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Spectre.

Come on lets not get silly now.

Spectre

Are you all forgetting her powers?

Is he actually banned or did he just make that his title?

Originally posted by Juntai
Is he actually banned or did he just make that his title?

Made the title. When the title restricted is under your name that means your actually banned.

oh lol, and what are her powers then mungi???

(Also btw how come u havent added any scans to respect AF in a while... its on page...i dont know a very bad page though)

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Are you all forgetting her powers?

Are you forgetting the Spectres and what exactly he is in the scheme of things?

He is a major cosmic being, Talisman is a member of Alpha Flight.

Youre hyping her up to the extremes with this one mate.

Originally posted by Mr. Valentine
oh lol, and what are her powers then mungi???

(Also btw how come u havent added any scans to respect AF in a while... its on page...i dont know a very bad page though)

The main reason I made this is her main power, she commands the spirits. All spirits, no matter who or what they are. The Talisman even controlled all of the Great Beasts at once, and Spectre being a spirit is not good for him

I did yesterday, added Sasquatch vs. Thing and Sasquatch vs. Hulk where he wins

0o0oh the great beasts?? the ones mauvais is trapped with?? damn they looked mighty powerful... im not sure then if she can controls beings of that power

and oh sorry lol ill go look at the now

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Are you forgetting the Spectres and what exactly he is in the scheme of things?

He is a major cosmic being, Talisman is a member of Alpha Flight.

Youre hyping her up to the extremes with this one mate.

Nope, havn't forgotten

Nope, if she fought one on one then she would lose pretty bad, but her ability to control ALL spirits puts him at a major disadvantage. She is the god's avatar to fight all evil.

Originally posted by Mr. Valentine
0o0oh the great beasts?? the ones mauvais is trapped with?? damn they looked mighty powerful... im not sure then if she can controls beings of that power

and oh sorry lol ill go look at the now

The one and the same, and yeah they are really powerful. Even Tanaraq beat Zarathos and Kulan Gath all in one day.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
The main reason I made this is her main power, she commands the spirits. All spirits, no matter who or what they are. The Talisman even controlled all of the Great Beasts at once, and Spectre being a spirit is not good for him

I did yesterday, added Sasquatch vs. Thing and Sasquatch vs. Hulk where he wins

Spectre is a spirit empowered by DC's supreme being. Talsiman is not going to have any power over him, she is empowered by Elder Gods. To presume so would be ludicrous.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Spectre is a spirit empowered by DC's supreme being. Talsiman is not going to have any power over him, she is empowered by Elder Gods. To presume so would be ludicrous.

Not really, when she has even commanded Gods to do her bidding, he is still a spirit regardless and hell even Psycho Pirate manipulated the Spectre.

Actually, I agree with Mungi. The fact he is a spirit would put him under her control. He can be as powerful as he wants. He's not above being manipulated. Day of Vengeance proved that.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nope, havn't forgotten

Nope, if she fought one on one then she would lose pretty bad, but her ability to control ALL spirits puts him at a major disadvantage. She is the god's avatar to fight all evil.


And your point is?

Thats like saying Quasar is the protector of the universe (appointed so by Marvels fundamental forces) and he has command over all types of energy, therefore he can take out Galactus.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And your point is?

Thats like saying Quasar is the protector of the universe (appointed so by Marvels fundamental forces) and he has command over all types of energy, therefore he can take out Galactus.

No, but can Quasar with his power can control Galactus? no. Can Talisman control spirits? Yes. See the difference. Her main strength is his disadvantage.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not really, when she has even commanded Gods to do her bidding, he is still a spirit regardless and hell even Psycho Pirate manipulated the Spectre.

Psycho pirate manipulated the Wrath which is something completely different. Please update your Spectre knowledge or ask Juntai and im sure he'd be glad to help you out.

Talisman may be able to command Elder Gods, however that is completely different to controlling a being empowered by a supreme being. Your logic is incredibly faulty.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No, but can Quasar with his power can control Galactus? no. Can Talisman control spirits? Yes. See the difference. Her main strength is his disadvantage.

Quasar versus Phoenix then. Phoenix is an energy being, he has command over all types of energy therefore by your logic he can defeat Phoenix.

Appalling.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Psycho pirate manipulated the Wrath which is something completely different. Please update your Spectre knowledge or ask Juntai and im sure he'd be glad to help you out.

Talisman may be able to command Elder Gods, however that is completely different to controlling a being empowered by a supreme being. Your logic is incredibly faulty.

No, I have most of the old Spectre run as well as Day of Vengeance. Try again.

Not really, Llan the great sourse of evil that surpasses Dr.Strange and Talisman in power created spirits and with her powers she controlled them even though Llan was stronger. Your a spirit any spirit your under her control. That's far from faulty.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Quasar versus Phoenix then. Phoenix is an energy being, he has command over all types of energy therefore by your logic he can defeat Phoenix.

Appalling.

Come on now has Quasar even been shown to control someone like that? That's not his power. However, with Talisman she has the power to control people. Their powers are not even closely related, try again.

At the end of the day, Talisman is empowered by Elder Gods, she is their avatar to fight ancient evils. Therefore you would expect her to have the potential to handle anyone up to that level.

Youre saying that because her power is to control spirits that she'll be able to command the Spectre. Thats horrible logic.

A Talisman versus Spectre match up is incredibly lopsided. I know you love all things Alpha Flight and i admire your recent campaign to gain them credibility on these forums, but match ups like this are not the way forward

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Come on now has Quasar even been shown to control someone like that? That's not his power. However, with Talisman she has the power to control people. Their powers are not even closely related, try again.

Youre missing the point completely.

Talismans power may be able to control spirits, but that doesnt mean she can control absolutely any spirit. She has limits just like the powers behind her have limits, theyre just Elder Gods.

Youre being very naive.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day, Talisman is empowered by Elder Gods, she is their avatar to fight ancient evils. Therefore you would expect her to have the potential to handle anyone up to that level.

Youre saying that because her power is to control spirits that hse'll be able to command the Spectre. Thats horrible logic.

A Talisman versus Spectre match up is incredibly lopsided. I know you love all things Alpha Flight and i admire your recent campaign to gain them credibility on these forums, but match ups like this are not the way forward

Nope, Llan surpassed her in every way imaginable. Even made Dr.Strange look like a chump, yet she still controlled his spirit creations. He was the sourse of all evil into our world. She never had a limit to what she can control, she could manipulate all magic as well.

Not really, since that's her power. Spectre is a spirit, she has been shown to control high skyfather gods like nothing. Your grasping at straws it's not faulty.

In a straight up fight if she didn't control him, then yes the Spectre would destroy her. That's nice, still doesn't prove I'm wrong.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre missing the point completely.

Talismans power may be able to control spirits, but that doesnt mean she can control absolutely any spirit. She has limits just like the powers behind her have limits, theyre just Elder Gods.

Youre being very naive.

Why by making comparsions that have no connection what's so ever

Wrong, as stated countless times in the series you stated I love oh so much she does in fact control all spirits. Nope, she doesn't and even if she did prove it.

No your trying to insult me, but havn't really backed anything up

And yet, Spectre could just... will Talisman.. to. . . no longer be able to use her powers at all.
How does she defend that?

You'll notice in Day of Judgement, he did it to Highfather, Shazam, Ganthet, Zues, Phantom Stranger at the same time, just by willing it.

Originally posted by Juntai
And yet, Spectre could just... will Talisman.. to. . . no longer be able to use her powers at all.
How does she defend that?

You'll notice in Day of Judgement, he did it to Highfather, Shazam, Ganthet, Zues, Phantom Stranger at the same time, just by willing it.

Nothing, but your assuming it takes awhile to control a spirit when it doesn't. She does it instantly, like I said one on one fight she would lose.

No he didn't, he first fought Spectre and Phantom Stranger then killed them or transformed them into a rat.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nope, Llan surpassed her in every way imaginable. Even made Dr.Strange look like a chump, yet she still controlled his spirit creations. He was the sourse of all evil into our world. She never had a limit to what she can control, she could manipulate all magic as well.

Llan was the source of all evil in Marvel?

According to whom? Where was that conclusively shown? Sounds like hyperbole to me.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not really, since that's her power. Spectre is a spirit, she has been shown to control high skyfather gods like nothing. Your grasping at straws it's not faulty.

And Quasars ability is to command all forms of energy so i guess that means he can handle any energy attacks sent his way regardless of who from?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
In a straight up fight if she didn't control him, then yes the Spectre would destroy her. That's nice, still doesn't prove I'm wrong.

You havent shown that she could control him. Your logic is horrible. She may have the ability to control spirits, but to assume that she would be able to control absolutely any spirit regardless of their power level when she herself is empowered by Elder Gods is ludicrous.

Horrrible, horrible logic.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Why by making comparsions that have no connection what's so ever

Wrong, as stated countless times in the series you stated I love oh so much she does in fact control all spirits. Nope, she doesn't and even if she did prove it.

No your trying to insult me, but havn't really backed anything up

Where does it state and show that Talisman can control and command absolutely any spirit she wants to. Come up with the relevant scans otherwise your argument is void.

No im not intending to insult you , im just calling it as i see it. To attempt to make a serious match up between a major cosmic being and a member of Alpha Flight is ridiculous. Your logic behind this is terrible. Id expect this from a noob, not someone as seasoned as yourself.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nothing, but your assuming it takes awhile to control a spirit when it doesn't. She does it instantly, like I said one on one fight she would lose.

No he didn't, he first fought Spectre and Phantom Stranger then killed them or transformed them into a rat. Day of Judgment, not Day of Vengeance. He just willed the entire quintessence powerless.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Llan was the source of all evil in Marvel?

According to whom? Where was that conclusively shown? Sounds like hyperbole to me.

And Quasars ability is to command all forms of energy so i guess that means he can handle energy attacks sent his way regardless of who from?

You havent shown that she could control him. Youre logic is horrible. She may have the ability to control spirits, but top assume that she would be able to control absolutely any spirit regardless of their power level when she herself is empowered by Elder Gods is ludicrous.

Horrrible, horrible logic.

1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-03.jpg
2. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-09.jpg
3. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-20.jpg

No, because he has never shown to control someone doing that. While Talisman has. Also question where did you get that Elder Gods stuff and where Talisman had the limits, because that was never stated or the Gods she is the avatar for. Quasar did absrob Ego when Silver Surfer failed, but in the grand scheme of things Talisman is higher up than Quasar.

Of course not, but there is strong evidence with her powers she is capable of. If I knew for sure she could I wouldn't have made this thread. However, I have pointed out her abilities and strengths and how she has controlled various Gods since they were spirits. Where are you getting this Elder God stuff from? We have no idea what gods if it's all gods or a select few. No it's not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where does it state and show that Talisman can control and command absolutely any spirit she wants to. Come up with the relevant scans otherwise your argument is void.

No im not intending to insult you , im just calling it as i see it. To attempt to make a serious match up between a major cosmic being and a member of Alpha Flight is ridiculous. Your logic behind this is terrible. Id expect this from a noob, not someone as seasoned as yourself.

Oh it states it many times. This is from just one issue, I'll get the rest but I have to go through all of the respect thread.
1. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight38-18.jpg
2. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight38-19.jpg
3. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight37-20.jpg
4. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight37-11.jpg
5. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight37-08.jpg
6. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight37-09.jpg

Bah! In many threads I have stated Alpha FLight would lose in various battles. Even all of Alpha Flight would be squashed under the might of Spectre, but Guardian has beaten Galactus (weakened of course):P Once again your trying to insult me, but brought nothing to the table.

Originally posted by Juntai
Day of Judgment, not Day of Vengeance. He just willed the entire quintessence powerless.

Maybe, but in Day of Vengeance he didn't. Like I said he doesn't take her long to control a spirit, it's a thought and your under her control.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Maybe, but in Day of Vengeance he didn't. Like I said he doesn't take her long to control a spirit, it's a thought and your under her control. And in a thought, he can build an entire dimension and shut her in it, where-in she's nailed to a cross, and each morning, a flock of ravens rise and tear her flesh apart.

It's really a completely lopsided fight and you're obviously grasping at straws here.

Originally posted by Juntai
And in a thought, he can build an entire dimension and shut her in it, where-in she's nailed to a cross, and each morning, a flock of ravens rise and tear her flesh apart.

It's really a completely lopsided fight and you're obviously grasping at straws here.

In a thought she can control him due to he is a spirit and she is the Binder of Spirits.

If she can't control him then yes it is, as I have said before. She can't match up with him in power.

from what i understand i dont know if having an army of spirits will help you when spectre came for satannus he did just that have an army of ghosts and junk waiting for the spectre but he knew that the army would likely fail and even if she controlls him she probably wont for long just like black alice couldnt even controll him half an hour like she can most people.

I mean if you seriously think if all you had to do to beat Spectre was take control of it with some soul manipulation. . . someone might have thought of it . . .?

Originally posted by Mider
from what i understand i dont know if having an army of spirits will help you when spectre came for satannus he did just that have an army of ghosts and junk waiting for the spectre but he knew that the army would likely fail and even if she controlls him she probably wont for long just like black alice couldnt even controll him half an hour like she can most people.

Eh? I'm not talking about her summoning a spirit army to attack him since she would lose, but talking about with her power to control him. She stole his powers, she didn't control him. That's different.

Originally posted by Juntai
And in a thought, he can build an entire dimension and shut her in it, where-in she's nailed to a cross, and each morning, a flock of ravens rise and tear her flesh apart.

It's really a completely lopsided fight and you're obviously grasping at straws here.

Preach!!!

I cant b arsed to read let alone reply to that long ass post above. Anyone with common sense can see how awful his logic is.

Ive said all i need to say for the moment. Thats unless someone decides to get smart wiv me. Educate the masses J. I'll leave this in your capable hands.

Originally posted by Juntai
I mean if you seriously think if all you had to do to beat Spectre was take control of it with some soul manipulation. . . someone might have thought of it . . .?

She is higher up than most people, she is the Binder of Spirits and the avatar of the Gods. Not many can claim that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Preach!!!

I cant b arsed to read let alone reply to that long ass post above. Anyone with common sense can see how awful his logic is.

Ive said all i need to say for the moment. Thats unless someone decides to get smart wiv me. Educate the masses J. I'll leave this in your capable hands.

I've already stated she would lose if she couldn't control him.

Yeah you did wonders proving me wrong

Hey you started to insult me, at least I'm posting evidence rather than just saying my logic is faulty.

she cant say she is the wrath of the presance though, and you dont know if she can controll him

Originally posted by Mider
she cant say she is the wrath of the presance though, and you dont know if she can controll him

Seriously is no one even reading what I'm saying? I've said that mutliple times, but she has been shown to control high skyfather gods like they were nothing. He is the Spirit of Vengeance and she is the Binder of Spirits.

I understand your logic, its pretty simple....
he is a spirit
she controls spirits
she controls him
she wins

Spectre is above the Gods that power her. He is the Wrath of the Divine being, the one who created the very idea of creation..

She -may- be able to manipulate the host soul... for a time, and then as a defensive mechanism, The Wrath aspect would grow tired it and explode from the host subconscious, and then it's all over.

But no one has shown to ever be able to simply take control of Spectre, not gods, not Gods, and not the guys higher than them. If it was possible to simply control the Wrath of God, things like Day of Judgment and Day of Vengeance wouldn't happen.


Like I said though, the whole arguement is really reaching, as it relies entirely on something that has never been shown as possible, why nearly ANYTHING that Spectre can do, kills her outright. Hell, he can simply take her soul to heaven, or hell, or make it suffer a reality worse than hell.

It's an infinitude of possible wins for Spectre versus one off the wall shot in the dark.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is above the Gods that power her. He is the Wrath of the Divine being, the one who created the very idea of creation..

She -may- be able to manipulate the host soul... for a time, and then as a defensive mechanism, The Wrath aspect would grow tired it and explode from the host subconscious, and then it's all over.

But no one has shown to ever be able to simply take control of Spectre, not gods, not Gods, and not the guys higher than them. If it was possible to simply control the Wrath of God, things like Day of Judgment and Day of Vengeance wouldn't happen.

How do you know that? What are the Gods that empower her?

Maybe, but that's what this debate is about.

Not really, because out of all the magic users there none of them command all the spirits or the Binder of Spirits. She is the avatar for the Gods, which gods....was never stated. For all we know it could be all of the Gods.

Originally posted by Juntai
Like I said though, the whole arguement is really reaching, as it relies entirely on something that has never been shown as possible, why nearly ANYTHING that Spectre can do, kills her outright. Hell, he can simply take her soul to heaven, or hell, or make it suffer a reality worse than hell.

It's an infinitude of possible wins for Spectre versus one off the wall shot in the dark.

Yes Spectre has been shown to be manipulated and there is no one in the DC universe with Talisman's power set. He is far from being manipulated as Day of Vegeance showed. Nope, people tried that before and they couldn't.

Yes, if she doesn't control him then yes he would win. As I said

Originally posted by King_Mungi
How do you know that? What are the Gods that empower her?

Maybe, but that's what this debate is about.

Not really, because out of all the magic users there none of them command all the spirits or the Binder of Spirits. She is the avatar for the Gods, which gods....was never stated. For all we know it could be all of the Gods. It doesn't matter which, and could be all of them...but all of the Gods are below Spectre. What is it you don't understand about that?

It is also Spectre's job to deal with souls. In fact, he's been shown as capable of leading every soul in every time and plane of existance at the same time. Even the very fabric of existance has been shown as his plaything.

It's just plain dumb to believe that a lowly Earth mystic is going to somehow not only tame but practice control over The Wrath of God. If it were really that easy, it would be done each time he steps out of hand.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes Spectre has been shown to be manipulated and there is no one in the DC universe with Talisman's power set. He is far from being manipulated as Day of Vegeance showed. Nope, people tried that before and they couldn't.

Yes, if she doesn't control him then yes he would win. As I said The Wrath was shown as being able to be confused, but The Wrath is just a perception of a way God works anyways.

Originally posted by Juntai
It doesn't matter which, and could be all of them...but all of the Gods are below Spectre. What is it you don't understand about that?

It is also Spectre's job to deal with souls. In fact, he's been shown as capable of leading every soul in every time and plane of existance at the same time. Even the very fabric of existance has been shown as his plaything.

It's just plain dumb to believe that a lowly Earth mystic is going to somehow not only tame but practice control over The Wrath of God. If it were really that easy, it would be done each time he steps out of hand.

All the gods are below Spectre? doubtful, since if it is all of the Gods than TOAA is included with it.

That's nice, but as I have said several times she is the Binder of Spirits. Him leading spirits doesn't make him not able to be under the control of Talisman who controls all spirits. So? yes it has been shown to be his plaything that doesn't prove he can't be manipulated. As I have said he is stronger than her.

Was it dumb that a lowly mortal stole all of his magical powers? . No, because there is no one in the DC universe or anyone else in the Marvel universe that has her powerset. So no they couldn't do it since there is only one Talisman.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Wrath was shown as being able to be confused, but The Wrath is just a perception of a way God works anyways.

Correct, but he can still be manipulated. Like in Day of Vengeance he didn't have the word backing him he was significantly weaker.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
All the gods are below Spectre? doubtful, since if it is all of the Gods than TOAA is included with it.

That's nice, but as I have said several times she is the Binder of Spirits. Him leading spirits doesn't make him not able to be under the control of Talisman who controls all spirits. So? yes it has been shown to be his plaything that doesn't prove he can't be manipulated. As I have said he is stronger than her.

Was it dumb that a lowly mortal stole all of his magical powers? . No, because there is no one in the DC universe or anyone else in the Marvel universe that has her powerset. So no they couldn't do it since there is only one Talisman.



Correct, but he can still be manipulated. Like in Day of Vengeance he didn't have the word backing him he was significantly weaker. What does her powerset mean when he dissapears, kills the gods that power her, then writes her out of the universe entirely?

Dude, you're really seriously truly reaching believing an Earth mystic can take control of The Wrath of God.

he wasnt very much weaker and he can still summon more power he just has to call upon it, tell us one time where he was controlled

You keep using Day of Vengeance of a sidenote.

Who in Day of Vengeance defeated Spectre?
Exactly.
God did. And nothing short of.
lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
What does her powerset mean when he dissapears, kills the gods that power her, then writes her out of the universe entirely?

Dude, you're really seriously truly reaching believing an Earth mystic can take control of The Wrath of God.

Remember IF she can control him, she can do it instantly. It's not like a charge up attack, she thinks and the spirits obeys her/

Not really, when Black Alice a Earth human girl took ALL of Spectre's power.

Originally posted by Mider
he wasnt very much weaker and he can still summon more power he just has to call upon it, tell us one time where he was controlled

Which he never did, even Nabu made the comment Luther was using him to steal all the magic "but you've devoured so much raw magic over the past days you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself--where did all that magic you captured actually go?"

Originally posted by Juntai
You keep using Day of Vengeance of a sidenote.

Who in Day of Vengeance defeated Spectre?
Exactly.
God did. And nothing short of.
lol.

Black Alice temporally did as well as Captain Marvel and the ShadowPack chased Spectre off twice. Once again no one in the DC universe has Talisman's powerset.

No offense King but it's a little late for a April fools day joke.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Remember IF she can control him, she can do it instantly. It's not like a charge up attack, she thinks and the spirits obeys her/

Not really, when Black Alice a Earth human girl took ALL of Spectre's power.



Which he never did, even Nabu made the comment Luther was using him to steal all the magic "but you've devoured so much raw magic over the past days you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself--where did all that magic you captured actually go?"



Black Alice temporally did as well as Captain Marvel and the ShadowPack chased Spectre off twice. Once again no one in the DC universe has Talisman's powerset. No, those people held him off momentarily, they didn't stop him. He completed everything he set out to do. God had to stop him and attach him to another human soul. He rampaged until that moment.

She didn't take Spectre's power, Spectre IS power. She temporarily became the host of The Spectre, and The Wrath was somehow left out of the equation. But we've seen it exist seperately before, it's nothing new. It's just a physically manifested perception anyways.

Needless to say the details of Black Alice's power are yet to be revealed, perhaps later in The Shadowpact series. But it's clear that it's pretty plot influenced, she took Zatanna's ability to speak backwards completely rather than just her majicks. When she took Dr Fate's abilities, all of the mantle, helm and everything appeared on her as well. And Dr Fate couldn't summon them.


The quickness of how fast Talisman can summon the power is irrelivent. Time is not linear to Spectre.


And you're still reaching for straws.
This is Gods Wrath vs Earth mystic.

Do you see the difference?

Anything she could do, he can do an infinitude better.
"You'll find that I have any power I want."

Spectre wins.

alice only took his power for a time as in not even 30 minutes like she usually can only a few seconds cause it was to much for her, so thats not that big a feat, and who won the battle between spectre and nabu?

the thing is he is so above every being that powers her that she wouldn't be able to control him. Skyfathers are below elder gods arent they? well thats why she could control them. Spectre is above elder gods,abstracts,etc.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
No offense King but it's a little late for a April fools day joke.

It's not.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, those people held him off momentarily, they didn't stop him. He completed everything he set out to do. God had to stop him and attach him to another human soul. He rampaged until that moment.

She didn't take Spectre's power, Spectre IS power. She temporarily became the host of The Spectre, and The Wrath was somehow left out of the equation. But we've seen it exist seperately before, it's nothing new. It's just a physically manifested perception anyways.

Needless to say the details of Black Alice's power are yet to be revealed, perhaps later in The Shadowpact series. But it's clear that it's pretty plot influenced, she took Zatanna's ability to speak backwards completely rather than just her majicks. When she took Dr Fate's abilities, all of the mantle, helm and everything appeared on her as well. And Dr Fate couldn't summon them.




The quickness of how fast Talisman can summon the power is irrelivent. Time is not linear to Spectre.


And you're still reaching for straws.
This is Gods Wrath vs Earth mystic.

Do you see the difference?

Anything she could do, he can do an infinitude better.
"You'll find that I have any power I want."

Spectre wins.



Yes mortals held off the Spectre, and no he didn't. He was severly weakened even needed Eclipso to help him escape "Still alive, my love? Good. Get up now. If you've any energy left, you need to fly both of us away from here. Quickly before they spot us". He even says later, "they nearly destroyed me" and had to stop to fully recover. The second time he fled "Eclipso, when my powers returns, I plan to be far away from here--where they won't be able to do this to me again. Hold them here. Keep them from following me."

the difference? "My power! It's gone!", Black Alice comments "It's not your power anymore Spectre! It's mine! I'm the Divine Engine of Vengeance now!" So how is that any different with her taking Spectre's power as she has taken Zantanna's, Nabu's and Captain Marvel's powers as well. As Spectre said "Without mu power nothing's left but empty spirit" and Enchantress replies "He's basically a memory--a lingering afterimage. My guess is he'll fade to nothingness in a short time, as long as he doesn't get his powers back first"

She steals powers, and then later Dr.Fate began to train her with her powers that's why she is so skilled now. She is still a mortal and she still stole his powers.

Sure it is, even against the Shadowpact and various others he didn't just blink them out of existance. He even admited he didn't have the power to destroy the Phantom Stranger or Nabu/Dr,Fate

No, Gods Wrath vs. Gods avatar and the Binder of Spirits

Do YOU see the difference?

Originally posted by Mider
alice only took his power for a time as in not even 30 minutes like she usually can only a few seconds cause it was to much for her, so thats not that big a feat, and who won the battle between spectre and nabu?

Not a big feat? Are you nuts, she took God's wraith and Nabu wanted him to beat him.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
the thing is he is so above every being that powers her that she wouldn't be able to control him. Skyfathers are below elder gods arent they? well thats why she could control them. Spectre is above elder gods,abstracts,etc.

Alright who are the gods that power her then? People keep claiming they know so who are they?

Why is it so hard to imagine someone having the correct powerset to take Spectre?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not a big feat? Are you nuts, she took God's wraith and Nabu wanted him to beat him.



Alright who are the gods that power her then? People keep claiming they know so who are they? Nabu didn't have a choice, he knew he was going to lose, and he knew it was still the only way, and he fought back anyways. And lost just as predicted.



It doesn't matter who it is. Spectre is a manifestation of Gods will, all creations are below it. All beings in the universe recognize Spectre as the the highest calibre of character. There's a lot of characters that can control and manipulate souls, yet for all their power, they weren't there to stop Spectre, who in Day of Vengance alone slaughtered schools of magic, 700 some off mages in the first issue alone, then went on defeat various lords of order and chaos.. and finally had to be stopped by God.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Why is it so hard to imagine someone having the correct powerset to take Spectre? Why is it so hard to imagine that he can write her existance out of the universe entirely? It's not even a battle, this is just him reaching for straws.

Originally posted by Juntai
Nabu didn't have a choice, he knew he was going to lose, and he knew it was still the only way, and he fought back anyways. And lost just as predicted.

It doesn't matter who it is. Spectre is a manifestation of Gods will, all creations are below it. All beings in the universe recognize Spectre as the the highest calibre of character. There's a lot of characters that can control and manipulate souls, yet for all their power, they weren't there to stop Spectre, who in Day of Vengance alone slaughtered schools of magic, 700 some off mages in the first issue alone, then went on defeat various lords of order and chaos.. and finally had to be stopped by God.

No he didn't, and it was his plan to lose. He even stated that. He wanted the Age of Magic to end so God would finally take notice. With all the magic being destroyed all the magic users were being weakened and wern't at their full power, but Nabu wanted Spectre to kill him.

Yes he is, I never stated he wasn't. However, he has been shown to be defeated and his powers stolen even by mortals. Also there are some who can control souls, but Talisman controls all spirits and is the choosen one. The Gods avatar, once again as I have stated before there is NO one like her in the DC univerese. Plus not all the magic users he killed were on Dr.Strange's level...far from it actually.

Originally posted by Juntai
Why is it so hard to imagine that he can write her existance out of the universe entirely? It's not even a battle, this is just him reaching for straws.

Yes in a straight up fight she LOOSES, the whole debate is can she control him?. No it isn't reaching for straws at all

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No he didn't, and it was his plan to lose. He even stated that. He wanted the Age of Magic to end so God would finally take notice. With all the magic being destroyed all the magic users were being weakened and wern't at their full power, but Nabu wanted Spectre to kill him.

Yes he is, I never stated he wasn't. However, he has been shown to be defeated and his powers stolen even by mortals. Also there are some who can control souls, but Talisman controls all spirits and is the choosen one. The Gods avatar, once again as I have stated before there is NO one like her in the DC univerese. Plus not all the magic users he killed were on Dr.Strange's level...far from it actually.



Yes in a straight up fight she LOOSES, the whole debate is can she control him?. No it isn't reaching for straws at all
Forum rules state characters are at their optimum when they fight. At optimum, Spectre destroys pretty much anyone and anything.

You're claiming a girl, through another gods jurisdiction is going to control the spirit of The Spectre. However, The Spectre is not a spirit, the HOST is.

All Black Alice did was temporarily BECOME the Spectre, and only for a handful of moments. What was left, described as an 'afterimage' in the comic was what is known as THE WRATH, to Spectre readers.... which is just a perception. That's all it is. It's a way that the universe interprets gods' uncontrolled anger. She was tapping The Spectre's power, which includes the ability to control and manipulate and destroy and guide any and all souls, yet all her power she could do nothing to affect it. Talisman could not either, because it's not a soul, it's not even actually real, it's just a perception.

The only soul that COULD be argued to be controlled, is the HOST soul, as in current Spectre would be Crispis, but tampering with the host soul would only unleash Gods Wrath, which would then kill her. No one has ever done such a tactic, but the host has shown it can be confused with telepathy and other such tactics, but either the host learns to understand and deals accordingly or simply unleashes the Wrath, which promply deals with the problem itself.

Unless of course, you're going to claim she could control The Logoz next. lol.

Anyways, The Spectre controls souls himself, and on a much higher level of play. It's safe to say he's got a counter for anything she's got. Just as it's safe to say she will lose any and all confontations with a character this powerful.

The gods who's power she summons couldn't defeat him, and the gods that made those gods couldn't beat him. He is the wrath of the almighty and she's way out of her league.

Period.

I understand that Talisman is uber powerful, Alpha Flight doesn't get enough respect, Alpha Flight has some of the most powerful characters they just don't get recognized, etc... But this fight is complete non-sense. Spectre is like the Living Tribunal of the DC universe. Spectre would just blink her out of existance. Why is this even a fight?

Originally posted by batdude123
I understand that Talisman is uber powerful, Alpha Flight doesn't get enough respect, Alpha Flight has some of the most powerful characters they just don't get recognized, etc... But this fight is complete non-sense Spectre is like the Living Tribunal of the DC universe. Spectre wold just blink her out of existance. Why is this even a fight? He thinks she's just going to . . .take control of him. . . ..

Originally posted by Juntai
He thinks she's just going to . . .take control of him. . . ..

Originally posted by Juntai
Forum rules state characters are at their optimum when they fight. At optimum, Spectre destroys pretty much anyone and anything.

You're claiming a girl, through another gods jurisdiction is going to control the spirit of The Spectre. However, The Spectre is not a spirit, the HOST is.

All Black Alice did was temporarily BECOME the Spectre, and only for a handful of moments. What was left, described as an 'afterimage' in the comic was what is known as THE WRATH, to Spectre readers.... which is just a perception. That's all it is. It's a way that the universe interprets gods' uncontrolled anger. She was tapping The Spectre's power, which includes the ability to control and manipulate and destroy and guide any and all souls, yet all her power she could do nothing to affect it. Talisman could not either, because it's not a soul, it's not even actually real, it's just a perception.

The only soul that COULD be argued to be controlled, is the HOST soul, as in current Spectre would be Crispis, but tampering with the host soul would only unleash Gods Wrath, which would then kill her. No one has ever done such a tactic, but the host has shown it can be confused with telepathy and other such tactics, but either the host learns to understand and deals accordingly or simply unleashes the Wrath, which promply deals with the problem itself.

Unless of course, you're going to claim she could control The Logoz next. lol.

Anyways, The Spectre controls souls himself, and on a much higher level of play. It's safe to say he's got a counter for anything she's got. Just as it's safe to say she will lose any and all confontations with a character this powerful. The gods who's power she summons couldn't defeat him, and the gods that made those gods couldn't beat him. He is the wrath of the almighty and she's way out of her league.


Of course I even stated that Talisman does't have the physical power to beat him.

Which can be controlled, hence my point. Spirit of Vegenance and the Binder of Spirits.

So? she took the Spectre's power, a mortal took all his power and left him nothing other than just a memory. Once again your commenting on points that have nothing to do with this thread. She wasn't experienced with the Spectre's power and didn't know how to fully use it, however, Spectre is still a living spirit a creature that Talisman is stated she can control with her powers. In that form yes he wasn't real, but Talisman wouldn't do anything like that. They even stated in the Day of Vengeance mini even without a host he was still a spirit.

That's fine, that's why I made this debate. I was not making statements set in stone that she manipulate him. However, you guys were claiming my logic was faulty, while I was still posting evidence. Yes no one has done such a tactic, because there is no one who can. There isn't anyone like Talisman in any of the DC or Marvel universes.

Unknown, like I said for all we know she could even be the avatar for the TOAA the same being as the wraith for Spectre. Not entirely, power-wise yes she can't do the things he can do. However, it's her ability to control all spirits that can give her the edge. Like I said for all we know she could be the avatar for all the gods, since she can manipulate magic on a high degree. Spectre has been beaten by mortals before, he is far from being untouchable.

Talisman can control spirits but not any all spirits. Spectre is not your average spirit, he is exactly like the Living Tribunal. I doubt Talisman is powerful enough to be able to control Spectre. But let's just say for the sake of arguements that she can (even though I doubt she can), how is she gonna control him before he just blinks Talisman out of existance?

lol dont make me get into the Living jobber being a punk

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Of course I even stated that Talisman does't have the physical power to beat him.

Which can be controlled, hence my point. Spirit of Vegenance and the Binder of Spirits.

So? she took the Spectre's power, a mortal took all his power and left him nothing other than just a memory. Once again your commenting on points that have nothing to do with this thread. She wasn't experienced with the Spectre's power and didn't know how to fully use it, however, Spectre is still a living spirit a creature that Talisman is stated she can control with her powers. In that form yes he wasn't real, but Talisman wouldn't do anything like that. They even stated in the Day of Vengeance mini even without a host he was still a spirit.

That's fine, that's why I made this debate. I was not making statements set in stone that she manipulate him. However, you guys were claiming my logic was faulty, while I was still posting evidence. Yes no one has done such a tactic, because there is no one who can. There isn't anyone like Talisman in any of the DC or Marvel universes.

Unknown, like I said for all we know she could even be the avatar for the TOAA the same being as the wraith for Spectre. Not entirely, power-wise yes she can't do the things he can do. However, it's her ability to control all spirits that can give her the edge. Like I said for all we know she could be the avatar for all the gods, since she can manipulate magic on a high degree. Spectre has been beaten by mortals before, he is far from being untouchable.
It's not a spirit, that's just how they percieved it.
I went through this already.
There is The Logoz, a piece of God, and the Host Spirit it bonds to.
The Wrath is just a perception that humanity creates.
This is all supported on panel and can't really be argued by you.
The only soul or spirit in The Spectre, is the hosts.
And attacking such would earn the ire of The Wrath.

But as said, Spectre plays in a different league. He can simply turn her powers off. Even turn the powers of wherever she draws her power from. Or any number of variables. He just plain wins.



Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.

Why the heck do you hate Living Tribunal? That's like hating the guy who was running the water systems in Batman Begins!

Originally posted by Mider
lol dont make me get into the Living jobber being a punk

Okay, you might not like The Living Tribunal, but this is Spectre we're talking about. Even you have to admit that Spectre would kick her ass within 1 second.

Well, a physical fight is a bit of a duh. Personally, I think she could control Spectre, because of the fact he's been duped before.

Originally posted by Juntai
Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.

I agree with part of everything you said. Black Alice DID take Spectre's power. He was powerless for that brief moment.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Well, a physical fight is a bit of a duh. Personally, I think she could control Spectre, because of the fact he's been duped before.

Dude c'mon, this fight would last all but a second. She can't even control Spectre as explained by Juntai before. He just blinks her out of existence within 1 second.

Originally posted by jrodslam
I agree with part of everything you said. Black Alice DID take Spectre's power. He was powerless for that brief moment. I have to dissagree, she BECAME Gods vengance, momentarily. Once that happened, all that was left was The Wrath, which is just a perception anyways.

There is nothing to TAKE, per-se.
Because Spectre IS a piece of God and a human soul.
Without a human soul, it's just a piece of God, and a perception humanity places on it.

She took a piece of God?

That doesn't even make sense.


She became Gods vengeance, as said herself, and all that was left, was The Wrath, the perception, and none of even Spectre's powers worked on it, why would Talismans?

The only option is attack the host with her spirit powers, but that would also just end in her demise.

Neither does the sword of stuperman, but people use that in arguments too.

Originally posted by Thunderstrike
Neither does the sword of stuperman, but people use that in arguments too.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to this topic. Talisman would lose... badly too.

Originally posted by Juntai
I have to dissagree, she BECAME Gods vengance/The Spectre, momentarily. Once that happened, all that was left was The Wrath, which is just a perception anyways.

There is nothing to TAKE, per-se.
Because Spectre IS a piece of God and a human soul.
Without a human soul, it's just a piece of God, and a perception humanity places on it.

She took a piece of God?

That doesn't even make sense.

Hey im just going by what the comics say.

Spectre: "My power! Its gone!"
Alice: "Its not your power anymore, Spectre! Its mine!"

Spectre then went on to say shortly after..

Spectre: "Without my power, nothings left but empty spirit."

Originally posted by jrodslam
Hey im just going by what the comics say.

Spectre: "My power! Its gone!"
Alice: "Its not your power anymore, Spectre! Its mine!"

Spectre then went on to say shortly after..

Spectre: "Without my power, nothings left but empty spirit." But it's just a perception, we know this from The Spectre comics, what was left is not the sum of the whole, it's not what Spectre is. Though it does have form and has existed seperately from Spectre on other occasions.

It is The Logoz and a host spirit, that is what The Spectre is.
She temporarily was bonded to the Logoz, as in she became the engine of divine vengeance, which she said herself. Once that was done, all that was left was an immaterial perception of The Wrath. Which as stated in Spectre comics, is not a spirit, just the way humanity perceives gods anger.

Even with that power, she was unable to affect The Wrath. Or the 'spirit', which is your first clue Talisman wouldn't be able to, since Spectre plays the soul game too, and on a much higher level.

Originally posted by Juntai
But it's just a perception, we know this from The Spectre comics, what was left is not the sum of the whole, it's not what Spectre is. Though it does have form and has existed seperately from Spectre on other occasions.

It is The Logoz and a host spirit, that is what The Spectre is.
She temporarily was bonded to the Logoz, as in she became the engine of divine vengeance, which she said herself. Once that was done, all that was left was an immaterial perception of The Wrath. Which as stated in Spectre comics, is not a spirit, just the way humanity perceives how Spectre works.

Either way, she was able to take his powers momentarily and leave him with nothing. He couldnt even attack. He told Ecpliso that when his power returns, he doesnt even wanna be there for fear they might do it again. Wrath or empy spirit, he was powerless. Although he couldnt be attacked either, so youre right about Talisman not being able to do anything agsint him anyway.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Either way, she was able to take his powers momentarily and leave him with nothing. He couldnt even attack. He told Ecpliso that when his power returns, he doesnt even wanna be there for fear they might do it again. Wrath or empy spirit, he was powerless. Although he couldnt be attacked either, so youre right about Talisman not being able to do anything agsint him anyway. Right, but that's not Spectre's whole, they were calling it that, because it was the enemy, but it's just a perception. She actually became what Spectre is, a soul tied to the Logoz, the divine vengeance, shoot, for a time, Hal Jordan completely banished that aspect from himself completely while he was Spectre.

But yea, if she couldn't affect The Wrath with those powers, it won't be happening with Talisman's powers either.

Which is why I said the only hope is to attack the host, which will just piss him off.

Originally posted by batdude123
Talisman can control spirits but not any all spirits. Spectre is not your average spirit, he is exactly like the Living Tribunal. I doubt Talisman is powerful enough to be able to control Spectre. But let's just say for the sake of arguements that she can (even though I doubt she can), how is she gonna control him before he just blinks Talisman out of existance?

Ummm...she doesn't? proof? because it's said she commands all spirits. If she is under her control she wouldn't blink her out of existance

Originally posted by Juntai
It's not a spirit, that's just how they percieved it.
I went through this already.
There is The Logoz, a piece of God, and the Host Spirit it bonds to.
The Wrath is just a perception that humanity creates.
This is all supported on panel and can't really be argued by you.
The only soul or spirit in The Spectre, is the hosts.
And attacking such would earn the ire of The Wrath.

But as said, Spectre plays in a different league. He can simply turn her powers off. Even turn the powers of wherever she draws her power from. Or any number of variables. He just plain wins.


Black Alice's random showing was a complete plot device.. and she didn't actually TAKE Spectre's power. She BECAME the Spectre, momentarily. "I am now the engine of divine vengeance". That's what her power is. She BECOMES who she borrows powers from. Similarly, she became Dr Fate, helmet, amulet, trinkets and all. All that was left when she did that in Day of Vengeance was The Wrath. A perception.


The Great Beasts arn't spirits either, but their from the spirit world and the Talisman still controlled them.

Uhhhh...I wasn't aruging that, and actually there is more than just the host Spirit. Since unless it was retconned the Sepctre was originally an angel who was later given the Logoz.

Unknown, since like I have said countless times we don't know which gods channel through her. She is the one who is suppose to fight all evil. He wins unless she can't control him.

No as said in the comics, by Spectre and BA his powers were gone. Yes he became the Spectre and took his powers, but Nabu is still Nabu and Zantanna is still Zantanna. She took his powers and left him with nothing.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Ummm...she doesn't? proof? because it's said she commands all spirits. If she is under her control she wouldn't blink her out of existance




The Great Beasts arn't spirits either, but their from the spirit world and the Talisman still controlled them.

Uhhhh...I wasn't aruging that, and actually there is more than just the host Spirit. Since unless it was retconned the Sepctre was originally an angel who was later given the Logoz.

Unknown, since like I have said countless times we don't know which gods channel through her. She is the one who is suppose to fight all evil. He wins unless she can't control him.

No as said in the comics, by Spectre and BA his powers were gone. Yes he became the Spectre and took his powers, but Nabu is still Nabu and Zantanna is still Zantanna. She took his powers and left him with nothing. You're confusing what The Spectre is, you've clearly never read one of it's comics. Day of Vengeance falls in perfectly with everything written.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre, that's just what they were calling it in the series, it was the enemy of the series.

It is not a ghost, it is not a spirit, it is JUST A PERCEPTION. An idea. This has been told to us by God itself. You cannot dispute it.

She removed The Logoz from The Wrath, temporarily and bonded with it. In all technical manners, she BECAME Spectre, she became the divine aspect of vengeance, what was left was The Wrath. A perception.

Do you understand now?

edit.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're confusing what The Spectre is, you've clearly never read one of it's comics. Day of Vengeance falls in perfectly with everything written.

The Wrath is NOT The Spectre, that's just what they were calling it in the series, it was the enemy of the series.

It is not a ghost, it is not a spirit, it is JUST A PERCEPTION. An idea. This has been told to us by God itself. You cannot dispute it.

She removed The Logoz from The Wrath, temporarily and bonded with it. In all technical manners, she BECAME Spectre, she became the divine wrath, what was left was The Wrath. A perception.

Do you understand now?

No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic The angel was Aztar, but Raguel/Aztar's existance was completely deleted by The Word, that was his punishment as shown in Spectre volume 3 issue 60 when Spectre/Corrigan sees the creation of The Spectre. The only thing he lends to Spectre is the appearance.

The Wrath itself is just a perception, as shown in Spectre volume 4 issue 4, wherein The Logoz, a part of God, tells us that itself. It also tells us that it IS what the Spectre truly is.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No I have, I remember they stated he was the archangel Raguel unless that was retconned. It was stated in either Sandman or the Book of Magic, I'll have to double check.

That's fine, as I have agreed on the host can be manipulated.

Yes she became the Spectre, Raguel unless that's changed lost his powers and she gained them. He still lost them, while she took them.

EDIT: Yep said in Neil Gaiman: Book of Magic Books of Magic is a Vertigo title and not considered canon by DC, regardless of how well intertwined they are. But either way, I discussed the origin above.

Originally posted by Juntai
The angel was Aztar, but Raguel/Aztar's existance was completely deleted by The Word, that was his punishment as shown in Spectre volume 3 issue 60 when Spectre sees the creation of The Spectre. The only thing he lends to Spectre is the appearance.

The Wrath itself is just a perception, as shown in Spectre volume 4 issue 4, wherein The Logoz, a part of God, tells us that itself. It also tells us that it IS what the Spectre truly is.

I'll have to check it out, I followed more of the classic Spectre and about 20 or so issues of the recent series.

Alright I'll concede, like I said I was never set in stone with Talisman winning which people thought I was. However, it is still possible for her to control the host but what happens is up for others to debate.

Here's the origin in issue 60.

Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."


__________________________________________________
___
Spectre volume 4 issue 4, Hal taking The Wrath back into himself, after previously casting it out. While outside of him, The Wrath took of Zauriel's body.

Anyways, here's The Logoz, a piece of God, describing The Wrath as a perception and what The Spectre truly is.



The Logoz:"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."

and then on page 14.

Logoz: "For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Much appreicated, but is this before he sees "his" God that he created eating all his servants?

I didn't follow when Hal became the Spectre, I stopped reading comics around that time.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Much appreicated, but is this before he sees "his" God that he created eating all his servants?

I didn't follow when Hal became the Spectre, I stopped reading comics around that time. Well, that origin is from the very end of volume 3, which was mid 90s, there was only 62 issues. That was issue 60. After that, Corrigan moved on to Heaven, and Day of Judgement happened, where Azmodel the fallen angel bonded with the Spectre from the feathers of an angel and the fires of an elder demon. The heros went to heaven for help, but were denied because all the rules were being followed. They went to Purgatory, and Hal stepped forward and said "I saved the world from freezing, now let me save it from burning." The Spectre eventually chose him as a new host. His series then went in the late 90's and early into this decade, and ended at issue 27. Then Rebirth happened to bring Hal Jordan back to life, shortly after that, the then hostless Wrath kicked off Day of Vengeance. And eventually got a new host through Gods intervention in Crisis 4.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, that origin is from the very end of volume 3, which was mid 90s, there was only 62 issues. That was issue 60. After that, Corrigan moved on to Heaven, and Day of Judgement happened, where Azmodel the fallen angel bonded with the Spectre from the feathers of an angel and the fires of an elder demon. The heros went to heaven for help, but were denied because all the rules were being followed. They went to Purgatory, and Hal stepped forward and said "I saved the world from freezing, now let me save it from burning." The Spectre eventually chose him as a new host. His series then went in the late 90's and early into this decade, and ended at issue 27. Then Rebirth happened to bring Hal Jordan back to life, shortly after that, the then hostless Wrath kicked off Day of Vengeance. And eventually got a new host through Gods intervention in Crisis 4.

I have rebirth, none of vol.4, about 20 or so issues of vol.3, all of vol.1 and most of vol.2, but do you know the event I'm talking about?

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I have rebirth, none of vol.4, about 20 or so issues of vol.3, all of vol.1 and most of vol.2, but do you know the event I'm talking about?

Thanks for the info. Not offhand, which series?

Originally posted by Juntai
Not offhand, which series?

I pretty sure it was later in vol.3, tommorow I can give you more information. It's just a little late to pull open the comic boxes tonight.

Sorry hopefully I will have it for tommorow, but it was probally one of my favorite Spectre stories ever.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I pretty sure it was later in vol.3, tommorow I can give you more information. It's just a little late to pull open the comic boxes tonight.

Sorry hopefully I will have it for tommorow, but it was probally one of my favorite Spectre stories ever. If it's from volume 3, I should have it, I'm only missing a couple issues from it.

Well i agree that The Spectre would win, but still don't understand why juntai is saying The Spectre is a part of God??? It is not! The Spectre = The Wrath, The Word/Logos = a part of God/The Presence. read Spectre Volume 3/4

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i agree that The Spectre would win, but still don't understand why juntai is saying The Spectre is a part of God??? It is not! The Spectre = The Wrath, The Word/Logos = a part of God/The Presence. read Spectre Volume 3/4 I own it. I've been quoting from it. The Spectre clearly identifies itself as part of God, and that the The Wrath is just a perception people have of it. I posted that just a bit up the thread. It's just what's on panel.

I'd personally vote against Talisman being able to control Spectre.

I'm going to go back to GS's Quasar analogy. Quasar is said to control all energy. By this logic alone, he should be able to take over something like the Phoenix Force, but he has never, ever done anything to even hint that he could control energy at that level of power. Comparatively, Talisman is said to control all spirits, and by this logic alone, she should be able to take over the Spectre. However, she has never, ever done anything to even hint that she could control a spirit at that level of power.

The Spectre is an aspect of GOD. Regardless of what's been said about her powers, even high end skyfathers are nothing compared to the Spectre. Hell, he's proven to be superior to a group of the highest skyfathers around (Quintessence) more than once. She's powerful, yes, but she's A) Different than the others who have messed with the Spectre's powers and B) nowhere NEAR as powerful as he is. Basically, this isa curbstomp and a half.

I know you own it, I own it too, and all of volume 4, and read history pages of 3. All saying the perception is The Wrath/Spectre, The Logos identifies itself as a piece of God, the Spectre/Wrath does not identify itself as God or a piece of God, it is a fallen angel transformed to serve The Word. Reread Volume 4 and Rebirth. You have said this time and time again Juntai, yah i love the Spectre too, but hes not a aspect of The Presence.

Originally posted by kevdude
I know you own it, I own it too, and all of volume 4, and read history pages of 3. All saying the perception is The Wrath/Spectre, The Logos identifies itself as a piece of God, the Spectre/Wrath does not identify itself as God or a piece of God, it is a fallen angel transformed to serve The Word. Reread Volume 4 and Rebirth. You have said this time and time again Juntai, yah i love the Spectre too, but hes not a aspect of The Presence. The Wrath is how people percieve The Logoz, which is what the host soul is tied to. It's all written right in the comics dude, I don't understand how you're not getting it.

Yes The Wrath/Spectre is how ppl perceive the Logoz but that does not me it IS the Logos. The whole time The Spectre has been going around fighting Shazam, CM and Phantom Stranger and hundreds of others, that is what The Wrath does and is, just another name for The Wrath is The Spectre. The Wrath/Spectre was trying to take control of Hal and get him to switch to vengeance, and eventually he wore him down and Hal did switch. Everything fits together what I'm saying, Maybe your not looking hard enough or just don't want to look

the reason that the spectre didnt get all the power he needed from absorbing all those magical beings or whatever is cause i believe that it was said in wiki about alex luthor that he was using that energy for his own uses which is why he wanted the spectre to go crazy.

Originally posted by kevdude
Yes The Wrath/Spectre is how ppl perceive the Logoz but that does not me it IS the Logos. The whole time The Spectre has been going around fighting Shazam, CM and Phantom Stranger and hundreds of others, that is what The Wrath does and is, just another name for The Wrath is The Spectre. The Wrath/Spectre was trying to take control of Hal and get him to switch to vengeance, and eventually he wore him down and Hal did switch. Everything fits together what I'm saying, Maybe your not looking hard enough or just don't want to look See, this is where the wording gets messed up, I consider the character as a whole "The Spectre", as he's called such, even when The Wrath is not present, even when he's not judging. The Wrath is embodiment of Wrath, and The Logoz is what the powersource is when all the masks are removed. I try to do that to make it less confusing, but I can see where people get caught up in the wording. The Wrath is not The Logoz, it's an imprint on it.

Forget what Black Alice did. Come up with the scans to show first off that Talisman controlled skyfather level spirits and then show proof that she can control abstract level spirits. Without such proof, your argument is void from the get go.

if she can controll ALL spirits why didnt she just controll Llans spirit or his armys?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forget what Black Alice did. Come up with the scans to show first off that Talisman controlled skyfather level spirits and then show proof that she can control abstract level spirits. Without such proof, your argument is void from the get go. Way to get down to it.

At first I thought he was just playing around, but he seems to seriously believe that she could feasibly control Spectre. I believe she could try attacking the host, the host spirit is vulnerable until it discerns what must be judged and unleashes the wrath.

Originally posted by Mider
if she can controll ALL spirits why didnt she just controll Llans spirit or his armys?

Uhhhh she did, didn't I say that? Also she can't control Llan since basically he isn't a spirit.

and GS here is TAlisman controlling the Great Beasts who are skyfather
1. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight38-18.jpg
2. http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/A_Flight9/AlphaFlight38-19.jpg

She has summoned the spirit of death, the spirit of time and space and various other spirits.

Originally posted by Juntai
Way to get down to it.

At first I thought he was just playing around, but he seems to seriously believe that she could feasibly control Spectre. I believe she could try attacking the host, the host spirit is vulnerable until it discerns what must be judged and unleashes the wrath.

No it's a serious comment, she has been shown to control skyfather beings from the spirit world and she is the Gods avatar as well as the Spirit Binder. Also, like I said a hundred times which you guys seem to ignore physically she can't beat him, her best and only hope was if she could control him due to he is a spirit.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No it's a serious comment, she has been shown to control skyfather beings from the spirit world and she is the Gods avatar as well as the Spirit Binder. Also, like I said a hundred times which you guys seem to ignore physically she can't beat him, her best and only hope was if she could control him due to he is a spirit.

And you cant even prove that she can control a spirit of the Spectres power level, therefore you cant continue this argument any further. Give it up, its dead end.

Originally posted by Juntai
Way to get down to it.

At first I thought he was just playing around, but he seems to seriously believe that she could feasibly control Spectre. I believe she could try attacking the host, the host spirit is vulnerable until it discerns what must be judged and unleashes the wrath.

Same here. I thought it was just a messaround. To think that someone could try to create a credible thread pitting Talisman against Spectre.

Usually id be all over a thread like this but i refuse to take this seriously. The logic is elementary and the arguments poorly supported.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No it's a serious comment, she has been shown to control skyfather beings from the spirit world and she is the Gods avatar as well as the Spirit Binder. Also, like I said a hundred times which you guys seem to ignore physically she can't beat him, her best and only hope was if she could control him due to he is a spirit. I'm not trying to really poke fun of you for your belief, I'm really just more suspended in disbelief that anyone thinks character shown as among the mightest of all characters, a capable godslayer, will lose to an Earth mystic through simple spirit control techniques.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And you cant even prove that she can control a spirit of the Spectres power level, therefore you cant continue this argument any further. Give it up, its dead end.

Huh? I did, and what did I say several times in this thread? No I can't prove it if I knew for sure she could control him then I wouldn't have made this thread. Are you guys reading what I posted?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Same here. I thought it was just a messaround. To think that someone could try to create a credible thread pitting Talisman against Spectre.

Usually id be all over a thread like this but i refuse to take this seriously. The logic is elementary and the arguments poorly supported.

Poorly supported? I have shown scans of how Talisman is said to manipulate all spirits and shown how she has manipulate skyfather beings because they were from the spirit world.

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm not trying to really poke fun of you for your belief, I'm really just more suspended in disbelief that anyone thinks character shown as among the mightest of all characters, a capable godslayer, will lose to an Earth mystic through simple spirit control techniques.

Actually I never said Talisman or Spectre would lose, just posted evidence for Talisman since let's be honest no one knows about her. Also as I said before she can't match up with him physically, her only way and I mean only way she could win if the manipulation would work.

Didn't Juntai already explain that Spectre isn't actually a spirit? That's just our perception of him.

Originally posted by batdude123
Didn't Juntai already explain that Spectre isn't actually a spirit? That's just our perception of him.

Yes, but she can manipulate the host spirit. Heck the Great Beasts arn't spirits but she manipulated them just because they were from the Spirit world.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes, but she can manipulate the host spirit. Heck the Great Beasts arn't spirits but she manipulated them just because they were from the Spirit world.

But the host spirit is protected by the Wrath who is vastly more powerful than anything Talisman has been shown to be able to control. Speculation, Talisman goes down 10/10.

^

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But the host spirit is protected by the Wrath who is vastly more powerful than anything Talisman has been shown to be able to control. Speculation, Talisman goes down 10/10.

That's fine, that's what this debate is about if she could or not. You asked for scans stating that Llan is the source of evil I provided that, you asked for scans showing Talisman controlling skyfather level creatures and I did that. I provided scans that Talisman is unqiue and special and the gods avatar, and the Binder of Spirits. Do not dare say my arguements were poorly supported.

As I said countless times, yet people think that I have said Talisman can match him power-wise...which she can't, her only bet is IF she could control him. If not then yes 10/10 for Spectre.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
That's fine, that's what this debate is about if she could or not. You asked for scans stating that Llan is the source of evil I provided that, you asked for scans showing Talisman controlling skyfather level creatures and I did that. I provided scans that Talisman is unqiue and special and the gods avatar, and the Binder of Spirits. Do not dare say my arguements were poorly supported.

As I said countless times, yet people think that I have said Talisman can match him power-wise...which she can't, her only bet is IF she could control him. If not then yes 10/10 for Spectre.

Your arguments for saying that Talisman could beat Spectre were indeed poorly supported. None of what you provided is anywhere near sufficient to make anyone with common sense even entertain such a notion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your arguments for saying that Talisman could beat Spectre were indeed poorly supported. None of what you provided is anywhere near sufficient to make anyone with common sense even entertain such a notion.

AHHH! I never said that, I posted scans to show Talisman's power. Read what I have said, and no what is unreasonable the Gods Avatar and the Binder of SPirits manipulating spirits who has manipulate skyfathers with no trouble manipulate Spectre who is also a spirit. You on the other hand have not brought anything to this debate other than trying to insult me.

Still couldnt be bothered to look at that LLan source of all evil stuff, but i will 2morrow. As i said yesterday sounds like hyperbole. One character saying it in a comic book doesnt necessarily make it true especially when more powerful and impressive characters than Llan have been shown on panel who favour evil. Doesnt add up. Hyperbole. Either way i've got the issues myself i'll hav a look.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Still couldnt be bothered to look at that LLan source of all evil stuff, but i will 2morrow. As i said yesterday sounds like hyperbole. One character saying it in a comic book doesnt necessarily make it true especially when more powerful and impressive characters than Llan have been shown on panel who favour evil. Doesnt add up. Hyperbole. Either way i've got the issues myself i'll hav a look.

Go for it they state it several times, and he is the strongest of the Ancient Evils. More powerful than Llan? bah! What you saw was Llan who was bound by rules of conduct that limited his power. Which was also said.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Go for it they state it several times, and he is the strongest of the Ancient Evils. More powerful than Llan? bah! What you saw was Llan who was bound by rules of conduct that limited his power. Which was also said.

Irrelevant. There are characters who favour evil who have better feats than LLan, therefore such statements are contradicted and have not been shown to be conclusively the case. Is it ever defined what the Ancient Evils are? For all we it could be a particular group of malevolent entities according to whatever mythology and folklore Talisman and her father prescribe to. It might NOT be a term that describes all evil. Given the fact that as aforementioned LLans showings conflict with your interpretation and also that Mephisto has been referred to by cosmic beings as the premiere evil being on Earth its a notion thats not supported outside of Alpha Flight im afraid to say

Either way i'll provide any scans 2morrow. Just ask.

It's a term described by all evil, since Eternity is the one who created the rules which Llan must follow by. As said Llan is the source of evil that enters this world

1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-03.jpg

Next worse thing to the devil himself
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-09.jpg

Of all the ancient evils, he is the strongest
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-20.jpg

I have to agree with him, she is young and freshhh.

Oh and since you have the issues read Alpha Flight #83, which dealt with the previous Talisman battling Llan and talked aobut his powers.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's a term described by all evil, since Eternity is the one who created the rules which Llan must follow by. As said Llan is the source of evil that enters this world

1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-03.jpg

Next worse thing to the devil himself
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-09.jpg

Of all the ancient evils, he is the strongest
1. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight72-20.jpg

HYPERBOLE!!!! If they are the only reasons behind your positioning of LLan then your argument is about as water tight as a sieve.

There are far too many unknowns. LLan has no feats to back up Talsimans words, the ancient evils as aforementioned could just be those of the mythology and lore Talisman and her father prescribe to and NOT all evil in Marvel as you have chosen to interpret. LLan has not featured or been referred to by anyone outside of Alpha Flight as he most certainly would as the greatest evil in Marvel. There are many cosmic entities who favour evil and yet you would have us believe that an obscure character solely mentioned in Alpha Flight is greater than them merely because of the words of Talisman, words which have yet to be proven to be anything but hyperbole?

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6725/quasar240146uk.th.jpg

Sorry mate. Nothing conclusive, not buying it.

if Llan cant even go above the power of eternity why would he defeat the spectre and llan can probably defeat talisman arent they equal in power?

Originally posted by Mider
if Llan cant even go above the power of eternity why would he defeat the spectre and llan can probably defeat talisman arent they equal in power?

What are you talking about? It wasn't said Llan was weaker than Eternity just that Eternity and the other law making cosmics made the rules. I NEVER even said Llan would defeat the Spectre or even talked about him fighting the Spectre, please guys read what I'm saying.

Ok let me get this straight.
Basically you put a character in a match where they have only one possible chance of winning.

Ok lets see the best thing you have to show us Mungi is her controlling Skyfather level beings right. Next you tell us her title as Binder of Spirits and that she is powered by Gods. I hate to say it but going from there thats not much to help form an argument as to why she could possibly take control of Spectre a being that makes Skyfathers look like jokes.

Now you still are basing this off of the fact that she once said that she can control all spirits. Lets be realistic here many characters make claims like Juggernaut says he is unstoppable while maybe one thing as shown to stop nothing else has does that mean we should take it is scripture that if he went against Spectre he could run over him I mean even Juggernaut is powered by Gods right.

That is where logic falls apart in that in your attempt to gain recognition for a person you haven't presented that as much as you say. Like I said you have shown her once manipulating Skyfather level beings Spectre can rewrite existence is a part of the Supreme Power of the Multiverse there is a big difference in the power level you presented and what Spectre is.

Now if you could show her manipulating beings above Eternity you main gain more credibilty with this but to base a decision on what you have given now well I wouldn't side with you thats for sure.

Originally posted by newjak86
Ok let me get this straight.
Basically you put a character in a match where they have only one possible chance of winning.

Ok lets see the best thing you have to show us Mungi is her controlling Skyfather level beings right. Next you tell us her title as Binder of Spirits and that she is powered by Gods. I hate to say it but going from there thats not much to help form an argument as to why she could possibly take control of Spectre a being that makes Skyfathers look like jokes.

Now you still are basing this off of the fact that she once said that she can control all spirits. Lets be realistic here many characters make claims like Juggernaut says he is unstoppable while maybe one thing as shown to stop nothing else has does that mean we should take it is scripture that if he went against Spectre he could run over him I mean even Juggernaut is powered by Gods right.

That is where logic falls apart in that in your attempt to gain recognition for a person you haven't presented that as much as you say. Like I said you have shown her once manipulating Skyfather level beings Spectre can rewrite existence is a part of the Supreme Power of the Multiverse there is a big difference in the power level you presented and what Spectre is.

Now if you could show her manipulating beings above Eternity you main gain more credibilty with this but to base a decision on what you have given now well I wouldn't side with you thats for sure.

Correct, as I said she can't match him up physically. This is a debate wether or not she could control him or not.

There were examples to show Talisman has great power and is underestimated in the grand scheme of things. Could she beat Spectre in a straight up fight? No.

Talisman is powered by the gods, which gods were never stated. She is unique there is no one else that has her powerset. Do I think she can win in a fight with the Spectre? hell no.

Yes I know Spectre outclasses her in strength, but this debate was wether or not she could control the Spectre. She could control the host, but like others said the Spectre aspect would eventually step in. I agreed to that.

AHHHH! I didn't even say Talisman wins, just posted evidence about her powers and gave a better indication who she is.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Correct, as I said she can't match him up physically. This is a debate wether or not she could control him or not.

There were examples to show Talisman has great power and is underestimated in the grand scheme of things. Could she beat Spectre in a straight up fight? No.

Talisman is powered by the gods, which gods were never stated. She is unique there is no one else that has her powerset. Do I think she can win in a fight with the Spectre? hell no.

Yes I know Spectre outclasses her in strength, but this debate was wether or not she could control the Spectre. She could control the host, but like others said the Spectre aspect would eventually step in. I agreed to that.

AHHHH! I didn't even say Talisman wins, just posted evidence about her powers and gave a better indication who she is. I know perfectly well what your trying to say but the exact opposite can be said for what your trying to say.

You say we don't know what Gods power and that they may be the greatest of all true but then agian they could be nothing more than Elder Gods which doesn't really help your arguement. You said that she once said that she controls all spirits and that she is the Binder of Souls I told many characters go by Titles and say things about themselves that aren't true hence my Juggernaut comment.

This debate is about whether she can control them but in turn what you have given us is a saying and her controling Skyfather level beings and saying she is backed by Gods. Nothing really enough to say she could even begin to control a being on the level of Spectre.

Also if you don't want to say who wins or not and was simply trying to share something about a character wouldn't
A) Be better to talk about it in the Alpha Flight Repsect thread or
B) Put her in a fight that is much more interesting and where you could pull more of her feats besides one and a saying.

Originally posted by newjak86
I know perfectly well what your trying to say but the exact opposite can be said for what your trying to say.

You say we don't know what Gods power and that they may be the greatest of all true but then agian they could be nothing more than Elder Gods which doesn't really help your arguement. You said that she once said that she controls all spirits and that she is the Binder of Souls I told many characters go by Titles and say things about themselves that aren't true hence my Juggernaut comment.

This debate is about whether she can control them but in turn what you have given us is a saying and her controling Skyfather level beings and saying she is backed by Gods. Nothing really enough to say she could even begin to control a being on the level of Spectre.

Also if you don't want to say who wins or not and was simply trying to share something about a character wouldn't
A) Be better to talk about it in the Alpha Flight Repsect thread or
B) Put her in a fight that is much more interesting and where you could pull more of her feats besides one and a saying.

But that's not what I'm implying, like as said Spectre could just think her out of existance. No way could she match that kinda fire-power.

But I'm not debating who wins, my main thing was posting information about Talisman. Since let's be honest who actually knows about her? Well in the comics every spirit or a being from the spirit world she came into contact with she controlled so that matches up. Could she control the Spectre? up for debate, hence the thread. If I knew for a fact she could I wouldn't have made this thread.

Indeed, this is merely to generate debate. However, people began claiming I said thing I never said or even implied and then it just went down hill from there.

A) No, because battles help give a character more spotlight and more information. Not everyone looks at the respect thread
B) Oh she has way more feats posted in the respect thread, such as her teleporting an entire city with over hundreds of thousand of people in it. I just didn't think most of them needed to be posted, since she can't match his power. Her ONLY chance was IF she could control him.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
But that's not what I'm implying, like as said Spectre could just think her out of existance. No way could she match that kinda fire-power.

But I'm not debating who wins, my main thing was posting information about Talisman. Since let's be honest who actually knows about her? Well in the comics every spirit or a being from the spirit world she came into contact with she controlled so that matches up. Could she control the Spectre? up for debate, hence the thread. If I knew for a fact she could I wouldn't have made this thread.

Indeed, this is merely to generate debate. However, people began claiming I said thing I never said or even implied and then it just went down hill from there.

A) No, because battles help give a character more spotlight and more information. Not everyone looks at the respect thread
B) Oh she has way more feats posted in the respect thread, such as her teleporting an entire city with over hundreds of thousand of people in it. I just didn't think most of them needed to be posted, since she can't match his power. Her ONLY chance was IF she could control him. Every being from the spirit world and since when did Spectre come from the spirit world last time I checked he was a part of God. Could she control Spectre not with the Info you have given.A)

I read the entire thread basically all you did was back up your claim that she could control him which is what I've been talking about I never tried to base this on the fire power both bring simply trying to state that there is a difference between the power levels in your feat and what Spectre is.

A) is true
B) I meant to place her in a different fight where you aren't relying a one shot in the dark feat but instead could show the versatility of the character as well.

Originally posted by newjak86
Every being from the spirit world and since when did Spectre come from the spirit world last time I checked he was a part of God. Could she control Spectre not with the Info you have given.A)

I read the entire thread basically all you did was back up your claim that she could control him which is what I've been talking about I never tried to base this on the fire power both bring simply trying to state that there is a difference between the power levels in your feat and what Spectre is.

A) is true
B) I meant to place her in a different fight where you aren't relying a one shot in the dark feat but instead could show the versatility of the character as well.

Going by host spirit manipulation, since the Spectre aspect is part of the Logoz. Nope, I was expecting more of a debate rather than people just simply attacking me and claiming things I never said.

Well that's all I can do, since she can;t match him up phsyically. So I had to provide evidence about how she can control spirits since power-wise he surpasses her. Well what I mentioned earlier against beings stronger than her she actually controlled stronger appirations than her just because they were spirits.

A)...
B) Oh I gotcha, and it's hard to put a magical user against most people since most magic users are plot making frenzy monsters. Especially using a character not as well known as Talisman.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Going by host spirit manipulation, since the Spectre aspect is part of the Logoz. Nope, I was expecting more of a debate rather than people just simply attacking me and claiming things I never said.

Well that's all I can do, since she can;t match him up phsyically. So I had to provide evidence about how she can control spirits since power-wise he surpasses her. Well what I mentioned earlier against beings stronger than her she actually controlled stronger appirations than her just because they were spirits.

A)...
B) Oh I gotcha, and it's hard to put a magical user against most people since most magic users are plot making frenzy monsters. Especially using a character not as well known as Talisman. I'm not attacking just presenting what I've seen.

She was able to take control of beings stronger than her yes but you said she is backed by Gods so it could be said that its because of them and not her and since we don't know the true nature of the Gods we can't place base anything on the idea they could be stronger than Spectre simply by one showing against Skyfather level beings.

I understand what you mean about magic users. Still though if you want a character to get more spot light you got to put them in interesting matches that show what they can do. Then you just got to stay steady and show what that character can do. GS did it for Phoenix thats how people find out what a character is capable of.
For instance a good couple ideas could be Talisman vs Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna. Other magic users maybe Thor.

Originally posted by newjak86
I'm not attacking just presenting what I've seen.

She was able to take control of beings stronger than her yes but you said she is backed by Gods so it could be said that its because of them and not her and since we don't know the true nature of the Gods we can't place base anything on the idea they could be stronger than Spectre simply by one showing against Skyfather level beings.

I understand what you mean about magic users. Still though if you want a character to get more spot light you got to put them in interesting matches that show what they can do. Then you just got to stay steady and show what that character can do. GS did it for Phoenix thats how people find out what a character is capable of.
For instance a good couple ideas could be Talisman vs Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna. Other magic users maybe Thor.

Oh no I'm not saying you were, oh and I just found more evidence of Talisman manipulating the Gods of the Arctic twice, and Tanaraq twice. So Talisman has done it a few times, regardless moot point.

Correct, but that's why I expected somewhat of a debate to discuss these factors. Also we never got an explanation of how she does the things she does. Just a vague explanation she is the Native-American messiah.

Oh I know, but with most of the characters of Alpha Flight it's almost impossible to make a good matchup. Check the respect thread for yourself, I only just gotten into them recently and I was shocked how strong they are.

Most of those have been done, but since Talisman is so unknown they automatically side with the more well known character. Hence my dilemia.

Spectre would win this fight. Talisman would be earesed. Talisman isn't Lucifer neither LT level so Talisman is screwed.

Why was this brought back? we all agreed Talisman loses, the entire debate rest on the fact since she was the binder of spirits could she control Spectre? we all agreed...nope.

Yes. But the point is. You thought too much of her. You even thought she could control one of DC's strongest character. And that makes me wonder...

I thought of what was stated in the comics, did I think she could go one on one with Spectre? hell no. Even stated that several times, and then people manipulated things I said and twisted it.

Just to remind you of Alpha Flight v1 #100. Read it. Biggest PIS ever....I mean come on....You know what I'm talking about right?

Originally posted by Rewmac
Just to remind you of Alpha Flight v1 #100. Read it. Biggest PIS ever....I mean come on....You know what I'm talking about right?

Errr? We know Galactus was weakened...severely, he was far from full powered and I mean far. Couldn't even use cosmic blasts due to being in that dimension. I've never claimed it was a full powered Galactus....ever

That's why I'm not mad at you at all man...

haha very good, just making sure.