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So I was thinking about the prophecy of the "One who will bring balance to the Force" and The DE series. Anakin was the Chosen One, as we all know, and in ROTJ he indeed brought balance to the force, but that is not all the prophecy stated. It said he would "Bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith."

Now in the DE series, Palpatine (Sidious) we learn is in fact not dead, and is quite alive and well (his spirit anyways). And is in fact more powerful then he was in ROTJ with his clone bodies. Now, isn't this a blatant contradiction of the entire SW movie saga? And would this not mean that Anakin was in fact not the Chosen One? As Sidious being alive means Anakin did not destroy the Sith at all, just depowered them for a time.

I don't know who actually killed Palpatine, but I don't think it was Luke, was it? (I thought it was Han or something...) If not then DE actually is saying that the prophecy was not even true, and that there is/ was, no Chosen One at all.

This had always bothered me, because not only does it completely contradict the movies, it also makes the movies seem completely irrelevant.

...Thoughts?

Meh, part of the reason I didn't like the whole concept of Dark Empire.

But still, Anakin destroyed his "original" form. The Sidious in Dark Empire is physically... is just a clone. You can argue that he wasn't an authentic Sith... just a copy.

No, but it was only clone BODIES that Palpatine was using, it was the real Palpatine's Spirit inhabiting the clone bodies. So its still the same Palpatine, not a copy.

Yeah, that always bothered me too. I think that's part of the reason why GL took that "It's a different universe from mine" approach. In any case, I suppose when you think about contradictions, the prophecy you can interprete any way you want (Which is what GL is notorious for), and unless it tries to say something like Mace Windu was a green skinned Yoda character with dreadlocks, there's no real "contradiction" in the strictest sense.

Sure there is, Lucas said Anakin was the Chosen One, who would "bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith". In ROTJ Lucas intended Anakin to fulfill this (and he did). DE contradicts it, because DE says he did not in fact destroy the Sith, and did not in fact bring balance to the Force.

Yeah, lucas has been horrible with his own "official" continuity.

DE was written long before any of this prophecy stuff was even concieved and When it came time for lucas to make a few billion more dollars he just said, "don't care".

All that stuff with licensing and carefully guarded continuity and he just tosses it out the window. The prophecy means squat, it's too vague. Besides destroying something doesn't mean there's not a trace of it left. New Orleans was destroyed and crazy people are still gonna rebuild it.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Sure there is, Lucas said Anakin was the Chosen One, who would "bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith". In ROTJ Lucas intended Anakin to fulfill this (and he did). DE contradicts it, because DE says he did not in fact destroy the Sith, and did not in fact bring balance to the Force.

Actually, as of the creation of DE, no contradiction. It was made in 1993-1994, dude. There was no prophecy then. This is just GL coming around and retconning shit because he doesn't pay attention to EU.

Right, be Lucas overrides EU, so when it was made it was fine, but now it contradicts the movies, which are of higher canon then EU. So the movies win, no matter when they are/ were made.

Lucas COULD decide to do a NJO type story arc (Post-ROTJ) and override all of JA/ DE/ NJO/ DN (say Eps. 7,8, and 9 for argument) and THAT would be the new official continuity, not the previously existing EU.

So with the creation of the PT, we now should be questioning how canon DE actually is.

When it was made does not give it higher canon then the movies.

Never said it was higher canon, just that it's ironic that Lucas gives official sanction to something and then ignores it in his future works.

Not really, Lucas does whatever he wants, its his story. He could go and decide to redo ANH tomorrow, and he could do it. He can do whatever he feels like. Its hardly "ironic".

But DE does now conflict the movies, so it should be downgraded in terms of overall SW continuity.

When GL gives official sanction, the EU authors involved know full well that that sanction is for a continuity that is separate from his own.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
When GL gives official sanction, the EU authors involved know full well that that sanction is for a continuity that is separate from his own.

Exactly. He doesn't particularly care for EU, and it really doesn't even fit in the same continuity; there are so many inconsistencies that it really makes it difficult to sort out fact from fiction.

It's difficult to apply DE and say it contradicts the movies, because a.) it didn't at the time and b.) it is an "alternate" and "expanded" universe.

So in a sense, the only real contradictions are in the eye of the beholder. I mean, unless a novel, game, or comic tries to totally retcon the movies, there's no glaring contradiction.

Yes. Besides also having their own unique continuity, anything from the movies also overrides anything contradicting in EU, inside the EU's own continuity. The movies have actually made significant parts of the EU incorrect.

So in this case, it is not possible for Anakin to not be the Chosen One, that is absolute and overriding. So any other explanation must be found to explain events that seem to suggest otherwise, and if the only option is that the story is now outside of any sort of proper continuity, then that must be done, as happened long ago with Splinter.

Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to have happened yet. I've never read an EU story that maintains Splinter in it's continuity. I also seriously doubt that the things that the PT made "invalid" are going to be ignored completely in the future.

.... guess I'm still waiting for the retcon.

But by the EU's own internal canon rules, these things are invalid, so all the EU continues to do when it acts like that is tie itself up in endless continuity messes.

I guess what they ought to do is just throw out the whole cannon/noncannon thing and just let the authors give us good stories.

Infinities baby!!!

What they ought to do is clean up the EU universe. Initially, no single individual kept tabs on it. That's why there's two books depicting the marriage of Han and Leia.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
What they ought to do is clean up the EU universe. Initially, no single individual kept tabs on it. That's why there's two books depicting the marriage of Han and Leia.

They should start by declaring NJO and DN non canon... both those horrendus series suck ass and deserve to die.

NJO had a few high points, but the way they dragged the series over.... I don't even remember how many books.... Yeah, most of it sucked.

The movies are in a different universe. In the movies, Anakin indeed was the chosen one.

But anything that was true in the movies is ALSO true in the EU is the point, DN, according to the EU's own published canon rules.

Personally, I don't think the answer is for EU to have a big retcon clear up. It has been tried before and it is just a mess.

I reckon the EU should drop having any form of canon at all. Each book, or series, should be seen as a different mirror of the SW universe, each containing its author's take on how they think things should be at a certain time and place in the mythology, and that shouldn't be binding on any other author or series at all, unless that author or series wishes it (e.g. for a sequel).

That is virtually how it is anyway, and it would sidestep all these continuity issues. Just say that there IS no continuity, and then enjoy the book.

If you do that...

-

DE could be set in a Star Wars universe where the final destruction of the Sith happened in a different way.

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NJO would not be a 'sequel storyline', it would simply be a series of books examing the concept of Luke becoming a superbeing and gaining new understanding in the background of a mass alien invasion.

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All those old Sith comics could be a look at a past where Sith had superpowers too.

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KOTOR would examine a scenario in the past where the Jedi were defunct, the Sith used Darth titles and progress depended on the choices of a couple of amnesiacs, one of which is worried about ther 'True' Sith.

-

All of these would not be binding on anything or anyone. It would just be an area the relevant authors wanted to explore, their own interpretation of a Star Wars concept. Just stories involving force powers and Jedi, baed upon the basic Star Wars concepts. After all, how many different King Arthur stories have there been? They use the same names and the same places but they are hardly the same thing.

There really is no value in trying to tie them all into a larger continuity, I feel.

(and as an added bonus, it would cut down these damn 'Versus' issues)

Good point Ush, I agree. EU is a big mess. Thats a pretty good idea, though I'm sure many EU fans would hate that idea.

But it would take FOREVER to sift through the near unlimited amount of EU and come up with what is N-canon and what is canon. It would take forever and would be a big mess cause other people would disagree with all the choices.

I think your idea would work perfectly though, completely untie all EU from everything, and make it so there is no true continuity to the EU SW.

Everything is just viewed on its own.

that's basically what I said, but more clearly.

Infinities baby!!

Infinities, though., is normally them trying to do stuff that is actively impossible and/or silly in a storyline sense- like having Vader vs. Maul, or exploring things that are very consciously 'What if?' scenarios. the name itself suggests parallel universes.

To say EU has no continuity at all is a bit different to that. Infinities is trying to be distinct from a continuity; this is shooting down the idea of there being one (or any value to one) in the first place.

Yeah, I get the difference, but if you throw out continuity, just about everything becomes what is now considered infinities. Like was said earlier, whole new vistas open for authors. What if becomes a very viable route for inspirations.

The what if of almost omnipotent jedi and sith has already been explored, but what if jedi and sith were more limited like what we've seen in the movies? What kind of EU would that make? What if Luke and Leia hadn't been siblings (ala Splinter of the Mind's Eye)? What great horizons could be explored if everything didn't have to be approved by Lucasfilm.

I don't see why Lucasfilm wouldn't have to approve it.

Infinities is still something that ius self-consciously oddball as a series, though. I think it blurs the idea to make an analogy by saying everything would be Infinities; people might actually think you meant it would all be Vader vs. Maul style stuff.

Its ME, I will bring balance to the force!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't see why Lucasfilm wouldn't have to approve it.

Infinities is still something that ius self-consciously oddball as a series, though. I think it blurs the idea to make an analogy by saying everything would be Infinities; people might actually think you meant it would all be Vader vs. Maul style stuff.

I was thinking more along the lines of the what-if type stuff.

They've actually done it a bit. A New Hope: Infinities explored what if Luke hadn't destroyed the death star. The Empire Strikes Back: Infinities explored what if Luke had died on Hoth. Return of the Jedi: Infinities explored what if they couldn't save Han at Jabba's Palace.

There are plenty more what-if's to be explored.

See, I think that kind of totally canon-breaking thing would still require its own label, like Infinities, even if things were being done as per my suggestion above.

I might be wrong, I dunno, but wasn't it Leia's kids that eventually destroyed Palpatine, Therefore, Anakin kind of fulfills the prophecy cos Leia's kids are obviously directly descended from him?!?!

I heard Han shot him.

It still makes no difference. His descendent's killing Palpatine still means he didn't do it himself, which means he didn't bring balance to the force, which means that DE shouldn't be in the internal EU canon.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
It still makes no difference. His descendent's killing Palpatine still means he didn't do it himself, which means he didn't bring balance to the force, which means that DE shouldn't be in the internal EU canon.
In a way it does. If there was no Anakin then there would have been no Luke or Leia. Also Anakin was the chosen one. He did bring balance to the force Killing Palpatine. But as we should know. Balance will only last so long. Eventualy it becomes imbalanced. The initial imbalance was there were to me Jedi. The Light side had it all tipping on their side. In order to balance it out the Jedi had to be wiped out. Leaving 2 powerful force users on both sides. Obi-Wan + Yoda vs Anakan + Palpatine. When Obi-Wan was kill the force become imbalanced again. Luke's power at that time was not enough to tip the scales. After Luke was trained by Yoda it balanced out again. However when Yoda died it became imbalanced again. When Vader took out Palpatine he balanced it out. Even when he died it remained balanced. The reason behind that is simple. Exar Kun's spirit was still on Yavin 4. When he wa eventualy defeated it created another imbalance. Thus Palpatine was allowed by the force to come back in the body of a clone. However Luke had become powerful so the force was still imbalanced. To balance it out Luke fell to the dark side. However this caused another imbalanced to Palpatine had to be killed and Luke being brough back to the light side. However there was still an imbalance. The lesson this all teaches us in that things are rarely in perfect balance and the force is always trying to correct itself. It is the classic battle of good vs evil. Neither side can ever be completly destroyed only held back. If you could destroy one then you would also destroy the other. So not even the chosen one could create an everlasting balance.

to be honest if its not in the movies dont think that george is necessarily happy with the outcome of his dream, in that particular aspect.

the way i see it, anakin IS the Chosen One because that one act of turning on old palps had repurcussions greater than the moment. If he hadn't the rebels would be wiped out - as it is, the rebels won mostly coz of it, beat the vong coz of it (im with the view that the Empire would seriously have been defeated by the vong) and now there is a time of <relative> peace.

If only they had actually shown in the film that what Luke did was relevant to victory...

Anakin is the chosen one. This has been confirmed many times. End of discussion.