Its not fair

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I must say I adore the sith but I do hate Vader and Sidious. I agree with your comments about THEM but the comment about Dooku. Thats pretty nasty. You should remember that Dooku himself was once I highly ranked and much respected member of the jedi order. Shouldnt have some credit for that? Then add in the fact he is a powerful sith lord which makes him by far my fav character!!! Palpatine was once a respected and esteemed politician whose popularity won him the Chancelorship of the Republic. This is the kuniving bastards that lured the beloved Dooku to the Sith in the first place, the *sshole who twisted the galaxy around his evil finger in a more sinister way than any other before him, worse than what Dooku could ever do. Not to mention he was also a powerful Sith Lord, moreso than Dooku I hear.

And to think, this is the guy whom almost everybody except the Jedi loved. Now that's character.

All the Sith are SOB's to me though.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Palpatine was once a respected and esteemed politician whose popularity won him the Chancelorship of the Republic. This is the kuniving bastards that lured the beloved Dooku to the Sith in the first place, the *sshole who twisted the galaxy around his evil finger in a more sinister way than any other before him, worse than what Dooku could ever do. Not to mention he was also a powerful Sith Lord, moreso than Dooku I hear.

And to think, this is the guy whom almost everybody except the Jedi loved. Now that's character.

All the Sith are SOB's to me though.

Im not saying that I like Sidious. Quite the opposite actually. Dooku was the best in the SW universe during his time as a jedi and after he became a sith lord. He didnt want to control the galaxy, he was just doing what Sids told him. But I think if he decided he wanted more power than he already had (and thats alot of power) he could have just continued to increase the CIS with more star systems and overthrown the Republic anyway. And Dooku was loved by everyone in the jedi order, while he was a jedi and after he had left. Sids was never liked by the jedi. Sids needs to act like a pathetic old man to gain allies while Dooku can just use his diplomatic tongue. I think this means that Dooku has more character. Overall Dooku would be a far better ruler than that bastard Sidious. Everybody likes and trusts Dooku while all Sids can do is sit in his oversized chair on top of the Death Star.

Finally about you saying all sith are sobs. I have to agree with you on that except for Dooku. George Lucas didnt make the Sith look particularly spectacular. I would still rather be a sith than a jedi but in the movies the jedi are far cooler than the sith (except for Dooku)!

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im not saying that I like Sidious. Quite the opposite actually. Dooku was the best in the SW universe during his time as a jedi and after he became a sith lord. He didnt want to control the galaxy, he was just doing what Sids told him. But I think if he decided he wanted more power than he already had (and thats alot of power) he could have just continued to increase the CIS with more star systems and overthrown the Republic anyway. And Dooku was loved by everyone in the jedi order, while he was a jedi and after he had left. Sids was never liked by the jedi. Sids needs to act like a pathetic old man to gain allies while Dooku can just use his diplomatic tongue. I think this means that Dooku has more character. Overall Dooku would be a far better ruler than that bastard Sidious. Everybody likes and trusts Dooku while all Sids can do is sit in his oversized chair on top of the Death Star.

Finally about you saying all sith are sobs. I have to agree with you on that except for Dooku. George Lucas didnt make the Sith look particularly spectacular. I would still rather be a sith than a jedi but in the movies the jedi are far cooler than the sith (except for Dooku)! Dooku never did "qualify" as a Sith, in persona anyway. He neither looked, sounded, even acted much like a Sith. That was always one of his advantages. And no doubt he would have been an excellent ruler. However, once it became widely known that he was a leading a droid army in a Seperatist movement to crush the Republic, then he would have been feared and hated. Certainly that would keep a populace in line, but that's exactly the attitude of Palpatine that inspired a rebellion, no matter his charisma.

Also, there is no substantially strong evidence to prove that Dooku was more powerful than Sidious. There are tons of "what ifs," and the whole controversy surrounding the Dooku-Yoda-Sidious saber triangle is not enough to dispel the fact that Sidious was the master, the one behind EVERYTHING, and the one came out both victorious and ALIVE. Fact remains that Dooku was inferior to Sidious, and likely always would be even if he had lived.

Still... cool character nonetheless.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dooku never did "qualify" as a Sith, in persona anyway. He neither looked, sounded, even acted much like a Sith. That was always one of his advantages. And no doubt he would have been an excellent ruler. However, once it became widely known that he was a leading a droid army in a Seperatist movement to crush the Republic, then he would have been feared and hated. Certainly that would keep a populace in line, but that's exactly the attitude of Palpatine that inspired a rebellion, no matter his charisma.

Also, there is no substantially strong evidence to prove that Dooku was more powerful than Sidious. There are tons of "what ifs," and the whole controversy surrounding the Dooku-Yoda-Sidious saber triangle is not enough to dispel the fact that Sidious was the master, the one behind EVERYTHING, and the one came out both victorious and ALIVE. Fact remains that Dooku was inferior to Sidious, and likely always would be even if he had lived.

Still... cool character nonetheless.

I think that a Sidious vs Dooku fight would be a spectacular fight to watch. It pains me to admit that Sids probably was better seeing he was the master and all but I dont think that he would win by much in a duel. Dooku saber skills are superior to anyones but his force abilities are nothing compared to Sids. I think 7/10 times Sidious would win but Dooku would be victorious in the other three. I also think that a lot of Sidious plans hinged on the ability of Dooku. It was Dooku who found the template for the Clone Army and it was Dooku who convinced systems to leave the Republic. If Sidious hadnt taken Dooku in to be his apprentice there is a good chance that there wouldnt be a galactic empire.
When you say that Dooku wasnt a sith I think you are right to an extent. I think that he became a sith but didnt have the evilness to make him as sith like as Sidious. He definetly had the traits of the sith, cockyness being one of them but he just wasnt overly evil like sith are meant to be. He works this to his advantage however, being able to stay under the eye of the jedi but also convert thousands of systems to his cause. But when all is done and said the great Count Dooku is still the best and most important character in the Star Wars saga!!! big grin

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I think that a Sidious vs Dooku fight would be a spectacular fight to watch. It pains me to admit that Sids probably was better seeing he was the master and all but I dont think that he would win by much in a duel. Dooku saber skills are superior to anyones but his force abilities are nothing compared to Sids. I think 7/10 times Sidious would win but Dooku would be victorious in the other three. I also think that a lot of Sidious plans hinged on the ability of Dooku. It was Dooku who found the template for the Clone Army and it was Dooku who convinced systems to leave the Republic. If Sidious hadnt taken Dooku in to be his apprentice there is a good chance that there wouldnt be a galactic empire.
When you say that Dooku wasnt a sith I think you are right to an extent. I think that he became a sith but didnt have the evilness to make him as sith like as Sidious. He definetly had the traits of the sith, cockyness being one of them but he just wasnt overly evil like sith are meant to be. He works this to his advantage however, being able to stay under the eye of the jedi but also convert thousands of systems to his cause. But when all is done and said the great Count Dooku is still the best and most important character in the Star Wars saga!!! big grin

No doubt that the Empire would be quite like it was without Dooku. But still, Palaptine was no fool, and didn't entrust one minon with all his plans. IF Dooku hadn't been seduced in the first place, it's likely Sifo Dyas would have just taken over, though perhaps not as smoothly as with Dooku. If Palpatine could manipulate his way to Chanellor of the Republic, then I don't think anything would hinder his rise to Emperor. ANakin wouls still have been an easy target.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
No doubt that the Empire would be quite like it was without Dooku. But still, Palaptine was no fool, and didn't entrust one minon with all his plans. IF Dooku hadn't been seduced in the first place, it's likely Sifo Dyas would have just taken over, though perhaps not as smoothly as with Dooku. If Palpatine could manipulate his way to Chanellor of the Republic, then I don't think anything would hinder his rise to Emperor. ANakin wouls still have been an easy target.

Dooku must have been entrusted with all the plans except for the one, the one where he was going to be killed off.Dookus no dumbass and if Sids was keeping something it wouldnt take him long to find out. Plus Dooku was entrusted with the plans to the Death Star, the emperors favourite toy. He must have been extremely trusted by Sidious to be given that sort of info.And I would rather think that if Sids hadnt found Dooku as his apprentice the he would never have become the Emperor. If it wasnt for Dooku there would be no Galactic Empire, no Death Star, no Darth Vader and probably still a jedi order.

Who was Sifo Dyas btw?

Tangible God

Dyas was the one of the other fallen Jedi, of the Lost Twenty to which Dooku was the last. He was the one who Palpatine ordered to comission the Clone Army. As an act of loyalty, Palpatine had Dooku kill Dyas and take over the Clone project.

Palpatine was a smart man and had been planning this for some time, he would have anticipated setbacks. If Dooku turned out to be a dud, then Palpatine would have found another way of coming to power, albeit it might've taken longer.

And Palpatine didn't tell Dooku EVERYTHING. I can't recall any source that said that Dooku was behind the conception of the Death Star, so Palpatine would have known about it even without Dooku. And then there's the whole Plagueis conspiracy in which either Plagueis or Palpatine could have been the true father of Anakin, thus ensuring Anakin's rise as Dark Lord, Dooku or not. Dooku was not privy to the most secretive of Palpatine's intentions, nor was he the most powerful. Everything revolved around Palpatine's decisions, not Dooku's.

Revolver Ocelot

Dooku was just a placeholder between Maul and Vader. He was never meant to last.

He was a great character, the best PT character, and was probably more useful than Maul and Vader, but he was never intended to be Sid's boy forever. He didn't have much time left on the ticker either.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Dyas was the one of the other fallen Jedi, of the Lost Twenty to which Dooku was the last. He was the one who Palpatine ordered to comission the Clone Army. As an act of loyalty, Palpatine had Dooku kill Dyas and take over the Clone project.

Palpatine was a smart man and had been planning this for some time, he would have anticipated setbacks. If Dooku turned out to be a dud, then Palpatine would have found another way of coming to power, albeit it might've taken longer.

And Palpatine didn't tell Dooku EVERYTHING. I can't recall any source that said that Dooku was behind the conception of the Death Star, so Palpatine would have known about it even without Dooku. And then there's the whole Plagueis conspiracy in which either Plagueis or Palpatine could have been the true father of Anakin, thus ensuring Anakin's rise as Dark Lord, Dooku or not. Dooku was not privy to the most secretive of Palpatine's intentions, nor was he the most powerful. Everything revolved around Palpatine's decisions, not Dooku's.

Thanks for the info on Dyas. I understand that Dooku didnt create the Death Star but he certainly had knowledge of it. In AOTC he had the plans for the Death Star and could have destroyed them whenever he wanted to. And you do raise a good point on Anakin and his father theory. I will change what I said earlier and say that Anakin would still eventually become the Dark Lord of the sith. Although maybe he would become the apprentice to Dooku. Who knows. Then together they could overthrow Sids. I still feel though if Dooku did not co-operate with Palpatine his rise to power would have taken alot longer. And if Dooku had actually opposed Palps. Palpatine would have been finished if Dooku had opposed him. Dooku could reveal Palps true identity to the Jedi. He then would have kept using the CIS to pummel the republic with the jedis help. So in theory Dooku had alot of control of Sidious but didnt want to use it.

When you say that Dooku didnt have much time left on his ticker Revolver Ocelot, I think you are talking crap. Dookus age didnt effect his abilities at all and there was certainly no evidence that he was close to death. Look at yoda for example. He id hundreds of years older than Dooku and he is the greatest jedi of his time!

Revolver Ocelot

Yoda's species is different. All muppets live long.

Dooku was 83. You can't expect him to last much longer! Maybe... 20 years tops?

Rampant ox

But Dooku would have wtf pwned Luke and wiped out the alliance to give the Emperor complete control of the galaxy in 20 years. Vader was to pussy to kill Luke, not smart enough to beat the alliance and only lasted for another 20 odd years anyway. So it would have been better for the Emperor to choose Dooku over Vader. The only reason I can think of to why the Emperor chose Vader is that he was scared of Dooku. He couldnt manipulate Dooku like he could Vader and Dooku had better lightsaber skills than Sids. So give Dooku another 10-15 years to brush up on his force abilities and I think Dooku would have overthrown the Emperor.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But Dooku would have wtf pwned Luke and wiped out the alliance to give the Emperor complete control of the galaxy in 20 years. Vader was to pussy to kill Luke, not smart enough to beat the alliance and only lasted for another 20 odd years anyway. So it would have been better for the Emperor to choose Dooku over Vader. The only reason I can think of to why the Emperor chose Vader is that he was scared of Dooku. He couldnt manipulate Dooku like he could Vader and Dooku had better lightsaber skills than Sids. So give Dooku another 10-15 years to brush up on his force abilities and I think Dooku would have overthrown the Emperor. Possibly.

Key-word there. Again, there's no solid evidence to support the theory of Dooku's superiority in saber skills. Remember that Palaptine would not have let his apprentice become more powerful than him. He wasn't like the past Sith, HE wanted power, noone else could have it. If Dooku was progressing at a rate that Palpatine would sweat at, he would move quickly to have Dooku "removed."

And it's unkown as to how absorbed Dooku was with the Dark Side, so it's unkown if he would have used it to prolong his life. He was already in his eighties afterall. And also, with age, doesn't guarantee power. He may have for all we know declined in strength. Again, "may have."

And don't forget that he wanted a MORE powerful apprentice, his reason for choosing Anakin. Palpatine turned Dooku to the Dark just like he did with Anakin, though Dooku did have a more justified reason. As well, just because Dooku was the CIS leader doesn't make him the best general. He was used to fighting the Republic which would become the Empire, so who's to say he would be used to the Alliance style of fighting?

Revolver Ocelot

He originally chose Anakin for his potential; if Anakin became fully trained, his power would be immense.

Vader was good at what he did; be a "right hand man". Dooku is a natural leader, and thus wouldn't really have good cohesion in an Empire where there was one supreme ruler. And Palpatine did not want this ruler to be Dooku, so in a way you are right.

However, you are wrong in another sense. Dooku and Palpatine wouldn't mesh as well as Palpatine and Vader (or Dooku and Vader). They wouldn't make a better Empire. Vader was elite "muscle". Dooku wouldn't be found cleaning up Rebels and traitors by hand, but order others to do it. He's a thinking man, a political idealist, whereas Vader was a brutal warrior who'd Force Choke you if you piss him off.

Dooku was still awesome, but not "muscle" in a sense.

Rampant ox

I agree and disagree with both your comments. Dooku wuld have been able to take out the Alliance because he had already led a war against the republic. This means he knows about military tactics. Vader has no clue about military tactics. Dooku would also thrive if he was head of the Empire because he knows of their way of fighting. He did lead his own army against them and knows what tactics the Empire uses. I agree about the fact that Palps would remove Dooku if he thought the was getting to powerful. But I hate Palpatine. All he does is sit in his massive chairs and act old and pathetic to get people to like him. Dooku actually does something. Overall I think if Dooku had wanted to he could have played Sids and taken the galaxy for himself. He doesnt rule by fear like Sidious does and thus could have decreased the threat of the Alliance. It would also make for a far better OT if it was Dooku planning to overthrow Sids.

Blaxican_Hydra

If Dooku does not rule by fear than how will he rule. No one wants to to be ruled by a Sith really, well some. The Jedi would make moves to take out Dooku just as qickly as they did to take out Palps, faster actually since Dooku declared his loyalties as opposed to being subtle. Also I highly doubt Dooku was a batter tactition than Thrawn, seeing as Dooku took very heavy losses half of the war, he had more troops but could not take out the repub, as opposed to Thrawn who had barely any forces, yet managed to take Courascant out of commision and take over a few planets as well.

I highly doubt Dooku could plan to get rid of Sids w/o Sids knowing of it. Sideous would forsee or sense Dooku's intentions and immediately have him killed. The only reason he didn't forsee vaders betrayel was because it was a split second descision. Vader was still loyal to Sids up to the moment were he cracked from seeing his only son suffering at the hands of his master. No, I don't think Dooku would be able to control the Empire as well as Sids did, nor overthrow him.

Sidenote: Dooku's having fought the republic will not help him at all when fighting the Rebels. It's alot easier to fight a constant enemy that is always in the same place, as opposed to fighting a small group of people who are always moving around to differant locations. A good example of this is America's war in Iraq. America has more troops and better technoligy, but is getting it's ass kicked because they have no idea were the enemy is, were they will atatck from next, or what they will attack.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I agree and disagree with both your comments. Dooku wuld have been able to take out the Alliance because he had already led a war against the republic. This means he knows about military tactics. Vader has no clue about military tactics. Dooku would also thrive if he was head of the Empire because he knows of their way of fighting. He did lead his own army against them and knows what tactics the Empire uses. I agree about the fact that Palps would remove Dooku if he thought the was getting to powerful. But I hate Palpatine. All he does is sit in his massive chairs and act old and pathetic to get people to like him. Dooku actually does something. Overall I think if Dooku had wanted to he could have played Sids and taken the galaxy for himself. He doesnt rule by fear like Sidious does and thus could have decreased the threat of the Alliance. It would also make for a far better OT if it was Dooku planning to overthrow Sids. Palpatine did far more than you give him credit for. He may have sat around alot, but did nothing? Who do you think ran the Empire? Vader followed orders, but he definetely did not RUN it.

And no doubt Dooku would have been a fine leader, it was what he was gunning for. And I'd really like to see proof of his abilites in which he could "play Sids." Palpatine was a smart, cunning and powerful man. He's not about to let his subordinates undermine him or so openly threaten his seat of power.

And due to the Count's more "passive" nature, when compared Palpatine at least, it's true the Alliance would not have been as motivated. But he was still a figure in which the Rebels could rally around, he could still provide a reason for Rebellion.

And if somehow he DID conquer the Republic, dispose of Palpatine, and take Anakin under HIS wing....

Well, according to the Butterfly Effect, there is a substantial possibility that Anakin may not have been "Mustafared" by Obi-Wan, and it is a canon fact that Anakin, if he hadn't been put into the suit, would have been twice as powerful as Palpatine at HIS most powerful. He would have easily, and quickly disposed of Dooku himself, and yes it's true: Anakin was no great general, so the Empire in which Anakin ruled would crumble and collapse very quickly.

Rampant ox

OK then. Dooku could leave Palpatine and continue to build up the CIS. Once he has enough systems to his cause he would then overthrow the Republic and declare himself supreme ruler like Sids did but with an army of droids instead of an army of clones. Sids couldnt do anything about this at risk of the jedi finding out who he really was. If Dooku was lucky he could steal the plans for the Death Star as well. Now he is the head of an army that he created himself, so he will be as good at controlling them as Sids was at controlling the Empire. Plus he would have an apprentive, probably Sev'rance Tann, and kill Luke. He wouldnt pussy foot around like Vader and Sidious did, so he wouldnt get beaten by Luke. There is also the possibility that Anakin would get seduced to the darkside by Dooku rather than by Palps.

Blaxican_Hydra

And so tell me again how Sid's could not just kill Dooku subtly?

Rampant ox

Explain what you mean by 'subtly'. Dooku was an extremely smart man in his own right and would have realised Palpatines power having been a former apprentice. He would take all the precautions available to keep himself safe.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
OK then. Dooku could leave Palpatine and continue to build up the CIS. Once he has enough systems to his cause he would then overthrow the Republic and declare himself supreme ruler like Sids did but with an army of droids instead of an army of clones. Sids couldnt do anything about this at risk of the jedi finding out who he really was. If Dooku was lucky he could steal the plans for the Death Star as well. Now he is the head of an army that he created himself, so he will be as good at controlling them as Sids was at controlling the Empire. Plus he would have an apprentive, probably Sev'rance Tann, and kill Luke. He wouldnt pussy foot around like Vader and Sidious did, so he wouldnt get beaten by Luke. There is also the possibility that Anakin would get seduced to the darkside by Dooku rather than by Palps. Hmm, there are too many "what ifs" here. There is no evidence to back up such claims.

"Dooku could leave Palpatine and continue to build up the CIS. Once he has enough systems to his cause he would then overthrow the Republic and declare himself supreme ruler like Sids did but with an army of droids instead of an army of clones."

^This is what he was trying to do in the first place, didn't work too well.

Palaptine was going about doing as he pleased and the Jedi STILL didn't discover his true identity until HE chose to reveal himself. Again, all Palpatine's doing.

HOW could Dooku steal the Death Star plans when they're with Palpatine?

Dooku did not know how to play to Anakin like Palpatine could. Anakin was seduced to the Dark Side by a trusted friend and mentor, not the enemy of his beloved Republic and traitor to the Jedi. Dooku would not be able to turn Anakin.

Everyone here could beat Luke, so that's irrelevant.

Blaxican_Hydra

Exactamundo.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Hmm, there are too many "what ifs" here. There is no evidence to back up such claims.

"Dooku could leave Palpatine and continue to build up the CIS. Once he has enough systems to his cause he would then overthrow the Republic and declare himself supreme ruler like Sids did but with an army of droids instead of an army of clones."

^This is what he was trying to do in the first place, didn't work too well.

Palaptine was going about doing as he pleased and the Jedi STILL didn't discover his true identity until HE chose to reveal himself. Again, all Palpatine's doing.

HOW could Dooku steal the Death Star plans when they're with Palpatine?

Dooku did not know how to play to Anakin like Palpatine could. Anakin was seduced to the Dark Side by a trusted friend and mentor, not the enemy of his beloved Republic and traitor to the Jedi. Dooku would not be able to turn Anakin.

Everyone here could beat Luke, so that's irrelevant.

I do realise there are alot of what ifs there but its still possible. You started by saying that Dooku was trying to declare himself ruler over Palpatine with his army of droids. Dookus droid army was only there so that Palpatine could get emergency powers and his own army of the republic. Dooku wasnt trying to beat the republic, the droids were merely there as a tool for Palpatines emergency powers. What im saying is if Dooku actually took complete control of the droids and used them to overthrow Palps then there is a good chance the droids would win.

You then say that Dooku couldnt steal the plans for the Death Star. Well he was given them in AOTC. He could easily have made copies then or not given them to Palpatine at all. Your point about Anakin I agree with though. As diplomatic as Dooku is I change what I said earlier and say that Dooku wouldnt be able to persuade Anakin to join him. But I dont think it would make any difference. Anakin is powerful, but not powerful enough to take on Dooku and his whole droid army by himself.

Blaxican_Hydra

i really doubt sids left his one and only copy with dooku. remember sids never really trusted Dooku to be fool proof. he probbaly had a few copies of his own.

Rampant ox

Im not worried about Sidious having a copy of his own. Without an army behind him to help build it it is useless to him. What I was trying to say was that Dooku could have managed to get a copy of his own and make his own Death Star if he overthrew Sidious.

Blaxican_Hydra

How would he over throw Sideous before Sids suspected treason and and sent someone or a bunch of someones to go kill Dooku? Like a detachment of clone troopers? Also I have a feeling that the droid army didn't REALY belong t Dooku. They belonged to the Neimodeans, who only lisetned to Sids really. Dooku was just a puppet.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Blaxican_Hydra
How would he over throw Sideous before Sids suspected treason and and sent someone or a bunch of someones to go kill Dooku? Like a detachment of clone troopers? Also I have a feeling that the droid army didn't REALY belong t Dooku. They belonged to the Neimodeans, who only lisetned to Sids really. Dooku was just a puppet.

Two things that I have to say about your comments above. I think that the great Count Dooku can beat a bunch of clone troopers. He could probably beat hundreds of clone troopers at once for that matter. And secondly, I disagree with your statement about the Neimodeans. I think that they trusted Dooku completely and would do whatever he tells them to do. In ROTS Nute Gunray himself says to Greivous: Without Count Dooku, I have doubts about your ability to keep us safe.

But the overall point I am trying to get across is that Dooku had far more control over the war than people know. He could easily swayed it in anyones direction had he wanted too but thought that Sidious was a loyal master and so he had to be a loyal apprentice. Had he wanted to take the galaxy for himself I dont think it would be to difficult. He was an extremely skilled sith lord who could outclass anyone in saber combat and had enough political influence that he gathered thousands of star systems to his cause.

DiamondBullets

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Once he has enough systems to his cause he would then overthrow the Republic and declare himself supreme ruler like Sids did but with an army of droids instead of an army of clones.

^ Wishful thinking.

"Clones can think creatively. You will find that they are vastly superior to droids." -Lama Su

If Dooku betrayed Palpie, his Droid Army would last about as long as a snowman in Las Vegas.

Blaxican_Hydra

hm..is the snowman alive?

Rampant ox

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
^ Wishful thinking.

"Clones can think creatively. You will find that they are vastly superior to droids." -Lama Su

If Dooku betrayed Palpie, his Droid Army would last about as long as a snowman in Las Vegas.

Clones are a smarter army but Dookus droids would win by shear numbers. Clones have to be grown. I know that their growth cycle is sped up but droids are far quicker and easier to produce. Plus I read somewhere that one on one a super battle droid is superior to a clone trooper but the clone troopers can use tactics that outsmart the droids. Or Dooku could just attack the Kamino cloning centre.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Clones are a smarter army but Dookus droids would win by shear numbers. Clones have to be grown. I know that their growth cycle is sped up but droids are far quicker and easier to produce. Plus I read somewhere that one on one a super battle droid is superior to a clone trooper but the clone troopers can use tactics that outsmart the droids. Or Dooku could just attack the Kamino cloning centre. See that's the problem:

(I copied and pasted earlier by the way) With the exception of actually trying to overthrow Palpatine, Dooku WAS trying to build up a massive Droid Army, he WAS trying to kill all the clones he WAS trying to overthrow the Republic.

This is utterly ridiculous, but it's canon and must be accepted: It took only 1.2 million clones to defeat a droid army that was at least a thousand times that number. Even if Dooku turned on Palpatine, he'd still have to deal with the clones, seeing as Palpatine commanded their total loyalty. Not just that, but Dooku would have to be the one to kill Palpatine...himself. Which is a VERY tall order. He'd have to somehow, miraculously, hide his intentions from Palpatine, find him without alerting any attention, and then actually going about killing him. This is no simple feat. This is bordering on impossible here.

And again, there is NO substantial evidence to prove that Dooku could kill Palpatine in a fight, saber or Force powers.

Rampant ox

But if Dooku left Palpatine and revealed to the jedi Palps true identity as dark lord of the sith then Dooku would have a massive advantage. The jedi would take out Palpatine for Dooku. This woldnt be done quickly however. It will be the same situation as they had trying to capture Greivous. Palpatine would keep eluding them. While the jedis full attention is on destroying Palps and the republic is in dissaray with their leader having gone into hiding, this would be the perfect chance for Dooku to win. He would keep pummeling the Republic but without the jedi resisting him now. Eventually Dooku would come out the victor.

But I understand there is alot of what ifs and possibilities here. The point I am getting at is Dooku had alot of power but he chose to use it on helping Sidious. If he had decided to help the jedi I think the Jedi would have won. He kept helping Sidious which is why Sidious won. If he had gone out to get the galaxy for himself then I think he would won.

Blaxican_Hydra

Your absolutly right. The Jedi would take out Sids. than they would take out Dooku as well.

Tangible God

Hmm, the threat of revealing Palpatine would be an advantage. However, remember again, that the clones answered DIRECTLY to Palpatine, unbridled loyalty by a massive army would definetely be a key weapon. He may even order all clones to stick with the Jedi, pulling Order 66 while the Jedi were still fighting Dooku and now trying to find Palpatine.

Not to mention that it'll be hell for the Jedi during such a time. Now the Republic is without a leader and the Jedi must retain control of the Senate, difficult work there seeing as how most Senators shared Palpatine's secret view of the Jedi being corrupt and power-hungry. It wouldn't be a smooth transition.

Speaking of which, who's to say that the Jedi and the Senate would believe the traitorous Dooku's claim of Palpatine's true identity? The Senate especially.

Blaxican_Hydra

exactly. it could be a trap. And i'm sure Dooku in all his...I would say genius..but no, Ill think of a wprd, anyhoo Dooku can create some false videous of Sideous, a few false records. The jedi would suspect a trap and not go for the bait.

DiamondBullets

Dude, take Dooku's dick outta your mouth--he's not God. The robots would get WTFpwnd by the Clones.

Darth Vious

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I think that a Sidious vs Dooku fight would be a spectacular fight to watch. It pains me to admit that Sids probably was better seeing he was the master and all but I dont think that he would win by much in a duel.
Palpatine was only the Master because of the nature of the Sith. Dooku might not have known as much about the Dark Side as Palpatine, but his prowess with a lightsaber is undeniable as he'd spent his entire life training as and against other Jedi. If it came down to a duel, I think Dooku would have had the skill to defeat Palpatine. Actually, seeing how obvious Palpatine's saber technique was, it wouldn't surprise me if Luke could have beaten him in a straight duel (and I really do not like Luke at all).
As for the comment about Darth Maul being a pussy... He was still too good for Qui-Gon wink

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Hmm, the threat of revealing Palpatine would be an advantage. However, remember again, that the clones answered DIRECTLY to Palpatine, unbridled loyalty by a massive army would definetely be a key weapon. He may even order all clones to stick with the Jedi, pulling Order 66 while the Jedi were still fighting Dooku and now trying to find Palpatine.

Not to mention that it'll be hell for the Jedi during such a time. Now the Republic is without a leader and the Jedi must retain control of the Senate, difficult work there seeing as how most Senators shared Palpatine's secret view of the Jedi being corrupt and power-hungry. It wouldn't be a smooth transition.

Speaking of which, who's to say that the Jedi and the Senate would believe the traitorous Dooku's claim of Palpatine's true identity? The Senate especially.

I think that the jedi council would be smart enough to beleive Dooku if he told them Palps true identity. Remenber they were having serious doubts about his intentions throughout the movies even going as far as spying on him. I also think that Dookus droid army would be unimportant for the jedi or the clones if Dooku told the council about Sids. Palpatine would the need to use all his resources to take out the jedi before they can regroup and launch a massive attack on him. The jedi would stop worrying about the droids seeing there is a bigger problem to be stopped. All Dooku has to do is sit up and build up the numbers of his droid army while the jedi and clones beat the shit out of each other. All he then has to do is overthrow the winner who will be crippled after the fight with either the clones or the jedi. Plus with the Republic in dissaray because the jedi are trying to take over and keep the peace more and more systems are likely to join the CIS. Everything that happens will be benefiting the great Count Dooku.

Blaxican_Hydra

The JEdi wouldn't trust Dooku at all, not after hsi trying to kill three Jedi, and the murder of Sifo-Dias.

Rampant ox

They are already paying extra close attention to Palpatine remember. I also think that the jedi council are smart enough to know when Dooku is telling the truth. He was a top member of the jedi order and he would have earned enough respect then to be taken seriously. The jedi already distrust Palpatine and I think that Dookus words, sith or not, would be enough for them to take out Palpatine.

sithsaber408

Originally posted by Rampant ox
They are already paying extra close attention to Palpatine remember. I also think that the jedi council are smart enough to know when Dooku is telling the truth. He was a top member of the jedi order and he would have earned enough respect then to be taken seriously. The jedi already distrust Palpatine and I think that Dookus words, sith or not, would be enough for them to take out Palpatine.

"Do you believe what Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."

Had Dooku revealed the identity of Sids as Palpatine, not just as the influencer in general, the Jedi wouldn't have cared less.

It was Palpatine's unrelenting pursuit of the war and greater expansion of his powers after the death of Dooku and even Greivous that led them to suspect him of foul play.

Even still, they thought he was doing Sidious's work, not actually Sidious himself until Anakin broke that news.

Speaking of Grievous, the droid general was the commander of the droid army, a brilliant tactitian recruited to win battles for them.

Dooku was the political leader of the CIS, who used his stature and influence to convince planets to leave the Republic, and trade and commerce organizations to provide funding and battle droids for his political agendas. (real or not.)

He wasn't much of a military commander, at least as shown in the movies. (he botched the arena executions, and it was Greivous who launched the attack on Coruscant.)

That said, Dooku was a very powerfull Sith Lord, though not your run of the mill type of evil dark-side user.

I believe that he would pwn palpatine in sabers, but...... in force powers its a toss up. (edge: palps.)

He is not stronger than Yoda, as he had to create a distraction to escape.

"Faught well you have, my old Padawan." ---- I was always under the assumption that the fight was over right there, and that Yoda had him.

Nor could Dooku beat Anakin, as evidenced by EpIII, even at his full out best.

Anakin is the Single Most Powerfull Force User (Jedi/Sith),..... period.

(Pre-suited, and allowed to gain full potential of course.)

GL set it up to be that way.

I agree that Dooku is great, but Anakin WTFpwn's his old ass.
big grin

Rampant ox

Originally posted by sithsaber408
"Do you believe what Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."

Had Dooku revealed the identity of Sids as Palpatine, not just as the influencer in general, the Jedi wouldn't have cared less.

It was Palpatine's unrelenting pursuit of the war and greater expansion of his powers after the death of Dooku and even Greivous that led them to suspect him of foul play.

Even still, they thought he was doing Sidious's work, not actually Sidious himself until Anakin broke that news.

Speaking of Grievous, the droid general was the commander of the droid army, a brilliant tactitian recruited to win battles for them.

Dooku was the political leader of the CIS, who used his stature and influence to convince planets to leave the Republic, and trade and commerce organizations to provide funding and battle droids for his political agendas. (real or not.)

He wasn't much of a military commander, at least as shown in the movies. (he botched the arena executions, and it was Greivous who launched the attack on Coruscant.)

That said, Dooku was a very powerfull Sith Lord, though not your run of the mill type of evil dark-side user.

I believe that he would pwn palpatine in sabers, but...... in force powers its a toss up. (edge: palps.)

He is not stronger than Yoda, as he had to create a distraction to escape.

"Faught well you have, my old Padawan." ---- I was always under the assumption that the fight was over right there, and that Yoda had him.

Nor could Dooku beat Anakin, as evidenced by EpIII, even at his full out best.

Anakin is the Single Most Powerfull Force User (Jedi/Sith),..... period.

(Pre-suited, and allowed to gain full potential of course.)

GL set it up to be that way.

I agree that Dooku is great, but Anakin WTFpwn's his old ass.
big grin

The arena executions were only used to start the clone wars. Whether they were meant to die or not is irrelevant, the fact is his job was to start the clone wars and thats what he did. Dooku wasnt up to the level of GG military tactics but I think he had his own tricks that wuold have come into play if need be.

Everyone thinks that Dooku would have lost the battle with Yoda but I think otherwise. I posted this in another thread:
Ok then. Dooku could beat Yoda because his lightsaber style is better in two ways. Firstly, it is made for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and secondly, it uses minimum energy. While in the short term Yodas style is extremely effective he will tire himself out pretty quickly. This is shown in AOTC after his duel with Dooku. He is panting like a dog and they were only fighting for about thirty seconds. If Dooku manages to hold Yoda off long enough to get him tired then Yoda is finished. Plus Dooku has a pretty vast knowledge of both sides of the force. While Yoda is extremely good and maybe even the best in the knowledge of the force, his force abilities (apart from push) arent used for combat. Dooku could Force lightning Yoda any time during the duel and finish him off (remember Dooku only duels with one hand so his other can be used for force attacks). So overall it would be an extremely close and spectacular match but the Count would pick up the victory.

Finally the battle with Anakin had alot of factors in it. Yes Dooku got pwned but that is not to say that Anakin is the better duelist. If Dooku had wanted the match would have been over in a matter of seconds.

Blaxican_Hydra

You do not understand. You are thinking that Dooku and Sids were partners . Hence Dooku knowing all the plans and such. Dooku was not a partner he was a pawn. I doubt Palps told Dooku that he was planning on making Anakin his apprentice, but rather told him to kill him. Dooku did not know that Palps actually wanted Dooku to die, to make way for Anakin. No, Dooku was going his fullest. If not in the beggining then definantly after Anakin kicked him off the rail.

Rampant ox

I disagree. Dooku was never going his fullest. He thought all he had to do was bring out the darkside in Anakin and thats what he did. He wasnt worried about losing because he thought Sids had his back. I do agree with your statement that Dooku had no knowledge of only being a 'placeholder' for Anakin. I will admit that Dooku got tricked good and proper by Sidious which caused his defeat. He didnt lose because he got out classed in duelling/fore abilities.

Tangible God

I'm out of it for two days and suddenly everyone starts getting delusions of grandeur.

'Kay I have not read every single post in between this one and my last one, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone.

To reiterate: Honestly, if you were the CIA, and you were fighting the enemies of America and freedom worldwide, and you know that the leader of these enemies is a former CIA agent, would you be inclined to believe him if he were to tell you that the leader of the country you're fighting for is actually the architect of the whole damn thing? (This is an analogy, so please, no Bush-bashing)

I hope you said no, 'cause you'd be a damn fool to trust on a whim.

Dooku would not be able to convince his former comrades that Palpatine was the architect, not easily anyway. And even if they did believe him, do you honestly think that every one of at least 7000 Jedi from across the galaxy will have the oppurtunity to converge on and corner Palpatine all in one go? Nope.

Know why? Because these Jedi are still needed to fight the CIS. These Jedi need the clones to do that. Palpatine damn well knows this. And Palpatine commands the utter loyalty of said clones. Like I said, from his place of hiding he could instruct the clones to continue deceiving the Jedi until finally when the moment's right...Wham!, Order 66. STILL behind the Jedi's back.

Dookun will not have the oppurtunity to build up a droid army seeing as how his armies and his fleets and his planets are STILL being attacked by the Jedi's forces. There's no relaxing time for him no matter what way you look at this.

sithsaber408

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The arena executions were only used to start the clone wars. Whether they were meant to die or not is irrelevant, the fact is his job was to start the clone wars and thats what he did. Dooku wasnt up to the level of GG military tactics but I think he had his own tricks that wuold have come into play if need be.

Everyone thinks that Dooku would have lost the battle with Yoda but I think otherwise. I posted this in another thread:
Ok then. Dooku could beat Yoda because his lightsaber style is better in two ways. Firstly, it is made for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and secondly, it uses minimum energy. While in the short term Yodas style is extremely effective he will tire himself out pretty quickly. This is shown in AOTC after his duel with Dooku. He is panting like a dog and they were only fighting for about thirty seconds. If Dooku manages to hold Yoda off long enough to get him tired then Yoda is finished. Plus Dooku has a pretty vast knowledge of both sides of the force. While Yoda is extremely good and maybe even the best in the knowledge of the force, his force abilities (apart from push) arent used for combat. Dooku could Force lightning Yoda any time during the duel and finish him off (remember Dooku only duels with one hand so his other can be used for force attacks). So overall it would be an extremely close and spectacular match but the Count would pick up the victory.

Finally the battle with Anakin had alot of factors in it. Yes Dooku got pwned but that is not to say that Anakin is the better duelist. If Dooku had wanted the match would have been over in a matter of seconds.

No, Dooku was only halfway successful at Geonosis.

All those Jedi were to die, and Jango was not. (note the look of surpirse on his face when Mace Pwns jango.)

Amidala was to die. She didn't.

Dooku was supposed to kill all of them, and then lauch an attack on the Republic, most likely. (palps already had the emergency powers and the clone army before anybody arrived there for a rescue, and save for Anakin, I doubt that he really wanted any of them getting away.

Secondly, Dooku's style may be better for long term fighting and is desinged for saber v.s. saber combat (although that makes no sense on its own, as all saber styles are desinged for saber on saber fighting, just with a different focus.).......

But Yoda beat him. Yoda's flurry attacks outmatched him, and dooku was done. It didn't matter that Yoda got tired after, because he had him beat. Dooku knew it. That's why he left. He had just tried to kill Obi-wan, before being interrupted by Anakin, and had then de-limbed Anakin. There was no intent of set-up and escape.

He tried to crush Yoda with the ceiling, throw large objects at him, and use Force lightning (all things which Yoda was un-effected by, even though Dooku's supposed to be "stronger" by knowing both light and dark)..... meaning he tried to kill him. He wanted to win. He resorted to lightsabers becuase he was too weak in the Force for Yoda, and he created a distraction and ran like a coward from a one on one fight that you say he was supposedly "about to win", becuase Yoda PWNED him there too.

As for Anakin, well we will agree to disagree I guess.

GL says that Anakin is the Single Most Powerfull Force User (pre-suited and at full potential).

The novelization of the movie says that Kenobi and Skywalker tricked Dooku by starting off with one style and then switching, and it also says that Dooku was scared, as Anakin got stronger and stronger during the fight (due to the Count taunting him, I'll give you that), and that Dooku could barely hold him back at the end.

Then you have the movie, where Dooku is Owned, Pwned, and WTFpwned, in about 3 min. by Anakin.

I agree with all of them, and you agree with yourself.

Long Live Dooku, and the Confederacy! big grin

(Just teasing mate, I think Dooku was a great character, just not as great as you seem to....) wink

Blaxican_Hydra

Originally posted by sithsaber408
No, Dooku was only halfway successful at Geonosis.

All those Jedi were to die, and Jango was not. (note the look of surpirse on his face when Mace Pwns jango.)

Amidala was to die. She didn't.

Dooku was supposed to kill all of them, and then lauch an attack on the Republic, most likely. (palps already had the emergency powers and the clone army before anybody arrived there for a rescue, and save for Anakin, I doubt that he really wanted any of them getting away.

Secondly, Dooku's style may be better for long term fighting and is desinged for saber v.s. saber combat (although that makes no sense on its own, as all saber styles are desinged for saber on saber fighting, just with a different focus.).......

But Yoda beat him. Yoda's flurry attacks outmatched him, and dooku was done. It didn't matter that Yoda got tired after, because he had him beat. Dooku knew it. That's why he left. He had just tried to kill Obi-wan, before being interrupted by Anakin, and had then de-limbed Anakin. There was no intent of set-up and escape.

He tried to crush Yoda with the ceiling, throw large objects at him, and use Force lightning (all things which Yoda was un-effected by, even though Dooku's supposed to be "stronger" by knowing both light and dark)..... meaning he tried to kill him. He wanted to win. He resorted to lightsabers becuase he was too weak in the Force for Yoda, and he created a distraction and ran like a coward from a one on one fight that you say he was supposedly "about to win", becuase Yoda PWNED him there too.

As for Anakin, well we will agree to disagree I guess.

GL says that Anakin is the Single Most Powerfull Force User (pre-suited and at full potential).

The novelization of the movie says that Kenobi and Skywalker tricked Dooku by starting off with one style and then switching, and it also says that Dooku was scared, as Anakin got stronger and stronger during the fight (due to the Count taunting him, I'll give you that), and that Dooku could barely hold him back at the end.

Then you have the movie, where Dooku is Owned, Pwned, and WTFpwned, in about 3 min. by Anakin.

I agree with all of them, and you agree with yourself.

Long Live Dooku, and the Confederacy! big grin

(Just teasing mate, I think Dooku was a great character, just not as great as you seem to....) wink

clapping

Rampant ox

(Just teasing mate, I think Dooku was a great character, just not as great as you seem to....) wink

At the battle of Geonosis Dookus priority was to launch the Clone Wars ands thats what he did. Jangos death was unfortunate and you can tell this by the way Dooku flinches, but his death was not Dookus fault. It was more of a loss on an emotional level because Fett and Dooku were good friends, than a tactical level. It made no difference to the outcome of the war if Fett had died or not, he was just a pawn.
Dooku couldnt care less if Padme died or not, he merely was killing her because thats what Nute Gunray wanted. He was only going to kill her to keep Gunrays support which he managed to keep anyway.
Yes he probably set out to kill all the jedi at Geonosis but once again it made no difference. It only kept the jedi alive slightly longer. Before long Dooku knew they would be killed by the clones anyway so it mattered little.
The battle of Yoda is a complicated one in my opinion. It was a battle between master and apprentice. During there force battle there is no reason to beleive Yoda would have one. They would have kept throwing things at each other and it would have ended in a stalemate. Just because the Count suggested the duel doesnt mean he was losing the force battle. And because Dooku suggested the duel, it would mean he thought he could beat Yoda in a duel. At the end of the fight when Dooku dropped that thing on Obi-Wan and Anakin and Yoda had to stop it, Dooku could have cut down Yoda but he didnt. This means that he probably had to much respect for Yoda to kill him. IT could mean that Dooku knew he was coming to a victory so made a quick escape so that he didnt have to kill his old master.
The ROTS duel is a difficult one. I guess GLs word is law but the fight didnt show Dooku losing. Not until his arms got cut off did it look like Dooku was getting pwned. At no point other than the en did it show Dooku gettin pwned. I also think that it was luck Anakin cut Dookus arms off and if he hadnt Dooku would have one.

Tangible God

Woah there, you said a very un-SW like word: Luck.

Or for a better word, chance. Dooku definetely did not plan on losing that duel by having his hands lopped off. Whether the plan was for him to be beaten or not, it doesn't matter. Dooku, in that second, was beaten and disarmed. (literally) And it wasn't pre-ordained for him to lose his hands either, he wouldn't have gone for that.

And I doubt very much that if Dooku was willing rebel against the Republic, build a droid army, sit back and watch 200 Jedi die before his eyes, personally execute Obi-Wan, and conspire with the Sith, that he would be unwilling to kill Yoda.

Rampant ox

But Yoda was his old master. He would be the hardest jedi for him to kill except for maybe Qui-Gon.

Tarvos

Dooku lost to Anakin most likely because he wanted to test his strength, and in that instant Anakin got a power boost from his rage, fueling him to defeat Dooku when he wasn't going all out.

Rampant ox

I agree with you Tarvos if the point you are trying to make is that Dooku would have pwned Anakin whenever he wanted except for those final seconds where he got his arms chopped off.

Tangible God

He likely could have ended that duel quickly. But he just had to toy around with Obi-Wan instead of slicing him in half when he had the chance. That and his goading fueld Anakin's rage, allowing him to beat Dooku.

Letting Obi-Wan live was one of Dooku's less... intelligent mometns.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
He likely could have ended that duel quickly. But he just had to toy around with Obi-Wan instead of slicing him in half when he had the chance. That and his goading fueld Anakin's rage, allowing him to beat Dooku.

Letting Obi-Wan live was one of Dooku's less... intelligent mometns.

Dooku had everything planned. It wasnt one of his less intelligent moments because Count Dooku is almighty. He is in perfect form 100% of the time. It was that bastard Sidious's falt that he died.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku had everything planned. It wasnt one of his less intelligent moments because Count Dooku is almighty. He is in perfect form 100% of the time. It was that bastard Sidious's falt that he died. This is fanboyism and doesn't deserve to be properly responded to. I'll leave this at my last post.

willman

Originally posted by Council#13
Yay he's restricted. I reported him twice!

being a snitch is nothing to be proud of.

Tangible God

Except when it ends in Noobs and dumbasses being banned... then it's a great thing to be proud of.

redcaped

|-o-| (-O-) |-o-| hold the formation

sithsaber408

Originally posted by General G
The Jedi ruled for a millenia, the Sith ruled for 23 years or something like that. Does anyone else find this upsetting or annoying? I really liked the Sith and with people like Vader and Sidious, they should have ruled longer, any thoughts?

Of course its fair.

They are the F*cking villains.

They suck donkey balls.

Maul is a great fighter, fueled with hate, and expertly trained.

But..... too overconfident and not strong enough to take downt the head honcho's like Yoda or Mace.

Result: PWNED.

Count Dooku was a fool of a Jedi who got duped by Sids into taking his frustrations with the Senate and the Council, and putting them behind a war effort that was all about Sids ruling the galaxy.

Despite Rampant Ox's wishes other wise, Dooku, while powerfull and charasmatic, is a chump who can't beat Yoda and is discarded like yesterdays trash to make room for anakin.

Result: a pawn who is PWNED.

Anakin himself is a hack. A whiny b*tch who wants it his way, and who is also TRICKED into doing Sidious's will and killing all of his comrades while losing his girl to his own inabilites to control his temper.

He gets sliced and diced, and is later taken out by his own son, who as a half-trained Padawan just has to tap into his raw dark power once to put Vader down.

Anakin/Vader result: PWNED.

As for Sid's....

He is the ultimate evil, cunning and powerfull, but also shortsighted.

He lost two good apprentices, and while the war was won (mostly by anakin and the clones) he had major setbacks in many battles along the way.

So much so that a rag-tag group of gurella warfare rebels with less than half of the funding of the Empire was able to destroy his death star, and then he was killed on the second death star by his own right hand man.

Again, short-sighted.

Result: PWNED.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge starwars fan, and I love all of these characters, and would have to say that Vader is my fave after Yoda.

But they all did exactly what the Sith were supposed to do in these movies:

DIE. Either through lack of insight or due to overconfidence/arrogance.

It's no wonder they lost their order and their government 23 years after they came into power.

The're flunkies!

Tangible God

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Of course its fair.

They are the F*cking villains.

They suck donkey balls.

Maul is a great fighter, fueled with hate, and expertly trained.

But..... too overconfident and not strong enough to take downt the head honcho's like Yoda or Mace.

Result: PWNED.

Count Dooku was a fool of a Jedi who got duped by Sids into taking his frustrations with the Senate and the Council, and putting them behind a war effort that was all about Sids ruling the galaxy.

Despite Rampant Ox's wishes other wise, Dooku, while powerfull and charasmatic, is a chump who can't beat Yoda and is discarded like yesterdays trash to make room for anakin.

Result: a pawn who is PWNED.

Anakin himself is a hack. A whiny b*tch who wants it his way, and who is also TRICKED into doing Sidious's will and killing all of his comrades while losing his girl to his own inabilites to control his temper.

He gets sliced and diced, and is later taken out by his own son, who as a half-trained Padawan just has to tap into his raw dark power once to put Vader down.

Anakin/Vader result: PWNED.

As for Sid's....

He is the ultimate evil, cunning and powerfull, but also shortsighted.

He lost two good apprentices, and while the war was won (mostly by anakin and the clones) he had major setbacks in many battles along the way.

So much so that a rag-tag group of gurella warfare rebels with less than half of the funding of the Empire was able to destroy his death star, and then he was killed on the second death star by his own right hand man.

Again, short-sighted.

Result: PWNED.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a huge starwars fan, and I love all of these characters, and would have to say that Vader is my fave after Yoda.

But they all did exactly what the Sith were supposed to do in these movies:

DIE. Either through lack of insight or due to overconfidence/arrogance.

It's no wonder they lost their order and their government 23 years after they came into power.

The're flunkies! WORD!

Rampant ox

Originally posted by sithsaber408

Count Dooku was a fool of a Jedi who got duped by Sids into taking his frustrations with the Senate and the Council, and putting them behind a war effort that was all about Sids ruling the galaxy.

Despite Rampant Ox's wishes other wise, Dooku, while powerfull and charasmatic, is a chump who can't beat Yoda and is discarded like yesterdays trash to make room for anakin.

Result: a pawn who is PWNED.

The great Count is not a chump, a piece of rubbish or any of those other things you said about him. I find them deeply insulting. And he definetly did not get pwned by Anakin. He was going easy on him right up until Anakin chopped his arms off. Had he meant to kill Anakin (which he wasnt) it would have taken mere seconds, just like in AOTC. And Count Dooku and Yoda stalemated - there is no part in AOTC where Yoda was beating him. Accept it. Count Dookus only mistake was trusting Sids. Apart from that he is perfect.

Sesse

Count was Palpatines *****.

Took him, used him, tossed him.

Dooku was same for Anakin as that little remote droid was to Luke in Anh.

Rampant ox

jawdropjawdropjawdropHow can you say that about the almighty Count Dooku? And especially comparing him to Lukes crappy remote droid!! Have you no shame!?! Count Dooku was one of only twenty jedi to leave the order, became an accomplished sith lord, started the clone wars, pwned Kenobi twice and Anakin twice, convinced thousands of systems to leave the republic and stalemated with the great jedi master Yoda. I think he deserves a bit of respect!

Mysterious Man

Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Rampant ox

You just forced me to relive the worst part of SW and one of the most emotional times of my life with that pic!bawlingbawling

That photo hardly does him justice. It is the only moment I have ever seen him lose his perfect composure and elegance. You shouldnt judge him by it.

Blaxican Style

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Rampant ox

jawdropbawlingjawdropbawlingjawdropbawlingjawdropb
awlingjawdrop

Mysterious Man

http://www.endorsystem.com/ClieggLars2.jpg
"Your Dooku's dead,son.Accept it."

Rampant ox

Only Count Dooku is still alive!! The one that got his head chopped off was an unaltered clone that the great Count made for himself. He knew about Sids plan to dispatch of him so went into hiding. Then in ROTJ it was actually Dooku in the Vader suit throwing the emperor down the shaft!!

Mysterious Man

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Rampant ox

Stop freakin posting that picture!!!

Mysterious Man

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg evil face

Tangible God

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg Ha, this is fun.

Mysterious Man

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The great Count is not a chump, a piece of rubbish or any of those other things you said about him. I find them deeply insulting. And he definetly did not get pwned by Anakin. He was going easy on him right up until Anakin chopped his arms off. Had he meant to kill Anakin (which he wasnt) it would have taken mere seconds, just like in AOTC. And Count Dooku and Yoda stalemated - there is no part in AOTC where Yoda was beating him. Accept it. Count Dookus only mistake was trusting Sids. Apart from that he is perfect. How is he perfect?The only thing he was perfect for was being a pawn in Sids plan.And he wasn't 'going easy' on Anakin,read the novel.Accept it.Count was beaten by Yoda,knew it,and fled to save his sorry,wrinkley,old ass.And where did he pwn Anakin twice?Stop imagining things Rampant,it's not good for you. wink

Rampant ox

This is where he pwned Anakin twice:
1.Anakin runs at the great Count in Aotc absolutely underestimating Dookus skill. Dooku merely has to raise his hand anf give him a gentle dose of sith lightning. Anakin had his lightsaber out and Dooku did not yet Dooku still wtf pwned him.
2.It seems Anakin hasnt yet learned his lesson and again goes to attack Dooku in Aotc. Yet his two sabers are still no match for Dookus mastery of Makashi and promptly gets his arm chopped.

Dooku would have killed both Anakin and Kenobi there and then had Yoda not walked in to stop him. And then after his battles with the duo he is not in tip top shape to fight Yoda. He does a strategical retreat, he doesnt 'run away'. Count Dooku has far more class and pride than to simply 'run away' A bit like Yoda and Sidious. Only Yoda was running away with his tail between his legs like a pussy. And you say that Dooku isnt perfect. Maybe not but he is damn closer to being perfect than anyone else. He is rich, vastly knowledgable in both the light and dark side, a master of my fav style Makashi, can pwn almost any opponent he comes up against (would have difficulty with only Yoda and Mace), has elegance, class and is highly sophisticated. He is also very politically influential in the fact that he convinced thousands of star systems to leave the Republic and jopin the CIS.

Blaxican Style

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
Oh well,Rampant.Dooku's been:
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
This is where he pwned Anakin twice:
1.Anakin runs at the great Count in Aotc absolutely underestimating Dookus skill. Dooku merely has to raise his hand anf give him a gentle dose of sith lightning. Anakin had his lightsaber out and Dooku did not yet Dooku still wtf pwned him.
2.It seems Anakin hasnt yet learned his lesson and again goes to attack Dooku in Aotc. Yet his two sabers are still no match for Dookus mastery of Makashi and promptly gets his arm chopped.

Dooku would have killed both Anakin and Kenobi there and then had Yoda not walked in to stop him. And then after his battles with the duo he is not in tip top shape to fight Yoda. He does a strategical retreat, he doesnt 'run away'. Count Dooku has far more class and pride than to simply 'run away' A bit like Yoda and Sidious. Only Yoda was running away with his tail between his legs like a pussy. And you say that Dooku isnt perfect. Maybe not but he is damn closer to being perfect than anyone else. He is rich, vastly knowledgable in both the light and dark side, a master of my fav style Makashi, can pwn almost any opponent he comes up against (would have difficulty with only Yoda and Mace), has elegance, class and is highly sophisticated. He is also very politically influential in the fact that he convinced thousands of star systems to leave the Republic and jopin the CIS. And who's to say that noone else in the SW galaxy can do that?

Remember, despite Dooku's alleged "perfectness," he was still the apprentice, pawn, underling, and minion of another man. Dooku, with all his riches, knowledge, and intellect, fell victim to a Sith's lies. He is FAR from perfect.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
And who's to say that noone else in the SW galaxy can do that?

WTF?!?! If you can name somebody else that could accomplish everything Dooku has accoplished I will leave my argument there. If not you are simply making an assumption, and a very large assumption at that.

Dooku was fooled by one man only. This man happened to be one of the greatest sith lords of all time, manipulate his way to the top of the Republic, wipe out all the jedi and hold his own against Yoda. If Dooku was to fall victim to anyone it would be Sids. Its one mistake Dooku made and not suprising seeing Sids has so much manipulative power.

Mysterious Man

Oh really?Then how 'perfect' is Dooku if he's missing two hands and his head?Trust me,Dooku underestimated Skywalker and paid for it.He got pwned by Yoda and fled,cause he knew if he fought to the death he would be the one on the ground dead.I wouldn't put him as the best character of all time,that goes to Darth Vader.And Dooku's Makashi obviously didn't help him aboard the IH,as you can see.Face it,Dooku isn't the best thing since sliced bread,he's actually far from it.

Rampant ox

You can hardly compare Darth Vader to Count Dooku. Yes Dooku got three limbs chopped off. If I recall correctly Vader got 4 chopped off, one of them twice.
The Yoda fight pisses me off. You cant conclude a winner seeing neither of them ended up on the ground dead. Anything more than what happened in the movie is pure assumption.
Dooku unfairly lost against Anakin. At the beginning of the fight the Count was toying with the duo. He could have killed them both there and then but they werent his orders. He was their to make Anakin angry so he could be turned to the darkside. He accomplished this. However it got to the point where Anakin used raw strength to overpower Dooku. And can I point out that Dooku was under the assumption that Sids would step in to help him if the need arose. Anakin wasnt more skilled but had far more brute strength.
And there is not one person in the SW saga more perfect than the Count. I would be happy to hear your lame attemts at it but without suitable evidence Dooku has accomplished more than anyone else and has more credentials to his name than anyone else.

Mysterious Man

Please..spare me your extreme fanboyism.Count Dooku is not the best guy in SW.He was Palpatine's *****,took him,used him,tossed him.He was nothing more than a pawn.And even then he didn't see it.He was an old fool.And he was also
http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Rampant ox

You didnt answer my question. I claimed that the Count is the best guy in SW and your best argument is a picture that has been posted god knows how many times.
You call the great Count an old fool. Isnt Yoda an even bigger and older fool because he didnt realise who Sids was until it was far to late? What about Sids himself. Is he not an old fool because he got picked up by his one armed apprentice who was standing feet away and thrown into a shaft?And then there is Mace Windu. Shouldnt he be an old fool as well to not sense the overwhelming anger in Anakin who was standing a metre away, and then get pwned by them both at once?

The point I am making is that everyone in SW has made a fatal mistake at one time or another but you are singling out Dookus and blowing it completely out of proportion.

Mysterious Man

And you claiming he's the best thing since sliced bread isn't blowing it out of proportion?

Rampant ox

I never said he is the best thing than sliced bread. I said that he is better than any other person in SW. You havent said otherwise so I can only assume you agree.

Mysterious Man

No,I don't agree,and I NEVER said I did.And my favorite character is Mace Windu for prequels,and Darth Vader for OT.You don't see me spouting out saying that they can beat anybody,while Mace and Dooku are on par.

Rampant ox

Exactly. Its a matter of personal opinion who somebody thinks the best character is. Personally I dont like Mace and like Dooku more. I think that Dooku is far more accomplished than Mace. But again it is a personal opinion and no body else can say, no your not right.

Mysterious Man

Exactly.But you saying that Count Dooku will beat anyone is a personal opinion you are trying to pass off as a fact.

Blaxican Style

yes if it was JUST personal opion than you wouldnt' go into every Dooku vs. thread trollin around abotu how "perfect' Dooku is.

And i recommend that every person who posts here MUST end his post with the Dooku pwnd picture.

http://www.gabor-nagy.com/pwned.jpg

Rampant ox

Hahaha 'trollin'. Thats such a funny word. Anyway there is no rule saying I cant think that Dooku is the best. Nor is there one saying I cant post in almost all Dooku threads. My personal opinion is that Dooku is the best, it is neither right nor wrong because it is only my opinion. Just like there are Maul or Darth Vader fanboys. They think that those two are the best characters but they are not right or wrong because it is their opinion.

Razielim

Nothing's wrong with liking Dooku. I like Dooku. He's one of my favourites.

But really, spamming that picture is a bit lame and redundant. It's an eyesore to see so many posts end with it.

Rampant ox

^Exactly

Mysterious Man

Originally posted by Razielim
Nothing's wrong with liking Dooku. I like Dooku. He's one of my favourites.

But really, spamming that picture is a bit lame and redundant. It's an eyesore to see so many posts end with it. Too bad.And I meant it as a joke before,but I guess too many people here tak things way too seriously.And I never said liking Dooku was wrong,did I?No.I said saying Dooku will beat anyone whille passing it off as a fact is wrong.And it is,it's YOUR opinion,your opinion doesn't matter in debates,only fact does.THAT'S what I said.

Rampant ox

No opinions dont matter in debates. I dont use my opinions in debates unless it is obvious sarcasm either. There are plenty of facts to back up the Count as well. Everyone grossly underestimates his power and I am here to make sure he gets the respect he deserves.

Mysterious Man

And you grossly overestimate his power,for example:

He would not beat everyone Jedi in existence,that is your opinion you are providing,not fact.

Rampant ox

Yes, but that is obvious sarcasm. If you cant tell the difference there must be something wrong in your head.

Mysterious Man

There's nothing wrong with my head,second,how am I supposed to know you're kidding if you don't put the stick out tongue

after it?And it was not 'obvious' sarcasm,don't try to pass it off as that.

Rampant ox

So are you saying that there is a chance that Dooku could beat all the jedi. No, its ridiculous and obviously untrue. Thats how you can tell it is obvious sarcasm.

Mysterious Man

Where did I say that Dooku could beat all thse Jedi?I only said that how could I tell it was sarcasm?It's very decipher sarcasm from something you mean on the internet,incase you didn't know.And everyone knows you're crazy about Dooku,it was only natural to assume that you actually mean't it.

Rampant ox

OK. I agree with your last part. If it will make you happy, and seeing it is so difficult for you to understand my sarcasm I will end all my sarcastic comments with stick out tongue

Happy now?

Mysterious Man

Hey,don't blame me,I can't read your mind or know if your joking over the internet.

Rampant ox

No but I would have thought that outrageous comments like the one I made before were easily distinguashable as being sarcastic. Ive either been proven wrong or you lack the brain power to seperate sarcasm from truth.

Mysterious Man

Look,there's no reason to be a jerk.Everyone knows how you're obsessed with Dooku,and you're a fanboy,fanboy's tend to make statements like that all the time.Don't trust me,search around the SW Versus Forum.

Rampant ox

Ok. Apologies for my comment before. I do understand that fanboys tend to say outrageous things and pass them off as fact. I will be sure to use the smilie to help everyone know if I am speaking fact or fiction.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF?!?! If you can name somebody else that could accomplish everything Dooku has accoplished I will leave my argument there. If not you are simply making an assumption, and a very large assumption at that.

Dooku was fooled by one man only. This man happened to be one of the greatest sith lords of all time, manipulate his way to the top of the Republic, wipe out all the jedi and hold his own against Yoda. If Dooku was to fall victim to anyone it would be Sids. Its one mistake Dooku made and not suprising seeing Sids has so much manipulative power. I'm too lazy t read the page in between, so w/e.

Read my words properly. I said who's to say there's noone in the entire SW GALAXY that couldn't manipulate like Dooku did?

Frankly it wasn't even manipulating. He didn't lie to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guilds. He offered them power and riches in exchange for their allegiance, which they gave. He followed through on his promises to them, until he died. The only way he screwed over the CIS is by commissioning Jango to be the Clone template. And it's not like it takes a freakin' genius to pay a bounty hunter. Dooku was only the right man at the right time, it was only his charm and charisma that let him rise as he did. If someone else came through with equally admirable attributes, then Palpatine could just have easily used them. Dooku was nothing special, he was only convenient.

Rampant ox

^Hmmmmm. Dooku was powerful. Powerful enough to be the dark lord of the siths apprentice and right hand man. Seeing Sids chose Dooku and not anyone else would imply that Dooku was a better choice than anyone else. I highly doubt that Sids was limited in choices into who would be his apprentice. I also dont see how commisioning Jango to be the clone template was a bad thing either. He was the best bounty hunter in the business. And Dooku being nothing special is a load of s**t. He was the second most powerful duellist (tied with Mace and behind Yoda) and easily up there in terms of force ability. He also had a great deal political influence.

chinabing

Originally posted by Tangible God
He didn't lie to the Trade Federation or the Commerce Guilds. He offered them power and riches in exchange for their allegiance, which they gave. He followed through on his promises to them, until he died.

If I may join in, Dooku DID lie to the Separtists, right in AOTC!

"How could the Jedi come up with an army so quickly."

So right there, Dooku lied to them! He was they guy who got Fett to be the original host for the Republic's clone army. Dooku is playing the Separtists right into his hands.

Sesse

Or perhaps he was just plain dumb?

"Hohum... Sidious instructed me to order some army. But this is the Republics army?! That cant be it. Now, where did they get this one..."

chinabing

Originally posted by Sesse
Or perhaps he was just plain dumb?

"Hohum... Sidious instructed me to order some army. But this is the Republics army?! That cant be it. Now, where did they get this one..."

Ya right. Dooku is feigning surprise so the nemoidians & other separtists will be jump into the clone war.

The purpose of the clone wars was to help destroy the Jedi and keep the Sith in power through the regional governors. But first, the war had to begin, which is what Dooku happily told Sidious at the end of the movie.

"Everything is going as planned." -- one of my favorite lines from AOTC!

DarthMaul9123

how is this dumb thread seven pages long?

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
^Hmmmmm. Dooku was powerful. Powerful enough to be the dark lord of the siths apprentice and right hand man. Seeing Sids chose Dooku and not anyone else would imply that Dooku was a better choice than anyone else. I highly doubt that Sids was limited in choices into who would be his apprentice. I also dont see how commisioning Jango to be the clone template was a bad thing either. He was the best bounty hunter in the business. And Dooku being nothing special is a load of s**t. He was the second most powerful duellist (tied with Mace and behind Yoda) and easily up there in terms of force ability. He also had a great deal political influence. Palpatine couldn't just pick anyone he wanted, as most of the Order realized at this time the Sith were alive. Any Knight or Master would have been aware that they were being manipulated, and most were loyal to the Republic and the Council, so it would be harder to convince them to join the Dark Side. Only stray Padawans would have been a good choice. Dooku was a Jedi Maater who had resigned from the Order due to his anger at the Republic's corruption. There were 10 000 Jedi in the Order at the time, Palpatine could have preyed upon many of them, but he chose the one he could exploit the best. Dooku was rich, and influential, but that doesn't make him uber. Again, it makes him convenient. And when did I say commissioning Jango was bad? I said it was nothing special.

Tangible God

Originally posted by chinabing
Ya right. Dooku is feigning surprise so the nemoidians & other separtists will be jump into the clone war.

The purpose of the clone wars was to help destroy the Jedi and keep the Sith in power through the regional governors. But first, the war had to begin, which is what Dooku happily told Sidious at the end of the movie.

"Everything is going as planned." -- one of my favorite lines from AOTC! That's true, I knew I knew there was one.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God
Palpatine couldn't just pick anyone he wanted, as most of the Order realized at this time the Sith were alive. Any Knight or Master would have been aware that they were being manipulated, and most were loyal to the Republic and the Council, so it would be harder to convince them to join the Dark Side. Only stray Padawans would have been a good choice. Dooku was a Jedi Maater who had resigned from the Order due to his anger at the Republic's corruption. There were 10 000 Jedi in the Order at the time, Palpatine could have preyed upon many of them, but he chose the one he could exploit the best. Dooku was rich, and influential, but that doesn't make him uber. Again, it makes him convenient. And when did I say commissioning Jango was bad? I said it was nothing special.

Please define 'uber'. If uber means powerful look at it this way. Dooku had a great deal of political influence. The more of this political influence you have the more powerful you will become, just look at what Sids did.
Then on top of his political power he had vast amounts of force knowledge and saber skills. Then on top of that you have all of his wealth, and wealth can make someone very powerful. So if you add them all up I think Dooku can be classed as 'uber'.

Sidious chose Dooku to be his apprentice because he was the best choice. Sids wouldnt just be looking at the jedi. He would have eyes all over the galaxy trying to find a suitable replacement. Dooku being convenient is true to an extent, but it is more because he was the best choice.

Starwalker

As far as the thread topic is concerned, no the Sith shouldn't have ruled for longer than they did given that they enslaved multiple races, comitted genocide, destroyed planets, restricted freedoms, usurped democracy, disbanded the Senate, killed anyone who dissented, and were evil.

As far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan.

Tangible God

Originally posted by Starwalker
As far as the thread topic is concerned, no the Sith shouldn't have ruled for longer than they did given that they enslaved multiple races, comitted genocide, destroyed planets, restricted freedoms, usurped democracy, disbanded the Senate, killed anyone who dissented, and were evil.

As far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan. Damn straight. Dooku was a very good character, but in terms of power, as in Force-related powers, he's not that great. The Jedi, even the masters, were waning in the PT. They had been decreasing in power for centuries. And since Dooku was not even more powerful than the top of said Jedi, that doesn't say much about him. He was below Mace and Yoda, and given a little more time, Anakin as well.

Oh and Ox, by what you define as "uber" and "powerful" you could also say about Saddam, or Hitler or Stalin, or any other un-democratic ruler in history. They had the riches of their countries behind them, their armies to fight with, and many excelled in oratory skills. But few in history have been deemed "uber." Dooku was nothing special compared to many in the SW Saga. His greatest characteristic is his charisma and charm.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Starwalker

As far as Darth Tyrannus goes, he's good there's no doubt there but he's not better than Sidious, Mace, Yoda, a theoretical fully-realized Anakin, Luke as a Master, Leia if she fufilled her full potential given that she as well as Luke have Anakin's potential, Jacen circa Dark Nest, or Darth Revan.

pffffft. Dooku was on par with Mace and depending on the setting would have beaten Sids in saber combat. He also managed to hold his own against Yoda who you all deem as 'uber'. Had he not taunted Anakin he would have got wtf pwned, just like his master.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Tangible God

Oh and Ox, by what you define as "uber" and "powerful" you could also say about Saddam, or Hitler or Stalin, or any other un-democratic ruler in history. They had the riches of their countries behind them, their armies to fight with, and many excelled in oratory skills. But few in history have been deemed "uber."

Hmmmmm. I see your point. But Hitler was seen as one of the greatest military tacticians of all time. He had the backing of his country and his government and because of this power this gave him, he managed to kill millions of people, and was on the brink of victory. This can be vaguely compared to Dooku. He had much political influenceand the backing of the CIS and because of it managed to start the great Clone Wars. This was a war where many millions of people died. So the point I am making is that physical power (saber skills and force abilities) is one thing, but political power is far greater.

DarthMaul9123

Originally posted by DE Luke
Look,there's no reason to be a jerk.Everyone knows how you're obsessed with Dooku,and you're a fanboy,fanboy's tend to make statements like that all the time.Don't trust me,search around the SW Versus Forum.
especially me, sweet lord i used to be a maul fan...used to haha still am

Tangible God

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmmmmm. I see your point. But Hitler was seen as one of the greatest military tacticians of all time. He had the backing of his country and his government and because of this power this gave him, he managed to kill millions of people, and was on the brink of victory. This can be vaguely compared to Dooku. He had much political influenceand the backing of the CIS and because of it managed to start the great Clone Wars. This was a war where many millions of people died. So the point I am making is that physical power (saber skills and force abilities) is one thing, but political power is far greater. Very true. Oh and I don't wanna argue this, but... Hitler was far from a great military expert. He made very foolish and unwise decisions that cost him the war. But the point still stands.

The pen (or in this case, the spoken word) is mightier than the sword (or the saber.)

And I don't wanna double post, so... your response to Starwalker is more your opinion than SW canon.

Blaxican Style

Palpatine had convinced Dooku that Kenobi's death would make Anakin vulnerable to the dark side. Once turned, Dooku believed, Anakin would be the perfect commanding general of his new Sith Army, built from the remnants of the Jedi Order.

Count Dooku in his final moments.But Dooku never imagined the outcome of the duel. At the beginning he was winning somewhat easily, however, he did not realize that the fundamental and weak lightsaber forms Kenobi and Skywalker were using were a ruse; they had recently become masters of Soresu (Kenobi), and Djem So (Skywalker). Though able to block against the saber strikes of the two Jedi, he was forced onto the defensive. He Force pushed Kenobi out of the way but was pursued by Skywalker, who brutally hammered at the Sith. As Obi-Wan rejoined the fight Dooku realized that his opponents were more dangerous than he could have thought possible. Tyranus kicked Skywalker against a wall and locked Obi-Wan in a Force grip before hurling him across the room, leaving him unconscious. But then Skywalker barreled at him and Dooku found himself fighting for his life. Not only had Anakin mastered Djem So, an extremely powerful saber style, but his connection to the Force had greatly intensified since his last duel with the Dark Lord. In the end Anakin repaid the Count for his humiliating defeat on Geonosis by cutting off not one, but both, of Dooku's hands. Sidious had promised Dooku that he would intervene in the unlikely event that Anakin won the duel, but unfortunately for Dooku, he only realized Palpatine's betrayal in the moment before his death. In reality, Palpatine never intended Dooku to be the true apprentice; Dooku was merely a placeholder for Anakin and a tool for engineering the Clone Wars. At Palpatine's insistence, Anakin decapitated the helpless Sith Lord. Absolutely terrified, Dooku did not even ask for his master's help. Skywalker would later become Darth Vader, Palpatine's third and greatest apprentice.

-Wikipeda.

This pretty much proevs that Dooku wasn't "playing" with Anakin he whole time? It says that Dooku had to "quickly go on the defensive" when fighting the duo.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Blaxican Style

-Wikipeda.

This pretty much proevs that Dooku wasn't "playing" with Anakin he whole time? It says that Dooku had to "quickly go on the defensive" when fighting the duo.

Wikipedia isnt completely accurate. The movie is higher canon and in the movie we do see Dooku being pushed back. But this isnt because the duo are more skilled it is because it is far harder to push two opponents back than for two people to push their opponent back. We also see Dooku dispose of Kenobi with minimal effort. While he was fighting Anakin he doesnt seem that concerned. He is confident enough to provoke Anakin. Not until just before his arms get chopped off do we see any fear or doubt on the Count. And he did think that Sids would step in if need be so there was no need for him to go all out - or so he thought.

Blaxican Style

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wikipedia isnt completely accurate. The movie is higher canon and in the movie we do see Dooku being pushed back. But this isnt because the duo are more skilled it is because it is far harder to push two opponents back than for two people to push their opponent back. We also see Dooku dispose of Kenobi with minimal effort. While he was fighting Anakin he doesnt seem that concerned. He is confident enough to provoke Anakin. Not until just before his arms get chopped off do we see any fear or doubt on the Count. And he did think that Sids would step in if need be so there was no need for him to go all out - or so he thought.

I mostly concur with this, and I know that Wiki isn't vary accurate considering that it can be edited by anyway and as a result is subject to ones opinion more than facts. But we Don't really know for sure how much effort Dooku put into the fight. It seems as if Dooku seemed to be almost playing with them both. But that might just be the image created by Dooku's elegant and suave fighting style. Although of course if anyone has read the Rots novel feel free to put some input in.

chinabing

Ya can't prove anything with wikipedia!

Blaxican Style

Not entirely true. Alot of the stuff on their is actually based on real facts. The only reason you cant "trust anything on Wikipedia" is because its "non-cannon". WHich is bull. The whole cannon system is screwed up IMO.

sithsaber408

Originally posted by KMC Dark Lord
Although of course if anyone has read the Rots novel feel free to put some input in.

The novel gives the same acount.

The Wiki point of view is based OFF OF the NOVEL.

See:

It is not an exaggeration to say that this duel is the longest duel in the novelization, at least how long it is described. During the duel, Dooku also smashes chairs and particles to the Jedi, which is left out from the movie. In the movie, this duel is relatively short, especially after Obi-Wan Kenobi was knocked to the floor.

Before the duel itself, there is a short conversation between Palpatine and Dooku, revealing the plan Palpatine used to lure Dooku into a confrontation with his new candidate for apprenticeship. This was the first scene ever in novelizations to confirm Darth Sidious and Palpatine are one and the same.

After Dooku is disarmed and Palpatine urges Anakin to kill him, it becomes obvious for Dooku that he had been used as a pawn and a decoy, who never possessed the true powers of a Sith. His last thought was "Treachery is the way of the Sith".

KMC Dark Lord

That doesn't prove that its differant though.

sithsaber408

"At the beginning he was winning somewhat easily, however, he did not realize that the fundamental and weak lightsaber forms Kenobi and Skywalker were using were a ruse; they had recently become masters of Soresu (Kenobi), and Djem So (Skywalker). Though able to block against the saber strikes of the two Jedi, he was forced onto the defensive. He Force pushed Kenobi out of the way but was pursued by Skywalker, who brutally hammered at the Sith. As Obi-Wan rejoined the fight Dooku realized that his opponents were more dangerous than he could have thought possible. Tyranus kicked Skywalker against a wall and locked Obi-Wan in a Force grip before hurling him across the room, leaving him unconscious. But then Skywalker barreled at him and Dooku found himself fighting for his life. Not only had Anakin mastered Djem So, an extremely powerful saber style, but his connection to the Force had greatly intensified since his last duel with the Dark Lord. In the end Anakin repaid the Count for his humiliating defeat on Geonosis by cutting off not one, but both, of Dooku's hands. "

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'---------THAT is almost verbatim what the book says.

I read it, I'm telling ya.

That is also what GL says.

Anakin IS more powerfull than Dooku, he defeated him in a one on one fight.

And none of that "Dooku wasn't fighting his hardest" bullshit.

Even if that were so, he would turn it on when he realized that Anakin's attacks were coming much stronger.......IF he was as great and powerfull as Ox assumes.

He wouldn't be caught off guard by some whelp who was pissed, were he stronger with the force and a better duelist.

However, were he just a pawn of Sid's to engineer the Clone Wars and make Anakin mad, then......

You have exactly what happend.

Anakin PWNS.