"a Prophecy that Misread, could have been"

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Legion_of_Maul
Was it true that the profecy was misread, heres what i think:

Anakin was to bring BALANCE to the force, he kills all but two jedi, and its just him and palps, making two jedi versus two sith.
Obiwan Trains luke to use the force and makes three jedi and two sith, Ergo anakin steps in and kills Obiwan.
yoda and luke versus sids and vader, then yoda dies. Luke fights sids and vader kills sids making is one sith versus one jedi, then vader dies and luke starts a jedi order of his own, but we realize there's more evil in the galaxy, so on so forth and (ect.)

Lightsnake
Balance to the Force is destroying the Sith, it's not a 'wipe out the Jedi to fight the Sith equally' bullshit.

Count Kent
Lightsnake's right.

DePWNZOR
How? Balance implies both sides of the Force are equal. 2 Sith and 2 Jedi fits the bill.

Legion_of_Maul
exactly.

Razielim
Then the force was pretty much only balanced for a year or so.

Legion_of_Maul
Hahah probably, or maybe longer, like when the sith fought the jedi it was balanced.

kamikz
Hmm, I thought that it was the dark side that disrupted the balance in the force to begin with...

Ushgarak
It is.

Afraid that this is not speculation, Legion.

Balance is nothing to do with equal amounts of Jedi and Sith. Balance is purely a force of good. The imbalance is the Dark Side. It is caused by the Sith. The Balance was restored when the Sith were destroyed.

Killing Jedi had nothing to do with balance and was nothing but pure evil.

Also, moving...

PVS
omfg here we go again with the frikin scales.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is.

Afraid that this is not speculation, Legion.

Balance is nothing to do with equal amounts of Jedi and Sith. Balance is purely a force of good. The imbalance is the Dark Side. It is caused by the Sith. The Balance was restored when the Sith were destroyed.

Killing Jedi had nothing to do with balance and was nothing but pure evil.

Sesse
No.

Mesa think there should be 2 jedi and 2 Sith! This so, because 2+ 2 = 4. And Mesa thinks 4/2 = 2.

Mesa has found balance.

Yousa are all wrong!

MC_GG
Bringing balance to the force means destroying the Sith because they unbalance the force. So basically Anakin did bring balance to the force by throwing Palpatine.

Alliance
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Balance to the Force is destroying the Sith, it's not a 'wipe out the Jedi to fight the Sith equally' bullshit.

I dont like that view. I think Lucas presents a confusing point. WHy have two sides of the force, but then say that the force is "balanced" when only the light side is in control?

Tangible God
By "balance to the Force" I think Lucas tried to imply "Stability."

There can't be stability of the Force if the Dark Side keeps f*cking things up.

Alliance
No, but imo the jedi f-ed thing up a lot too, like during the Mando wars and the Clone Wars. Balance (in general) means both sides are equal, with niether one outcompeting the other.

How is it balanced by only having one side in control? Its like a dictatorship, where everythign is happy because everone is forced to have one opinion. This also breeds rebellion, which could be molded to the perspectvie of sith/darksiders, construed to be "unbalancing" from the jedi point of view.

I like the word stable better, but then why did Lucas use "balance"?

MC_GG
In my opinion the Jedi were stupid in ROTS

PVS
people who will accept the true concept will do so.
people who wont accept it will not...and are really stupid.

:edit: @MC
imho the only jedi that came off as completely stupid
were mace's posse, which is the saddest and most annoying
irony of all since they are supposed to be the elete, so to speak.

Tangible God
The Jedi had stupid moments, but the Dark Side held a tendency to start wars, hence causing imbalance (or preferably, "instability"wink in the galaxy and the Force.

Alliance
Originally posted by PVS
people who will accept the true concept will do so.
people who wont accept it will not...and are really stupid.


Why can't I question? I think I have raised legitimate points.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
No, but imo the jedi f-ed thing up a lot too, like during the Mando wars and the Clone Wars. Balance (in general) means both sides are equal, with niether one outcompeting the other.

How is it balanced by only having one side in control? Its like a dictatorship, where everythign is happy because everone is forced to have one opinion. This also breeds rebellion, which could be molded to the perspectvie of sith/darksiders, construed to be "unbalancing" from the jedi point of view.

I like the word stable better, but then why did Lucas use "balance"?

Because you are looking at it wrong.

It is not two natural competing forces. It is one force that is meant to be there, and one that is not. The Light Side is what is meant to be. The Dark Side is nothing but evil and corruption to it. The Light Side IS the force of balance- things are balanced when it is in power. The Dark Side imbalances, by its very nature.

No legitimate points form your post at all. It only works if you are trying to personally re-write GL's own cosmology, which is not smart.

If you want to create your own story world where things work the way you want it, do so. But it is not so here.

.:Space Opera:.
its like throwing a stone into a calm pond. it disrupts the balance. the pond being the force and the stone being the darkside.

Darth Vindicus
Well let me give you all my take on this. The Jedi have an understanding and a respect for both sides of the force. The do study the darkside to a point to understand the coruption of power it can bring. They respect that the gift they are given to them is not only for them but to help everyone that may be in need. They can respect the darkside for what it has and can cause. Now the Sith on the other hand can not see the Force as a gift to help others. They do not respect it, that way. The force to them is a way of gaining more power and controling those around them. They in no way understand or respect the lightside of the force. So to kind of sum it all up. The Jedi are balanced in thier teachings and understandings of the force. Light and Darkside are respected. Balance. While the Sith have no intentions of understanding or respecting what the Jedi do. They believe that the dark side is the only way to go. Lightside is forgotten. Darkside is respected. Unbalanced. They never say the force is unbalanced. They say there is unbalance in the force. Meaning something within the force is not balanced, not the force it's self

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
Why can't I question? I think I have raised legitimate points.

fact: lucas created star wars
fact: lucas decides what is fact and what is false in star wars.
fact: lucas has stated that 'balance' refers to the death of the sith.
fiction: this is all up for questioning, since maybe someone knows more about the plot than the man who created it.

sorry for the harshness, but this topic has been posted many many times.
and all those times i have posted quotes from george frikin lucas
which states just what we have been saying: balance=no sith.
and then what? people refuse to accept it.
thats not 'questioning' in an intelligent manner, thats just being obtuse in the face of fact. erm

Alliance
I know Lucas' rights as the author to define what he meant. But, he did create a piece of art. All forms of art, literature, visual art, theatre, fim, etc, are constantly analyzed. They mean different things to different people and you can analyze works different ways, especially with literature (which is closely tied to SW). YOu can arrive at different interpretations, ones the author didn't intend, but if they're backed up its fine. THis is the concept behind the classic liberal arts paper.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
It is not two natural competing forces. It is one force that is meant to be there, and one that is not. The Light Side is what is meant to be. The Dark Side is nothing but evil and corruption to it. The Light Side IS the force of balance- things are balanced when it is in power. The Dark Side imbalances, by its very nature.

Isn't the force supposed to be like god, and the jedi the religous followers?

I know Lucas created SW, but that doesnt mean he's infallible. He can make mistakes just like everybody else, and may not always see a different point of view (which may be just as credible) on his own work. Lucas has clerly not always had a clear grasp of his plot, there have been a thousand pointeless threads on these things.

I'm sorry, but everytime I bring this arguement, people just usualy slam the book in my face and say "Lucas said so." I don't buy the dogma that only the artist can interpret his work, especially with such a pop figure as SW.
Originally posted by Darth Vindicus
The Jedi have an understanding and a respect for both sides of the force. The do study the darkside to a point to understand the coruption of power it can bring.
The Jedu constantly are talking about how bad the darkside is. If it si so bad, how come they use it? In TPM, Kenobi clearly gets mad at Maul, but that makes him a better fighter. Did he become corrupted by using the darkside?

And what defines lightside powers anyway. Do push and pull etc count as those? Becuase we have seen darksiders use those. Only things like force lightning and force choke have really been seen as "dark side only" powers.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance

I'm sorry, but everytime I bring this arguement, people just usualy slam the book in my face and say "Lucas said so."

yeah, i get that problem when i try to convince people that the world is flat. then they start up with their damn globes and nasa satellite photos.

Alliance
The shape of the earth is a fact. What we are talking about is art.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
The shape of the earth is a fact. What we are talking about is art.

no, because a fact of the plotline is that the situation is resolved at the conclusion: anakin has brought balance to the force by destroying the sith. you imply that the resolution of the saga is false and that basically the good guys failed utterly because now the force is not in balance.
thats ridiculous.

Alliance
If the situation was resolved, why do the sith return?

To me the end of the saga was balanced because you had a new fledgeling jedi order and a new fledging sith order. Neither had control.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
If the situation was resolved, why do the sith return?

they return? *grabs rotj dvd and watches ending* nope...just alot of singing and dancing and cheering and all that corney shit...but no sith no

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
If the situation was resolved, why do the sith return?

To me the end of the saga was balanced because you had a new fledgeling jedi order and a new fledging sith order. Neither had control.

So this is the Sith who are 'fledgling' in the sense of 'extinct', huh?

No wonder you have trouble with facts- you can't even see them as clearly presented.

They all died. That's kinda the point of the films.

No, you do not get the right to re-interpret. Han Solo's name is not Msrtha, AT-ATs are not made of jelly, and Balance works the way GL says, not you. Speculate about things that are unknown or umnclear, but this is neither. In Star Wars terms, it is cold, hard fact. Feel free to not like what GL says- but he speaks with absolute authority over his creation.

I don't know where you got your idea of the Force from, but what is presented here is how it is.

PVS
Originally posted by Ushgarak
AT-ATs are not made of jelly

are you sure?

Alliance
I can't belive you guys thing you can look at a piece of art and enforce one dogmatic interpretation.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
I can't belive you guys thing you can look at a piece of art and enforce one dogmatic interpretation.

this isnt a van gogh. this is a story with a structured plot.
a story with good guys and bad guys, and in the end the good guys
win and peace ensues and everyone has a massive orgy to celebrate.
the finality of such a story is that everything is set right, therefore you are wrong.
but feel free to misinterpret the films if you wish, whatever helps you
enjoy them to the fullest. just dont expect anyone to buy what you're seling.

Alliance
how is it that different. Literature has different interpretations, as do filme. Its all art.

I think Lucas' interpretation is childish and simple minded and that there are elements in his films that don't support it. Right is a point of view, its not some infallible iron plate you cant see around.

Interpretation is not misinterpretation, at least I look into the films as opposed to just blindly repeating what someone else said. You're welcome to your opinon as well. Just don't expect everyone to have your opinon.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
I think Lucas' interpretation is childish and simple minded and that there are elements in his films that don't support it.

the fanboy battlecry. i will cherish this quote always eek!

Trickster
You can interpret the characters, things that aren't clear (You could say Luke's gay, for instance), but you can't change things that are clearly outlined by the author. It's like saying that LOTR ends up with Sauron winning. That's simply not true. All you're doing is saying what you'd like it to be.

superbatman86
Originally posted by Trickster
You can interpret the characters, things that aren't clear (You could say Luke's gay, for instance), but you can't change things that are clearly outlined by the author. It's like saying that LOTR ends up with Sauron winning. That's simply not true. All you're doing is saying what you'd like it to be.
But what happens when the author makes a mistake?To have a balance you HAVE to have two sides.If he said stability then I would agree but he didn't.Anakin said it best"From my point of view the Jedi are evil."And good and evil,right and wrong are all dependent on your point of view.

Alliance
Originally posted by PVS
the fanboy battlecry. i will cherish this quote always eek!
How is that a fanboy quote? What the f**k?

The nature of the force i think can be very up for debate, its never specificalyl said in the movies thatits this way. In ROTS, the deleted scenes Kenobi says "There is a massive shift in the force, we all feel it." He didn't say the force is becoming unbalanced because the dark side is ganing power, its a power shift. as sb86 said, its a point of view.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
I can't belive you guys thing you can look at a piece of art and enforce one dogmatic interpretation.

I cannot believe you can forget the Sith were wiped out in ROTJ. I know which issue is the more troublesome here.

If you think Lucas' vision is childish, fine, though I strongly disagree. But that does not change the factual cosmology of the film. We are not talking about what balance is in real life, whatever that would be. We are talking about what it is in Star Wars, which makes it EXACTLY what GL says it is.

"To have a balance you HAVE to have two sides"

In Star Wars terms, that is wrong! And a misunderstanding of the concept of Balance within it.

Seeing Balance in a ying/yang 'equal amounts of good and evil' sense is completely wrong. It is not a sense of scales. It is most certainly not a simple matter of one thing being weighed against another (and would not be Ligt vs. Dark if it was), but instead a complex interplay of the way things work. GL sees 'Balance' and 'good' as interchangeable, likewise 'imbalance' and 'evil'. He supports it throughout the films with examples of the good side being symbiotic, living in peace with itself- i.e. being in Balance- and the evil people being parasitic, feeding on themselves, destroying each other- i.e. in Imbalance.

That is how it is in Star Wars. Not how it is merely thought to be. Within the storyline, it is how it IS. No question, no argument. Simple fact.


As for right and wrong being a point of view... no. Absolutely not. NOT in Star Wars. That is at the very heart of Star Wars, the very reason GL created it.

Don't apply the point of view line to EVERYTHING. Obi-Wan was talking about how sometimes the things you know have depended on how you viewed them. But that is NOT a clarion call for universal scepticism.

Star Wars is all about clear divisions of good and evil. It is based on black hat/white hat westerns, as part of that. GL has made a specific quote about the nature of the Force about how things must not become shades of grey- they are clear, black and white.

And as Obi-Wan said to Anakin when he said he thought the Jedi were evil: "Then you are lost."

Palpatine corrupted him to think that. That is the wrong view.

Legion_of_Maul
But the word balance mean that, Balance, not tilted towards one side (good) or tilted towards the other (bad). Its Balanced not unbalanced or biased.

Legion_of_Maul
Originally posted by Alliance
No, but imo the jedi f-ed thing up a lot too, like during the Mando wars and the Clone Wars. Balance (in general) means both sides are equal, with niether one outcompeting the other.

How is it balanced by only having one side in control? Its like a dictatorship, where everythign is happy because everone is forced to have one opinion. This also breeds rebellion, which could be molded to the perspectvie of sith/darksiders, construed to be "unbalancing" from the jedi point of view.

I like the word stable better, but then why did Lucas use "balance"?
Thats really good alliance....
See thats what i mean, by balance, you don't force an opinion on people.

Legion_of_Maul
Originally posted by Tangible God
The Jedi had stupid moments, but the Dark Side held a tendency to start wars, hence causing imbalance (or preferably, "instability"wink in the galaxy and the Force.
sorry for the third post, but if george lucas wanted the phrase to be instability i am sure he would have said instability; he had a thousand plus people helping him with the movie, and they obviosly threw other words in, but of all them he chose BALANCE, what does that make you think?

PVS
so i guess when someone has a 'balanced diet' it means that they eat 50% healthy food and 50% junk food. by fanboy logic, since obviously the only definition of balance is equal opposites and not a state of harmony and peace.

Legion_of_Maul
no, thats not even remotely related to what we are talking about.

PVS
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
no, thats not even remotely related to what we are talking about.

it has everything to do with lucas's story, and what you are talking about is not even remotely related to the resolution of the saga. so who's being inappropriate?

Legion_of_Maul
read my first post, thats all i'm going to say..

PVS
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
read my first post, thats all i'm going to say..

i'll just read george lucas' explanation since the source is slightly more reliable.

Legion_of_Maul
slight...but i think i am a cooler person, so trust me, i think i am thinking correctly, whoever that george lucas person is, he's not smart enough to write star wars...stick out tongue

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
But the word balance mean that, Balance, not tilted towards one side (good) or tilted towards the other (bad). Its Balanced not unbalanced or biased.

Again, you are stuck in this literal (and useless) definition of balance. Read my posts again.

PVS
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again, you are stuck in this literal (and useless) definition of balance. Read my posts again.

yeah. dont read mine. just read ush's

Legion_of_Maul
I read them all twice, and however a great statement it is, i still must concurr with the others...

PVS
perhaps jack and jill actually didnt go up the hill, but rather went skiing, and it was in fact jack who came tumbling after...since after all nursery rhymes are also 'art' and subject to the same absolute skepticism.

ESB - 1138
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
Was it true that the profecy was misread, heres what i think:

Anakin was to bring BALANCE to the force, he kills all but two jedi, and its just him and palps, making two jedi versus two sith.
Obiwan Trains luke to use the force and makes three jedi and two sith, Ergo anakin steps in and kills Obiwan.
yoda and luke versus sids and vader, then yoda dies. Luke fights sids and vader kills sids making is one sith versus one jedi, then vader dies and luke starts a jedi order of his own, but we realize there's more evil in the galaxy, so on so forth and (ect.)

What Balance to the force means is peace. With Sith Lords there is no peace. With Jedi they focus on keeping the peace. So by having Sith Lords the balance is thrown off. Basically to keep it in balance no Sith can alive which Anakin did at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Tangible God
For the hell of it, I'll reitirate:

In Star Wars, "Balance of the Force" means "Stability of the Force." A balanced diet to us is not 50% healthy food and 50% junk food. A balanced Force is not 50% Dark Side and 50% Light Side. Star Wars is a work of art, but the creator of it has intended it to be seen a certain way, where as the Mona Lisa or a Van Gogh or whatever was meant to be seen as different things by different people.

In a canoe, by literal fanboy terms, balanced could imply that, if both people are standing up and shaking the boat, it won't capsize because it's being wobbled evenly at both ends. Wrong. The only balance and stability you'll receive from that is a couple of waterlogged corpses.

Same with the Force. On the magic, all-encompasing scales of fanboy literalism, you have Light Side on one end, and Dark on the other. The Light Side likes to stand still, but the Dark Side likes to jump up and down and throw things at the Light, causing imbalance on the scale. If the Light Side booted the Dark off the scale, it would be free to dominate the scale and keep it balanced and stable.

The Dark Side rocks the boat and causes imbalance and instability.

Legion_of_Maul
hey PVS IT is a funny movie, cause its not scary, but it was a good book.

Blue_Hefner
Has anyone even seen the exact words of the prophecy?

Tangible God
Wasn't more of a rumour of a prophesy?

Legion_of_Maul
they only talked about it...


during the entire episode one.

drwerwer
I think Lucas many times has refered to Anakin as the chosen one since he brought balence to the force by killing palps and therefore destroying the darkside.

Ushgarak
Nope, no-one has seen the Prophecy, nor does anyone know what the Code is. Both are referred to but remain mysterious.

PVS
maybe we dont know the exact wording of the prophesy, but
we know that its about "the one who will bring balance to the force",
and we know that it involves immaculate conception, and that he's expected to be potentially the most powerful jedi.

but is their really more to know or did GL pretty much say it all?
honestly i think thats it in a nutshell. not mysterious at all.

Captain REX
z0mg! I totally know more than George Lucas about Star Wars, I think I'll keep with my views of things. no expression

Wrong!

Blue_Hefner
Originally posted by PVS
maybe we dont know the exact wording of the prophesy, but
we know that its about "the one who will bring balance to the force",
and we know that it involves immaculate conception, and that he's expected to be potentially the most powerful jedi.

but is their really more to know or did GL pretty much say it all?
honestly i think thats it in a nutshell. not mysterious at all.

As I read in ROTS, the chosen one doesn't have to be a Jedi. Perhaps it doesn't mean just killing sith.Perhaps it meant reducing the number of all force users.

PVS
right, but since the jedi have him, they expect him to be the most powerful jedi.

Ushgarak
No, that's not true.

QGJ clearly identifies Anakin being the Chosen One based on the high Midichlorian count- watch the TPM scene again.

It is clear the Prophecy makes out the Chosen One to be a powerful force user.

Blue hefner- nope, entirely wrong.

PVS
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's not true.

QGJ clearly identifies Anakin being the Chosen One based on the high Midichlorian count- watch the TPM scene again.

It is clear the Prophecy makes out the Chosen One to be a powerful force user.


im not sure how exactly we disagree on this confused

overlord
No, you don't get it.. Ushgarak always talks to people all over the thread. He never uses quotes, you can't just assume that he is talking to you. It's a special technique to find out what he is talking about.

PVS
yeah, i suppose you're right. i should know after 2 years, but i guess i have much to learn in the way of ush-isms stick out tongue

overlord
It happens to me all the time. I say something silly and then Ushgarak comes in after me and starts talking to (un)certain people as if I'm not there. He always throws me off guard, I really think I should go to Raz with this.

PVS
laughing out loud

Crease
Originally posted by Alliance
Why can't I question? I think I have raised legitimate points.

You can. Those with their head stuck up Lucas's @$$ forget what forums are about.

Crease
Originally posted by Alliance
I can't belive you guys thing you can look at a piece of art and enforce one dogmatic interpretation.

Get used to it.

Crease
Originally posted by Alliance
No, but imo the jedi f-ed thing up a lot too, like during the Mando wars and the Clone Wars. Balance (in general) means both sides are equal, with niether one outcompeting the other.

How is it balanced by only having one side in control? Its like a dictatorship, where everythign is happy because everone is forced to have one opinion. This also breeds rebellion, which could be molded to the perspectvie of sith/darksiders, construed to be "unbalancing" from the jedi point of view.

I like the word stable better, but then why did Lucas use "balance"?

Agreed.

Crease
Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
But the word balance mean that, Balance, not tilted towards one side (good) or tilted towards the other (bad). Its Balanced not unbalanced or biased.

Duh...Be careful, they'll start calling you stupid too.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Crease
You can. Those with their head stuck up Lucas's @$$ forget what forums are about.

Forums are certainly places where people with egos so monumentually huge that they think they can override GL's declarations about his own work get laughed at, yes.

Sorry, but all of you disagreeing with GL are wrong, for the simple reason that it is GL who sets what is right or not.

Why can people not grasp this simple logic?

PVS
useless quadruple post just to say me too, me too, me too aaaaaaand me too.
thumb up

Alliance
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Forums are certainly places where people with egos so monumentually huge that they think they can override GL's declarations about his own work get laughed at, yes.

Sorry, but all of you disagreeing with GL are wrong, for the simple reason that it is GL who sets what is right or not.

Why can people not grasp this simple logic?

Its not about ego, its about the right to interpretation. We know how Lucas defines his work, but by presenting it to the public, he opens it for interpretation. This is how all art works, literature, visual, dance, film.

Especially with a plot as epic as SW, covering six films, inconsistancies crop up. I like comparing it to novels, basic themes are presented, but you can go many different ways with them.

Good-Evil dichotomies are usually very unstable, and in the metaphorical SW universe, they don't always hold up either. Lucas has said what he thinks his art means, what he intended to do with the saga. That doesnt mean we can't point out inconsistancies in the Saga and in such concepts as the philosophy of the jedi and not that they contradict, possibly revealing a new message.

Ushgarak
For a start, you've really just been stating things that are not true, rather than pointing out inconsistencies.

Secondly, I really don't see any inconsistency at all that does not simply come down to you not liking GL's cosmology.

Sorry, but facts are facts. The Force is the way the Force is in Star Wars, as much as there are four legs on an AT-AT.

If you want to argue that GL's ideas don't bear relation to the real world, then fine, but that seems not really worth worrying about. But within Star Wars itself, his word is law.

Alliance
Thiks like the sith not being destroyed were my mistake, I was thinking in EU terms, which is not cannon/admissible into these discussions.

The term "balance" doesn't make sense. Any artist can't re-denotate every word he wants. If Lucas would have used the word "harmony" it would have been more sensical.

No apology is neede for factual evidence. AT-ATs ahve four legs. This is a physical concept. The force is an abstract concept. There are multiple interpretations of all abstract concepts that currently come to mind.

There is a connection between SW and the real world. SW is a metaphor. You can take this and stencil it onto the real world. Everything in SW is based on things Lucas took from his life. All art relects upon the real world. Lucas, like all artists, made his art. But is was publically displayed, which opens it to credible analysis.

overlord
I hope Lucas will never exidently contradict himself.. Countless of disciplined Star Wars fans' heads will explode.

Alliance
If Lucas wants to create dogma, he should maintain it.

Captain REX
In regards to the whole Balance dogma, he has maintained it.

If you don't agree with GL's word of mouth, that's your thing, cool, but you don't really have a right to argue a wrong point...

Crease

PVS

Crease
lol...Whatever gets you thru the day buddy. I'm a fanboy of whom or what exactly? I know I won't get an answer that makes sense, so I'm just thankful none of you bother with the Comic Forums. cool

PVS
a fanboy is the type of person who will argue with samuel l. jackson over how to properly switch on a lightsaber...or the type to tell george lucas that he's wrong about the definition of a word "balance", which he chose for that very context (peace and harmony/lack of disturbance).

thats what fanboys do.
you contradict the man right to the core and heart of his story, the simplest point of the plot. its not like i left it open for debate. he said
that anakin brings balance to the force by making the sith extinct. end of story as far as GL and all of his rational fans.

and yet you probably watch the films 10 timesmore than any of us...

Alliance
laughing so analysis means you're a fanboy. Please. Maybe watching the film more times helps you see the subtleties of it.

I think fanboydom is holding Star Wars so sacred that nothing can touch it...kind of like you PVS. Imo its fanboys dont questionin, they simply absorb.

You imply that you are one of these rational fans. But to be rational two things must happen. First, the claims must be sensible. Both my view and yours are. Second, thought must be invovled. While you just accept whatever you're told, I actually look at what GL said and examined the validity of his claimed. I looked for a second edge to the sword instead of simply flat out denying its existance. I think its there.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
Thiks like the sith not being destroyed were my mistake, I was thinking in EU terms, which is not cannon/admissible into these discussions.

The term "balance" doesn't make sense. Any artist can't re-denotate every word he wants. If Lucas would have used the word "harmony" it would have been more sensical.

No apology is neede for factual evidence. AT-ATs ahve four legs. This is a physical concept. The force is an abstract concept. There are multiple interpretations of all abstract concepts that currently come to mind.

There is a connection between SW and the real world. SW is a metaphor. You can take this and stencil it onto the real world. Everything in SW is based on things Lucas took from his life. All art relects upon the real world. Lucas, like all artists, made his art. But is was publically displayed, which opens it to credible analysis.

The only reasom 'Balance' does not make sense to you is because you are looking at it wrong. Again, go back, check, Symbiosis (Balance) vs. Parasite (Imbalance). The Light Side lives in harmony with itself. Balance. The Dark Side upsets and destroys. Imbalance.

The Force is a REAL concept INSIDE STAR WARS. It is an actual presence, not just a point of philosophy. It's just like there being magic in a fantasy setting. The creator of such a fantasy setting makes up the rules for the magic, and you cannot argue them. GL has made up the rules for the Force- and you cannot argue them.

Now, GL DOES inject many elements of belief into his story. He makes comment on Democracy, and the way morals shouyld be taught to kids. If you think all this is wrong, fine, argue that all you like. But that is absolutely not in the slightest bit the same as arguing the intenral mechanics of how GL's own Galaxy works. Arguing that is simple futility and very much looks like straight out arrogance- "I don;t like what GL says so I am going to pretend I can totally change how his creation works." Feeble.

And don't try and imply that those saying this are narrow minded. We simply aren;t silly enough to deny that red is red. After all, if I was not able to analyse both sides of an argument, I wouldn't think your views on Balance and how you think these things should work are all crap, would I? That's even if you did have the right to argue them, btw. I find your position shallow and without value. But luckily, as you don't have the right to try and argue such facts, it doesn't matter.

Crease, try and grt with the programme. This is not about opinions. If you want to say GL is silly to have done things the way he did, go right ahead. But this has been about facts, and no matter how much you want to say otherwise these ARE facts, undeniable.

PVS
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing so analysis means you're a fanboy.

nice try.

no, irrational analysis against the set structure of the plot and characters is the act of a fanboy. like for instance, if i sit here and argue that han solo was a woman, or that the death stars didnt actually blow up, but were transported to another dimension by palpatine just in the nick of time and are in fact undamaged, or that the good guys were actually evil and the sith really did want peace and harmony. stupid shit like that.

put it this way: if you contradict GL to the point where he would laugh in your face upon bringing it up, you're a fanboy. messed oh shit, i hate jeff foxworthy, and dont want to go on a "you know you're a fanboy when...." bit, so why dont you just comprehend the obvious and we can move on.

you are wrong, george lucas is correct, get over it, move on, find closure.

Crease
(Sighs)...First, I've never argued against "the internal mechanics of how GL's own Galaxy works". And unless I misunderstood his posts I don't think Alliance was either. I fully understand that when GL wrote the prophecy stating Anakin was "to bring balance to the Force" he meant that Anakin was to destroy the Sith. In Lucas's mind, and thus in the Star Wars universe, the Dark Side causes an imbalance in the Force. The thread starter stated HE thought it meant there should be 2 Jedi and 2 Sith. While in the real world that would qualify as balance, he was wrong. As a matter of fact Ushgarak's second post said it perfectly:

"It is not two natural competing forces. It is one force that is meant to be there, and one that is not. The Light Side is what is meant to be. The Dark Side is nothing but evil and corruption to it. The Light Side IS the force of balance- things are balanced when it is in power. The Dark Side imbalances, by its very nature"

You can find no post of mine that debates this. My problem is how a few here (including a mod) took offence to Alliance first post critiquing Lucas:

"I don't like that view. I think Lucas presents a confusing point. WHy have two sides of the force, but then say that the force is "balanced" when only the light side is in control?"

Seems a perfectly legitimate question to me. Tangible God then posted:

By "balance to the Force" I think Lucas tried to imply "Stability."

To which Alliance responded:

"I like the word stable better, but then why did Lucas use "balance"?

Apparently this statement makes him stupid confused Normally I don't take up another guys fight. He seems intelligent enough to defend himself, but this isn't the first time something like this has happened on THIS forum. While I can't speak for Alliance, I in no way intended to debate my "knowledge of the Force" vs GL's. It's his shit.

Second, I begrudgingly apologize for this post:

"You can. Those with their head stuck up Lucas's @$$ forget what forums are about."

Obviously a post like this doesn't help the situation, and I can see how one might believe ego played a part in it. This post is actually the result of frustration after realizing that, once again, people were inappropriately saying "Because GL said so". Ergo my Terminator parody, which attempted to show you what it looks like to criticize someone for criticizing someone else.

Lastly, it appears PVS wants to momentarily change the definition of "fanboyism" to suit his argument or lack thereof. But then again...He's entitled to interpret fanboyism however he chooses wink

Alliance
Thanks for sticking up, but certainly its not required. I think it is nice to get an outside/third opinon though.

PVS
Originally posted by PVS
"...Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..." -George ****ing Lucas

end of discussion

*posted in the correct thread laughing out loud

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