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This is not a battle. This is a debate.

Since my volumes of OWAW haven't arrived yet, and my memory is hazy, did a probe actually run through around 100,000 Daxamite Warriors with relative ease?? Kinda in a way to up their stock??
And then, did Superman and DD, run through these Probes like a hot knife through butter?? Was this before or after the sundip??

Did some writers actually sit down at a table, and discuss this?? Did they think this was alright to print?? Do they find Kryptonians to be THAT superior to their identical(barring separate weaknesses) Daxamite cousins??

And are probes relative equals to the Heralds i believe them to be highly based on??

Barring Dr.Strange and other magicians, could MU earth handle the Imperiex fiasco anyway better than DC Earth?? Or do they lose, because they lack Kryptonian defenders??
Surfer and All the living heralds, from canon are included in Earths forces.

OWAW is full of shit Uni , I mean at the beginning Supes and Mongol were having problems taking even one.

Later on a guy in a tank and Krypto were killing them....

OWAW was over all the place. I consider it a decent Superman story but it did make everyone else look like crap.

So no Daxamites were ever seen in OWAW?? Why would Jelly repeatedly say otherwise?? Talking to myself about this jelly character.....

And for the record, since OWAW was originally intended to be a superman event alone, does this mean they believe Superman can take on Galactus by himself??

Jelly who?

Some guy named Jellyrobes who posts at


http://www.superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=166&sid=5245e962a3e41cbb29af275c947ef29f

You think Whirly or Dvampire was bad?? Meet Jelly. He's articulate, but totally biased. Not totally unfounded though, due to the things DC has been printing for the past few years. Mr. I can do anything man has replaced Superman.
His defense of Superman is contradicting, but almost admirable. He really goes to bat for the guy.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Some guy named Jellyrobes who posts at


http://www.superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=166&sid=5245e962a3e41cbb29af275c947ef29f

You think Whirly or Dvampire was bad?? Meet Jelly. He's articulate, but totally biased. Not totally unfounded though, due to the things DC has been printing for the past few years. Mr. I can do anything man has replaced Superman.
His defense of Superman is contradicting, but almost admirable. He really goes to bat for the guy. Dude I just went threw a few of those thread. Yeah theres no bias there.

They have a superman vs 1000 silver surfers thread.

SHC is great. You can get a lot of info from that respect forum.

But yeah, Jelly is pretty nuts.

Originally posted by Validus
SHC is great. You can get a lot of info from that respect forum.

But yeah, Jelly is pretty nuts.

Pfft...they don't have a Alpha Flight respect thread.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Pfft...they don't have a Alpha Flight respect thread.
That's your fault Mungi.

Originally posted by Validus
That's your fault Mungi.

.....can you make one?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
.....can you make one?
Me? I only lurk that forum. DarkCrawler posts there though.

Originally posted by Validus
Me? I only lurk that forum. DarkCrawler posts there though.

damn, so that means I have to talk to DC?

One day I might repost the respect thread or just post the url to here

I been trying to join up myself, but the administrator never activated my account. I been dying to lay into Jelly.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Some guy named Jellyrobes who posts at


http://www.superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=166&sid=5245e962a3e41cbb29af275c947ef29f

You think Whirly or Dvampire was bad?? Meet Jelly. He's articulate, but totally biased. Not totally unfounded though, due to the things DC has been printing for the past few years. Mr. I can do anything man has replaced Superman.
His defense of Superman is contradicting, but almost admirable. He really goes to bat for the guy.

Please tell me how I'm biased? *walks back out shacking head at the angry Marvel fanboy*

Dvampire, in all the threads i've ever seen you post in, i've never seen you admit Superman loses to another, clearly more powerful marvel foe. Don't make me retread the Superman/Surfer threads......I really don't want to.

You're like another Eleveninches. And that says alot.

At least Whirly gives a reasons why, before he degenerates into blabbing about Superman being the mainstream hero for 60 years, the Icon, never loses........

And just because i don't pray at the altar of Superman, doesn't make me a marvel fanboy. DC gets 90% of my comic money. Ten years ago, that would've been 99.9%, but i gave Marvel a try. Know who you speak to, bruh.

And for old timessake, Vamp..........

Superman vs Silver Surfer

Superman vs Thanos

What are your predictions on superman's odds?

Originally posted by dvampire
Please tell me how I'm biased? *walks back out shacking head at the angry Marvel fanboy*
Should I tell you........

Hmmm. Is it just me or are Superman's odds against Thanos better than his odds against the Surfer?

Originally posted by Validus
Hmmm. Is it just me or are Superman's odds against Thanos better than his odds against the Surfer?
It depends if you really think Thanos isn't what he's made out to be.......Meaning that heros job to him to make him look good.

Originally posted by Skeets
It depends if you really think Thanos isn't what he's made out to be.......Meaning that heros job to him to make him look good.
Partially but it has more to do with the fact that Surfer has more ways to beat Superman than Thanos. Thanos is basically brute force while Norrin is so much more.

Both stomp him imo. Thanos for his unreal damage resistance and strength and energy projection.
Surfer for all three except his strength. And his sheer variety of powers. And speed, and mobility. Funny, against Hulk, this ensures Superman the win, but when the situation is reversed, denial abounds.

I'd put Surfer in the high class 100 strengthwise, but not the premiers like Superman, Hulk(enraged)BA and CM, BRB. Thor imo, is a lil weaker than the five i named, but his hammer and innate magic closes and maybe even surpasses the gap.
Surfer can possibly amp himself way beyond all named above, but he doesn't need to honestly.

Though imo, Starlin Thanos is akin to Loeb Superman. Highly efficient and powerful, while everybody else seems to suffer.

Originally posted by Validus
Partially but it has more to do with the fact that Surfer has more ways to beat Superman than Thanos. Thanos is basically brute force while Norrin is so much more.
Surfer's more about finesse.
Thanos is Brute force but he surely is more then that his TP is very powerful and he's an Eternal those facts about him get overlooked alot.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Dvampire, in all the threads i've ever seen you post in, i've never seen you admit Superman loses to another, clearly more powerful marvel foe. Don't make me retread the Superman/Surfer threads......I really don't want to.

You're like another Eleveninches. And that says alot.

At least Whirly gives a reasons why, before he degenerates into blabbing about Superman being the mainstream hero for 60 years, the Icon, never loses........

And just because i don't pray at the altar of Superman, doesn't make me a marvel fanboy. DC gets 90% of my comic money. Ten years ago, that would've been 99.9%, but i gave Marvel a try. Know who you speak to, bruh.

And for old timessake, Vamp..........

Superman vs Silver Surfer

Superman vs Thanos

What are your predictions on superman's odds?

The same thread is here too! Man alot of people are turning to Killermovies now huh?


http://comixtreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28201


And I don't get how you me thinking Superman can beat Thanos and Surfer makes me a DC fanboy. You and the other Thanos and Surfer support just can't stand it, but you need to get over it, I still say he can beat them, that's not going to change until I see something that makes me think Surfer or Thanos whould beat him and is way above him in power. And btw, I say Supes whould take the majority in a battle against them (one on one of course, so don't go try to mix up my words saying I think he can beat both of them at the same time, since you can't stand for anyone to think Supes can beat them), not Supes takes this ancsd10 rwkfr milliontnwoe timesfneuernw outeowwnmillion eeob against them like some fanboy.

Again, chill with the angry attacks.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
damn, so that means I have to talk to DC?

One day I might repost the respect thread or just post the url to here


I could make it......I made the spiderman one from Digis over there....if you want me to that is

Originally posted by UniOmni
Both stomp him imo. Thanos for his unreal damage resistance and strength and energy projection.
Surfer for all three except his strength. And his sheer variety of powers. And speed, and mobility. Funny, against Hulk, this ensures Superman the win, but when the situation is reversed, denial abounds.

I'd put Surfer in the high class 100 strengthwise, but not the premiers like Superman, Hulk(enraged)BA and CM, BRB. Thor imo, is a lil weaker than the five i named, but his hammer and innate magic closes and maybe even surpasses the gap.
Surfer can possibly amp himself way beyond all named above, but he doesn't need to honestly.

Though imo, Starlin Thanos is akin to Loeb Superman. Highly efficient and powerful, while everybody else seems to suffer.
I would agree that Hulk Vs Superman is analogous to Superman Vs Silver Surfer. That's a good comparison. Physically I think Superman and Hulk set the bar for top tier strength but Radd can slug it out with anyone.

Starlin Thanos is annoying but he does that with all those type of villains. Starlin's Darkseid is a beast which is why I'm glad he's back at DC.

Im still confused as to why SS cant just use cosmic awareness and make Kryptonite radiation, red sun radiation and then proceed to kick his ass??

I mean am I wrong in thinking that?

and about the actualy topic werent Daxamites just the same in powers and EVERYTHING except they were poisoned by having lead near them??

Post Crisis Daxamites are supposed to be slightly superior to your average Kryptonians. In any case, a probe killing 100,000 of them and then getting one shotted by Supes is certainly questionable writing. Not enough mental blocks in the universe to make up for that one.

Originally posted by dvampire
The same thread is here too! Man alot of people are turning to Killermovies now huh?


http://comixtreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28201


And I don't get how you me thinking Superman can beat Thanos and Surfer makes me a DC fanboy. You and the other Thanos and Surfer support just can't stand it, but you need to get over it, I still say he can beat them, that's not going to change until I see something that makes think Surfer or Thanos whould beat him. And btw, I say Supes whould take the majority in a battle against them (one on one of course, so don't go try to mix up my words saying I think he can beat both of them at the same time, since you can't stand for anyone to think Supes can beat them), not Supes takes this ancsd10 rwkfr milliontnwoe timesfneuernw outeowwnmillion eeob against them like some fanboy.

Again, chill with the angry attacks.

Didn't mean to make you feel attacked. Sorry.

Alright Vamp.....Lets do this...

What can Superman do to someone who has leagues better energy projection, is insanely faster, and is arguably more durable than him??

Can you please dictate how Superman beats this being?? That doesn't involve this being, dumbing down and going hand to hand??

Please explain how he wins....Just this once.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Didn't mean to make you feel attacked. Sorry.

Alright Vamp.....Lets do this...

What can Superman do to someone who has leagues better energy projection, is insanely faster, and is arguably more durable than him??

Can you please dictate how Superman beats this being?? That doesn't involve this being, dumbing down and going hand to hand??

Please explain how he wins....Just this once.

you see Superman is Super and he can speedblitz and survive 100000000 nukes at once.Superman also has heat vision Surfer can't fly without his board so he loses.....nerd

Sorry couldn't resist.........

Originally posted by UniOmni
Didn't mean to make you feel attacked. Sorry.

Alright Vamp.....Lets do this...

What can Superman do to someone who has leagues better energy projection, is insanely faster, and is arguably more durable than him??

Can you please dictate how Superman beats this being?? That doesn't involve this being, dumbing down and going hand to hand??

Please explain how he wins....Just this once.

How about restoring their threads instead, I'm not going to argue in a thread on a different topic.

Originally posted by Skeets
you see Superman is Super and he can speedblitz and survive 100000000 nukes at once.Superman also has heat vision Surfer can't fly without his board so he loses.....nerd

Sorry couldn't resist.........

Read more of the thread before trying to be sarcastic, there's some pretty good arguements on both sides.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Didn't mean to make you feel attacked. Sorry.

Alright Vamp.....Lets do this...

What can Superman do to someone who has leagues better energy projection, is insanely faster, and is arguably more durable than him??

Can you please dictate how Superman beats this being?? That doesn't involve this being, dumbing down and going hand to hand??

Please explain how he wins....Just this once.
If you've ever read Joe Casey's interviews about Superman, it's not hard to see where dvamp is coming from.

No need to do all that. Can't you just briefly post how Superman wins, and then i'll leave it at that?? Finding and resurrecting an old thread is too much work this early in the evening.

Vally, i think i may have. IIRC, one time he said that if he needs Superman to move a galaxy, then he will have him move a galaxy. He did the same for Majestros. If wrong, please elaborate Validus.

Originally posted by dvampire
Read more of the thread before trying to be sarcastic, there's some pretty good arguements on both sides.
No!!........jockey

Originally posted by UniOmni
Vally, i think i may have. IIRC, one time he said that if he needs Superman to move a galaxy, then he will have him move a galaxy. He did the same for Majestros. If wrong, please elaborate Validus.
That's basically it. His Superman is basically unbeatable.







http://www.comicboards.com/joecasey-rc.php

I just read the same interview. And while he may chose to write like that, it kinda disrespects the history of other characters. At least it does so imo. So even while sundipped superman maybe more powerful, if Thor can absorb all that extra power, and has done so to others many times, but when facing Casy Superman and doesn't, does that means he lost while fighting at his best?? Not at all.
Same thing with Surfer. Yeah, his chances of failure are greatest when he fights below his optimum.

So thats the gist right there.
Everybody else fights below par, while Superman operates above it........Any people wonder why the guy has haters/detractors?? Jobbing goes hand in hand with him and all popular heroes.

Considering what Imperiex represented, had sundipped Superman stopped him, i wouldn't have been surprised. Disappointed, yes at the predictability, but not surprised.

Vally, did you do all this to make me think Vamp is Joe Casey?

"Some guy named Jellyrobes who posts at


http://www.superherochat.net/phpBB2...9af275c947ef29f

You think Whirly or Dvampire was bad?? Meet Jelly. He's articulate, but totally biased. Not totally unfounded though, due to the things DC has been printing for the past few years. Mr. I can do anything man has replaced Superman.
His defense of Superman is contradicting, but almost admirable. He really goes to bat for the guy"



Ah THAT Jelly. I lurk at SHC, i know who the chap is.

Wirly compared with that guy is nothing bad. I actually see him with a good sense of humor overall. Jelly is just overall bad.

Altho Drizz its far worse than him, i can tell you that.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Vally, did you do all this to make me think Vamp is Joe Casey?


No, just that when you have writers like that who do believe Superman can beat all comers it's not hard to see why someone would have that opinion. OWAW basically says Superman is unbeatable with the way he was outperforming his peers. Of course, they were all running around like idiots but still.

OWAW was ridiculous, I mean ....

A. Galactus clone - Anyone who doesn't notice that is retarded , if i was in Stan Lee's shoes Dc would be looking at a hefty lawsuit.

B. Inconsistencies - Ahh , so apparently if a women dons cheap looking gold armour then she can suddenly take on beings which slap around God-Man (He is no longer Super , Super would infer limits , such as mega being higher) , and said beings seem to drastically drop in durability and overall power as the mini continues. I see , the suck must bleed into the comics the longer the farce is held out.

C. Doomsday - Yes , let's bring back a walking plot device only to have him killed.....then brought back again !

D. Brainiac - Send yourself to the beginning of time , great idea dumbass . Just forget that the source controls all the power released then. So even IF you somehow survived the ****-only-knows how big explosion then you have to somehow filter the power form an entity so high on the food chain it makes you look like a dust mite in comparison .

Originally posted by Validus
Partially but it has more to do with the fact that Surfer has more ways to beat Superman than Thanos. Thanos is basically brute force while Norrin is so much more.

that's actually a pretty astute point. i don't exactly agree with it, but it does seem to be the case. the reason i disagree is because i think thanos is further above superman in most areas than ss is.

here's a little conversation piece. this is how i would rank them relative to each other in some important areas:

strength: thanos>supes>ss
intelligence: thanos>>supes>ss
durability: thanos>>ss/supes
energy: thanos>>ss>>supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

intangibles are what i consider the ability to call down some consistently displayed feat that many consider pis of some sort. ie--if supes blitzed thanos and took him to the sun, his chances of winning go way up. ss may be able to put supes into his surfboard. supes may be able to trap ss in t-vo land. thanos may use his inconsistent matter manip and change them both to stone!

now, it's important to note: i am using superman at what i think are his most consistently seen feat levels and using his most consistently viewed powers. i know he can perhaps summon others (t-vo, stress-induced increases of power) but i'm putting those things under the intangibles.

as regards ss: lots of people think ss easily beats supes. i do not. i think eventually ss would win IF he used his speed to stay away from supes and used energy drain or k-nite, but it's a silly way to win a fight though hard to counter in an argument. eventually, doing that, supes would weaken and ss could beat him but it would take a long while. people in ss's corner consistently forget some of the CRAZY feats supes has done while: being blasted by k-nite, while having k-nite flowing through his BLOODSTREAM, while under a red sun, while battling uber-powerful magic-users. ss wouldn't simply blast him and win. he'd need to fight very smart and use all his speed. even then, if t-vo comes into play, i really don't see how ss counteracts it. and ss HAS been put down with physical force before. wm thor and thanos have both done it. ss would win imo if he fought very smart (and very differently from his usual style) but it wouldn't be a quick win, or a pretty one. glads stalemated ss when ss didn't use his weakness against him. i see no reason supes couldn't do something very similar depending on the style of fight.

so, what do y'all think?

You're wrong. I'm right. Deal with it.

I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.

That was alot to read.....disgust

I seriously don't think T-vo would work on Surfer or Thanos.Leo you bring up the K-nite weakness thing,that's not the only way Surfer would beat Supes that's just way easier.

Supes is just a strong guy who flies really fast his other powers would be pretty useless against any of the two.Originally posted by UniOmni
I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.
I agree with most of this but a little correction about Supes and Surfer's intelligents.Surfer before he became the Surfer was a pretty smart guy a scientist in fact but it was never really explored that much.Upon getting the Power Cosmic you're granted the knowledge in how to use the powers it was explained somewhere I forget.
Now Supes is a genius but it's never highlighted as thats what Batman's for.

Originally posted by UniOmni
I wouldn't put Superman anywhere near as intelligent as Surfer. For surfer to do many of the things he does with the pc, he has to be a genius. Intelligence, i'd put SS over Superman.

Speed, he far outclasses him as well.
Surfer also has the thinking speed to match if not surpass supermans speedblitz.
Energy projection, superman isn't even in the ballpark.
Strength, i know Superman is stronger. But if Surfer hits him, every bone in my body tells me superman would feel it acutely.

And why do people seem to believe that various highpowered blasts of PC wouldn't be enough to put Superman down?? Why must Surfer resort to knite??

Imo, Surfer wins simply for the same reasons Superman has hulks number. He's leagues faster, as if not more durable, energy projection is insane in comparison. Like i said before...For these reasons, Superman should always beat hulk. Why the difference now??
And since T-vo is such a power that its vague and unknown, and only appeared under one writer, i don't put stock in its ability to turn the overwhelming tide. Until it becomes a staple in the powerset, and appears under various writers, its kinda relegated to the Spiderman talking to other spiders thing.....Infamous and best forgotten.

yah, was a bit gs-like, skeets, sorry . . .

anyway, skeets made reference to supes intelligence already, so i don't need to get into that. as for blasts -- ss's blasts have nothing on the many many blasts and high level energy attacks supes as taken already. they're nothing 'new'. would they hurt? sure. but it's not like supes is slow either. he can absorb helladamage and dodge like crazy. i don't think a straight blast-em-up fight would be something ss would necessarily win. i also think you're wrong about the energy comparison. at least you're seeing it differently than i am. supes has used his vision to affect planets. that's a significant display of power. ss's is greater in magnitude, i agree, but i wouldn't say overwhelmingly greater in magnitude. ss doesn't go much beyond the planetary level himself. where ss has an obvious huge advantage is in the RANGE of his energy abilities. he can obviously do a lot more with his power, but again, i don't see the magnitude of it being enough to ensure he'd beat supes bby blasting him. that's what i was gauging in my comparison. i think he'd need to be a lot more creative than simple blasts to ensure a win. does that make more sense?

as far as t-vo skeets -- i sort of feel the same way, but avalon has shown some pretty impressive scans so it's hard to discount completely, though i admit it DOES smack a bit of pis power . . .

but, now you have me curious -- how else would ss beat him if k-nite is the 'easy' way?

Even if the pc won't kill him at first, enough blasts, and Superman will go down. Lets say Surfer can tamper with his aura, without that, his durability is no longer as uber. And surfer has the speed and mobility to do so for a long time. He can simply outlast him.

Or siphon the solar energy from superman
Or expose him to red sun radiation

Originally posted by UniOmni
Even if the pc won't kill him at first, enough blasts, and Superman will go down. Lets say Surfer can tamper with his aura, without that, his durability is no longer as uber. And surfer has the speed and mobility to do so for a long time. He can simply outlast him.

if he can tamper with it. i agree it seems likely, but not for certain. if he can then you're right.

like i said -- i DO think ss wins. just not as easily as some, and i think supes COULD beat him. but not the majority at all.

Supes could beat Surfer a few times but certainly not the majority.
Half the time Surfer considers his enemies nothing more then just an annoyance too him.

The sad thing is...That if Surfer was remorseless, and willing to go the distance, he'd house 99.99% of the Superhero populace in comics. Solar and others similar are the exception. Since Solar is pretty much Surfer squared.

The only reason this is a debate at all, is because Marvel writes Surfer as a dolt in battle. Superman is a pacifist, but he is also one of the most capable heroes out there.

Every top tier is written like a dolt most of the time. Some more than others.

Well at least Surfer fans got their prayers answered just recently in Annihilation SS#3. It seemed a power up and Big G gave him the will to do what he must.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's actually a pretty astute point. i don't exactly agree with it, but it does seem to be the case. the reason i disagree is because i think thanos is further above superman in most areas than ss is.

here's a little conversation piece. this is how i would rank them relative to each other in some important areas:

strength: thanos>supes>ss
intelligence: thanos>>supes>ss
durability: thanos>>ss/supes
energy: thanos>>ss>>supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

intangibles are what i consider the ability to call down some consistently displayed feat that many consider pis of some sort. ie--if supes blitzed thanos and took him to the sun, his chances of winning go way up. ss may be able to put supes into his surfboard. supes may be able to trap ss in t-vo land. thanos may use his inconsistent matter manip and change them both to stone!

now, it's important to note: i am using superman at what i think are his most consistently seen feat levels and using his most consistently viewed powers. i know he can perhaps summon others (t-vo, stress-induced increases of power) but i'm putting those things under the intangibles.

as regards ss: lots of people think ss easily beats supes. i do not. i think eventually ss would win IF he used his speed to stay away from supes and used energy drain or k-nite, but it's a silly way to win a fight though hard to counter in an argument. eventually, doing that, supes would weaken and ss could beat him but it would take a long while. people in ss's corner consistently forget some of the CRAZY feats supes has done while: being blasted by k-nite, while having k-nite flowing through his BLOODSTREAM, while under a red sun, while battling uber-powerful magic-users. ss wouldn't simply blast him and win. he'd need to fight very smart and use all his speed. even then, if t-vo comes into play, i really don't see how ss counteracts it. and ss HAS been put down with physical force before. wm thor and thanos have both done it. ss would win imo if he fought very smart (and very differently from his usual style) but it wouldn't be a quick win, or a pretty one. glads stalemated ss when ss didn't use his weakness against him. i see no reason supes couldn't do something very similar depending on the style of fight.

so, what do y'all think?

As usual, a well thought out addition to the forum. However, I'm inclined to disagree a bit. Here is how I see it.

strength: Supes>Thanos>ss - Supes simply has the best feats in this area.
intelligence: Thanos>>supes>ss - Can't have a good villain if he can't plan...
durability: Thanos=Supes>>ss - Both Thanos and Supes have fought through some incredible beatings.
energy: ss>>Thanos=supes - SS is by far the most diverse here.
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

And people, please stop trying to downplay T-vo, he's already beaten a Surfer style character with it (rather easily) once he started to master it, and beaten a n above skyfather level character with it as well.

I shouldn't have to argue the same point every thread after people agree with it. Even I agree it's somewhat of a PIS power, but then again, these 3 characters are PIS masters to begin with.

The stats are rather close and evened out in some way, on any given day any one of these characters should be able to take one another out depending on the circumstances.

SS playing with radiation and trying to drain Supes is not as effective a weapon as most would like to make it. Major Force certainly learned that the hard way.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
As usual, a well thought out addition to the forum. However, I'm inclined to disagree a bit. Here is how I see it.

strength: Supes>Thanos>ss
intelligence: Thanos>>supes>ss
durability: Thanos=Supes>>ss
energy: ss>>Thanos=supes
speed (travel): ss>>supes>>>thanos (no teleporting)
speed (combat): supes/ss>>>thanos (ss does not have many combat feats to his name)
intangibles: supes>ss>thanos

And people, please stop trying to downplay T-vo, he's already beaten a Surfer style character with it (rather easily) once he started to master it, and beaten a n above skyfather level character with it as well.

I shouldn't have to argue the same point every thread after people agree with it. Even I agree it's somewhat of a PIS power, but then again, these 3 characters are PIS masters to begin with.

The stats are rather close and evened out in some way, on any given day any one of these characters should be able to take one another out depending on the circumstances.

SS playing with radiation and trying to drain Supes is not as effective a weapon as most would like to make it. Major Force certainly learned that the hard way.

Avy, i just gotta disagree with this a little.

Strengthwise, Thanos trumps Superman by a far margin. Drax, who took apart stars, was knocked aside along with Hulk, by Thanos. Superman can knock Hulk aside like that, if he's not enraged, but not Drax. Never Drax, without an external powerup.

Durability, Thanos is a league above Superman. Thanos survived the crush of a blackhole, and while worse for wear, he survived. Superman flees blackholes at his fastest speeds. And while Surfer has his low showings, his average puts him on par, if not slightly superior to Superman.

Combat speed only truely matters, if the one with it, is faster than the opponent. As in, can do whatever they want at their own leisure. Thats the cruelty of the speedblitz. When someone can't match the speeds, they are at the whim of the speedster. Surfer shouldn't be touched by Superman. At all. So the combat speed issue is kinda moot. Especially since Surfers not the slugfest type.
DragonBallz is an excellent example of what i mean. Those who are slower, are finished at the whim of the faster.

And my gripe with Tvo is its vague description. When people say, T-vo = Superman wins, my question is how? What does he do that the pc can't possibly counteract?? When those questions are answered, then i'll take it seriously. Thats kinda like someone saying, PC = Surfer wins. Thats no way to debate.

And while MF may have tried, MF is no Surfer. Thats like saying Hulk stomped and hit on Surfer to no effect. Hulk is no superman.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Avy, i just gotta disagree with this a little.

No prob. If we all agreed on everything, it would be quite the boring forum!


Originally posted by UniOmni
Strengthwise, Thanos trumps Superman by a far margin. Drax, who took apart stars, was knocked aside along with Hulk, by Thanos. Superman can knock Hulk aside like that, if he's not enraged, but not Drax. Never Drax, without an external powerup.

Knocking him off balance does not count as a strength feat, and Drax has not shown that kind of power in years if ever. If those kinds of feats will be counted, then PC Darkseid feats are fair game as well, and thats an UGLY can of worms since neither Thanos or Drax do not compare to him on ANY level. Whether people like it or not Superman has beaten him and it's the same Darkseid. Superman also has far more showings that Thanos in this area, the entire league jumping him and trying to use kryptonite against him because they couldn't hold an annoyed (not bloodlusted) Supes is nothing to sneer at either.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Durability, Thanos is a league above Superman. Thanos survived the crush of a blackhole, and while worse for wear, he survived. Superman flees blackholes at his fastest speeds. And while Surfer has his low showings, his average puts him on par, if not slightly superior to Superman.

I have the issue, and Superman used his speed to escape the double black hole. He was in it for quite a while and came out just fine. Thanos on the other hand barely got out of his predicament and didn't look so great. Hell, I've posted scans of Superman repairing planet destroying time/space anomalies with his body alone! Both of them have gotten into some mean scraps and come out fine with one difference, while Superman usually wins his, Thanos either leaves the fights at just the right time, OR even if he doesn't win, he gets respected for just surviving.

Originally posted by UniOmni
2Combat speed only truely matters, if the one with it, is faster than the opponent. As in, can do whatever they want at their own leisure. Thats the cruelty of the speedblitz. When someone can't match the speeds, they are at the whim of the speedster. Surfer shouldn't be touched by Superman. At all. So the combat speed issue is kinda moot. Especially since Surfers not the slugfest type.
DragonBallz is an excellent example of what i mean. Those who are slower, are finished at the whim of the faster.

In a race, yes, SS should not be touched by Superman, however, in over 30 years of existence, SS does not have any speedblitz type battle attacks. It's very possible that SS just enters hyperspace after hitting light speed instead of actually going that fast. Lobo also travels space at far beyond light speeds pn his bike and Superman is still faster in a fight.


Originally posted by UniOmni
And my gripe with Tvo is its vague description. When people say, T-vo = Superman wins, my question is how? What does he do that the pc can't possibly counteract?? When those questions are answered, then i'll take it seriously. Thats kinda like someone saying, PC = Surfer wins. Thats no way to debate.

T-vo has been described. I remember one time that SS and Thanos were battling in the virtual world and SS had pretty much beaten Thanos in that type of battle. Problem was SS couldn't finish the job and Thanos took advantage. Supes has no qualms about finishing the job when he *has* to and that is an advantage he has over both when using T-vo as a VERY viable method.

Borderline reality control
Illusions
Tapping into his opponents power set.
A mental battle field where Superman controls the rules.

Originally posted by UniOmni
And while MF may have tried, MF is no Surfer. Thats like saying Hulk stomped and hit on Surfer to no effect. Hulk is no superman.

MF is definitely no Surfer, I never claimed that BUT, he did try the method being described by many and came out worse for it. MF is still a powerful character.

you raise some good points as usual. a very good one was the comparison of a t-vo attack to the mental battleground that ss beat thanos on. never really saw the parallel there, but i guess that is a very good comparison.

as for strength -- thanos has one-shotted uber drax along with his many other battle-type feats. pure feats thanos rarely does, so we need to look at how easily be beats down even the strongest top tier guys. it may be close, and perhaps supes could somehow will himself to be as strong, but in consistent showings i still say thanos.

durability is likewise pretty close, but i still side with thanos. i just have a hard time believing supes could stand up to the level of power (not taking into account it was magic) that odin threw at thanos. odin has basically one-shotted thor in the past and while supes>thor in durability, he would need to be WAY above thor to deal with that kind of damage.

meh, it is pretty close, but i think it's hard to say thanos loses when he really (spuirrel girl aside! ) if ever loses to this level of opponent 1on1.

ps-t-vo DOES make the issue less clear to me though, which is why gave supes the intangibles. how long does he need to prep to use t-vo?

it's instantaneous to when he can use it, usually a back idea or a plan B when things are looking ugly and the outcome very hazy.

I'd say that thanos,ss and superman are extremely hard to debate over lol im trying to figure this out, but im not gona write it out yet because they are close here and there that just confuses me again.

Originally posted by leonidas
you raise some good points as usual. a very good one was the comparison of a t-vo attack to the mental battleground that ss beat thanos on. never really saw the parallel there, but i guess that is a very good comparison.

I'm delighted to bring thoughtful scenarios for those who like to think about their battles. Even if I bring up what iniatially may sound as a "blasphemous" point...there is usually good reason behind it even if I don't spell it out right away.

Originally posted by leonidas
as for strength -- thanos has one-shotted uber drax along with his many other battle-type feats. pure feats thanos rarely does, so we need to look at how easily be beats down even the strongest top tier guys. it may be close, and perhaps supes could somehow will himself to be as strong, but in consistent showings i still say thanos.

Superman does have the strength without problem as witnessed when
physically beating Darkseid. At the very least, even "Jobberseid" is stat for stat even with Thanos. I've also never seen Thanos punch anyone across the Solar System at faster than light speeds and shake the earth when landing behind them.

Let's remember, if Supes didn't job in his comics somewhat...his title would last as long as SS series...

Originally posted by leonidas
durability is likewise pretty close, but i still side with thanos. i just have a hard time believing supes could stand up to the level of power (not taking into account it was magic) that odin threw at thanos. odin has basically one-shotted thor in the past and while supes>thor in durability, he would need to be WAY above thor to deal with that kind of damage.

Durability is in the eye of the beholder, fox example...lets swap enemies.

Superman vs Odin - Odin has a distinct magical advantage, given the same magical blasts used against Superman..life would indeed be a painful one for our man of steel.

Thanos vs Asmodel - This too is a magical opponent, but Thanos would not have survived the light of heaven attack due to it's nature. Given his status at the time, death would not have tried to reverse the decision against Thanos dying either.

Black Hole - This has been gone over.

Tyrant - Thanos obviously had prep on this one, Supes with the same prep would have done just as well..he does have some nice kryptonian toys as well.


Originally posted by leonidas
meh, it is pretty close, but i think it's hard to say thanos loses when he really (spuirrel girl aside! ) if ever loses to this level of opponent 1on1.

He's also had trouble with Thor when facing him one on one as well as
Morg, Adam Warlock, Ka-zar...etc. Concidently, enemies that SS has fared quite well against on his own.

Originally posted by leonidas
ps-t-vo DOES make the issue less clear to me though, which is why gave supes the intangibles. how long does he need to prep to use t-vo?

Against Herald powered enemies, he's shown to have used it instantly.
Against ridiculously powerful cosmic beings, it takes effort. Due to the
massive difference in speed levels, it would not be a problem to use on Thanos at all.

I don't think this is the right thread for Superman vs Thanos. Hasn't that thread beenn up for a while?

Alright, now that T-vo has been dissected..

Borderline reality control
Illusions
Tapping into his opponents power set.
A mental battle field where Superman controls the rules

I still don't see how this automatically equals Superman wins. Maybe in the DCU, where Superman is king, but a nuetral universe?? The 99.9% chance of Superman winning, is drastically lost.

But thats neither here nor there. Seeing it outlined still hasn't swayed me to its Superman + T-vo = Victory mantra others buy into.
But this thread has gone way off road. My reason for creating this thread, was to see if DC really believed that Superman >> Daxamites, even though they are essentially the same exact race, only differing by weakness.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I'm delighted to bring thoughtful scenarios for those who like to think about their battles. Even if I bring up what iniatially may sound as a "blasphemous" point...there is usually good reason behind it even if I don't spell it out right away.



Superman does have the strength without problem as witnessed when
physically beating Darkseid. At the very least, even "Jobberseid" is stat for stat even with Thanos. I've also never seen Thanos punch anyone across the Solar System at faster than light speeds and shake the earth when landing behind them.

Let's remember, if Supes didn't job in his comics somewhat...his title would last as long as SS series...



Durability is in the eye of the beholder, fox example...lets swap enemies.

Superman vs Odin - Odin has a distinct magical advantage, given the same magical blasts used against Superman..life would indeed be a painful one for our man of steel.

Thanos vs Asmodel - This too is a magical opponent, but Thanos would not have survived the light of heaven attack due to it's nature. Given his status at the time, death would not have tried to reverse the decision against Thanos dying either.

Black Hole - This has been gone over.

Tyrant - Thanos obviously had prep on this one, Supes with the same prep would have done just as well..he does have some nice kryptonian toys as well.




He's also had trouble with Thor when facing him one on one as well as
Morg, Adam Warlock, Ka-zar...etc. Concidently, enemies that SS has fared quite well against on his own.



Against Herald powered enemies, he's shown to have used it instantly.
Against ridiculously powerful cosmic beings, it takes effort. Due to the
massive difference in speed levels, it would not be a problem to use on Thanos at all.

ya see, this is what happened on the supes v thanos thread. my GUT tells me from everything i've seen thanos should/would beat supes. but there IS a lot of evidence suggesting supes could stand up to him.

to a couple of your points -- don't forget i'm using all characters at what i perceive to be their most consistent levels, so uber high end feats don't count . . . that's more a disadvantage to supes cuz thanos doesn't have many low showings. the gem is usually what does it with adam (and adam is a totally weirded out character anyway who's own stats seem to fluctuate wildly . . .) thor HAS had some good showings, unfortunately, most were retconned and more recent showings have thanos being well above him. though in thor's defense he wasn't written to potential.

supes survived asmodel because of his nature, not durability, so i'll discount that, but supes and ss DO have some feats that seem to put them in thanos's class.

already avy, i'm not really debating this with you because we're pretty close in how we're seeing things, but you gotta answer this then: why does thanos so easily beat herald level characters and, well, any other top tier? and please don't resort to the fact that they 'job' . . . he's done it with far too much consistency for me to accept that answer. so . . . how does he do it??

(oh, and we sort of ARE on topic still . . . kinda . . . in an esoteric, spirt-of-the-thread kinda way . . . sorta . . . er . . . right.)

Originally posted by leonidas
ya see, this is what happened on the supes v thanos thread. my GUT tells me from everything i've seen thanos should/would beat supes. but there IS a lot of evidence suggesting supes could stand up to him.

to a couple of your points -- don't forget i'm using all characters at what i perceive to be their most consistent levels, so uber high end feats don't count . . . that's more a disadvantage to supes cuz thanos doesn't have many low showings. the gem is usually what does it with adam (and adam is a totally weirded out character anyway who's own stats seem to fluctuate wildly . . .) thor HAS had some good showings, unfortunately, most were retconned and more recent showings have thanos being well above him. though in thor's defense he wasn't written to potential.

supes survived asmodel because of his nature, not durability, so i'll discount that, but supes and ss DO have some feats that seem to put them in thanos's class.

already avy, i'm not really debating this with you because we're pretty close in how we're seeing things, but you gotta answer this then: why does thanos so easily beat herald level characters and, well, any other top tier? and please don't resort to the fact that they 'job' . . . he's done it with far too much consistency for me to accept that answer. so . . . how does he do it??

(oh, and we sort of ARE on topic still . . . kinda . . . in an esoteric, spirt-of-the-thread kinda way . . . sorta . . . er . . . right.)



Ah! But Superman's durability did play into it as he didn't instantly burn to a crisp just by touching him. In that arc, even WW and MM when touching any heavenly objects were burning and in pain. I keep it as a valid point. Let's also not forget that he had just finished moving the moon beforehand. 2 different kinds of magic, 2 different kinds of weaknesses. Both are still MAGIC weaknesses of different kinds. Supes because he doesn't understand magic, Thanos because of his moral weakness.

Thanos has far less appearances than Superman, and they aren't on earth. When he was on earth, he had problems with Kazar. We both know if Thanos had a couple of monthly titles, he would have to job quite a bit too to keep an long running ongoing series.

As for the cosmics, they do Job.
For example, why would they blast Thanos with cosmic energy? That's akin to evilstar blasting Superman with his solar energy. Why not scan and destroy any tech on Thanos being to disqualify any sudden "power ups" for instance, a simple blast from Omega that wasn't "planet destroying" by any means and Thanos had to pull out 3 shields just to survive in the addition to his costume which is also armor.

Cosmics usually try to battle him H2H, which is Supermans forte', not theirs.

For the topic itself - NOBODY should beat 100,000 daxamites. That's just ludicrous.

But didn't secret files or something state a probe fought like a few thousand Daxams, and wasted them?? And then later Superman, presundip, was shredding them like paper, along with DD?? If that never happened, then i'm wrong.

Originally posted by UniOmni
But didn't secret files or something state a probe fought like a few thousand Daxams, and wasted them?? And then later Superman, presundip, was shredding them like paper, along with DD?? If that never happened, then i'm wrong.

I remember seeing something like that, but probes, like heralds can greatly vary in power.

But all the probes are mindless drones. Its not like their individuals. You have different kinds of probes, but all the same level of power within their class.

i dont even know about daxamites anymore, becuase in the 1993 epic panic in the sky, when green skinned ,humanoid,creepy victorian mustache brainiac seized control of war world and was coming to destroy earth, superman recruited about 3 dozen heroes and a handul of villains, including a few from new genesis and a daxamite was there fighting.......while war world was in orbit around earth...so i was like....i thought they were weak to a yellow sun? and this dude was kicking ass like nobody's business, and he never lost power, so im like WTF with the daxamintes, does NE1 have any current info?

wasn't it their world that darkseid conrolled with a thought at one point?

and avy, we'll agree to disagree. something tells me that thanos would beat superman. his ltd (relative to superman) appearances make feat-comparison difficult, but his actions have done enough to suggest it is the case. and like i said, i don't buy the jobbing. it's too consistent. thanos does have some lower feats (you mentioned a couple) but supes has lots of lower ones too, so getting into that comparison isn't a great way to go. i do still say that t-vo may well be a way that supes could win.

as for asmodel -- i always interpretted the light as being part and parcel of his angelic nature. withstanding the light and touch were the same thing -- he resisted both because he was so 'pure'. or whatever . . .

Originally posted by manjaro
i dont even know about daxamites anymore, becuase in the 1993 epic panic in the sky, when green skinned ,humanoid,creepy victorian mustache brainiac seized control of war world and was coming to destroy earth, superman recruited about 3 dozen heroes and a handul of villains, including a few from new genesis and a daxamite was there fighting.......while war world was in orbit around earth...so i was like....i thought they were weak to a yellow sun? and this dude was kicking ass like nobody's business, and he never lost power, so im like WTF with the daxamintes, does NE1 have any current info?
What?

what?.... to what?

Originally posted by manjaro
what?.... to what?
I'm trying to understand that post. Were you asking if Daxamites were weak to sunlight?

well, kinda..ive always heard that they were weak to yellow sunlight and strengthned by red sunlight, also there elemental weakness, was to lead....thats where i get confused cuz i remeber in "panic in the sky" a daxamite was there taking on brainiac and the hordes of war world. and WW was in earth's orbit, meaning he was in the presence of a yellow sun, and wasnt weakned, so im like WTF...maybe i heard wrong all along

Daxamites must have some sort of Kryptonian ancestry or evolved in near similar conditions to the Kryptonians.....

Daxamites = Kryptonians

The single difference is Daxamites are weakened by lead instead of K-nite because the Eradicator tampered with their DNA.

Originally posted by grey fox
Daxamites must have some sort of Kryptonian ancestry or evolved in near similar conditions to the Kryptonians.....
They're both native to Krypton.

Ahhh....

Originally posted by leonidas
wasn't it their world that darkseid conrolled with a thought at one point?

and avy, we'll agree to disagree. something tells me that thanos would beat superman. his ltd (relative to superman) appearances make feat-comparison difficult, but his actions have done enough to suggest it is the case. and like i said, i don't buy the jobbing. it's too consistent. thanos does have some lower feats (you mentioned a couple) but supes has lots of lower ones too, so getting into that comparison isn't a great way to go. i do still say that t-vo may well be a way that supes could win.

as for asmodel -- i always interpretted the light as being part and parcel of his angelic nature. withstanding the light and touch were the same thing -- he resisted both because he was so 'pure'. or whatever . . .

No problem. It's all in fun.

Depending on the circumstances, victory could tip to either one.
It really doesn't matter that they both have high and low moments, but what matters is that they have COMPARABLE high's and lows... and that is what I'm reffering to and what matters in the end.

For Asmodel, the burning touch is due to his being from a much higher plane of being/existence. Matter on our plane is basically destroyed on contact with spiritual energy. The light is related to that, but is different since it is basically "Judgement" and goes a lot deeper.

cool sig avalon,,, who is tthat?

It's our buddy Hank Henshaw...who's returned this month to haunt the GL's.