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People have been saying Lucifer is weaker then Spectre.

Bloodlust is on.

Originally posted by Takion
People have been saying Lucifer is weaker then Spectre.

Bloodlust is on.

whoever said that must be on crack....i dont see lucifer losing to anyone other than TOAA

Originally posted by tiakocom
whoever said that must be on crack....i dont see lucifer losing to anyone other than TOAA
Batdude123

Originally posted by tiakocom
whoever said that must be on crack....i dont see lucifer losing to anyone other than TOAA
Don't forget the great beast.

Spectre does take him what has lucifer done for everyone to say he's so great besides being one of gods creations.

Spectre had admitted to being less than lucifer.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Spectre had admitted to being less than lucifer.
Where was this?
And no Spectre has proven to be above lucifer and micheal.

I forget which comic( I dont have it) but it was posted in an arguement on this forum before.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
I forget which comic( I dont have it) but it was posted in an arguement on this forum before.
Well it was also posted that Lucifer can't even create a universe on his own............

It's also been stated that Spectre is second only to Yahweh.

Didn't Lucifer create his own multiverse?

From what I've heard of Spectre's defeats, Spectre sounds a lot more impressive, even more impressive than the Living Tribunal himself.

(LT is very impressive to begin with anyway)


However, I've read many of the Lucifer titles. It's one of the most creative and extensive comic books I've ever read, despite its working with limitted mythology/religion.

But....I haven't found anything in the Lucifer series that shocked me so much, or impressed me more than anything i have found in so many other comics.


I have certainly found nothing Lucifer has done to be more impressive or greater than the things everyone says Spectre has done.


If Lucifer is truly more powerful than Spectre at his full strength, then he must be hiding his power.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Didn't Lucifer create his own multiverse?
if he did it was with help.In a scan sir GS posted it clearly shows that lucifer couldn't make his own universe let alone a multiverse.

Then people should stop claiming the Lucifer can do this. You don't know how many times I've argued against Lucifer and/or Micheal, and then a fan of thiers goes " BUT LUCIFER AND MICHEAL CAN CREATED ENTIRE MULTIVERSES AND THEN DESTROY THEM AND BEAT...WHOEVER"

And i was always wondoring, if they are THAT POWERFUL than WHY do they bother with affiars on Earth?

Why would Lucifer had even dealt with Goddess Izamami, since she obviously is no where on that scale?


Thanks for clearing that up, and hopefully other debators catch on taht, and stop using that "lucifer can create universes like nothing" crap.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
From what I've heard of Spectre's defeats, Spectre sounds a lot more impressive, even more impressive than the Living Tribunal himself.

(LT is very impressive to begin with anyway)


However, I've read many of the Lucifer titles. It's one of the most creative and extensive comic books I've ever read, despite its working with limitted mythology/religion.

But....I haven't found anything in the Lucifer series that shocked me so much, or impressed me more than anything i have found in so many other comics.


I have certainly found nothing Lucifer has done to be more impressive or greater than the things everyone says Spectre has done.


If Lucifer is truly more powerful than Spectre at his full strength, then he must be hiding his power.



you have to remember a being like lucifer doesnt feel the need to show off he powers he knows he can do what he wants anyway..when u have that sort of powers everything else becomes borin to you

You're point makes perfect sense. He must be a JADED individual with all that power at his disposal.

However, if he truly is on a level of power where he can create entire multiverses and destroy him, then why would he have to BOTHER being manipulative ? He wouldn't ever have to use manipulation on ANYONE except Yahweh and Micheal, if he truly was this powerful, because he would then be able to FORCE anyone underneath to do his will.

This kind of power would ALSO mean NO STRUGGLE and NO STORY because he would be equivalent to CLASSIC BEYONDER, who doesn't even know wat DESIRE is.......

Originally posted by Lord Urizen


You're point makes perfect sense. He must be a JADED individual with all that power at his disposal.

However, if he truly is on a level of power where he can create entire multiverses and destroy him, then why would he have to BOTHER being manipulative ? He wouldn't ever have to use manipulation on ANYONE except Yahweh and Micheal, if he truly was this powerful, because he would then be able to FORCE anyone underneath to do his will.

This kind of power would ALSO mean NO STRUGGLE and NO STORY because he would be equivalent to CLASSIC BEYONDER, who doesn't even know wat DESIRE is.......


well if we go on only by comic rules then lucifer cant be that powerful, but if we talk outside comic then luficer is that cunning...only he knows why he needs to be that way maybe he figured the best way to defeat god is to turn his own creation against him...again thats only outside comic i realise im driftin into religion now

So Lucifer Wins?

Lucifer nigh omnipotent, and DC said the guy can create a universe and time from scratch.

Originally posted by Takion
So Lucifer Wins?

Spectre wins.

Originally posted by Takion
Lucifer nigh omnipotent, and DC said the guy can create a universe and time from scratch.
really

Originally posted by kgkg
really
Yes, why do you ask?

well if we go on only by comic rules then lucifer cant be that powerful, but if we talk outside comic then luficer is that cunning...only he knows why he needs to be that way maybe he figured the best way to defeat god is to turn his own creation against him...again thats only outside comic i realise im driftin into religion now



Actually you may be right. Lucifer cannot do jack sht to Yahweh directly. Perhaps hurting Yahweh's creation is the only way to hurt Yahweh, yet Yahweh seemed more than willing to destroy his own creation himself, because he saw it as flawed. Refer to the entire recreating universe posts i made in other threads.


If Lucifer is truly that powerful, than the point to doing the entire manipulation must be to entertain himself, because with that power he can force anyone under yahweh and micheal to do whatever he wants them 2 .

Originally posted by Takion
Yes, why do you ask? ya i think i did read somthing like that.

didn't he creat a universe/multiverse outside gods creation?

Originally posted by kgkg
ya i think i did read somthing like that.

didn't he creat a universe/multiverse outside gods creation? With Micheals energy?

Originally posted by Juntai
With Micheals energy?

WAs it a universe or multiverse they made together ?

All i know is that Lucifer embodies' Yahweh's will power while Micheal embodies his energy power.

Micheal would definately kick Spectre's ass tho, from what i heard, Yahweh is above Presence.

Micheal helped Lucifer create a Multiverse, Lucifer created a Universe and Time from scratch.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
well if we go on only by comic rules then lucifer cant be that powerful, but if we talk outside comic then luficer is that cunning...only he knows why he needs to be that way maybe he figured the best way to defeat god is to turn his own creation against him...again thats only outside comic i realise im driftin into religion now



Actually you may be right. Lucifer cannot do jack sht to Yahweh directly. Perhaps hurting Yahweh's creation is the only way to hurt Yahweh, yet Yahweh seemed more than willing to destroy his own creation himself, because he saw it as flawed. Refer to the entire recreating universe posts i made in other threads.


If Lucifer is truly that powerful, than the point to doing the entire manipulation must be to entertain himself, because with that power he can force anyone under yahweh and micheal to do whatever he wants them 2 .

There is No way that Lucifer will ever be able to hurt Yahweh/The Presence. The Presence creation is not flawed at all. Everything is a part of "The Great Plan". Lucifer is doing everything God wants him to do whether Lucifer realises it or not. Lucifer has pretty good fights on his wins. He went to the Goddess Izamami realm powerless and wanted to make everyone realise u don't mess with him, and he won ez. Beating Fenris who has been planning since Lucifer's fall is big. The Spectre still has 1 thing that Lucifer never has done, thats face TGEB who is Gods only equal. Spectre has fought Michael who is Lucifer's equal and lost, so I would say Lucifer wins.

Originally posted by kevdude
There is No way that Lucifer will ever be able to hurt Yahweh/The Presence. The Presence creation is not flawed at all. Everything is a part of "The Great Plan". Lucifer is doing everything God wants him to do whether Lucifer realises it or not. Lucifer has pretty good fights on his wins. He went to the Goddess Izamami realm powerless and wanted to make everyone realise u don't mess with him, and he won ez. Beating Fenris who has been planning since Lucifer's fall is big. The Spectre still has 1 thing that Lucifer never has done, thats face TGEB who is Gods only equal. Spectre has fought Michael who is Lucifer's equal and lost, so I would say Lucifer wins.

Lucifer slew Micheal once.

Originally posted by kevdude
There is No way that Lucifer will ever be able to hurt Yahweh/The Presence. The Presence creation is not flawed at all. Everything is a part of "The Great Plan". Lucifer is doing everything God wants him to do whether Lucifer realises it or not. Lucifer has pretty good fights on his wins. He went to the Goddess Izamami realm powerless and wanted to make everyone realise u don't mess with him, and he won ez. Beating Fenris who has been planning since Lucifer's fall is big. The Spectre still has 1 thing that Lucifer never has done, thats face TGEB who is Gods only equal. Spectre has fought Michael who is Lucifer's equal and lost, so I would say Lucifer wins. Micheal defeated Spectre under Gods decree. I don't see it a viable win. In other times, Micheal has had to come to Spectre for help or guidance.

Originally posted by Juntai
Micheal defeated Spectre under Gods decree. I don't see it a viable win. In other times, Micheal has had to come to Spectre for help or guidance.

Damn straight. Hey Takion, looks like this thread is still on.

Originally posted by batdude123
Damn straight. Hey Takion, looks like this thread is still on.
WE shall see

Spectre did defeat TGEB, but only being powered by God. Why would God help his servant rather than his son?

Michael pretty much LET Lucifer kill him and then he just came back to life like nothing happened. Yup Michael has needed help from The Spectre before. The Spectre did not defeat TGEB.

Originally posted by batdude123
Originally posted by kevdude
There is No way that Lucifer will ever be able to hurt Yahweh/The Presence. The Presence creation is not flawed at all. Everything is a part of "The Great Plan". Lucifer is doing everything God wants him to do whether Lucifer realises it or not. Lucifer has pretty good fights on his wins. He went to the Goddess Izamami realm powerless and wanted to make everyone realise u don't mess with him, and he won ez. Beating Fenris who has been planning since Lucifer's fall is big. The Spectre still has 1 thing that Lucifer never has done, thats face TGEB who is Gods only equal. Spectre has fought Michael who is Lucifer's equal and lost, so I would say Lucifer wins.


Good points you made bro.

Yahweh is flawed in my opinion though. He admitted to being dissatisfied with the current existance and decided he wanted to erase it and recreate it. A female character told him that hes sick, because that would mean killing trillions of innocent beings. He said no it doesnt mean that, because any NEW decision he makes automatically goes back to the beginning of time. Therefore when he erases an existance, it will be like it NEVER existed...

His "Great Plan" must have been DONE many times over, and if that's the case then in essense there's a total flaw.

Also his "Great Plan" totally goes against free will, suggesting that Vertigo's Uni/multiverse is like a story he writes, or a soap opera that Yahweh is doing for his own purposes and lacking in care for anything and anyone else. ok...that may be off topic...

but the point is Yahweh is a flawed being.


The Presence is not flawed, because the Presence is said not to be a character. It simply IS...it's not a decisive force like Yahweh is, it's just POWER.

And by the way, whose TGEB ?

oh never mind, Great Evil Beast, sorry

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Good points you made bro.

Yahweh is flawed in my opinion though. He admitted to being dissatisfied with the current existance and decided he wanted to erase it and recreate it. A female character told him that hes sick, because that would mean killing trillions of innocent beings. He said no it doesnt mean that, because any NEW decision he makes automatically goes back to the beginning of time. Therefore when he erases an existance, it will be like it NEVER existed...

His "Great Plan" must have been DONE many times over, and if that's the case then in essense there's a total flaw.

Also his "Great Plan" totally goes against free will, suggesting that Vertigo's Uni/multiverse is like a story he writes, or a soap opera that Yahweh is doing for his own purposes and lacking in care for anything and anyone else. ok...that may be off topic...

but the point is Yahweh is a flawed being.


The Presence is not flawed, because the Presence is said not to be a character. It simply IS...it's not a decisive force like Yahweh is, it's just POWER.

The Presence/Yahweh (same) are not flawed at all. God already told both Michael and Lucifer a big secret. Telling them everything has been thought out thousands and thousands of times in his head way before everything was created, and everything happened the way he wanted it to happen. Even now when in the Lucifer comic Lucifer KNOWS now that God leaving is a part of "The Great Plan", and if there is no plan like rit now then it as well is a part of "The Great Plan". The only thing he left out which God even said is almost impossible is not knowing who will defend Creation and who will be the person against it being allowed to live (with God being the judge), he wanted a tiny piece of randomness in his plan. Also everything in Creation is God anyway, its a part of a dream he dreamt up so that he would sorta not be alone.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence/Yahweh (same) are not flawed at all. God already told both Michael and Lucifer a big secret. Telling them everything has been thought out thousands and thousands of times in his head way before everything was created, and everything happened the way he wanted it to happen. Even now when in the Lucifer comic Lucifer KNOWS now that God leaving is a part of "The Great Plan", and if there is no plan like rit now then it as well is a part of "The Great Plan". The only thing he left out which God even said is almost impossible is not knowing who will defend Creation and who will be the person against it being allowed to live (with God being the judge), he wanted a tiny piece of randomness in his plan. Also everything in Creation is God anyway, its a part of a dream he dreamt up so that he would sorta not be alone. It's all part of the plan.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence/Yahweh (same) are not flawed at all. God already told both Michael and Lucifer a big secret. Telling them everything has been thought out thousands and thousands of times in his head way before everything was created, and everything happened the way he wanted it to happen. Even now when in the Lucifer comic Lucifer KNOWS now that God leaving is a part of "The Great Plan", and if there is no plan like rit now then it as well is a part of "The Great Plan". The only thing he left out which God even said is almost impossible is not knowing who will defend Creation and who will be the person against it being allowed to live (with God being the judge), he wanted a tiny piece of randomness in his plan. Also everything in Creation is God anyway, its a part of a dream he dreamt up so that he would sorta not be alone.


That makes a lot of sense, and sort of reminds me of the original Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos Quest myth where taht infinite being tried to create more than himself, so he wouldn't be alone. Pretty cool stuff.


However I still beleive Yahweh is a flawed being and here's why.


He said he was DISsatisfied with current existance. It was not pleasing him. That "Great Plan" must have been re done over and over. If that's the case, then how was his plan perfect ?

I understand your point about letting there be some randomness to prevent his boredom. And i understand your point about him trying to prevent being lonely.

I would say point taken, except for this: A being who is EFFECTED by boredom and loneliness is imperfect. Those states of mind are too human, and although may logically belong to a SUPREME BEING with truly infinite power, those states of mind would NOT belong to a PERFECT and COMPLETE BEING with no need for further perfection.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's all part of the plan..



LOL sorry bro..that made me crack up i duno y

Yahweh created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.

created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.



There we go again. Which God are you talking about ? The God you beleive in, or the God in DC?

I don't care about what version of God you beleive in, that's your personal beleif, but the God in DC is flawed for the reasons i stated before, and you didnt address each reason.

Why can't you just answer the questions and address EACH claim i made instead of simplifying your conclusion by saying "GOD IS ABOVE YOUR UNDERSTANDING..deal with it"

its a DESPERATE response. Just address and counter my claims i made, then i will take your point seriously.

Don't dismiss my argument as "well your will against God's is nothing, so stop arguing"

Yahweh the COMIC BOOK character ...thats all he is. You cannot expect me to BUY into your last sentence. No comic book character is above the writers or readers, simply because WE EXIST and they don't.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
created the ideas of perfect and imperfect in that universe, in fact, he created every ideal, concept and realm, and everything in between. Those ideals cannot be applied to him. Needless to say you could never comprehend the will or intention of God. He says himself that it is all according to plan. That's all you need to know.



There we go again. Which God are you talking about ? The God you beleive in, or the God in DC?

I don't care about what version of God you beleive in, that's your personal beleif, but the God in DC is flawed for the reasons i stated before, and you didnt address each reason.

Why can't you just answer the questions and address EACH claim i made instead of simplifying your conclusion by saying "GOD IS ABOVE YOUR UNDERSTANDING..deal with it"

its a DESPERATE response. Just address and counter my claims i made, then i will take your point seriously.

Don't dismiss my argument as "well your will against God's is nothing, so stop arguing"

Yahweh the COMIC BOOK character ...thats all he is. You cannot expect me to BUY into your last sentence. No comic book character is above the writers or readers, simply because WE EXIST and they don't. You mean Yahweh in Vertigo? You keep saying DC's god is flawed. DC's god isn't a character at all. I own the entire Lucifer series up to issue 72, I think I've got a better interpretation of it then you. In Vertigo, Yahweh created everything, he created the POSSIBILITY for everything. He created the concepts. Everything I said is true.
He is beyond concepts of good and evil, truth and lies. He can't be imperfect. He created the very idea of imperfect. It didn't exist before that--- but HE did.

I don't believe he was dissatisfied with how everything was turning out. He was very careful not to say to much during his discussion with Elaine and Lilith about what he should do with creation (even though he already knows whats going to happen, he just wants them to do it themselves, thats why he gave them free will). Also The Presence/Yahweh DC God is the same as Vergito God. Also is above everyone in DC and is not a comic book character, at least thats how it seems DC/Vergito has it set up.

In terms of Vertigo/DC, I have to admit that's my mistake. I was caught up in my thoughts, I MEANT Vertigo's God. Dc doesn't have a "God" it has a supreme force.


You PROBABLY DO have a better intepretation than I do, but ARGUE it then...you're not doing that. Why can't you ATTACK my individual points bro? You are simplifying you're argument by saying that he is a Supreme Being and therefore perfect, and I shouldn't question that.

Untrue...I have every right as reader and debator to question anything I want.

I really feel you are confusing Vertigo's God with your own. To tell me that I as a READER and an EXISTING human being could never comprehend or judge the will and structure of a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER is unrealistic....

I made numerous points for why I think what, PLEASE ADDRESS THEM individually if you want to convince me of anything.

Thank you

Originally posted by Lord Urizen



In terms of Vertigo/DC, I have to admit that's my mistake. I was caught up in my thoughts, I MEANT Vertigo's God. Dc doesn't have a "God" it has a supreme force.


You PROBABLY DO have a better intepretation than I do, but ARGUE it then...you're not doing that. Why can't you ATTACK my individual points bro? You are simplifying you're argument by saying that he is a Supreme Being and therefore perfect, and I shouldn't question that.

Untrue...I have every right as reader and debator to question anything I want.

I really feel you are confusing Vertigo's God with your own. To tell me that I as a READER and an EXISTING human being could never comprehend or judge the will and structure of a COMIC BOOK CHARACTER is unrealistic....

I made numerous points for why I think what, PLEASE ADDRESS THEM individually if you want to convince me of anything.

Thank you Because everything has gone to Yahweh's plan, just as he said. Lucifer throwing a wrench into his plan? Par of the plan, he created him to do it. Everything he created, he created to do exactly as it does. If the universe is destroyed? It's part of the plan. Don't you get it? Things like Reality, Concepts, Universes, Powers, Ideas, Imaginations, only exist because he wills it to be so. Yahweh created the possibility of creation altogether, and every minute detail of it. And it's all part f his plan. Whatever that plan may be. Before that, there was just him. The very concept of imperfect only implies to inside of creation... which is not Yahweh, but the things he's made.

YES I DO....HES SUPREME BEING..HE HAS INFINITE POWER AND JURISDICTION AND CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING in VERTIGO....


I was never arguing against that. I was saying he is IMPERFECT.

You still haven't addressed my individual points, do you simply not have the patience for it?

PLZ just do me the favor of attacking my points that i made before, it will further convince me of your point.









P.S...i am not the only person who thinks Yahweh is flawed. JVenom also agrees with me on that, in fact he convinced ME of the fact, in the thread "Battle of Gods" which you also stopped answering.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
YES I DO....HES SUPREME BEING..HE HAS INFINITE POWER AND JURISDICTION AND CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING in VERTIGO....


I was never arguing against that. I was saying he is IMPERFECT.

You still haven't addressed my individual points, do you simply not have the patience for it?

PLZ just do me the favor of attacking my points that i made before, it will further convince me of your point.









P.S...i am not the only person who thinks Yahweh is flawed. JVenom also agrees with me on that, in fact he convinced ME of the fact, in the thread "Battle of Gods" which you also stopped answering. You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?

Juntai...i beleived i overlooked your last statement by mistake.


I understand when you say the IMPERFECTION is a concept, and you say a concept is only a multiversal aspect and Yahweh being above that means he lacks that.


However someone states before that he can feel BOREDOM and LONELINESS....

if that is the CASE, then he Is imperfect, because boredom and loneliness are human and imperfect states of mind.

A TRUE perfect being would be complete in itself, therefore not NEED to satisfy itself with any other.




PRESENCE is perfection...Yahweh is not.


Now i ask you:


Does Yahweh feel and have to prevent his own Boredom or loneliness ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Juntai...i beleived i overlooked your last statement by mistake.


I understand when you say the IMPERFECTION is a concept, and you say a concept is only a multiversal aspect and Yahweh being above that means he lacks that.


However someone states before that he can feel BOREDOM and LONELINESS....

if that is the CASE, then he Is imperfect, because boredom and loneliness are human and imperfect states of mind.

A TRUE perfect being would be complete in itself, therefore not NEED to satisfy itself with any other.




PRESENCE is perfection...Yahweh is not.


Now i ask you:


Does Yahweh feel and have to prevent his own Boredom or loneliness ? Yahweh's words and actions are directly relative to his great plan. Whatever that plan may be.

You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?


Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.


I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.


He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.



If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs.......

Yahweh's words and actions are directly relative to his great plan. Whatever that plan may be.


AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

I did not see anything that would convince me that JVenom is right about yahweh/the presence being a flawed being at all! I own most of the Lucifer comics and own a few Swamp Thing and some Spectre comics. Everything points to what Juntai is saying is true..

Also he created everything from nothing. Just to hard for any of us to comprehend that.

Originally posted by kevdude
I did not see anything that would convince me that JVenom is right about yahweh/the presence being a flawed being at all! I own most of the Lucifer comics and own a few Swamp Thing and some Spectre comics. Everything points to what Juntai is saying is true..

Also he created everything from nothing. Just to hard for any of us to comprehend that.

AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You said the very fact that he created creation makes him imperfect. Do I really need to get into how dumb that is? Yahweh decided to make the most beautiful thing... Existance. And then did it. Everything inside and outside of creation, has gone exactly has how his ultimate will, wills it to be. Where's the imperfect-ness?


Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.


I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.


He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.



If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs....... I'm telling you what is written, not an interpretation. Yahweh created the very possibility for existance to exist. And also created existance. And then down to every grain of sand, through all time, and mapped out his grand plan of how everything is supposed to be.. And everything is going exactly as planned. He created the most beautiful thing. He is beyond concepts and ideas. Not even Lucifer or Micheal can comprehend Yahweh truly.

]]]]]





]

Again your intepretation, you're not giving me fact or even contradicting my points at all.You're just simplifying you're argument. That may work for you, but its not convincing me anything.


I never said the first sentence you wrote. Never.


He created Existance? literally impossible ...if he already EXISTED....he did not CREATE existance...existance a CONCEPT that even HE is subjected to.



If things have gone exactly as he wished them to be, then why would he be disapproving of the current existance? unless im severely mistaken, and if things all do go his way, then there is NO free will, only a dictatorship.

again..just yours and my interpretations at ODDs.......

Sorry bro, had to repeat





AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

LOL wow.....

A being cannot create the possibility of existance if that being ALREADY EXISTS...

the Concept of Existance surpasses all....even a Supreme Perfect God.

It is literally impossible for someone to EXIST before the concept of EXISTANCE does.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Sorry bro, had to repeat





AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE He is complete. Everything is an extension of him. He even created the concept of 'complete'. He created everything and everything, in and out of creation, exists as an extension of himself, and his will.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LOL wow.....

A being cannot create the possibility of existance if that being ALREADY EXISTS...

the Concept of Existance surpasses all....even a Supreme Perfect God.

It is literally impossible for someone to EXIST before the concept of EXISTANCE does. I can't help it that that you can't understand and accept it. It's not my fault.

Yahweh is not a being neccisarily. He's drawn as one simply because that's how he allows himself to be recognized. You'll notice when Elaine goes to talk to Yahweh, she walks across white pages and panels, and then Yahweh has create an image of himself that she can even understand, just to talk to her. He is beyond all ideas and comprehensions. Even beings who understand existance as a whole, cannot comprehend Yahweh or his motives. It's not my fault you cannot accept this, but it is what happens.. Yahweh created EVERYTHING.

Ne ways thats besides the point.

I'm gonna budge, and say that although Yahweh is probably as close to perfection as anything can get...he is not quite there.

You cannot be both perfect and imperfect at the same time, well in some senses you can, but if you're saying Yahweh is perfect, then imperfection cannot come from him.

Existance in all its OTHER forms certainly can. But since he ALREADY existed, he did not create the CONCEPT of existance, it was THERE with him the entire duration.


If Yahweh needs for things to go his way, if he NEEDS or WANTS anything...than he is imperfect. Perfection needs nothing, and since everything needs and or wants another, NOTHING is perfect or is perfection,


I have yet to see you answer my two questions above

Can Yahweh feel or feel the need to prevent boredom and loneliness ?

I can't help it that that you can't understand and accept it. It's not my fault.


LOL but you see...yes you can. You can CLEAR all my confusion and misconceptions if you just ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and ATTACK MY POINTS directly......

You keep insisting on avoiding to do so, so until you do, i will not be convinced of anything

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
AGAIN...YOU KEEP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS,,,

CAN HE FEEL BOREDOM OR LONELINESS?



DOES HE NEED TO PREVENT BOREDOM AND OR LONELINESS???

IF HE NEEDS TO DO SO, HE IS IMPERFECT


A PERFECT BEING NEEDS NO OTHER BECAUSE IT WOULD BE COMPLETE IN ITSELF

LIKE THE PRESENCE

We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.

And Juntai..some thing must be wrong with my computer, which may cause our or my misunderstanding.


Every time i post something, then look back on it, i see your FULL argument, but before i post something, i only see pieces of your argument.

i dont know why that is ????

Try to undestand Juntai, the only reason i misunderstand you is bcuz my computer only allows me to see pieces of your argument for wahtever reason....so ill keep trying to debate as best i can

We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.



That's cool, but Juntai just stated that Presence and Yahweh are too different things.



Even if Yahweh did conform to Elaine to be a recognizable form, his reasoning still consisted of self conflict.

If he can unwillingly feel boredom or loneliness, because someone said the reason he created existance was to prevent his loneliness, then he is imperfect.

I never said he's not supreme, and not the highest being imaginable..i just sed he's flawed. Since his creation is flawed, he most probably is as well.

Perfection doesnt DESIRE anything...its already perfect itself.

Even if everything goes the way YAHWEH wants, the VERY fact that he WANTS anything makes him imperfect.

And btw, Juntai has not addressed all my previous points.

He simplifed all his answers expecting me to be convinced, isntead of directly nullifying my claims with his proof.

I asked him numerous times to do so. Maybe my computer freezes and doesnt let some of his info come thru, who knows. But i do not feel he has ANSWERED my questions....

He might have TRIED...in all sincerity, and i appreciate that, but he hasn't quite hit it, especially since he danced around my direct and specific questions and claims.

thats all

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
We are not ignoring you, everything has already been discussed and answered its just you don't understand or get it. yahweh/the presence can feel boredom or loneliness, he can also feel ALOT MORE THEN THAT, it is beyond everything. IT IS GOD. Hal Jordan was embraced by The Presence, and he couldn't even begin to understand it.



That's cool, but Juntai just stated that Presence and Yahweh are too different things.



Even if Yahweh did conform to Elaine to be a recognizable form, his reasoning still consisted of self conflict.

If he can unwillingly feel boredom or loneliness, because someone said the reason he created existance was to prevent his loneliness, then he is imperfect.

I never said he's not supreme, and not the highest being imaginable..i just sed he's flawed. Since his creation is flawed, he most probably is as well.

Perfection doesnt DESIRE anything...its already perfect itself.

Even if everything goes the way YAHWEH wants, the VERY fact that he WANTS anything makes him imperfect. Only by your reasoning, but then again, you can barely understand how carbon based life forms work, let alone understand the motives of Yahweh. Everything has perfectly gone along Yahweh's plan, we just can't pretend to know or comprehend the plan. Yahweh created everything, before that, it was just him, which is what you just wrote as being perfection.

If Yahweh felt any lonliness, than it because he first invented the idea and concept of lonliness, and then applied it to himself. Because NOTHING exists without his will. Even the things you seem to consider as basic and all consuming/applying concepts. He created it all.

why is anyone talking about the presance if this thread is about the spectre and lucifer all it does is take away from the real battle

Only by your reasoning, but then again, you can barely understand how carbon based life forms work, let alone understand the motives of Yahweh. Everything has perfectly gone along Yahweh's plan, we just can't pretend to know or comprehend the plan. Yahweh created everything, before that, it was just him, which is what you just wrote as being perfection.




Ultamely Juntai this really comes down to your intepretation VS my own, and I doubt this will go anywhere as we'll both stick to our own.


I will conclude my argument against Yahweh by saying this much:

You're telling me that I could never comprehend the mentality and actuality that is Yahweh. He has his reasons for everything, and many of those reasons are way beyond by ability to grasp.

Cool....although again this seems like the Yahweh you probably beleive in, and not the Vertigo Yahweh.

Remember bro, the Yahweh is Vertigo is JUST A CHARACTER...nothing more, he doesn't exist in reality. You're telling me that I AS READER and AS an ACTUAL EXISTING HUMAN BEING cannot comprehend the "WILL" of a COMIC book character.


As if is truly superior to ME in anyway. Yahweh from Vertigo, and ANY other character from ANY comic book world is in NO WAY superior to the WRITERS OR READERS. WE are superior to them, because WE EXIST and they do not. No matter how "powerful" these characters are, they are subject to the writer's plans, and our reading.

Therefore, it is our right to question and debate all we want about any character we want. To tell me that Vertigo's Yahweh is beyond anything I can understand is totally unrealistic, and again probably fueled by your bias of your own personal beleif in God.











If Yahweh felt any lonliness, than it because he first invented the idea and concept of lonliness, and then applied it to himself. Because NOTHING exists without his will. Even the things you seem to consider as basic and all consuming/applying concepts. He created it all.


For the sake of moving on, I will take your point and simply accept it. You did write a lot of responses to my argument, which means you must have considered it in your own way. If VERTIGO says that Yahweh is beyond even the concepts of Existance, Loneliness, and Boredom, then I must accept that, no matter how much it conflicts with my reasoning, or how much sense it makes.

Like i said though, its just writers. There is no REAL Vertigo Yahweh, therefore to tell me that he is beyond ME, an existing reader, is a false argument.





But......I'll budge and say that because of the points you made, perhaps he is not flawed.....maybe he IS perfect....even if he is ABOVE perfection in your intepretation,.

i so dont care about the presance or TOAA in this battle id like to know who would win between lucifer and the spectre! I mean how does anyone in here know if Micheals powers even go up or down when the presence tells him to do something if no one can prove they do then they probably dont fluctuate meaning when he beat the spectre in day of vengence or whatever comic it was it was probably cause he's just plain stronger, the whole spectre was called to help micheal get that sword out means nothing, i might have a sword in my chest and since its such a horrible wond i probably couldnt get it out myself either but would have to ask for help even from someone smaller and possibly weaker then me does that make me any smaller or weaker no just means i needed help in one occassion.

I have been reading your posts your correct but I don't think that was the intent of the writer. If Yaweh feels and must satisfy himself, he is not perfect for perfection desires nothing. If he was unhappy with his work than that would many him fallible. I think Juns trying to win the arguement with " he works in mysterious ways" , and that does not cut it anymore.

I have been reading your posts your correct but I don't think that was the intent of the writer. If Yaweh feels and must satisfy himself, he is not perfect for perfection desires nothing. If he was unhappy with his work than that would many him fallible. I think Juns trying to win the arguement with " he works in mysterious ways" , and that does not cut it anymore.



THANK YOU BIG SEXY,....

That is the point i was trying to make, and you made the most direct version of my points.

I really beleive that Jun, maybe unknowingly, is using his own possible religious bias, or his own intepretation of what and who God is and projecting it upon Vertigo's God.

If Vertigo SAYS Yahweh is perfect, than no1 can argue. Otherwise, we can argue all we want.

Well in DC that is how it seems they have it set up Lord Uziren. They have the 5D imps who are above the the 3D beings. They have Earth Prime which is suppose to be OUR EARTH and it is in there comics. And who is there god they have picked to be over everything (even us in there comics). Yahweh/The Presence is over DC Comics. DC/Vergito have already put him to being perfect, just read the comics that deal with religion in DC. Maybe you might understand now since I put it like this .

Maybe ur right.

Ne ways that entire argument between Juntai and myself has nothing to do with Lucifer and Spectre per say. This was started in another thread "BATTLE OF GODS" i started

where it was decided by me and a few other debators, including Big Sexy, that TOAA may be Yahweh since Yahweh is a flawed character in our opinion, and TOAA theres not enough about him to debate that, TOAA probably simple IS just like Presence just IS..no charactertization done, only proof of supremecy.



Ne ways i understand what you mean. If Vertigo claims that Yahweh is perfect, then i can't argue that. HOWEVER..i'd prefer to see where VERTIGO claims this...what comic book issue, what handbook, what description? On Vertigo's main website Lucifer comics section, it says that fact no where.


So until i see for myself that Yahweh is claimed as perfection and flawless by Vertigo themselves, i along with several other skeptics will still go under the impression that he is flawed, but as close to perfection as he can possibly be.

Again its all on how you define perfection as well.

.......that TOAA may be Yahweh....



sorry TYPO

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Ne ways that entire argument between Juntai and myself has nothing to do with Lucifer and Spectre per say. This was started in another thread "BATTLE OF GODS" i started

where it was decided by me and a few other debators, including Big Sexy, that TOAA may be Yahweh since Yahweh is a flawed character in our opinion, and TOAA theres not enough about him to debate that, TOAA probably simple IS just like Presence just IS..no charactertization done, only proof of supremecy.



Ne ways i understand what you mean. If Vertigo claims that Yahweh is perfect, then i can't argue that. HOWEVER..i'd prefer to see where VERTIGO claims this...what comic book issue, what handbook, what description? On Vertigo's main website Lucifer comics section, it says that fact no where.


So until i see for myself that Yahweh is claimed as perfection and flawless by Vertigo themselves, i along with several other skeptics will still go under the impression that he is flawed, but as close to perfection as he can possibly be.

Again its all on how you define perfection as well. Then buy the comics and read them. You'll figure out more about Veritgo's character. Until then, don't argue what he may or may not be, or be capable of, with people who do own them. I've been telling you how the character is written. And you're trying to convince ME, that I apperently can't read and see my own comics. Because it doesn't agree what you think he SHOULD be, without even knowing how he is written and portrayed.

Then buy the comics and read them. You'll figure out more about Veritgo's character. Until then, don't argue what he may or may not be, or be capable of, with people who do own them. I've been telling you how the character is written. And you're trying to convince ME, that I apperently can't read and see my own comics. Because it doesn't agree what you think he SHOULD be, without even knowing how he is written and portrayed.



Untrue Juntai. i do read the Lucifer titles, i may not own 52 issues but i have many, ive read the Graphic Novel Cruz, im probably AS familiar with Lucifer as I am with Dawn.


I understand how Yahweh is portrayed already, but Vertigo has not boldly stated that "YAHWEH IS PERFECTION" they have only stated that he embodies EVERY concept he created. That makes him EVERYTHING....so if he is every single concept, then he is not purely perfection.

I understand that Vertigo set up the mythos as such to MAKE it that EVEN the reader wouldn't be able to comprehend his methods/reasoning.

However, again, it is just a comic book character, they never stated he is perfect in that wording (atleast i have yet to come across when they stated so), and besides, no one, not even Vertigo can claim ANY character to be perfection since nobody in REALITY knows what perfection really is.

In all of past Literature from Shakespear uptil now, no character by any literary scholar or even english teacher has been defined as perfection, so why would a comic book "CHARACTER" be officially defined as such ?

Yes, i know, that point may be off, but everyone brings in off points, including you with your version of God.

Ne ways, Juntai, lets just end that. IT REALLY IS just our interpretations at odds, so it will go no where. Ok ?

"Crux" i meant, typo