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Ok, I've tried this before. Now, do you think that multiple Colossus(es?) would be able to beat Juggs, instead of Wolverines?

"Colossi" (co-loss-eye) if the web dictionary is correct.

No, Juggernaut can't be physically beaten and physical strength is all Colossus got.

Originally posted by illadelph12
"Colossi" if the web dictionary is correct.

Oh, crap! I knew that. LOL, this is early for me on a Saturday. Jese!! Duhhhhh.

Originally posted by illadelph12
"Colossi" (co-loss-eye) if the web dictionary is correct.

It's correct in Russian, not in english.

Well, Nimrod proved that sonics worked on Juggernaut, so if you gathered enough Collosi and had them all sonic clap simultaneously, it might put Juggs down.

It's not the direct approach, but it's been shown to work.

Originally posted by Sam Z
No, Juggernaut can't be physically beaten and physical strength is all Colossus got.

Except for the Hulk

Originally posted by Sam Z
No, Juggernaut can't be physically beaten and physical strength is all Colossus got.

Invulnerable doesn't mean you can't be harmed by physical strength. So you're saying that Gladiator or Superman couldn't harm Juggernaut??

Originally posted by superman41082
Invulnerable doesn't mean you can't be harmed by physical strength. So you're saying that Gladiator or Superman couldn't harm Juggernaut??

Physically no.

The 'Collosi' (sounds like a porn star name) get curbstomped.

Not even 1 million colossi????? C'mon........

No takers???

Originally posted by superman41082
Not even 1 million colossi????? C'mon........

No takers???

Sorry

I say about 50-100 could sonic clap him into submission. He's been taken down by sonics before.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I say about 50-100 could sonic clap him into submission. He's been taken down by sonics before.

Very good point.

Or, 1 million colossi could pick Juggernaut up and throw him into the sun. I'm sure that will harm him. Or, 1 million Colossi could rip the suit to shreds and wait for him to lose his powers. Guys..... Juggernaut is not unbeatable. You're all out of your minds......

Originally posted by superman41082
Very good point.

Or, 1 million colossi could pick Juggernaut up and throw him into the sun. I'm sure that will harm him. Or, 1 million Colossi could rip the suit to shreds and wait for him to lose his powers. Guys..... Juggernaut is not unbeatable. You're all out of your minds......

They can win by throwing him far away but they can't physically harm him. Sun wont hurt him BTW and ripping his suit would only embarass him

Originally posted by Sam Z
They can win by throwing him far away but they can't physically harm him. Sun wont hurt him BTW and ripping his suit would only embarass him

Doesn't he lose the effect after oh so many days????

And the sun has to hurt him. Really. It's the sun dude.........

Originally posted by superman41082
Doesn't he lose the effect after oh so many days????

And the sun has to hurt him. Really. It's the sun dude.........

Nope, Juggernaut can fight for eternity and he has limitless stamina.
High temperature can't hurt him, not even Sun's.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Nope, Juggernaut can fight for eternity and he has limitless stamina.
High temperature can't hurt him, not even Sun's.

So how have characters like Thor beaten him on numerous occasions? You make him sound like a useless character. He can be hurt dude........... I've seen it...........

Originally posted by superman41082
So how have characters like Thor beaten him on numerous occasions? You make him sound like a useless character. He can be hurt dude........... I've seen it...........

The only fight with Thor I remember was when Juggernaut beat him like there is no tomorrow. Non of Thor's blows were effective. Juggernaut was laughing at him. Juggernaut never was outfought.

There.

Originally posted by superman41082
So how have characters like Thor beaten him on numerous occasions? You make him sound like a useless character. He can be hurt dude........... I've seen it...........

Thor has never beaten Juggernaut, and neither has Hulk. Physically he cant be beaten, and when his helmets on he cant be tk'd. He was basically made to be the Ultimate Marvel Brawler. You could throw him in a black whole and he would leave without a scratch. You could god blast him in his chest and he would find it funny.

His abilities also don't derive from his magic shield or his suit. His body is just invulnerable to every form of harm, or attack. He's vulnerable to high lv magic, but even Dr.Strange couldn't put him down.

He's just a juggernaut

Originally posted by Sam Z
The only fight with Thor I remember was when Juggernaut beat him like there is no tomorrow. Non of Thor's blows were effective. Juggernaut was laughing at him. Juggernaut never was outfought.

Look, the respect threads can be misleading. From the Surfer's respect thread, you'd think that he could destroy the entire universe at will, but he can not. Superman is invulnerable, too, but he can obviously be hurt, and I have seen Thor beat Juggs. I don't remember what comic because I was young, but I remember specifically that he has......... Juggs is exactly that, an unstoppable force that wrecks everything in his path, but we can't take that too literally. There's always someone stronger in the world of comics.

Originally posted by superman41082
Look, the respect threads can be misleading. From the Surfer's respect thread, you'd think that he could destroy the entire universe at will, but he can not. Superman is invulnerable, too, but he can obviously be hurt, and I have seen Thor beat Juggs. I don't remember what comic because I was young, but I remember specifically that he has......... Juggs is exactly that, an unstoppable force that wrecks everything in his path, but we can't take that too literally. There's always someone stronger in the world of comics.

Unlike many other invulnerable characters he is literally absolutly invulnerable. He DON't feel pain at all. He can't be KOed, this is how Marvel writers created him. The only thing that works against him is TP.
Superman can be knocked out, Juggernaut can't and NO physical force in the whole universe could to that.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Unlike many other invulnerable characters he is literally absolutly invulnerable. He DON't feel pain at all. He can't be KOed, this is how Marvel writers created him. The only thing that works against him is TP.
Superman can be knocked out, Juggernaut can't and NO physical force in the whole universe could to that.

Well said

Originally posted by Sam Z
Unlike many other invulnerable characters he is literally absolutly invulnerable. He DON't feel pain at all. He can't be KOed, this is how Marvel writers created him. The only thing that works against him is TP.
Superman can be knocked out, Juggernaut can't and NO physical force in the whole universe could to that.

Hulk has stopped him dead in his tracks before. If one Hulk can break 1 law, a million Colossi might be able to break another...........

But i see your point, too......

Originally posted by superman41082
Hulk has stopped him dead in his tracks before. If one Hulk can break 1 law, a million Colossi might be able to break another...........

But i see your point, too......

Hulk has never stopped Juggernaut if he is give me the comic, issue, or scan.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Well said

Thanks

Originally posted by superman41082
Hulk has stopped him dead in his tracks before. If one Hulk can break 1 law, a million Colossi might be able to break another...........

But i see your point, too......

I think you must be talking about War Hulk but he didn't really stoped him, he only slowed him down. That's possible.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Hulk has never stopped Juggernaut if he is give me the comic, issue, or scan.

Ok, I didn't personally see Hulk stop him in motion, but I have heard a few people refer to that in this vs forum. I do remember seeing Thor beat Juggy when I was young, however. I find it hard to believe I am remembering incorrectly...........

Originally posted by superman41082
Ok, I didn't personally see Hulk stop him in motion, but I have heard a few people refer to that in this vs forum. I do remember seeing Thor beat Juggy when I was young, however. I find it hard to believe I am remembering incorrectly...........

I see what you mean, I have that issue and it really seems there that Hulk got really close to stopping Juggernaut but still Juggernaut kept moving forward, than their fight was interrupted.

Since you don't know when the Thor vs Juggernaut fights were ill put them out for you.

Thor vs Juggernaut fight 1: Thor gets beaten down like he's Juggernauts cell mate. Thor attempts to use god blast on Juggernaut, Juggernaut takes no damage. The Thunderbolts try to rescue Thor, and get beat down. They trick BFR Juggernaut.

Thor vs Juggernaut fight 2: Even when written with PIS its a stalemate

Thor vs Juggernaut fight 3: Thor gets beat within an inch of his life yet again.

Juggernaut W: 2 L: 0 T:1

Thor W: 0 L: 2 T:1

War Hulk, a severely amped Hulk stopped Juggernaut

Originally posted by Sam Z
Unlike many other invulnerable characters he is literally absolutly invulnerable. He DON't feel pain at all. He can't be KOed, this is how Marvel writers created him. The only thing that works against him is TP.
Superman can be knocked out, Juggernaut can't and NO physical force in the whole universe could to that.

That's not true. Nimrod knocked Juggernaut out with sonics.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278192

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278206

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278219

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278232

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278272

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278284

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278295

Particularly the last scan.

Nimrod takes Juggernaut out with "tight beam, high frequency sonics". Juggs is wearing his skull cap that protects his mind from psionics, but he is still vulnerable, and incapacitated, by sonics.

Nimrod punked Juggernaut like a lil b*tch.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's not true. Nimrod knocked Juggernaut out with sonics.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278192

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278206

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278219

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278232

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278272

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278284

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278295

Particularly the last scan.

Nimrod takes Juggernaut out with "tight beam, high frequency sonics". Juggs is wearing his skull cap that protects his mind from psionics, but he is still vulnerable, and incapacitated, by sonics.

Nimrod punked Juggernaut like a lil b*tch.

I was talking about physically harming him. That attack works different from usual attacks.

Sonic overload is physical. It's not a punch, but it's a physical attack. Like screaming in someone's ear. At the right pitch, you can make a person's ear bleed, and that's in the real world.

Juggernaut is not invulnerable is basically what I'm saying.

The Colossi have a chance.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sonic overload is physical. It's not a punch, but it's a physical attack. Like screaming in someone's ear. At the right pitch, you can make a person's ear bleed, and that's in the real world.

Juggernaut is not invulnerable is basically what I'm saying.

The Colossi have a chance.

So someone really fast could run around and hit him with some sonic booms, and could take him down?????

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sonic overload is physical. It's not a punch, but it's a physical attack. Like screaming in someone's ear.

I have issue where Juggernaut got his eye cut with a blade. If those sonics really was a normal physical attack then I have only one explanation - bad writing. C'mone Godblast can't harm him but this did?!

Yep. It's already been shown he's vulnerable to sonics. It's just a manner of being able to generate the right magnitude. I'd say a few hundred organic metal class 100+ superhumans thunderclapping simultaneously could generate a large enough sonic boom to knock him out.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I have issue where Juggernaut got his eye cut with a blade. If those sonics really was a normal physical attack then I have only one explanation - bad writing. C'mone Godblast can't harm him but this did?!

Why????? How is that bad writing? It makes perfect sense.......... nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by superman41082
Why????? How is that bad writing? It makes perfect sense.......... nothing wrong with that.

It doesn't make sense at all. Why should loud sound hurt him while NOTHING else can? Not nuke, not godblast, not sun temperature.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I have issue where Juggernaut got his eye cut with a blade. If those sonics really was a normal physical attack then I have only one explanation - bad writing. C'mone Godblast can't harm him but this did?!

It's not bad writing, it's just that every attack has different properties, you can't simply say "this attack is more powerful, so that couldn't work because this more powerful attack doesn't".

A Godblast is more powerful than a sonic attack, I'll grant you that, but they don't effect their targets in the same manner.

Someone can be complete impervious to impact damage and still be downed by sensory overload. It bypasses their durability.

Mike Tyson can take a punch, but blow a foghorn point blank in his ear and he'll be down on his knees crying, holding his ears.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It doesn't make sense at all. Why should loud sound hurt him while NOTHING else can? Not nuke, not godblast, not sun temperature.

Because sound is not a nuke, a godblast, or temperature. It's completely different.

Originally posted by superman41082
Because sound is not a nuke, a godblast, or temperature. It's completely different.

It completly sucks comparing to nuke or godblast.

Every attack works differently.

Sound directly effects the inner ear and a person's sense of balance and central nervous system.

Electricty can cause burn damage, but it's also a matter of conductivity of the target.

Concussive blasts are all about force.

Heat blasts are, well, heat.

Etc.

Just because I'm invulnerable to being shot or burned doesn't mean that an extremely high pitch sound won't disrupt my sense of balance.

Originally posted by Sam Z
It completly sucks comparing to nuke or godblast.

As illadelph12 eloquently said, each power has different properties. You seem to be attracted to brute strength and toughness. Other people are attracted to odd powers that you say 'suck'. I think that sonic powers are extremely cool, and it makes total sense that they could put Juggs down.

MEGA POST

Originally posted by illadelph12
I say about 50-100 could sonic clap him into submission. He's been taken down by sonics before.
He was taken out by sound that was tuned to a certain frequency by a robot. Colossus' hands aren't nearly smart enough to do that.

Originally posted by superman41082
Very good point.

Or, 1 million colossi could pick Juggernaut up and throw him into the sun. I'm sure that will harm him. Or, 1 million Colossi could rip the suit to shreds and wait for him to lose his powers. Guys..... Juggernaut is not unbeatable. You're all out of your minds......
A million Colossi working together? Are they going to latch onto each other and form some kind of combined super Colossus? I don't think more than 5 or 6 of them will have access to Juggernaut at any given time unless they just form a big dog-pile and try to wiggle homo-erotically until Juggernaut admits defeat.

Originally posted by superman41082
Doesn't he lose the effect after oh so many days????
No, that's probably from the cartoon.

If the combined might of a half dozen Colossi can throw a bulky, Buick sized man object over 400 mph straight up I'll forgo griping about the accuracy needed to throw something into the sun from earth.

Originally posted by superman41082
Look, the respect threads can be misleading. From the Surfer's respect thread, you'd think that he could destroy the entire universe at will, but he can not. Superman is invulnerable, too, but he can obviously be hurt, and I have seen Thor beat Juggs. I don't remember what comic because I was young, but I remember specifically that he has.........
I think the only time Thor really stopped Juggernaut was when he engulfed him in metal then teleported him away.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Nimrod takes Juggernaut out with "tight beam, high frequency sonics". Juggs is wearing his skull cap that protects his mind from psionics, but he is still vulnerable, and incapacitated, by sonics.

Since when does clapping create tight beam, high frequency sound?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Every attack works differently.

Sound directly effects the inner ear and a person's sense of balance and central nervous system.

Electricty can cause burn damage, but it's also a matter of conductivity of the target.

Concussive blasts are all about force.

Heat blasts are, well, heat.

Etc.

Just because I'm invulnerable to being shot or burned doesn't mean that an extremely high pitch sound won't disrupt my sense of balance.

Originally posted by superman41082
As illadelph12 eloquently said, each power has different properties. You seem to be attracted to brute strength and toughness. Other people are attracted to odd powers that you say 'suck'. I think that sonic powers are extremely cool, and it makes total sense that they could put Juggs down.

Sounds effects the inner ear, right. And this effect is still a physical harm. Sonic waves damage them. That's why people get deef because of the loud sound, their ear get damaged, and Juggernaut CAN'T be damaged.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Sounds effects the inner ear, right. And this effect is still a physical harm. Sonic waves damage them. That's why people get deef because of the loud sound, their ear get damaged, and Juggernaut CAN'T be damaged.

Thats a good point

Regular clapping doesn't.

"Thunderclapping" does. It's a sonic attack.

High frequency sound is sonics. Like Banshee and/or Siryn's sonic screams.

This event shows that Juggernaut is vulnerable to sonics, so the magnitude of 50 or more Colossi thunderclapping simultaneously is going to effect him, he's been proven to be prone to sensory overload, and sonics generated to that degee will effect him.

If not, add more Colossi and repeat. 50 should be enough. 1000 would definitely put him down with a simultaneous sonic attack.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Sounds effects the inner ear, right. And this effect is still a physical harm. Sonic waves damage them. That's why people get deef because of the loud sound, their ear get damaged, and Juggernaut CAN'T be damaged.

Nonetheless, he still gets hurt by it. Also, I had thought about the bones in the ear, and was pondering your conclusion, but there are more variables than just the bones in the ear. Are you an expert on everything that sound is and does? No........ we'd need a scientist to be in the forum and tell us all the possibilities of what sound actually is and can actually do, and still then he can't know everything.......

Originally posted by Sam Z
Sounds effects the inner ear, right. And this effect is still a physical harm. Sonic waves damage them. That's why people get deef because of the loud sound, their ear get damaged, and Juggernaut CAN'T be damaged.



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278295

He can, and it's canon continuity.

He can take a punch, a blast, fire, etc.

High frequency sounds put him down.

Also, who's to say that pschic blasts are not physical???? It's a different kind of physicality. The mind and the body are one.........

Basically, Juggernaut's brain is vulnerable. The rest of his body isn't. He's vulnerable to telepathy and sensory overload.

I wonder if extreme luminal exposure would effect him?

Originally posted by illadelph12


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278295

He can, and it's canon continuity.

He can take a punch, a blast, fire, etc.

High frequency sounds put him down.

And Spider-man beat firelord. It's also a canon. So? Badwriting...

Originally posted by superman41082
Nonetheless, he still gets hurt by it. Also, I had thought about the bones in the ear, and was pondering your conclusion, but there are more variables than just the bones in the ear. Are you an expert on everything that sound is and does? No........ we'd need a scientist to be in the forum and tell us all the possibilities of what sound actually is and can actually do, and still then he can't know everything.......

I don't need to be a scientist to tell what effect loud sound makes on inner ear.

Illadelph, I didn't know you were from BK fam. I'm from the Bush.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Basically, Juggernaut's brain is vulnerable. The rest of his body isn't. He's vulnerable to telepathy and sensory overload.

I wonder if extreme luminal exposure would effect him?

Well..... the brain is connected to everything. If his brain is vulnerable so is his ear..........

Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't need to be a scientist to tell what effect loud sound makes on inner ear. \

I'm not talking about the effects on just the ear. I'm talking about all the effects of sonics.....

Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
Illadelph, I didn't know you were from BK fam. I'm from the Bush.

Word? I'm from E. 35, Do or Die originally. I stay in California now. Moved out here when I was 12 (26 now).

Originally posted by Sam Z
And Spider-man beat firelord. It's also a canon. So? Badwriting...

Pretty much.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon continuity.

It makes perfect sense that a person prone to telepathy would be prone to sensory overload. What do you think a psi bolt does?

Who said Juggernauts brain was vulnerable to physical attack? Just to let you guys know, Marvel stated that if Juggernaut would have has his helmet on the attack wouldn't have worked.

Oh yea, and Juggernauts ears are a part of his physical body, thus they shouldn't be vulnerable to anything.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Regular clapping doesn't.

"Thunderclapping" does. It's a sonic attack.

High frequency sound is sonics. Like Banshee and/or Siryn's sonic screams.

This event shows that Juggernaut is vulnerable to sonics, so the magnitude of 50 or more Colossi thunderclapping simultaneously is going to effect him, he's been proven to be prone to sensory overload, and sonics generated to that degee will effect him.

If not, add more Colossi and repeat. 50 should be enough. 1000 would definitely put him down with a simultaneous sonic attack.
High frequency sound is sonics that work like a laser beam. Coincidently, just like Nimdrod described it; a tight beam.

Thunderclapping works more like an explosion.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Pretty much.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon continuity.

It makes perfect sense that a person prone to telepathy would be prone to sensory overload. What do you think a psi bolt does?

I never said it's not a canon, I only said it's bad writing like when his eye was cut.
I would've explaybed you in details how sound vibrations effect inner ear but I'm affraid my knowledge of english is limited to the level where I can discuss only simple things.

Originally posted by superman41082
\

I'm not talking about the effects on just the ear. I'm talking about all the effects of sonics.....

Well, these things are kinda connected here...

Now amount of Colossus can beat Juggernaut. Here is why. He is completely immune to all physical attacks. He has never been hurt except for high end magic and telepathy.

Thor has never hurt a full powered Cain. He once negated part of Cain's enchantment with the magic powers of his hammer then hurt a depowered Juggs but as soon as he gained his power back Thor was unable to do anything to him.

War Hulk managed to do anything to Cain because he was amped by Celestial Tech and that energy like high end magic was able to effect him and even still he was never hurt just got tossed around a bit.

As for all the colossus throwing Cain into orbit there is a big problem to this. Maybe a million could but only a few would be able to fight Cain at a time the others would be behind the others because only so much mass can occupy a spot at once.

69

Originally posted by diabloman
69

Forgot to add something else.
Nimrod used a focused sonic attack to directly attack Cain's nervous system while a thunder clap would not be the same. About that it was even stated that if Cain had his shield up the attack may not of even worked.
Adding another thing to the Nimrod attack it could be placed as one of those things that should not be plausable if we are taking Cain with his high end feats. For instance he has been removed of all flesh and organs before. He was able to move without muscles and his nervous system telling his body what to do so if we take that into account then an attack on his nervous system really should have no effect on Cain.

Originally posted by badabing
my lucky #

Originally posted by diabloman
my lucky #
Lucky # indeed. shifty

Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, Nimrod proved that sonics worked on Juggernaut, so if you gathered enough Collosi and had them all sonic clap simultaneously, it might put Juggs down.

It's not the direct approach, but it's been shown to work.

Nimrod used a specific frequency, I don't see all of them copying that.

Originally posted by superman41082
Very good point.

Or, 1 million colossi could pick Juggernaut up and throw him into the sun. I'm sure that will harm him. Or, 1 million Colossi could rip the suit to shreds and wait for him to lose his powers. Guys..... Juggernaut is not unbeatable. You're all out of your minds......

As if that many could get their hands on him at once. And the suit's mystically indestructable, but he doesn't really need it cause his skin's just as durable, just a way to keep him from running around naked. And no one said Juggernaut wasn't unbeatable, just not by purely physical means. You should really read up more on Juggernaut.

Originally posted by superman41082
Doesn't he lose the effect after oh so many days????

And the sun has to hurt him. Really. It's the sun dude.........

No, He'd only be pissed cause he was stuck in the middle of the sun.

Originally posted by superman41082
So how have characters like Thor beaten him on numerous occasions? You make him sound like a useless character. He can be hurt dude........... I've seen it...........

There only been three occasions where they fought. First time, Juggernaut had the advantage until Thor teleported him. Second time, Thor temporarily cut him off from some of his power and had the advantage, until that wore off and Thor teleported him again, and we already know about the third time. Now, are you trying to compare Colossus to Thor?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
god blast him in his chest and he would find it funny.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Who said Juggernauts brain was vulnerable to physical attack? Just to let you guys know, Marvel stated that if Juggernaut would have has his helmet on the attack wouldn't have worked.

Oh yea, and Juggernauts ears are a part of his physical body, thus they shouldn't be vulnerable to anything.

But they are. It's called sensory overload. He is obviously not invulnerable to ALL physical harm because these kinds of things hurt him. He can get hurt. You were wrong, get over it.

I'm sorry, but

I posted the scan.

Juggernaut was wearing his skull cap when Nimrod attacked him. That Skull cap has the same psionic dampening properties as his helmet and he was still effected by the sonics.

All of your explanations do not add up, I'm sorry.

Please review the scan again.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=2278295

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8241/xmennimrod00074it.jpg

^ Wearing skull cap.

Per canon, Juggernaut is vulnerable to psionic assault, be it by telepathic manipulation or a psi bolt (sensory overload), as well as high frequency sonics, another cause of sensory overload.

His brain is vulnerable.

I don't know if it's sensory overload. You can use sonics to make people sick, dizzy, or to blur their vision at certain frequencies. None of it really involves damage, it's just your body isn't used to the effect on the inner ear or its eyeballs vibrating.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I don't know if it's sensory overload. You can use sonics to make people sick, dizzy, or to blur their vision at certain frequencies. None of it really involves damage, it's just your body isn't used to the effect on the inner ear or its eyeballs vibrating.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't sensory overload simply one of your 5 senses being overly stimulated to the point of malfunction? Like an epileptic having a seizure due to being exposed to to much visual stimuli.

Don't ultrasonics have the same effect, but over stimulate via the ear rather than the eye?

Originally posted by Grimm22


Juggernaut aleady took the god blast once without any ill affect.

Hey Illadelpth, I agree with everything you've said. As much as a lot of people would like to believe it, the Juggernaut ISN'T completely unstoppable. He still has weaknesses. Nimrod has been shown to stop him, and as mentioned, this was canon.

Nimrod is the ideal character to detect a weakness in someone like the Juggernaut, it's what he does. And it makes perfect sense that the Juggernaut is susceptible to sonics, he's never shown to be protected from certain high frequencies in the past, so why is this so hard to believe?

Because he has to be damaged in order for the sonics to work on him, and according to the las 40 years of Marvel bio's and comics he's completely impervious to ALL forms of physical harm. According to Marvel, the only weakness Juggernaut has is TK.

He's invulnerable to conventional harm (punches, concussive force, impacts, etc.), not sensory stimuli. He isn't invulnerable to psi bolts or sonics, illusions, etc, which are sensory driven attacks. The precedent has been set, in canon occurrences, that Juggernaut's brain is vulnerable. You can't punch or shoot him, but you can attack his nervous system directly with the proper implements. If you can effect his senses, you can "harm" him. It's been conclusively proven.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Because he has to be damaged in order for the sonics to work on him, and according to the las 40 years of Marvel bio's and comics he's completely impervious to ALL forms of physical harm. According to Marvel, the only weakness Juggernaut has is TK.

You mean "TP", telepathy, not "TK", telekinesis.

Telepathy is a sensory driven power.

"Extra Sensory".

Colossus slapping his hands together trying to make a Nimrod style attack is akin to me seeing a laser burn metal and then trying to burn a hole through solid steel with a low powered flashlight.

It won't work.

Plus, they'd need to remove his helmet AFTER getting past his impenetrable force field.

Originally posted by illadelph12
He's invulnerable to conventional harm (punches, concussive force, impacts, etc.), not sensory stimuli. He isn't invulnerable to psi bolts or sonics, illusions, etc, which are sensory driven attacks. The precedent has been set, in canon occurrences, that Juggernaut's brain is vulnerable. You can't punch or shoot him, but you can attack his nervous system directly with the proper implements. If you can effect his senses, you can "harm" him. It's been conclusively proven.

I don't know why it is so important for you if it canon or not because bad writing take place even in canon stories. And this is obviously badwriting.

I've never paid any interest in Juggy before, mostly just seeing him as big guy with funny hat, but this whole concept of unstoppable/invulnerable intrigues me.

If he's invulnerable to physical harm then sonics shouldn't affect him, seeings as sound is basically shock waves and travel from atom to atom. Adapting the frequency you can shatter glass and affect your environment in a physical way. There is no magic behind it.

From what I can understand it's stated that Juggy's brain is vulnerable, but not the brain itself. If his brain in itself would be vulnerable you should be able to take him down with say a fencing sword if you managed to hit his ear canal. Rather nasty, but down he goes. But if he's invulnerable to physical arm he might just sense a slightly tickling. "Juggy sense, tingling".

But if the brain is susceptible to outer influence, can he be hypnotized? I can't see him being able to fend himself of that, unless he starts wearing some kind of anti shades.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Because he has to be damaged in order for the sonics to work on him, and according to the las 40 years of Marvel bio's and comics he's completely impervious to ALL forms of physical harm. According to Marvel, the only weakness Juggernaut has is TK.
He doesn't have to be damaged. The beam could of changed the pressure in his inner ear and he wouldn't even be able to walk much less put up any kind of fight. It's actually pretty ingenius.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't sensory overload simply one of your 5 senses being overly stimulated to the point of malfunction? Like an epileptic having a seizure due to being exposed to to much visual stimuli.

Don't ultrasonics have the same effect, but over stimulate via the ear rather than the eye?
All the sites I read involving sensory overload were about autistic people and their... lessened ability to take things in? and the variety of reactions to overload, senses shutting down, etc. The wiki also mentioned gifted people being unable concentrating with other things going on around them.

That's kind of strange because I can't concentrate with other things going on around me but I also get so locked into things that people will talk to me and I won't hear them.

So lets say we take Juggernauts brain out. Then we have Thor smash his hammer against it as hard as he can. would the brain be destroyed? no, because his whole body is impervious to all forms of damage except high end magic, and tp to the brain.

"He doesn't have to be damaged. The beam could of changed the pressure in his inner ear and he wouldn't even be able to walk much less put up any kind of fight. It's actually pretty ingenius."

This isn't true. Remember his fight his with D'Spyre when his whole body was magically burnt, until he was reduced to nothing but a skeleton. Even without his organs, including his brain he was able to walk and talk. Given this info he doesn't even need his body and organs, so in actuality he really shouldn't have fallen to Nimrod's attack.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
"He doesn't have to be damaged. The beam could of changed the pressure in his inner ear and he wouldn't even be able to walk much less put up any kind of fight. It's actually pretty ingenius."

This isn't true. Remember his fight his with D'Spyre when his whole body was magically burnt, until he was reduced to nothing but a skeleton. Even without his organs, including his brain he was able to walk and talk. Given this info he doesn't even need his body and organs, so in actuality he really shouldn't have fallen to Nimrod's attack.
Yes, and he could talk too. But he also eats and drinks and breathes even though he doesn't have to. That means, while not necessary, his body is still a functional "human" body, and so those systems can be tampered with within bounds.

Originally posted by long pig
Colossus slapping his hands together trying to make a Nimrod style attack is akin to me seeing a laser burn metal and then trying to burn a hole through solid steel with a low powered flashlight.

It won't work.

Plus, they'd need to remove his helmet AFTER getting past his impenetrable force field.

So Juggernaut can't hear with his helmet on?

I find it funny how a skeleton talking without vocal chords is a plausible occurance, but sensory overload of a character vulnerable to sensory attacks (TP) is not.

Regardless, there's no flaw in the logical argument I'm presenting. It's part of the Juggernaut character's premise that he has sensory vulnerability. He'd be invulnerable to the concussive effects of the sonics, not the sensory effects.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So lets say we take Juggernauts brain out. Then we have Thor smash his hammer against it as hard as he can. would the brain be destroyed? no, because his whole body is impervious to all forms of damage except high end magic, and tp to the brain.

"He doesn't have to be damaged. The beam could of changed the pressure in his inner ear and he wouldn't even be able to walk much less put up any kind of fight. It's actually pretty ingenius."

This isn't true. Remember his fight his with D'Spyre when his whole body was magically burnt, until he was reduced to nothing but a skeleton. Even without his organs, including his brain he was able to walk and talk. Given this info he doesn't even need his body and organs, so in actuality he really shouldn't have fallen to Nimrod's attack. .

It was sensory stimuli, not a conventional physical assault. Completely different properties.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I find it funny how a skeleton talking without vocal chords is a plausible occurance, but sensory overload of a character vulnerable to sensory attacks (TP) is not.

Regardless, there's no flaw in the logical argument I'm presenting. It's part of the Juggernaut character's premise that he has sensory vulnerability. He'd be invulnerable to the concussive effects of the sonics, not the sensory effects.

Why are you getting so into the logical side of his power? If logic was to be into comics like your trying to use there would be no comics in the first place.

The sensory attack was meant to cause pain on Juggernauts system, Juggernaut is immune to all forms of attack except tp. That "all" includes sensory attacks.

unless colossus has TP he can't beat juggernaut cause he can't be KO'd no mather how many colossus you put against him

2-3 to put him down...Each from the current. Even one Colossus was able to put him off balance. But Juggernaut is physically unbeatable as in Classic form, unstoppable...Yeah I say 2-3 can put him down....Not to knockout, just Juggy couldn't really beat or do real demage to them...I'm saying this as a huge Juggernaut and Colossus fan

Originally posted by long pig
Colossus slapping his hands together trying to make a Nimrod style attack is akin to me seeing a laser burn metal and then trying to burn a hole through solid steel with a low powered flashlight.

It won't work.

Plus, they'd need to remove his helmet AFTER getting past his impenetrable force field.

You're over simplifying and completely missing my point.

Juggernaut has been conclusively proven to be vulnerable to sensory stimuli, be it telepathy or high frequency sonics. I'm not saying Colossus could create the same frequency Nimrod did, I'm saying he could create a sonic stimuli of a significant magnitude to which it would effect Juggs. 1000 Colossi Thunderclapping simultaneously is a lot of sensory input. It's a plausible outcome if you can be objective.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
This isn't true. Remember his fight his with D'Spyre when his whole body was magically burnt, until he was reduced to nothing but a skeleton. Even without his organs, including his brain he was able to walk and talk. Given this info he doesn't even need his body and organs, so in actuality he really shouldn't have fallen to Nimrod's attack.

hmm, i went back and checked out that juggy one-shot with d'spayre. i still am not totally sure, but i wonder if he was able to keep going even as a skeleton because of spite? he is surrounded by a pink glow, the same power glow that surrounds spite. the glow around him is the same colour as her power throughout the book as well. juggs also says that the only thing keeping him going was HATE! hate and spite are of course, pretty much the same things, and juggs seemed pretty sure that spite was about to kill him at the end. it's just such a bizarre showing that it seems it needs some sort of explanation, and it makes perfect sense that spite would keep juggs alive so she could draw off more power from d'spayre. look at the last panel in the first scan, (the glow that surrounds all of them) then in the second, see the colour of spite's power? conincedence? personally, i don't think so . . .

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/299/juggs11ti.th.jpg

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3995/juggs35hp.th.jpg

worse thinking about at least.

The glow ment he was drawing power I thought? They were all draing power from Cyttorak, and thats where the crimson glow came from.

You see how Cain told Spite that she was using his powers?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Why are you getting so into the logical side of his power? If logic was to be into comics like your trying to use there would be no comics in the first place.

The sensory attack was meant to cause pain on Juggernauts system, Juggernaut is immune to all forms of attack except tp. That "all" includes sensory attacks.

I'm posing logical retorts to illogical rebuttals.

Telepathy is a sensory attack. It stands to reason that if he's been shown vulnerable to telepathy and sonics he's vulnerable to sensory stimuli.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You're over simplifying and completely missing my point.

Juggernaut has been conclusively proven to be vulnerable to sensory stimuli, be it telepathy or high frequency sonics. I'm not saying Colossus could create the same frequency Nimrod did, I'm saying he could create a sonic stimuli of a significant magnitude to which it would effect Juggs. 1000 Colossi Thunderclapping simultaneously is a lot of sensory input. It's a plausible outcome if you can be objective.

Isn't there a difference between TP, and high sensory sonics?

Don't Sensory Sonics cause pain to the ear Drums?

Isn't TP used, to get inside the brain?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Isn't there a difference between TP, and high sensory sonics?

Don't Sensory Sonics cause pain to the ear Drums?

Isn't TP used, to get inside the brain?

I think it's like that...Sonic waves are for the hearing canals....

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Isn't there a difference between TP, and high sensory sonics?

Don't Sensory Sonics cause pain to the ear Drums?

Isn't TP used, to get inside the brain?

All sensory input is processed by the brain.

Sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing.

All processed by the brain.

Something can stink so bad you get overwhelmed and pass out.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
The glow ment he was drawing power I thought? They were all draing power from Cyttorak, and thats where the crimson glow came from.

You see how Cain told Spite that she was using his powers?

meh, could be. it's certainly not conclusive proof by any means. juggs was never shown with the glow at all anywhere else is all and the feat is sufficiently . . . strange to warrant some sort of odd explanation.

Originally posted by Rewmac
I think it's like that...Sonic waves are for the hearing canals....

exactly, why would his entire body be completely impervious to harm except his ears?

he has shown to have the glow in another comic book. See the fight with war hulk. You notice a similar artist and similar power spillage of a similar color.

Really TP can be thought of in multiple ways. I peronally view it as the person invades the victims mind and doesn't cause a sensory overload so much as an emotional breakdown. They use the power to manifest every painful and conflicting memory that they can and this overloads the opponents ability to handle the trauma of the severe emotion.

I know it isn't cannon but you see something similar in that dubbed over juggernaut B**** cartoon. When charles attacks him he sees his father and that kind of stuff. His father was a main point of his bad childhood which (if it was cannon) would support this thesis.

So i am just saying that it is possible that it has nothing to do with actual senses overloading but causeing a mental breakdown.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
exactly, why would his entire body be completely impervious to harm except his ears?

It's not his ears, it's his brain. His brain process the stimuli, the ears are just the receptors.

Who ever said his brain wasn't as resistant to injury as the rest of his body? these sensory attacks aren't the same as tp.

Colossus has stopped a train, even with juggs "inertia manipulating unstoppable-ness" i think it would only take 3 colossia to stop the juggernaut, they could eventually rip his helmet off and find away to overload his senses, if not three colossai is a stalemate at least.


J/k 1 mil collossai and the juggernaut would wade thru them, three-shotting all of them. JUGS OWNS.

Are you serious?

no

Soujaboy, why are you so unopen to the sensory thing? Sonics can cause a pressure change in a person's inner ear making them dizzy. It doesn't cause any damage whatsoever. It may even be the body's own reaction to the frequency. Why wouldn't it work on Juggernaut?

This is regarding frequency attacks like Nimrod's.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i went back and checked out that juggy one-shot with d'spayre. i still am not totally sure, but i wonder if he was able to keep going even as a skeleton because of spite? he is surrounded by a pink glow, the same power glow that surrounds spite. the glow around him is the same colour as her power throughout the book as well. juggs also says that the only thing keeping him going was HATE! hate and spite are of course, pretty much the same things, and juggs seemed pretty sure that spite was about to kill him at the end. it's just such a bizarre showing that it seems it needs some sort of explanation, and it makes perfect sense that spite would keep juggs alive so she could draw off more power from d'spayre. look at the last panel in the first scan, (the glow that surrounds all of them) then in the second, see the colour of spite's power? conincedence? personally, i don't think so . . .

Her glow looks more orange-ish and his is pink-ish.

My only problem is that Marvel has never stated that these things work on Juggernaut. The only attack that works on Juggernaut are tp based attacks. Tp does not include these attacks that you are bringing up.

It's Magic, I cant explain it

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Who ever said his brain wasn't as resistant to injury as the rest of his body? these sensory attacks aren't the same as tp.

Telepathy is a sensory attack. Telepathy is an extra sensory ability. Juggernaut has been conclusively proven to be vulnerable to sensory manipulation, either via telepathy or sonics.

That's my whole point.

It can't be disputed, it's canon fact.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
My only problem is that Marvel has never stated that these things work on Juggernaut. The only attack that works on Juggernaut are tp based attacks. Tp does not include these attacks that you are bringing up.

It's Magic, I cant explain it



http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8241/xmennimrod00074it.jpg

^Marvel states per visual depiction in canon continuity that Juggernaut is vulnerable to sonics.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Juggernaut is vulnerable to sensory stimuli via sonics or telepathy.

Originally posted by superman41082
Very good point.

Or, 1 million colossi could pick Juggernaut up and throw him into the sun. I'm sure that will harm him. Or, 1 million Colossi could rip the suit to shreds and wait for him to lose his powers. Guys..... Juggernaut is not unbeatable. You're all out of your minds......


It doesnt matter if you put one billion trillion gazillion collossus's up against him, and it doesnt matter whether he even gets thrown into the red sun of krypton.... he is invincible!

Originally posted by illadelph12


http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8241/xmennimrod00074it.jpg

^Marvel states per visual depiction in canon continuity that Juggernaut is vulnerable to sonics.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Juggernaut is vulnerable to sensory stimuli via sonics or telepathy.

What do you think of my theory though. You pretty much ignored it and i would like to know what the other side of the coin thinks.

Originally posted by outarddwarf
What do you think of my theory though. You pretty much ignored it and i would like to know what the other side of the coin thinks.

I'm sorry, I missed the post. One sec.

Originally posted by outarddwarf
he has shown to have the glow in another comic book. See the fight with war hulk. You notice a similar artist and similar power spillage of a similar color.

Really TP can be thought of in multiple ways. I peronally view it as the person invades the victims mind and doesn't cause a sensory overload so much as an emotional breakdown. They use the power to manifest every painful and conflicting memory that they can and this overloads the opponents ability to handle the trauma of the severe emotion.

I know it isn't cannon but you see something similar in that dubbed over juggernaut B**** cartoon. When charles attacks him he sees his father and that kind of stuff. His father was a main point of his bad childhood which (if it was cannon) would support this thesis.

So i am just saying that it is possible that it has nothing to do with actual senses overloading but causeing a mental breakdown.

I disagree with this due to a few things.

Firstly, Juggernaut is vulnerable to Psylocke's psi dagger which isn't a telepathic manipulation attack that conjures up past memories. It's a manifestation of psions focussed into the shape of a blade.

Secondly, Juggernaut is vulnerable to psi bolts which are simply bolts of psychic energy (psions). They aren't controlled probes of the psyche, they're basically just energy blasts composed of mental energy.

Thirdly, telepathy is an extra sensory ability. It works directly with sensory input and the higher functions of the brain. You can cause the victim to go blind, become paralyzed, forcible cause them to percieve images that aren't there or react to stimuli that aren't actually present, access their memories, etc. It doesn't deal primarily with emotions (empathy), it deals with the functions of the brain as a whole.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Telepathy is a sensory attack. Telepathy is an extra sensory ability. Juggernaut has been conclusively proven to be vulnerable to sensory manipulation, either via telepathy or sonics.

That's my whole point.

It can't be disputed, it's canon fact.

Very well said.......

Originally posted by illadelph12
Telepathy is a sensory attack. Telepathy is an extra sensory ability. Juggernaut has been conclusively proven to be vulnerable to sensory manipulation, either via telepathy or sonics.

That's my whole point.

It can't be disputed, it's canon fact.
In Marvel though, telepathy is like a form of electrical control. Magneto has a limited degree of telepathy and people with magnetic or electrical powers have a higher resistance to it. It directly manipulates the brain patterns.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
My only problem is that Marvel has never stated that these things work on Juggernaut. The only attack that works on Juggernaut are tp based attacks. Tp does not include these attacks that you are bringing up.

It's Magic, I cant explain it
I don't there's ever been a comic where it specifically states that only telepathy and magic can affect Juggernaut. Ears are sensitive and pain doesn't always equal damage.

Your thoughts on Telepathy are interesting.
On the Magneto TP idea I thought that Magneto didn't have TP in accordance to most Telepathic users. As in he can only control the nervous system thus he can't do what other TP users can such s read minds just mess the the electrical pattern which is in quite different in terms of actual TP. I would say that Telepathy as presented normally in Marvel is a not exactly a normal physical concept. As shown in the use of aspects like the Astral Plane or astral projections which seem to promote some kind of energy concept more along the lines of magic and cosmic power presented in Marvel. In fact most poeple with magical power and cosmic power also have TP like Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange.

Ill the arguement with Nimrod is mute in only that Marvel itself says if he had his shield up the attack wuold basically have no effect. The big matter here is that Cain as a character has been shown to not need the basic needs of a human. Air to breath, vocal chords to talk and muscles or organ systems to function. Since in this appearance it seems that Cain doesn't need these things then it is therefore a simple idea to see that effecting them would in turn have no effect if he doesn't use them. While the Nimrod event seems to take these notions and dismiss them. what this leads to is a contradiction of the same character in two canon sources. This normally means on these forums that the higher feat is the one that is to be used. Unless it is an example of SvFL in which a character goes completely beyond their capabilites but in this feat nothing of that sort takes place therefore it can be used.

Originally posted by newjak86
Your thoughts on Telepathy are interesting.
On the Magneto TP idea I thought that Magneto didn't have TP in accordance to most Telepathic users. As in he can only control the nervous system thus he can't do what other TP users can such s read minds just mess the the electrical pattern which is in quite different in terms of actual TP. I would say that Telepathy as presented normally in Marvel is a not exactly a normal physical concept. As shown in the use of aspects like the Astral Plane or astral projections which seem to promote some kind of energy concept more along the lines of magic and cosmic power presented in Marvel. In fact most poeple with magical power and cosmic power also have TP like Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange.

Ill the arguement with Nimrod is mute in only that Marvel itself says if he had his shield up the attack wuold basically have no effect. The big matter here is that Cain as a character has been shown to not need the basic needs of a human. Air to breath, vocal chords to talk and muscles or organ systems to function. Since in this appearance it seems that Cain doesn't need these things then it is therefore a simple idea to see that effecting them would in turn have no effect if he doesn't use them. While the Nimrod event seems to take these notions and dismiss them. what this leads to is a contradiction of the same character in two canon sources. This normally means on these forums that the higher feat is the one that is to be used. Unless it is an example of SvFL in which a character goes completely beyond their capabilites but in this feat nothing of that sort takes place therefore it can be used.

I disagree.

The premise of Juggernaut has always been that that he is physically invulnerable, but certain attacks, be they magical or mental, effect him.

People are confusing the effects of sonics; sonics are not simply a concussive attack. The properties of sonics are multi-faceted.

There are soundwaves of such a magnitude that they can shatter matter and cause shockwaves for miles, and there's also the sensory stimuli of sonics that directly effect the brain and central nervous system of people in the effected area.

A thunderclap in the real world can both shake a city and cause people and objects to fall over, as well as deafen a person and cause sensory overload. Multi-faceted effects.

Comparing sonics to other energy attacks is a lost cause. All energy attacks have different properties.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
In Marvel though, telepathy is like a form of electrical control. Magneto has a limited degree of telepathy and people with magnetic or electrical powers have a higher resistance to it. It directly manipulates the brain patterns.


I don't there's ever been a comic where it specifically states that only telepathy and magic can affect Juggernaut. Ears are sensitive and pain doesn't always equal damage.

All energy is transferable. Sound (as you know) is a form of energy, it just requires a medium to travel through.

Where is this stated, and what is it referring to? In the comic, Juggernaut is wearing his protective skull cap that has the same psionic blocking properties as his helmet and he is still effected.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I disagree.

The premise of Juggernaut has always been that that he is physically invulnerable, but certain attacks, be they magical or mental, effect him.

People are confusing the effects of sonics; sonics are not simply a concussive attack. The properties of sonics are multi-faceted.

There are soundwaves of such a magnitude that they can shatter matter and cause shockwaves for miles, and there's also the sensory stimuli of sonics that directly effect the brain and central nervous system of people in the effected area.

A thunderclap in the real world can both shake a city and cause people and objects to fall over, as well as deafen a person and cause sensory overload. Multi-faceted effects.

Comparing sonics to other energy attacks is a lost cause. All energy attacks have different properties. I wasn't comparing sonics to other energy attacks I was stating that sonics as you have pointed out can effect someone physically by attacking systems withing the body.

What I was saying is that Cain has been shown stated not to need these same systems to function in that no muscles or brain to move muscles or no need of food or air. If that is the case then attacking those systems would in turn have no effect on Cain sense he would not need them.
Now this creates a paradox where Cain has shown he can be effected Nimrod and another instance where it shows suh attacks are mute via no flash or organs. This means that normally that higher feat is taken in the lower one thrown away. Unless it is an example of a character doing something that is completely beyond their power set but this isn't one of those.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Where is this stated, and what is it referring to? In the comic, Juggernaut is wearing his protective skull cap that has the same psionic blocking properties as his helmet and he is still effected. It is stated in bio on the marvel site that if he had his shield up the attack would be probably not work.

"Probably"?

Thats' not very conclusive.

Originally posted by newjak86
I wasn't comparing sonics to other energy attacks I was stating that sonics as you have pointed out can effect someone physically by attacking systems withing the body.

What I was saying is that Cain has been shown stated not to need these same systems to function in that no muscles or brain to move muscles or no need of food or air. If that is the case then attacking those systems would in turn have no effect on Cain sense he would not need them.
Now this creates a paradox where Cain has shown he can be effected Nimrod and another instance where it shows suh attacks are mute via no flash or organs. This means that normally that higher feat is taken in the lower one thrown away. Unless it is an example of a character doing something that is completely beyond their power set but this isn't one of those.


Using that train of thought, telepathy shouldn't work either, because Juggernaut doesn't need a brain, but we both know the answer to that.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Using that train of thought, telepathy shouldn't work either, because Juggernaut doesn't need a brain, but we both know the answer to that. Why not because as i stated before in Marvel it seems the actual TP seems more a non-physical power as in it seems. Just look at some of things TP users can do go the the Astral Plane and most magic users and Cosmic beings have TP.

Originally posted by newjak86
Why not because as i stated before in Marvel it seems the actual TP seems more a non-physical power as in it seems. Just look at some of things TP users can do go the the Astral Plane and most magic users and Cosmic beings have TP.

Telepathy is an energy attack, just as sonics are. Telepathy is also an extra sensory ability. Sonics are a sensory stimuli.

In order for telepathy to work, certain sensory implements in a person's brain and stimuli need to be used. Some alien races in Marvel are immune to telepathy because they do not have the physical implements necessary in their brains for the stimuli to take effect.

Thought is simply a form of energy at a certain frequency.

As for ascending to the Astral Plane, that really has no precedence in the argument.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Telepathy is an energy attack, just as sonics are. Telepathy is also an extra sensory ability. Sonics are a sensory stimuli.

In order for telepathy to work, certain sensory implements in a person's brain and stimuli need to be used. Some alien races in Marvel are immune to telepathy because they do not have the physical implements necessary in their brains for the stimuli to take effect.

Thought is simply a form of energy at a certain frequency.

As for ascending to the Astral Plane, that really has no precedence in the argument. Heat is an energy attack that doesn't effect Cain

Magic and cosmic power are energy attacks but they can effect Cain thus your argument has no precedence one form of energy can work but others can't.

The Astral Plane I used to highlight a point that TP is often not associated with just effecting the brain. Now people can still effect the brain and have TP-like abilities but don't have true TP. Magneto is one he can effect people's brains by messing with the nervous system but can not read people's minds or go to the Astral Plane why. Because with TP users they seem to effect something else the mind which is different from the brain.

The brain is the organ the mind is like a par of the soul that is used to house everything now the mechanics and ideas behind it are more theoretical than fact but in Marvel alot of theoretical stuff happens this seems to be one of them. True Tp users seem to possess the power to read minds and go the Astral Plane.
Another point adding to this notion that TP simply isn't a force just effecting the mind quite a few TP users seem that power rooted in magic or cosmic power.

This is just my opinion and is subject to criticism but there is evidence to supprt as I've stated.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/8575/pdvd0013xl.png

colossus does alright grabbing him there. but juggy throws his ass down after that. so yah id say it does take mrore than one for sure

Thats the cartoon, meaning it's not cannon.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Where is this stated, and what is it referring to? In the comic, Juggernaut is wearing his protective skull cap that has the same psionic blocking properties as his helmet and he is still effected.

It doesn't have the same properties. It offers some resistance, but doesn't come close to his normal helmet, and is made of different material.

And I don't get why the whole "sensory overload" thing is still being disputed. Y'all are talking like all those "Colossi" are gonna come at Juggernaut with tuning forks or something.

Originally posted by Tron
It doesn't have the same properties. It offers some resistance, but doesn't come close to his normal helmet, and is made of different material.

And I don't get why the whole "sensory overload" thing is still being disputed. Y'all are talking like all those "Colossi" are gonna come at Juggernaut with tuning forks or something.

From Marvel.com



http://www.marvel.com/universe/Juggernaut_%28Cain_Marko%29

It's composed of the same material brotha.

Originally posted by newjak86
Heat is an energy attack that doesn't effect Cain

Magic and cosmic power are energy attacks but they can effect Cain thus your argument has no precedence one form of energy can work but others can't.

The Astral Plane I used to highlight a point that TP is often not associated with just effecting the brain. Now people can still effect the brain and have TP-like abilities but don't have true TP. Magneto is one he can effect people's brains by messing with the nervous system but can not read people's minds or go to the Astral Plane why. Because with TP users they seem to effect something else the mind which is different from the brain.

The brain is the organ the mind is like a par of the soul that is used to house everything now the mechanics and ideas behind it are more theoretical than fact but in Marvel alot of theoretical stuff happens this seems to be one of them. True Tp users seem to possess the power to read minds and go the Astral Plane.
Another point adding to this notion that TP simply isn't a force just effecting the mind quite a few TP users seem that power rooted in magic or cosmic power.

This is just my opinion and is subject to criticism but there is evidence to supprt as I've stated.

Heat is also energy, but it doesn't effect you the way high frequency sonics do, which I'm sure you know.

They (sonics) have already been shown to work.

So have physical means(Onslaught saga) does that mean that it was written or portrayed correctly?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Heat is also energy, but it doesn't effect you the way high frequency sonics do, which I'm sure you know.

They (sonics) have already been shown to work.

You know what's wild? What's truly wild?

Both heat and sound are vibrations... sound is larger things vibrating, like compounds, heat is smaller things like molecular or atomic vibration.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So have physical means(Onslaught saga) does that mean that it was written or portrayed correctly? If you want I can work on some BS explination ... such as starting off looking at what onslaught was, what he was composed of ... you know? What the heck was onslaught's armor made out of?

Originally posted by Creshosk
You know what's wild? What's truly wild?

Both heat and sound are vibrations... sound is larger things vibrating, like compounds, heat is smaller things like molecular or atomic vibration.

If you want I can work on some BS explination ... such as starting off looking at what onslaught was, what he was composed of ... you know? What the heck was onslaught's armor made out of?

I know full well who Onslaught was, was made of, and his power set. That still doesn't mean he should be able to physically harm Cain. Yes, he could easily defeat Cain with his TP, but by no means should that automatically give Onslaught the ability to physically damage him. Juggernaut took the god blast without so much as a scratch, yet he can just be physically damaged by a punch? If you think about it, it doesn't add up.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Heat is also energy, but it doesn't effect you the way high frequency sonics do, which I'm sure you know.

They (sonics) have already been shown to work. As stated before by Cresh heat and sound are both nothing more than Vibrations.
Next yes they have been shown to work but in another canon source Juggernaut was stripped of all organs and flesh and was still able to move without muscles, talk without vocal chords, and had no nervous system to send messages to his body. That means that in turn he doesn't need those systems to havehis body function properly therefore an attack on those systems should have no effect on Cain.

Which as I stated before being the higher feat is the one that is to be used.

Originally posted by newjak86
As stated before by Cresh heat and sound are both nothing more than Vibrations.
Next yes they have been shown to work but in another canon source Juggernaut was stripped of all organs and flesh and was still able to move without muscles, talk without vocal chords, and had no nervous system to send messages to his body. That means that in turn he doesn't need those systems to havehis body function properly therefore an attack on those systems should have no effect on Cain.

Which as I stated before being the higher feat is the one that is to be used.

I also stated that fact earlier in this thread, thanks for elaborating that for me.

Originally posted by newjak86
Ill the arguement with Nimrod is mute in only that Marvel itself says if he had his shield up the attack wuold basically have no effect. The big matter here is that Cain as a character has been shown to not need the basic needs of a human. Air to breath, vocal chords to talk and muscles or organ systems to function. Since in this appearance it seems that Cain doesn't need these things then it is therefore a simple idea to see that effecting them would in turn have no effect if he doesn't use them. While the Nimrod event seems to take these notions and dismiss them. what this leads to is a contradiction of the same character in two canon sources. This normally means on these forums that the higher feat is the one that is to be used. Unless it is an example of SvFL in which a character goes completely beyond their capabilites but in this feat nothing of that sort takes place therefore it can be used.
The simple answer is when he has it, it functions normally, and when he doesn't have it, don't matter. He eats and drinks for pleasure and I'm sure it doesn't just accumulate in his stomach. He's kind of like a living zombie in a way.

Originally posted by newjak86
As stated before by Cresh heat and sound are both nothing more than Vibrations.
Next yes they have been shown to work but in another canon source Juggernaut was stripped of all organs and flesh and was still able to move without muscles, talk without vocal chords, and had no nervous system to send messages to his body. That means that in turn he doesn't need those systems to havehis body function properly therefore an attack on those systems should have no effect on Cain.

Which as I stated before being the higher feat is the one that is to be used.

Heat and sound are more than simply vibrations, they are energy. They simply require a medium to transfer through.

Also, that "feat" is immaterial. If he doesn't need a brain he wouldn't be susceptible to mental manipulation, but he's been psionically put down more times than he's walked around without a brain.

The numerous times he's been put down by direct sensory assault far outweighs the one time he was a walking skeleton.

well, my theory works even if he doesn't need a brain because his memories and personality are abviously seperate from his brain when he is a walking skeleton so a psychic could still give the emotional trauma which i described. So it is possible yet that my theory stands.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Heat and sound are more than simply vibrations, they are energy. They simply require a medium to transfer through.

Also, that "feat" is immaterial. If he doesn't need a brain he wouldn't be susceptible to mental manipulation, but he's been psionically put down more times than he's walked around without a brain.

The numerous times he's been put down by direct sensory assault far outweighs the one time he was a walking skeleton. Yes sonics are an energy attack that need a medium to transfer through but your not getting it are you cain has proven not only in the Skeletal Bit that he doesn't need basic human organ systems to function. The fact he doesn't breath, means that his body doesn't need to take in Oxygen which by the way if you don't breath you don't get oxygen to the Brain and therefore die not Cain though.

Secondly he doen't need to eat or sleep as well which not eating deprives your body of essential nutrients which make the body function. No sleeping means his body should always be burning energy at a high rate through those materials. Meaning he would have to consume a ton of food for him to not be able to sleep but we already know Cain doesn't need to eat.
So yes his body doesn't function like a normal humans body otherwise he wouldn't be able to survive with what he is said by marvel to be able to do.

Therefore attacks on those systems would have no effect on him if you want to account for all his high end feats. If you want to go by one lower-end feat though go ahead there is other proof out there against it.

That's beside the point and flawed logic Newjak.

By your and the other's reasoning, that feat would also mean telepathy shouldn't work on him because he doesn't require a brain, but we both know telepathy does. It's not that cut and dry, which I'm sure you know because you've always displayed that you can look at things objectively.

Juggernaut operating without a brain does not discount all the times direct assaults on his brain have worked. The evidence is far more substantial that sensory attacks work on him than they do not because there are more occurances.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's beside the point and flawed logic Newjak.

By your and the other's reasoning, that feat would also mean telepathy shouldn't work on him because he doesn't require a brain, but we both know telepathy does. It's not that cut and dry, which I'm sure you know because you've always displayed that you can look at things objectively.

Juggernaut operating without a brain does not discount all the times direct assaults on his brain have worked. The evidence is far more substantial that sensory attacks work on him than they do not because there are more occurances. Not qiute as your logic requires that TP be a purely physical trait that directly attacks the mind. There are instances an in most occasions where this is not shown in Marvel. And that there is no seperation between the brain and mind.

For one alot of TP users have have roots in Magic and cosmic power like Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer.

It calls into question the the Astral Plane a place only TP users can get people to. If TP was a purely physical aspect then how can people seperate their mind from their body and see without the physical elements of their body helping them.

Also if TP was a pure physical element people like Magneto would have it. While he does hvae some TP-Like abilities he doesn't possess the finer aspects of it. Like the ability to read minds or go to the Astral Plane.

Originally posted by newjak86
Not qiute as your logic requires that TP be a purely physical trait that directly attacks the mind. There are instances an in most occasions where this is not shown in Marvel. And that there is no seperation between the brain and mind.

For one alot of TP users have have roots in Magic and cosmic power like Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer.

It calls into question the the Astral Plane a place only TP users can get people to. If TP was a purely physical aspect then how can people seperate their mind from their body and see without the physical elements of their body helping them.

Also if TP was a pure physical element people like Magneto would have it. While he does hvae some TP-Like abilities he doesn't possess the finer aspects of it. Like the ability to read minds or go to the Astral Plane.

No, you're misundestanding my point.

I'm saying that in order to be influenced by telepathy the target must have a brain.

You can't use telepathy on a rock.

Due to the instance of Juggernaut walking around without a brain, your saying a being without a brain can still be effected by telepathy, because Juggernaut can be.

That's illogical, and untrue.

As for ascending to the astral plain, it's a matter of your consciousness leaving your physical body. It's still a transference of energy. It's simply a disembodied consciousness. Astral energy is still energy, and is still transferable, even to the state of matter, as X-Man has displayed.

That doesn't have any bearing on Juggenaut not being vulnerable to sensory stimuli as he's always been portrayed to be.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No, you're misundestanding my point.

I'm saying that in order to be influenced by telepathy the target must have a brain.

You can't use telepathy on a rock.

Due to the instance of Juggernaut walking around without a brain, your saying a being without a brain can still be effected by telepathy, because Juggernaut can be.

That's illogical, and untrue.

As for ascending to the astral plain, it's a matter of your consciousness leaving your physical body. It's still a transference of energy. It's simply a disembodied consciousness. Astral energy is still energy, and is still transferable, even to the state of matter, as X-Man has displayed.

That doesn't have any bearing on Juggenaut not being vulnerable to sensory stimuli as he's always been portrayed to be. I understand perfectly what your saying and what I'm saying is that in Marvel there is quite a bit of evidence to point that there is the mind and the brain two different entities if you will.

Infact your little explentation on Astral forms even helps my standpoint. seeing that in order for a person to have an Astral Form one must be able to seperate their mind from their body and exprience things without Physical stimuli because an Astral Form does not possess any of the sensory organs needed to take in inout.

Originally posted by newjak86
I understand perfectly what your saying and what I'm saying is that in Marvel there is quite a bit of evidence to point that there is the mind and the brain two different entities if you will.

Infact your little explentation on Astral forms even helps my standpoint. seeing that in order for a person to have an Astral Form one must be able to seperate their mind from their body and exprience things without Physical stimuli because an Astral Form does not possess any of the sensory organs needed to take in inout.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't see how a psychic's ability to astral project and leave their body has anything to do with Juggernaut's vulnerabilty. The ability of your consciousness being able to leave your body in energy form and ascend to another plane of awareness has no bearing on Juggernaut's brain being vulnerable to sensory stimuli on the physical plane.

Thought is simply a form of energy, and all energy is transferable.

It makes perfect sense that EM manipulators like Magneto or Silver Surfer would be able to attune to the wavelength, all energy is related. Hell, Silver Surfer has made thoughts into holographic images percievable on the physical plane.

Also, comic book martial artists have been displayed to grow in skill to the point where they attain mental abilities through discipline.

Prime example:

Stick, Daredevil's sensei.

It's a sensory ability.

Extra Sensory Perception, Extra Sensory Communication, and Extra Sensory Psychokinesis (bka telekinesis).

i've lost track of the debate. ill, you're saying juggs can be ko'd by overloading his senses and everyone else says that is not the case? is that what i'm gathering?

Originally posted by outarddwarf
well, my theory works even if he doesn't need a brain because his memories and personality are abviously seperate from his brain when he is a walking skeleton so a psychic could still give the emotional trauma which i described. So it is possible yet that my theory stands.
It would have to work something like that if people like Hydroman or Sandman can walk around as pure substances.

As for the organs, well... I thought my theory was pretty simple but nobody's awknowledging it.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've lost track of the debate. ill, you're saying juggs can be ko'd by overloading his senses and everyone else says that is not the case? is that what i'm gathering?
I think they're trying to say attacks on organs Juggernaut doesn't need shouldn't work, which is kind of silly. It seems pretty clear that his body functions normally since he can eat and drink and maybe, just maybe there's a high frequency that triggers ungodly pain.