Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

one has near unlimited power cosmic, the other has nearly unlimited magic. who takes it?

This is tough. Agamotto fought Galactus to a stand still, but Galactus was hungry, and they were in Agamotto's realm.
I would imagine that Shuma Gorath is almost as powerful as Agamotto.
If this is true, since Crom was able to defeat Shuma Gorath, that would put Crom at the top of the Old God, possibly Skyfather tier.
And place him closer to Galactus.
If it is a full-power G, in regular Marvel Universe, I say he wins. If they are in Shuma's realm, I think Shuma would in.

Big G probably has more total power, but he also has a well-documented history of trouble with magic.

Thus, I'll agree for the most part with what Horrificus said.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Big G probably has more total power, but he also has a well-documented history of trouble with magic.

Thus, I'll agree for the most part with what Horrificus said.

Yeah. It almost seems like he looks down his nose at magic so much, that he doesn't give it ANY respect, even when going up against serious opponents.
Maybe he can't understand energies from the non-physical universe or something.
But, I agree that he probably has more raw power. He just doesn't know what to do with these guys.

i think galactus was womping agomotto since all he could do was reform (agommotto) while galactus just kept destroying his new forms, he wasnt doing that great offensivly, besides that im not sure who would win on one hand galactus has been shown to eat the celestial home world in the future yes a future tied to this one, but shuma got beaten by one celestial host.

Galactus was NOT whomping on Agamotto. That was his perception, but as Strange pointed out, it was in Agamotto's realm, and Agamotto can't be hurt. So how exactly was he whomping someone that he couldn't hurt physically?

ummm he was not even able to defend himself i call that womping, every time i come back and get blown up id be like DARN IT AGAIN?

But as with Agamotto, he did it because he wanted to. He took whatever form he chose. Note that Strange didn't even hint at Galactus being able to win:

"Even Galactus can underestiate a foe. Because Agamotto's chosen, just now, to resemble various forms of caterpillar, he dismissed him as unworthy. Yet, the wrold-devourer is out of his element here--and IN Agamotto's--and that might just make the difference!"

"Galactus, meanwhile, tries blasting his foe to smithereens--but the physical approach will never work. He'll soon realize that Agamotto isn't really an 'insectod'--or even a corporeal being that can be hurt. Those are sinply guises he puts on when he's in the mood--not unlike his current speech pattern."

Oshtur and Hoggoth: "We would not see you lower yourself to the arrogant violence of a Galactus."

If my scanner stops cutting up, I'll post the pages.

You can't seriously suggest that Strange can hold Galactus, but Agamotto can't beat him? As I said before, Agamotto does what he does for reasons of his own. But seeing as how Galactus power could not destroy something that is essentially not physical, how was he going to defeat him? Keep blasting him?

and can you prove that agomotto could have defeated galactus? I mean his universe ok so what galactus fought mephesto in his universe and still won after he started eating it for all you know he could have and should have done the same thing here, i didnt hear agomotto bring him to his neas all that is, is out lasting your enemy cause you cant die, slade could do that to colossus if you take away his weapons, he could just keep comming back over and over till colossus was to tired to fight back but with out his weapons all he can really do is evade collosus yet not really hurt him.

Agamotto was fighting a hungry Galactus not a normal or Full Galactus, If he was if would be a different story, but still Agamotto in his relam is all powerful he would stalemate Galactus regardless, Galactus still has probles with beings that have magic and Agamotto is high on the food chain in that department, and he would have called upon limtless amount of magic to fight Galactus if he truly wanted to.

Nor can be Juggernaut, but still he gets his ass kicked on a regular basis.

You certainly can't use Mephisto as a standard. I mean who HASN'T defeated him in his own realm? Even the F4 did that. And I have a feeling that the big G was about to get his butt handed to him right when the Vishanti intervened. One can never "prove" who would win a fight that ends, but my money'd be on Agamotto. He knows a lot more about Galactus than Galactus knows about him for starters. The fact that he showed no sign of tiredness or strain, coupled with the fact that mystics throughout the multiverse draw upon his power without there being any lessening of it for his own personal use, I'd wager that he'd have knocked Galactus back to 616 with his hooka.

that doesnt mean that he would have won the battle by his own power he'd have won maybe if he waited galactus out to be drained of his power then he'd womp him. but in my opinion agomotto cant beat galactus going at him head on.

Agamotto in his realm is unbeatable, Agamotto was laying blows on Galactus that made dr.strange say damn. Even though it was hungry Galactus a normal Galactus would have been a better match up but still Agamottto could have called upon more magical powers to fight Galactus and he probale could have beaten him. Galactus was hitting Agamotto with everything it didn't even phase agamotto it was pissing him off even more that's when the other vishanti stomp the battle.

Originally posted by Mider
that doesnt mean that he would have won the battle by his own power he'd have won maybe if he waited galactus out to be drained of his power then he'd womp him. but in my opinion agomotto cant beat galactus going at him head on.

They where fighting head up, are talikng about. Agamotto is one of the most powerfu/oldest magical beings in the universe. Agamotto was about to cut lose on Galactus before The other Vishanti appeared and stopped the fight. The samething would've happen if Galactus goes into Shuma-Groth relam.

Big G

I think a lot of people underestimate Shuma. He only lost to crom because he is severely weakened by universal rules upon entering an unconquered dimension. But even so unlike Dormammu or Mephisto he has conquered thousands of dimensions where they have struggled at times just to hold one. Dr. Strange amped to hell and back was nearly destroyed just entering the realm of Shuma-Gorath. coming from a man who has tooled a backed inbetweener with contemptuous ease thats saying a lot. It also took THE single greatest black magic spell Strange had ever used which essentially made him Shuma-Gorath on top of the amps that he already had. A power like that would in theory allow him to challenge anyone similar to protege's power of making you as powerful as your opponent +your own strengths.

Also aforementioned Galactus kryptonite is basically magic which he looks down on. I always found this a bit strange considering that Galactus is the amalgation of Galan and the previous eternity and Eternity is considered to be the ultimate mystic force for the universe.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Eternity is considered to be the ultimate mystic force for the universe. that has been retconned to being the Vishanti, by the Living Tribunals word himself. zop has posted the scan many times

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
that has been retconned to being the Vishanti, by the Living Tribunals word himself. zop has posted the scan many times I know that but the retcon is relatively recent and for a good chunk of Galactus's history the fact was that he was an inherintly mystic entity. Also eternity is still no joke in mystic terms.

Originally posted by Uriel005
coming from a man who has tooled a backed inbetweener with contemptuous ease thats saying a lot.
You mean, who had to call for help against Inbetweener and said it was the hardest battle of his life?

So, basically, the opposite of that?

Are we talking about when strange was backed by bother master order and lord chaos or is there another event I'm not thinking of.

Yeah, that's the time.

They also fought a second time, but IB actually won that time...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, that's the time.

They also fought a second time, but IB actually won that time... Strange has generally fought his top foes with the backing of high end deities and I generally consider it so commonplace that you may as well call it a standard equip like batmans utilility belt except rather than gadgets Strange calls on gods.

Shuma Gorath is tough. Even the Vishanti didn't want to fight him a second time. But I'd say Galactus wins as long as he's not starving.

Who has Shuma fought really?

Galactus has at least gone up against the Inbetweener, the Galactus Engine, Thanos with the IG, Agamotto, etc.... He's going up against a high end skyfather soon too so let's see how that turns out.

I'm giving this to Galactus for the overwhelming majority unless Gorath has done something stupendous on panel that I've missed.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Strange has generally fought his top foes with the backing of high end deities and I generally consider it so commonplace that you may as well call it a standard equip like batmans utilility belt except rather than gadgets Strange calls on gods.
OK, you can consider it that but it's completely wrong. Strange was able to summon Chaos & Order because they needed to intervene to preserve the balance... they didn't just come because he felt like it.

Saying he did it with "contemptuous ease" is just false as well, since he was getting his ass kicked for 90% of the battle. Have you actually read that issue, or just saw some scans?

Galactus ftw

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Galactus ftw

shuma is the supreme being or one of the supreme beings of the many angled ones, the guys who created the cancerverse.....

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
shuma is the supreme being or one of the supreme beings of the many angled ones, the guys who created the cancerverse.....
so he was one of many people required to make a universe? would that not make him sub-universal? galactus level?

.

Originally posted by King Kandy
so he was one of many people required to make a universe? would that not make him sub-universal? galactus level?

The cancerverse was a multiversal threat

Originally posted by King Kandy
OK, you can consider it that but it's completely wrong. Strange was able to summon Chaos & Order because they needed to intervene to preserve the balance... they didn't just come because he felt like it.

Saying he did it with "contemptuous ease" is just false as well, since he was getting his ass kicked for 90% of the battle. Have you actually read that issue, or just saw some scans?

He didn't summon them he was using their powers maybe you should read that fight again.
Chaos and Order don't need to intervene or even if they had to like your saying they would have done a lot earlier in that storyline considering the context of what they were fighting over.

As for this fight
Galactus was well fed against agamotto by himself in his realm and still couldn't kill him.
Shuma>>>>>>>The Vishanti as a whole by a lot
To kill Shuma you would have to technically become what he is and Galactus really isn't up to that.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
The cancerverse was a multiversal threat

It may have well been but who has Gorath ever fought that was in the same league as the beings Galactus has gone up against?

Originally posted by SasuOna
He didn't summon them he was using their powers maybe you should read that fight again.
Chaos and Order didn't need to intervene or even if they had to like your saying they would have done a lot earlier in that storyline considering. Maybe you should read it again.

Originally posted by Mindset
Maybe you should read it again.

hmmm okay..........lets see

He says "Now I shall call upon the might of Chaos and Order Together" and then mentions how its the power of the Inbetweener's being while hes defeating him.

http://i.imgur.com/dZA9d.jpg
Conclusion
Mindset and Kandy were mistaken about Dr Strange yet again.

I thought Galactus was damn near starving to death when he took on Agamotto in his realm?

Originally posted by SasuOna
hmmm okay..........lets see

He says "Now I shall call upon the might of Chaos and Order Together" and then mentions how its the power of the Inbetweener's being while hes defeating him.

http://i.imgur.com/dZA9d.jpg
Conclusion
Mindset and Kandy were mistaken about Dr Strange yet again. What was I mistaken about?

Originally posted by Harbinger
I thought Galactus was damn near starving to death when he took on Agamotto in his realm? no. galactus actually needed the eye of agamotto to invoke his near omniscience.

Originally posted by Mindset
What was I mistaken about?

That Strange summoned Lord Chaos and Master Order and they defeated the Inbetweener which is what Kandy was saying.

When did I say that?

Originally posted by Harbinger
I thought Galactus was damn near starving to death when he took on Agamotto in his realm?

He wasn't yet Nova said in the story that Galactus hadn't eaten recently and that she had no idea when he was going to require additional energy.

Originally posted by Utrigita
He wasn't yet Nova said in the story that Galactus hadn't eaten recently and that she had no idea when he was going to require additional energy.

When was this? I don't recall. Secondly, Galactus hasn't eaten doesn't mean he is hungry. I think this is where most fans are in disagreement. It's like any comment made where Galactus hasn't eaten = hungry. Galactus just ate = well fed Galactus. Most of the time Galactus is at his normal level, neither hungry nor well fed. Galactus during that story was in no way hungry or weakened. Even when his ship was destroyed, he had enough power to reconstitute himself and his passengers from death along with his ship. He wasn't weakened in any state at all; their fight was wrecking havoc to Aggamotto's dimension along with the neighboring dimensions. This is by far one of Galactus' best combat feat, above his fights with Tenebrous and Tyrant. Only his fight with Mephisto is close, even then it wasn't wrecking other dimensions.

Also, Shuma Gorath takes this. SG was above Mephisto and Satanish. His fight was wrecking other dimensions, including Hellstorm's domain. Galactus was stalemating Mephisto and Agamotto in their fight. SG is above both; I see him beating Galactus.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
When was this? I don't recall. Secondly, Galactus hasn't eaten doesn't mean he is hungry. I think this is where most fans are in disagreement. It's like any comment made where Galactus hasn't eaten = hungry. Galactus just ate = well fed Galactus. Most of the time Galactus is at his normal level, neither hungry nor well fed. Galactus during that story was in no way hungry or weakened. Even when his ship was destroyed, he had enough power to reconstitute himself and his passengers from death along with his ship. He wasn't weakened in any state at all; their fight was wrecking havoc to Aggamotto's dimension along with the neighboring dimensions. This is by far one of Galactus' best combat feat, above his fights with Tenebrous and Tyrant. Only his fight with Mephisto is close, even then it wasn't wrecking other dimensions.

Also, Shuma Gorath takes this. SG was above Mephisto and Satanish. His fight was wrecking other dimensions, including Hellstorm's domain. Galactus was stalemating Mephisto and Agamotto in their fight. SG is above both; I see him beating Galactus.

IIRC you posted the scan concerning it, last time someone asked.

And I'm merely pointing out that Galactus energy level in the act is a largely unknown factor, because Nova is incapable of giving us a estimate on when he last devoured a planet. I'm then pointing out that Galactus obviously wasn't operating at a "I just devoured a planet level" Nova's statement taken into consideration, to suggest anything beyond that would be unsupported.

Nova's statement was just a warning to Strange telling him that although Galactus isn't hungry if he does grow hungry he would have to devour earth.
As for the fight
Agamotto was definitely doing something that was considered beneath any of the Vishanti when he decided to physically confront Galactus. In that storyline they inferred that together they were above him. So if Galactus was having a hard time with just one of them and failing to kill him.
Shuma would be on a completely different level of hard for Galactus to try and kill.

All this talk of him being hungry or not is besides the point.

Show me who Gorath has fought that was in the same league as the heavy hitters Galactus has gone up against and then we'll talk. Off the top of my head Gorath has NEVER faced another Demon Lord, Cosmic, or Abstract in a fight, ever.

Galactus has gone up against the Inbetweener, the Galactus Engine from the Cancerverse (that Celestials and other Cosmics ran from leaving him alone against it), Mephisto in his realm, Agamotto in his realm, humbled and then devoured ALL the Elders of the universe, etc..

On panel Galactus has tped an entire galaxy, destroyed an entire galaxy, and devours planets/stars as snacks.

and on panel dr strange with shumas power was accidently destroying many near by galaxies while holding back

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
and on panel dr strange with shumas power was accidently destroying many near by galaxies while holding back

Colossus that never happened. It was a Kaluu engaging in hyperbole. Nothing of the sort was shown on panel.

Originally posted by Utrigita
IIRC you posted the scan concerning it, last time someone asked.

And I'm merely pointing out that Galactus energy level in the act is a largely unknown factor, because Nova is incapable of giving us a estimate on when he last devoured a planet. I'm then pointing out that Galactus obviously wasn't operating at a "I just devoured a planet level" Nova's statement taken into consideration, to suggest anything beyond that would be unsupported.

What's I just devoured a planet level? Would you like to give an estimate? Because under starving conditions, Galactus was wrecking 3 solar systems. Is their ever been a well fed Galactus that fought afterwards so we can use as a measure? If he's well fed, then Galactus would be above his normal levels. Most of then time Galactus isn't going around well fed, that for Galactus is like an amp. It's like saying Superman didn't get a sun dip so he must be weak.

Originally posted by zopzop
All this talk of him being hungry or not is besides the point.

Show me who Gorath has fought that was in the same league as the heavy hitters Galactus has gone up against and then we'll talk. Off the top of my head Gorath has NEVER faced another Demon Lord, Cosmic, or Abstract in a fight, ever.

Galactus has gone up against the Inbetweener, the Galactus Engine from the Cancerverse (that Celestials and other Cosmics ran from leaving him alone against it), Mephisto in his realm, Agamotto in his realm, humbled and then devoured ALL the Elders of the universe, etc..

On panel Galactus has tped an entire galaxy, destroyed an entire galaxy, and devours planets/stars as snacks.

Where does it say the others ran? Because the book couldn't fit in the others in that close up panel it means they ran? Please. He didn't do anything to the Galactus Engine. And what did the GE do really? The IB that was getting owned by Strange? The IB got his butt handled by Galactus. Galactus could only draw stalemates against Agamotto and Mephisto. Arioch is a demon and so is Nightmare. Both was subordinates of SG. Even a disciple of Set invoking his name was getting stomped by Shuma Gorath.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Where does it say the others ran? Because the book couldn't fit in the others in that close up panel it means they ran? Please. He didn't do anything to the Galactus Engine. And what did the GE do really? The IB that was getting owned by Strange? The IB got his butt handled by Galactus. Galactus could only draw stalemates against Agamotto and Mephisto. Arioch is a demon and so is Nightmare. Both was subordinates of SG. Even a disciple of Set invoking his name was getting stomped by Shuma Gorath.

The others were fighting it for a while then it just shows Galactus agaisnt it solo. Surfer mentions if Galactus falls, that's it.

That Strange was stalemating the Living Tribunal and doing other crap that should be beyond his paygrade so what's your point?

Arioch is a demon with ZERO, ZILTCH, NADA on panel feats or victories. Nightmare has been put in a full nelson by Strange.

What disciple of Set are you referring to and what issue did this take place?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What's I just devoured a planet level? Would you like to give an estimate? Because under starving conditions, Galactus was wrecking 3 solar systems. Is their ever been a well fed Galactus that fought afterwards so we can use as a measure? If he's well fed, then Galactus would be above his normal levels. Most of then time Galactus isn't going around well fed, that for Galactus is like an amp. It's like saying Superman didn't get a sun dip so he must be weak.

You would find that it's a Galaxy he swept clean but that's beside the point since your exaggerating. We have no real idea on how different a Galactus on a fed level operate in comparison to a hungry Galactus, as you are perfectly well aware of (even though a Doom with the power of Galactus was capable of battling Pre Retcon Beyonder for a extended amount of time, so we have some idea on that powerlevel, but then again Reed said that Taa II was possibly the greatest energy source in the universe). The reason people in generel, as I see, choose a Fed Galactus is because then the argument that Galactus will depleet himself of energy relatively quickly in a fight is obsolete. That and the general idea that Galactus powerlevel rises as the feeds, as shown in the Pre Retcon Beyonder case.

Originally posted by SasuOna
He didn't summon them he was using their powers maybe you should read that fight again.
Chaos and Order don't need to intervene or even if they had to like your saying they would have done a lot earlier in that storyline considering the context of what they were fighting over.

As for this fight
Galactus was well fed against agamotto by himself in his realm and still couldn't kill him.
Shuma>>>>>>>The Vishanti as a whole by a lot
To kill Shuma you would have to technically become what he is and Galactus really isn't up to that.
How about you post the next two pages, where he describes WHY they helped him...

Originally posted by King Kandy
How about you post the next two pages, where he describes WHY they helped him...

This never happened and I'm starting to wonder if you even read the issue now.
The next two pages are about him explaining how the Inbetweener messed up the cosmic balance. The only mention of Lord Order and Master Chaos is in a narration box saying his spells are backed by their power.

Originally posted by zopzop
The others were fighting it for a while then it just shows Galactus agaisnt it solo. Surfer mentions if Galactus falls, that's it.

So it was never mentioned. Gotcha.



He never stalemated LT and need a few power boost just to fight SG. He didn't get any boost against IB. SG>IB




That's funny because you wanted demons and I gave you same names. Their demon lords and both were beneath SG. Strange put a full nelson on SG? No wait, he ran from SG in their first encounter and needed several power boost in their third. Their second was him begging a more power Sorcerror to fight for him.



Kulan Gath and his mate.

Originally posted by Utrigita
You would find that it's a Galaxy he swept clean but that's beside the point since your exaggerating. We have no real idea on how different a Galactus on a fed level operate in comparison to a hungry Galactus, as you are perfectly well aware of (even though a Doom with the power of Galactus was capable of battling Pre Retcon Beyonder for a extended amount of time, so we have some idea on that powerlevel, but then again Reed said that Taa II was possibly the greatest energy source in the universe). The reason people in generel, as I see, choose a Fed Galactus is because then the argument that Galactus will depleet himself of energy relatively quickly in a fight is obsolete. That and the general idea that Galactus powerlevel rises as the feeds, as shown in the Pre Retcon Beyonder case.

Doom with G was already retconned and even then Doom got handled easily. Dude, what's well fed Galactus? How I take it is Galactus is at his normal levels. Then there's Galactus after eating and a Galactus that's hungry. I guess what you're getting at is that normal Galactus = fed and weakened Galactus = has not fed. It's differences on how everybody believes Galactus' normal state is.

To me, him not having eaten doesn't mean he's weak. That's him at his normal levels. If he's in the pains of hunger and eats to satisfy it I would assume Galactus would be at his normal levels. Everybody likes to conclude that the guy not eaten means he's some how weak.

Shuma is a power drainer. He's not going to actively attack Galactus. Either way, is Galactus weak against magic? At the very least he doesn't function well against it. He certainly doesn't understand it.

He don't possess a "weakness" against it, but don't understand it's chaotic nature

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Doom with G was already retconned and even then Doom got handled easily. Dude, what's well fed Galactus? How I take it is Galactus is at his normal levels. Then there's Galactus after eating and a Galactus that's hungry. I guess what you're getting at is that normal Galactus = fed and weakened Galactus = has not fed. It's differences on how everybody believes Galactus' normal state is.

To me, him not having eaten doesn't mean he's weak. That's him at his normal levels. If he's in the pains of hunger and eats to satisfy it I would assume Galactus would be at his normal levels. Everybody likes to conclude that the guy not eaten means he's some how weak.

In what way? That Doom, according to what is shown in Spiderman Amazing, overpowered Beyonder. Or retconned into Doom not having the full force of Galactus power as it was mentioned in the handbook, from 97 I believe it was? Your jumping to conclusions, since that wasn't what I addressed in the first place.

You were asking what a planet devoured level was and when it have been seen and what it have been doing featwise etc. I answered that I, frankly, had no idea but based on the Beyonder incident it's plausible to assume that Galactus powerlevel rises as he feeds. Did I suggest in my post that I believe your above statement to be fact? No, I said that a fed Galactus is primarily used as I see it because then the argument that he is quickly depleted becomes invalid coupled with the general idea that Galactus, who has performed the majority of his feats while hungry, must be capable of doing even better when feed, because he can afford to expend more energy.

Nothing about any Fed Galactus = Normal, hungry Galactus = weak.

It was said,when Strange left earth with Galactus.by the Surfer and I think Nova.That they should leave right away,as big G hasn`t had a meal in a while.And the earth might start looking like a pretty good snack.Thats when Surfer hurrie`s things along ,and says Galactus we must find this threat,or the whole universe will be in danger.(during the beginning of IG2).

I dont understand y galan cant harm agamatto when he himself isn't a "physical" being

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I dont understand y galan cant harm agamatto when he himself isn't a "physical" being
That was only under Byrne and even there it was inconsistent.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And what did the GE do really? Killed Aegis outright and forced every Abstract present, save Galactus, to flee?

Galactus punts the loser back to his own realm.