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Yoda and mace are pretty tough, but Hord was rumoured to be THE greatest duelist amongst ancient Sith.

I say Hord takes it.

This would be like Sting and Macho Man versus Hercules; how the hell can we accurately guess?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
This would be like Sting and Macho Man versus Hercules; how the hell can we accurately guess?

ROFL

That analogy is so true.

BTW who is that guy in your sig?

That is House. M.D. I kinda thought the text was revealing on that.

Sting and the Macho Man would not get along, what a terrible analogy.

Fine.

Hogan and Sting.

Doesn't work either. Hogan was NWO Black and White, Sting was NWO Wolfpack.

Originally posted by tdtd
Doesn't work either. Hogan was NWO Black and White, Sting was NWO Wolfpack.

That was ten years ago.

Fine. Eddie and Chavo.

Dude, don't bring up Eddie you bastard.. I'm still getting over that...And one half of Latino heat can't contend with an ancient sith.

Well damn... I can't think of any tag teams still around anymore. I don't exactly keep up.

That's your loss. I'd give it to the Bushwackers. Oh, and Eddie died 3 months ago, it was actually really sad.

tulak

We have little to no info on tulak, although yoda was considered the greatest jedi swordmaster, and mace's vaapad would also help greatly.

Yoda speedblitzes on his own.

those who say tulak would win, please give actual feats

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
those who say tulak would win, please give actual feats

This topic is from like 6years ago, buddy.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
This topic is from like 6years ago, buddy.
Wow, i never knew i was that oblivious lol.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Wow, i never knew i was that oblivious lol.

No need to worry about it.

Mace would rape him ANGRY BLACKMAN STYLE. Lmaoooooooo....

Together this should be a hard-fought victory for the team. Not that Yoda couldn't beat Hord on his own, but then again Anakin can beat Ventress on his own--Yet she still gives the Ani/Obi duo trouble when they duel.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Together this should be a hard-fought victory for the team. Not that Yoda couldn't beat Hord on his own, but then again Anakin can beat Ventress on his own--Yet she still gives the Ani/Obi duo trouble when they duel.

Yoda or Windu alone can defeat "Tulak Hord". There is nothing suggesting that he's on their level.

Other than pulling a 300 meter long battleship from the sky, defeating entire armies and having legendary lightsaber skills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Other than pulling a 300 meter long battleship from the sky,

Has this ever confirmed or witnessed?

And pulling a battleship from the sky is a pretty questionable feat when you think about it. If it was "stationary", he wouldn't even have had to do much of anything to pull it down. If it was in orbit, he'd only need to nudge it slightly to pull it down to the surface, and we have no idea how long it took him, do we now?

It seems more like a "redirect falling ship" Galen Marek style feat. Certainly impressive, but not to the point where he'd lift all of the muntuur stones.




OK...where? When?



So did Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar.

Really, there's not much to quantify Tulak Hord with, except that he was considered very powerful for his age, and that he's weaker than Palpatine. Even many basic details of his life are apocryphal, with there being controversy over when he lived and whether or not modern lightsabers even existed in his time.

Of course, I got most of this knowledge from wookieepedia, so feel free to correct me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Other than pulling a 300 meter long battleship from the sky, defeating entire armies and having legendary lightsaber skills.

Sources for the first two and proof that his skills are sufficient to threaten Yoda and Mace?

Originally posted by Master Han
Has this ever confirmed or witnessed?

And pulling a battleship from the sky is a pretty questionable feat when you think about it. If it was "stationary", he wouldn't even have had to do much of anything to pull it down. If it was in orbit, he'd only need to nudge it slightly to pull it down to the surface, and we have no idea how long it took him, do we now?

It seems more like a "redirect falling ship" Galen Marek style feat. Certainly impressive, but not to the point where he'd lift all of the muntuur stones.

Khem Val, Tulak Hords loyal Dashade servant claims 'The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky' upon seeing the wrecked Endar Spire. That he never left his masters side indicates he witnessed it, and that he says he pulled it from the sky indicates he didn't just redirect it.


Originally posted by Master Han
OK...where? When?

Again, Khem Val talks about it. His Yn and Chabosh campaigns apparantly.

3HKSaOj7w2Y

2.10

Originally posted by Master Han
So did Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar.

Really, there's not much to quantify Tulak Hord with, except that he was considered very powerful for his age, and that he's weaker than Palpatine. Even many basic details of his life are apocryphal, with there being controversy over when he lived and whether or not modern lightsabers even existed in his time.

Of course, I got most of this knowledge from wookieepedia, so feel free to correct me.

And they are good lightsaber duelists. According to Kreia though, Hord was the greatest lightsaber master of the Sith Empire.

Considering Tulak Hord devised many lightsaber techniques and teachings (which Darth Thanaton later found) and that Darth Marr recovered his lightsaber, I'm guessing he used a proper lightsaber.

Sounds extremely thin, Neph. Khem Val could be exaggerating, lying, or hallucinating.

And could we get the full quotes for the armies part?

Posted it above.

Doesn't sound like a hallucination to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Khem Val, Tulak Hords loyal Dashade servant claims 'The great Tulak Hord once pulled a ship this size from the sky' upon seeing the wrecked Endar Spire. That he never left his masters side indicates he witnessed it, and that he says he pulled it from the sky indicates he didn't just redirect it.


OK, that's fair enough, and I suppose we can assume that Val is being factual here.

But, again, we still can't understand the feat's circumstances. It could range from being nothing more than a trick (ie., the ship is already in free fall), to making him orders of magnitude more powerful than anyone we've seen in the canon.



But surely you understand how difficult it is to quantify destroying "entire armies" is...



So he's probably pretty badass with a blade. He's no joke, but neither are Yoda and Windu, the first and second greatest lightsaber duelists in the Order's golden age of lightsaber dueling, and possibly of the Order's entire history.

So, given that the first Sith Empire existed in the infancy of lightsaber dueling, whereas Yoda and Mace dominated in its prime...



That's a reasonable, although not absolute, conclusion. That being said, Windu himself developed one of the deadliest forms ever conceived of, vaapad, so when it comes to technical skills, it's difficult to put Hord above either of the two.

I could always resort to ABC logic and say Yoda = Palpatine > Hord.

I don't think he could actually beat them (either of them), I'm merely pointing out that there is evidence that he's near or on their level. Whether its compelling is your own agenda.

Also I edited Khem's story about Yn and Chabosh into my post.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Posted it above.

Doesn't sound like a hallucination to me.

You never know, bro. Drugs are crayyy.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that it could be simple exaggeration. Or perhaps he did so through technological means.

Theres no known tech that could do that and I don't see why Khem would exaggerate. He's standing right in front of the Endar Spire when he says it, he has a good basis for comparison. The simplest explanation is that he did it with the Force. As Han said, its safe to assume he's being accurate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no known tech that could do that and I don't see why Khem would exaggerate. He's standing right in front of the Endar Spire when he says it, he has a good basis for comparison. The simplest explanation is that he did it with the Force. As Han said, its safe to assume he's being accurate.

Well, you did say Khem was a Hord loyalist, yes? It makes sense that he would go to lengths to deify his ancient Master. And couldn't ion canons destabilize ships, in effect pulling them to the surface? Or gravity-well generators, or planetary tractor-beams? Or perhaps he worked in collusion with other Force users?

While he's allowed his opinion, I'm afraid Han's solo on this one.

Why are you so against believing this? Anyway, Khem is bound (by the force) in his loyalty to his current master (you), so its highly unlikely he even can lie or exaggerate things to you. I've never seen it happen.

Or maybe he used magical pixie tears. I'm fairly certain the Sith Empire didn't possess those technologies. As it is, the simplest explanation is that he did it with the Force. Occums Razor.

Don't you think that since the developers had him say it without anything contradicting it, they probably meant it to be true?

angel

mmm

Anyway, I am wondering why you don't want this to be true. Its not like Hords that big of a deal.

Also, I posted the evidence of the Children that you wanted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think he could actually beat them (either of them), I'm merely pointing out that there is evidence that he's near or on their level. Whether its compelling is your own agenda.

Also I edited Khem's story about Yn and Chabosh into my post.

Unless if I'm missing something from the tiny subtitles, Tulak Hord breaks a Jedi siege and then goes on a Jedi killing spree. At no point does he bust armies singlehandedly...we don't know how many he fought, how he did it, etc.

Similarly, his pull-a-ship-out-of-the-sky feat is so vague as to mean potentially any range of power. You could conclude that he was just slightly nudging it out of orbit or directing a ship already in free fall, putting the feat below Marek's, or you could conclude that he overpowered the ship's thrusters and repulsorlifts, and that he is therefore the most powerful Force user in the mythos.

A siege is something an army does. To be sieging an entire stronghold would naturally require one. He defeated the siege and by the sounds of it killed them all going by 'left nothing but jedi blood behind him'.

The term used is 'pulled out of the sky'. Slightly nudging it isn't pulling and if it was already falling he wouldn't be pulling it out of the sky. Also, that wouldn't make him the most powerful Force User in the mythos. Darth Nihilus would still be stronger.

Tulak Hord is a beast, defiantly seems to trump all the other ancient Sith. I hope we get to see more about him. Especially since it makes no sense that he is fighting armies of Jedi and seems unlikely that he was one of the Jedi Exiles.

I know right? Why the hell was he fighting Jedi? I thought the time of Naga Sadow was the first time the Jedi and Sith had met since the original Dark Jedi. mmm

And yet apparently Khem Val alone devoured a thousand Jedi....

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, that wouldn't make him the most powerful Force User in the mythos. Darth Nihilus would still be stronger.
The Ones, Abeloth, Zone Anakin, Luke, DE Sidious....

Originally posted by Nephthys
A siege is something an army does. To be sieging an entire stronghold would naturally require one. He defeated the siege and by the sounds of it killed them all going by 'left nothing but jedi blood behind him'.


A small group of Jedi with Force senses can siege a stronghold without an army, and there simply have never been enough Jedi to think that they all would assemble together in numbers above one thousand for a single confrontation, the dumbass and retarded idea "Army of Light" being the sole exception.

Anyhow, my point is that he does not necessarily take on, like 10000 soldiers at once and kick their asses TUF Luke style, which was my impression when you said that he defeated "armies" single handedly. It's, again, a very difficult to quantify feat.



Technically, it is. Roughly speaking, I see four possibilities here:

1. He directs the starship's fall, and we're taking "pull out of the sky" way too literally.
2. He nudges it out of orbit.
3. The ship is functional and hovering via repulsorlift or engines, so he disables its flight mechanisms and then directs its fall, in which case holy shit, he's ****ing powerful.
4. The ship is functional and hovering via repulsorlifts or engines, and he literally overpowers its flight mechanism through brute force and pulls it down to the surface, in which case holy shit, he one shots Yoda and Windu by flicking his wrist, assuming he does this under his own power without any sort of prep.



Well, wasn't he in the presence of a DS nexus? And his feat is just as ridiculously ambiguous and difficult to accept at face value.

Originally posted by Master Han
A small group of Jedi with Force senses can siege a stronghold without an army, and there simply have never been enough Jedi to think that they all would assemble together in numbers above one thousand for a single confrontation, the dumbass and retarded idea "Army of Light" being the sole exception.

Anyhow, my point is that he does not necessarily take on, like 10000 soldiers at once and kick their asses TUF Luke style, which was my impression when you said that he defeated "armies" single handedly. It's, again, a very difficult to quantify feat.

And yet Khem Val alone devoured over a thousand Jedi in that campaign. It was certainly an army. Even if it was as small as in the hundreds, which given the above it certainly wasn't, its still an incredible feat.

To siege something you have to be able to surround a stronghold and prevent it from being able to receive help or supplies. To do so you need large numbers of people.

Originally posted by Master Han
Technically, it is. Roughly speaking, I see four possibilities here:

1. He directs the starship's fall, and we're taking "pull out of the sky" way too literally.
2. He nudges it out of orbit.
3. The ship is functional and hovering via repulsorlift or engines, so he disables its flight mechanisms and then directs its fall, in which case holy shit, he's ****ing powerful.
4. The ship is functional and hovering via repulsorlifts or engines, and he literally overpowers its flight mechanism through brute force and pulls it down to the surface, in which case holy shit, he one shots Yoda and Windu by flicking his wrist, assuming he does this under his own power without any sort of prep.

No, he wouldn't be pulling it from the sky in any of the options except no 4. To pull by definition is to 'draw or tug at something with force.' If he was merely nudging it or disabling his engines, he wouldn't be pulling it out of the sky.

Originally posted by Master Han
Well, wasn't he in the presence of a DS nexus? And his feat is just as ridiculously ambiguous and difficult to accept at face value.

True, but this was before he's started devouring entire planets. Thats why I said he's more powerful, but him raising the Ravager is certainly up there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet Khem Val alone devoured over a thousand Jedi in that campaign.




OK...TOR really has outdone itself this time. Devouring 1000 Jedi? Isn't that, like a tenth of the Order at its height? In a single campaign?



Nudging its orbit or guiding its fall would both require the application of a force, so...it technically fits Val's description. It's not as if we're supposed to expect humility as a virtue from the dude.

Well actually it was 2 battles. But yeah, Tulak Hord truly is the most powerful Sith Lord who has ever lived ever.

Eh, if thats what you want to interpret it as. I disagree, but y'know. I guess there isn't enough to conclusively prove it either way.


Edit: Although recall that Darth Marr is also said to have 'routed whole armies.'

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well actually it was 2 battles. But yeah, Tulak Hord truly is the most powerful Sith Lord who has ever lived ever.


Wait...I assume you're joking, since you had earlier denied arguing that Hord could defeat either of these Jedi alone, and that Nihilus is stronger still...

awegimp

Btw, the codex also says that Hord was a master of sorcery who fed off the energy of his opponents, and in one entry confirms that he was a lightsaber master.

They really did make him quite horribly overpowered, lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
a master of sorcery

Plenty of sith are "masters" of sorcery. So were the Maul-replicating dark siders who Sidious turned to ash with a wave of his hand.



You mean fear? Because all dark siders do that.



Uh, "lightsaber master" describes, well...pretty much every random Jedi Master, lol.



I'm sorry, but your specific accolades really don't do much to overpower him.

I have to call bullshit to the sheer bullshit unrealism (is that a word) of this feat. Khem Val devoured 1,000 jedi, really? Did the writers just give up on their writing abilities or something?

At the same time, I thought it was common knowledge that from the time the jedi banished the dark jedi to the Great Hyperspace War, they didn't come in contact. The lone discrepancy happens to be in the comics when Dreypa and his minions decided to venture back to the republic a year later and landed on Kesh.

I know, its really confusing.

Originally posted by Master Han
Plenty of sith are "masters" of sorcery. So were the Maul-replicating dark siders who Sidious turned to ash with a wave of his hand.



You mean fear? Because all dark siders do that.



Uh, "lightsaber master" describes, well...pretty much every random Jedi Master, lol.



I'm sorry, but your specific accolades really don't do much to overpower him.

I'm merely pointing out yet another arrow in Hord's quiver. Plus considering he created rituals that allowed him everlasting life, the ability to drain power from death, created many artifacts powerful that their mere presence turns the weakminded insane and plumbed the depths of life and death with his sorcery, I'd say he was pretty good.

No, I mean that at Yn and Chabosh he drained the energy from his fallen victims, strengthening his own power and vitality.

Um, I know? Its just that theres always been scorn over Hords lightsaber abilities. Some people doubt that Kreia was being truthful when she fellated him for his lightsaber skills. I'm merely showing that he was indeed a lightsaber master. In fact, he created many lightsaber techniques of his own, indicting that he had superlative command of the saber.

The guy defeated armies of Jedi by himself and drained their power, ripped capital ships from the sky, was an unparallelled lightsaber master in his time and was a master sorcerer. That all seems pretty overpowered to me.

MWAHahahahahaha!!!!!


Okay, my copy of SWTORE just arrived. Allow me to correct my earlier number. Khem Val actually devored thousands, plural, of Jedi at Yn and Chabosh. And 'one of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hords side to conquer an army of Jedi 1,000 strong.' Which also indicates that the army Tulak Hord repelled at Yn was likely at least a thousand strong itself.

I enjoy Khem Val as a companion in TOR, but that is just ridiculous. Seriously, **** you, BioWare. What the hell?

Also apparently Vitiate was evil, even as a baby. duroll

That said, the TOR-era Sith Order is made up of millions, so its clear that theres just a different level of scale in the Kotor-era.

I knew that about Vitiate. He also killed a Sith Lord when he was 13 or something like that.

Yea the whole 1,000 jedi thing is where I finally gave up on star wars.

^ Drama much?

Yeah, he was 10. He broke his Sith Lord fathers mind after conquering an entire continent. He then traveled to Korriban where Ragnos recognized his incredible powah and made him the youngest Sith Lord ever.

Yoda or Mace can solo this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm merely pointing out yet another arrow in Hord's quiver. Plus considering he created rituals that allowed him everlasting life, the ability to drain power from death, created many artifacts powerful that their mere presence turns the weakminded insane and plumbed the depths of life and death with his sorcery, I'd say he was pretty good.

No, I mean that at Yn and Chabosh he drained the energy from his fallen victims, strengthening his own power and vitality.

Um, I know? Its just that theres always been scorn over Hords lightsaber abilities. Some people doubt that Kreia was being truthful when she fellated him for his lightsaber skills. I'm merely showing that he was indeed a lightsaber master. In fact, he created many lightsaber techniques of his own, indicting that he had superlative command of the saber.

The guy defeated armies of Jedi by himself and drained their power, ripped capital ships from the sky, was an unparallelled lightsaber master in his time and was a master sorcerer. That all seems pretty overpowered to me.

None of this, by your admission, puts him on Yoda or Palpatine's level, though. So unless if you think the Big Two are overpowered, why would you give Hord the label?

Originally posted by Nephthys
^ Drama much?

Yeah, he was 10. He broke his Sith Lord fathers mind after conquering an entire continent. He then traveled to Korriban where Ragnos recognized his incredible powah and made him the youngest Sith Lord ever.

...where does it say he was the youngest sith lord evar?

Originally posted by Master Han
None of this, by your admission, puts him on Yoda or Palpatine's level, though. So unless if you think the Big Two are overpowered, why would you give Hord the label?



...where does it say he was the youngest sith lord evar?

Ripping a capital ship out of the sky does, by your admission. So does solo'ing an army of 1000+ Jedi. I didn't know about that when I said he couldn't beat them. Now I'm not so sure.

It doesn't state that but its hard to imagine one being younger.

I doubt you have trouble imagining them younger, u no wum say'n? stoned

http://deathstarpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/emperor-palpatine-baby.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ripping a capital ship out of the sky does, by your admission. So does solo'ing an army of 1000+ Jedi. I didn't know about that when I said he couldn't beat them. Now I'm not so sure.


Wait, so is your opinion that Hord > Yoda, or not?

I think he's about on his level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think he's about on his level.

So...if Tulak Hord is overpowered, I guess Yoda is, as well?

Um, yes?

Mother****er smacked two transport ships into each other.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, yes?

Mother****er smacked two transport ships into each other.

In a questionably-canon animated series that the creators admit exaggerates Jedi capabilities. Otherwise, Mace Windu could have easily soloed the entire arena battle in AotC, given that he destroys entire droid armies with his fists in the cartoon.

So, ignoring the 2003 clone wars, would you argue that Yoda is overpowered?

Its still canon.

Yes, since he's still equal to 'Blitz-Master' Sidious.

Originally posted by Master Han
In a questionably-canon animated series that the creators admit exaggerates Jedi capabilities. Otherwise, Mace Windu could have easily soloed the entire arena battle in AotC, given that he destroys entire droid armies with his fists in the cartoon.

So, ignoring the 2003 clone wars, would you argue that Yoda is overpowered?

Questionably canon?

Its referenced in the ROTS's commentary.

It's canon with some exaggerated action sequences according to Dave Filoni.

But then from an EU point of view a lot of the EU could be said to be exaggerated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's canon with some exaggerated action sequences according to Dave Filoni.

Well...the action scenes are what matter here...

And it's hard to see it as canon in light of the recent TCW, when the two series are almost entirely irreconcilable.

I mean even in the non-exaggerated CWs series Yoda pretty casually owned an army of battledroids and tanks.

Originally posted by Master Han


And it's hard to see it as canon in light of the recent TCW, when the two series are almost entirely irreconcilable.


How are they irreconcilable? Not disagreeing, just curious.

More info, SWTORE claims that Hord has "legendary lightsaber skills" and that his lightsaber is augmented.

Originally posted by Master Han
In a questionably-canon animated series that the creators admit exaggerates Jedi capabilities. Otherwise, Mace Windu could have easily soloed the entire arena battle in AotC, given that he destroys entire droid armies with his fists in the cartoon.

So, ignoring the 2003 clone wars, would you argue that Yoda is overpowered?


Filoni was the one who called the animated series exaggerated. The creators of the mini series actually said that that is what jedi are capable of if they unleashed their full powers.

But even if the mini series are exaggerated compared to new TCW, I wouldn't consider Yoda's feats exaggerated. We have Maul and Savage hurling small starships, and yet Sidious easily overpowers them both simultaneously with the force, which suggests a very huge gap in power. So, Yoda being on par with Sidious force-wise, should be able to manipulate much larger ships than the ones Maul and Savage hurled.