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This must have been done b4 ?

reveresh my memory who midnighters is. I get that name mixed up with other characters

The batman esque character from the Authority !

midnighters **** wolverine in the butt and like it

Midnighter's rap sheet reads like a second rate Sabretooth and with out a healing factor that even starts to stack up to Wolverine or Sabretooth, Wolverine wins.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Midnighter's rap sheet reads like a second rate Sabretooth and with out a healing factor that even starts to stack up to Wolverine or Sabretooth, Wolverine wins.

Rap sheet? What's a rap sheet?

And in the most recent Authority arc, MN'er can be seen single-handedly giving the rest of the team trouble. Hell, he was punking Apollo (see: Superman clone) before they got broken up by people who could actually beat MN'er.

And actually, he does heal faster than normal...but still much slower than Logan.

Still, MN'er takes one look at Logan, and knows exactly what he's capable of and how to beat him. He'll see the claws, the healing, the strength/reflexes...and probably won't be touched by Logan unless he wants to be. And he doesn't have qualms about killing.

He got plenty of sharp/hard stuff in his aresenal (think Batman if he ever went to the dark side), and while it wouldn't damage admantium, he'd mess up Logan's face & body something fierce. And based on more than a few feats, I'd put MN'er around the 3 to 5-ton strength range. Nothing special, but he's more about speed and tactics than about brute force.

...Wolverine has a chance to win this. But I'd give it to MN'er 7/10. And if you read Authority regularly, you'll know I'm being generous to Wolverine. He's definitely well above street level (not that Wolverine isn't, but still...).

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Rap sheet? What's a rap sheet?

And in the most recent Authority arc, MN'er can be seen single-handedly giving the rest of the team trouble. Hell, he was punking Apollo (see: Superman clone) before they got broken up by people who could actually beat MN'er.

And actually, he does heal faster than normal...but still much slower than Logan.

Still, MN'er takes one look at Logan, and knows exactly what he's capable of and how to beat him. He'll see the claws, the healing, the strength/reflexes...and probably won't be touched by Logan unless he wants to be. And he doesn't have qualms about killing.

He got plenty of sharp/hard stuff in his aresenal (think Batman if he ever went to the dark side), and while it wouldn't damage admantium, he'd mess up Logan's face & body something fierce.

...Wolverine has a chance to win this. But I'd give it to MN'er 7/10. And if you read Authority regularly, you'll know I'm being generous to Wolverine. He's definitely well above street level (not that Wolverine isn't, but still...).

couldnt have sad it better myself

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Rap sheet? What's a rap sheet?

And in the most recent Authority arc, MN'er can be seen single-handedly giving the rest of the team trouble. Hell, he was punking Apollo (see: Superman clone) before they got broken up by people who could actually beat MN'er.

And actually, he does heal faster than normal...but still much slower than Logan.

Still, MN'er takes one look at Logan, and knows exactly what he's capable of and how to beat him. He'll see the claws, the healing, the strength/reflexes...and probably won't be touched by Logan unless he wants to be. And he doesn't have qualms about killing.

He got plenty of sharp/hard stuff in his aresenal (think Batman if he ever went to the dark side), and while it wouldn't damage admantium, he'd mess up Logan's face & body something fierce. And based on more than a few feats, I'd put MN'er around the 3 to 5-ton strength range. Nothing special, but he's more about speed and tactics than about brute force.

...Wolverine has a chance to win this. But I'd give it to MN'er 7/10. And if you read Authority regularly, you'll know I'm being generous to Wolverine. He's definitely well above street level (not that Wolverine isn't, but still...).

... you don't know what a rapsheet is?

Anyway you say Apollo is a Superman clone like that some how means anything. What has Apollo ever done that puts him in the same league as Superman? Nothing. Apollo would be lucky to be considered the square root of Superman.

Like I said every single impressive thing MN has done has already been done by Sabretooth but almost always a notch above. Most of MN feats involve beating down second rate ripoffs of established characters... like that somehow makes him impressive.

His built in combat computer makes him impressive.

Midnighter 7/10.

He'll always be at least 20 steps ahead of Logan.

Originally posted by illadelph12
His built in combat computer makes him impressive.

Midnighter 7/10.

He'll always be at least 20 steps ahead of Logan.
?

And?

Have you read Authority?

Originally posted by illadelph12
And?

Have you read Authority?
when was the last time u read a wolverine comic?

The only help MN battle computer will be is to show him the million different ways Wolverine guts him like a fish...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... you don't know what a rapsheet is?

Anyway you say Apollo is a Superman clone like that some how means anything. What has Apollo ever done that puts him in the same league as Superman? Nothing. Apollo would be lucky to be considered the square root of Superman.

Like I said every single impressive thing MN has done has already been done by Sabretooth but almost always a notch above. Most of MN feats involve beating down second rate ripoffs of established characters... like that somehow makes him impressive.

Fair enough. Apollo is a second-rate Super-type. But he has still held up a skyscraper without much trouble, survived a trip to the Earth's core via an active volcano, and can at least achieve mach speed in flight. The fact that MN'er can take him down is telling enough.

And are we going to hold the fact that he's in Wildstorm against MN'er?? No, he doesn't have established opponents, because Wildstorm isn't as established as Marvel. But his fighting implants make him roughly equivalent of the Deep Blue chess computer (I use chess as an analogy because capt's scan used it too). Deep Blue could calculate thousands of moves per second. MN'ers roughly the same, except with fighting. And he knows his opponents strengths, weaknesses, and abilities, so it's like giving Deep Blue access to Kasparov's thought processes.

Not to mention his weapons...not adamantium knives, mind you, but thowable shirukens, a reinforced titanium staff, and plenty of others things to mess him up.

Also keep in mind I gave Wolverin 3/10. I didn't say he can't win.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough. Apollo is a second-rate Super-type. But he has still held up a skyscraper without much trouble, survived a trip to the Earth's core via an active volcano, and can at least achieve mach speed in flight. The fact that MN'er can take him down is telling enough.

And are we going to hold the fact that he's in Wildstorm against MN'er?? No, he doesn't have established opponents, because Wildstorm isn't as established as Marvel. But his fighting implants make him roughly equivalent of the Deep Blue chess computer (I use chess as an analogy because capt's scan used it too). Deep Blue could calculate thousands of moves per second. MN'ers roughly the same, except with fighting. And he knows his opponents strengths, weaknesses, and abilities, so it's like giving Deep Blue access to Kasparov's thought processes.

Also keep in mind I gave Wolverin 3/10. I didn't say he can't win.
4 computers beat one.............


ya thats all nice and such, but wolverine has defeated namor in less then I think 7 pannels before. namor is easiliy apollo equal if not better

Originally posted by capt it up
4 computers beat one.............


ya thats all nice and such, but wolverine has defeated namor in less then I think 7 pannels before. namor is easiliy apollo equal if not better

Deep Blue beats 4 regular computers into the ground with a mallet.

He's not fighting Namor... And I'm sure DC would have something to say about that.

The fact remains, MN'er would be a step ahead of Wolverine the entire time. And enough slashes/bashes to the face and/or body, and Logan doesn't heal instantly...they'd take their tole pretty quickly. And if he can damage a guy who can take a volcano-lava bath, he can hurt Wolverine too.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Deep Blue beats 4 regular computers into the ground with a mallet.

He's not fighting Namor... And I'm sure DC would have something to say about that.

The fact remains, MN'er would be a step ahead of Wolverine the entire time. And enough slashes/bashes to the face and/or body, and Logan doesn't heal instantly...they'd take their tole pretty quickly. And if he can damage a guy who can take a volcano-lava bath, he can hurt Wolverine too.
DC might have some thing to say about IT BUT DC would ripp them all a new ass whole.


also namor is eaisliy more imprissive since he has far more feats to go on.


also I like to see what big blue beats 4 computers I realy doubt that. there also chess computer not normal ones.

also wolverine pritty much heals instantly most of the time.
also why would MN be be a steps a head of wolverine? from what ive seen his reflex and agility are deffently not logans superior.

Your analogy is a bit false. Yours with Wolverine is someone narrating his actions. Whereas MN'er can actually process thousands of strategies (i.e. many thousands of individual moves) in the opening seconds of a fight. Thus, he knows the best way to beat you in about a second, as well as everything you can do ability-wise. And computer-analogies aside, I don't think Wolverine can say anything near that.

...

I just realize I got sucked into a debate with capt about wolverine. This isn't going to end until I just leave, is it? Alright, how bout this. I'll go so far as to say 5/10 for both. But keep in mind, I don't hate Wolverine, and I'm willing to bet I've read more X-men/Wolverine stuff than you've read of the Authority....so my 7/10 for MN'er was trying to be fair. It wasn't hating on Logan.



-digimark out-

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Your analogy is a bit false. Yours with Wolverine is someone narrating his actions. Whereas MN'er can actually process thousands of strategies (i.e. many thousands of individual moves) in the opening seconds of a fight. Thus, he knows the best way to beat you in about a second, as well as everything you can do ability-wise. And computer-analogies aside, I don't think Wolverine can say anything near that.


Didn't seem to help him much when Regis pawned his ass...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Your analogy is a bit false. Yours with Wolverine is someone narrating his actions. Whereas MN'er can actually process thousands of strategies (i.e. many thousands of individual moves) in the opening seconds of a fight. Thus, he knows the best way to beat you in about a second, as well as everything you can do ability-wise. And computer-analogies aside, I don't think Wolverine can say anything near that.

...

I just realize I got sucked into a debate with capt about wolverine. This isn't going to end until I just leave, is it? Alright, how bout this. I'll go so far as to say 5/10 for both. But keep in mind, I don't hate Wolverine, and I'm willing to bet I've read more X-men/Wolverine stuff than you've read of the Authority....so my 7/10 for MN'er was trying to be fair. It wasn't hating on Logan.



-digimark out-
lol actauly I was just about to say that u could be totaly right in saying MN wins sicne I have not read enough on MN to fully under stand the characters abilties. also if proven wrong I admitt it I do not stay in matches when i clearly am beat.
also i could say the same about u when u debate about spiderman as u said about me debating about wolverine

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I just realize I got sucked into a debate with capt about wolverine. This isn't going to end until I just leave, is it?






midnighter sees this battle happening a thousand times in his head just looking at logan and then proceeds to book ass cause he's gonna be losing in every one of them.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Didn't seem to help him much when Regis pawned his ass...

Haha...yeah, the one time MN'er jobbed horribly. Can't really think of another time though, so it's kinda unfair to use that one example against him. Wolverine's had his share of both good and bad showings too.

I'd like to think the Regis thing was mild PIS so Jack could take him out (destroying the cities and people and whatnot gave him more cause). But you can use that against MN'er if you like...there's really not an explanation for it.



See, the difference is, I try to stay away from Spidey debates. I like to make my rep elsewhere so I'm not seen as a psycho Spidey-fanboy (which I'm sure I would be if I debated in enough threads...lol). The recent duel with jin was the only exception I can think of in a long while.

also seeing a battle in ur head does not mean u can carry it out. since MN knowledge on wolverine personality is non exsisting. he would not know how wolverine would react he just knows diffrerent senerios. knowing different scenerios does not make u win a battle, it will how ever tell u ur going to lose though lol.

wolverine would have to be written in the upper 10% of his potential to beat a jobbing midnighter. namor would not beat apollo. if you think that deathstroke would beat wolverine, midnighter would too.

midnighter 8/10

Originally posted by DigiMark007
). The recent duel with jin was the only exception I can think of in a long while.

and a magnificant duel it was.

Originally posted by manorastroman
wolverine would have to be written in the upper 10% of his potential to beat a jobbing midnighter. namor would not beat apollo. if you think that deathstroke would beat wolverine, midnighter would too.

midnighter 8/10

capt doesn't think that deathstroke would beat wolverine though.. hell he proved that that he wouldn't already...

Originally posted by manorastroman
wolverine would have to be written in the upper 10% of his potential to beat a jobbing midnighter. namor would not beat apollo. if you think that deathstroke would beat wolverine, midnighter would too.

midnighter 8/10
actauly absed on feats namor would beat apollo.

I don't think deathstroke would take logan.
so i don't see how u thinking deathstroke beats wolverine equals MN beating wwolverine since wolverine would more then liklybeat deathstroke.

why, why, oh why would wolverine beat deathstroke? what advantage does he have besides his claws, which deathstroke is plenty fast enough to deflect?

Originally posted by jinzin
capt doesn't think that deathstroke would beat wolverine though.. hell he proved that that he wouldn't already...

Originally posted by manorastroman
why, why, oh why would wolverine beat deathstroke? what advantage does he have besides his claws, which deathstroke is plenty fast enough to deflect?
this is not the thread for this PM me if u wanna know the reasons



also u just proved ur lack of knowledge in wolverines abilites

Originally posted by manorastroman
why, why, oh why would wolverine beat deathstroke? what advantage does he have besides his claws, which deathstroke is plenty fast enough to deflect?

He heals 1000 times faster, is just as fast, almost as strong, exponentially more skilled and with out prep DS has zero means to take down Wolverine

... I'm sure there are more reasons but those are good enough.

Bad example. MN'er is like DS 2.0....right idea, but Slade's still a notch below MN;er.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Bad example. MN'er is like DS 2.0....right idea, but Slade's still a notch below MN;er.
when has MN ever shown slade reflexes or agility?

Originally posted by jinzin
and a magnificant duel it was.

Indeed. Hopefully we both brought the other a touch closer to seeing the opposing viewpoint (I still stand by my claim(s), but you certainly made me believe it would be much closer than I once thought).

Originally posted by capt it up
when has MN ever shown slade reflexes or agility?

The question is, when hasn't he? It's hard to quantify speed, but I've seen MN'er drawn multiple times on a single panel while punking superhumans...the kind of speed drawing they normally reserve for the likes of Spider-Man or Quicksilver. That, and the ability to not get hit by Apollo with punches or heat-vision is enough of a speed feat for me. Apollo would be a good match for Namor by the way, and I'd give Apollo the win more often than not due to energy projection, since their speed/strength is probably similar, but I'd still give Apollo the edge in those. He's definitely a bit closer to herald than the water-dweller.

He caught an arrow once and he beat down a soldier who supposedly had super speed... othen that nada

Didn't Ord put Logan down for a good while with a gut slash?

yes he did. and did you just say that wolverine healed one thousand times faster? and that he is just as fast as deathstroke, mister superhuman thought process with reflexes as fast as he can think? stronger? exponentially more skilled?

i have an idea:

deathstroke heals 1000 times faster, is just as fast, almost as strong, exponentially more skilled and with out prep wolverine has zero means to take down deathstroke.

Originally posted by manorastroman
yes he did. and did you just say that wolverine healed one thousand times faster? and that he is just as fast as deathstroke, mister superhuman thought process with reflexes as fast as he can think? stronger? exponentially more skilled?

i have an idea:

deathstroke heals 1000 times faster, is just as fast, almost as strong, exponentially more skilled and with out prep wolverine has zero means to take down deathstroke.

The day DS regrows a new heart in three panels give me call.

Originally posted by manorastroman
yes he did. and did you just say that wolverine healed one thousand times faster? and that he is just as fast as deathstroke, mister superhuman thought process with reflexes as fast as he can think? stronger? exponentially more skilled?

i have an idea:

deathstroke heals 1000 times faster, is just as fast, almost as strong, exponentially more skilled and with out prep wolverine has zero means to take down deathstroke.


did u just say deathstroke heals 1000's times faster then wolverine? a guy who grow a new heart in 5 pannels?
wolverines healing factor is many tiems that of slade.


why would wolverine need prep to take slade?

also wolverine has superhuman reflexes and senses which can prodicted atatcks before they happen. so yes wolverine just as fast as slade. also wolverien deos not need to think to fight so that would put him faster then slade.

slade may be stornger then wolverine it hard to say.


wolverine is the more skileld fighter deffently. wolverine also has far more experience fighting as well.

alright for this slade wolverine nonsense...

wolverine's a better fighter
slades a stronger person
slade hasn't proven that he's be consistantly faster than wolverine... sure he's reacted to the likes of flash and wonderwoman but WW was depowered and flash was easily goaded into getting hit... the same way batman tricked flash into being tripped. but in terms of consistant h2h speeds.. his best feet is in crisis where he fights the JLA.... there's a lot of evidence that he COULD be faster than logan.. but that one occasion conflsics with MANY more occasions where he's been hit and contested by human beings or people of logans speed or slower.
logan definitely has a better healing factor..

senses are equal.. ds can see microscopic things, wolverine can sense incoming dangers before they arrive.

durability wise. ds has been put down by a stomp from superboy... wolverine's consistantly stood up to hulk

ds has toys.. not many of them will effect wolverine though...

all and all the only x factor in this fight is the speed issue... that could go either way.. but because wolverine can chop of DS limbs and not the other way around.. wolvie wins more often than not...

remember that a vast majority of DS' most impressive feats vs. big names are dealing with people he's already prepared for.

gimme a break. wolverine rarely does things like heal a heart in three panels and take shots from the hulk. 85% of the time he goes down healing from MUCH less. ord put him down for more than three panels with nothing but a gut-slice.

Originally posted by manorastroman
gimme a break. wolverine rarely does things like heal a heart in three panels and take shots from the hulk. 85% of the time he goes down healing from MUCH less. ord put him down for more than three panels with nothing but a gut-slice.
did u just say rarely does those kidna of showings? this is comming from a man who knows nuthing about wolverine and clearly shows it more and mroe with every post.

the orb incident when crap. it was far from the norm. that one of wolverines worse showing ever. but to be fair it likly it was poisoned with a special alien type drug that effected powers.

Originally posted by manorastroman
gimme a break. wolverine rarely does things like heal a heart in three panels and take shots from the hulk. 85% of the time he goes down healing from MUCH less. ord put him down for more than three panels with nothing but a gut-slice.

Considering I have read almost every Wolverine appearance listed in Wizard Magazines Ultimate Wolverine Appearance Guide and many more that aren't listed I think I might have a better idea what the normal level of Wolverine's healing factor then you do...

i've read virtually every wolverine issue since morrison's run. those are the relevant issues. i don't care about the seventies, eighties or nineties. characters change. deal with it, stagnation is unbecoming.

wolverine can take nukes then...

and heal from being beheaded


and heal his heart in 3 panals


you just kinda killed your own argument...

LMAO!

I try to stay way from using current Wolverine examples because people are convinced that they are so out of character based on what Wolverine has done in the passed because Marvel wants to appease the so called "Legions of Wolverine fanboys" (aka the half a dozen people on the forum who don't harbor an unnatural hatred for Wolverine).

Either way I can prove my point... so you just take your pick I guess

srank who's head is on superman in your sig?

Originally posted by manorastroman
i've read virtually every wolverine issue since morrison's run. those are the relevant issues. i don't care about the seventies, eighties or nineties. characters change. deal with it, stagnation is unbecoming.
did u honestly just say this? ur only come back to all my prove is that u personaly don't like it lol

wolverine 32 by mark miller wolveriene survive be heading not once but mulitable times

venom on the run 2. first wolverine heals from being pritty much just a skeleton.


venom on the run 3 wolverine heals from a nuke.

secret war 5 wolverine survive his heart explodeing.
http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=7d8c86d68ot.jpg

Originally posted by capt it up
did u just say rarely does those kidna of showings? this is comming from a man who knows nuthing about wolverine and clearly shows it more and mroe with every post.

the orb incident when crap. it was far from the norm. that one of wolverines worse showing ever. but to be fair it likly it was poisoned with a special alien type drug that effected powers.

Do you know for a fact, 100% sure, that the sword was poisoned with a "special alien type drug that effected powers"? Cuz that sounds like a clear assumption and wild speculation. Wolverine can be put down by something like that. It happens.

Originally posted by capt it up
4 computers beat one.............
That's only true if you know nothing about computers. Comparing computers from the early 90's, when I think Jinzin said that scan came from, to now is like comparing a Model-T to a... Dodge Viper or something.

Originally posted by jinzin
srank who's head is on superman in your sig?

Mine lol

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Rap sheet? What's a rap sheet?

And in the most recent Authority arc, MN'er can be seen single-handedly giving the rest of the team trouble. Hell, he was punking Apollo (see: Superman clone) before they got broken up by people who could actually beat MN'er.

And actually, he does heal faster than normal...but still much slower than Logan.

Still, MN'er takes one look at Logan, and knows exactly what he's capable of and how to beat him. He'll see the claws, the healing, the strength/reflexes...and probably won't be touched by Logan unless he wants to be. And he doesn't have qualms about killing.

He got plenty of sharp/hard stuff in his aresenal (think Batman if he ever went to the dark side), and while it wouldn't damage admantium, he'd mess up Logan's face & body something fierce. And based on more than a few feats, I'd put MN'er around the 3 to 5-ton strength range. Nothing special, but he's more about speed and tactics than about brute force.

...Wolverine has a chance to win this. But I'd give it to MN'er 7/10. And if you read Authority regularly, you'll know I'm being generous to Wolverine. He's definitely well above street level (not that Wolverine isn't, but still...).

IMO, he'll win if he's allowed to use the carriers 'Door' device, other wise i can't seem him killing Wolverine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... you don't know what a rapsheet is?

Anyway you say Apollo is a Superman clone like that some how means anything. What has Apollo ever done that puts him in the same league as Superman? Nothing. Apollo would be lucky to be considered the square root of Superman.

Like I said every single impressive thing MN has done has already been done by Sabretooth but almost always a notch above. Most of MN feats involve beating down second rate ripoffs of established characters... like that somehow makes him impressive.

'What has Apollo ever done that puts him in the same league as Superman? Nothing. Apollo would be lucky to be considered the square root of Superman.'

Agreed

'Like I said every single impressive thing MN has done has already been done by Sabretooth but almost always a notch above.'

Total Bollocks

'Most of MN feats involve beating down second rate ripoffs of established characters... like that somehow makes him impressive.'

Agreed.

Originally posted by capt it up
4 computers beat one.............


ya thats all nice and such, but wolverine has defeated namor in less then I think 7 pannels before. namor is easiliy apollo equal if not better

'Most of MN feats involve beating down second rate ripoffs of established characters... like that somehow makes him impressive.'

Absolute Bollocks .... Namor couldn't dream of being on a Appolo level. Itd put him on a Gladiator level at least.

He did sterilise the entire moon, with a Single blast. Thats power Namor couldn't dream of having.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Haha...yeah, the one time MN'er jobbed horribly. Can't really think of another time though, so it's kinda unfair to use that one example against him. Wolverine's had his share of both good and bad showings too.

I'd like to think the Regis thing was mild PIS so Jack could take him out (destroying the cities and people and whatnot gave him more cause). But you can use that against MN'er if you like...there's really not an explanation for it.



See, the difference is, I try to stay away from Spidey debates. I like to make my rep elsewhere so I'm not seen as a psycho Spidey-fanboy (which I'm sure I would be if I debated in enough threads...lol). The recent duel with jin was the only exception I can think of in a long while.

But Regis was a Telepath, he pretty much used Midknighters power against him. Its like a the other chess player, hacking into that Chess computer. I don't really see it as Jobbing, just good writing. I don't mind it when a superior character beats one of my favourites, I certainly don't consider it Jobbing.

I think that the usual problem with Wolverine "taking Class 100 hits" is not with Wolverine taking the punch, it's the guy punching. The punches are, in most cases, shown ridicolously lesser what they are actually capable of.

Originally posted by capt it up
also seeing a battle in ur head does not mean u can carry it out. since MN knowledge on wolverine personality is non exsisting. he would not know how wolverine would react he just knows diffrerent senerios. knowing different scenerios does not make u win a battle, it will how ever tell u ur going to lose though lol.

The computer uses a bodily scan to calculate the characters strengths a weaknesses. You'll be surprised what subconscious body language will tell a Super Computer.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I think that the usual problem with Wolverine "taking Class 100 hits" is not with Wolverine taking the punch, it's the guy punching. The punches are, in most cases, shown ridicolously lesser what they are actually capable of.

Buts its only his flesh that is taking any of the Impact. All the important stuff is protected by Adamantium. You don't unconscious because you re muscles hurt. !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Buts its only his flesh that is taking any of the Impact. All the important stuff is protected by Adamantium. You don't unconscious because you re muscles hurt. !


Lol yeah that much force in a punch should have Wolverine scooping up gobs of his intestines that are coming out of his ass and mouth lol.

Originally posted by Soleran
Lol yeah that much force in a punch should have Wolverine scooping up gobs of his intestines that are coming out of his ass and mouth lol.

Infact I think you''ll find that the Adamantium metal absorbs most of the concussive force.

"did u honestly just say this? ur only come back to all my prove is that u personaly don't like it lol"

what?

anyway, my point still stands. the majority of wolverine appearances from the last five years suggest a healing factor that midnighter could EASILY bypass. remember that werewolf guy that the Godhead employed to take out midnighter? "he makes alot of noise and heals really fast, but if i hit him lethally every couple of seconds he seems to stay down..."

same thing. that werewolf guy seemed AWFULLY similar to wolverine, and midnighter made a chump of him.

again, stagnation is unbecoming. wolverine is not the hulk assassin he once was.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Buts its only his flesh that is taking any of the Impact. All the important stuff is protected by Adamantium. You don't unconscious because you re muscles hurt. ! No, I mean that they should do much more damage to evironment and such. Plus adamantium doesn't absorb impact for all I know.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Infact I think you''ll find that the Adamantium metal absorbs most of the concussive force.


That would be vibranium from my understanding, not adamantium. So my point still stands, guts everywhere baby.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, I mean that they should do much more damage to evironment and such. Plus adamantium doesn't absorb impact for all I know.

Since when do comic book artist pay any significant notice to how much damage should be done to the environment ? If they did, Metropolis, New York, and the rest of the USA would long since been destroyed by immense Shock waves. The punch of a planet moving character, would have the strength of millions of nuclear bombs. Artist tend to ignore these technicality's, which is why you rarely ever seen any realistic Collateral damage. Like the writers, i suggest you ignore it.

Originally posted by Soleran
That would be vibranium from my understanding, not adamantium. So my point still stands, guts everywhere baby.

In fact i think you'll find most HARD comic substances (Including durable bodies and skin) have unusually large amounts of absorbing properties, hence my point about Collateral damage (See above). This is why one rarely sees that shock waves that should be prominent , when significantly hard punches connect.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Since when do comic book artist pay any significant notice to how much damage should be done to the environment ? If they did, Metropolis, New York, and the rest of the USA would long since been destroyed by immense Shock waves. The punch of a planet moving character, would have the strength of millions of nuclear bombs. Artist tend to ignore these technicality's, which is why you rarely ever seen any realistic Collateral damage. Like the writers, i suggest you ignore it.

All I am saying, if Hulk punches Wolverine or Superman punches Batman and nothing happens, it should not be considered "full power punch", since full power punches from Hulk and Superman have known to shatter asteroids. It's the same with other characters too.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
All I am saying, if Hulk punches Wolverine or Superman punches Batman and nothing happens, it should not be considered "full power punch", since full power punches from Hulk and Superman have known to shatter asteroids. It's the same with other characters too.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
All I am saying, if Hulk punches Wolverine or Superman punches Batman and nothing happens, it should not be considered "full power punch", since full power punches from Hulk and Superman have known to shatter asteroids. It's the same with other characters too.

No not FULL power, but certainly close to FULL power. Large objects such as Asteroids are only shattered when the character punch them, directly. They are rarely seen to be destroyed as a side effect of the punches.

The Batman case is a complicated one (You're talking about the recent 'Sacrifice incident, i presume)

IMO, if there is no obviously plot induced incident for the character to hold back, we can safely say the character is trying to hit them hard.

Its illogical to presume the character has held back because of lack of collateral damage, as writers tend to ignore the realistic effects of powerful punches, on the surrounding environment.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
No not FULL power, but certainly close to FULL power. Large objects such as Asteroids are only shattered when the character punch them, directly. They are rarely seen to be destroyed as a side effect of the punches.

The Batman case is a complicated one (You're talking about the recent 'Sacrifice incident, i presume)

IMO, if there is no obviously plot induced incident for the character to hold back, we can safely say the character is trying to hit them hard.

Its illogical to presume the character has held back because of lack of collateral damage, as writers tend to ignore the realistic effects of powerful punches, on the surrounding environment.

Originally posted by Soleran


Sorry my friend, but you silly faces are not going to gain my respect, especially seeing as you have a caption stating that you are as fast as time.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
No not FULL power, but certainly close to FULL power. Large objects such as Asteroids are only shattered when the character punch them, directly. They are rarely seen to be destroyed as a side effect of the punches.

The Batman case is a complicated one (You're talking about the recent 'Sacrifice incident, i presume)

IMO, if there is no obviously plot induced incident for the character to hold back, we can safely say the character is trying to hit them hard.

Its illogical to presume the character has held back because of lack of collateral damage, as writers tend to ignore the realistic effects of powerful punches, on the surrounding environment.




stay yahman!

Originally posted by leonidas



stay yahman!

Do you agree Leo ?

B.T.W. im about too loose my Sig Virginity, as well. S.S. is currently popping my cherry !!!!!!!!

cool! sig's are fun. and yes i do agree with what you're saying. i've said similar things in the past.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Sorry my friend, but you silly faces are not going to gain my respect, especially seeing as you have a caption stating that you are as fast as time.


I'll keep that in mind as I post on a comic vs forum, also my opinion has been stated on this already several times..................rules of the forum say the contrary to your belief.

Originally posted by Soleran
I'll keep that in mind as I post on a comic vs forum, also my opinion has been stated on this already several times..................rules of the forum say the contrary to your belief.

What rule ?????

If Wolverine's adamantium bones absorbed the impact of the blows that's mean the inside of his bones are safe. The rest should be shreaded on his own skeleton like pushing a piece of cheese through a metal grate.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
What rule ?????


No Mentioning Events of PIS

Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.


"If Wolverine's adamantium bones absorbed the impact of the blows that's mean the inside of his bones are safe. The rest should be shreaded on his own skeleton like pushing a piece of cheese through a metal grate."



I am fast as time, thats a fact.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
If Wolverine's adamantium bones absorbed the impact of the blows that's mean the inside of his bones are safe. The rest should be shreaded on his own skeleton like pushing a piece of cheese through a metal grate.

Agreed ... but that would cause Censorship problems wouldn't it ?

this is what always happens when someone tries to apply real world science and real world cause and effects to comicbooks. many things likely SHOULD happen to wolvie as a cl100 hits him. thing is . . . they don't. then we're left floundering for excuses. is yahman's explanation any less sensible than saying everything is pis or all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?

i don't think so. forget real world, look what the evidence on panel says.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is what always happens when someone tries to apply real world science and real world cause and effects to comicbooks. many things likely SHOULD happen to wolvie as a cl100 hits him. thing is . . . they don't. then we're left floundering for excuses. is yahman's explanation any less sensible than saying everything is pis or all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?

i don't think so. forget real world, look what the evidence on panel says.


I agree with that but for discussions on the BOARD, not in comics characters should be shown at their best in vs matches and not some jabrony limp version against some characters because otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

Midnighter anticipates Wolverine's attack , tenses up to move aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand........gets stabbed to death.

Wolverines the best at what he does. And what he does is **** with the laws of comic book science.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is what always happens when someone tries to apply real world science and real world cause and effects to comicbooks. many things likely SHOULD happen to wolvie as a cl100 hits him. thing is . . . they don't. then we're left floundering for excuses. is yahman's explanation any less sensible than saying everything is pis or all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?

i don't think so. forget real world, look what the evidence on panel says.


'all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?'

Exactly, the characters are in evident danger, why hold back? .... Instead of making up biased excuses that favour opinions, try and look at it from the writers perspective. In most cases there are reoccurring themes.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?'

Exactly, the characters are in evident danger, why hold back? .... Instead of making up biased excuses that favour opinions, try and look at it from the writers perspective. In most cases there are reoccurring themes.

cheers

Originally posted by grey fox
Midnighter anticipates Wolverine's attack , tenses up to move aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand........gets stabbed to death.

Wolverines the best at what he does. And what he does is **** with the laws of comic book science.

But its not just Wolverine .... Its writers in general, no offense to them, but they are writing comics for a reason !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?'

Exactly, the characters are in evident danger, why hold back? .... Instead of making up biased excuses that favour opinions, try and look at it from the writers perspective. In most cases there are reoccurring themes.


Alright but on the board in the VS forum I don't need a writers vision to see what has been done in the past

I don't foresee Midnighter being able to put Wolverine down without use of something beyond his typical tools, maybe if he has a building collapse on him.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is what always happens when someone tries to apply real world science and real world cause and effects to comicbooks. many things likely SHOULD happen to wolvie as a cl100 hits him. thing is . . . they don't. then we're left floundering for excuses. is yahman's explanation any less sensible than saying everything is pis or all cl100s 'hold back' against a guy who could kill most with one well placed claw into the brain?

i don't think so. forget real world, look what the evidence on panel says.

Full power hit from a guy who can lift 1000000000 tons shouldn't do less or equal damage to someone who can barely lift one. I just find it ridicolous to accept that a bullet can go through Wolverine, but something that is faster and more durable then a bullet doesn't...

And what do you do with the times that Class 100 punches work like they should? Disregard the realistic thing? We can of course choose majority, and I bet my ass that I can find more pictures of etc. Namor moving, breaking or affecting something far more durable and heavier then Wolverine with full power punches then not affecting something like that.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Full power hit from a guy who can lift 1000000000 tons shouldn't do less or equal damage to someone who can barely lift one. I just find it ridiculous to accept that a bullet can go through Wolverine, but something that is faster and more durable then a bullet doesn't...

And what do you do with the times that Class 100 punches work like they should? Disregard the realistic thing? We can of course choose majority, and I bet my ass that I can find more pictures of etc. Namor moving, breaking or affecting something far more durable and heavier then Wolverine with full power punches then not affecting something like that.

'Full power hit from a guy who can lift 1000000000 tons shouldn't do less or equal damage to someone who can barely lift one. I just find it ridiculous to accept that a bullet can go through Wolverine, but something that is faster and more durable then a bullet doesn't...'

No... the character/metal is absorbing the concussive force. Therefore it has to work harder when facing a Class 100 punch, but very few characters, if any, can punch through the adamantium. Mate there is little point in applying half ass science to the scenario, because writers rarely ever do !


'And what do you do with the times that Class 100 punches work like they should? Disregard the realistic thing? We can of course choose majority, and I bet my ass that I can find more pictures of etc. Namor moving, breaking or affecting something far more durable and heavier then Wolverine with full power punches then not affecting something like that.'

This is all based on writers interpretation, but i doubt there are ANY incidents when a totally realistic Shock wave/collateral damage effect has been illustrated.

Originally posted by Soleran
Alright but on the board in the VS forum I don't need a writers vision to see what has been done in the past

I don't foresee Midnighter being able to put Wolverine down without use of something beyond his typical tools, maybe if he has a building collapse on him.

I agree, but, like usual, the topic has strayed away from the original debate. Leo, Darkcrawler and I am now debating about a slightly diffrenet subject.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'Full power hit from a guy who can lift 1000000000 tons shouldn't do less or equal damage to someone who can barely lift one. I just find it ridiculous to accept that a bullet can go through Wolverine, but something that is faster and more durable then a bullet doesn't...'

No... the character/metal is absorbing the concussive force. Therefore it has to work harder when facing a Class 100 punch, but very few characters, if any, can punch through the adamantium. Mate there is little point in applying half ass science to the scenario, because writers rarely ever do !

What if he was punched somewhere where there is no adamantium...?

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
'And what do you do with the times that Class 100 punches work like they should? Disregard the realistic thing? We can of course choose majority, and I bet my ass that I can find more pictures of etc. Namor moving, breaking or affecting something far more durable and heavier then Wolverine with full power punches then not affecting something like that.'

This is all based on writers interpretation, but i doubt there are ANY incidents when a totally realistic Shock wave/collateral damage effect has been illustrated.

Sure there are.
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6122/namorfeat966tw.gif
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5364/namorfeat177fq.gif
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9995/namorfeat255ii.gif
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/886/namorfeat973kv.gif
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor21dj.gif
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30815313047.gif&s=x11
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat853hz.gif

90% of those aren't even his full power punches.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
What if he was punched somewhere where there is no adamantium...?



Sure there are.
http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6122/namorfeat966tw.gif
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5364/namorfeat177fq.gif
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9995/namorfeat255ii.gif
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/886/namorfeat973kv.gif
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg
http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor21dj.gif
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30815313047.gif&s=x11
http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat853hz.gif

90% of those aren't even his full power punches.

With exception of the Hulk fight, all the scans kind of prove my point. Where the character punches the object directly, damage is caused, but in most cases it isn't a realistic depiction of Namors scientific strength. In the cases where Namor has hit characters, not nearly enough realistic shock wave/collateral damage is caused to the surrounding environment.

The Hulk and Namor fight does gives a realistic depiction of the forces produced, but note that this fight has been drawn by one artist. Just because he's decided to emphasise the scientifically plausible power of the two characters, doesn't contradict the fact that most other artists tend to ignore this.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
With exception of the Hulk fight, all the scans kind of prove my point. Where the character punches the object directly, damage is caused, but in most cases it isn't a realistic depiction of Namors scientific strength. In the cases where Namor has hit characters, not nearly enough realistic shock wave/collateral damage is caused to the surrounding environment.

The Hulk and Namor fight does gives a realistic depiction of the forces produced, but note that this fight has been drawn by one artist. Just because he's decided to emphasise the scientifically plausible power of the two characters, doesn't contradict the fact that most other artists tend to ignore this.

If he isn't hitting them with full force punch, it's realistic. I doubt that he would unleash a Hulk-knocking-island-quivering punch on every villain and thing he fights...the guys/objects are durable enough to take the punch without shattering but still move by the force of punch...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
If he isn't hitting them with full force punch, it's realistic. I doubt that he would unleash a Hulk-knocking-island-quivering punch on every villain and thing he fights...the guys/objects are durable enough to take the punch without shattering but still move by the force of punch...

Think about it D.C. !!!!!!! youre suggesting that when he hits everyone else except the Hulk (In that one example) he's using literally 0.001 of his full strength ? That totally illogical !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Leo, Darkcrawler and I am now debating about a slightly diffrenet subject.




"Think about it D.C. !!!!!!! youre suggesting that when he hits everyone else except the Hulk (In that one example) he's using literally 0.001 of his full strength ? That totally illogical !"

Its a comic and its a strong showing, something that DC has been illustrating for use on this board now for sometime. I'm sorry earlier you were attempting to throw science out the window for comics but now you want to use logic in your disucssions

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Think about it D.C. !!!!!!! youre suggesting that when he hits everyone else except the Hulk (In that one example) he's using literally 0.001 of his full strength ? That totally illogical !
I'd hold back if I was him...Namor's not a killer. You truly are suggesting that he would punch etc. Daredevil with his full strength?

Him punching everything with full strength...now thats illogical.

Originally posted by Soleran


Its a pity your vocabulary doesn't have the range of your silly faces ?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Full power hit from a guy who can lift 1000000000 tons shouldn't do less or equal damage to someone who can barely lift one. I just find it ridicolous to accept that a bullet can go through Wolverine, but something that is faster and more durable then a bullet doesn't...

And what do you do with the times that Class 100 punches work like they should? Disregard the realistic thing? We can of course choose majority, and I bet my ass that I can find more pictures of etc. Namor moving, breaking or affecting something far more durable and heavier then Wolverine with full power punches then not affecting something like that.

you seem to be insisting that wolvie's durability is an issue. he has proven quite conclusively to be enormously resistant to injury. his strength level is independent of his durability so i'm not sure i see your comparison dc. and don't forget -- recently even THOR has been ko'd by a bullet!

as for the 'realistic hits'. there is an undeniable conflict there. perhaps wolverine instinctively rolls with hits? perhaps his adamantium is absorbing some of the shock and his healing does the rest? spidey deals with similar issues. as does batman. as do most street levellers when they fight cl100 opponents. it just doesn't make sense to ignore what is on panel time and time again. as a result we are forced to try and fashion some all-encompassing explanation to explain it.

yahman's right about one thing -- it's a comic book. the only evidence in that sens eis what we see consistently in comics. explain it however you'd like. it doesn't change what has happened time and time again.

diffrenet


ok thanks

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I'd hold back if I was him...Namor's not a killer. You truly are suggesting that he would punch etc. Daredevil with his full strength?

Him punching everything with full strength...now thats illogical.

Since when where we talking about Dare Devil? And since when has Dare Devil had an Adamantium skeleton/shield, healing factor or level 6 durability ?

My previous post was referring to characters a lot more durable than Daredevil my friend, as where yours. Why change the focus ?

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Since when where we talking about Dare Devil? And since when has Dare Devil had an Adamantium skeleton/shield, healing factor or level 6 durability ?

My previous post was referring to characters a lot more durable than Daredevil my friend, as where yours. Why change the focus ?

Doubt that he would punch a small, hairy man with full strength either. At their first meeting, he didn't know who Wolverine was (hence not clearly unleashing his all strength at him, he was basically on defensive for the first few pages), and at their second meeting, he was depicted as a retarted pacifist who was struggling to lift a half a ton girder anyway, so he was pretty much holding back.

Originally posted by Soleran


"Think about it D.C. !!!!!!! youre suggesting that when he hits everyone else except the Hulk (In that one example) he's using literally 0.001 of his full strength ? That totally illogical !"

Its a comic and its a strong showing, something that DC has been illustrating for use on this board now for sometime. I'm sorry earlier you were attempting to throw science out the window for comics but now you want to use logic in your disucssions

Mate don't get me started on the subject of rationality and logistics and its association with science. Most philosophers (inculding Plato, Kant and Hick) would suggest that the two are quite indifferent of each other.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Doubt that he would punch a small, hairy man with full strength either. At their first meeting, he didn't know who Wolverine was (hence not clearly unleashing his all strength at him,.

But the writer knew ! Its not my fault he didn't take realistic perspective of the incident.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Mate don't get me started on the subject of rationality and logistics and its association with science. Most philosophers (inculding Plato, Kant and Hick) would suggest that the two are quite indifferent of each other.


It doesn't matter, the point is that its not the tool I am mocking its the idea of its use in comics is what I am laughing at. Your way to justify is silly and I am not so much talking about the comics in as much as how they are applied to use on the forum.

Hulk survives a nuclear explosion at ground zero and yet Wolverine is some sort of threat to him etc etc

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
But the writer knew ! Its not my fault he didn't take realistic perspective of the incident. And, as Namor didn't know who the hell Wolverine is according to continuity, writer wrote him and artist depicted him as clearly holding back (trying to tie him with ropes, etc.)...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And, as Namor didn't know who the hell Wolverine is according to continuity, writer wrote him and artist depicted him as clearly holding back (trying to tie him with ropes, etc.)...

Well he'd be crushing a lot of Wolverine fanboys hearts, if he had Namor punching him miles away, like a realistic depiction of his strength would demonstrate.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Well he'd be crushing a lot of Wolverine fanboys hearts, if he had Namor punching him miles away, like a realistic depiction of his strength would demonstrate.

He sure would. Unfortunately he's never used his full strength against Wolverine...

Originally posted by Soleran
It doesn't matter, the point is that its not the tool I am mocking its the idea of its use in comics is what I am laughing at. Your way to justify is silly and I am not so much talking about the comics in as much as how they are applied to use on the forum.

Hulk survives a nuclear explosion at ground zero and yet Wolverine is some sort of threat to him etc etc

Now once again lets us ignore what Should scientifically happen, and concentrate on how Wolverine claws are generally depicted by artists and comic book writers.

Now look at it from my perspective:

His claws have cut off King Thor's arm b4. King Thor is generally accepted as more durable than the Hulk, and therefore his claws will penetrate him. If Sir Isaac Newton was writing comics, you'd probably find more realistic interpretation, of what would really happen. But the general creativity of the stories would probably amount to little more than stories about apples falling off trees, onto characters heads.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman

Now look at it from my perspective:

His claws have cut off King Thor's arm b4. King Thor is generally accepted as more durable than the Hulk, and therefore his claws will penetrate him. If Sir Isaac Newton was writing comics, you'd probably find more realistic interpretation, of what would really happen. But the general creativity of the stories would probably amount to little more than stories about apples falling off trees, onto characters heads.

Yeah ok and we have seen Captain America knock him around and out as well I wouldn't say that puts his durability up there with Hulk's, I would call those PIS showings.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He sure would. Unfortunately he's never used his full strength against Wolverine...

My point is, he would only have to use a tiny fraction of his strength, to achieve this. I'm talking about .001 of his full strength !

Why would he be using such a small fraction, when he could easily use more, without killing Wolverine.

Originally posted by Soleran
Yeah ok and we have seen Captain America knock him around and out as well I wouldn't say that puts his durability up there with Hulk's, I would call those PIS showings.

So Cap is more powerful than a Nuke, cos King Thor has survived nukes on two occasions. Oh yeah and the Destroyers disintergrator beam.

Once again another example of the writers ignoring the effects of real science .... I suggest you two do the same !!!!!

Or maybe King Thor was just letting Cap push him over because he wasn't taking the scenario seriously ?

I would call those PIS showings.

Once again the rules for the vs forum, they are your friend.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
My point is, he would only have to use a tiny fraction of his strength, to achieve this. I'm talking about .001 of his full strength !

Why would he be using such a small fraction, when he could easily use more, without killing Wolverine.

Because he isn't aware of how durable Wolverine is? I don't know why writers and artists depicted him using a fraction of his powers, but he clearly is.

Originally posted by Soleran
I would call those PIS showings.

Once again the rules for the vs forum, they are your friend.

Do these rules state, if not enough realistic damage is inflicted upon the environment by the characters punch, then punch in question, is not at full strength ?

Or does it say that the events are disregarded due to PIS.

If that is the case ,then ALL fights should be regarded as PIS, which is ludicrous.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Because he isn't aware of how durable Wolverine is? I don't know why writers and artists depicted him using a fraction of his powers, but he clearly is.

So when ever anyone with Class 100 strength has punched wolverine, they have only used 0.001 of their strength ?

Wooow its seems like all Class 100 characters are morons !

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Do these rules state, if not enough realistic damage is inflicted upon the environment by the characters punch, then punch in question, is not at full strength ?




Twist and spiral, I posted the rule for you on a previous page. You seem like an intelligent enough chap. Read it again and draw your own conclusion.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
So when ever anyone with Class 100 strength has punched wolverine, they have only used 0.001 of their strength ?

Wooow its seems like all Class 100 characters are morons !

I guess, if it's moronic to avoid killing people. And I am not saying that he's supposed to go fly miles in every issue...SOMETHING must be sacrificed for a story...but Class 100 punches should hurt him way more if they are truly full power punches (which they usually aren't).

Him taking Class 100 punch like it is Class 1 punch = not realistic. And only time I have seen him take a punch like that from Hulk is when he was Death...

If Namor's punches didn't do any more damage then a punch from someone like Daredevil/Spider-Man/Captain America, he's holding back. Like both issues clearly show.

Originally posted by Soleran
Twist and spiral, I posted the rule for you on a previous page. You seem like an intelligent enough chap. Read it again and draw your own conclusion.

Sorry mate, i cant find it, you'll have to post it again.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I guess, if it's moronic to avoid killing people. And I am not saying that he's supposed to go fly miles in every issue...SOMETHING must be sacrificed for a story...but Class 100 punches should hurt him way more if they are truly full power punches (which they usually aren't).

Him taking Class 100 punch like it is Class 1 punch = not realistic. And only time I have seen him take a punch like that from Hulk is when he was Death...

If Namor's punches didn't do any more damage then a punch from someone like Daredevil/Spider-Man/Captain America, he's holding back. Like both issues clearly show.

Agreed, this shouldn't be the case, but its likely to be casued by writers lack of scientific knowledge.

Originally posted by leonidas
you seem to be insisting that wolvie's durability is an issue. he has proven quite conclusively to be enormously resistant to injury. his strength level is independent of his durability so i'm not sure i see your comparison dc. and don't forget -- recently even THOR has been ko'd by a bullet!

as for the 'realistic hits'. there is an undeniable conflict there. perhaps wolverine instinctively rolls with hits? perhaps his adamantium is absorbing some of the shock and his healing does the rest? spidey deals with similar issues. as does batman. as do most street levellers when they fight cl100 opponents. it just doesn't make sense to ignore what is on panel time and time again. as a result we are forced to try and fashion some all-encompassing explanation to explain it.

yahman's right about one thing -- it's a comic book. the only evidence in that sens eis what we see consistently in comics. explain it however you'd like. it doesn't change what has happened time and time again.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Sorry mate, i cant find it, you'll have to post it again.

Woops your bad then..............

Originally posted by leonidas


Hmmmmmm .... One thing heh ?

'Woops your bad then..............'

Ok, you are now officially on my FLAMING list ....

Thor being knocked out by a bullet is pretty crappy writing, though. And what about his durability? Sure, he can survive one blow because he can heal from it.



Or perhaps characters only hit Wolverine with full force when he flies? Hit A = Wolverine doesn't fly and suffers less injuries. Hit B = Wolverine flies. Common sense tells us that the Hit B was more powerful...now apply that sense here...

Hit A = Namor hits thing that weighs 500 pounds, moving it one feet backwards. Hit B = Namor hits thing that weights ten thousand tons and topples it, moving it about 100 feet backwards.

Again, common sense tells us that Hit B is far more powerful hit. Another thing that tells that are sound effects, artistic depiction, etc...

Now here are two pictures. Using the simple examples shown above, try to depict which hit had more force behind it?

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7308/hita1mk.gif
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/954/hitb4pn.gif

Hit A OR Hit B?



What has happened is Wolverine taking punches from characters clearly not punching him with full strength. I accept that.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Thor being knocked out by a bullet is pretty crappy writing, though. And what about his durability? Sure, he can survive one blow because he can heal from it.



Or perhaps characters only hit Wolverine with full force when he flies? Hit A = Wolverine doesn't fly and suffers less injuries. Hit B = Wolverine flies. Common sense tells us that the Hit B was more powerful...now apply that sense here...

Hit A = Namor hits thing that weighs 500 pounds, moving it one feet backwards. Hit B = Namor hits thing that weights ten thousand tons and topples it, moving it about 100 feet backwards.

Again, common sense tells us that Hit B is far more powerful hit. Another thing that tells that are sound effects, artistic depiction, etc...

Now here are two pictures. Using the simple examples shown above, try to depict which hit had more force behind it?

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7308/hita1mk.gif
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/954/hitb4pn.gif

Hit A OR Hit B?



What has happened is Wolverine taking punches from characters clearly not punching him with full strength. I accept that.

Ok .... but he can still take the punches, wether he flies or not.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Ok .... but he can still take the punches, wether he flies or not.

Sure if Namor punches him one time and leaves him there to heal (Class 100 usually do, for some odd reason)...

Multiple times in short time?
http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/4242/wolverinehits88qa.gif
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3192/wolverinehits10qj.gif

it's possible. it just doesn't make any more real sense than any other posited notion. that means what: that anytime someone ISN'T sent flying by a punch thrown by a cl100 that the cl100 was holding back? ANY character's weight (MOST characters weight . . .) is insignificant compared to what a cl100 can move or the force they can apply. they should spend all their time chasing after each other after every punch. it's not a matter of durability, but of mass. thor punches hulk he should end up miles away every time, unless hulk's holding back.

i don't know dc. just doesn't work for me.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's possible. it just doesn't make any more real sense than any other posited notion. that means what: that anytime someone ISN'T sent flying by a punch thrown by a cl100 that the cl100 was holding back? ANY character's weight (MOST characters weight . . .) is insignificant compared to what a cl100 can move or the force they can apply. they should spend all their time chasing after each other after every punch. it's not a matter of durability, but of mass. thor punches hulk he should end up miles away every time, unless hulk's holding back.

i don't know dc. just doesn't work for me.

Assuming that every punch from Namor does the same damage as Spider-Man or Daredevil in Versus fights doesn't work for me.

Like I said, I can accept that they are not sent back. I can't accept that they do the same damage as a character hundreds of thousands times weaker.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's possible. it just doesn't make any more real sense than any other posited notion. that means what: that anytime someone ISN'T sent flying by a punch thrown by a cl100 that the cl100 was holding back? ANY character's weight (MOST characters weight . . .) is insignificant compared to what a cl100 can move or the force they can apply. they should spend all their time chasing after each other after every punch. it's not a matter of durability, but of mass. thor punches hulk he should end up miles away every time, unless hulk's holding back.

i don't know dc. just doesn't work for me.

Agreed .... D.C. mate, you've prooved me wrong with that pic. But in the majority of cases my original point suffices.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
But Regis was a Telepath, he pretty much used Midknighters power against him. Its like a the other chess player, hacking into that Chess computer. I don't really see it as Jobbing, just good writing. I don't mind it when a superior character beats one of my favourites, I certainly don't consider it Jobbing.

Forgot he was a telepath.

Originally posted by leonidas

yahman's right about one thing -- it's a comic book. the only evidence in that sens eis what we see consistently in comics. explain it however you'd like. it doesn't change what has happened time and time again.

exactly...

this is ridiculous trying to pass off that class 100's hold back on wolverine.. ESPECIALLY the hulk...

when hulk says "HULK SMASH LITTLE MAN!"
we can grasp a few facts from this, first, hulk isn't concerned with logan's well-being, and that hulk probably wants wolverine gone as soon as possible... but he still fails to KO logan on most occasions... if logan can cansistantly stand up from a beast like hulk intent on "smashing him" I can't see how anyone can argue that wolverine can't take full on class 100 punches....

similarly... wendigo doesn't hold back on wolverine
nor did sasquatch when he was possessed.


how we can continue to argue about wolverine's ability to take full on punches from class 100's is clearly beyond me at this point.. these consistant excuses that DC keeps bringing up are nothing more than that, excuses... wolverine's done it in the past against characters NOT HOLDING BACK, and he's done it on a (too) fairly consistant basis to pass it off as a fluke, and he'll probably do it again...

sorry DC namor showedd no indications of holding back.. like it or not.. you can come up with as many excuses as you'd like.. doesn't change the fact that namor picked up a weapon on both occasions to hit logan with.. pretty decent indication of NOT hold back IMO.. and it makes more sense that's consistant with FACTS than the crap you're spewing...

Originally posted by jinzin
exactly...

this is ridiculous trying to pass off that class 100's hold back on wolverine.. ESPECIALLY the hulk...

when hulk says "HULK SMASH LITTLE MAN!"
we can grasp a few facts from this, first, hulk isn't concerned with logan's well-being, and that hulk probably wants wolverine gone as soon as possible... but he still fails to KO logan on most occasions... if logan can cansistantly stand up from a beast like hulk intent on "smashing him" I can't see how anyone can argue that wolverine can't take full on class 100 punches....

similarly... wendigo doesn't hold back on wolverine
nor did sasquatch when he was possessed.


how we can continue to argue about wolverine's ability to take full on punches from class 100's is clearly beyond me at this point.. these consistant excuses that DC keeps bringing up are nothing more than that, excuses... wolverine's done it in the past against characters NOT HOLDING BACK, and he's done it on a (too) fairly consistant basis to pass it off as a fluke, and he'll probably do it again...

sorry DC namor showedd no indications of holding back.. like it or not.. you can come up with as many excuses as you'd like.. doesn't change the fact that namor picked up a weapon on both occasions to hit logan with.. pretty decent indication of NOT hold back IMO.. and it makes more sense that's consistant with FACTS than the crap you're spewing...

Never said that he can't take them...

I have always said that he can take them AS LONG AS HE'S GIVEN TIME TO HEAL. If not, his healing factor is overloaded and he goes down.

And I guess that hovering peacefully in the air, not even getting in real fisticuffs in first three pages or trying to tie someone with a rope is Namor fighting fully powered to you. That's okay. You have funny way of seeing things, I've noticed it.

But Namor holds back on weaker people. That is a fact.

Iron Man = His equal = Not holding back:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7308/hita1mk.gif

Wolverine = Far from his equal = Holding back:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/954/hitb4pn.gif

Want to see more of this kind of comparisions?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Never said that he can't take them...

I have always said that he can take them AS LONG AS HE'S GIVEN TIME TO HEAL. If not, his healing factor is overloaded and he goes down.

And I guess that hovering peacefully in the air, not even getting in real fisticuffs in first three pages or trying to tie someone with a rope is Namor fighting fully powered to you. That's okay. You have funny way of seeing things, I've noticed it.

But Namor holds back on weaker people. That is a fact.

you implied it by your argument for wolverine's not flying equating to characters holding back on him.. if you hadn't implied such this thread wouldn't have entered a discussion like this.

and namor hovering really doesn't mean a whole lot.. he thought wolverine was down.. wolverine "looked" down.. problem was.. wolverine wasn't down.. no
as for the rope? tie him up? I don't see that... I see namor trying to throw wolverine who's on the other end.. and it's a vine not a rope...

looks like you're the one with a funny way of seeing things.. but whateva...

again your examples are kinda bunk...

doomsday and superman don't send eathother accross continents when they were brawling blow for blow in metropolis.. the must have been holding back..

savage hulk and onslaught weren't sending eachother miles into the air with their blows.. man those guys were taking it easy... pffft..

but dc, i could easily post a bunch of scans where namor is fighting someone very close to his equal or better where they do NOT go flying. not sure what the comparison really proves as there are many many examples that might contradict it.

I don't care how many examples he has.. the fact that two of the most widely significant hit for hit brawls had 4 of both dc and marvel's physically strongest characters NOT flying miles kinda sends his whole argument into the toilet as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by jinzin
you implied it by your argument for wolverine's not flying equating to characters holding back on him.. if you hadn't implied such this thread wouldn't have entered a discussion like this.

Flying isn't the only thing. The concussion force isn't nearly as hard as some punches Namor has made. Example:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30815313047.gif&s=x11

He's holding back on Wolverine.

Originally posted by jinzin
and namor hovering really doesn't mean a whole lot.. he thought wolverine was down.. wolverine "looked" down.. problem was.. wolverine wasn't down.. no

Hovering AND TALKING TO HIM PEACEFULLY, AFTER he had risen up, AND AFTER he had KILLED HIS ADVISOR.

You seem to miss lot of parts. Also there is the whole struggling with the girder thing ("unhh!"

Originally posted by jinzin
as for the rope? tie him up? I don't see that... I see namor trying to throw wolverine who's on the other end.. and it's a vine not a rope...

Yeah, he's trying to throw him away, my mistake. But, for some reason, he's simply trying to keep Wolverine away for the first three pages, evading him...moving him with rope...going defensive...oh yeah, what's the another word for that? Right. Holding back.

Originally posted by jinzin
looks like you're the one with a funny way of seeing things.. but whateva...

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't care how many examples he has.. the fact that two of the most widely significant hit for hit brawls had 4 of both dc and marvel's physically strongest characters NOT flying miles kinda sends his whole argument into the toilet as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by leonidas
but dc, i could easily post a bunch of scans where namor is fighting someone very close to his equal or better where they do NOT go flying. not sure what the comparison really proves as there are many many examples that might contradict it.

And like I have said for the rest few pages, flying is not the only thing that can show the force of the punch.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And like I have said for the rest few pages, flying is not the only thing that can show the force of the punch.

but your other factors are not always present either. but for clarity, what ARE the other factors that show the force of a punch? i know you mentioned concussive force (manifest as shockwaves, perhaps?) and maybe collateral damage. is there something i missed?

Originally posted by leonidas
but your other factors are not always present either. but for clarity, what ARE the other factors that show the force of a punch? i know you mentioned concussive force (manifest as shockwaves, perhaps?) and maybe collateral damage. is there something i missed? The damage done to things he punches...? If he punches Wolverine/Daredevil/Spider-Man, and their brains don't splatter to walls, thats him holding back to me...the likes of Thor and Hulk are durable enough so he can wail them as much as he wants.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Flying isn't the only thing. The concussion force isn't nearly as hard as some punches Namor has made. Example:
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30815313047.gif&s=x11
He's holding back on Wolverine.
no but he picks up a bat to ht wolvie with anyways?



Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Hovering AND TALKING TO HIM PEACEFULLY, AFTER he had risen up, AND AFTER he had KILLED HIS ADVISOR.

he's out there hovering while wolverine's down.. then wolverine gets up... and he's still there..

again.. if we're going to rationaliza into this as deep as you have is it inplausible that namor was considering superhero relations and the conflicts that might arrise if he continues the fight?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You seem to miss lot of parts. Also there is the whole struggling with the girder thing ("unhh!". same kinda noise i make when swinging a baseball bat..



Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah, he's trying to throw him away, my mistake. But, for some reason, he's simply trying to keep Wolverine away for the first three pages, evading him...moving him with rope...going defensive...oh yeah, what's the another word for that? Right. Holding back.
Orrrrrrrrrrrr he rolled with the claws as not to get gutting like in new invaders and cause wolverine lunged at him he ended up behind wolverine and used the vine to his advantage..

dd i would agree with, dc. spidey otoh has taken some HUGE shots, so i don't think it pis if spidey didn't get . . . splattered. the one who would likely fare best is wolvie. spidey pounded mercilessly on his head AGAINST stone! and wolvie smiled through it. adamantium skull=no splattered brains. are you contending that ALL cl100s hold back against him?

To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

Originally posted by jinzin
no but he picks up a bat to ht wolvie with anyways?

It look like to me that he was tired of holding back on Wolverine...he finally actually attacked him there...

Originally posted by jinzin
he's out there hovering while wolverine's down.. then wolverine gets up... and he's still there..

Yes...? And he talks to him while still hovering peacefully.

Originally posted by jinzin
again.. if we're going to rationaliza into this as deep as you have is it inplausible that namor was considering superhero relations and the conflicts that might arrise if he continues the fight?

Are you actually serious? He KILLED an ATLANTEAN. ON FRONT OF HIS EYES. Do you think Namor gives jack shit about superhero relations? We are talking about a man who has invaded New York city because they hold up an Atlantean citizen there.

Yes. It is totally implausible. Ridicolous writing.

Originally posted by jinzin
same kinda noise i make when swinging a baseball bat..

Yeah, but half a ton is like 0,0005% of Namor's strength. Do you say "unnh" when lifting a pencil and swinging it? If you do, you should work out more.

Originally posted by jinzin
Orrrrrrrrrrrr he rolled with the claws as not to get gutting like in new invaders and cause wolverine lunged at him he ended up behind wolverine and used the vine to his advantage..

Doesn't change the fact that he wasn't doing anything agressive on the first three pages.

Originally posted by leonidas
dd i would agree with, dc. spidey otoh has taken some HUGE shots, so i don't think it pis if spidey didn't get . . . splattered. the one who would likely fare best is wolvie. spidey pounded mercilessly on his head AGAINST stone! and wolvie smiled through it. adamantium skull=no splattered brains. are you contending that ALL cl100s hold back against him?

No. Adamantium skeleton probably supports him, and he has healing factor.

But you can't change the fact that Namor's punch did as much damage (Okay, probably less) then Spider-Man's or Daredevil's punches against Wolverine.

He holds back.

Originally posted by illadelph12
To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

i was wondering when you were gonna chime in . . .

sorta makes some sense, but really defies logic. i think it is essentially inexplicable. nor does it NEED to be explained from the point of the writers. these are comicbooks. logic and science and real world cause and effect can be disregarded and ARE disregarded. we are trying to apply real world logic to a problem that cannot be described by it. that's why i say we need to look at what happens most consistently in books. in this case characters DO go flying a lot, and DON'T go flying at least as much. as i said a few pages ago -- it's fundamentally illogical and inexplicable.

Originally posted by illadelph12
To be honest, 100+ Ton mechanics are complete bullsh*t.

Reading this debate does open up a big question though:

If all of these 100+ ton strength characters can't send a character that weighs a little over an eighth of a ton to a half ton flying for miles, and there's literally hundreds of these occurences in canon continuity (them fighting eachother), couldn't it always be argued that the character's punches don't pack as much punch as their higher end feats would allude to since the lower end happens in a far greater abundance and can always be proven with scans?

Can you simply write it off as "holding back", or are the higher end feats equivalent to the "man pulls car off of his kid" type of feats that happen in real life when a person is provoked?

If Hulk weighs 1,200 lbs, shouldn't anyone with class 1 (2000 lbs)+ strength at least be able to lift him off his feet with an uppercut?

The flying thing has been put aside. I admitted that some things must be sacrificed for the sake of the story.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No. Adamantium skeleton probably supports him, and he has healing factor.

But you can't change the fact that Namor's punch did as much damage (Okay, probably less) then Spider-Man's or Daredevil's punches against Wolverine.

He holds back.

no

Originally posted by jinzin
no



When a Class 100 does as much damage as a Class 1, he is holding back. And like I have said before, Namor is known for holding back against people he doesn't want to hurt/kill...
http://img306.imageshack.us/img306/2968/captnamor18vl.gif
That of course is a full power kick to you...

I guess Namor wants to kill Daredevil here, so he punches him with full power...oh wait, but he does NOT want to kill him:
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7869/ddnamor41da.gif

Hence, he's holding back on that fight too.