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Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity?

No. Ecumenism is a recent movement.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

What?

Have you forgot a large chunk of history? What about the Islamic invasion of india? 600,000 people were killed in a DAY. Every living/moving thing was murdered.

Armanian Genocide ring a bell?
Mass persecution and murder of Jews around Arabia since the raise of Islam till...well now?

If you're already going to talk about crimes commited in the name of religion, at least include ALL religions.

Destruction of twin towers had nothing to do with religion. Its a political not a religious issue!

Because when someone blows something up in the name of God or Allah, it's not a religious issue.

What?

Have you forgot a large chunk of history? What about the Islamic invasion of india? 600,000 people were killed in a DAY. Every living/moving thing was murdered.

Armanian Genocide ring a bell?
Mass persecution and murder of Jews around Arabia since the raise of Islam till...well now?

If you're already going to talk about crimes commited in the name of religion, at least include ALL religions.




I wrote this under exhaustion, it was the last thread i made before i took a nap...ofcourse there are so many examples i could have listed, but there are toooo many to include for myself.....thanks for including THESE.....

I only wrote those that came to mind.....those that i am FAMILIAR with...am i familar with Armenian genocide? No...thats y i didnt include it...im not a history professor, i apologize, but i always welcome more information on the topic.



Destruction of twin towers had nothing to do with religion. Its a political not a religious issue!



The way the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust was not a religous issue ?


It's not just a political issue, it is also a religious one. Ofcourse to Bin Ladin its all political, but to many of his lowest followers who actually beleive they are going to Heaven for this, YES its a RELIGIOUS issue.....


Barbara Walters interviewed an Arab would-be terrorist, i forget which country he comes from exactly..again sorry...point is he is a Muslim Extremist and he beleives that those who are not part of his Faith will burn in Hell, and that he will get 72 Virgins to mate with in Heaven when he dies.


Yes, Moderator, its 9/11 is a RELIGIOUS issue as well.

Heard this joke?

Bin Laden dies and goes to heaven. He's met there by Allah who says, "follow me to your just reward" They go into a room where George Washington walks in and proceeds to beat Bin Laden to a pulp, afterwards James Madison follows and starts kicking him, Jefferson walks in and gives him another pounding.

Bruised, broken, and bloody, Bin Laden looks at Allah as the door opens admitting another American founding father. Bin Laden asks, "what is this? Where is my reward?"

Allah looks at him and says, "Oh, you thought I said 72 virgins would be waiting for you. Sorry, I actually said Virginians."

Any man-made religion (or God-made religion corrupted by man) will have it's share of religious "crime"

I don't know why it is that religious views are the source of so much hatred. Eastern religions do pretty well about avoiding that. Aside from the beliefs of Imperial Japan, most eastern religions are all about non-attachment and calm.

Western religious texts definitely profess peace, but the followers seldom seem to pay much attention when those get in the way.

That's a sad reality, but thanks for enlightening us Docb77.....

Estern religion have thier poblems too, there is a long history of buddhist/Hindu conflicts in Southeast Asia.

I don't see the Nazi persecution of Jews anywhere, nor the Russian hate crimes against Jews. This thread fails....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws

The Inquisition and Crusades can be considered religious crimes, I suppose. Death to Native Americans and Irish and Arabs? How is that a religious crime? Pedophilia against young boys is not a religious crime, it's just plain crime.

The Salem Witch Trials are just stupid.

When people are executed, I prefer to use a bit stronger terminology thatn "just stupid"

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....

I will repeat myself, there is no such thing as religious crimes (unless you are stanist). Not Christian, nor Jewish nor muslim religion accepts violance. You can't call anything criminals or terrorists do a religious crime. By this logic if you kill someone this would be religious crime only because the killer (you) was a believer.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Because when someone blows something up in the name of God or Allah, it's not a religious issue.



No it's not, it only means that the one who made it is a bastard and really thinks that God or Allah would approve what he did. It is a question of sanity. Religion don't make people terrorists, these people just are terrirists from the beginning and they are trying to excuse their acts with religion.

Religion does wants conversion to get it's unity.......That's not peaceful, and won't work.

Although religion sometimes plays an important role, so do a variety of cultural, political and historical factors. Leaders use differences over faith as a way of sowing hatred and mobilising support for political wars. Religion sometimes is a cause for conflict, sometimes it simply helps sustain conflict, and other times it is used as a pretext for conflicts that have deeper roots in other issues.

Originally posted by Storm
Although religion sometimes plays an important role, so do a variety of cultural, political and historical factors. Leaders use differences over faith as a way of sowing hatred and mobilising support for political wars. Religion sometimes is a cause for conflict, sometimes it simply helps sustain conflict, and other times it is used as a pretext for conflicts that have deeper roots in other issues.

The cause for conflicts usualy are politics, they use religion to manipulate trusting people. But religion itself never approve violance.

The OT does...

OT?...

Originally posted by Sam Z
OT?...

Original Trilogy....debbie is a Star Wars fan.....

Joking beside...it is Old Testament....the older part of the Bible.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Original Trilogy....debbie is a Star Wars fan.....

Joking beside...it is Old Testament....the older part of the Bible.

Original Trilogy kicks ass.

The Old Testament!!

And though it has been mentioned to me, I do not post like Yoda speaks!!

Originally posted by debbiejo
The Old Testament!!

And though it has been mentioned to me, I do not post like Yoda speaks!!

No, Yoda makes sense.

Enlightened people understand me............go figure...........

Originally posted by debbiejo
Enlightened people understand me............go figure...........

No they don't.

Well, understand maybe, but not really value your OPINION...yes, opinion....not more.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Because when someone blows something up in the name of God or Allah, it's not a religious issue.



Oh please, that is the stupidest thing I have ever read.

Thats like saying when George Bush said that they will have a ''Crusaide'', the war in Iraq is religious issue.

Osama Bin Laden didn't randomly decide to have Jihad on America, thus its nothing to do with religion.
There are money and politics involved and Allah as been used as a means of gaining more Muslim support.

Comparing this to Crusaids for example or Ottoman empire is ridiculous. Both of these were IN THE NAME OF SPREADING Christianity and Islam.

Muslims didn't invade India randomly - they wanted to spread religion, through any means found.

Osama didnt want to ''spread'' islam in America through blowing up the Twin Towers - he wanted to prove a point/have revenge.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No they don't.

Well, understand maybe, but not really value your OPINION...yes, opinion....not more. Who values you???..........You don't even know if you exist.........

At least my opinions have depth brawny boy.........

..........good job lil b.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....

Religion is not to blame. If there was no religion we humans would have found so other excuse. Religion is not the problem, people are the problem.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Who values you???..........You don't even know if you exist.........

At least my opinions have depth brawny boy.........

..........good job lil b.

No ...no they don't.

Lil b> I'd say that attack in the name of a God can be seen as religious attacks. I mean what is the difference between teh Crusades and Fundamentalist Terrorism? Matter of fact is Crusades were politics as well....Inquisition was basically politics....

But you can't really blame Religion as such for all thiose events. Mistakes were made, and they were often made in teh name of God....but if it wasn't for God it would have been for something else...Money...Patriotism ...etc.

But they use god to side the people......And YES many people believe they are doing god a favor..........

and No, no they don't.........

Originally posted by debbiejo
But they use god to side the people......And YES many people believe they are doing god a favor..........

Yeah I know, but is that really the fault of Religion?

Originally posted by debbiejo

and No, no they don't.........

Yeah...that's what I said...good that we agree.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah I know, but is that really the fault of Religion?



Yeah...that's what I said...good that we agree.

It's not the founders of religions fault in most cases, but it has been used as a tool.........

and don't twist my words..........Mr. I don't really exist......."Prove IT'.......haha

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....


"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men." - Voltaire

Religion is a broken system and in the future I hope it becomes a thing of the past.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It's not the founders of religions fault in most cases, but it has been used as a tool.........

and don't twist my words..........Mr. I don't really exist......."Prove IT'.......haha

Yeah...just like money, patriotism, race and many, many other things.

I didn't twist your words. You really said that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No ...no they don't.

Lil b> I'd say that attack in the name of a God can be seen as religious attacks. I mean what is the difference between teh Crusades and Fundamentalist Terrorism? Matter of fact is Crusades were politics as well....Inquisition was basically politics....

But you can't really blame Religion as such for all thiose events. Mistakes were made, and they were often made in teh name of God....but if it wasn't for God it would have been for something else...Money...Patriotism ...etc.

See this is where I see the differance.

The attack on Twin Towers was not motivated by religion, but by politics. Ottoman Empire was motivated by religious expantion, as were Crusaids.

Roman's for example expanded under no particular religious agenda - they simply expanded for wealth and land.

Osama used religion to attract followers ''It is us and it is them - east and west, islam and christianity, good and bad..'' etc etc etc.

I just felt THAT particular example just didn't fit in.

Religious crimes examples would be -

Murder of Theo Van Gogh few years back
Persecution of Scientists by Church
Riots and few deaths due to muhammad cartoons
Human Sacrifices
Israel/Palestine wars and the suicide bombers on both sides.

Christianity as a strong religious grounds for murder is slowly dying, imho.

Hmm, I can see your point, but I still think it is a very thin line and it could count either way.

"It is a just retribution for improper sexual misconduct"



"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."


And my personal fav

"There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"

yeah yeah, you say that to her..........

Originally posted by debbiejo
yeah yeah, you say that to her..........

Because she is an intelligent being that has a valuable opinion.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Because she is an intelligent being that has a valuable opinion. Ouch!!...........................Oh you kill me.

cry.......NOT

Religion is a fool's concept.

Religion ist ein Dummkopfkonzept.

Originally posted by Aziz!
Religion is a fool's concept.

Religion ist ein Dummkopfkonzept.

Not all religions.

My claim is that many Religions aren't working.

Ofcourse people would find other reasons to commit such horrible crimes, but religious text like the Bible and Quran have contradictory passages which would give excuse for someone to kill.

The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill", yet it says homosexuality is "detestable and punishable by death"

Many religions have "lee way" when it comes to treating someone unfairly, and I assumed that the POINT of religion was to SERVE as a UNIFIER and better our world.


Take a look at all the CRIMES THAT ALL OF US HAVE MENTIONED......the examples I used, and the examples that All of you guys added (thanks btw)


How well has Christianity, Judaism, and Islam (and any other religion that you feel should be included) served our world in the past few thousand years ???????

religion in concept is not wrong/may even be totally functional. Its all this organized religoin stuff that washes any benifit it migh thave down the drain. and yes, ALL organized religions are guilty of it.

and Star Was kicks punk

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
was motivated by religious expantion, as were Crusaids.

Not all of them.


I think the reason Religion causes problems is because it's a ritual. Sit down, stand up etc.

"Oh look there's some guy we don't like!! We've been too busy sitting down and standing up and following code that we don't realize that our religion teaches AGAINST what we are doing! But we'll do it anyways because we are blind!!!"
And then people are beaten and executed, wars are waged and more and more blood is found on the hands of those who are 'religious.'

again, its a product of organized religion, not the concept of religion itself.

I get exactly what you are saying, but there are parts of the Bible that one can use in an attempt to "justify" a reason for trying to promote the limitting of freedoms upon another person.

And then there are religous extremists who pull up signs saying "God hates f.a.gs" and "AIDS=God's Punishment" and all that HATEFUL BS......


And the Bible if FILLED with examples of how God has punished and taken the lives and privelages of the "children he loves".

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I get exactly what you are saying, but there are parts of the Bible that one can use in an attempt to "justify" a reason for trying to promote the limitting of freedoms upon another person.

And then there are religous extremists who pull up signs saying "God hates f.a.gs" and "AIDS=God's Punishment" and all that HATEFUL BS......


And the Bible if FILLED with examples of how God has punished and taken the lives and privelages of the "children he loves".

Examples for discussion please........

Yes, and those people are idiots.

Yes. Punished. As in they did something wrong to deserve a 'punishment.'

Example: A man shall not layeth with another man as he would with a woman, for the is Detestable and punishable by death"


Can EASILY be intepretted as gay people have to be executed.

Religious Extremists obviously would follow into this, and see ALL THE REASON IN THE WORLD to commit murder because of one quote like this.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Example: A man shall not layeth with another man as he would with a woman, for the is Detestable and punishable by death"


Can EASILY be intepretted as gay people have to be executed.

Religious Extremists obviously would follow into this, and see ALL THE REASON IN THE WORLD to commit murder because of one quote like this.

And that's why we have Jesus.




(waits for debbiejo to come in an denounce everything in the bible)

Jesus....to do what ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Jesus....to do what ?

Notice how he changed/fulfilled Old Testament law. Compassion and all that jazz.

Originally posted by Echuu
Notice how he changed/fulfilled Old Testament law. Compassion and all that jazz.

Ya, I just saw the DaVinci Code, so I know what really going on.

Jesus did preach more love than anything, yes.

But how come Conservative Christians tend to off his teachings and more into St. Paul's?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ya, I just saw the DaVinci Code, so I know what really going on.


You best watch yourself!!! I heard there is a buddhist version coming out They have Vin Diesel learning the path to enlightenment WITH attachments!!!!!



Urizen>........I wouldn't say that. I would say that many have gone off the deep end in general. Starting a website that says 'GOD HATES ****' is the most stupid thing ever. Do you actually think Jesus would be seen doing something like that?

As for 'men must have short hair, women have long.' That was what perverse people in Greece were doing with their hair at the time. Paul was warning Christians of that and telling them to set themselves apart.

It's not God or Jesus that I am attacking, nor Christians in general.

Like I said, I went to St. Francis Prep a Francisican tradition Catholic school, and i LOVED IT...


It's Conservative, Bible thumping, red state Christians that i usually have a problem with ...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's not God or Jesus that I am attacking, nor Christians in general.

Like I said, I went to St. Francis Prep a Francisican tradition Catholic school, and i LOVED IT...


It's Conservative, Bible thumping, red state Christians that i usually have a problem with ...

Oh ok. News to me.

I agree. They can be quite obnoxious.

OHHHHHHHHHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHH

Originally posted by Echuu
You best watch yourself!!! I heard there is a buddhist version coming out They have Vin Diesel learning the path to enlightenment WITH attachments!!!!! ...


Ya I know, I'm staring in it.

VIN DIESEL IS SEXY

and also pro gay lol

Originally posted by Echuu
They can be quite obnoxious.

The biggest understatement since 1980.

Originally posted by Alliance
The biggest understatement since 1980.
What happened in 1980?

Reagan. It wasn't really a reference to a "bigger" understatement, just a reference to the rise of ultra-often-religious-based-consevatism in the US.

MY Grandfather is conservative, very much so, and my father is a bit as well.

I'm like 95% Liberal, lol what a funny situation right ?

Originally posted by Echuu
And that's why we have Jesus.
(waits for debbiejo to come in an denounce everything in the bible) I never said Jesus didn't have good things to say.........It's just the rest of the bible and that heretic Paul......

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
MY Grandfather is conservative, very much so, and my father is a bit as well.

I'm like 95% Liberal, lol what a funny situation right ?

Not really, people wh are more intelligent and who have more education tend to be more liberal...I'd say, its a somewhat predictable situation!

It just nice to know things can change.

Originally posted by Alliance
Not really, people wh are more intelligent and who have more education tend to be more liberal...I'd say, its a somewhat predictable situation!

It just nice to know things can change.

I think it's age. When I was younger, I was liberal, but now I'm in the middle with a mix of both liberal and conservative ideas. Will I become more conservative? Perhaps...

I'm socially 75% liberal, but Im too fascist...that keeps my actual policy moderate.

I also like to compromise.

I may be a bit conservative but very rarely.

you know the movie "Hostel" ? I don't think there is any point to that movie being made or shown. It is just a SADIST's fantasy movie.

I'm veryyyy against anything that depicts Torture JUST for the SAKE of torture.

People may argue against me that it's an "art form"...ughhhh no sorry

There's no actual STORY, no lesson, no intelligent writing, its just a TORTURE MOVIE

A "How much gore can you possibly take, no one could ever possibly be more violent and disgusting than WE can be....."

No thanks.....in THAT CASE im sticking to traditional movies lololol

Well, we do have to put limits to our liberal ways. We don't want anyone to become so free as to begin killing everyone around.

Liberalism is not about killing bro, most Liberals are infact against the Death Penality.

It's conservatives in general who prefer Death Penalty.

Liberalism is not about absolute freedom.

It's about every1 having the SAME rights. If you have the right to DO, BE, and SAY this...than SO DO I .

The only LIMIT need be put when it HURTS another person physically or financially.

It' s time to put on the brakes. Stay on topic!

TO LIL BITCHINESS the moderator:




What?

Have you forgot a large chunk of history? What about the Islamic invasion of india? 600,000 people were killed in a DAY. Every living/moving thing was murdered.

Armanian Genocide ring a bell?
Mass persecution and murder of Jews around Arabia since the raise of Islam till...well now?

If you're already going to talk about crimes commited in the name of religion, at least include ALL religions.




I wrote this under exhaustion, it was the last thread i made before i took a nap...ofcourse there are so many examples i could have listed, but there are toooo many to include for myself.....thanks for including THESE.....

I only wrote those that came to mind.....those that i am FAMILIAR with...am i familar with Armenian genocide? No...thats y i didnt include it...im not a history professor, i apologize, but i always welcome more information on the topic.



Destruction of twin towers had nothing to do with religion. Its a political not a religious issue!



The way the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust was not a religous issue ?


It's not just a political issue, it is also a religious one. Ofcourse to Bin Ladin its all political, but to many of his lowest followers who actually beleive they are going to Heaven for this, YES its a RELIGIOUS issue.....


Barbara Walters interviewed an Arab would-be terrorist, i forget which country he comes from exactly..again sorry...point is he is a Muslim Extremist and he beleives that those who are not part of his Faith will burn in Hell, and that he will get 72 Virgins to mate with in Heaven when he dies.


Yes, Moderator, its 9/11 is a RELIGIOUS issue as well.

Hey does anyone know why we had 'the DARK ages'?

Couldn't many (if not all) religious films count as blasphemous ?

Yes. Portrayal of Jesus/Muhammed/God. Automatic Blasphemy on the parts of all responsible for the movie.

Yes but how many movie were made about Muhammad or Islam and people responsible lived?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Hey does anyone know why we had 'the DARK ages'?

Becuase Western Europe abandoned all pursuit of Classic culture, Scince was abandoned, and no stable political structures were present in Europe.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Hey does anyone know why we had 'the DARK ages'? I think it had something to do with the sun god.....

Originally posted by debbiejo
I think it had something to do with the sun god.....

Christians killed him.

But they forgot to take the one verse out of the OT..."SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"........

Sooo I'm still a believer in the great spere in the sky...............I know the truth!!!!............He comes every morning..peeks in my window..............voyeurism

The suns a dirty ....

Hey guys, btw, for more info on me..check out

www.myspace.com/darkalnyc

lol u can see wat a cooky mofo i am and see where all my weird thoughts SPAWN from lol

Originally posted by Alliance
The suns a dirty .... It peeks in your window too.......

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedifile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....


I honestly think religion is more about the promotion of hatred, rather than love and respect.

Originally posted by PrincessMary
I honestly think religion is more about the promotion of hatred, rather than love and respect.

All those events he mentioned have nothing to do with religion.
Again, it all about politics or some crazy fanatics that really believed they were performing God's will what's not religion's falt aswell.

religion is about respecting people who you think are better than you, despising those who don't.

Originally posted by lord xyz
religion is about respecting people who you think are better than you, despising those who don't.

No it's about making other people believe in what you believe and not by forcing them but by teaching them ideas of your religion.

I honestly think religion is more about the promotion of hatred, rather than love and respect.


I don't think that's the intention of religion, but that does seem to be the intention of many religious people, whether they realize it or not.




No it's about making other people believe in what you believe and not by forcing them but by teaching them ideas of your religion.



Don't forget about totally disregarding and tearing down thier beleifs as well, as well as limitting the freedoms of other people who don't share your Faith.

Personally I believe that Islam, Christianity and Judaism just look at the same God from different angles.

Humanity is flawed, and it is the natural instinct of any human being to feel the urge to enforce his beliefs on others. It makes people feel good and satisfies the ego.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Don't forget about totally disregarding and tearing down thier beleifs as well, as well as limitting the freedoms of other people who don't share your Faith.

tearing down? Nope. There is nothing strange that every religion call itself a true religion. And nobody will force you believe if you don't feel like it. Again, if you talk about homosexuality then it's not religion that limits your freedom but law.

Yes Sam Z, Law that is often based on Religious Beliefs.

Does that make religion wrong? NO....it makes the intrusion of religion into politics wrong.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes Sam Z, Law that is often based on Religious Beliefs.

Does that make religion wrong? NO....it makes the intrusion of religion into politics wrong.

True. Even in countries where leader of the country is also a leader of religion they use it as cover to reach their goals.

I know, that unfortunately that's what gives Religion such an undesirable reputation to many people.

I'll try in the future, however, to not think of religious people simply as "blinded"--i know full well that not ALL religious people are like that.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know, that unfortunately that's what gives Religion such an undesirable reputation to many people.

I'll try in the future, however, to not think of religious people simply as "blinded"--i know full well that not ALL religious people are like that.

I'm very happy to hear that. Honostly i am.

I am glad that this made you happy.

All I ask in return is that you promise yourself the same. I don't know enough about Islam, so i would have to do much more research on the religion before judging it (Although judging your Faith was not my intention)



All I ask, especially in the issue of Homosexuality, is that before you come up with assumptions of gay people and gayness in general, please do all your research.

A religious way of looking at it is only ONE WAY and too unfair a judgement in my opinion.



Talk to gay people, research sexual identity studies, and THEN your understanding of people like that will be MUCH CLEARER and your opinion MORE VALID.

That's all

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am glad that this made you happy.

All I ask in return is that you promise yourself the same. I don't know enough about Islam, so i would have to do much more research on the religion before judging it (Although judging your Faith was not my intention)



All I ask, especially in the issue of Homosexuality, is that before you come up with assumptions of gay people and gayness in general, please do all your research.

A religious way of looking at it is only ONE WAY and too unfair a judgement in my opinion.



Talk to gay people, research sexual identity studies, and THEN your understanding of people like that will be MUCH CLEARER and your opinion MORE VALID.

That's all

I'll keep it in mind, and i really don't judge about gay people only from religious way. It's just the subject we talk about here needed me to look at it from religious point of view. But I never believe stereotypes, so don't worry. I never judge about people by others opinions.

Awesome Sam Z

I must apologize for misjudging you. I thought you closed minded, but i am clearly wrong.

Take care

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Awesome Sam Z

I must apologize for misjudging you. I thought you closed minded, but i am clearly wrong.

Take care

Thanks LU. It was interesting to debate with you.

Awesome..i look forward to future debates.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spanish Inquisition

Salem Witch Trials

Crusades

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people

Pedophile Acts against Young Boys

Destruction of Twin Towers

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws




Question: Does Religion actually WORK ? Isn't one of the major goals of religion to promote Unity? What are your thoughts.....

Yes religion works, and one of its goal's is to promote unity, but people misinterpreting it's mission is what causes atrocities in the name of a deity.


Spanish Inquisition: Xenophobia of Jews. The Catholic Church perceived them as a threat to their hold on Catholic Europe and The Spanish Empire saw their odd/different practices as a threat as well.

Salem Witch Trials: Extreme fear of Satan. It was also a convenient way to get rid of someone you didn't like. All you had to say is "I think Sally is a witch." and her life was pretty much over.

Crusades: Desire of spreading religion coupled with greedy monarchs.

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people: The various White people who conquered the Americas (English, Spanish, French, Portuguese) came to make their Kings and Queens even more wealthy by acquiring gold, silver, and land. The also made it a mission to convert as many Natives as possible, and if they refused; they suffered a horrible death.

Don't forget about the White man's invisible ally: disease. Viruses alone wiped out over a third of the Aztec Empire, the largest such Empire in North American history.

I'm not too knowledgeable about the near-genocide of Arabs and Irish people.

Pedophile Acts against Young Boys: Perverts who only become priest for that reason. They know that line of work will give them direct access to young impressionable boys.

Destruction of Twin Towers: Attack on an ideology, while using religion as a blanket.

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws:Again, fear/hatred.

Quiero Mota, GOOD JOB !!!!!


I like how you addressed each one of those points.


However, if the goal of religion is to promote Unity than why has it taken thousands of years for a SLICE of global unity to be achieved?


Religious excuses are still some of today's reasons of why bigots and hateful/fearful people alike still cause massive disunity.

Maybe I am looking at it from a bad way: Maybe my idea of religion is that, "It's supposed to be a cure" or something.


Not that I beleive religion to be a cure for anything, but i think many religious people beleive that if everyone followed THIER FAITH that the world would be a much happier place...

And that ILLUSION promotes further disunity, because it promotes the slow ENFORCEMENT of conformity.


I strongly beleive that the SOLUTION can only be true in the event where everyone LEARNS to accept each other's differences, instead of trying to make everyone think and be like US.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, if the goal of religion is to promote Unity than why has it taken thousands of years for a SLICE of global unity to be achieved?

READ HERE It does a great job if explaining organized religion... or the Church.

Jonathan Mark, thanks that was helpful.

But not totally convincing..atleast not for me.


My main question is: IS RELIGION WORKING ?


Religion is being and has almost always been USED an an excuse for enacting violence or oppression on another person and/or groups of people.

There is no denying this.

You still can't deny the fact that Christianity has existed for about 2000 years, and the world is still in an unpeaceful over all disunified state.



Would you say that this is the fault of Humanity? Or Satan ?


The entire philosophy of religion confuses me in this aspect:

Which is stronger? God's will or Free Will ?


You know you can say the DEVIL tempts us, but why doesn't GOD tempt us ?

Why doesn't God promote HIS will through thoughts and feelings, instead of allowing Satan more influence on the Human race ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Jonathan Mark, thanks that was helpful. But not totally convincing..at least not for me. My main question is: IS RELIGION WORKING ? Religion is being and has almost always been USED an an excuse for enacting violence or oppression on another person and/or groups of people.

There is no denying this.
I didn't expect it convince you, but to give you an idea what the Church is about. Really it's a matter of balancing the Pros and the Cons.

Personally I'm not one for organized Religion myself... I don't even go to Church due to bad personal experiences that I'd rather not get into. But mankind brings this garbage on themselves, it is human nature to exploit religious beliefs to their own ends (or any other form of belief system).

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You still can't deny the fact that Christianity has existed for about 2000 years, and the world is still in an unpeaceful over all disunified state.
You also cannot deny the fact that Islam has been around for nearly as long... and the world is as you say "still in an unpeaceful over all disunified state," so do not blame all the world's troubles on Christianity. Also please do not think I am trying to wail against Islam, unlike most Christians I find it to be a valid belief. They worship the same God I do and follow most of the same ideals. Oh sure they have some matters of doctrine I do not agree with, but in the end those minor details don't really matter do they? Christians and Muslims alike are equally capable of committing horrendous acts and I would be wrong and horribly foolish to claim Christians are any better.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would you say that this is the fault of Humanity? Or Satan? The entire philosophy of religion confuses me in this aspect: Which is stronger? God's will or Free Will? You know you can say the DEVIL tempts us, but why doesn't GOD tempt us? Why doesn't God promote HIS will through thoughts and feelings, instead of allowing Satan more influence on the Human race?

This is a very good question one I have asked myself many times. Yes believe me when I say that I have doubts.

First off the fault goes to humanity. The Devil can not force us to do anything, but you see he doesn't need to. God has given him power over this world to tempt us, not directly control us. We are all given the ability to make the right choice.

This is the most I can get into it since I'm not much a Bible Scholar; however, THIS man here (the same person who wrote that big long explanation on Organized Religion) I believe gives a very good answer to you're questions... or at least my idea on the subject.

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
it is human nature to exploit religious beliefs to their own ends (or any other form of belief system).

I could not give a bigger applause!.

and FYI, islam was in founded the 7th century CE...so thats the 600s, thats not exactly close to Chirstianity around 0 CE

Originally posted by Alliance
I could not give a bigger applause!.

and FYI, islam was in founded the 7th century CE...so thats the 600s, thats not exactly close to Chirstianity around 0 CE
Ack my bad...

no prob

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
I didn't expect it convince you, but to give you an idea what the Church is about. Really it's a matter of balancing the Pros and the Cons.

Personally I'm not one for organized Religion myself... I don't even go to Church due to bad personal experiences that I'd rather not get into. But mankind brings this garbage on themselves, it is human nature to exploit religious beliefs to their own ends (or any other form of belief system).


You also cannot deny the fact that Islam has been around for nearly as long... and the world is as you say "still in an unpeaceful over all disunified state," so do not blame all the world's troubles on Christianity. Also please do not think I am trying to wail against Islam, unlike most Christians I find it to be a valid belief. They worship the same God I do and follow most of the same ideals. Oh sure they have some matters of doctrine I do not agree with, but in the end those minor details don't really matter do they? Christians and Muslims alike are equally capable of committing horrendous acts and I would be wrong and horribly foolish to claim Christians are any better.




This is a very good question one I have asked myself many times. Yes believe me when I say that I have doubts.

First off the fault goes to humanity. The Devil can not force us to do anything, but you see he doesn't need to. God has given him power over this world to tempt us, not directly control us. We are all given the ability to make the right choice.

This is the most I can get into it since I'm not much a Bible Scholar; however, THIS man here (the same person who wrote that big long explanation on Organized Religion) I believe gives a very good answer to you're questions... or at least my idea on the subject.





No i totally beleive that HUMANITY itself is responsible for its OWN evil...i dont blame this evil on religion OR atheism alike.

People who are evil are going to DO bad things regardless of who says what.

Sociapaths LACK a morality despite what religion or any other association teaches them.


I will definately check out the DEVIL link...it looks interesting.



I just find it wierd that God would allow his philosophies, our religion, to be corrupted so badly by people in power.


How does he permit people to murder in HIS NAME ?

Not only should God be angered that people KILL each other in the first place, but he should ALSO be insulted at the fact that people USE his name as an excuse to commit these kind of crimes.

and yet he lets it contiunue....

Infinite patience or...

Yeah......no i get it,,,

It's a reason we could NEVER comprehend.....or some bs like that

..or god doesnt exist

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Yes religion works, and one of its goal's is to promote unity, but people misinterpreting it's mission is what causes atrocities in the name of a deity.


Spanish Inquisition: Xenophobia of Jews. The Catholic Church perceived them as a threat to their hold on Catholic Europe and The Spanish Empire saw their odd/different practices as a threat as well.

Salem Witch Trials: Extreme fear of Satan. It was also a convenient way to get rid of someone you didn't like. All you had to say is "I think Sally is a witch." and her life was pretty much over.

Crusades: Desire of spreading religion coupled with greedy monarchs.

Near Genocide of Native Americans, Irish, and many Arab people: The various White people who conquered the Americas (English, Spanish, French, Portuguese) came to make their Kings and Queens even more wealthy by acquiring gold, silver, and land. The also made it a mission to convert as many Natives as possible, and if they refused; they suffered a horrible death.

Don't forget about the White man's invisible ally: disease. Viruses alone wiped out over a third of the Aztec Empire, the largest such Empire in North American history.

I'm not too knowledgeable about the near-genocide of Arabs and Irish people.

Pedophile Acts against Young Boys: Perverts who only become priest for that reason. They know that line of work will give them direct access to young impressionable boys.

Destruction of Twin Towers: Attack on an ideology, while using religion as a blanket.

Historical Executions of those who did not follow a Nation's religious laws:Again, fear/hatred.

Actually just was reading a bit of history, and in the OT Satan was never really mentioned much, though at the time of the gospel of Mark, which was written from about 66 - 70 AD, the time of the Jewish wars, Satan was just a word for evil, and was used to describe the rebellious unbelieving Jews. The other gospels took from Mark and added more to the stories making Satan more a real person. The church then applied it to all unbelievers such as pagans........And this is how we got Satan today....

Speaking of Lucifer, why are all angels male ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
My main question is: IS RELIGION WORKING ?
There are aspects which inspire goodness in people, but also aspects which inspire the worst sort of atrocities. Religion is at least as much a force for evil and violence as it is for good and peace.

I think Religion is equivelent to Politics AND Philosophy in terms of the power it gives and takes from people, and the power that people give and take from it itself.




I think Religion is JUST as flawed as our Politics are and as our Philosophies are, simply because its all HUMAN based systems.

Religion is MORE flawed than political systems.

Political systems are made by people for people. They exist as such.

Relgion systems are the same, but pretend to serve god(s). Its that extra divine "because it is so" element thrown in there that makes them so flawed.

Originally posted by Alliance
Religion is MORE flawed than political systems.

Political systems are made by people for people. They exist as such.

Relgion systems are the same, but pretend to serve god(s). Its that extra divine "because it is so" element thrown in there that makes them so flawed.

I will tend to agree with your post.

Religion is more flawed, but it is also more dangerous. For referance, look into SAudi Arabia's system of government, and its laws.

Also, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia..

The US...

IMO, Religions increased flaws MAKE it more dnagerous.

Originally posted by Alliance
The US...

IMO, Religions increased flaws MAKE it more dnagerous.

You missed my point.

Laws in United States CAN are ARE being changed. Laws in the countries above cannot and do not because religious law of Sharia, which is well over 1500 years old says that the country is to be governed this way.

Russia in the time of Tzar is another example..

Religious laws really don't change...I mean to change anything is considered tampering with the word of god.

unless you change it really really fast

Can't.....Religious people would have a fit!!

Look at that one new bible....the one that adds instead of "HIM" makes it "He/She"..........people are throwing tantums over just that.!!

i meant that if you change the "word" of god really fast, during the formation fo the relgion, no one cares.

How do you explain Vatican II then?

Hmmmm.......I can't remember what was changed with VII...was it birth control??

Still you have the protestants..........ya know