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I fine examply of why I don't believe in christianity.

Try and tell me why praying to jesus is allowed.

Because Jesus isn't dead. Duh.

...

What a stupid question.

I didn't know contact with the dead was forbidden. I see my grandfather all of the time....he comes to check up on me and my grandmother now and then. He's been dead 3 years. I contact dead people a lot...I've never been told it was wrong...not even by my church leaders.

Ok, you need to have a chat with your church leaders.

Because my Bible says in Deuteronomy 18:12 "0r a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a NECROMANCER"

Also see Isaiah 8:19

Necromancer is the old Testament term for communicating the dead.

The ghost your seeing is not of your grandfather. But of some kind of demonic force. 2 Corinthians 11:14 that Satan is transformed into an angel of light. What your seeing is not your grandfather but is a deceptive trick of Satan. In Exodus 7 the same wonders Aaron did the magicians of the land did also. God also says in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 to beware of false prophets and people that do signs and wonders. Not that your follow a false prophet but the fact remains that satan and his followers can do signs and wonders too. My advise to you is to test the spirit. Next time you see your "grandfather" ask him to say the words "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and he died on the cross for our sins and he lives again". I gurantee you he will not be able to say those words.

Not all miracles and signs and wonders are of God.

God makes it very clear in Luke 16:26 that the dead in hell or in heaven cannot come out from their place. There is an impassible seperation between the after-life and this world.

indoctrinated bullshit.....................man the more I see and hear religious people the more I like snakes

Exactly. The whole "Ghosts are demons" things is a sack of bullshit!

And don't you ever call my questions stupid, you ass.

No need to call him an ass for that.

Because Christians believe that Jesus is an Avatar of god. So, technically he is ever lasting and thus it isn't praying to the dead.

Uh-oh, someone's been watching too much Constantine.


First of all, according to Christians Jesus isn't dead, he died but then he rose from the dead, he came back to life. He then went directly to Heaven, he didn't die.

However, it is a fair question. Praying is a form of contact and I've met hundreds of Christians who pray to saints.

I think it's a Christian ideal to nudge out ancestor worship and rituals involving the dead that didn't fit church doctrine. It's as simple as that.

Now what I want to know is: When Christ did an exorcism and he sent the spirits of the demons into nearby hogs... WTF was he thinking?

Originally posted by Wesker
WTF was he thinking?

mmmmmmm...bacon.....

Originally posted by Punker69
Because Jesus isn't dead. Duh.

If Jesus didn't die, then he didn't die for your sins.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If Jesus didn't die, then he didn't die for your sins.

Died and rose again.

Originally posted by Echuu
Died and rose again.


I know the correct Christian answer, but I didn't know why Punker69 put it the way he did.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know the correct Christian answer, but I didn't know why Punker69 put it the way he did.

Originally posted by Punker69
Because my Bible says in Deuteronomy 18:12 "0r a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a NECROMANCER"

The ghost your seeing is not of your grandfather. But of some kind of demonic force.. This is a common Pentecostal view of demons are everywhere unfortunately. And who's to say it wasn't really her grandfather. There are many people who say they've seen people that have passed on. They never did anyone harm or evil. You can't blame everything you don't understand on the devil, that's just medieval thinking. We know that energy cannot be destroyed, but changes form, so who's to say. If her grandfather brings her comfort, then I say it's a good thing. There are many things we don't know that is beyond our reasoning and these bodies. It's best to keep an open mind.

Originally posted by Darth Nepulis
Exactly. The whole "Ghosts are demons" things is a sack of bullshit!

And don't you ever call my questions stupid, you ass.

Your question was stupid . Anyone who knows the slightest thing about Christianity would know the correct answer.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know the correct Christian answer, but I didn't know why Punker69 put it the way he did.

He died and rose again. What do you mean? What way did I put it?

Originally posted by debbiejo
This is a common Pentecostal view of demons are everywhere unfortunately. And who's to say it wasn't really her grandfather. There are many people who say they've seen people that have passed on. They never did anyone harm or evil. You can't blame everything you don't understand on the devil, that's just medieval thinking. We know that energy cannot be destroyed, but changes form, so who's to say. If her grandfather brings her comfort, then I say it's a good thing. There are many things we don't know that is beyond our reasoning and these bodies. It's best to keep an open mind.

Its not medieval thinking. Its Biblical thinking. Ok lets look at it from the standpoint that her grandfather is in hell. Hell is a place of torture. Something that the people in hell are going to want to leave when they please. Where's the punishment in hell if you can wander around as you please. The verse in look is an excellent example of the wide gap that seperates the afterlife, paradise, and earth.

Originally posted by Punker69
...He died and rose again. What do you mean? What way did I put it?

You said he wasn't dead, that sounds more like what an Islamic person would say, not a Christian.

Originally posted by Punker69

Its not medieval thinking. Its Biblical thinking. Ok lets look at it from the standpoint that her grandfather is in hell. Hell is a place of torture. Something that the people in hell are going to want to leave when they please. Where's the punishment in hell if you can wander around as you please. The verse in look is an excellent example of the wide gap that seperates the afterlife, paradise, and earth. What I mean by medieval was that when we don't understand something we automatically blame it on Satan or demons. And scripture never says hell is a place or torture. Hell/Sheol only mean death, nothing more.

Cut off everything before the comma and you have a question without rational answers.

Originally posted by debbiejo
What I mean by medieval was that when we don't understand something we automatically blame it on Satan or demons. And scripture never says hell is a place or torture. Hell/Sheol only mean death, nothing more.

Dont take my word for it. Like I said. The Bible says to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not. I told the person that the next time they see the spirit they should ask them to profess belief in Jesus Christ. Demons cannot do that. I gurantee you the spirit will do no such thing.

Read the verse in Luke. The rich man told Abraham to have mercy on him and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue "for I am tormented in this flame"

How much plainer do you need it?

Originally posted by Punker69
Dont take my word for it. Like I said. The Bible says to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not. I told the person that the next time they see the spirit they should ask them to profess belief in Jesus Christ. Demons cannot do that. I gurantee you the spirit will do no such thing.

Read the verse in Luke. The rich man told Abraham to have mercy on him and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue "for I am tormented in this flame"

How much plainer do you need it? That was like a parable story, not real.

Originally posted by debbiejo
This is a common Pentecostal view of demons are everywhere unfortunately.


And who's to say it wasn't really her grandfather.

Sorry but that is absolutely preposterous and a fallacy. Don't assume that every Christian church believes that just because you were unfortunately apart of one that did.


It very well could be her grandfather's soul we just don't know.

Originally posted by debbiejo
That was like a parable story, not real.

God gives us parables to illustrate moral truths.They speak directly at critical issues.

Then Jesus said, 'He who has ears to hear, let him hear.' When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.' (Mark 4:9-12)

Originally posted by Echuu
It very well could be her grandfather's soul we just don't know.

Go read the Bible and find out for yourself. And yes ALOT of Christians believe the same way I do.

Because Jesus isn't dead. simple as that...

To dispute Punker, demons do believe in Jesus Christ and tremble (somewhere in James). But in his support, if hell was not a place of absolute horror, why would the demons that Jesus cast out rather be sent into the pigs than back to the Abyss. Hell is the absolute abscence of God. Without God there can only be death, pain, and suffering (Jesus says he is the life), and no good can exist in hell. Remember that Satan rules in hell and his pleasure comes from our sufferring.

Originally posted by Punker69
Its not medieval thinking. Its Biblical thinking.

Basically the same thing.



Why does her grandfather have to be in hell? Why cant you assume that he's in heaven and wandering around freely?

Because the idea of heaven being a place people can leave wasn't in the book, therefore it must not be true according to any bonafide Christian. Of course, Jesus never shits in the Bible, but I assume he can. Maybe people shouldn't be so literal with the book.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Basically the same thing.



Why does her grandfather have to be in hell? Why cant you assume that he's in heaven and wandering around freely?

Same thing. I wasn't assuming he was in hell just taking that standpoint for my anology. It works the same way if he was in paradise.

Originally posted by Wesker
Because the idea of heaven being a place people can leave wasn't in the book, therefore it must not be true according to any bonafide Christian. Of course, Jesus never shits in the Bible, but I assume he can. Maybe people shouldn't be so literal with the book.

Lazarus couldnt leave heaven to put a dip of water on the rich mans tongue. He called it a "great gulf" that was impassable and seperated them.

Originally posted by The Disagreer
Remember that Satan rules in hell and his pleasure comes from our sufferring. That is not in scripture. Satan is NOT in hell and no where does it say there's going to be tortures.

Originally posted by debbiejo
That is not in scripture. Satan is NOT in hell and no where does it say there's going to be tortures.

Some of these people have never read all of the bible.

Originally posted by debbiejo
That is not in scripture. Satan is NOT in hell and no where does it say there's going to be tortures.

Hell is a holding place until final judgement for sinners. Then Satan, his demons, and hell is going to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Hell is a place of torture. Just like the Lake of Fire. Are you guys even reading the scriptures about the rich man and the begger? The rich man asked Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch his tongue because "I burn". How much plainer does it need to be?

Originally posted by debbiejo
This is a common Pentecostal view of demons are everywhere unfortunately. And who's to say it wasn't really her grandfather. There are many people who say they've seen people that have passed on. They never did anyone harm or evil.


The prescence of a demon (especially in the form of a family member) may not necessarily be to cause hurt or evil.

It can distract her, lead her astray, and cause her to not believe in the Lord, ..... which I'm guessing, someone may have been trying to share with her in the recent past.


The devil hates that stuff,... she may become a powerfull Christian leader some day, and Satan would love to have her spinning in circles, not sure about heaven/hell/ angels/demons/ ... "is there a God", etc.....

Exactly what he said. I recommend the Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis to anyone wishing to understand how Satan influences our lives without seeming purely evil.

Originally posted by Punker69
Your question was stupid .

Knock that shit off. I don't call your questions stupid so don't you DARE call mine stupid. Are you that 13 year old that got banned for being underage? If so, I wont even bother talking to you. Your age is proof of just how narrow-minded and

It's a fair question.

You said Jesus isn't dead, then he didn't die from your sins.

If he 'rose again' then that to me is what I call 'the living-dead' and therefore is dead.

Then what of people that have been considered medically dead and suddenly return to life. Are these people dead as well.
No. Jesus did die so that we can be forgiven and rose from the dead to provide us freedom from sin for the "The wages of sin is death" (somewhere in Psalms). If Jesus rose from the dead then he defeated sin and we can as well if we live by the Holy Spirit. Sorry for going off topic.

Of course, thats if you believe in heaven and hell etc., I believe I have more of a chance of seeing a night rainbow with elves and gremlins dancing on top of it than there is a heaven/hell.

Originally posted by The Disagreer
Then what of people that have been considered medically dead and suddenly return to life. Are these people dead as well.


Jesus was wrapped up in bandages and placed in a tomb for three days, if he wasn't dead I am sure he would've died during that three days or someone who have noticed he was alive while being wrapped in bandages...

Originally posted by Punker69
Because Jesus isn't dead. Duh.


Show me Jesus and prove he ain't dead. If he died on that cross, he stayed dead. Dead as a doornail in that fancy cave they dumped him in when he bled to death.

Originally posted by finti
indoctrinated bullshit.....................man the more I see and hear religious people the more I like snakes

Why? I assume 50% of this statement to be correct.

Originally posted by Punker69
What a stupid question.

All you idiots saying 'this is a stupid question' are foolish.

Give a good for reason to why my question is so stupid.
Ass...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Why? I assume 50% of this statement to be correct.


Paranormal investigaters have complied research on cases about demons and normal spirits, the stories they have on ghosts is far move outweighed than demons, If you statement is true, there would be a lot larger number of reported demon sightings.

Any moron who has ever heard of Christianity knows that we believe Jesus to alive and well.

So really Darth Nepulis your question is pretty pointless.

Of course from your point of view Jesus is dead so the question is not pointless to you... but no one ever said your point of view was the point of view we Christians have.

You see? This arugment could go on forever with neither of us convincing the other.

Originally posted by Makedde
Show me Jesus and prove he ain't dead. If he died on that cross, he stayed dead. Dead as a doornail in that fancy cave they dumped him in when he bled to death.

Go read a bible.

Originally posted by Darth Nepulis
Knock that shit off. I don't call your questions stupid so don't you DARE call mine stupid. Are you that 13 year old that got banned for being underage? If so, I wont even bother talking to you. Your age is proof of just how narrow-minded and

It's a fair question.

You said Jesus isn't dead, then he didn't die from your sins.

If he 'rose again' then that to me is what I call 'the living-dead' and therefore is dead.

*sigh*. You think bringing my age is going to give you some kind of advantage? Keep lowering your maturity level.

And yes I did get banned for being underage. Dont talk to me. I could care less.

Like I said, your question is stupid. Any athiest who hasn't even read the Bible could give you a correct answer. I along with others already have so why is this topic still going on.

He DIED. On the cross. Thats when he DIED for our sins. He rose again because he's God and couldn't exactly stay dead huh. The fact that he lives doesn't change the fact that he did DIE. And at that point of time he DIED for our sins. Get it? Jeez even toddlers get the concept.

Originally posted by Darth Nepulis
I fine examply of why I don't believe in christianity.

Try and tell me why praying to jesus is allowed. Man you guys must really hate Christianity...anyway Jesus ROSE from the dead. That means he resurrected himself. That means he's ALIVE.

Originally posted by Punker69
*sigh*. You think bringing my age is going to give you some kind of advantage? Keep lowering your maturity level.

And yes I did get banned for being underage. Dont talk to me. I could care less.

Like I said, your question is stupid. Any athiest who hasn't even read the Bible could give you a correct answer. I along with others already have so why is this topic still going on.

He DIED. On the cross. Thats when he DIED for our sins. He rose again because he's God and couldn't exactly stay dead huh. The fact that he lives doesn't change the fact that he did DIE. And at that point of time he DIED for our sins. Get it? Jeez even toddlers get the concept.

But you said before he didn't die.

Mithra rose again too.............He thought of it first.

Originally posted by Darth Nepulis
But you said before he didn't die.

I said he isn't dead.

Originally posted by Punker69
I said he isn't dead.

If he isn't dead, he didn't die, but he should be dead my now.

I feel like I am arguing with a bunch of pesky 2 year olds.

Originally posted by Punker69
I feel like I am arguing with a bunch of pesky 2 year olds.

I wish.

OK to make Punker happy We'll say Jesus died and rose again just as scripture said, just like Mithra.....Since Mithras did it first shouldn't we be worshiping him.

Originally posted by Punker69
I feel like I am arguing with a bunch of pesky 2 year olds.

That is how arguments go. If you don't like it you can leave. No one's making you reply.

Originally posted by debbiejo
OK to make Punker happy We'll say Jesus died and rose again just as scripture said, just like Mithra.....Since Mithras did it first shouldn't we be worshiping him.

Thank you. I dont think the conversation was originally about what everyone thinks is really true but just about why Christians do a certain thing. And the fact is because the Bible tells us he's not dead. End of story.

Originally posted by BackFire
...

My sentiments exactly.

I am not Christian, but I was. This is no longer my POV.

Praying to Jesus is basically the same as praying to God, since (not sure about this) they are one and the same. This means that you are not praying to a dead person, you are praying to an avatar of reality's creator. That is why praying to Jesus is not forbidden.
As for people trying to contact the dead, that is just human nature; a human can't help but break rules and struggle against restrictions. Jesus could, because he wasn't necessarily human. was he?

Originally posted by Punker69
. And the fact is because the Bible tells us he's not dead. End of story. But the Bible has been edited and there were many other writing that weren't included in it.......Now, if you read all the other writings then come up with your view that would be different.

Originally posted by debbiejo
But the Bible has been edited and there were many other writing that weren't included in it.......Now, if you read all the other writings then come up with your view that would be different.
And those writings weren't included because they were "lost".

Originally posted by debbiejo
But the Bible has been edited and there were many other writing that weren't included in it.......Now, if you read all the other writings then come up with your view that would be different.

Like I said, this wasn't a question about the Bibles truth. Just why Christians do a certain thing. If you want to make it into that than by all means, do. But im done replying to this thread.

Um... Catholics pray to saints who are all unequivocally mortals now dead...

Thats wrong. We're supposed to pray to Jesus. Not his saints.

Originally posted by KingDubya
And those writings weren't included because they were "lost". Not all, they just were not quite so popular.........

And I certainly don't think it hurts to pray to Jesus or saints, because it doesn't really matter, what matters is your heart and your intention and what you are praying for....not begging and stuff.....but goodness to mankind.........man that sounds sappy doesn't it. I myself pray all through the day in my head....always talking and giving thanks and gratitude.......The more I do this, the more good seems to come my way....

Originally posted by debbiejo
What I mean by medieval was that when we don't understand something we automatically blame it on Satan or demons. And scripture never says hell is a place or torture. Hell/Sheol only mean death, nothing more.
Sheol/Hades is the place of the Dead, The Kingdom of Shadows. Gehenna/Infernus is burning Hell -
an incinerator to get rid of the hardened sinners. But the Vulgata is confusing them because of a wrong translation of "Hades". "Hades" is
translated as "Infernus". It should have been translated as "Pluto"/"Regnum Plutonis"/"Regnum Mortium". Because of this wrong translation Vulgata:Rev.20.14 says that Infernus shall be thrown into the firelake burning with brimstone. That firelake IS Hell, but you cannot throw Hell into Hell, so that's why the roman catholics invented Purgatory.
Purgatory is non-existant and superfluous, because Jesus Christ died on the cross (and was resurected ca. 36 hours later) for our sins, and NOTHING MORE IS NEEDED! In reality it is the Kingdom of the Dead and Shadows that is thrown into Hell. We protestants found out that more than 500 years ago, but a lot of people - even in protestant countries -
are still confusing the place of the Dead with Hell.

Do Mary and the Apostles pray for me? Should I ask them to pray for me? What is the problem with asking the dead to pray for me?

Mary and the apostles do not pray for or intercede for people, and they are not our mediators. Jesus is our Intercessor, He prays for us (i.e. us believers), and Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity. No where in the Bible are we instructed to talk to dead people in prayer. Talking to the dead is called necromancy, and God forbids the practice of necromancy.

Mary is not divine and you should never pray to her. It is egregiously unscriptural to pray to anyone other than God in the Name of Jesus. Mary was simply a vessel to that God chose to bring His Son into the world so that He could redeem humanity from the wages of their sins (i.e. the second death in the Lake of Fire), so that we could be brought back to God and receive eternal life.


http://www.bible.ca/cath-overview-false-teaching.htm (Overview of how Catholic faith contradicts the Bible)

http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm (Are Catholics Christian?)

http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html (Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?)

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/rcc2-pray.htm (To Whom Do Catholics Pray?)

There's only one way to stop this contact:

http://loljesus.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/ghostbuster-loljesus.jpg

Who ya gonna call!??!

Godbustas!

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Do Mary and the Apostles pray for me? Should I ask them to pray for me? What is the problem with asking the dead to pray for me?

Mary and the apostles do not pray for or intercede for people, and they are not our mediators. Jesus is our Intercessor, He prays for us (i.e. us believers), and Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity. No where in the Bible are we instructed to talk to dead people in prayer. Talking to the dead is called necromancy, and God forbids the practice of necromancy.

Mary is not divine and you should never pray to her. It is egregiously unscriptural to pray to anyone other than God in the Name of Jesus. Mary was simply a vessel to that God chose to bring His Son into the world so that He could redeem humanity from the wages of their sins (i.e. the second death in the Lake of Fire), so that we could be brought back to God and receive eternal life.



Jesus was just a man, and was not divine. This is a common human mistake. We like to make heroes out of people who we admire, and making someone a god is just a higher form of hero. There are those who believe that Buddha was divine, but he was just a man also. To pray to anything outside of your own Buddha hood is just poring your energy out to someone or something that cannot use your power.

Originally posted by BlackC@
I fine examply of why I don't believe in christianity.

Try and tell me why praying to jesus is allowed.
Man, you suck as a person.

1. Jesus is alive (he, you know, rose from the grave and all).
2. Jesus is God. The Bible explicitly permits one to pray to God.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Man, you suck as a person.

1. Jesus is alive (he, you know, rose from the grave and all).
2. Jesus is God. The Bible explicitly permits one to pray to God.

Jesus died over 2000 years ago. Please get over it.

Jesus is not a human duh!!!!!!

The holy trinity?! He's part of it so praying to him is praying to the trinity and that's the spirit and fahter aswell as the son!

That is actually quite funny.

It isn't forbidden to have contact with the dead.

People pray to dead loved ones all of the time.
People visit graves as well.
Not to mention Sylvia Brown does it all of the time.

Anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

Maybe the dead have lots to say today.