Bible Scholars: Please Give me the answer

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ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him.

Jury
Part of the newlywed couple's plan is to create family. It starts with both of them. Then, raising kids. Of course, parents don't intend to create disobedient kids. This couple, nevertheless, knew that by raising kids, there will be times they would disobey. But why do you think they'd still want to raise kids?

ROYALGUARD
holy crap... best answer. best explanation. good rhetorical question. ty for enlightenin me. i thought i posted a dificult answer. but you answered it in 1 sitting.

Eis
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him.
You think you'll find bible scholars in KMC? laughing

AOR
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
holy crap... best answer. best explanation. good rhetorical question. ty for enlightenin me. i thought i posted a dificult answer. but you answered it in 1 sitting.

Wait till Finit/Shaky/Debbi get in here, you might think differently

Jury: Good answer as always...

Evil Dead
but I thought god was omnipotent.......all knowing.....creates everything in the exact fashion he wants to, right down to the tendency to disobey or not to disobey. How is he to be compared to a normal man or woman who simply engages in sex?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Jury
Part of the newlywed couple's plan is to create family. It starts with both of them. Then, raising kids. Of course, parents don't intend to create disobedient kids. This couple, nevertheless, knew that by raising kids, there will be times they would disobey. But why do you think they'd still want to raise kids? That's not a good example.. roll eyes (sarcastic)
Originally posted by AOR
Wait till Finit/Shaky/Debbi get in here, you might think differently

big grin .........I'm the nice god.....It's finti that's the mean god....... evil face
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him. The god and Lucifer/nemesis story is older than Christianity and found in many old pagan beliefs. Yes if god is all knowing, then why didn't he not create lucifer??....See the flaw? The bible god is not all knowing. Either that or he is just as evil as lucifer for punishing countess billions for eternity for the sin of a fallen angel?

ROYALGUARD
debbiejo..
you challenge my christian beliefs and enlighten me with other religious beliefs. sorry for being limited to christianity...
but i think jury's answer is one of the best answer so far.unless you tell me something i dont know.

all i know now is some are created with a purpose. and some are created with no purpose. lucifer has a big role in this reality. hes the antagonist. i just dont know whats the purpose of having ''evil existance'' all i can think of is that every good story has a protagonist (jesus, other prophets and belivers) and antagonist (lucifer and his devil armies) but theres also minor characters like us who serve no purpose but to serve our own indulgence. God will end His story or His reality in His own way. could be the metaphoric symbols of the book revelations or could be the big crunch.

if i interpreted jury's reply correctly. God gave lucifer a free will. but lucifer's purpose is to serve God eternity. so one eternity later, Lucifer got ''bored'' and decided to take over and be a god himself. God already knew that Lucifer will do this. But God didnt intend to do so.

Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.

But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.

Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.

If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

ROYALGUARD
Originally posted by Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.

But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.

Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.

If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

woah now that just blew my mind. now i imagine God created us then he said before we are born ''go have fun my child''

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.

But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.

Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.

If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

Excellent quote and point.

Phoenix2001
Originally posted by Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.

But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.

Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.

If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

I think I like you.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him.

I'm not a bible scholar. But I think he/she created Lucifer as a necessary evil. You know all that stuff about the balance of good and evil in the world....we can't know what good is without evil.... and such...and such...

Janus Marius
So obviously in that light God sees evil in itself as a sort of good... And I don't mean that in some nonresponsible relativistic way either; I'm saying that having evil there to challenge and define good is apparently part of God's plan, IF the scriptures are indeed accurate.

debbiejo
To everything there is an equal to or opposite reaction...

Mindship
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I think I like you.


notworthy

RedAlertv2
Because Lucifer throws awesome parties

peejayd
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him.

* God, in the Bible, is not all-knowing or omniscient... there is something God does not know or prefer not to be involved with... for example...

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind :"
Jeremiah 19:5

* the evil people in the time of Prophet Jeremiah burned their children to offer to an idol named Baal... which God never commanded them to do so, neither it came into His mind that they would do such a horrible thing... wink

* on to the topic: God created the everything and what is His overall conclusion?

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* everything God made was good... cool

* God didn't made Lucifer evil... Lucifer is an angel, and good angel at first... but what happened next is not God's fault...

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High ."
Isaiah 14:12-14

* Lucifer's heart was filled with jealousy and desired to be like God...

* so your next question might be: why didn't God destroy Lucifer after Lucifer rebelled against Him? as i've quoted earlier, Lucifer too is a spirit, and spirits don't die...

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels ; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
Luke 20:36

* how to defeated Lucifer? the last judgment: the punishment for the evil and his followers -> ETERNAL DAMNATION... the punishment is eternal because spirits don't die... wink

debbiejo
Originally posted by peejayd

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High ."
Isaiah 14:12-14

* Lucifer's heart was filled with jealousy and desired to be like God...

If you read it in context it is speaking about the King of Babylon in a metaphorical way as the bible does.

Isaiah 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
If you read it in context it is speaking about the King of Babylon in a metaphorical way as the bible does.

Isaiah 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer , son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations !"
Isaiah 14:12

* when did you see the King of Babylon fell from heaven?

* and he is the Satan, the Devil that weakened the nations...

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9

* yes, that's Lucifer... wink

Atlantis001
Originally posted by debbiejo
The god and Lucifer/nemesis story is older than Christianity and found in many old pagan beliefs.

Thats the better way too look at it. Its not surprising that it could be contradictory in the bible since we ignoring what it orinally meant. We are trying to give meaning to a misinterpretation of some other older pagan concepts.

debbiejo
Peejayd....The Bible uses metaphorical language all the time..........some books are like poetry also.....Revelations is symbolic from a so called vision...not to be taken literally.......

Satan is not a real person. The story is based on older myths...

http://www.castleofspirits.com/origindevils.html

Also "Son of the Morning or Morning Star" refers to the Planet Venus...Jesus was also call the "Morning Star' along with Lucifer....At that time period much astronomy/astrology played a part...

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
Peejayd....The Bible uses metaphorical language all the time..........

* all the time? nope...

Originally posted by debbiejo
some books are like poetry also.....Revelations is symbolic from a so called vision...not to be taken literally.......

* there are some symbolisms in the book of Revelation but not all...

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9

* if this verse is not literal, what does this verse symbolizes? nope... this verse is NOT symbolical... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan is not a real person. The story is based on older myths...

* yes, because Satan is not a person... he is a spirit... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
Also "Son of the Morning or Morning Star" refers to the Planet Venus...Jesus was also call the "Morning Star' along with Lucifer....At that time period much astronomy/astrology played a part...

* are we talking about the same book? i was answering the topic according to the Bible, bro...

* yes, Christ was also called a "morning star" but in Isaiah 14:12-14, Satan is the one who is depicted as the "morning star" who fell from heaven... wink

debbiejo
I didn't say like every single time...Do you want me to rephrase......ok.....many times


This was a supposed vision...Visions are symbolic, look at Daniel
Satan is not a real identity spirit either.Lucifer was adopted by the ancient Hebrews and retooled Shahar God of the dawn, Jerusalem means 'House of Shalem' and has ties to the worship of Venus the 'Bringer of Light'. In the Christian context it was cleric Origenes Adamantius of the early Greek Church who first claimed Lucifer was the Devil, a concept championed by Augustine of Canterbury in 7th century England based on mistranslation. Lucifer was equated with Satan by St. Jerome in his Vulgate which claimed he was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who tempted Adam & Eve to transgress. He erroneously translated 'Heylel', which means Venus in Hebrew, into Lucifer and an allusion to Satan when it wasn't. One of the reasons he equated Lucifer with Satan was politics, his hatred of an orthodox movement started in the 4th century by the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus, who founded a group called the Luciferians. By equating Lucifer with Satan he ensured that his heretical views on Christ's divinity and relationship with Jahova, etc, would be thought Satanic and not resuscitated.

There is no scriptural source designating Lucifer as Satan, nonetheless the Church taught he was an angel cast out of heaven because he wanted to take over the throne of Jahova. However it would be religious popular fiction which would cement Lucifer as another face of Satan, the 'Divine Comedy' by Alighieri Dante and 'Paradise Lost' by John Milton . It was at this period Mephistopheles entered the lexicon of Hell's overlord, the name a play on Lucifer, meaning 'not loving the light'. It has no scriptural basis, it's a medieval literary creation in the Faust novella which became an accepted part of Christian mythology in the same way Dante's view of Hell or Milton's view of Satan came to define the church position.

Jonathan Mark
Lucifer is a kick ass name...

Shame Satan took it or I'd get my named changed to Lucifer. stick out tongue

Belegūr

debbiejo
Where are our Jewish friends to confirm Lucifer and this teaching?

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
I didn't say like every single time...Do you want me to rephrase......ok.....many times


* yet you said, "all the time"... metaphorical languages are used many times in the prophetic books and in the Revelation... however, in the other books, nope... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
This was a supposed vision...Visions are symbolic, look at Daniel


* visions both have symbolic and literal meanings... you should not generalize... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan is not a real identity spirit either.Lucifer was adopted by the ancient Hebrews and retooled Shahar God of the dawn, Jerusalem means 'House of Shalem' and has ties to the worship of Venus the 'Bringer of Light'. In the Christian context it was cleric Origenes Adamantius of the early Greek Church who first claimed Lucifer was the Devil, a concept championed by Augustine of Canterbury in 7th century England based on mistranslation. Lucifer was equated with Satan by St. Jerome in his Vulgate which claimed he was the serpent in the Garden of Eden who tempted Adam & Eve to transgress. He erroneously translated 'Heylel', which means Venus in Hebrew, into Lucifer and an allusion to Satan when it wasn't. One of the reasons he equated Lucifer with Satan was politics, his hatred of an orthodox movement started in the 4th century by the Bishop of Cagliari, Lucifer Calaritanus, who founded a group called the Luciferians. By equating Lucifer with Satan he ensured that his heretical views on Christ's divinity and relationship with Jahova, etc, would be thought Satanic and not resuscitated.

There is no scriptural source designating Lucifer as Satan, nonetheless the Church taught he was an angel cast out of heaven because he wanted to take over the throne of Jahova. However it would be religious popular fiction which would cement Lucifer as another face of Satan, the 'Divine Comedy' by Alighieri Dante and 'Paradise Lost' by John Milton . It was at this period Mephistopheles entered the lexicon of Hell's overlord, the name a play on Lucifer, meaning 'not loving the light'. It has no scriptural basis, it's a medieval literary creation in the Faust novella which became an accepted part of Christian mythology in the same way Dante's view of Hell or Milton's view of Satan came to define the church position.

* the name "Lucifer", yes... but Satan himself is in the Bible... he is the serpent being depicted in the book of Genesis written by Moses since 1500+ B.C., so again i'm telling you that i was answering according to the Bible and not from "other" books... wink

whobdamandog
Originally posted by Mindship
God's ultimate creation was a being with free will, a being which could actively choose not to believe in the existence of its creator and instead believe in its own freedom to choose.

But just in case that wasn't enough to make things interesting, God made Lucifer.

Think of imaginative play: if you imagine scenarios where everyone gets along and everything is nice and wonderful, how much fun is that? Would you watch a movie with no conflict? Free will, the Devil: all this God made to spice things up.

If nothing else, God has one helluva sense of humor.

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."
-- Voltaire

Insightful piece. But I don't believe God allows evil for the purpose of his own enjoyment.

As Neo from the Matrix put it, "the problem is choice."

There ain't no real love..if choice isn't involved.

Come to think of it, if I was God, I would have probably done the same thing.

lord xyz
Originally posted by ROYALGUARD
why did God created Lucifer? God is all knowing and he also knows that lucifer will betray him soon. then why did God still created Lucifer/satan?

although Im a christian myself i dont understand why God created him. it was made up.

A better question is, "why did it take god 6 days, when he can do anything?"

peejayd
Originally posted by lord xyz
it was made up.

A better question is, "why did it take god 6 days, when he can do anything?"

* yes, God can do anything... yet He did everything properly and orderly... and bro, the "days" are not literal 24-hour day... God is eternal and time does not limit God...

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day ."
II Peter 3:8

* one day or a thousand years is equal for God... He is eternal... He is beyond the scope of time... wink

King_Cobra_23
Originally posted by Evil Dead
but I thought god was omnipotent.......all knowing.....creates everything in the exact fashion he wants to, right down to the tendency to disobey or not to disobey. How is he to be compared to a normal man or woman who simply engages in sex?



well my friend lets set some records strait G-D did not "fashion" us to disobey he gave us whats called free will to follow his law or not and in doing this he has also given us Yeshua (Jesus) to save our souls from the firey pits of the smoking hell (which was only ment for satan and his fallen angels) and he created Lusifer with the same free will and he disobeyed the L-RD

debbiejo
The serpent is NEVER called Satan in the book of Genesis. And I am answering from other books which have just much validity as the bible.

That is only one verse, there are others as in the book of Genesis that state a day being "The evening and morning...ie the next day"....Rotations of the Sun........Yet another contradiction.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
The serpent is NEVER called Satan in the book of Genesis. And I am answering from other books which have just much validity as the bible.

* in the book of Genesis, yes... but the Bible comprises many books, not only Genesis... wink

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
I Timothy 2:14

* Eve was deceived by the serpent... who is the serpent?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9

* the serpent is Satan... and he is the one who deceived Eve... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
That is only one verse, there are others as in the book of Genesis that state a day being "The evening and morning...ie the next day"....Rotations of the Sun........Yet another contradiction.

* nope... God is eternal and He is not limited or in the boundaries of time...

* read this...

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night ; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth : and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night : he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night , and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day ."
Genesis 1:14-19

* yet God made the greater light to rule the day (sun) and the lesser light to rule the night (moon) only on the fourth day... yes, it was not a literal 24-hour day... wink

debbiejo
Hmmm Was that "Serpent" that Moses put on a stick or cross for the people to look upon also Satan???.........Revelation again is only symbolic as visions are..

I don't understand your last verses. It still sounds like a day and a night (24 hour period) to me..

So, are you saying that everything that happened on the 5th and 6th day all took place then on a 24 hour period..???
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

ZOOOOOOOOOM..........That was quite a speed up then....He put it in 2nd gear???

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
Hmmm Was that "Serpent" that Moses put on a stick or cross for the people to look upon also Satan???.........Revelation again is only symbolic as visions are..

* maybe you failed to read this...

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9

* it's funny how a "stick" can deceive the whole world... laughing out loud

Originally posted by debbiejo
I don't understand your last verses. It still sounds like a day and a night (24 hour period) to me..

So, are you saying that everything that happened on the 5th and 6th day all took place then on a 24 hour period..???

ZOOOOOOOOOM..........That was quite a speed up then....He put it in 2nd gear???

* if you don't understand, then don't give conclusions... wink

* the fact that the sun and moon was only established on the 4th day of the creation, it only means the entire 6 days of creation was not a 24-hour day... wink

debbiejo
It wasn't the stick they were praying to, it was the serpent on the stick... wink


.......OH, but what you said was that the 24 hour period started after the 4th day..........So saying this means the first days were long expanses, but after the 4th day god had a watch that kept linear 24 hour time....

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Shakyamunison
^ It's just a story. Do not take it literally.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
It wasn't the stick they were praying to, it was the serpent on the stick... wink

* now, that's unsound... not all serpents are Satan... wink


Originally posted by debbiejo
.......OH, but what you said was that the 24 hour period started after the 4th day..........So saying this means the first days were long expanses, but after the 4th day god had a watch that kept linear 24 hour time....

roll eyes (sarcastic)

* read back... never did i say the 24-hour day started on the 4th day of creation... i said, the sun and moon was only established on the 4th day of creation... wink

Lord Urizen
Look up "zoroastrianism"

This is a Persian religion which ALREADY had the idea of a God and a Lucifer.

Ahura Mazda is the supreme being and Azura Mainu or something like that is the devil.

There is also an Armaggedon and a Savior.



This religion came centuries before Judaism and Christianity.

People don't know this, and it's sad......

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Jury
Part of the newlywed couple's plan is to create family. It starts with both of them. Then, raising kids. Of course, parents don't intend to create disobedient kids. This couple, nevertheless, knew that by raising kids, there will be times they would disobey. But why do you think they'd still want to raise kids?

I think there might be a tiny bit of difference between a a couple having kids and hoping they will be good (but knowing there will be times they wont clean their room) and God creating someone who would betray him and go on to become the embodiment of evil and corruption and play a major part in the fall and do his best to lead God's children (who he apparently loves above all else) to eternal damnation, and knowing that would happen.

I wonder what would happen if the newlywed couple in your hypothetical were told "If you sleep together on the 24th of June two years from now you will conceive a child who will grow up to be his generations Hitler and Stalin combined. And whether you sleep together or not on that night you will still go on to have many more children in the years to come."

Hmmm. Might they possibly abstain from intercourse on that night? Or would they say "Well, it doesn't matter, even though we know *exactly* what happens our intentions are good, and as they say, you have to take the good with the bad, even though that bad is unimaginable horror."

Lord Urizen
Peejard,

You seem like a very intelligent guy !

Look up Zoroastrianism, and tell me what you think ! wink

debbiejo
ohhh, he wont do it. I asked him to look up hell, and Mithra too..........I think he's a pod person... wink

Lord Urizen
Do all Christians know that thier religion is soo similiar to Zoroastrianism?



And that Zoroastrianism came first? Derived from Greek influences on Persian people. Then influenced the development of Judaism, Christianity and Islam?


GOOGLE IT PEOPLE..its that simple.

Alliance
laughing out loud Its that simple to get them information.

Its antoher problem to get them to understand it all together.

peejayd
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejard,

You seem like a very intelligent guy !

Look up Zoroastrianism, and tell me what you think ! wink

* yes, there are similarities, but even if Zoroastrianism came first before Christianity, it does not make it the true religion... wink

Lord Urizen
Ofcourse not.

It makes all the religions false lol

Alliance
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, there are similarities, but even if Zoroastrianism came first before Christianity, it does not make it the true religion... wink

and yours is true because...?

debbiejo
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, there are similarities, but even if Zoroastrianism came first before Christianity, it does not make it the true religion... wink And also Dionysus, and Mithra all came before the story of Jesus.........Who's coping who?

Alliance
the Mithratic cult was CRAZY... their wild attempt at a takeover in Rome wacko

peejayd
* because of the Bible... translated or not, rewritten or not... the truth will come out sooner or later... even history acknowledges the existence of Jesus who was once crucified... wink

Alliance
Crucification makes me laugh. It was such a common punishment, used for a great many things, and now its become an international religous symbol. THe Romans would have laughed too I bet. The whole King of Jews with the crown of thorns thing was clever too. I can't say they weren't creative.

peejayd
* yeah... it really seems funny... however, the Catholics do that... nowhere in the Bible that tells Christians to exalt symbols or prayed in front of it... wink

Alliance
no...beacuse Christianity is not symbolized by the cross...confused

Punker69
Originally posted by peejayd
* God, in the Bible, is not all-knowing or omniscient... there is something God does not know or prefer not to be involved with... for example...

What about Psalms 139:1-6

O, lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

Job 42:2

I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

What you just said completely goes against scripture and underminds the God you serve.

Originally posted by peejayd
* so your next question might be: why didn't God destroy Lucifer after Lucifer rebelled against Him? as i've quoted earlier, Lucifer too is a spirit, and spirits don't die...

But can't God do anything? Including destroy spirits? Since he is allpowerful and all...

Alliance
peejard got punk'd

peejayd
Originally posted by Punker69
What about Psalms 139:1-6

What you just said completely goes against scripture and underminds the God you serve.

* nope... see the difference...

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart , I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Jeremiah 17:9-10

* and...

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart ."
Jeremiah 7:31

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind :"
Jeremiah 19:5

* confused

Originally posted by Punker69
But can't God do anything? Including destroy spirits? Since he is allpowerful and all...

* hell -> eternal damnation... wink

Alliance
I thik god created hell as a loophole for his inability to destroy spirits, meaning he is not all powerful.

peejayd
* nope... it falls into good harmony... spirits don't die, so evil spirits will suffer eternal damnation... wink

debbiejo
Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... it falls into good harmony... spirits don't die, so evil spirits will suffer eternal damnation... wink
Does not....I showed you that before.........Hell only means death...no where is it eternal damnation, suffering torment and such..........ONLY DEATH.....God, even Jews know this..........they've had the scriptures longer then Christians.....

Lord Urizen
I've read about something called Gaheena, "Lake of Fire" the SECOND DEATH...meaning the nullification of the Soul...

Punker and Peejard......what do you guys know about this ?

b-ball_chick
God created Lucifer as an angel, it was all part of Hia plan. YEs, God is all knowing and Great, but not even the wisest of men could find the specific answer because the ways of God cannot be found out. Our logic and mind hinders us.

Aziz!
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin

b-ball_chick
Another mere man. WHat does he know? He obviously doeasnt know God.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
Does not....I showed you that before.........Hell only means death...no where is it eternal damnation, suffering torment and such..........ONLY DEATH.....God, even Jews know this..........they've had the scriptures longer then Christians.....

* it does... i showed YOU that before... even in the Old Testament, it doesn't only means death... wink

Alliance
Originally posted by b-ball_chick
Another mere man. WHat does he know? He obviously doeasnt know God.

You are a mere woman, what can you possibly understand about god.

Lord Urizen
Peejard, so Hell is the death of the spirit, the death of thoughts, correct ?

peejayd
* uhm, mr."urizard"... hell is a place of eternal damnation, a place of torment... wink

Lord Urizen
Eternal Damnation?

Nah i dont beleive in that. Sorry

Place of Torment ? Ah...you mean like suicidal depression? Social isolation ? Self hatred?

Yeah yeah yeah, ive been there before, suckiest place on Earth. I don't think I'll be travelling there ne time soon wink

Lord Urizen
You know...the Rock is pro-gay rights incase u didnt knowwink

peejayd
* that's YOUR opinion... wink

Lord Urizen
Actually he is. He played a gay character in this movie with Uma Thurman, i forgot what its called

They asked him if he minded playing such a character, and he says no, that gay people are just like everyone else and deserve to be given the same rights and respects that everyone else gets.

He's pro gay

peejayd
* there is no problem being a pro-gay... wink

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Eternal Damnation?

Nah i dont beleive in that. Sorry

Place of Torment ? Ah...you mean like suicidal depression? Social isolation ? Self hatred?

Yeah yeah yeah, ive been there before, suckiest place on Earth. I don't think I'll be travelling there ne time soon wink

* THIS, what i said, is your opinion... wink

Lord Urizen
Yes it is my opinion. As is your beleif in Hell wink

Pro gay? i certainly am smile

Alliance
Urizen, you're stupid stick out tongue

its not being pro-gay that the issue. Good people (like me wink ) are jsut trying to same them from hell. Its the gays that should BURN!dev.




no expression

Alliance
Originally posted by Alliance
Urizen, you're stupid stick out tongue

its not being pro-gay that the issue. Good people (like me wink ) are jsut trying to save them from hell. Its the gays that should BURN!dev.




no expression

peejayd
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes it is my opinion. As is your beleif in Hell wink

* i'm afraid not... it's Biblical... wink

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pro gay? i certainly am smile

* good for you... stick out tongue

Lord Urizen
* i'm afraid not... it's Biblical...


Biblical does not mean TRUTH...that's where you fail to understand. It's all good though wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
* i'm afraid not... it's Biblical...


Biblical does not mean TRUTH...that's where you fail to understand. It's all good though wink

If truth = fact, then you are correct. If truth = inner guidance, then you are wrong. big grin

debbiejo
Originally posted by peejayd
* it does... i showed YOU that before... even in the Old Testament, it doesn't only means death... wink MEANING OF THE WORD
The real meaning of the word Stuart concedes to be the under-world, the religion of the dead, the grave, the sepulcher, the region of ghosts or departed spirits. (Ex. Ess.): "It was considered as a vast and wide dominion or region, of which the grave seems to have been as it were only a part or a kind of entrance-way. It appears to have been regarded as extending deep down into the earth, even to its lowest abysses. . . . . In this boundless region lived and moved at times, the names of departed friends."

But these five passages teach no such doctrine as he thinks they may teach. The unrighteous possessor of wealth goes down to death; the nations that forget God are destroyed as nations; lewd women's steps lead downward to death; their guests are on the downward road; the rod that wisely corrects the unruly child, saves him from the destruction of sin. There is no hint of an endless hell, nor of a post-mortem hell in these passages, and if not in these five then it is conceded it is in no passage containing the word.

That the Hebrew Sheol never designates a place of punishment in a future state of existence, we have the testimony of the most learned of scholars, even among the so-called orthodox. We quote the testimony of a few:

Rev. Dr. Whitby: "Sheol throughout the Old Testament, signifies not a place of punishment for the souls of bad men only, but the grave, or place of death." Dr Chapman: "Sheol, in itself considered has no connection with future punishment." Dr. Allen: "The term Sheol itself, does not seem to mean anything more than the state of the dead in their dark abode." Dr. Firbairn, of the College of Glasgow: "Beyond doubt, Sheol, like Hades, was regarded as the abode after death, alike of the good and the bad." Edward Leigh, who says Horne's, "Introduction," was "one of the most learned understanding of the original languages of the Scriptures," observes that "all learned Hebrew scholars know the Hebrews have no proper word for hell, as we take hell."

Prof. Stuart: "There can be no reasonable doubt that Sheol does most generally mean the underworld, the grave or sepulchre, the world of the dead. It is very clear that there are many passages where no other meaning can reasonably be assigned to it. Accordingly, our English translators have rendered the word Sheol grave in thirty instances out of the whole sixty-four instances in which it occurs."

Dr. Thayer in his Theology of Universalism quotes as follows: Dr. Whitby says that Hell "throughout the Old Testament signifies the grave only or the place of death." Archbishop Whately: "As for a future state of retribution in another world, Moses said nothing to the Israelites about that." Milman says that Moses "maintains a profound silence on the rewards and punishments of another life." Bishop Warburton testifies that, "In the Jewish Republic, both the rewards and punishments promised by Heaven were temporal only-such as health, long life, peace, plenty and dominion, etc., diseases, premature death, war, famine, want, subjections, captivity, etc. And in no one place of the Mosaic Institutes is there the least mention, or any intelligible hint, of the rewards and punishments of another life." Paley declares that the Mosaic dispensation "dealt in temporal rewards and punishments. The blessings consisted altogether of worldly benefits, and the curses of worldly punishments. Prof. Mayer says, that "the rewards promised the righteous, and the punishments threatened the wicked, are such only as are awarded in the present state of being." Jahn, whose work is the textbook of the Andover Theological Seminary, says, "We have no authority, therefore, decidedly to say, that any other motives were held out to the ancient Hebrews to pursue good and avoid evil, than those which were derived from the rewards and punishments of this life." To the same important fact testify Prof. Wines, Bush, Arnauld, and other distinguished theologians and scholars. "All learned Hebrew scholars know that the Hebrews have no word proper for hell, as we take hell."

If the word means a place of endless punishment, then David was a monster. Ps. 55:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol-Hadees!"

Job desired to go there. 14:13: "Oh, that thou wouldst hide me in Sheol-Hadees.

Hezekiah expected to go there.-Isa 38:10: "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of Sheol-Hadees.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

Lord Urizen
I think the major factor that goes into one's absolute acceptance of religious text is sentimentality.

Thier parents, thier priests, and thier like minded freinds all show them great love, which they feel in return in TRUE LOVE...and the only kind of love that counts.

They feel that if they question thier Faith AT ALL...they are not only betraying themselves and thier religion, but they are also betraying those people they LOVE dearly and therefore QUESTIONING anything about the Bible, even the contradictions is out of the question.


Sad and Understandable.....but still close minded.

Phoenix2001
I think faith is a misunderstood word...

If anyone wants to have faith... I think the best way is to have faith in themselves.

Alliance
Very good point.

Faith should not mean religious faith. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow morning, and that I will go to bed tonight. I don't think a god is doing it.

Phoenix2001
Those who are blindly religious will usually confuse the word faith with truth. So 99% of the time, anything they believe in, they automatically think that belief is the truth.

Alliance
That too.

Phoenix2001
But I'm not pointing any fingers. The same can happen even to the wisest of philosophers. It's just better not to get all tied up into one idea.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
If anyone wants to have faith... I think the best way is to have faith in themselves.

Only a fool would have true faith in themselves. We are not perfect and are destined to fail if we trust only in ourselves.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Nellinator
Only a fool would have true faith in themselves. We are not perfect and are destined to fail if we trust only in ourselves. Not true.............Being true to ones own self is TRUTH....and truth will set you free (quoting Scripture).............Follow your heart.............that will lead you to much happiness........don't follow someones else's heart.........You are a treasure......value yourself as such!!

Lord Urizen
Faith in oneself is foolish how ?

WE are ultamately ALL WE KNOW and have......

closeracing
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think the major factor that goes into one's absolute acceptance of religious text is sentimentality.


They feel that if they question thier Faith AT ALL...they are not only betraying themselves and thier religion, but they are also betraying those people they LOVE dearly and therefore QUESTIONING anything about the Bible, even the contradictions is out of the question.


Sad and Understandable.....but still close minded.

I think it is unreasonable to believe anything without asking questions, as long as they are honest questions. I also believe that if we have questions about the bible God will provide answers. If we are just trying to call God on the carpet with no real desire for truth he is under no obligation to answer.

.:Space Opera:.
Well, it shouldn't take a miracle for people to believe, but sadly that's what people expect. When you see a magician pull a rabbit out of his hat does that mean he is God? No. Faith takes stability in a belief, even though some facts may be astrewn. I have faith that my car won't break down on my way to work. Why? Because I've made sure that everything is working properly, I've done the RESEARCH on my car. Same goes for religious beliefs. But sometimes for unknown reasons the car breaks down because I OVERLOOKED something. Thats why it is so important to do the RESEARCH. Its sad that some people don't have cars...

When it comes to Christianity, I KNOW that Jesus lived, as for the Old Testiment, those stories are for christians to guide themselves through and find the answers on there own. What amazes me is how accurate the Gospel is and how tightly woven it is, even through endless translations.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
Well, it shouldn't take a miracle for people to believe, but sadly that's what people expect. When you see a magician pull a rabbit out of his hat does that mean he is God? No. Faith takes stability in a belief, even though some facts may be astrewn. I have faith that my car won't break down on my way to work. Why? Because I've made sure that everything is working properly, I've done the RESEARCH on my car. Same goes for religious beliefs. But sometimes for unknown reasons the car breaks down because I OVERLOOKED something. Thats why it is so important to do the RESEARCH. Its sad that some people don't have cars...

When it comes to Christianity, I KNOW that Jesus lived, as for the Old Testiment, those stories are for christians to guide themselves through and find the answers on there own. What amazes me is how accurate the Gospel is and how tightly woven it is, even through endless translations.




Honesty, despite our differences, I have nothing against Christians or Christianity in general.

I used to be Catholic, my family still is, and many of my freinds are.

I am only annoyed by ultra conservative Christians, but let me not go off topic......Space Opera, why are only 4 Gospels included in the Bible ? What about the Gospels of Tomas and judas? Are not all the words of the Bible directly inspired by God? If so, why would one be included and the other not?


Convienence.....hmm...i smell conspiracy yes

.:Space Opera:.
along with the gospels of tomas and judas, there is the gospels of mary magdeline and a few others too, but these were not actually written by any of the titled authors and were in fact written up to a hundred years after the DEATH of Jesus. these are called the gnostic gospels. the bible consists of the four gospels because these were written by the original desciples of jesus and were written only 20-30 years after the death of jesus. so when it comes down to it, why would they decide to put writings in the bible that were written by false authors? and also, who would you believe, the people who actually knew and had a defined relationship with jesus or people who lived a hundred years after him and had no contact with him at all? if you want i can give you a link to a good website that is non-bias that explains and detangles some of the false histoy written in things like the gnostic gospels and modern things like the da vince code.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by .messedpace Opera:.
along with the gospels of tomas and judas, there is the gospels of mary magdeline and a few others too, but these were not actually written by any of the titled authors and were in fact written up to a hundred years after the DEATH of Jesus. these are called the gnostic gospels. the bible consists of the four gospels because these were written by the original desciples of jesus and were written only 20-30 years after the death of jesus. so when it comes down to it, why would they decide to put writings in the bible that were written by false authors? and also, who would you believe, the people who actually knew and had a defined relationship with jesus or people who lived a hundred years after him and had no contact with him at all? if you want i can give you a link to a good website that is non-bias that explains and detangles some of the false histoy written in things like the gnostic gospels and modern things like the da vince code.


I heard that Mary Magdeline was not a prostitute, but in fact an Apostle of Christ. I heard evidence of this on The History Channel, I can supply you with info if you want me 2, i just have to go back and look.

What is your say on this ?

.:Space Opera:.
i believe that she was an unofficial desciple of christ. Jesus taught mary and spoke alot of scripture to her and guided her through man of her struggles. i dont know much about her, id have to do more research because i never really bothered reading the gnostic gospels. mary's role with jesus' desciples grew into somewhat of a conflict after the crucifiction because they were trying to decide who should lead the desciples and it came down to mary and john i believe, but the desciples, because of the time period, had difficulty believing mary, being a woman, could handle it. so apparently (agian i may be slightly mistaken) mary went off and started her own group of followers, and John did as well. i believe that mary was in fact very close to jesus, not as close as the da vinci code suggests. its hard to know for sure because th bible really isnt very precise on the subject.

Alliance
I think she was an apostle, but was deleted by the catholic church because they pretty much hated women. (well, at the time i guess erm)

debbiejo
I heard the same............and from what I've read, her and Jesus used to spend lots of time together talking..........Peter was jealous....

Alliance
and what better way to surpress many matriachial pagan religions?

debbiejo
The ruin of the church, though in my mind, I don't understand why that would be.............according to the bible Jesus was to experience all that was to be humman and that would include this.

Alliance
people don't like it if their gods become human.

debbiejo
Yes, and that would make the scipture false saying "Jesus is the perfect lamb cause he experienced all of humanity."

Alliance
Jesus as a lamb is pagan anyway. I dunno why Christians allow it.

debbiejo
True "Being washed in the blood of the lamb" was a literal thing........yes, real blood from a real lamb.

Alliance
ohhh...bloody Jesus...stick out tongue

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I think faith is a misunderstood word...

If anyone wants to have faith... I think the best way is to have faith in themselves. [/QUOTE

No thanks...I'm not going to heaven because of what I do. No way!

Alliance
Then why are you going?

peejayd
* Christ being symbolized as a Lamb is not pagan, it was a symbol used for Christ synonymously by the offered Lamb by Abraham in place for Isaac... remember, Isaac was the one to be killed and sacrificed but since Abraham proved to God his great obedience, the sacrifice was stopped by an angel, after that, Abraham saw a ram with its horns stuck in a thicket, the ram was sacrificed in place of Isaac... Isaac symbolizes the humanity, the ram symbolizes Christ who was sacrificed instead...

* Christ also symbolizes a Lion, a Worm, a Rock, a Salt, a Light, even Darkness, the Way/Path, and many others... but it does not mean its whole concept was pagan... true Christians stated in the Bible do not worship graven images...

sonnet
Originally posted by King_Cobra_23
well my friend lets set some records strait G-D did not "fashion" us to disobey he gave us whats called free will to follow his law or not and in doing this he has also given us Yeshua (Jesus) to save our souls from the firey pits of the smoking hell (which was only ment for satan and his fallen angels) and he created Lusifer with the same free will and he disobeyed the L-RD
Nicely explaned, but as the bible said, the concept of God and Godly ways can only be understood by the renewed spirit of man and not by the flesh. The worldly people who wants to find fault with God because they choose not to obey Him, cannot grasp God's purpose of giving free will to man.

sonnet
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ being symbolized as a Lamb is not pagan, it was a symbol used for Christ synonymously by the offered Lamb by Abraham in place for Isaac... remember, Isaac was the one to be killed and sacrificed but since Abraham proved to God his great obedience, the sacrifice was stopped by an angel, after that, Abraham saw a ram with its horns stuck in a thicket, the ram was sacrificed in place of Isaac... Isaac symbolizes the humanity, the ram symbolizes Christ who was sacrificed instead...

* Christ also symbolizes a Lion, a Worm, a Rock, a Salt, a Light, even Darkness, the Way/Path, and many others... but it does not mean its whole concept was pagan... true Christians stated in the Bible do not worship graven images...
And the Bible also says that God saw Jesus on the cross, slain like a lamb, long before man was created. So the Lamb image of Jesus was there long before any other beliefs.

sonnet
Originally posted by debbiejo
Yes, and that would make the scipture false saying "Jesus is the perfect lamb cause he experienced all of humanity."
I do not know why this is so difficult to understand for then Jesus would have to actually have commited sin to experience all of human kind..... I think not, He took all of the sin of man upon him at the cross but that was as close to sin as He came.
Jesus did not came to experience humanity but he came as the Son of the Holy God in the form of a human so that we could "see" God and learn what God wants us to be like.

Alliance
Originally posted by sonnet
And the Bible also says that God saw Jesus on the cross, slain like a lamb, long before man was created. So the Lamb image of Jesus was there long before any other beliefs.

Apparently you are unaware that Christianity is one of the last religons to develop and Christians used pagan symbols that were in use for thousands of years prior.

sonnet
Originally posted by Alliance
Apparently you are unaware that Christianity is one of the last religons to develop and Christians used pagan symbols that were in use for thousands of years prior.
Actually I am aware of all the BS that is said and written about Christianity, Jesus and God and I thank God that my spirit knows the truth and because of that I will one day be with my God.

debbiejo
Me too...........We all will.......We all go back to where we came from.

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Alliance
Then why are you going?

Because I have accepted the sacrifice made by Jesus for me. See, we are accountable for our actions. We all fall short of God's standard. Christ is my Redeemer and by my faith in Him I am made right before God.

For we are saved by faith in Jesus, not by our good deeds...

Alliance
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
For we are saved by faith in Jesus, not by our good deeds...

OH WOW! sad

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Alliance
OH WOW! sad

Isn't this great! So relax, we don't have to try to work our way to heaven. Jesus did it for us, if we only except His sacrifice he made for us. Pretty simple huh?

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Because I have accepted the sacrifice made by Jesus for me. See, we are accountable for our actions. We all fall short of God's standard. Christ is my Redeemer and by my faith in Him I am made right before God.

For we are saved by faith in Jesus, not by our good deeds...

This one seems to describe you Justbyfaith, the rest are just more evidence for the denial of the belief in faith alone without works. You may be saved, but you are not justified. Your faith is dead.

James 2:17-26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Psalms 33
13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

Psalms 62:12
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Proverbs 24:12
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate
(Thus we see that the proclamation of faith is not enough)

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Revelation 2:23
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Alliance
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Isn't this great! So relax, we don't have to try to work our way to heaven. Jesus did it for us, if we only except His sacrifice he made for us. Pretty simple huh?

So why don't you just kill people like me?

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Regret
This one seems to describe you Justbyfaith, the rest are just more evidence for the denial of the belief in faith alone without works. You may be saved, but you are not justified. Your faith is dead.

James 2:17-26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Psalms 33
13 The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

Psalms 62:12
12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Proverbs 24:12
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Matthew 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate
(Thus we see that the proclamation of faith is not enough)

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Revelation 2:23
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Faith or works or both? Old Topic, never agreement. rolling on floor laughing

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Alliance
So why don't you just kill people like me?

You are currently my favorite non-believer. smile

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Faith or works or both? Old Topic, never agreement. rolling on floor laughing

This says that faith without works is dead. Both are required. These verses are from your Bible, it is the same as mine. Does it lie? The verses are explicit on this subject.

Alliance
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
You are currently my favorite non-believer. smile

I'm honored, but an answer would be appreciated.

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Faith or works or both? Old Topic, never agreement. rolling on floor laughing

Technically you are saved by faith. But, these verses say that your faith is worthless without the works. Faith without works is dead faith, dead faith is not the faith described in the Bible.

Alliance
your Jesus did good works

debbiejo
not according to scripture........you are known by your deeds.....said by heretic Paul...

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by debbiejo
not according to scripture........

Better open up the Word Of God and check again on that...

"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 big grin

Alliance
I seem to remember a heavy emphasis in the new testement on service and good deeds. Isn't that the point if trying to walk in Jesus's footsteps? He was all about service and deeds.

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Better open up the Word Of God and check again on that...

"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 big grin

"wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)

This verse does not make a statement that works are unnecessary for salvation. It states that no matter how good you are, no matter how many good things you do, if you are saved it was by God. It does not state that faith without works is in any way an acceptable state. It does not contradict James 2. In fact the semicolon is a break between two independent clauses. They are related by the phrases "not of yourselves" and "lest anyone should boast." It is a sentence that is warning against pride, not against works.

Works do not save you. Never did I say it was a gift of the works, it is a gift of God. God's gift is that we may, by grace, be saved through faith, which without works is dead, being empty. We cannot, by ourselves, without God accomplish our salvation, no matter the "works" we do. But, God is justified in saving us by our Faith, which without works is dead, being empty.



James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Regret
"it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

This verse does not make a statement that works are unnecessary for salvation. It states that no matter how good you are, no matter how many good things you do, if you are saved it was by God. It does not state that faith without works is in any way an acceptable state. It does not contradict James 2. In fact the semicolon is a break between two independent clauses. They are related by the phrases "not of yourselves" and "lest anyone should boast." It is a sentence that is warning against pride, not against works.

Works do not save you. Never did I say it was a gift of the works, it is a gift of God. God's gift is that we may, by grace, be saved through faith, which without works is dead, being empty. We cannot, by ourselves, without God accomplish our salvation, no matter the "works" we do. But, God is justified in saving us by our Faith, which without works is dead, being empty.



James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-26

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I don't have any problem with what you just said Regret. smile The best part was the scriptures you quoted! YES! YES!! This is good!!

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
I don't have any problem with what you just said Regret. smile

Then we agree if your faith does not have works behind it, that it is dead?

So works are necessary for faith to have any value?

That is what I said.

Alliance
Hooray for interpretational differences!

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Regret
Then we agree if your faith does not have works behind it, that it is dead?

So works are necessary for faith to have any value?

That is what I said.

Yes, we ALL (Even Believers) will stand before God and give account of ourselves. That's what the Bible says. big grin

peejayd
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Better open up the Word Of God and check again on that...

"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 big grin

* yeah, you better open up your Bible really wide... just read the next verse...

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works , which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ."
Ephesians 2:10

* oh, you didn't read that part? i'm not surprised... wink

"That the man of God may be perfect, fully equipped unto all good works ."
II Timothy 3:17

* and this?

"As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men , especially unto them who are of the household of faith."
Galatians 6:10

* and this?

* oh, man... roll eyes (sarcastic)

debbiejo
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Better open up the Word Of God and check again on that...

"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9 big grin Faith without WORKS IS DEAD!

Alliance
I'm totally with peejayd on this one. Its all about works.

debbiejo
Well according to many scriptures WORKS are just the fruits of the spirit.......you know them by their fruits......

Alliance
so then people who don't do works are spiritless!

does that translate to souless?

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by peejayd
* yeah, you better open up your Bible really wide... just read the next verse...

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works , which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them ."
Ephesians 2:10

* oh, you didn't read that part? i'm not surprised... wink

"That the man of God may be perfect, fully equipped unto all good works ."
II Timothy 3:17

* and this?

"As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men , especially unto them who are of the household of faith."
Galatians 6:10

* and this?

* oh, man... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ok, where are you going with this?

peejayd
* if you value salvation that much, the Bible states people needs good works / deeds, not just faith alone... wink

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by peejayd
* if you value salvation that much, the Bible states people needs good works / deeds, not just faith alone... wink

Well, I will let God judge my works...but as far as salvation... that happened right when I was born again by accepting Jesus as the Lord and Savior of my life! big grin I will let Him continue to be the Author and Finisher of my faith. Happy Dance He is the one who will finish what He has started to do in me.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
so then people who don't do works are spiritless!

does that translate to souless? I suppose many would see it as that why since one would be condemned to that pretend place...

So which is it? Is one saved by faith or by works, and then what are works????...........

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by debbiejo
I suppose many would see it as that why since one would be condemned to that pretend place...

So which is it? Is one saved by faith or by works, and then what are works????...........

Depends which cult you want to join.

debbiejo
How about yours???.......You answer the question.

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by debbiejo
How about yours???.......You answer the question.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES...

Ephesians 2:8

debbiejo
Faith without works is dead

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

JesusIsAlive
debbiejoe,

The word works in this context is not talking about actions performed in order to be saved. It is just talking about corresponding actions. For example, if a person says that they have turned over a new leaf then there should be some corresponding actions that evince this declaration. If this person is a smoker and they say that they quit smoking then you shouldn't seem them out and about smoking cigarettes. Smoking cigarettes would contradict their statement that they quit smoking. Simarly, if a person says that they are born again then they should have some corresponding actions that substantiate it not cause it. Our good deeds don't cause, effect, or bring about our salvation because by grace are we saved through faith. Our actions simply should mirror what we say. Otherwise we would be a hypocrite. This is what is meant by faith without works is dead. Can you see this debbiejo?

peejayd
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Well, I will let God judge my works...but as far as salvation... that happened right when I was born again by accepting Jesus as the Lord and Savior of my life! big grin I will let Him continue to be the Author and Finisher of my faith. Happy Dance He is the one who will finish what He has started to do in me.

* yes, i know... i only disagree in salvation without good works and only faith alone... because in salvation, faith and works are both needed... wink

debbiejo
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
debbiejoe,

The word works in this context is not talking about actions performed in order to be saved. It is just talking about corresponding actions. For example, if a person says that they have turned over a new leaf then there should be some corresponding actions that evince this declaration. If this person is a smoker and they say that they quit smoking then you shouldn't seem them out and about smoking cigarettes. Smoking cigarettes would contradict their statement that they quit smoking. Simarly, if a person says that they are born again then they should have some corresponding actions that substantiate it not cause it. Our good deeds don't cause, effect, or bring about our salvation because by grace are we saved through faith. Our actions simply should mirror what we say. Otherwise we would be a hypocrite. This is what is meant by faith without works is dead. Can you see this debbiejo? It depends on your denominational view.

Regret
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
debbiejoe,

The word works in this context is not talking about actions performed in order to be saved. It is just talking about corresponding actions. For example, if a person says that they have turned over a new leaf then there should be some corresponding actions that evince this declaration. If this person is a smoker and they say that they quit smoking then you shouldn't seem them out and about smoking cigarettes. Smoking cigarettes would contradict their statement that they quit smoking. Simarly, if a person says that they are born again then they should have some corresponding actions that substantiate it not cause it. Our good deeds don't cause, effect, or bring about our salvation because by grace are we saved through faith. Our actions simply should mirror what we say. Otherwise we would be a hypocrite. This is what is meant by faith without works is dead. Can you see this debbiejo?

While I hate doing this, because your posts, the ones I have read, are rude and show no respect for other people's beliefs, I will agree with this post.

debbiejo
Soooooo what are works? They are the fruits of the spirit right. That is how you KNOW THEM, by their fruits. So, if Tom Blow, an Atheist has all the fruits and Joe Shmoe, a Christian has few or none, which would be more important in your gods eyes???

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