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i dont know who would win and yes im serious

Me neither actually....

Fox

I say Fox. They both are on the same speed level but Fox is better armed.

Grey Fox wins this one, the reason why is that Vamp can't fight anything that he can't touch. The thing about where he made Raiden stand still won't work in this fight because Fox is Cyborg and it won't work on him. Plus, Frank is hella lot cooler than Vamp. I give Vamp one thing though, is that it takes a considerable amount of damage to defeat him. He won't last though. Taking into account that Grey Fox annihilates most of his foes with only a slash from his kitana.

Why would it not work? It freezes his body, and he still has his body left, it is just covered by an exo-skelleton. And Vamp is still pretty invincible, and very strong. Snake was able to PUNCH Grey Fox so he felt it through his suit, Vamp was much, much above Snake in strenght.
He would be able to knock him unconcscious and carv him up.

Vamp can also predict Fox's movment, and know where he is going to shoot, cut or run.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why would it not work? It freezes his body, and he still has his body left, it is just covered by an exo-skelleton. And Vamp is still pretty invincible, and very strong. Snake was able to PUNCH Grey Fox so he felt it through his suit, Vamp was much, much above Snake in strenght.
He would be able to knock him unconcscious and carv him up.

Vamp can also predict Fox's movment, and know where he is going to shoot, cut or run.

Raiden punches effected Vamp either. Fox can avoid these freezing things if even Raiden could. It took weight of metal gear rex to kill Fox, and he stayed concious untill he died.

That has nothing to do with it, it freezes the body. And when did Raiden punch Vamp? And when did Raiden dodge those things?

Originally posted by kamikz
That has nothing to do with it, it freezes the body. And when did Raiden punch Vamp? And when did Raiden dodge those things?

Mmm... during the fight. At least i punched him and dodged these things.

Fox. Though Vamp is fast, Twin Snakes showed that Fox is a LOT faster. He can dodge gunfire from Rex. I don't think Vamp could do the same.

Agreed. I give it to Fox. Besides I see no way in hell Vamp's puny knives are going to harm Fox's exoskelleton.

Originally posted by samishe
Mmm... during the fight. At least i punched him and dodged these things.

Yeah I died during that fight too.... There is nothing to prove how they fought, all we saw was Vamp bowing to him, Raiden could have shot him right there, he was at the exact same spot when he fell into the water as he was just before......

And it freezes the body, I don't think he will be immune to it, and dodging it could be hard too... Vamp is at least Fox equal in speed, thing is though that Vamp outnumbered both Raiden and Snake in speed whilst Fox did not.... And it is not yet possible to know if he is killable.

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah I died during that fight too.... There is nothing to prove how they fought, all we saw was Vamp bowing to him, Raiden could have shot him right there, he was at the exact same spot when he fell into the water as he was just before......

And it freezes the body, I don't think he will be immune to it, and dodging it could be hard too... Vamp is at least Fox equal in speed, thing is though that Vamp outnumbered both Raiden and Snake in speed whilst Fox did not.... And it is not yet possible to know if he is killable.

Still it was possible for Raiden to dodge those things. Fox moves as fast or even faster than Vamp and MANY times faster than Raiden. Dodging these things wont be a problem. And as been mentioned before i doubt Vamp's knifes would get through Fox's armor.

And fight between Raiden and Vamp surely lasted some time because otherwise it wouldn't have been concidered a fight at all and Vamp dodges bullets so it would take Raiden some efforts to get him. Vamp remained at the same place simply because during the fight he jumped in the water for a couple of time, so Raiden could've shot him at one of these times.

most of you seem to be underestimating vamp and kamikz understands a bit more... vamp is probably just as good as fox

Originally posted by samishe
Still it was possible for Raiden to dodge those things. Fox moves as fast or even faster than Vamp and MANY times faster than Raiden. Dodging these things wont be a problem. And as been mentioned before i doubt Vamp's knifes would get through Fox's armor.

And fight between Raiden and Vamp surely lasted some time because otherwise it wouldn't have been concidered a fight at all and Vamp dodges bullets so it would take Raiden some efforts to get him. Vamp remained at the same place simply because during the fight he jumped in the water for a couple of time, so Raiden could've shot him at one of these times.

I guess, but he didn't toss to many in-game because it would be to hard, so it would be harder now where he would throw them almost everywhere....... I don't know actually, Vamp ridicilousley outclassed Raiden in speed and all the other soldiers as well, he even outclassed Snake which not even Fox did....
Snake punched through Fox armour and made him gasp for air, Vamp almost took Snake's hand in one strike and lifted him with one hand....

I guess it could be considered a fight, but we don't know how it was displayed at all. He was diving in that place a couple of times in gameplay, but at that moment he was standing on the water...I doubt he would stand on the water a couple of more times during the battle.... And as I said, he bowed to Raiden, from what we know he could have shot him when he lifted his head, apparently, Raiden had done this before (When Vamp didn't excpect him to shoot him in the basement with Fortune). And if it haden't been for the water, Raiden would have lost most likley..

vamp wins (speed and invunrebility)
use the search i made this already

This is a very close match. I would just about give it to Fox. It's true that we don't know how or whether Vamp can die, but the whole point of this thread is who would win in a fight, and Fox doesn't have to kill him to defeat him, so the fact that it seems Vamp is pretty much invincible doesn't help him at all in this scenario. I also believe that two other of Vamp's great feats would prove to be useless in this scenario. Firstly, Fox is too fast and agile for Vamp's stun/freeze to work on him IMO, and secondly, Fox uses a blade, so while Vamp's great perception (how he predicts his opponent's movements) worked well on Raiden, he use a gun and Vamp simply had to dodge his bullets, whereas Fox would be able to close down on Vamp (because IMO his speed and agility is superior) and take him out with his blade, which Vamp would not be able to dodge.

However Vamp isn't completely outmatched here. His superior sense of smell would pretty much grant Fox's stealth camoflage useless, and while it may seem like I believe Fox would slaughter him, I believe it would be close.

Where does it say that he only has to defeat? And even if it does, if someone keeps rising after being beaten down that is not what I call defeat....

IMO they are equal in speed, and I do belive that he would be able to trap him with that freeze thing. I mean, if he is equal with him in speed, he only has to toss it near him, and it's not like Fox knows what it is and is going to jump around the place all the time.....

I say it is much easier to predict how someone swings a sword then how someone shoots a gun...You barley move your hand while using a gun, in the sword you need to use your whole arm... Vamp says himself that he reads the muscles and the body's movement.

But I gotta go to sleep now, so I'll be back tomorrow I guess....

Vamp does not have invulnerability. Otherwise the bullet would've bounced off his forhead.

Since he wakes up everytime he dies I would put that as pretty much unkillable....

Originally posted by kamikz
I guess, but he didn't toss to many in-game because it would be to hard, so it would be harder now where he would throw them almost everywhere....... I don't know actually, Vamp ridicilousley outclassed Raiden in speed and all the other soldiers as well, he even outclassed Snake which not even Fox did....
Snake punched through Fox armour and made him gasp for air, Vamp almost took Snake's hand in one strike and lifted him with one hand....

I guess it could be considered a fight, but we don't know how it was displayed at all. He was diving in that place a couple of times in gameplay, but at that moment he was standing on the water...I doubt he would stand on the water a couple of more times during the battle.... And as I said, he bowed to Raiden, from what we know he could have shot him when he lifted his head, apparently, Raiden had done this before (When Vamp didn't excpect him to shoot him in the basement with Fortune). And if it haden't been for the water, Raiden would have lost most likley..

Fox does not outclass snake in speed?? He moves faster than human eye reacts. His speed is surely is near or even surpass Vamp's.
And punching through armor and cutting it are different things. I could punch someone through cop's armor and it would hurt. This armor stops bullets but my punch would be effective.
And when Snake fought Fox he was 1)little bit younger(what personally I concider to be advantage) and 2) Fox was his friend. So who knows if he fought Snake with all his full potential.

And i'm sure Hideo Kojima would never allow fight between Raiden and Vamp be like two seconds short.
"Vamp bows and gets shot. The end" That would be funny.

Originally posted by Stalker 360
vamp wins (speed and invunrebility)
use the search i made this already

...speed?
...invunrebility?

Originally posted by samishe
Fox does not outclass snake in speed?? He moves faster than human eye reacts. His speed is surely is near or even surpass Vamp's.
And punching through armor and cutting it are different things. I could punch someone through cop's armor and it would hurt. This armor stops bullets but my punch would be effective.
And when Snake fought Fox he was 1)little bit younger(what personally I concider to be advantage) and 2) Fox was his friend. So who knows if he fought Snake with all his full potential.

And i'm sure Hideo Kojima would never allow fight between Raiden and Vamp be like two seconds short.
"Vamp bows and gets shot. The end" That would be funny.

No, he does not... Snake managed every single time to beat Fox when he encountered him. Fox was not his friend, he got drugs which effected his mind and only made him thirst for blood, and even before there duel he said "we will fight to the death". If this means, I will not hurt you as much as I could then that's something new to me....
And if you have played MG 2, Fox and Snake fights eachother to the death, Snake wins. Fox simply wanted a rematch, and lost again.... Even when he used his sword (when he cut of Ocelot's hand) he did not manage to defeat Snake...

I never said he only could cut, my point was that he would punch, and it would be far more effective than Snake's punches....

And it was Fox who betrayed and chose to fight Snake, I'd say Snake was more resistant to fighting than Fox. He even wanted to crush him in MG...

Why not? The player has to play through it of course, but the fight itself doesen't canonically have to be long. I could say the same thing about Vamp in the basment, IF there was a fight there....

Originally posted by kamikz
No, he does not... Snake managed every single time to beat Fox when he encountered him. Fox was not his friend, he got drugs which effected his mind and only made him thirst for blood, and even before there duel he said "we will fight to the death". If this means, I will not hurt you as much as I could then that's something new to me....
And if you have played MG 2, Fox and Snake fights eachother to the death, Snake wins. Fox simply wanted a rematch, and lost again.... Even when he used his sword (when he cut of Ocelot's hand) he did not manage to defeat Snake...

I never said he only could cut, my point was that he would punch, and it would be far more effective than Snake's punches....

And it was Fox who betrayed and chose to fight Snake, I'd say Snake was more resistant to fighting than Fox. He even wanted to crush him in MG...

Why not? The player has to play through it of course, but the fight itself doesen't canonically have to be long. I could say the same thing about Vamp in the basment, IF there was a fight there....

By this logic Raiden outclasses Vamp in speed. Who nows may be he beat him h2h. His punches also effected Vamp in the game.
And in MGS Snake fought Fox only once as far as i remember.

So why should Vamp defeat Fox h2h? What does he have to do that?

As I said, we don't know how the fight went, he could have shot him when he bowed.... And even if this didn't happened, then you're point is crushed as well, then none will outmatch the other in speed... But since we don't know about the fight....

He fought him once in MG and defeated him, even though he had been running through a hellofa large place, fighting unimaginable foes and guards, and taken large damage. Still he kicked his ass. In MGS he defeated him twice, one was a video, second was a gameplay fight and a video....

Because Vamp took him down in H2H combat easily. He just knocked his gun away and grabbed his face and threw him up a wall, lifting him with one hand. His strike almost took Snake's hand, he had to rest afterwards.... Vamp is damn fast and damn strong, and it is still doubted he can die. As he said himself, "I've died once already, I cannot die twice"

Originally posted by kamikz
As I said, we don't know how the fight went, he could have shot him when he bowed.... And even if this didn't happened, then you're point is crushed as well, then none will outmatch the other in speed... But since we don't know about the fight....

He fought him once in MG and defeated him, even though he had been running through a hellofa large place, fighting unimaginable foes and guards, and taken large damage. Still he kicked his ass. In MGS he defeated him twice, one was a video, second was a gameplay fight and a video....

Because Vamp took him down in H2H combat easily. He just knocked his gun away and grabbed his face and threw him up a wall, lifting him with one hand. His strike almost took Snake's hand, he had to rest afterwards.... Vamp is damn fast and damn strong, and it is still doubted he can die. As he said himself, "I've died once already, I cannot die twice"

So how can you judge about their fight during the gameplay?
Snake didn't really fought Fox h2h. Most of the time of the gameplay Fox was freaking out, jumpind and destroying surroundings.

Uh what? I'm not, I'm juding the cut scenes from their fight. Snake was indeed fighting Fox unarmed, didn't you see the cut scene? He totally kicked his ass, Fox was lying on the ground breathing for his life, Snake could have killed him there if he wanted to...

Snake only defeated Fox due to luck or some type of advantage, not because he was the better combatant. I doubt Snake as of MGS2 could even contend with Fox as of MG2. I mean he was the only foxhound agent to ever receive the 'fox' code name and it is hinted throughout the series that Fox was the most powerful in the whole series. Cyborg Fox was even greater and if they had both fought eachother with fair conditions and with luck not being a factor, Fox would completely own Snake.

What? Fox in MGS 2 is far, FAR better than he was before... He was a rookie and still completed a mission Fox did not complete and then he defeated Fox in the other mission. No luck, no advantage, Snake was the better combatent, period. If someone got the advantage it was Fox, Snake had to fight through the whole place, he would have been tired and wounded when he faced him.....


And he defeated him as well in MGS. What do you not understand with the line, "We will fight to the death, no interferance".

By your logic, Raiden was a greater combatant then Vamp because he came out on top against him, and would therefor be able to own Snake as badly as Vamp did.

Damn it, have you read nothing of the above? And Snake defeated Fox 3 times, 3 TIMES. That is not luck by any means...

Originally posted by kamikz
Damn it, have you read nothing of the above? And Snake defeated Fox 3 times, 3 TIMES. That is not luck by any means...

Vamp didn't outclassed Snake in h2h he simply lifted him with his hand, he attacked when Snake didn't see him coming. So Snake didn't really fought him.
Fox lifted Rex foot, so you think lifting Snake with one hand is really a big deal?
And about these 3 times. So first time was in MG, from what i seen it seemed that in the MGS it was the first time when Snake met CyberNinja so may be it wasn't canon in MG? Second time it happened during the cutscene. I haven't ever seen it because there was nothing like that in MGS, only in twin snakes. As you said we can't judge about the fight that happened during the gameplay because anything could've happened then.

I'm judging their speed from the cutscenes and it seems for me that Fox is faster. There was no feat of Vamp that proves that he is even close to Fox in strength.

Actually, Snake was the one who surprised Vamp not vice cersa. Then Vamp was so fast that Snake lost him. Then he attacked, one strike and Snake almost lost his hand. That is far from what Fox ever did. And I'm comparing Vamp's strenght to Snake's, Vamp is so much stronger than Snake and Snake knocked Fox unconscious....
And strenght does not matter if it only lies in how much you can lift, it is how you punch etc. Snake could block Fox moves with ease and not get a scratch, when Vamp touched his arm he almost lost it. After he lifted him up in the air Snake could barley stand up when Vamp left to get the president...

? It is canon, it just wasen't Cyborg, it was Grey Fox before Cyborg. And now you will of course say that cyborg is so much better and I agree, but, that does not change his combat skills and unarmed skills. He still had the same and he has been dead/almost dead for a long time, they shoulden't have improved, only his speed and strenght.

Lol the Twin Snake's is as good material as MGS 1, they are the same only that Twin Snake's got better graphic, moves, cutscenes etc...

Yes it does, and from what I judge in cutscenes then Vamp is faster. We see Fox moving as fast once, and then he is invisible plus he has lost all control over himself. He cannot direct his attacks perfectly and he cannot withstand the pain he is getting, no control at all....

And as we saw in the first cut scene where Fox attacks Snake, he is swinging his sword as hell, you don't swing a sword if you don't want to kill that person. One wrong move and Snake would be dead, but he handeled himself fine, actually, more than fine, he made him run away...

Snake + Raiden were WTF pwned by Vamp at the same time.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, Snake was the one who surprised Vamp not vice cersa. Then Vamp was so fast that Snake lost him. Then he attacked, one strike and Snake almost lost his hand. That is far from what Fox ever did. And I'm comparing Vamp's strenght to Snake's, Vamp is so much stronger than Snake and Snake knocked Fox unconscious....
And strenght does not matter if it only lies in how much you can lift, it is how you punch etc. Snake could block Fox moves with ease and not get a scratch, when Vamp touched his arm he almost lost it. After he lifted him up in the air Snake could barley stand up when Vamp left to get the president...

? It is canon, it just wasen't Cyborg, it was Grey Fox before Cyborg. And now you will of course say that cyborg is so much better and I agree, but, that does not change his combat skills and unarmed skills. He still had the same and he has been dead/almost dead for a long time, they shoulden't have improved, only his speed and strenght.

Lol the Twin Snake's is as good material as MGS 1, they are the same only that Twin Snake's got better graphic, moves, cutscenes etc...

Yes it does, and from what I judge in cutscenes then Vamp is faster. We see Fox moving as fast once, and then he is invisible plus he has lost all control over himself. He cannot direct his attacks perfectly and he cannot withstand the pain he is getting, no control at all....

And as we saw in the first cut scene where Fox attacks Snake, he is swinging his sword as hell, you don't swing a sword if you don't want to kill that person. One wrong move and Snake would be dead, but he handeled himself fine, actually, more than fine, he made him run away...

Snake + Raiden were WTF pwned by Vamp at the same time.

If you name any cutscene that prove that Vamp is faster than Fox i'll appreciate it.

Now let's look at it this way. Vamp grabed Snake throat. You can't just not count lifting Rex leg a strength feat. Imagine what presure Fox had to make too hold that kinda weight, now imagine that he grabs Snake's throat with the same strength. It like putting a truck on you throat.

Snake and Raiden were pwned by Vamp, so what? They didn't knew what they were dealing with then. Vamp was pwned by Raiden later. It doesn't matter what happened during the fight. He got pwned anyway.

So in strength Fox beats Vamp anyway.

Didn't you hear? I said Vamp was much stronger than Snake, not Fox. (Although he could be) But Vamp's punches proved much more effective, probably because he almost has claw like fingers and an incredible strenght.
Vamp is shown on several places that he is really, really fast. First scene, Navy Seals are totally gone by his speed. Raiden comes in. Vamp jumps above his head and behind him and just stands there, Raiden is still on his way to look up in the roof.
Vamp reacts so fast he manages to dodge Snake's machine gun fire when he does not even see him. He punches Snake's gun away and Snake almost looses his hand. He grabs him on his FOREHEAD and lifts him over the ground. Raiden shoots but Vamp dodges with minimal effort. He gets a radio call and gets out of there.
Vamp is later shown to run on water and walls, he is so fast that he can actually do that...
Vamp gets into town before Arsenal gear gets there...

There is alot to prove his speed.

One thing is also that Vamp dodges machine gun fire with minimal effort, even several at once. When Fox was fired upon by Rex he actually had a hard time running around dodging everything, he even got hit a couple of times...

Yes Fox could probably crush someones throat, but he didn't manage too. Vamp could have done it as well, although he never actually gripped someones throat...

Did Snake know who Fox was when he first fought him? He still made him run for his money. And as I said, the fight with Raiden is unclear....

And where is you're proof that Fox is so much stronger? Just the feat that he HOLDS Rex foot for some seconds? If Vamp was there he MIGHT as well been able to do the same thing, we just haven't seen him do it. Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense. From what we've seen, Vamp was strong enough to crush Snake's arm with one single punch, but when Fox launched an "in air kick" (both legs) against Snake, Snake parried it but grinded away a couple of meters on his feet. Snake also parried many of Fox's strikes and punched him down...

And I doubt Fox could kill him even if he managed to strike him or hit him, he didn't die when his brain got smashed by two gun bullets and a sniper shot, and humans die when they loose their brains, it's called "braindead".

So to the fight itself, what would happen? Vamp has shown to have incredible moving speed while fighting, Fox hasen't. Vamp flies around the whole room, barley seenable, while Fox almost always fights on equal ground with the opponent. If Vamp launches a couple of freezing stuffs Fox will be unable to move. And when knifes (that tears through Marine armour) comes it might not wound Grey Fox very much, but he could disarm him this way. And how do you figure that bullet proof vests protects much much better against bullets than punches? A guy does not throw a punch as fast as a bullet comes in, and a bullet is having a greater damage. Shooting someone with a bulletproof vest will hurt as hell and sometimes a person cannot breath, what about an income of about 5-6 bullets after eachother? A bullet has alot heavier impact than a punch and someone punching a bullet proof vest ain't going to hurt that person very much.... Bulletproof vests are oftenly made of metal, steel or titanium, and reinforced by ceramic plates, still it only "hopefully" prevents the bullet from reaching the body, and only spreads the energy from the bullet around the vest to decrease the damage. Still it leaves great wounds...
Try wearing a jacket that is big, I have let my friends punch me as hard as they can and I still can't feel 1/10 of what I would normally feel, now put on a vest made of titanium.....
I'd say a knife that comes with such a speed you can't see it would pack a real punch, and if this "punches hurts more than bullets on a bullet proof vest or armour" is true then that knife would hurt a helluvalot more, especially when someone as strong as Vamp tossed it....

Solid Snake versus Cyborg Ninja is PIS. There's no other way to look at it since we have never been told if CN was holding back. I mean if Cyborg Ninja survived getting rammed by Metal Gear's cockpit without even graoning how can Snake's punches cause him pain? The same goes for Vamp getting owned by Raiden. Given Vamp's and Cyborg Ninja's feats they should have never lost to Raiden and Snake.

If memory doesn't fail me Gray Fox in the exoskelleton surpases Vamp's strength by a long shot. I'd like to see Vamp stop Metal Gear Rex's from stomping someone with his strength alone. Since he hasn't the only showing of strength from his part lies in holding a man by his throat? Wow that's impressive...not.

Speedwise Vamp's fast enough to run on water. I give him that. Could he be fast enough to dodge REX's heavy fire? Maybe he could maybe he could not. They are both fast enough to deflect bullets. Nice. It is unclear to me as to who may be faster.

As for the resistance Vamp's got plenty of it, but it still does not compare to Cyborg Ninja's. Vamp's survived getting shot in the forhead by Raiden's S.O.C.O.M, and Cyborg Ninja survived getting hit by REX's heavy artillergy. He also had his left arm sliced off by REX's laser. He endured getting rammed against a wall by REX's cockpit and then getting stomped twice. In my point of view getting rammed by REX's cockpit alone would make a mess out of Vamp's body.

You mentioned the freezing stuff earlier. What makes you so certain it will work on Cyborg Ninja? While I hate using gameplay elements I find myself forced this time. Raiden was able to dodge Vamp's freeze stunt by cartwheeling. Cyborg Ninja is far more acrobatic and faster than Raiden. I really don't see it working on Fox. True Vamp may be immortal. However what will he do when he finds himself losing his head from his body? Fox can dodge REX's heavy artillery, Vamp's knives will do nothing against him in the fight. Vamp will not be able to predict Cyborg Ninja's moves. If Raiden's suit prevented Vamp from telling his moves; what do you think will happen when he tries to read someone wearing an exo-skelleton?

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Solid Snake versus Cyborg Ninja is PIS. There's no other way to look at it since we have never been told if CN was holding back. I mean if Cyborg Ninja survived getting rammed by Metal Gear's cockpit without even graoning how can Snake's punches cause him pain? The same goes for Vamp getting owned by Raiden. Given Vamp's and Cyborg Ninja's feats they should have never lost to Raiden and Snake.

If memory doesn't fail me Gray Fox in the exoskelleton surpases Vamp's strength by a long shot. I'd like to see Vamp stop Metal Gear Rex's from stomping someone with his strength alone. Since he hasn't the only showing of strength from his part lies in holding a man by his throat? Wow that's impressive...not.

Speedwise Vamp's fast enough to run on water. I give him that. Could he be fast enough to dodge REX's heavy fire? Maybe he could maybe he could not. They are both fast enough to deflect bullets. Nice. It is unclear to me as to who may be faster.

As for the resistance Vamp's got plenty of it, but it still does not compare to Cyborg Ninja's. Vamp's survived getting shot in the forhead by Raiden's S.O.C.O.M, and Cyborg Ninja survived getting hit by REX's heavy artillergy. He also had his left arm sliced off by REX's laser. He endured getting rammed against a wall by REX's cockpit and then getting stomped twice. In my point of view getting rammed by REX's cockpit alone would make a mess out of Vamp's body.

You mentioned the freezing stuff earlier. What makes you so certain it will work on Cyborg Ninja? While I hate using gameplay elements I find myself forced this time. Raiden was able to dodge Vamp's freeze stunt by cartwheeling. Cyborg Ninja is far more acrobatic and faster than Raiden. I really don't see it working on Fox. True Vamp may be immortal. However what will he do when he finds himself losing his head from his body? Fox can dodge REX's heavy artillery, Vamp's knives will do nothing against him in the fight. Vamp will not be able to predict Cyborg Ninja's moves. If Raiden's suit prevented Vamp from telling his moves; what do you think will happen when he tries to read someone wearing an exo-skelleton?

His goal by coming to Shadow moses was to fight Snake again. He said he would not get any peace until he fought Snake to the death, and that he did. We saw Fox getting pwned badly. How can someone fake getting hit in a metal suit? By as far as we know, Snake would have broke his legs and hands if he punched like that, but apparently he could.
Fox also hit him with swords and tossed a giant part of the roof against Snake, if Snake had not dodged those he would have been dead for sure. Snake defeated him end of story....

And you make it seem like Fox speed > Everything Snake has. That is not true. You guys have never played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before have you? There Snake defeates a guy named "running man" or something like that. He is the fastest man alive, Snake defeates him without much struggeling. He did it thanks to his skill and his wit. Then he defeated a man who was incredibly strong, THEN he also defeats Big Boss when he has a machine gun and Snake is UNARMED, again thanks to his skill, speed and wit. Big Boss was the best soldier every and Snake was a rookie. He also completed a mission Fox didn't get near completing and he defeated Fox in a battle after getting through a helluva place. Now, for a long time Fox has near dead and revived by a serum and the exo skeleton. So nothing should really have improved on Fox except his speed and his strenght. Apparently, Snake has defeated people who relied on these feats AND Snake has gotten even better and more experienced than when he faced Fox before. I think it is pretty ****ing likley Snake defeated him fair and square....

Really, the only time I've seen Fox match Vamp in speed was when he freaked out thanks to the drugs he got in his suit. That made him go berserk and was not able to control himself. He is not good in this state, only faster and stronger...

It is more likley that Vamp if any, faked against Raiden. There were many times he could have killed him there, and so could many people have done. Raiden was supposed to have survived, it was the S3 systems plan, to make it look like a new Shadow Moses.

Me too, to bad we won't. But he showed incredible strenght by tossing knifes through helmets and killing instantly that way, and almost causing Snake too loose his arm by one punch, then almost rendering him unconscious by grabing his forehead.

Vamp would easily dodge Rex fire. He dodged fire from several machine guns at the same time, without even leaving his position. And these were fired from experienced Navy Seals and marksmen, and from a pretty close distance too. I doubt he would have to budge an inch when dodging Rex canons. As we saw from Fox, he had to run all over the place when he lost his sword....

What? When Fox lost his arm he was no longer being able to fight. He didn't even manage to dodge the slow knee of Metal Gear. He clearly reacted to it (screaming before it comes) but was too wounded. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him really...
I doubt Vamp would die easily. How do we know his bones are breakable, if he even has any. He is a vampire, his head got shot twice by a SOCOM and once by a PSG-1. That thing could shoot someone with such an impact that they would fly over 10 meters, and has mm Nato ammo which pierces through armour and is really deadly normally. If that would not crack his skull then what would?

Of course Fox should be able to dodge the freezing stuff, but exactly under what circomstances? Vamp could throw one when they are throwing hits at eachother or seeing where Fox is going to land, it also only has to be close to him...
And Vamp could read Raiden's moves, he did several times in the beginning. He can see how Fox moves by looking at his metal suit, he does not need to see his skin, harder to read muscles but an expert in reading it anyway....

Originally posted by kamikz
Didn't you hear? I said Vamp was much stronger than Snake, not Fox. (Although he could be) But Vamp's punches proved much more effective, probably because he almost has claw like fingers and an incredible strenght.
Vamp is shown on several places that he is really, really fast. First scene, Navy Seals are totally gone by his speed. Raiden comes in. Vamp jumps above his head and behind him and just stands there, Raiden is still on his way to look up in the roof.
Vamp reacts so fast he manages to dodge Snake's machine gun fire when he does not even see him. He punches Snake's gun away and Snake almost looses his hand. He grabs him on his FOREHEAD and lifts him over the ground. Raiden shoots but Vamp dodges with minimal effort. He gets a radio call and gets out of there.
Vamp is later shown to run on water and walls, he is so fast that he can actually do that...
Vamp gets into town before Arsenal gear gets there...

There is alot to prove his speed.

One thing is also that Vamp dodges machine gun fire with minimal effort, even several at once. When Fox was fired upon by Rex he actually had a hard time running around dodging everything, he even got hit a couple of times...

Yes Fox could probably crush someones throat, but he didn't manage too. Vamp could have done it as well, although he never actually gripped someones throat...

Did Snake know who Fox was when he first fought him? He still made him run for his money. And as I said, the fight with Raiden is unclear....

And where is you're proof that Fox is so much stronger? Just the feat that he HOLDS Rex foot for some seconds? If Vamp was there he MIGHT as well been able to do the same thing, we just haven't seen him do it. Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense. From what we've seen, Vamp was strong enough to crush Snake's arm with one single punch, but when Fox launched an "in air kick" (both legs) against Snake, Snake parried it but grinded away a couple of meters on his feet. Snake also parried many of Fox's strikes and punched him down...

And I doubt Fox could kill him even if he managed to strike him or hit him, he didn't die when his brain got smashed by two gun bullets and a sniper shot, and humans die when they loose their brains, it's called "braindead".

So to the fight itself, what would happen? Vamp has shown to have incredible moving speed while fighting, Fox hasen't. Vamp flies around the whole room, barley seenable, while Fox almost always fights on equal ground with the opponent. If Vamp launches a couple of freezing stuffs Fox will be unable to move. And when knifes (that tears through Marine armour) comes it might not wound Grey Fox very much, but he could disarm him this way. And how do you figure that bullet proof vests protects much much better against bullets than punches? A guy does not throw a punch as fast as a bullet comes in, and a bullet is having a greater damage. Shooting someone with a bulletproof vest will hurt as hell and sometimes a person cannot breath, what about an income of about 5-6 bullets after eachother? A bullet has alot heavier impact than a punch and someone punching a bullet proof vest ain't going to hurt that person very much.... Bulletproof vests are oftenly made of metal, steel or titanium, and reinforced by ceramic plates, still it only "hopefully" prevents the bullet from reaching the body, and only spreads the energy from the bullet around the vest to decrease the damage. Still it leaves great wounds...
Try wearing a jacket that is big, I have let my friends punch me as hard as they can and I still can't feel 1/10 of what I would normally feel, now put on a vest made of titanium.....
I'd say a knife that comes with such a speed you can't see it would pack a real punch, and if this "punches hurts more than bullets on a bullet proof vest or armour" is true then that knife would hurt a helluvalot more, especially when someone as strong as Vamp tossed it....

Non of Vamp feats prove that he is faster than Fox. Running on walls and water is not droven by his speed. Dodges machine fire with minimum efforts? Fox does that too but bullets are not that effective on him that's why he don't have to dodge everything.

Just like you said "Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense". You can't concider that Vamp is as strong as Fox only becauser he MIGHT have hold Rex foot. Otacon never was in situation where he had to support such weight, so we should assume that he POSSIBLY could do that? Come on! And crushing arm is not a big deal at all and is nowhere near as impressive as holding Rex's foot. And where the hell did you get that he "almost" crushed his hand. His hand wasn't that damaged after that happened. Vamp could've simply squeezed it hard, hell I can do that.

This is how their fight would be.
Vamp throws his freezing staff at Fox, Fox dodges this attack easilly. Man i don't understand how can't you realise that if Raiden could dodge them Fox could do that with easy.(I know Raiden possibly never had to dodge them but it was possible during the fight so it means that he could).
Besides while fighting on the ground Vamp showed that his fighting speed isn't that great also. When he tries to attack you with knife he runs at you and his strike isn't really that fast.

Again, Vamp would never be able to freeze Fox. In close combat Fox simply cuts his head off. And you still didn't proved that knifes would really damage Fox armor...

Originally posted by samishe
Non of Vamp feats prove that he is faster than Fox. Running on walls and water is not droven by his speed. Dodges machine fire with minimum efforts? Fox does that too but bullets are not that effective on him that's why he don't have to dodge everything.

Just like you said "Abscense of proof is not proof of abscense". You can't concider that Vamp is as strong as Fox only becauser he MIGHT have hold Rex foot. Otacon never was in situation where he had to support such weight, so we should assume that he POSSIBLY could do that? Come on! And crushing arm is not a big deal at all and is nowhere near as impressive as holding Rex's foot. And where the hell did you get that he "almost" crushed his hand. His hand wasn't that damaged after that happened. Vamp could've simply squeezed it hard, hell I can do that.

This is how their fight would be.
Vamp throws his freezing staff at Fox, Fox dodges this attack easilly. Man i don't understand how can't you realise that if Raiden could dodge them Fox could do that with easy.(I know Raiden possibly never had to dodge them but it was possible during the fight so it means that he could).
Besides while fighting on the ground Vamp showed that his fighting speed isn't that great also. When he tries to attack you with knife he runs at you and his strike isn't really that fast.

Again, Vamp would never be able to freeze Fox. In close combat Fox simply cuts his head off. And you still didn't proved that knifes would really damage Fox armor...

I have shown proof, you haven't though. Fox lost his mind and then he was really fast, ok that's it. Also that he has invisibility which would make it even harder for us to see him. Now Fox used his sword to deflect bullets, that is true. But this is only speed in his hands, when he was supposed to dodge Rex bullets he ran around the place like a maniac, never got one moment to stop... Vamp did not move an inch everytime he dodged something...

Oh, so Vamp squeezed his arm in 1/2 second, ok, he is faster than even I thought then. Seriousley, Snake had to sleep after the fight because his arm was bleeding like hell and hurting. When Vamp dropped him on the floor Snake coulden't do anything....

WTF. How come you make it seem like Vamp is going to toss it once, then attack with normal attacks. From what we know, he could toss them when Fox is not prepared, see where Fox is going to land, or simply when Fox is trying to attack him...

When has Vamp fought on equal ground? He jumps around places like a freaking maniac, no one can see him because he is so fast. Fox is invisible, that is why none of them see him....
Again, gameplay. Fox in gameplay is slow as a bastard, he is the easiest boss in the game execluding Ocelot. He totally sucks in gameplay...

Well they woulden't really fly off directly, they could pierce themself to the suit or just knock him really hard. Not much of an attack, but sure something...

You make it seem so easy for Fox. He could not cut Snake that easily, Vamp is not going to be easier. And I doubt he would die of that. ^

And actually, there is no proof Raiden defeated him. From what we saw, Vamp stood in the EXACT same place as he was before the fight. He was also drowning (which does not mean that Raiden won, only that Vamp could no longer fight because he was dragged down underwater). Vamp had also no more gunbullets in his head, only the previous one. Shoulden't there be a mark on him if he got hit again? He could just have been dragged down because the water was really strong....

Originally posted by kamikz
I have shown proof, you haven't though. Fox lost his mind and then he was really fast, ok that's it. Also that he has invisibility which would make it even harder for us to see him. Now Fox used his sword to deflect bullets, that is true. But this is only speed in his hands, when he was supposed to dodge Rex bullets he ran around the place like a maniac, never got one moment to stop... Vamp did not move an inch everytime he dodged something...

Oh, so Vamp squeezed his arm in 1/2 second, ok, he is faster than even I thought then. Seriousley, Snake had to sleep after the fight because his arm was bleeding like hell and hurting. When Vamp dropped him on the floor Snake coulden't do anything....

WTF. How come you make it seem like Vamp is going to toss it once, then attack with normal attacks. From what we know, he could toss them when Fox is not prepared, see where Fox is going to land, or simply when Fox is trying to attack him...

When has Vamp fought on equal ground? He jumps around places like a freaking maniac, no one can see him because he is so fast. Fox is invisible, that is why none of them see him....
Again, gameplay. Fox in gameplay is slow as a bastard, he is the easiest boss in the game execluding Ocelot. He totally sucks in gameplay...

Well they woulden't really fly off directly, they could pierce themself to the suit or just knock him really hard. Not much of an attack, but sure something...

You make it seem so easy for Fox. He could not cut Snake that easily, Vamp is not going to be easier. And I doubt he would die of that. ^

And actually, there is no proof Raiden defeated him. From what we saw, Vamp stood in the EXACT same place as he was before the fight. He was also drowning (which does not mean that Raiden won, only that Vamp could no longer fight because he was dragged down underwater). Vamp had also no more gunbullets in his head, only the previous one. Shoulden't there be a mark on him if he got hit again? He could just have been dragged down because the water was really strong....

So if Fox was running during dodging it means he is slower??

His arm wasn't bleeding, you can't tell that he "almost" smashed his arm. Yes it hurt him so what? It doesn't prove anything, he had to rest. Doesn't prove that he almost lost his arm. How can you really concider that he almost lost it? After that incident he took numerous armed soldiers, fought Fortune and jumped from arsenal gear. He couldn't have done that if his arm was that damaged.

So we should concider that Vamp would be tossing them during the whole fight? Even if so Fox would react easilly.

During the gameplay Vamp sometimes was jumping down. He was trying to cut raiden and this attack was really slow. And he also was a peace of cake int the game.

Come on man. According to you Vamp bowed to Raiden and sank instantly. Vamp hasn't any other bullets because it would be just stupid. Such things are showed only in cutsence, never during the gameplay.
Raiden obviously defeated him in the fair fight and since Vamp is tough it's almost for sure that the fight lasted for sometime. Vamp can stay underwater for long so he'd never sink for no reason...

Originally posted by samishe
So if Fox was running during dodging it means he is slower??

His arm wasn't bleeding, you can't tell that he "almost" smashed his arm. Yes it hurt him so what? It doesn't prove anything, he had to rest. Doesn't prove that he almost lost his arm. How can you really concider that he almost lost it? After that incident he took numerous armed soldiers, fought Fortune and jumped from arsenal gear. He couldn't have done that if his arm was that damaged.

So we should concider that Vamp would be tossing them during the whole fight? Even if so Fox would react easilly.

During the gameplay Vamp sometimes was jumping down. He was trying to cut raiden and this attack was really slow. And he also was a peace of cake int the game.

Come on man. According to you Vamp bowed to Raiden and sank instantly. Vamp hasn't any other bullets because it would be just stupid. Such things are showed only in cutsence, never during the gameplay.
Raiden obviously defeated him in the fair fight and since Vamp is tough it's almost for sure that the fight lasted for sometime. Vamp can stay underwater for long so he'd never sink for no reason...

It shows that Vamp was much better at seeing the shots coming and alot faster at dodging, he had a much easier time doing it. I would grant that as very good moving speed... And my point wasen't that he was running at the same time, he did not do it half as effectivly as Vamp did, and that Vamp did not need to move is another point. The thing is though, Vamp cannot spin just like that, then the shots would hit him. It can't be that they bounce of him either. He must move to fast to be seen to the sides, faster than anything Fox has shown. Yes, I'd put that as proof of speed....

Yes it was, why do you think he needed bandage and a drug on his arm?
Mabey I overreacted when I said almost punched of his arm, but Fox did the same (but he kicked and was an in-air overhead kick, which would be much harder) and it didn't hurt Snake a bit. Also the thing was that Vamp aimed for the gun, which would again prove effective if he actually was going to punch the shit out of him....
Snake was useless at the exact moment after he hit his arm, even minutes after, he had to sleep to go on, so he was pretty much defeated at that point....

??? lol.

WTF. Ok let's compare them in gameplay. Fox cannot reach him because he is really slow and gets hit alot on the ground, he cannot parry his knifes because they come over his head which is impossible for him to parry. Vamp is damn fast when running and striking, Fox is not....

Seriousley, did you see Vamp toyed those Navy Seals? Sure, Fox did the same to some guards, when he was invisible (they didn't know WTF was going on, they even thought it was a ghost) and revealed himself when there was one guard left...

Mabey he didn't sink instantly, mabey Raiden shot at him, he tried to dodged and lost his control over the water and fell down. And even if he got shot does not mean that Raiden won, it means Vamp failed to kill him because he was dragged underwater...
And showing another bullet wound would not be useless, why did they do it in the first place?

And don't you think that swiming in a water that would kill a man instantly when getting it in his lungs and would drag him to the bottom in a second is impressive? He did it for a hell of a long time too...

IMO I think threads with Vamp should be delayed because we don't know if he can even be killed. From what we know, he can't, but when MGS 4 comes out, we will find out. It is impossible to say really...

Vamp has this one.

For one Vamp took on "The Solid Snake" even when Snake had the advantage. Vamp got him by the throat and lifted him off the ground.

Secondly it is seen that when Vamp leaps over Raiden and lands behind him, Raiden is still turning around and was only spared by Snakes incoming fire.

Thirdly Vamp was shot in the head by a PSG-1 and survived.



Its called deduction. You don't seem to understand that. Vamp for one would never have the need to be stepped on by Metal Gear Rex.

There is a difference in being stamped on by a big foot and being stabbed. The only thing it proves is that Fox has strong arms and thats all. Sure if Metal Gear Rex's foot was shaped like a knife it would have sliced through Fox no problem because of its decreased surface area.

Originally posted by kamikz
It shows that Vamp was much better at seeing the shots coming and alot faster at dodging, he had a much easier time doing it. I would grant that as very good moving speed... And my point wasen't that he was running at the same time, he did not do it half as effectivly as Vamp did, and that Vamp did not need to move is another point. The thing is though, Vamp cannot spin just like that, then the shots would hit him. It can't be that they bounce of him either. He must move to fast to be seen to the sides, faster than anything Fox has shown. Yes, I'd put that as proof of speed....

Yes it was, why do you think he needed bandage and a drug on his arm?
Mabey I overreacted when I said almost punched of his arm, but Fox did the same (but he kicked and was an in-air overhead kick, which would be much harder) and it didn't hurt Snake a bit. Also the thing was that Vamp aimed for the gun, which would again prove effective if he actually was going to punch the shit out of him....
Snake was useless at the exact moment after he hit his arm, even minutes after, he had to sleep to go on, so he was pretty much defeated at that point....

??? lol.

WTF. Ok let's compare them in gameplay. Fox cannot reach him because he is really slow and gets hit alot on the ground, he cannot parry his knifes because they come over his head which is impossible for him to parry. Vamp is damn fast when running and striking, Fox is not....

Seriousley, did you see Vamp toyed those Navy Seals? Sure, Fox did the same to some guards, when he was invisible (they didn't know WTF was going on, they even thought it was a ghost) and revealed himself when there was one guard left...

Mabey he didn't sink instantly, mabey Raiden shot at him, he tried to dodged and lost his control over the water and fell down. And even if he got shot does not mean that Raiden won, it means Vamp failed to kill him because he was dragged underwater...
And showing another bullet wound would not be useless, why did they do it in the first place?

And don't you think that swiming in a water that would kill a man instantly when getting it in his lungs and would drag him to the bottom in a second is impressive? He did it for a hell of a long time too...

IMO I think threads with Vamp should be delayed because we don't know if he can even be killed. From what we know, he can't, but when MGS 4 comes out, we will find out. It is impossible to say really...

Fox even not in stealth mode was moving as fast as Vamp was ziping to the walls.

Even when Snake was sleeping with his damaged hand he was ready to kill Raiden if he aimed at him. He really wasn't that hurt, he simply was tired.

I don't know where Fox kicked Snake cause as i already said a never played twin snakes and i don't remember anything like that in MGS. But even if so, effect of simple kick may not last as long as if someone with superpowers squezzed your hand.

In the gameplay Vamp wasn't capable of dodging stinger, granades and even punches. Not a very good feat in his favour. Fox is as fast in striking as Vamp. Try to remember Vamp's attack on the ground, it was as if he was a normal human. He was running over Raiden and trying to stab him. It was slow and easy to dodge.

Vamp wasn't killed by that water because of one reason, water is his source of life. Actually water keeps him alive. So he should've taken some hard beating from Raiden to sink in his own "source of life".

Originally posted by Zen2nd
Vamp has this one.

For one Vamp took on "The Solid Snake" even when Snake had the advantage. Vamp got him by the throat and lifted him off the ground.

Secondly it is seen that when Vamp leaps over Raiden and lands behind him, Raiden is still turning around and was only spared by Snakes incoming fire.


So Raiden wasn't fast enough to turn around but was fast enough to react at Snake's shout and lie on the ground? And he was fast enough to defeat Vamp one-on-one.

Originally posted by samishe
Fox even not in stealth mode was moving as fast as Vamp was ziping to the walls.

Even when Snake was sleeping with his damaged hand he was ready to kill Raiden if he aimed at him. He really wasn't that hurt, he simply was tired.

I don't know where Fox kicked Snake cause as i already said a never played twin snakes and i don't remember anything like that in MGS. But even if so, effect of simple kick may not last as long as if someone with superpowers squezzed your hand.

In the gameplay Vamp wasn't capable of dodging stinger, granades and even punches. Not a very good feat in his favour. Fox is as fast in striking as Vamp. Try to remember Vamp's attack on the ground, it was as if he was a normal human. He was running over Raiden and trying to stab him. It was slow and easy to dodge.

Vamp wasn't killed by that water because of one reason, water is his source of life. Actually water keeps him alive. So he should've taken some hard beating from Raiden to sink in his own "source of life".

When was Fox doing that?

LOL Hell no. That was just a fun point, and Snake was indeed wounded. He had not been at Big Shell for long, why would he need to sleep if he was not wounded? Snake even said he needed to do it because of his hand. And you could shoot Snake in the head and he would still shoot back. "zOMG Snake can take bullets to the head"....

Ok well play it. And nowhere in the normal MGS does he show the calibre of speed that Vamp shows. Also, Vamp could not squeez. How can you squeez someones hand in 1/2 a second and cause their weapon to FLY out of their hands? He just hit him that's all....

Why do you still judge gameplay? Vamp was very capable, even there, to dodge stingers, he just jumped to the other side and they flew into the wall. Fox was very slow in gameplay, you could out run him easily, and if you closed the distance Fox sucked. Vamp was also one hell of a tougher boss than Fox... stop comparing gameplay anyway....

What? Where is you're proof? As far as I'm conserned, I was the one that brought up that ASSUMPTION up on this forum, there is really nothing to tell that is is his source of life, why would it be? He said himself, "I cannot die twice".

Originally posted by samishe
So Raiden wasn't fast enough to turn around but was fast enough to react at Snake's shout and lie on the ground? And he was fast enough to defeat Vamp one-on-one.

There, you just proved Vamp's speed. He was jumping behind him faster than Snake could shout, "get down". And when Snake shot, Vamp was already gone.. And Raiden only prolonged Vamp from killing him...

Originally posted by kamikz
When was Fox doing that?

LOL Hell no. That was just a fun point, and Snake was indeed wounded. He had not been at Big Shell for long, why would he need to sleep if he was not wounded? Snake even said he needed to do it because of his hand. And you could shoot Snake in the head and he would still shoot back. "zOMG Snake can take bullets to the head"....

Ok well play it. And nowhere in the normal MGS does he show the calibre of speed that Vamp shows. Also, Vamp could not squeez. How can you squeez someones hand in 1/2 a second and cause their weapon to FLY out of their hands? He just hit him that's all....

Why do you still judge gameplay? Vamp was very capable, even there, to dodge stingers, he just jumped to the other side and they flew into the wall. Fox was very slow in gameplay, you could out run him easily, and if you closed the distance Fox sucked. Vamp was also one hell of a tougher boss than Fox... stop comparing gameplay anyway....

What? Where is you're proof? As far as I'm conserned, I was the one that brought up that ASSUMPTION up on this forum, there is really nothing to tell that is is his source of life, why would it be? He said himself, "I cannot die twice".

Big Boss was sleeping in that hause in MGS3 after he met Eva. And he wasn't wounded. So why shouldn't Snake?

Never shown? How about when he cuts ocelot's hand? Or during the fight?

You are the one who started judging gameplay. You said Fox wasn't taugh during that fight. So i said that Vamp wasn't either and Raiden was capable of punching him in close combat.

You are not the one who brought that assumptioned it was obvious since MGS2 came out. Have you noticed that eveytime after being "killed" Vamp somehow contacts with water? First time when Fortune cried at him, second during the fight, third time during the head shot on the bridge.

Originally posted by kamikz
There, you just proved Vamp's speed. He was jumping behind him faster than Snake could shout, "get down". And when Snake shot, Vamp was already gone.. And Raiden only prolonged Vamp from killing him...

I just proved that Vamp wasn't fast enough to cut Raiden in the time that was enough for Raiden to listen to Snake and get to the ground.

Originally posted by samishe
Big Boss was sleeping in that hause in MGS3 after he met Eva. And he wasn't wounded. So why shouldn't Snake?

Never shown? How about when he cuts ocelot's hand? Or during the fight?

You are the one who started judging gameplay. You said Fox wasn't taugh during that fight. So i said that Vamp wasn't either and Raiden was capable of punching him in close combat.

You are not the one who brought that assumptioned it was obvious since MGS2 came out. Have you noticed that eveytime after being "killed" Vamp somehow contacts with water? First time when Fortune cried at him, second during the fight, third time during the head shot on the bridge.

OMG. So if Big Boss sleeps DURING NIGHT TIME and has just crashed with a shuttle, having his hand trampled by a horse, having being beaten by the Boss and fighting a whole bunch of guards on the way, this means Snake will do the same when he has entered the mission 10 minutes ago? Seriousley, he even pointed out that he needed REST because of his hand..And Big Boss had all reason to sleep too. And I repeat, it was night...

When he cut Ocelot's hand, he sat in the roof and was on his way down AND was invisible, wow, great speed...
During the fight? You mean the cut scene where he gets his ass kicked by Snake?

LMAO, no you judged from gameplay first. I showed you by using you're exact arguments of gameplay by saying Fox is slow, and you continued. You were the one who first brought up, "Vamp is slow during gameplay, you can easily kick him when he runs with his knifes".

I said, first one on this forum. And it is still an assumption, just because of that doesen't mean it is true. How exactly does water heal him? When he was 10 the whole church he was in blew up, every one died except him. He also got a pierced by a cross through his stomach. There, he did not need water.... It could be coincidence, especially since he said himself that he has already died once and cannot die again....

Originally posted by samishe
I just proved that Vamp wasn't fast enough to cut Raiden in the time that was enough for Raiden to listen to Snake and get to the ground.

Have you seen that cut scene? Vamp just stands there and looks at Raiden. Then he slowly starts raising his hand when Snake fires. By then, Vamp is already gone.

Originally posted by kamikz
OMG. So if Big Boss sleeps DURING NIGHT TIME and has just crashed with a shuttle, having his hand trampled by a horse, having being beaten by the Boss and fighting a whole bunch of guards on the way, this means Snake will do the same when he has entered the mission 10 minutes ago? Seriousley, he even pointed out that he needed REST because of his hand..And Big Boss had all reason to sleep too. And I repeat, it was night...

When he cut Ocelot's hand, he sat in the roof and was on his way down AND was invisible, wow, great speed...
During the fight? You mean the cut scene where he gets his ass kicked by Snake?

LMAO, no you judged from gameplay first. I showed you by using you're exact arguments of gameplay by saying Fox is slow, and you continued. You were the one who first brought up, "Vamp is slow during gameplay, you can easily kick him when he runs with his knifes".

I said, first one on this forum. And it is still an assumption, just because of that doesen't mean it is true. How exactly does water heal him? When he was 10 the whole church he was in blew up, every one died except him. He also got a pierced by a cross through his stomach. There, he did not need water.... It could be coincidence, especially since he said himself that he has already died once and cannot die again....

Big Boss was in the middle of the mission aswell and you know forget about it. It doesn't really matter why he fell asleep, it was just obvious that his hand was just fine in a half of hour. Fox was grapping soldiers and smashing them to walls so they were dieing instantly. So again that damaging hand is NOT impressive.

Vamp was shot by a sniper rifle from a great distance when he was hiding behind Emma. WOW! What a great reaction and speed!
Do you know how fast bullets fly? If you look at scene where Fox dodging Rex in slow mo you can see that he is moving almost as fast as bullets that he dodge.

Whatever. You said it first on this forum... But it was kinda obvious to me when i played MGS2. So if he can't die twice why the hell he was lieing there unconcious for some time before Fortune started crying?

Originally posted by kamikz
Have you seen that cut scene? Vamp just stands there and looks at Raiden. Then he slowly starts raising his hand when Snake fires. By then, Vamp is already gone.

So he killed ten soldiers but made an acception for Raiden? Why is that? If he really had enough time why didn't he killed him?

Originally posted by samishe
Big Boss was in the middle of the mission aswell and you know forget about it. It doesn't really matter why he fell asleep, it was just obvious that his hand was just fine in a half of hour. Fox was grapping soldiers and smashing them to walls so they were dieing instantly. So again that damaging hand is NOT impressive.

Vamp was shot by a sniper rifle from a great distance when he was hiding behind Emma. WOW! What a great reaction and speed!
Do you know how fast bullets fly? If you look at scene where Fox dodging Rex in slow mo you can see that he is moving almost as fast as bullets that he dodge.

Whatever. You said it first on this forum... But it was kinda obvious to me when i played MGS2. So if he can't die twice why the hell he was lieing there unconcious for some time before Fortune started crying?

Snake was in the beginning of the mission, he had not fought yet, not much anyway.

Yes it is. After 1 attack, Snake was almost unconscious and could not do a shit to defend himself against Vamp, they both survived because Vamp was going to pick up the president. Snake rested because his hand was wounded. Those things were more than anything Fox did to Snake. Sure, Fox managed to kill some of the guards when he was invicible, but they were still only guards that would not be anything against Snake, Snake took Fox down.

What? He had been shot in the head before, and just came out of the water after he had stayed there for a miraculasley long time. And tell me, how do you dodge a bullet from a sniper you don't see, and how do you dodge it when you're holding a person and your cutting her throat? Vamp did not realise that Emma was being guarded by Raiden with a sniper and there is nothing he could do.
Did you miss the cut scene where Vamp dodges fire easily as hell when Raiden is about 2-3 meters away from him and firing an M-16, full auto.
I could say as well that Fox got hit when he was fighting Rex, who only fired 2 machine guns and from a far away distance. zOMG, Fox suxs..

He wasen't prepared mabey. Mabey it took him some time to be revived, who knows, it is still only an assumption. And how would water heal him? His skull should have cracked each and every time, and his brain should have been blown away. Water does not heal that.... He is a vampire btw, they are pretty much unkillable.

Something is telling me that we are doing this over and over again, and no one is agreeing with the other. Seems like a waste of time....

Originally posted by samishe
So he killed ten soldiers but made an acception for Raiden? Why is that? If he really had enough time why didn't he killed him?

The S3 system. (Solid Snake Simulation). A wannabe Shadow moses, to prove that anyone could be Solid Snake, even a rookie. Everything was scheduled by the patriots, they planned for Raiden to survive...

Originally posted by kamikz
Snake was in the beginning of the mission, he had not fought yet, not much anyway.

Yes it is. After 1 attack, Snake was almost unconscious and could not do a shit to defend himself against Vamp, they both survived because Vamp was going to pick up the president. Snake rested because his hand was wounded. Those things were more than anything Fox did to Snake. Sure, Fox managed to kill some of the guards when he was invicible, but they were still only guards that would not be anything against Snake, Snake took Fox down.

What? He had been shot in the head before, and just came out of the water after he had stayed there for a miraculasley long time. And tell me, how do you dodge a bullet from a sniper you don't see, and how do you dodge it when you're holding a person and your cutting her throat? Vamp did not realise that Emma was being guarded by Raiden with a sniper and there is nothing he could do.
Did you miss the cut scene where Vamp dodges fire easily as hell when Raiden is about 2-3 meters away from him and firing an M-16, full auto.
I could say as well that Fox got hit when he was fighting Rex, who only fired 2 machine guns and from a far away distance. zOMG, Fox suxs..

He wasen't prepared mabey. Mabey it took him some time to be revived, who knows, it is still only an assumption. And how would water heal him? His skull should have cracked each and every time, and his brain should have been blown away. Water does not heal that.... He is a vampire btw, they are pretty much unkillable.

Something is telling me that we are doing this over and over again, and no one is agreeing with the other. Seems like a waste of time....

Yeah he almost killed Snake and Raiden and then was defeated by Raiden only. And what did you expect to see when they present a new villian? Yes, they showed him a badass but then he lost like all others.

First of all he new Raiden is aiming at him, he was looking right at you and was on purpose hiding behind Emma.

Fox sux... Sounds like a fanboy.

He wasn't ready? For what? For being killed? You know if you can recover in 15 seconds after your brain is shot you're supposed to be able to recover in two seconds aswell.

Quit then

Originally posted by kamikz
The S3 system. (Solid Snake Simulation). A wannabe Shadow moses, to prove that anyone could be Solid Snake, even a rookie. Everything was scheduled by the patriots, they planned for Raiden to survive...

And they also planned to repeat Snake's story with Raiden instead of Snake. And Vamp BTW was a replacement for Fox. Just like Solidus for Big boss.

Originally posted by samishe
Yeah he almost killed Snake and Raiden and then was defeated by Raiden only. And what did you expect to see when they present a new villian? Yes, they showed him a badass but then he lost like all others.

First of all he new Raiden is aiming at him, he was looking right at you and was on purpose hiding behind Emma.

Fox sux... Sounds like a fanboy.

He wasn't ready? For what? For being killed? You know if you can recover in 15 seconds after your brain is shot you're supposed to be able to recover in two seconds aswell.

Quit then

We have gone over this a 100 times already...

What was he going to do, smile at you? He didn't see Raiden, if we judge from the cut scene, Vamp just stabs her then gets shot. How should Vamp be able to se Raiden from that position, and how should he dodge it while holding Emma? His goal there was to kill her...

WTF. Did you read it clearly? "I could say"... I was just arguing like you, that because Fox got hit once he sux bullshit...( Wow, impressive. He got shot by a sniper when holding a hostage....) I know he doesen't suck..

If you wanna waste you're time, sure, we will continue..

Originally posted by samishe
And they also planned to repeat Snake's story with Raiden instead of Snake. And Vamp BTW was a replacement for Fox. Just like Solidus for Big boss.

No, Olga was the replacement for Fox..

My money would be on Grey Fox. He was amazin.

His goal by coming to Shadow moses was to fight Snake again. He said he would not get any peace until he fought Snake to the death, and that he did. We saw Fox getting pwned badly. How can someone fake getting hit in a metal suit? By as far as we know, Snake would have broke his legs and hands if he punched like that, but apparently he could.
Fox also hit him with swords and tossed a giant part of the roof against Snake, if Snake had not dodged those he would have been dead for sure. Snake defeated him end of story....

It still does not take away the fact that it was Plot Induced Stupidity. Had Snake been killed by Fox then the game would have come to an end, and the players would not have been able to continue MGS. I am not taking away from the fact Snake did kick his ass, but given what we know of Cyborg Ninja it is a large stretch for Snake to beat him in hand to hand combat.

And you make it seem like Fox speed > Everything Snake has. That is not true. You guys have never played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before have you? There Snake defeates a guy named "running man" or something like that. He is the fastest man alive, Snake defeates him without much struggeling. He did it thanks to his skill and his wit. Then he defeated a man who was incredibly strong, THEN he also defeats Big Boss when he has a machine gun and Snake is UNARMED, again thanks to his skill, speed and wit. Big Boss was the best soldier every and Snake was a rookie. He also completed a mission Fox didn't get near completing and he defeated Fox in a battle after getting through a helluva place. Now, for a long time Fox has near dead and revived by a serum and the exo skeleton. So nothing should really have improved on Fox except his speed and his strenght. Apparently, Snake has defeated people who relied on these feats AND Snake has gotten even better and more experienced than when he faced Fox before. I think it is pretty ****ing likley Snake defeated him fair and square....

So because A > B we're lead to believe A > C? I will say it again it was PIS. Unless Snake's fist is in fact stronger than REX's armor it is PIS. I do not think Fox's speed alone outclasses Snake. The fact is we're talking about FOX-HOUND's best agent codenamed FOX. The only man to ever receive that codename. Second only to Big Boss and Big Boss's right hand. The Exo-skelleton increased Fox's reaction time, his speed, his endurance and his strength. Granted Snake has become much more experience since the time they fought in the mine field. However by the time of Sons of Liberty his genetic flaw has kicked and he has started to age at an alarming rate. Solid Snake did in fact rescue FOX, but have you forgotten what we find out later? Fox working for Big Boss.

Really, the only time I've seen Fox match Vamp in speed was when he freaked out thanks to the drugs he got in his suit. That made him go berserk and was not able to control himself. He is not good in this state, only faster and stronger...

It is more likley that Vamp if any, faked against Raiden. There were many times he could have killed him there, and so could many people have done. Raiden was supposed to have survived, it was the S3 systems plan, to make it look like a new Shadow Moses.

I am the one who sees no evidence proving Vamp is in the same speed league as Cyborg Ninja.

So it's okay for Vamp to be hurt by PIS, but not Cyborg Ninja? Cyborg Ninja was in fact looking for a final battle with Solid Snake, but what he desired the most was an end to his tortured existence. May I remind you Fox's last words to Snake?

Gray Fox to Solid Snake: "Now in front of you. I can finally die. After Zanzibar, I was taken from the battle neither truly alive nor truly dead... an undying shadow in the world of lights. But soon... soon. It will finally...end."

Me too, to bad we won't. But he showed incredible strenght by tossing knifes through helmets and killing instantly that way, and almost causing Snake too loose his arm by one punch, then almost rendering him unconscious by grabing his forehead.

Vamp would easily dodge Rex fire. He dodged fire from several machine guns at the same time, without even leaving his position. And these were fired from experienced Navy Seals and marksmen, and from a pretty close distance too. I doubt he would have to budge an inch when dodging Rex canons. As we saw from Fox, he had to run all over the place when he lost his sword....

He showed incredible strength doing that? Fox showed an unbelievable ammount of strength. That you cannot deny. When we see Vamp tossing cars left and right we will begin arguing Vamp's strength, but so far he cannot be placed in the same tier as Cyborg Ninja.

Are you delusional? How do you compare machine gun fire to the rate of REX's Rail Gun? The Rail Gun's rate of fire is faster than Machine Gun fire. If Vamp was to fight REX head on he would be destroyed as far as I can tell.

What? When Fox lost his arm he was no longer being able to fight. He didn't even manage to dodge the slow knee of Metal Gear. He clearly reacted to it (screaming before it comes) but was too wounded. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him really...
I doubt Vamp would die easily. How do we know his bones are breakable, if he even has any. He is a vampire, his head got shot twice by a SOCOM and once by a PSG-1. That thing could shoot someone with such an impact that they would fly over 10 meters, and has mm Nato ammo which pierces through armour and is really deadly normally. If that would not crack his skull then what would?

Fox was not out of the fight when he lost his arm. In fact it was then when he destroyed the redome. Even Liquid Snake himself was impressed by Fox's determination. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him? How about his exo-skelleton resisting Fox's weight twice before finally becoming a river of blood in the floor. How do we know his bones are breakable? Well the 2 bullets fired at him did in fact pierce though his skull, did they not? I don't recall ever seeing them bounce off. Far more resistant when compared to normal bones yes, but not unbreakable.

Of course Fox should be able to dodge the freezing stuff, but exactly under what circomstances? Vamp could throw one when they are throwing hits at eachother or seeing where Fox is going to land, it also only has to be close to him...
And Vamp could read Raiden's moves, he did several times in the beginning. He can see how Fox moves by looking at his metal suit, he does not need to see his skin, harder to read muscles but an expert in reading it anyway....

Of course Vamp could throw the freezing stunt when they're fighting; however Fox is not a rookie. Vamp will not be laughing his ass off and mocking while fighting Fox. In my opinion he would be paying more attention to Fox's HF blade and his attacks instead of thinking about freezing him. Even if Vamp manages to freeze him what will he do? Stab him to death? Somehow I don't see that happeneing. You seem to have a very specific memory. Vamp himself states he cannot read Raiden's moves when they encounter each other in Shell 2. Vamp reads what his opponents can do by the movements of their muscles. So I ask you this: what is an exo-skelleton? If you know the answer to this you will know Vamp will never be able to read Fox's moves.

Lets not forget what S3 really stands for :P

Er...his exoskelleton resisting Rex's weight ...LoL funny typos >>;

Originally posted by kamikz
We have gone over this a 100 times already...

What was he going to do, smile at you? He didn't see Raiden, if we judge from the cut scene, Vamp just stabs her then gets shot. How should Vamp be able to se Raiden from that position, and how should he dodge it while holding Emma? His goal there was to kill her...

WTF. Did you read it clearly? "I could say"... I was just arguing like you, that because Fox got hit once he sux bullshit...( Wow, impressive. He got shot by a sniper when holding a hostage....) I know he doesen't suck..

If you wanna waste you're time, sure, we will continue..

Simple, small move head to the right would've saved him from that shot.
And still he knew Raiden was there since Raiden had to blow up mines on Emma's way. It's hard not to notice that.

And I said that only in respone for your "wow, great speed..."

Isn't that what forums for? For discussing.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
His goal by coming to Shadow moses was to fight Snake again. He said he would not get any peace until he fought Snake to the death, and that he did. We saw Fox getting pwned badly. How can someone fake getting hit in a metal suit? By as far as we know, Snake would have broke his legs and hands if he punched like that, but apparently he could.
Fox also hit him with swords and tossed a giant part of the roof against Snake, if Snake had not dodged those he would have been dead for sure. Snake defeated him end of story....

It still does not take away the fact that it was Plot Induced Stupidity. Had Snake been killed by Fox then the game would have come to an end, and the players would not have been able to continue MGS. I am not taking away from the fact Snake did kick his ass, but given what we know of Cyborg Ninja it is a large stretch for Snake to beat him in hand to hand combat.

And you make it seem like Fox speed > Everything Snake has. That is not true. You guys have never played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before have you? There Snake defeates a guy named "running man" or something like that. He is the fastest man alive, Snake defeates him without much struggeling. He did it thanks to his skill and his wit. Then he defeated a man who was incredibly strong, THEN he also defeats Big Boss when he has a machine gun and Snake is UNARMED, again thanks to his skill, speed and wit. Big Boss was the best soldier every and Snake was a rookie. He also completed a mission Fox didn't get near completing and he defeated Fox in a battle after getting through a helluva place. Now, for a long time Fox has near dead and revived by a serum and the exo skeleton. So nothing should really have improved on Fox except his speed and his strenght. Apparently, Snake has defeated people who relied on these feats AND Snake has gotten even better and more experienced than when he faced Fox before. I think it is pretty ****ing likley Snake defeated him fair and square....

So because A > B we're lead to believe A > C? I will say it again it was PIS. Unless Snake's fist is in fact stronger than REX's armor it is PIS. I do not think Fox's speed alone outclasses Snake. The fact is we're talking about FOX-HOUND's best agent codenamed FOX. The only man to ever receive that codename. Second only to Big Boss and Big Boss's right hand. The Exo-skelleton increased Fox's reaction time, his speed, his endurance and his strength. Granted Snake has become much more experience since the time they fought in the mine field. However by the time of Sons of Liberty his genetic flaw has kicked and he has started to age at an alarming rate. Solid Snake did in fact rescue FOX, but have you forgotten what we find out later? Fox working for Big Boss.

Really, the only time I've seen Fox match Vamp in speed was when he freaked out thanks to the drugs he got in his suit. That made him go berserk and was not able to control himself. He is not good in this state, only faster and stronger...

It is more likley that Vamp if any, faked against Raiden. There were many times he could have killed him there, and so could many people have done. Raiden was supposed to have survived, it was the S3 systems plan, to make it look like a new Shadow Moses.

I am the one who sees no evidence proving Vamp is in the same speed league as Cyborg Ninja.

So it's okay for Vamp to be hurt by PIS, but not Cyborg Ninja? Cyborg Ninja was in fact looking for a final battle with Solid Snake, but what he desired the most was an end to his tortured existence. May I remind you Fox's last words to Snake?

Gray Fox to Solid Snake: "Now in front of you. I can finally die. After Zanzibar, I was taken from the battle neither truly alive nor truly dead... an undying shadow in the world of lights. But soon... soon. It will finally...end."

Me too, to bad we won't. But he showed incredible strenght by tossing knifes through helmets and killing instantly that way, and almost causing Snake too loose his arm by one punch, then almost rendering him unconscious by grabing his forehead.


He showed incredible strength doing that? Fox showed an unbelievable ammount of strength. That you cannot deny. When we see Vamp tossing cars left and right we will begin arguing Vamp's strength, but so far he cannot be placed in the same tier as Cyborg Ninja.

Are you delusional? How do you compare machine gun fire to the rate of REX's Rail Gun? The Rail Gun's rate of fire is faster than Machine Gun fire. If Vamp was to fight REX head on he would be destroyed as far as I can tell.

What? When Fox lost his arm he was no longer being able to fight. He didn't even manage to dodge the slow knee of Metal Gear. He clearly reacted to it (screaming before it comes) but was too wounded. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him really...
I doubt Vamp would die easily. How do we know his bones are breakable, if he even has any. He is a vampire, his head got shot twice by a SOCOM and once by a PSG-1. That thing could shoot someone with such an impact that they would fly over 10 meters, and has mm Nato ammo which pierces through armour and is really deadly normally. If that would not crack his skull then what would?

Fox was not out of the fight when he lost his arm. In fact it was then when he destroyed the redome. Even Liquid Snake himself was impressed by Fox's determination. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him? How about his exo-skelleton resisting Fox's weight twice before finally becoming a river of blood in the floor. How do we know his bones are breakable? Well the 2 bullets fired at him did in fact pierce though his skull, did they not? I don't recall ever seeing them bounce off. Far more resistant when compared to normal bones yes, but not unbreakable.



Of course Vamp could throw the freezing stunt when they're fighting; however Fox is not a rookie. Vamp will not be laughing his ass off and mocking while fighting Fox. In my opinion he would be paying more attention to Fox's HF blade and his attacks instead of thinking about freezing him. Even if Vamp manages to freeze him what will he do? Stab him to death? Somehow I don't see that happeneing. You seem to have a very specific memory. Vamp himself states he cannot read Raiden's moves when they encounter each other in Shell 2. Vamp reads what his opponents can do by the movements of their muscles. So I ask you this: what is an exo-skelleton? If you know the answer to this you will know Vamp will never be able to read Fox's moves.

It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...

He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...

Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.

And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...

Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.

Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....

Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...


No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....

ok people go to snake vs raiden vote on who wins out of those two and i will determine who wins

Originally posted by samishe
Simple, small move head to the right would've saved him from that shot.
And still he knew Raiden was there since Raiden had to blow up mines on Emma's way. It's hard not to notice that.

And I said that only in respone for your "wow, great speed..."

Isn't that what forums for? For discussing.

Except we don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I guess that can change for both of us so......

Vamp didn't see that, he was under water. I don't think he was thinking like this, "wow, Emma is here, no mines killed her, hmmm, must be standing a guy snipering at....THAT position..." And he had already been fired in the head and had swam a long way, doesen't that normally tire people out?

It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...

We also saw Cyborg Ninja evading REX's Rail Gun. We also see him withstanding REX's leg and resisting it's force. We also see Fox's exo-skelleton enduring getting pinned 2 times before the final one makes him a goner. It isn't really that hard to see how PIS CN vs SS was in MGS. Had Fox been fighting and moving with the speed, strength and endurance he has shown Solid Snake would not stand a chance. Fox's HF blade alone rendered Solid Snake's weapons useless, and he kept himself from using it against him insisting on having a hand to hand fight.

He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...

Good points. I have one question though, when and where was it stated how long it took Fox to achieve that rank?

Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.

The strength comes into play when the HF blade is swung by an individual like Gray Fox.

And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...

By far? You're stretching it.

Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.

When Gray Fox was heading to Otacon's cell the Genome soldiers were firing at him. He was basically at the same range Vamp was when he deflected the bullets prior to Raiden's first encounter. When was Raiden firing the M16 at Vamp? Are you talking about the fight itself(gameplay)? If that's the case it's also possible to have Snake fire an automatic riffle at CN and have CN deflect every single bullet. Alright no problem forgetting about that line. Too many lines in the game anyways. However when was it stated that Vamp was a master at knowing what people are going to do without reading their muscles?

Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....

The reason he was in no position to fight, as you call it, was because he got rammed against the wall by REX's cockpit. That is why Fox was unable to move. When his arm got sliced off he leaped a good number of feet up to blast the radome. So it is quite possible for Fox to fight with just one arm. What incapacitated him was REX's cockpit pinning him against the wall.

Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...

The fact the bullet didn't bounce off his forhead is proof enough for me.

No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....

Do you even know how the freezing stuff works? It is based on shadows. Next time you play MGS2 have Raiden shoot the lights. It rids him of his shadow and renders Vamp's freezing stunt useless. Now suppose Fox is fighting Vamp with his Stealth Camo on: how will it work on him? And even if it worked Cyborg Ninja's reaction time is greater/faster than that of Raiden, and Raiden did manage to break free of the stunt quite fast.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...

We also saw Cyborg Ninja evading REX's Rail Gun. We also see him withstanding REX's leg and resisting it's force. We also see Fox's exo-skelleton enduring getting pinned 2 times before the final one makes him a goner. It isn't really that hard to see how PIS CN vs SS was in MGS. Had Fox been fighting and moving with the speed, strength and endurance he has shown Solid Snake would not stand a chance. Fox's HF blade alone rendered Solid Snake's weapons useless, and he kept himself from using it against him insisting on having a hand to hand fight.

He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...

Good points. I have one question though, when and where was it stated how long it took Fox to achieve that rank?

Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.

The strength comes into play when the HF blade is swung by an individual like Gray Fox.

And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...

By far? You're stretching it.

Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.

When Gray Fox was heading to Otacon's cell the Genome soldiers were firing at him. He was basically at the same range Vamp was when he deflected the bullets prior to Raiden's first encounter. When was Raiden firing the M16 at Vamp? Are you talking about the fight itself(gameplay)? If that's the case it's also possible to have Snake fire an automatic riffle at CN and have CN deflect every single bullet. Alright no problem forgetting about that line. Too many lines in the game anyways. However when was it stated that Vamp was a master at knowing what people are going to do without reading their muscles?

Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....

The reason he was in no position to fight, as you call it, was because he got rammed against the wall by REX's cockpit. That is why Fox was unable to move. When his arm got sliced off he leaped a good number of feet up to blast the radome. So it is quite possible for Fox to fight with just one arm. What incapacitated him was REX's cockpit pinning him against the wall.

Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...

The fact the bullet didn't bounce off his forhead is proof enough for me.

No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....

Do you even know how the freezing stuff works? It is based on shadows. Next time you play MGS2 have Raiden shoot the lights. It rids him of his shadow and renders Vamp's freezing stunt useless. Now suppose Fox is fighting Vamp with his Stealth Camo on: how will it work on him? And even if it worked Cyborg Ninja's reaction time is greater/faster than that of Raiden, and Raiden did manage to break free of the stunt quite fast.

There is a difference. The clone troopers in Star Wars had armour that resisted the impact of a laser blast, but the impact was too much on their suits and they lost their breath and could not fight, most of them died because of this, thus most were still alive when they were lying on the battle field. This could be the deal here, most likley it is...
And you seem to forget that Snake did fight Fox when he used his HF sword, and used his speed, still Fox ran away. Fox was not holding back here, he got one of those drug attacks, but only a minor, he saw everything in red. First he was talking to Snake, probably gonna propose the same battle as he did later on, but when it kicked in his only goal was to kill him, he even attacked first...

Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...

Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...

As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....

I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...

There is a difference. The clone troopers in Star Wars had armour that resisted the impact of a laser blast, but the impact was too much on their suits and they lost their breath and could not fight, most of them died because of this, thus most were still alive when they were lying on the battle field. This could be the deal here, most likley it is...
And you seem to forget that Snake did fight Fox when he used his HF sword, and used his speed, still Fox ran away. Fox was not holding back here, he got one of those drug attacks, but only a minor, he saw everything in red. First he was talking to Snake, probably gonna propose the same battle as he did later on, but when it kicked in his only goal was to kill him, he even attacked first...

Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...

Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...

As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....

I fail to see how SW fits in all of this. First off Snake's punches are not blaster fire, bullets, lasers nor blades. Flesh and bone, and no matter how hard Snake may hit it still does not equal the force behind REX's stomping. Fox did not lose consciousness, nor did he lose his breath when he got smashed by it. Technically Snake's fists should've broken the moment his punch hit Cyborg Ninja's exo-skelleton. I'm glad you brought that up. True Fox and Snake went at it with weapons, but seriously what would've happened if Fox did not halt his sword's momentum? Snake's head would have been sliced off at the cost of what? Taking a shot from Snake's S.O.C.O.M? He could've easily evaded it in the process, but no he decided not to. Why? Plot induced stupidity. Also Fox did get hit by REX's railgun when he decided to dash towards REX. The railgun did not stop him. Snake's S.O.C.O.M ammo would must likely tickle Fox at best.

Where can I confirm this information? Actually stating it took Fox 5 years. Also Snake had the Solid Snake codename given to him the moment he was born. Quite in fact it's possible he was given the codename since the moment they started the whole Les Enfants Terrible experiment.

What I meant by the shadows is that the shadows are key to making the freezing a success. So if Cyborg Ninja has no shadow it will be rendered useless. Vamp will be punching/stabbing Fox with enough force to make him visible(shadow) and then proceed to freeze him? Given how fast they both are(and I am getting out of my character and making them equal speedwise) it will only happen if Fox is standing there like a moron. Which in an all out brawl free of Plot Stupidity will simply not happen.

A brief recap of why I believe Fox will finish Vamp off:

a) Superior Strength
b) Superior Speed
c) Superior Resistance
d) Equal skills--if not superior
e) Better weapons

I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...

I seriously think you're doing this on purpose. Cyborg Ninja was fast enough to run all over Rex's railgun, jumping, flipping, cartwheeling. When the Genome soldiers/Solid Snake fire at him he simply stands there and deflects them with his arms/HF blade because there is no need to put more effort into it.

Originally posted by kamikz
Except we don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I guess that can change for both of us so......

Vamp didn't see that, he was under water. I don't think he was thinking like this, "wow, Emma is here, no mines killed her, hmmm, must be standing a guy snipering at....THAT position..." And he had already been fired in the head and had swam a long way, doesen't that normally tire people out?

People yes but he isn't human and i'm still sure that water keeps him alive. There may not be logical explanation of that but many things in MGS are not explaned. Like how the hell Fortune saved everyone from Ray's missiles when her gadget wasn't already working. So it turned out that she was lady luck even without that technology. What a coincidence!

Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...

Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...

As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....

I fail to see how SW fits in all of this. First off Snake's punches are not blaster fire, bullets, lasers nor blades. Flesh and bone, and no matter how hard Snake may hit it still does not equal the force behind REX's stomping. Fox did not lose consciousness, nor did he lose his breath when he got smashed by it. Technically Snake's fists should've broken the moment his punch hit Cyborg Ninja's exo-skelleton. I'm glad you brought that up. True Fox and Snake went at it with weapons, but seriously what would've happened if Fox did not halt his sword's momentum? Snake's head would have been sliced off at the cost of what? Taking a shot from Snake's S.O.C.O.M? He could've easily evaded it in the process, but no he decided not to. Why? Plot induced stupidity. Also Fox did get hit by REX's railgun when he decided to dash towards REX. The railgun did not stop him. Snake's S.O.C.O.M ammo would must likely tickle Fox at best.

Where can I confirm this information? Actually stating it took Fox 5 years. Also Snake had the Solid Snake codename given to him the moment he was born. Quite in fact it's possible he was given the codename since the moment they started the whole Les Enfants Terrible experiment.

What I meant by the shadows is that the shadows are key to making the freezing a success. So if Cyborg Ninja has no shadow it will be rendered useless. Vamp will be punching/stabbing Fox with enough force to make him visible(shadow) and then proceed to freeze him? Given how fast they both are(and I am getting out of my character and making them equal speedwise) it will only happen if Fox is standing there like a moron. Which in an all out brawl free of Plot Stupidity will simply not happen.

A brief recap of why I believe Fox will finish Vamp off:

a) Superior Strength
b) Superior Speed
c) Superior Resistance
d) Equal skills--if not superior
e) Better weapons

I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...

I seriously think you're doing this on purpose. Cyborg Ninja was fast enough to run all over Rex's railgun, jumping, flipping, cartwheeling. When the Genome soldiers/Solid Snake fire at him he simply stands there and deflects them with his arms/HF blade because there is no need to put more effort into it.

Yes, but why didn't he break his legs and his hands? You can't blame it all on bad plotting or anything, that is the way it happened. And why would Fox fake a damage, he did indeed feel damage, watch the scene where he fights Snake again, Snake is not even breathing hard himself....
You are saying that you have seen Fox doing so much more then when he fights Snake, but that was when fighting normal guards and was invisible to their eyes. Snake pwned Fox in unarmed, and they stalemated when both were fighting. Fox was not prepared for the gun Snake aimed to his face, and Snake was not prepared for that strike. Saying that "Fox would have dodged it easily" does not fit since he did not do it, even the best can be surprised. And we saw Snake dodge many strikes from his sword as well so.....

Ok, let's take it like this... How can you judge someone to be the best, if only through a mere choice of some missions? He had to complete a hell of alot of them to get that ranking, and he was there in five years, it should have taken him at least some years to aquire that. Since Snake completed missions that Fox didn't, and the most incredible missions given to any Foxhound member, still only aquired a better codename than before. (He did indeed get a new codename, but I have to check it up)

Answere why it must be shadows.... And even if it is, the stealth belt is easily disrupted....

And again, in that room he had speed in his arms apparently, and when fighting Rex he ran at normal speed against it and lost his helmet on the way. If Vamp was there he would be flying all over the room, just like he did in the beginning...

I belive Vamp would win because....

Superior speed.
Near/invurnable
Doesen't have a hearth beat, undead.
Equal/more skills.
And the weapons, well, those are pretty good. One hell of an army with tossing knifes, a bowie knife for melee, that freezing shit.

I think this battle can be very good decided in where they are, what is the terrain? That could be it....

Vamp is very strong too, I mean, he can swim in Liquid water that is supposed to clean up oil, that has near no buoyancy at all. It will be next to impossible to swim there, and to breath it in would be fatal. Raiden is a strong man, still he gets dragged there within a second. Vamp swims around there like it was normal. Then he fataly wounds Snake's arm in one hit and lifts him over the ground with one hand, and holds him down on the ground with one too.
I'm not implying that he is above Fox in strenght, but he is damn strong anyway....
And as shown from Vamp's fighting movement, it seems much more effective than Fox's. You see the scene where a guard opens full auto on Vamp, he spinns and quickly spinns around him and on the way, he cuts him 3-4 times, then cuts his throat.....

Edit: 2 Shots from a vulcan made his helmet totally disappear, it trashed like it was nothing. If you said that it took an extreme rate of fire when running into his fire then that is wrong, it came nearer and nearer, then it hit him, he lost his helmet, and instead started to grind on the floor to avoid it. Then he barley dodged the head of it and got his arm cut off.
And need I reminde you that Snake was also fighting Metal Gear, a whole lot longer than Fox, so Snake would also have to encounter that kind of shooting, and survive..... He dodged Metal Gear's knee as well, he jumped up on it then jumped away when it came down. (Beginning scene).

Just watched that cut scene where Vamp first appeared.
He didn't even squeezed or punched Snake's hand he simply cut it. And there was no wonder that not Raiden nor Snake gave him normal fight because they both were like "WTF??" Raiden was just standing and watching at him, he didn't expected Vamp to move that superhumanly fast. And when Snake came in he was far from both of them and he didn't realised who he was fighting with. He only saw that he shot someone who then dissapeared. Then Vamp attacked when Snake couldn't see him.

well lets take a vote who thinks grey fox wins

Can somone remind me of Grey Fox by posting a pic?

Oh don't know who he is yet still thinking.

Yes, but why didn't he break his legs and his hands? You can't blame it all on bad plotting or anything, that is the way it happened. And why would Fox fake a damage, he did indeed feel damage, watch the scene where he fights Snake again, Snake is not even breathing hard himself....
You are saying that you have seen Fox doing so much more then when he fights Snake, but that was when fighting normal guards and was invisible to their eyes. Snake pwned Fox in unarmed, and they stalemated when both were fighting. Fox was not prepared for the gun Snake aimed to his face, and Snake was not prepared for that strike. Saying that "Fox would have dodged it easily" does not fit since he did not do it, even the best can be surprised. And we saw Snake dodge many strikes from his sword as well so.....

Ok, let's take it like this... How can you judge someone to be the best, if only through a mere choice of some missions? He had to complete a hell of alot of them to get that ranking, and he was there in five years, it should have taken him at least some years to aquire that. Since Snake completed missions that Fox didn't, and the most incredible missions given to any Foxhound member, still only aquired a better codename than before. (He did indeed get a new codename, but I have to check it up)

Answere why it must be shadows.... And even if it is, the stealth belt is easily disrupted....

And again, in that room he had speed in his arms apparently, and when fighting Rex he ran at normal speed against it and lost his helmet on the way. If Vamp was there he would be flying all over the room, just like he did in the beginning...

I belive Vamp would win because....

Superior speed.
Near/invurnable
Doesen't have a hearth beat, undead.
Equal/more skills.
And the weapons, well, those are pretty good. One hell of an army with tossing knifes, a bowie knife for melee, that freezing shit.

I think this battle can be very good decided in where they are, what is the terrain? That could be it....

Vamp is very strong too, I mean, he can swim in Liquid water that is supposed to clean up oil, that has near no buoyancy at all. It will be next to impossible to swim there, and to breath it in would be fatal. Raiden is a strong man, still he gets dragged there within a second. Vamp swims around there like it was normal. Then he fataly wounds Snake's arm in one hit and lifts him over the ground with one hand, and holds him down on the ground with one too.
I'm not implying that he is above Fox in strenght, but he is damn strong anyway....
And as shown from Vamp's fighting movement, it seems much more effective than Fox's. You see the scene where a guard opens full auto on Vamp, he spinns and quickly spinns around him and on the way, he cuts him 3-4 times, then cuts his throat.....

I can't blame the plot for the fact Snake didn't break his hands? There is nothing else to be blamed. Should Snake hit that exo-skelleton his hands would break. It is obvious why they did not. So saying that CN could have easily dodged the bullet does not fit? Because he didn't? PIS. But since neither Vamp nor Cyborg Ninja use gunfire while fighting I'll stop arguing about it.

You're indeed coming up with your own conclusions as to how long it took Gray Fox to achieve his rank. Show me the evidence where it states he took him "long" to achieve said rank. Snake already had his codename before he joined FOX-HOUND. Liquid Snake had the same codename, so did Solidus and Solidus never joined FOX-HOUND.

It must be shadows simply because when you fight Vamp if you shoot the lights and thus make Raiden have no visible shadow whenever Vamp tries to freeze him it fails.

So Fox was running at normal speed when dodging REX's railgun? Okay. No comment there if you actually believe he was running at normal speed. At the very least FOX was moving at extremely high velocities given that's how fast REX's railgun is. Speed in his arms only? So you're assuming the Exo-Skelleton only increased the speed in his arms? I don't see that being the case with his performance against REX.

Superior Speed? Vamp is not as fast as Gray Fox. At his very best I'd consider them equals
Near Invulnerability? A bullet simply pierced his forhead. Quite in fact both times he got shot in the face he was down for a while until he came in contact with water. REX's bullets are indeed more deadly than the bullets Vamp swallowed, and Fox didn't even slowdown when he got hit by REX's railgun. I give him the fact he is most likely an undead, but then again losing his head would render him useless in the fight unless he grabs it with one hand and has the head order his body where to attack etc.
Weapon Wise he is screwed. His arsenal is no where near as effective as Cyborg Ninja's. The HF Blade alone outclasses his knives. Then you have his arm-cannon thing which destroyed the radome. Then you have his Chaff-like interference.

Vamp is strong all right. But no where near Gray Fox's league in his Exo-Skelleton.

Oh yeah Vamp is indeed impressive when he is taking on the SEALs. Fox is also impressive when he makes pizza slices out of the genome soldiers. Vamp's also impressive when he is taking on Snake. He is also impressive when he evades all of REX's firepower and finally destroys the radome.

Fact of the matter is Vamp has not done anything that would be impossible for Fox to do.

ok mates just take a look at this "conversation" of yours. it must be the most frantic discussion I've ever seen. what is it about anyway? I'm not gonna read it.

Ish, I stopped this when there was no point, I was not convinced and neither were the persons I debated with. Vamp does not have a beating hearth and his brain is already dead, you cannot kill him. But since we don't have MGS 4 yet we don't know. The thing is that Vamp has shown moving speed above Fox (yes, Snake ran with a STINGER on his back and were still faster than Vulcan raven when firing his machine gun). It does not only increase in arms, but it seems to be the only place he is faster than Vamp.

Seriousley, Vamp is not a killable person until we find out in MGS 4 (if he can be killed at all...). But as I am not gonna go assuming that he can be killed anymore, I'm not gonna debate this.....

I don't know why people you brought this thread back but
Kamikz, I disagree that Vamp showed that he is faster than Fox. And I doubt that Vamp could heal if he gets his head cut. Besides I replayed MGS2 again and it absolutly for sure that he needs whater to get back to life. Fortune was seating near him and whining for a few mintues. Raiden was already on the upperfloor when Vamp woke up and it happened right after Fortune's tear fell on him. Anyway he was unconcious for a few minutes. If Fox could get him into this state than I believe we could concider he won.

It is not logical that his hearth is not beating while he fights and other stuff, but when he is shot, he dies.... And he could wait until Raiden is gone to stop Fatman just to wake up...

Whatever, I don't care, let's buery this thread again shall we?

Originally posted by kamikz
It is not logical that his hearth is not beating while he fights and other stuff, but when he is shot, he dies.... And he could wait until Raiden is gone to stop Fatman just to wake up...

Nah, Vamp was completly dead, atleast for a few minutes.

Originally posted by kamikz Whatever, I don't care, let's buery this thread again shall we?

Ok, sounds good to me...

Tada!