the meaning of the term 'Ancient Sith' in this thread and place it above ours', especially considering that our interpretation of the meaning of the term is the general term and clearly the creator of the thread's interpreatation of the meaning, whilst yours' is just foolish.
And believe it or not, it seems that the last force-user to learn sith magic to our knowledge is in fact Lumiya. Not sure about the new sith order in Legacy.