Batgirl (Cassandra) vs. Nightwing and Robin (Tim Drake)

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batdude123
The fight takes place in the batcave. They do not get any weapons. This is just a straight up fist-fight. Who wins?

Scarlet315
I think they all were a natural at something before the bat recruited them. Dick with his acrobatics, Tim with his detective skills, and Cassie with her fighting skills. Under the bats tutulage all their natural attributes were enhanced a great deal. Anyway what im saying is that if it were just h2h then cassie takes this and easily too. Musn't forget her ability to detect moves.

batdude123
bump...

King KAM
Drake and Nightwing double team this broad and pull out the victory on this overrated floozy

dman2008
Originally posted by King KAM
Drake and Nightwing double team this broad and pull out the victory on this overrated floozy

yeah right.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

anyway Robin doesn't factor into this match at all he gets koed in the pening seconds of this fight

Nightwiing will fair a litle better but he will still lose 10/10

King KAM
Originally posted by dman2008
yeah right.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

anyway Robin doesn't factor into this match at all he gets koed in the pening seconds of this fight

Nightwiing will fair a litle better but he will still lose 10/10 i dont know.....drake is much more capapble than ur giving him credit for

Validus
Originally posted by King KAM
i dont know.....drake is much more capapble than ur giving him credit for
Indeed he is but Cassie is more capable than you're giving her credit for.

batdude123
Originally posted by King KAM
i dont know.....drake is much more capapble than ur giving him credit for

Dude, whenever Cassie and Tim sparr, she always makes him look like a little b*tch. wink

dman2008
Batgirl is one of the top three martial artists in DC

Robin is barley in the top 20 or 15 and Nightwing barely cracks the top ten.

batdude123
Originally posted by dman2008
Batgirl is one of the top three martial artists in DC

Robin is barley in the top 20 or 15 and Nightwing barely cracks the top ten.

Nah, I can name more than two better martial artists than Batgirl:

Karate Kid
Batman 1 Million
Richard Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Lady Shiva

spetznaz
Originally posted by King KAM
i dont know.....drake is much more capapble than ur giving him credit for

Guess you didn't read BloodTies.

Drake is VERY good (and basically the best trained ROBIN by far for his age, particularly due to what happened to Jason .....the guy even got some pointers from Shiva), but against Batgirl he might as well slit his own throat with a batarang.
They are not even on the same planet in terms of skill.

Or for that matter take their fight against Shrike!
Robin was getting KILLED (he would have been literally murdered by Shrike ....everything he tried to do to protect himself backfired).
Then Batgirl stepped in and made Shrike look like a pathetic fool. Everything he tried she turned against him, and literally dismantled the guy to the point where he was bleeding to death (due to a torn femoral artery).

Drake and Cassie are simply at different levels. Drake is amazing (the guy beats up teams of trained spec-ops military types), but Cassie is simply on a different plateau.

As for her being an over-rated floozy ....for a moment I thought you were talking about Captain America (you know, the whole 'he can take down spiderman by throwing his shield' spiel).

spetznaz
Originally posted by batdude123
Nah, I can name more than two better martial artists than Batgirl:

Karate Kid
Batman 1 Million
Richard Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Lady Shiva

Two of those (Karate Kid and BM1M) are characters that can basically hang with super-powered heroes (in KK's case pre-crisis Kryptonians and Daxamites).

When it comes to 'earth humans' the only people who can hang with BG in 'normal' DC are Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Bronze Tiger is a 'great,' but he is a tier below.

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
Guess you didn't read BloodTies.

Drake is VERY good (and basically the best trained ROBIN by far for his age, particularly due to what happened to Jason .....the guy even got some pointers from Shiva), but against Batgirl he might as well slit his own throat with a batarang.
They are not even on the same planet in terms of skill.

As for her being an over-rated floozy ....for a moment I thought you were talking about Captain America (you know, the whole 'he can take down spiderman' spiel).

I know, I was the one he arguing to about Captain being able to beat Spider-man. laughing

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
Two of those (Karate Kid and BM1M) are characters that can basically hang with super-powered heroes (in KK's case pre-crisis Kryptonians and Daxamites).

When it comes to 'earth humans' the only people who can hang with BG in 'normal' DC are Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Bronze Tiger is a 'great,' but he is a tier below.

Still, that makes her number 5 in the top 10 list, not number 3. big grin

spetznaz
Originally posted by batdude123
Still, that makes her number 5 in the top 10 list, not number 3. big grin

Well, true .....almost!
Batgirl is indeed number 3 (if you include KK and BM1M). Here's how:

The fact of the matter is that Dragon, Shiva and Cassie are interchangeable.

After all, Shiva killed Dragon, but Dragon was about to kill Shiva before two of her guards tackled him from behind (this was in the Richard Dragon miniseries). Hence, even though Shiva killed Dragon, Dragon would have killed her was there no interference (and would have used the same 'Leopard Blow' that she uses, whereby fingers are driven through one's head). Thus even though Shiva won it is clearly apparent that Dragon did not lose.
Now take Batgirl and Shiva. They have faced each other several times .....one time Shiva killed her (and brought her back), the other time Batgirl defeated Shiva a second before she herself got knocked out. Then in the final edition of the Batgirl series Batgirl defeated Shiva and left her hanging for dead over a Lazarus pit (which somehow makes me believe we have not seen the last of Lady Shiva, since in the second to last frame it seems like the fabric holding her over the pit is fraying ......which is interesting because at first the hook had gone through her flesh, but now it is only a thin fabric layer left). Anyways, Batgirl 'killed' Shiva (although I think she is coming back).

Thus the 3 are interchangeable, meaning that Batgirl is NOT number 5 but rather number 3 (together with Dragon being number 3, and Shiva being number 3 as well).

Hence even with BM1M and KK, Batgirl still comes at number 3.

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
Well, true .....almost!
Batgirl is indeed number 3 (if you include KK and BM1M). Here's how:

The fact of the matter is that Dragon, Shiva and Cassie are interchangeable.

After all, Shiva killed Dragon, but Dragon was about to kill Shiva before two of her guards tackled him from behind (this was in the Richard Dragon miniseries). Hence, even though Shiva killed Dragon, Dragon would have killed her was there no interference (and would have used the same 'Leopard Blow' that she uses, whereby fingers are driven through one's head). Thus even though Shiva won it is clearly apparent that Dragon did not lose.
Now take Batgirl and Shiva. They have faced each other several times .....one time Shiva killed her (and brought her back), the other time Batgirl defeated Shiva a second before she herself got knocked out. Then in the final edition of the Batgirl series Batgirl defeated Shiva and left her hanging for dead over a Lazarus pit (which somehow makes me believe we have not seen the last of Lady Shiva, since in the second to last frame it seems like the fabric holding her over the pit is fraying ......which is interesting because at first the hook had gone through her flesh, but now it is only a thin fabric layer left). Anyways, Batgirl 'killed' Shiva (although I think she is coming back).

Thus the 3 are interchangeable, meaning that Batgirl is NOT number 5 but rather number 3 (together with Dragon being number 3, and Shiva being number 3 as well).

Hence even with BM1M and KK, Batgirl still comes at number 3.

Good points. But what about Conner Hawke?

Validus
Shiva is already back btw, spetz. She joined the Birds of Prey.

batdude123
What about guys in DC like O-Sensei, Constantine Drakon, and David Cain? I think the reason people don't recognize O-Sensei and Constantine Drakon as top tier martial artists is because they are not well-known.

Validus
Has Drakon done anything besides smash Ollie Queen?

batdude123
What about Connor Hawke as well? Hell, what about even Wonder Woman? I just think there are a bunch of uber martial artists in DC that get over-looked sometimes.

batdude123
^ Am I not right?

King KAM
^isnt right

batdude123
Originally posted by King KAM
^isnt right

It's funny hearing that from a guy who said that Captain America would beat Karate Kid in a h2h fight.

spetznaz
Originally posted by batdude123
What about Connor Hawke as well? Hell, what about even Wonder Woman? I just think there are a bunch of uber martial artists in DC that get over-looked sometimes.

WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies not to make 12 yr old boys make oogly eyes and drop their ice cream cones on the grass.

Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best. However ranking her as a martial artist would be hard for me.

Same thing with Superman and his Kryptonian martial arts (the Torquasm-Rao -whatever-he-calls-them that include a mental discipline and a physical discipline). If you add these to Superman's strength and speed (especially speed) you have someone who can whoop all the Batmans and Robins and Shivas and Batgirls in one fell swoop! But I wouldn't call him a 'martial artist' in DC, even though he knows what is arguably a martial art. Superman could defeat all the top human martial artists in DC and Marvel under a second with Torquasm-Rao, but I wouldn't call him a martial artist.

Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.

Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.

By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.

Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory.

King KAM
Originally posted by batdude123
It's funny hearing that from a guy who said that Captain America would beat Karate Kid in a h2h fight. you do realize that you are the butt of a cosmic joke and you dont get the punchline?

King KAM
Originally posted by spetznaz
WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies.

Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best.

Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.

Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.

By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.

Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory. dude/.....do people actually read all that?

Validus
Originally posted by batdude123
What about Connor Hawke as well? Hell, what about even Wonder Woman? I just think there are a bunch of uber martial artists in DC that get over-looked sometimes.
Wonder Woman lost to Black Canary in a powerless fight. I'd say she's around the Nightwing level in MA skill.

spetznaz
Originally posted by King KAM
dude/.....do people actually read all that?

Well, you must have.
And even if you did not I wasn't exactly writing it for you now, was I?

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
WonderWoman is arguably the best fighter on DC Earth, but the thing is that even though she has had crazy training (and more importantly uses that training) her main attribute does not stem from that. Her fighting skill augments her other powers, but she is more than that.
A crude analogy would be to look at the F-22 Raptor.
It is the most maneuvrable production fighter jet (in the West), and thus would be the best jet to use in military aerial acrobatics. Hence the USAF Thunderbirds should trade in their F-16s (which they use for their aerial acrobatics) for the Raptor (which, with its 2D thrust vectoring nozzles, should be better at such stunts than the Viper).
However the Raptor will never be used for such antics ....for one it is too expensive to 'waste' on airshow theatrics, and secondly while it may be very maneuvrable its main aim is to kill anything flying in the skies not to make 12 yr old boys make oogly eyes and drop their ice cream cones on the grass.

Similar with WW......she is a great fighter, and once you add her skill to her speed, her strength, and her resistance to injury, you end up with a really formidable fighter.
However I would be hard pressed to rank WW among 'martial artists' ....even though she is indeed one (a martial art means a fighting art, not necessarily one stemming from the Orient, and thus her Amazonian fighting skills are indeed martial arts)and one of the best.

Moving on to Drakon.
That guy was written as being able to defeat Connor Hawke, who is supposed to be one of the top martial artists in DC (so good that he is the Silver monkey, a position only below that of the Paper Monkey aka Lady Shiva).
Yet Drakon smeared the pavement with Hawke like he was some snotty nosed punk!
What to say?
nothing .....maybe that is one case where DC editors should have put in overtime. I really have nothing more to say about drakon ....and there is a reason he 'disappeared' and hasn't been heard from in DC.

Connor Hawke.
As said he is/was the Silver Monkey.
He is good (even though the Drakon anomaly exists).
He is not the best.
He is not better than Cassie.

By the way there are others .....for example Cassie's older (imperfect) brother Mad Dog. One of David Cain's failed experiments (before he hit pay dirt with Cassie). He is good, and was written as giving Batgirl a hard time.

Anyways, with that said ....under 'normal' conditions in DC Earth (without including people like WW, BM1M, and KK) and ignoring anomalies like Constantine Drakon and Mad Dog, the top tier is Batgirl, Shiva and Dragon.
Although currently I have to give Batgirl a half-point advantage ....after all her last showing against Shiva was a clear victory. Snapper her neck like kindling and left her hanging on a meat hook.
They'll be no arguments about that victory.

What about O-Sensei? You're ignoring a bunch of characters because they are "too powerful." So, big deal. They are better martial artists than Batgirl. This is who has the best martial artists skill. You can't just ignore somebody's hard-trained skill because they could mop the floor with DC's other martial artists without actually having to use their skills. The point about the F-22 Raptor and the F-16 Falcon, just because the F-22 Raptor is used for other purposses, doesn't change the fact that it is more acrobatic in the air. I agree that Batgirl Cass is perhaps the most skillfully endowed in martial arts in the human category, but you can't just omit the other ones. My point, just because the other ones are more powerful than Dragon, Shiva, and Cain, doesn't make them any less of a martial artist and they deserve their respect at the top of the list. wink

King KAM
Originally posted by spetznaz
Well, you must have.
And even if you did not I wasn't exactly writing it for you now, was I? someones crabby

spetznaz
Originally posted by batdude123
What about O-Sensei? You're ignoring a bunch of characters because they are "too powerful." So, big deal. They are better martial artists than Batgirl. This is who has the best martial artists skill. You can't just ignore somebody's hard-trained skill because they could mop the floor with DC's other martial artists without actually having to use their skills. The point about the F-22 Raptor and the F-16 Falcon, just because the F-22 Raptor is used for other purposses, doesn't change the fact that it is more acrobatic in the air. I agree that Batgirl Cass is perhaps the most skillfully endowed in martial arts in the human category, but you can't just omit the other ones. My point, just because the other ones are more powerful than Dragon, Shiva, and Cain, doesn't make them any less of a martial artist and they deserve their respect at the top of the list. wink

You do have a good point BD123.
And true ....it is not really prudent to 'ignore' characters.

The only reason I did so is because some (like WW, and Superman when he decides -LOL- to go Torqua-whatever-its-called) simply have their martial skills as secondary aspects of a far more powerful skill/ability set.
Take their fighting abilities away and there would be no difference (of any significance).

On the other hand take away the martial art abilities of Lady Shiva or Richard Dragon for example, and all you have is a lithe attractive female and some white dude.

The ones that give me most pause are people like Drakon.
I still say a DC editor wasn't paying much attention. The problem with that is that comics are written/drawn fiction, and thus if an editor goes to sleep you can have Huntress beating Batman in H2H or something similarly wacky. Or say Arsenal pimp slapping Superman (none of the above happened, but for it to happen all that would be necessary is someone to draw it as such and for the editing department that takes care of continuity to be asleep).

Drakon is great, but having him beat Connor like it was nothing, and yer Connor has faced off against Dragon and Shiva (and not lost respect), basically makes Drakon the very best in 'normal' DC.
Yet Shiva/Cassie/Dragon are also written as the top tier.
Again, there is a reason why Drakon simply disappeared from DC continuity. Too many lose ends.

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
You do have a good point BD123.
And true ....it is not really prudent to 'ignore' characters.

The only reason I did so is because some (like WW, and Superman when he decides -LOL- to go Torqua-whatever-its-called) simply have their martial skills as secondary aspects of a far more powerful skill/ability set.
Take their fighting abilities away and there would be no difference (of any significance).

On the other hand take away the martial art abilities of Lady Shiva or Richard Dragon for example, and all you have is a lithe attractive female and some white dude.

The ones that give me most pause are people like Drakon.
I still say a DC editor wasn't paying much attention. The problem with that is that comics are written/drawn fiction, and thus if an editor goes to sleep you can have Huntress beating Batman in H2H or something similarly wacky. Or say Arsenal pimp slapping Superman (none of the above happened, but for it to happen all that would be necessary is someone to draw it as such and for the editing department that takes care of continuity to be asleep).

Drakon is great, but having him beat Connor like it was nothing, and yer Connor has faced off against Dragon and Shiva (and not lost respect), basically makes Drakon the very best in 'normal' DC.
Yet Shiva/Cassie/Dragon are also written as the top tier.
Again, there is a reason why Drakon simply disappeared from DC continuity. Too many lose ends.

Thank you! big grin I agree that martial art skills are definitely more important to Shiva/Cass/Dragon, but that doesn't mean that the powerful ones don't have it (Karate Kid, Batman 1 Million, Wonder Woman, etc...) But what about O-Sensei? He was Richard Dragon and some other dudes sensei and he tought them everything they know.

dman2008
Originally posted by batdude123
Nah, I can name more than two better martial artists than Batgirl:

Karate Kid
Batman 1 Million
Richard Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Lady Shiva

Cass is 2-0 against shiva

and shes equal to Dragon

Bronze tiger wtf he's not even in her league

batdude123
Originally posted by dman2008
Cass is 2-0 against shiva

and shes equal to Dragon

Bronze tiger wtf he's not even in her league

Actually, Shiva did beat her in a fight in their first encounter. But I agree I f*cked up with Bronze Tiger on the list. big grin

King KAM
Originally posted by dman2008
Cass is 2-0 against shiva

and shes equal to Dragon

Bronze tiger wtf he's not even in her league and cap once solo'd shive and dragon at once, without the shield, after he had already beaten tiger

Validus
Originally posted by King KAM
and cap once solo'd shive and dragon at once, without the shield, after he had already beaten tiger
I remember. That was right before he got one shotted by Karate Kid.

batdude123
Originally posted by King KAM
and cap once solo'd shive and dragon at once, without the shield, after he had already beaten tiger

Yeah, and poop stinks. It's completely irrelevant to this thread.

King KAM
Originally posted by Validus
I remember. That was right before he got one shotted by Karate Kid. but parryed the shot by sheer force of will, and then judo flipped karate kid who landed on his neck and died.

batdude123
Originally posted by King KAM
but parryed the shot by sheer force of will, and then judo flipped karate kid who landed on his neck and died.

Then he got pimp slapped by Batman from DC all the way to Marvel. smile

King KAM
Originally posted by batdude123
Then he got pimp slapped by Batman from DC all the way to Marvel. smile ......no

srankmissingnin
Technically speaking in terms of pure MA skill Batgirl isn't anywhere near the top ten. It's her ability to read her opponents body languages that makes her so formidable with out it she better then average at best.

And Drakon was badass!

Juntai
On a side note... Did anyone pick up Birds of Prey OYL?
Shiva's on the team now.
wink

And Black Canary is learning from "Mother", who trained Shiva.

Juntai
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Technically speaking in terms of pure MA skill Batgirl isn't anywhere near the top ten. It's her ability to read her opponents body languages that makes her so formidable with out it she better then average at best.

And Drakon was badass! She has been since she trained without it. roll eyes (sarcastic) And reading your opponent is part of martial combat. Forgetting how to understand body language would ruin any Martial Artist.

srankmissingnin
Anyone can read an opponent to some excent but for Cass it is so percise that it borders telepathy. When she lost the ability read body language like an open book Batman wouldnt even allow her to partrol, saying it would take years before she was up to par... and he lets Robin patrol.

batman2505
come on they all just end up having a three some Happy Dance

spetznaz
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Anyone can read an opponent to some excent but for Cass it is so percise that it borders telepathy. When she lost the ability read body language like an open book Batman wouldnt even allow her to partrol, saying it would take years before she was up to par... and he lets Robin patrol.

You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.

You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?

Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.

Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."

Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.

Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?

Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."

The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.

Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)

And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:

Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."

Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.

Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average') it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.


Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."


And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!

If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright.

batdude123
Hey spetznaz, remember when we had the conversation about how DC has some uber martial artists that don't get mentioned because they are overshadowed by people like Shiva, Dragon, and Cain? What about O-Sensei? He's one of the best DC has to offer. He trained Dragon and this other guy all that they knew in terms of martial arts ability. What's your take on him? I say he's not mentioned in that list of the best simply because people don't know who he is.

dman2008
Originally posted by spetznaz
You have mentioned several times that Batgirl is not a topnotch fighter without her reading ability, and even in one post said that she was at best average.
And you base your assertions on what happened when Batgirl learnt how to talk, and in the process forgot how to read what a person was supposed to do with great efficacy.

You are right that she is not as good a fighter as she was without her reading ability, but you are WAAAY wrong in terms of you saying she was an 'average at best' fighter.
Fact of the matter is that Batgirl was still one of the best fighters ......yet she was not allowed to patrol (while Robin, as you correctly pointed out, was given free reign).
Why?

Well, let me dissect this. Have a look at the following conversation.

Batman says: You're still not ready. Your OFFENSE IS FINE, BUT YOUR DEFENSE ......! All your life, you've had that special ability to predict your opponent's moves. Now that's gone ....YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN DEFENSE LIKE THE REST OF US."

Thus there is the first problem with your statements.
You say that without her 'reading' ability she is an 'average' fighter at best.
The truth of the matter is that she is still an offensive beast in every way, she just lacks the same level of defense that was granted by her reading ability.

Now, the next question is obviously why Robin is allowed to patrol, while Batgirl during this stage stayed at home.
Why was that?

Simple, and Oracle addresses it when he is talking to Batgirl.
Batgirl had started to dress up in a different costume to go and tackle criminals, and she (Batgirl) managed to ALWAYS thoroughly defeat them.
As she says, 'who needs defense' when she can take them all out using her offense!
While she is with Oracle the following conversation occurs:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."

The above conversation (and another with Robin, which also has him telling her that her daredevil stunts, like walking between bullets, is just insane) basically shows why she is not allowed to patrol.
Her offensive skills are still perfect (while fighting with Shiva, before Shiva fixes her reading skills, Batgirl is seen to think that all she needs is ONE HIT), what is lacking is her reading ability.
This is a problem when she has a penchant for taking skills that Robin DOESN'T, and thus that is why one is allowed to patrol and the other is not.

Again:
- the fight with Shiva where she asks for just one hit
- the fight with the various thugs in Gotham where she needs that with her offense she doesn't need defence
- the talk with Oracle where Oracle explains to her why she (Batgirl) is not ready, even though she is far better than Oracle as Batgirl ever was in the past (basically because of the risks taken by Batgirl, which would be deadly without her reading skills)

And then there is this conversation between Shiva and Batgirl:

Shiva: " It's getting late, and I've wasted enough time on you already I'd heard you were good. Very good. Imagine my surprise when I found that not only IS YOUR DEFENSE PITIFUL ....but that you won't even fight like we both know you can. I saw the moves you didn't make. Lethal moves. You're obviously a TRAINED ASSASSIN. Why do you keep play-fighting?"
Batgirl: "I don't kill."

Batgirl: I need a favor
Shiva: A favor? After that little trick you pulled last time? You'll be lucky to leave this roof alive.
Batgirl: You ...see....moves. Before ....they ....happen. I ....used ....to. I ...want ...to ....again.
Shiva: Yes. Yes, I see it now. The gap in your style. I can give you back what you've lost. Rather quickly infact. But there's a price.

Again, it is not that Batgirl is a bad fighter (or as you say, 'at best average') it is that she is a great fighter with amazing offence, but the problem is that without her reading abilities AND her penchant for taking dangerous stunts, she is not ready for patrol.
Oracle when she was Batgirl never used to take the risks Cassie takes.
Robin NEVER dodges a fullisade of bullets from point-blank range.
Not even Batman and Nightwing take the type of insane risks that Batgirl does.


Conclusion:
Under no circumstances was Batgirl without her reading ability an 'average' fighter.
What she was lacking was her combative defensive suite, which (in her case) was a fatal flaw given the risk choices she takes.
To reiterate .....here is the Oracle conversation again:

Oracle: " If he says you're not ready, you're not ready."
Batgirl: "Were ....you ....ready?
Oracle: " That's not the point."
Batgirl: oh."
Oracle: " No, really. I could never fight like you, BUT I NEVER JUMPED IN FRONT OF BULLETS, EITHER. YOU SEEM TO LOOK FOR DANGER. I'm not sure why, but it worries me. I'LL BET IT WORRIES HIM TOO."


And about the Robin-Batgirl comparison .....let's just say that later on (several issues) while Robin and Batgirl are taking down a room full of criminals, Batgirl takes out some perp firing a gun at her by weaving in-between the bullets.
What does Robin say? He is shocked, then he simply states in awe: "Bullet dodging. Okay!

If Robin used to take the same risks Batgirl took he also wouldn't be allowed to patrol .....unless he got the same defensive skills like Cassie.
And Cassie is not an 'average' fighter. It would have taken her 10 years to be as good as Batman was defensive-wise (and probably much longer to be like she was before she had lost her reading ability), but her offensive skills were still alright.

yep Happy Dance

dman2008
anyways Batgirl destroys them both 10/10

spetznaz
Originally posted by batdude123
Hey spetznaz, remember when we had the conversation about how DC has some uber martial artists that don't get mentioned because they are overshadowed by people like Shiva, Dragon, and Cain? What about O-Sensei? He's one of the best DC has to offer. He trained Dragon and this other guy all that they knew in terms of martial arts ability. What's your take on him? I say he's not mentioned in that list of the best simply because people don't know who he is.

It is as you said ....not popular/known equals not being mentioned.

I guess normally DC maintains that the 'normal' (i.e non-Karate Kid/Batmanonemillion) top is the Trimurti comprised of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva , but obviously being fiction nothing is set in stone and it is easy for a different writer to throw things into chaos mode (for example the whole Constantine Drakon debacle, where he was written in such a manner as to cast doubt on the Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva trinity).

Anyways, Shiva claims to always keep a list of the 25 best martial artists, and Prometheus had the moves of 25 (or was it 30) of the best martial artists stored in his helmet's drive.
Thus there must be a bunch, and they must be good .....and it allows for different writers to just introduce some character from the blue and throw everything out of synch .....but generally speaking it is the trimurti of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva that has prominence, and of the three currently Batgirl is at the helm after her final and total defeat of Shiva.

superbatman86
Nightwing and Robin win this.Robin is a 4 second destraction at best but with someone like Nightwing 4 seconds is all you need.I still say Nightwing by himself could beat her on his own more then 50% of the time.He may not be as good as fighter as she is but he's stronger, faster, and more agile.Not to mention that he has spent the majority of his crime fighting career fighting against people with super powers and with teamates with super powers.

batdude123
Originally posted by spetznaz
It is as you said ....not popular/known equals not being mentioned.

I guess normally DC maintains that the 'normal' (i.e non-Karate Kid/Batmanonemillion) top is the Trimurti comprised of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva , but obviously being fiction nothing is set in stone and it is easy for a different writer to throw things into chaos mode (for example the whole Constantine Drakon debacle, where he was written in such a manner as to cast doubt on the Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva trinity).

Anyways, Shiva claims to always keep a list of the 25 best martial artists, and Prometheus had the moves of 25 (or was it 30) of the best martial artists stored in his helmet's drive.
Thus there must be a bunch, and they must be good .....and it allows for different writers to just introduce some character from the blue and throw everything out of synch .....but generally speaking it is the trimurti of Dragon-Batgirl-Shiva that has prominence, and of the three currently Batgirl is at the helm after her final and total defeat of Shiva.

You're probably right. yes

Juntai
Promethius' disk in that old JLA issue, when he ran into Batman, said it had the top ten, and he Batman just narrowed his eyes and got ready. Then he said "And one of them .. . is you." Then Bats got clobbered. Since then Promethius has become somewhat of a pud, but he's about to be put back in the limelight.

spetznaz
Originally posted by Juntai
Promethius' disk in that old JLA issue, when he ran into Batman, said it had the top ten, and he Batman just narrowed his eyes and got ready. Then he said "And one of them .. . is you." Then Bats got clobbered. Since then Promethius has become somewhat of a pud, but he's about to be put back in the limelight.

Grazie!

I knew his helmet's drive had several of the top martial artists on record, but I had forgotten how many of them there were.
Thanks for the clarification.

Juntai
He may have added more since, but I haven't really seen him utilize it. I still think that Batman could have stood a better change in that fight through physical prowess of having actually performed all the moves on that disc hundreds of times.... then again, it was pretty much all off panel, so we didn't really get to see how well he stood up. He was just laid out next time we seen him. Though it's a wonder in a situation like that, that they didn't just teleport him out, or turn on the defense protocols, which knows the bio-signature of the JLA teams. But hey- most of that is irrelivent to the point here. I'm rambling big grin

batdude123
bump...

Darth Martin
Batgirl

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