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Who wins between Marvel's most loved self-loathers:
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7831/smddjoeq4dg.jpg

And Marvel's most conflicting ideologies:
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/2448/488ce.jpg

Spidey and DD strengths: These two have the edge in speed and acrobatics collectively- though not by much- and spiderman supplies the strength of the battle while DD supplies the gritty, bloody fighting style he calls his own. Their abilities should complement eachother nicely.

Spidey and DD weaknesses: DD is the weak link in terms of strength and durability, as he cannot take the damage or dish out as much as Spidey. Will Spidey's powers offset this?

Wolverine and Cap's strengths: Wolverine is the best there is at what he does, and he has the speed and strength to give Spiderman a run for his money. Cap has the shield and acrobatics enough to keep up with Daredevil.

Wolverine and Cap's weaknesses: Cap's leadership skills will not come in handy here, as Logan only listens to himself. They may be going for the same kill, but without proper teamwork, it might not be possible.

So, who wins? (Surely there will be at least one casualty, who is it and why?)

hard decision there

this is tough

Spidey can take Cap.
But I don't know if DD can take Wolverine

Surely it would be a good match

Any other thoughts?

Cap can take them both....

Ya okay...

Originally posted by Jade Lightning
Ya okay... i just think its funny people beleive me when i sazy that stuff...i know cap cant take em both...

this is hard.
wolverine does not seem to work well with other some times. He is a loner, but if u gain he respect he will fight beside u in a common goal.
He is a great leader no as good as capt is at leading, but he still a amazing leader and though capt and him clash heads a lot they have shown in the past to be quite a effective team.
this was shown in secret war the first one and also shown in in a flash back of wolrd war 2 were wolverine and captain america first met.

so they will more then likly make a effective tema them self.

1) Stop saying Cap can take out people all the time. It's annoying.

2) Wolverine may not like Cap, but as long as Cap doesn't try to tell him what to do they will get along fine. They took out Tessa 1 in Cap Annual 8 with very nice team work. In WW 2 they also worked pretty well together. The only time a problem will arise is if Cap tells Wolverine "Dont kill anyone." or treats him as anything less than an equal. Other than that these two will compliment each other better than Spidey and DD will.

3) Wolverine and Cap should win. Cap can take DD. Cap in my opinion should not be able to beat Spider-Man, but he can definitely hold his own against Peter for a good long while.

Wolverine on the other hand should kill DD and can match Spidey's speed when he has to.

DD will go down first and then Spider-Man will get overwealmed by 2 opponents.

Wow. Clearly there is some vast underestimation on Daredevil's part going on around here.

DD and Spidey 7/10.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wow. Clearly there is some vast underestimation on Daredevil's part going on around here.

DD and Spidey 7/10.

No, this is clear underestimation of Spidey.

You guys realize that there was a popular Spider-Man vs. Cap/DD/Wolverine (at the same time) thread, and while the majority went with the team, it was about 60/40.

Spidey's not street level...he can lift more than these three guys combined (by a lot), and is much faster than any of them. Knocks Wolverine down, webs him to the ground...webs in mouth = suffocation. Cap realizes he's overwhelmed and lasts about a minute.

That's it. Logan might last a while against them due to his healing. But DD/Spidey take this 9/10...I'd say 10, but if you get a PIS-happy writer, you never know.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, this is clear underestimation of Spidey.

You guys realize that there was a popular Spider-Man vs. Cap/DD/Wolverine (at the same time) thread, and while the majority went with the team, it was about 60/40.

Spidey's not street level...he can lift more than these three guys combined (by a lot), and is much faster than any of them. Knocks Wolverine down, webs him to the ground...webs in mouth = suffocation. Cap realizes he's overwhelmed and lasts about a minute.

That's it. Logan might last a while against them due to his healing. But DD/Spidey take this 9/10...I'd say 10, but if you get a PIS-happy writer, you never know.

Where the hell have you been the entire Spider-man vs. Wolverine thread?

Originally posted by batdude123
Where the hell have you been the entire Spider-man vs. Wolverine thread?

Shaking my head in shame that people actually think it should be a good fight. That's where.

Haha, nice post.

I would say that Wolverine and Spiderman are the two power players here, though all four combatants are well-versed in combat and control. Though Daredevil is the weakest of the four, he has shown time and again that he can triumph over greater foes, and he is one tough warrior. In a one on one fight I would say Wolverine would beat Daredevil and Captain America would too, but only narrowly, so if you add in Spiderman, who in my opinion could beat Wolverine and Captain America one on one, and it's like having Spidey vs. them two, but with a handicap in his favor; the handicap being a hardened street brawler with billy clubs to match.

Even if DD bit the dust, it is sure that he would do some major damage before going down, and Spiderman would not be overwhelmed by two already weakened opponents, taking Cap out with reletive ease if he was wounded by DD, and then having a decisive victory over Wolverine.

Spiderman and Daredevil win 70%

Originally posted by Jade Lightning
Haha, nice post.

I would say that Wolverine and Spiderman are the two power players here, though all four combatants are well-versed in combat and control. Though Daredevil is the weakest of the four, he has shown time and again that he can triumph over greater foes, and he is one tough warrior. In a one on one fight I would say Wolverine would beat Daredevil and Captain America would too, but only narrowly, so if you add in Spiderman, who in my opinion could beat Wolverine and Captain America one on one, and it's like having Spidey vs. them two, but with a handicap in his favor; the handicap being a hardened street brawler with billy clubs to match.

Even if DD bit the dust, it is sure that he would do some major damage before going down, and Spiderman would not be overwhelmed by two already weakened opponents, taking Cap out with reletive ease if he was wounded by DD, and then having a decisive victory over Wolverine.

Spiderman and Daredevil win 70%

I don't agree at all. evena damage capt and normal wolverine would take spiderman almost every time. also DD not likly to damage capt that much.
also in my oppion in a one on one fight wolverine would take spiderman.

I think its safe to say that all four have beaten each other at one point or another, but in this case I think that Spider-man and Daredevil will come out on top. Not by much though. I just think that they can cooperate better. Have the edge in reaction time, speed, and agility. As well as both having long range attacks. Well that and Spidey has the obvious strength advantage.

Originally posted by capt it up
He is a great leader

Wolverine is a great leader?!?

I know he was supposed to lead Alpha Flight and all, but seriously, it just goes to show how bad Canada is at making Superhero teams

Originally posted by riceroost
1) Stop saying Cap can take out people all the time. It's annoying.


But, the fact of the matter is that he can.

Its just that he has been overshadowed by guys like Batman and Wolverine for all these years (aka the 90's) so people dont agknowledge him as much

Cap and Wolverine take it. Hardly.

6/10

Originally posted by Grimm22
Wolverine is a great leader?!?

I know he was supposed to lead Alpha Flight and all, but seriously, it just goes to show how bad Canada is at making Superhero teams
again u show that u know absolutly nuthing about wolverine

Originally posted by capt it up
again u show that u know absolutly nuthing about wolverine

Or maybe its just you overrating him

Originally posted by Grimm22
Or maybe its just you overrating him
nope it not that at all. wolverine has repeatedly been asked to elad teams over the years. scot has ask wolverine many times over the years to lead one of the teams.
also wolverien over the years had lead special ops team, army squadrens ect.

he has many years of experience doing so.
he has also lead the x-men in which he gave up the power becuase he did not wish to elad any more.

it is not that wolverin eis not a amazing leader it is that he chioces not to lead.
also alpha flight wanted wolverine to come back and lead there team becuase of his leader ship skills.

Originally posted by capt it up
nope it not that at all. wolverine has repeatedly been asked to elad teams over the years. scot has ask wolverine many times over the years to lead one of the teams.
also wolverien over the years had lead special ops team, army squadrens ect.

he has many years of experience doing so.
he has also lead the x-men in which he gave up the power becuase he did not wish to elad any more.

it is not that wolverin eis not a amazing leader it is that he chioces not to lead.
also alpha flight wanted wolverine to come back and lead there team becuase of his leader ship skills. wolverine is a good second class leader, but nobody leads the cap....and cap KO's spidey and DD with one punch each.

Leadership skills don't stop a punch in the face. Army training and ninja skills are flacid in the face of super-human agility. A few good shots from Spidey and Cap should be out. Wolverine would last longer, but the end result would be the same.

Depending on the writer, and whose comic it is, all of these guys have held their own and/or beaten the others at some point. Spider-Man, while easily the best in this fight, is not exempt from this rule and has taken his share of losses from all sorts of opponents (occasionally street level-ish). But we're looking at what should happen in a no-PIS environment. And in that environment, Spidey/DD win every time.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Leadership skills don't stop a punch in the face. Army training and ninja skills are flacid in the face of super-human agility. A few good shots from Spidey and Cap should be out. Wolverine would last longer, but the end result would be the same.

Depending on the writer, and whose comic it is, all of these guys have held their own and/or beaten the others at some point. Spider-Man, while easily the best in this fight, is not exempt from this rule and has taken his share of losses from all sorts of opponents (occasionally street level-ish). But we're looking at what should happen in a no-PIS environment. And in that environment, Spidey/DD win every time.
not true at all sicne wolverine is also listed as superhuman agility and reflexes. in a non PIS enviorment in my oppion logan would take it more tiems then spiderman.
spiderman can take down wolverine but it would tkae many many hits while wolvdrind only needs realy on hit to win.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Leadership skills don't stop a punch in the face. Army training and ninja skills are flacid in the face of super-human agility. A few good shots from Spidey and Cap should be out. Wolverine would last longer, but the end result would be the same.

Depending on the writer, and whose comic it is, all of these guys have held their own and/or beaten the others at some point. Spider-Man, while easily the best in this fight, is not exempt from this rule and has taken his share of losses from all sorts of opponents (occasionally street level-ish). But we're looking at what should happen in a no-PIS environment. And in that environment, Spidey/DD win every time. dude....cap tangles with class100 guys just like wolverine, and ummm, cap isnt as easy to hit as your trying to make it seem.

Originally posted by capt it up
not true at all sicne wolverine is also listed as superhuman agility and reflexes. in a non PIS enviorment in my oppion logan would take it more tiems then spiderman.
spiderman can take down wolverine but it would tkae many many hits while wolvdrind only needs realy on hit to win.

I'm not talking about "listed" abilities though. I'm talking about how fast they are in the comics....for real. And anyone can see that Spidey doesn't really get hit unless he wants to, or if there's some extenuating circumstance (i.e. "Had to save that girl...couldn't dodge the blow in time" or "Oh no, he's attacking while I'm in mid-air and my spider-sense just warned me he was there...can't twist out of the way in time". Or if they have some sort of spread fire (Logan doesn't).

I'd use Secret Wars as a wonderful example on neutral turf (meaning, it's not either of their "home" comics). He's making fun of Logan's attempts to hit him while he swats him away like a fly and simultaneously dodges about 5 other X-Men.

Yeah...that's the Spidey I'm talking about. And a class 15 punch will mess Logan up. Yeah, he heals. But not instantaneously, and a few of those and he'd be pretty messed up. And I feel very safe saying Peter would get at least a few dozen hits in before Logan ever grazed Parker's skin.

Let's not mention webbing-from-a-distance. He can cut through some of it with his claws, but after a while it would just be caked on his body, thus slowing him down. Eventually, after a few punches and lots of webs, he could web Logan's arms and legs to a wall (or the ground) and suffocate him by webbing his mouth shut. And this could all be done without ever coming within 10 feet of him.

....

I realize you're a big Wolverine fan capt, and I don't think you're unreasonable in defending him. To the contrary, a lot of times you know your stuff and people just write it off as fanboy-ism. I know it isn't that, but Logan's simply outclassed here.

I also respect Cap and Wolverine, and think they're sweet for a number of reasons. And Cap's fighting skills and shield make him a hard guy to take out by anyone. But that will just make it a decent fight...it won't really change the outcome.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not talking about "listed" abilities though. I'm talking about how fast they are in the comics....for real. And anyone can see that Spidey doesn't really get hit unless he wants to, or if there's some extenuating circumstance (i.e. "Had to save that girl...couldn't dodge the blow in time" or "Oh no, he's attacking while I'm in mid-air and my spider-sense just warned me he was there...can't twist out of the way in time". Or if they have some sort of spread fire (Logan doesn't).

I'd use Secret Wars as a wonderful example on neutral turf (meaning, it's not either of their "home" comics). He's making fun of Logan's attempts to hit him while he swats him away like a fly and simultaneously dodges about 5 other X-Men.

Yeah...that's the Spidey I'm talking about. And a class 15 punch will mess Logan up. Yeah, he heals. But not instantaneously, and a few of those and he'd be pretty messed up. And I feel very safe saying Peter would get at least a few dozen hits in before Logan ever grazed Parker's skin.

Let's not mention webbing-from-a-distance. He can cut through some of it with his claws, but after a while it would just be caked on his body, thus slowing him down. Eventually, after a few punches and lots of webs, he could web Logan's arms and legs to a wall (or the ground) and suffocate him by webbing his mouth shut. And this could all be done without ever coming within 10 feet of him.

....

I realize you're a big Wolverine fan capt, and I don't think you're unreasonable in defending him. To the contrary, a lot of times you know your stuff and people just write it off as fanboy-ism. I know it isn't that, but Logan's simply outclassed here.

I also respect Cap and Wolverine, and think they're sweet for a number of reasons. And Cap's fighting skills and shield make him a hard guy to take out by anyone. But that will just make it a decent fight...it won't really change the outcome.

What he said ^ ........Spidey and DD win, but it would be one hell of a fight!!!!!!!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
No, this is clear underestimation of Spidey.

You guys realize that there was a popular Spider-Man vs. Cap/DD/Wolverine (at the same time) thread, and while the majority went with the team, it was about 60/40.

Spidey's not street level...he can lift more than these three guys combined (by a lot), and is much faster than any of them. Knocks Wolverine down, webs him to the ground...webs in mouth = suffocation. Cap realizes he's overwhelmed and lasts about a minute.

That's it. Logan might last a while against them due to his healing. But DD/Spidey take this 9/10...I'd say 10, but if you get a PIS-happy writer, you never know.

To tell you the honest truth, Digi, I agree 100% with you. But sometimes I feel the need to answer in a way that won't make Wolverine fanboys foam at the mouth. But yea, Spidey alone really can take this.

Ah, I remember that Spider-Man vs. Cap/DD/Wolverine thread well. Good times.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not talking about "listed" abilities though. I'm talking about how fast they are in the comics....for real. And anyone can see that Spidey doesn't really get hit unless he wants to, or if there's some extenuating circumstance (i.e. "Had to save that girl...couldn't dodge the blow in time" or "Oh no, he's attacking while I'm in mid-air and my spider-sense just warned me he was there...can't twist out of the way in time". Or if they have some sort of spread fire (Logan doesn't).

I'd use Secret Wars as a wonderful example on neutral turf (meaning, it's not either of their "home" comics). He's making fun of Logan's attempts to hit him while he swats him away like a fly and simultaneously dodges about 5 other X-Men.

Yeah...that's the Spidey I'm talking about. And a class 15 punch will mess Logan up. Yeah, he heals. But not instantaneously, and a few of those and he'd be pretty messed up. And I feel very safe saying Peter would get at least a few dozen hits in before Logan ever grazed Parker's skin.

Let's not mention webbing-from-a-distance. He can cut through some of it with his claws, but after a while it would just be caked on his body, thus slowing him down. Eventually, after a few punches and lots of webs, he could web Logan's arms and legs to a wall (or the ground) and suffocate him by webbing his mouth shut. And this could all be done without ever coming within 10 feet of him.

....

I realize you're a big Wolverine fan capt, and I don't think you're unreasonable in defending him. To the contrary, a lot of times you know your stuff and people just write it off as fanboy-ism. I know it isn't that, but Logan's simply outclassed here.

I also respect Cap and Wolverine, and think they're sweet for a number of reasons. And Cap's fighting skills and shield make him a hard guy to take out by anyone. But that will just make it a decent fight...it won't really change the outcome.

Great post, by the way.

Spidey & DD.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not talking about "listed" abilities though. I'm talking about how fast they are in the comics....for real. And anyone can see that Spidey doesn't really get hit unless he wants to, or if there's some extenuating circumstance (i.e. "Had to save that girl...couldn't dodge the blow in time" or "Oh no, he's attacking while I'm in mid-air and my spider-sense just warned me he was there...can't twist out of the way in time". Or if they have some sort of spread fire (Logan doesn't).
like when captain america wholloped him?
if he's twisting in the air and can't overcompensate while he's fighting or gets tricked by his opponent into getting hit he's still getting hit..
there's no point in trying to pass that off as otherwise... I'm not saying that the excuses you mentioned don't happen a lot but you're making it sound like spiderman is untouchable unless something else prohibits his movement or something.. that's clearly not the case.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'd use Secret Wars as a wonderful example on neutral turf (meaning, it's not either of their "home" comics). He's making fun of Logan's attempts to hit him while he swats him away like a fly and simultaneously dodges about 5 other X-Men. Neutral?
I won't neglect that it happened but there was more pro spidey PIS in there than in ANY of their fights since then.. me and creshosck have gone over these points many times but I can hit them up again if you missed out...

the funny thing is the times the have gotten into it since with the execption of that punisher nonsense all took place in spiderman titles or by spiderman writers at the time.. interesting is it not?


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah...that's the Spidey I'm talking about. And a class 15 punch will mess Logan up.
no it won't.. hell class 100 punches aren't guaranteed to "mess logan up"... yet that's going to change for spiderman? I don't think so...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah, he heals. But not instantaneously, close enough.. remember how his jellied organs healed before hulk's next punch? guess not..
oh well
also good thing spiderman doesn't land punches instantaniously either..

Originally posted by DigiMark007
and a few of those and he'd be pretty messed up. And I feel very safe saying Peter would get at least a few dozen hits in before Logan ever grazed Parker's skin.
I wouldn't, considering the fact that the only time parkers been able to consistantly avoid logan striking back at him was in a fight where logan LET spiderman hit him... the fact is spiderman isn't going to be getting any number of punches in on logan without getting diced... to land a dozen unanswered blows he'd have to do what he did in their graveyard fight and use hit and run tactics. otherwise he gets scewered real quick...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Let's not mention webbing-from-a-distance. He can cut through some of it with his claws, but after a while it would just be caked on his body, thus slowing him down.

after a while? and what's happening in this scenario? is wolverine just letting spiderman cake the webbing on while he stands there helpless?

I seem to recall wolverine putting pressure on spiderman every time the guy tries to use webbing in a fight.. sure wolverine may not be able to cut through webbing indefinitely but spiderman doesn't have an indefinite amount of time to web him either..

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Eventually, after a few punches and lots of webs, he could web Logan's arms and legs to a wall (or the ground) and suffocate him by webbing his mouth shut. And this could all be done without ever coming within 10 feet of him.

he can punch him without being within 10 feet of logan?

wow spiderman must have got some CARAZAY upgrades with that new iron spidey suit..

Originally posted by jinzin
like when captain america wholloped him?
if he's twisting in the air and can't overcompensate while he's fighting or gets tricked by his opponent into getting hit he's still getting hit..
there's no point in trying to pass that off as otherwise... I'm not saying that the excuses you mentioned don't happen a lot but you're making it sound like spiderman is untouchable unless something else prohibits his movement or something.. that's clearly not the case.

Neutral?
I won't neglect that it happened but there was more pro spidey PIS in there than in ANY of their fights since then.. me and creshosck have gone over these points many times but I can hit them up again if you missed out...

the funny thing is the times the have gotten into it since with the execption of that punisher nonsense all took place in spiderman titles or by spiderman writers at the time.. interesting is it not?



no it won't.. hell class 100 punches aren't guaranteed to "mess logan up"... yet that's going to change for spiderman? I don't think so...

close enough.. remember how his jellied organs healed before hulk's next punch? guess not..
oh well
also good thing spiderman doesn't land punches instantaniously either..


I wouln't, considering the fact that the only time parkers been able to consistantly avoid logan striking back at him was in a fight where logan LET spiderman hit him... the fact is spiderman isn't going to be getting any number of punches in on logan without getting diced... to land a dozen unanswered blows he'd have to do what he did in their graveyard fight and use hit and run tactics. otherwise he gets scewered real quick...



after a while? and what's happening in this scenario? is wolverine just letting spiderman cake the webbing on while he stands there helpless?

I seem to recall wolverine putting pressure on spiderman every time the guy tries to use webbing in a fight.. sure wolverine may not be able to cut through webbing indefinitely but spiderman doesn't have an indefinite amount of time to web him either..



he can punch him without being within 10 feet of logan?

wow spiderman must have got some CARAZAY upgrades with that new iron spidey suit.. nice....now tell them how cap is gonna whoop em good too!

i said it before I'll say it again...
captain america will KICK YOUR ****ING ASS!

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Nice post up there jin. It was easier when I was just debating capt and Kam.

Anyway, the whole 10-feet thing was just for the webbing, not the punches. But it'll make Logan easier to punch. The entire webbing tactic is Spidey's biggest trump card, and if he just did that for a while, it would make Logan too slow to do much. And no, he doesn't have unlimited webbing, but he has enough to mess up Wolverine. He's webbed up an entire side of a skyscraper, encased the Blob (yes the Blob) in a ball of webbing....both easily beyond a feat of webbing up Logan.

And speaking of that fight, Parker could have easily let Blob suffocate (and he mentions it) but sticks a rolled-up newspaper in his mouth so he can breath through it. If we're talking max potential and bloodlust and whatnot, a similar tactic is not out of the question for Logan.

And apparently we have different opinions of Spidey's abilities. I've seen so many instances of him dodging way more stuff than Logan would present in a fight that I'm convinced if you stuck Peter in a fight and said "Don't get hit" he wouldn't unless the opponent was beyond Logan's speed.

I realize this is death to bring up, but the end of the Firelord fight is a great example. The fight was filled with PIS, and I'm not arguing for Spidey being that great, but the end when they're just locked in hand-to-hand and FL can't touch him is one of the few parts that doesn't contain massive PIS.

So yeah, dozens of hits. For a guy that laughs at multiple machine gun fire and all sorts of energy projection (Electro comes to mind as a good example) this isn't out of the question.

Originally posted by capt it up
nope it not that at all. wolverine has repeatedly been asked to elad teams over the years. scot has ask wolverine many times over the years to lead one of the teams.
also wolverien over the years had lead special ops team, army squadrens ect.

he has many years of experience doing so.
he has also lead the x-men in which he gave up the power becuase he did not wish to elad any more.

it is not that wolverin eis not a amazing leader it is that he chioces not to lead.
also alpha flight wanted wolverine to come back and lead there team becuase of his leader ship skills.

The only thing is that Wolverine's main priority is attack first ask questions later.

I mean I just cant see him as a leader with that kind of tactic. That and the fact that he prefers to work alone.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nice post up there jin. It was easier when I was just debating capt and Kam.

Anyway, the whole 10-feet thing was just for the webbing, not the punches. But it'll make Logan easier to punch. The entire webbing tactic is Spidey's biggest trump card, and if he just did that for a while, it would make Logan too slow to do much. And no, he doesn't have unlimited webbing, but he has enough to mess up Wolverine. He's webbed up an entire side of a skyscraper, encased the Blob (yes the Blob) in a ball of webbing....both easily beyond a feat of webbing up Logan.

And speaking of that fight, Parker could have easily let Blob suffocate (and he mentions it) but sticks a rolled-up newspaper in his mouth so he can breath through it. If we're talking max potential and bloodlust and whatnot, a similar tactic is not out of the question for Logan.

And apparently we have different opinions of Spidey's abilities. I've seen so many instances of him dodging way more stuff than Logan would present in a fight that I'm convinced if you stuck Peter in a fight and said "Don't get hit" he wouldn't unless the opponent was beyond Logan's speed.

I realize this is death to bring up, but the end of the Firelord fight is a great example. The fight was filled with PIS, and I'm not arguing for Spidey being that great, but the end when they're just locked in hand-to-hand and FL can't touch him is one of the few parts that doesn't contain massive PIS.

So yeah, dozens of hits. For a guy that laughs at multiple machine gun fire and all sorts of energy projection (Electro comes to mind as a good example) this isn't out of the question. Good post. I said stuff like this earlier, but people try to make it seem like webbing'd never work.There's really no logical reason why someone slower than Spidey should be able to hit him unless he's distracted. Spidey's dumbed down alot for story purposes.

DD is a top class fighter with a toned down early warning system. He can hang (nonPIS) w/anybody here but Spidey. He knows how to hit where it hurts. Anybody got scans of Cap VS DD fights?

Cap don't want it w/Spidey when Spidey's not playing around

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nice post up there jin. It was easier when I was just debating capt and Kam.

Anyway, the whole 10-feet thing was just for the webbing, not the punches. But it'll make Logan easier to punch. The entire webbing tactic is Spidey's biggest trump card, and if he just did that for a while, it would make Logan too slow to do much. And no, he doesn't have unlimited webbing, but he has enough to mess up Wolverine. He's webbed up an entire side of a skyscraper, encased the Blob (yes the Blob) in a ball of webbing....both easily beyond a feat of webbing up Logan.

And speaking of that fight, Parker could have easily let Blob suffocate (and he mentions it) but sticks a rolled-up newspaper in his mouth so he can breath through it. If we're talking max potential and bloodlust and whatnot, a similar tactic is not out of the question for Logan.

And apparently we have different opinions of Spidey's abilities. I've seen so many instances of him dodging way more stuff than Logan would present in a fight that I'm convinced if you stuck Peter in a fight and said "Don't get hit" he wouldn't unless the opponent was beyond Logan's speed.

I realize this is death to bring up, but the end of the Firelord fight is a great example. The fight was filled with PIS, and I'm not arguing for Spidey being that great, but the end when they're just locked in hand-to-hand and FL can't touch him is one of the few parts that doesn't contain massive PIS.

So yeah, dozens of hits. For a guy that laughs at multiple machine gun fire and all sorts of energy projection (Electro comes to mind as a good example) this isn't out of the question. shaddup dork

Originally posted by brainchild81
Cap don't want it w/Spidey when Spidey's not playing around BULLSHIT!

Originally posted by vitaldragon
this is tough

Spidey can take Cap.
But I don't know if DD can take Wolverine

Surely it would be a good match

I think Cap stands a fighting chance vs Spidey. Spidey certainly wouldn't win 10/10. He may get between 5 & 7/10. Wolverine sreds DD,(LOL) and Cap and Wolverine would be a tough match for Spidey, though he could possibly pull it off(I personally think Spidey would be too much for wolverine; one punch to the gut makes him puke his organs up).

Good posts, Kam; I thought you were supposed to be a legend around here... all the posts I've seen from you yet are pointing to the contrary: let me guess what your response to this is... "shuddup?"

Originally posted by Jade Lightning
Good posts, Kam; I thought you were supposed to be a legend around here... all the posts I've seen from you yet are pointing to the contrary: let me guess what your response to this is... "shuddup?" nah...its more like....


















kiss my ass

He's just playing around though.

Originally posted by Jade Lightning
Good posts, Kam; I thought you were supposed to be a legend around here... all the posts I've seen from you yet are pointing to the contrary: let me guess what your response to this is... "shuddup?" and i am a legend, but for being myself, and saying what i want....

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nice post up there jin. It was easier when I was just debating capt and Kam.

sorry man, Ihad no interest in debating this fight as I though dd and spidey could take it, but... you awoke the beast..



Originally posted by DigiMark007
Anyway, the whole 10-feet thing was just for the webbing, not the punches. But it'll make Logan easier to punch. The entire webbing tactic is Spidey's biggest trump card, and if he just did that for a while, it would make Logan too slow to do much.

hopefully.... again taskmaster with ONE sword was able to cut through spideys webbing and totally and completely negate it's battlefield effectiveness.. a faster, more endurable wolverine with two arms to cut with and six blades would easily be able to reporduce the same feat...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And no, he doesn't have unlimited webbing, but he has enough to mess up Wolverine. .

you missed the point.. I wasn't getting at the fact that he doesn't have an unlimitede amount of webbing.. what I'm getting at is the fact that spiderman wouldn't have an indefinite time to use all his webbing... In the graveyard fight he knew that if he had given wolverine even a second he was going to be killed.. so webbing wasn't much of an option as it would take time and probably wouldn't do much to stop logan's momentum in the first place.. your scenario gives spiderman the benefit of the doubt that he'll have that time.. I think that's a bit bias..

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He's webbed up an entire side of a skyscraper, encased the Blob (yes the Blob) in a ball of webbing....both easily beyond a feat of webbing up Logan. maybe...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And speaking of that fight, Parker could have easily let Blob suffocate (and he mentions it) but sticks a rolled-up newspaper in his mouth so he can breath through it. If we're talking max potential and bloodlust and whatnot, a similar tactic is not out of the question for Logan.
never said it wasn't, I just find it unlikely...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And apparently we have different opinions of Spidey's abilities. I've seen so many instances of him dodging way more stuff than Logan would present in a fight that I'm convinced if you stuck Peter in a fight and said "Don't get hit" he wouldn't unless the opponent was beyond Logan's speed. I agree.. if spiderman's main focus and only focus is to dodge I don't think logan could hit him until spidey began to fatigue.. but in order to attack spiderman would leave himself open to a counter.. just like real fighting.. there in lies the problem.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I realize this is death to bring up, but the end of the Firelord fight is a great example. The fight was filled with PIS, and I'm not arguing for Spidey being that great, but the end when they're just locked in hand-to-hand and FL can't touch him is one of the few parts that doesn't contain massive PIS.
NO SM vs FL
j/k... I don't really think that's comparible... I mean FL was already pretty fubr'ed by the time spidey began reining blows and FL is no where near the league of logan in h2h.. that's just not how he fights... trying to go fisticuffs with spiderman who's had TONS more experience in h2h was one of the worst things he could have done.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
So yeah, dozens of hits. For a guy that laughs at multiple machine gun fire and all sorts of energy projection (Electro comes to mind as a good example) this isn't out of the question. dozens of unanswered hits kinda is... and again.. don't know if you saw mk spidey 3 but spiderman wasn't dodging much of what electro was dishing out.. I'm not so sure I'd be using that as an example..

Originally posted by King KAM
BULLSHIT!
How Spidey can beat Cap

Step 1: Spidey balls fists up and moves in on Cap. Says "What's up now Cap?!?! I'ma f**k you up man. Throw dat sheild @ me and watch what the f**k happen!!!

Step 2: Cap won't throw it because he's quite sure he'll miss & he knows can't take too many Spidey punches w/out the shield. He tries to talk Spidey out of it. "Stand down Soldier"
Spidey says "Ain't gon happen Cap'n"

3: Spidey grabs shield and moves it out of the way enough for him to get a good punch in. Cap falls on the ground like this guy that got snuck

4: Spidey says "Who else want some?!?! Beat him down beat you down!!!"

Originally posted by jinzin
like when captain america wholloped him?
if he's twisting in the air and can't overcompensate while he's fighting or gets tricked by his opponent into getting hit he's still getting hit..
there's no point in trying to pass that off as otherwise... I'm not saying that the excuses you mentioned don't happen a lot but you're making it sound like spiderman is untouchable unless something else prohibits his movement or something.. that's clearly not the case.

Neutral?
I won't neglect that it happened but there was more pro spidey PIS in there than in ANY of their fights since then.. me and creshosck have gone over these points many times but I can hit them up again if you missed out...

the funny thing is the times the have gotten into it since with the execption of that punisher nonsense all took place in spiderman titles or by spiderman writers at the time.. interesting is it not?



aww dam it jinzin u beat me too it again.



no it won't.. hell class 100 punches aren't guaranteed to "mess logan up"... yet that's going to change for spiderman? I don't think so...

close enough.. remember how his jellied organs healed before hulk's next punch? guess not..
oh well
also good thing spiderman doesn't land punches instantaniously either..


I wouldn't, considering the fact that the only time parkers been able to consistantly avoid logan striking back at him was in a fight where logan LET spiderman hit him... the fact is spiderman isn't going to be getting any number of punches in on logan without getting diced... to land a dozen unanswered blows he'd have to do what he did in their graveyard fight and use hit and run tactics. otherwise he gets scewered real quick...



after a while? and what's happening in this scenario? is wolverine just letting spiderman cake the webbing on while he stands there helpless?

I seem to recall wolverine putting pressure on spiderman every time the guy tries to use webbing in a fight.. sure wolverine may not be able to cut through webbing indefinitely but spiderman doesn't have an indefinite amount of time to web him either..



he can punch him without being within 10 feet of logan?

wow spiderman must have got some CARAZAY upgrades with that new iron spidey suit..
great post and u beat me to it again jinzin dam u lol

Well as for the Spidey vs. the overrated Cap by King Kam, there's a pic in the Spidey respect thread with spiderman taking him out of the fight with just his webs in seconds... and he's fighting him in Civil War by the looks of it.

Originally posted by Jade Lightning
Well as for the Spidey vs. the overrated Cap by King Kam, there's a pic in the Spidey respect thread with spiderman taking him out of the fight with just his webs in seconds... and he's fighting him in Civil War by the looks of it. Wow really??? Ive never seen these images, or thought of that scenario.....



















































































































































shaddup

* Spidey can defeat Cap, while DD fights Logan... DD may not defeat Logan but DD is more than enough to keep him at bay... as Spidey defeats Cap, they can double-team on Logan... webs, billy-club, radar sense, spider-sense, nerve attacks and spidey punches & kicks, Logan will be utterly defeated and outclassed...

This debate shoulda happened a while ago jin. I don't know how we avoided each other this long.



Ah, but how much was Spidey using his webs? Rogue had a hard time breaking out of them. She would have eventually, but she was temporarily immobilized.

Take this for example:
http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38238lt.gif

Try to tell me that wouldn't completely stop Logan. And if he claws his way out, he'll still have so much stuck to him that he'll be a sitting duck for quite some time.



Yes, I'm bias. Let's get that out of the way. But that doesn't mean I'm not right.

Anyway, if Parker can find the time to web the Hulk, he can find the time to web Logan.



Peter has fought for hours on end. Fatigue isn't going to be an issue in this fight.



Fair enough. But when Electro messed up Spidey it was a massive explosion that hurt them both (I think that might've been mk 1 though). In any case, it was long distance and more of a spread than h2h fighting. Probably a bad example to use (though he has dodged Electro just fine plenty of times).

....

I had to focus on the webbing tactic, mainly because you and I will never see eye-to-eye on how likely it is for Spidey to dodge AND remain on the offensive while fighting Logan. I understand that we're not going to find much common ground there, and the truth is probably somewhere in between our opinions.

I still hold to my stance that Parker could beat him without spinning a single web (not 10/10 or anything, but a majority at least). And while killing him might be tough, a knockout or some sort of incapacitation is certainly possible. In any case, it would be a long fight...because if Parker doesn't go for the web tactic, he'll dodge Logan for a long time and Logan would take a ton of damage before even thinking about going down.

...not sure if that was a compromise on my part, but I'm at least trying to take off my blinders to see both sides a bit.

*Wolverine still loses the majority though *

Originally posted by DigiMark007
This debate shoulda happened a while ago jin. I don't know how we avoided each other this long.
definitely...



Originally posted by DigiMark007
Ah, but how much was Spidey using his webs? Rogue had a hard time breaking out of them. She would have eventually, but she was temporarily immobilized.

he tried using his webs a couple of times...
when he tried to web up taskmaster, he shot his webbing outwards in an attempt to literally wrap him in a net.. taskmaster compensated just handily...

neglecting the PIS that was horribly abound in the incident involving rogue, I'm just going to say this... rogue's a bad example for a couple of reasons... first is the obvious, she doesn't have claws, second is the fact that webs are resistant to brute strength due to their relative elasticity... comparing rogue getting webbed up to wolverine isn't a slipper that fits my friend.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Take this for example:
http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=38238lt.gif

Try to tell me that wouldn't completely stop Logan. And if he claws his way out, he'll still have so much stuck to him that he'll be a sitting duck for quite some time.

okay... it wouldn't...

why?

well first off spiderman is hitting hulk from behind, spiderman's already got an abundance of webbing on hulk before hulk is even concious enough to react...

now granted this is an impressive feat for spidey considering the compressed timeframe it occurs in, it's also extremely irregular.. but going by irregularly fast feats logan was able to dice off giests entire SKIN TIGHT bionic suit without so much as scratching him and he did this so fast that giest wasn't even able to react to it...

thus.. spidey's speed feat with webbs
vs. wolverine's with claws and we have ourselves another stalemate...

if spidey were to start webbing logan up from behind or wihout logan knowing for a moment somehow then yeah I see no reason to debate logan getting out since we would probably see him in a fasion similar to MTU.1... but that's giving spiderman the benefit of the doubt all over again.



Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yes, I'm bias. Let's get that out of the way. But that doesn't mean I'm not right.
if you're giving someone the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't make you right, it just sets up a false dicotomy. fact is, spiderman simply isn't guaranteed the time nor the distance to try something like this... he's just not.. and jumping away from the fight leaves matt exposed to a possible double team so I don't see that happening.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
anyway, if Parker can find the time to web the Hulk, he can find the time to web Logan.
if wolverine isn't paying attention allowing spidey to cake webbing on before wolverine eve realizes what's going on then sure.. but again.. for an aware wolverine.. bad example..



Originally posted by DigiMark007
Peter has fought for hours on end. Fatigue isn't going to be an issue in this fight. sure it will, you're once again missing the point... just because he can fight for hours on end doesn't mean he can fight at peak efficiency for hours on end.. it's like running.. spiderman can't sprint as long as wolverine can cause wolverine's healing factor would more effectively supress lactic acids from building up for longer periods of time.. therefore hed sprint longer than spiderman can, same applies here... while spiderman starts out faster he's not going to stay that way with wolverine putting on pressure since he'll be expending energy faster while wolverine maintains.. and considering the fact that wolverine doesn't have ranged capabilities he's very likely to be putting the pressure on spiderman.. fatigue does have an effect in this battle..
and that's not good for spidey... or dd for that matter...


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough. But when Electro messed up Spidey it was a massive explosion that hurt them both (I think that might've been mk 1 though). In any case, it was long distance and more of a spread than h2h fighting. Probably a bad example to use (though he has dodged Electro just fine plenty of times). actually electro had been zapping the crap out of spiderman throughout the duration of that fight.... all I'm saying is you're using dodging electro's blasts as a standard or something.. but the webhead's been hit by them once or twice for every time he dodges them.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
I still hold to my stance that Parker could beat him without spinning a single web (not 10/10 or anything, but a majority at least).

irmm.. I don't see how.. his punches have already proven to be as good a useless against wolverine...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And while killing him might be tough, a knockout or some sort of incapacitation is certainly possible.
no argument there.. I guess we just have different views on how..

Originally posted by DigiMark007
In any case, it would be a long fight...because if Parker doesn't go for the web tactic, he'll dodge Logan for a long time and Logan would take a ton of damage before even thinking about going down
agreed.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...not sure if that was a compromise on my part, but I'm at least trying to take off my blinders to see both sides a bit.

*Wolverine still loses the majority though * comprimise? doesn't sound much like one but it's probably as good as we're gonna get so I guess we're just left to the ol' "agree to disagree" bit.

I wouldn't call it irregular...Spidey's just not usually fighting opponents where he feels the need to do this. And while Hulk wasn't directly focused on Parker at the time, he was aware enough in the fight that I think it's reasonable to assume Parker could find a similar amount of time if he needed it while fighting Wolverine...especially if there's anywhere he can temporarily jump to where Wolverine can't get him.

A bunch of webbing is one thing, but one punch to knock him to the ground or against a wall, followed by webbing his arms to the floor/wall, and Wolverine wouldn't have any leverage to cut them. I see that as much more likely (and also doesn't involve the "dozens" of punches that we'll never completely agree on).



I'll concede that to a point....but I just can't see this fight (especially with the other 2 involved) lasting long enough for it to make a difference.



Fair enough. Though, for what its worth, you've done a good job convincing me it would at least be a lot closer fight than I originally thought.

Cap beats DD

Wolverine vs Spidey is anybody's game

DD beats Wolverine

Cap beats Spidey.

Originally posted by Grimm22
Cap beats DD

Wolverine vs Spidey is anybody's game

DD beats Wolverine

Cap beats Spidey.
DD most certainyl does not beat wolverine.
capt most certainly does not beat spiderman.

were do u come up with this crap?

bump. I like this thread.

I'd like for somebody to explain why Wolvie supporters complain so much about the Secret Wars PIS when there was absolutely no PIS when it came down to Spidey & Wolvie. They focus on everything else and try to throw out what happend to Wolvie as PIS.

Originally posted by brainchild81
I'd like for somebody to explain why Wolvie supporters complain so much about the Secret Wars PIS when there was absolutely no PIS when it came down to Spidey & Wolvie. They focus on everything else and try to throw out what happend to Wolvie as PIS.

Mainly because there's other showings that also don't have PIS where Logan fares much better. Read jin's comments earlier...he does a decent job of summarizing them.

And I'm in your camp, and think Spidey's in another league (HKH...lol). But Wolverine supporters have a bit more to go off of that the Secret Wars ownage.

Originally posted by capt it up
DD most certainyl does not beat wolverine.
capt most certainly does not beat spiderman.

were do u come up with this crap? lets not go there....Cap pwned wolverine so whoever wolverine can take so can cap

Originally posted by brainchild81
I'd like for somebody to explain why Wolvie supporters complain so much about the Secret Wars PIS when there was absolutely no PIS when it came down to Spidey & Wolvie. They focus on everything else and try to throw out what happend to Wolvie as PIS.

it's just a generalization of rationality for the writer who did that...

it's like this...

if spiderman was able to use what we refer to as PIS to overcome opponents 1-6 (being the rest of the x men) all whom should have given spiderman fits or just completely destroyed him (i.e. proffesor x, there's no logical reason spiderman could have gotten the jump on x unless he's somehow able to turn his brain "off", an ability which I've never seen him display) etc etc....
then there's little reason to assume that the obvious bias which allowed spiderman to jet through subjects 1-6 would suddenly be less bias by the time he got to subject 7 (wolverine)...
it has more to do with the credibility of the writer and the bias that writer had, or the bias that the story needed to have, a credibility which was lost as soon as spiderman got past subjects 1-6.

Also, you know I refrain from arguments revolved around PIS due to their entirely subjective nature, but at the same time whenever wolverine DOES display good feats against spiderman they are generally discarded as PIS by spidey supporters and secret wars is then presented by said supporters as a standard but said supporters don't generally acknowledge the PIS that DID infact take place or the rationality which I've just explained...

all in all, all this really does is demonstrate how utterly futile arguments that rely on PIS really are because what one person likes another may not, which is why we have to take the illogic in comics at face value... I've said it 100 times but IMO:
When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.

as far as my take on the whole secret wars scenario: I would just like to address a few things, wolverine said he didn't wish to hurt spiderman, IF he WAS actually aiming for spiderman with that shot (you already know this brainchild) he was probably aiming for a shot at the obliques... this is obviously going to result in a miss when dealing with spiderman. This was also wolverine's first head to head encounter with the wallcrawler, there's no way of telling how much wolverine was holding back, not fully knowing what he was dealing with. Finally all spiderman succeeded in doing was dodging one blow (which I would expect him to do) and bat logan away, not many people remember that wolverine was right back up two panels later like nothing happened.. I find that this was less of a fight persay and more of a situation in which the x-men were trying to CONTAIN spidey not really hurt the guy, but do to all of spiderman's assets, good luck containing the fellow, hell the FF couldn't even do that.

Originally posted by King KAM
lets not go there....Cap pwned wolverine so whoever wolverine can take so can cap
u keep wishing that