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dooku is often said to be the 2nd best duelist in all the star wars movies, being 2nd only to yoda, others think hes below mace and sidious also. what we do know is hes one of the best duelists the jedi order has ever seen. so what im curious about his exacly how much of it is skill, and how much of it is his form.

form 2 wasnt used often at all by the time of the prequal movies, and saber to saber combat wasnt a very important part of a jedis life. so had dooku chosen something like form 1 or 5 or even 7, would he have still been reguarded second only to yoda as far as the order is concerned. his chosen form obviously gave him an advantage, but just how much of an advantage was it? enough to propel him from being a highly skilled jedi like obi wan and the rest of the councel to someone closer to yodas level than any others, or would he have gained that reputation without the edge form 2 gave him?

Well if you say it like that you make it sound like Dooku only knows Form II. I believe he also knows form IV which Qui-Gon used because why would Dooku teach Qui-Gon a form he doesn't know already. Like Obi-Wan learning Form IV but switching to Form III.

I read somewhere that Dooku didn't master Form II until sometime before Episode I. I think that Dooku was well respected and like Qui-Gon he would have been on the Jedi Council if he didn't disobey the code as match.

Well, the Jedi in PT didn't often face lightsaber-equipped opponents so I guess that gave him a big advantage since everyone else was probably using Soresu, Niman or Shii Cho

Dooku was the second most-skilled duelist in the Jedi Order before he left it. Yoda was his superior by a small margin, but I also tend to think that Sidious is above Dooku, for the sake of Dooku being the apprentice. Dooku had beaten Mace in lightsaber combat at some point before TPM.

Originally posted by Decay
dooku is often said to be the 2nd best duelist in all the star wars movies, being 2nd only to yoda, others think hes below mace and sidious also. what we do know is hes one of the best duelists the jedi order has ever seen. so what im curious about his exacly how much of it is skill, and how much of it is his form.

form 2 wasnt used often at all by the time of the prequal movies, and saber to saber combat wasnt a very important part of a jedis life. so had dooku chosen something like form 1 or 5 or even 7, would he have still been reguarded second only to yoda as far as the order is concerned. his chosen form obviously gave him an advantage, but just how much of an advantage was it? enough to propel him from being a highly skilled jedi like obi wan and the rest of the councel to someone closer to yodas level than any others, or would he have gained that reputation without the edge form 2 gave him?

In the SW universe it's impossible to determine what if kind of questions. . .

IMHO Dooku is superior to Sids in saber skills. However Sids would pwn him with the force which is what kept him the master. And Mace was not as good as the Count, it has been proven that Dooku can beat him and Dooku has had far more experience. So Dooku would beat Mace, however only marginally.

Count Dooku is an extremely capable duelist and Force-user. He is in the Top Five greatest duelists in the PT trilogy.

1. Yoda
2. Anakin/Mace
3. Anakin/Mace
4. Sidious/Dooku
5. Sidious/Dooku

Escape has it, though Dooku is probably more equal to Mace.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Escape has it, though Dooku is probably more equal to Mace.

I screwed up, actually.

It was supposed to be:

1. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
2. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
3. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
4. Mace Windu
5. Count Dooku

personally I wouldn't put Anakin on 1,2 or 3.
We are talking about greatest duelists. Anakin wasn't better than Yoda, Sidious or Mace. And I even doubt he was better than Dooku.

Indeed. Anakin was good, but he still lost to Kenobi.

Anakin lost to Obi-Wan because he was stupid.

Originally posted by Xavius
Indeed. Anakin was good, but he still lost to Kenobi.

Anakin > Kenobi in both Force powers and in lightsaber ability. I am not going to argue this again.

Anakin > Dooku in lightsaber ability. This is a fact. Not to mention that Sidious described Anakin as "more powerful" than Count Dooku. Not "has the potential to be more powerful" but "is more powerful than Count Dooku".

So. Anakin is above Dooku and especially Kenobi.

I'm sorry, but I'M not going to repeat myself again.

Kenobi won the duel. Anakin lost. They were shown to be on par in the force and Kenobi wiped the floor with Anakin at the end. That is a fact.

Anakin is above Dooku in Lightsaber skill. The Force? No, not at that point.

Originally posted by henniestevens
personally I wouldn't put Anakin on 1,2 or 3.
We are talking about greatest duelists. Anakin wasn't better than Yoda, Sidious or Mace. And I even doubt he was better than Dooku.
If I remember correctly, Anakin defeated one of the greatest Jedi duelist without even paying much attention to him.

Originally posted by Escape81
I screwed up, actually.

It was supposed to be:

1. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
2. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
3. Yoda/Sidious/Anakin
4. Mace Windu
5. Count Dooku

I pretty much agree with this except I'd put it like this in order of best to worst.

Yoda = Sidious = Anakin = Mace = Dooku

But they're all RELATIVELY equal. So Yoda and Sidious are pretty much equal, with Anakin being pretty much equal to Sidious, but Sidious is slightly better then Anakin, but Anakin isn't likely to beat Yoda. Then Anakin and Mace are equal but Mace isn't likely to beat Sidious and Yoda. And Mace and Dooku are equal but Dooku isn't likely to beat Anakin, Sidious, or Yoda. However, they could ALL fight with each other (1 on 1) and it would be a good fight and difficult to determine.

Make sense?

Yeah but if this is based on lightsaber skill Sidious would be below Mace. After all Mace did defeat Palpatine in saber combat but he wouldn't have won even if Anakin didn't come.

Why the f**k is everyone saying that Mace is above the Count. In saber skills the Count is better by a reasonably large margin (purely because his Makashi style is made for lightsaber comat). And then in force abilities they are on par with the Count possibly having a very marginal lead. I say this because he has around 80 years of knowledge of both the light and dark side whereas Mace has had only around 40 years of experience with the light side.

Hmm maybe because Mace's form VII seems to be a very powerful skill and a hard one to master. But I do rank Count Dooku above Mace Windu.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Hmm maybe because Mace's form VII seems to be a very powerful skill and a hard one to master. But I do rank Count Dooku above Mace Windu.

Thankyou!!! Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.

Let's compare the top 5 for as of Revenge of the Sith in lightsaber skill.

1. Mace Windu (His style is one he invented and that very few have ever mastered. It is often considered the best. I would Like people to read Shatterpoint. For more info on this style click here. http://www.theforce.net/swenc/newdescr.asp?search=38341&tab=d )

2. Yoda/Sidious (I think that ROTS shows us why.)
3. Yoda/Sidious
4. Obi-Wan (His reason for failing to defeat Dooku in ROTS was because of Dooku's greater knowledge of the force.)
5. Anakin Skywalker (Not only did he defeat DooKu in ROTS but he even managed to get ahold of Dooku's own lightsaber to use against him)

I know some might not agree with this list. I complied this list based on facts that I know. To me this list seems correct.

WTF?!?!?! Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that list completely. Here would be my list:

Lightsaber skills:
1.Yoda
2.Count Dooku
3.Mace Windu
4.Sidious
5.Anakin Skywalker

Force abilities:
1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Count Dooku
4.Mace Windu
5.Anakin Skywalker

I put Anakin at the bottom of these lists because he has the potential to be the best but hasnt learnt how to properly use it yet. Some of you probably disagree completely with the duelling list. Sids is only fourth because he just doesnt have the same skill as the others. He gets most of his power from the force, and in a force fight he would wtf pwn them. But however I simply dont see im beating the others in a pure lightsaber duel.

I think my force list is pretty accurate however. Yoda and Sids are way out in front in terms of force strength. Dooku and Mace are extremely close to call. However Dooku has 80 years of both the light and dark side experience whereas Mace only has about 40 years of lightside experience. This gives him a very marginal lead. ONce again Anakin trailed because he has the potential but doesnt yet know how to use it.

As of the EU version of the ROTS movie,
Dueling Ability:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli.

Force Powers:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Yoda.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker/Plo Koon.

I fail to see why people keep putting Dooku above Anakin especiallly after Anakin already proved he's better than dooku.

It's because they're special.. Look fanboys, it's one hundred percent certain that Sidious was a far better duelist than Dooku. Sidious was his master and knew a whole of lot more saber styles than Dooku.

That Mace defeated Sidious is a special case too, but I'm certain that Mace just like Anakin and Yoda could defeat Dooku. That Makashi pwns Soresu is just luck.
Dooku was f*cking old and was a master of a difficult and ancient lightsaber style but some of the others were just superior, get over it.
And to people putting Anakin so far below Dooku and Mace: You're a bunch of retards. (I'm speaking in general now, I'm not refering to actual members here who might have had this opinion)

And to the creator of this thread: Duh.. Of course he wasn't the second best duelist of the galaxy.. Duh Duh Duh!!! Go watch revenge of the sith.
He should've, could've been better but he wasn't.

Originally posted by Count Kent
As of the EU version of the ROTS movie,
Dueling Ability:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli.

Force Powers:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Yoda.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker/Plo Koon.

Why on earth is Mace at the top of both those lists?!?!? He is on par with Dooku at best.Yoda should be at the top of the lists, followed by Sidious in the force list and Dooku in the duelling list.Then Mace and finally Anakin. Anakin wasnt all powerful in ROTS. He had massive amounts of potential but hadnt learned how to use it yet. This is why he comes last on the lists. But not by much. Numbers 3 4 5 are extremely close to differentiate.

As a duelist? Anakin>Dooku

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As a duelist? Anakin>Dooku

Ha

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Why the f**k is everyone saying that Mace is above the Count. In saber skills the Count is better by a reasonably large margin (purely because his Makashi style is made for lightsaber comat). And then in force abilities they are on par with the Count possibly having a very marginal lead. I say this because he has around 80 years of knowledge of both the light and dark side whereas Mace has had only around 40 years of experience with the light side.

And I am sure that your considerable bias in Dooku's favor would have nothing to do with that. This coming from the man who labeled him as "the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith ever". Dooku was a pawn. A talented one, but a pawn nonetheless.

Count Dooku is an incredibly powerful Force-user. But his usage of Makashi doesn't guarentee him a victory at all.

Anakin defeated him in a contest of sabers, despite Dooku's proficiency in Makashi - and Yoda was able to overwhelm Count Dooku in a saber fight in both AotC and Dark Rendezvous - despite his Makashi proficiency.

Your point? Moot.

Count Dooku isn't ahead of Mace by a considerable margin. Consider: Only three years prior to RotS, Dooku was able to own Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, and yet in RotS, Anakin overcame him. So, in the span of thirteen years, I am positive that Mace improved dramatically - as he was already described as a lightsaber prodigy - like Count Dooku.

Your point? Moot.

We can only speculate about who would win. But your crap about experience means nothing. Yoda has 900 years of experience, but he didn't WTFpwn Sidious - who only had 60 years worth. Sidious has more experience than Mace, but he didn't WTFpwn Mace. Dooku has 70 years of experience, compared to Anakin's 13, and he didn't pwn Anakin by the time of RotS.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF?!?!?! Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that list completely. Here would be my list:

Lightsaber skills:
1.Yoda
2.Count Dooku
3.Mace Windu
4.Sidious
5.Anakin Skywalker

Force abilities:
1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Count Dooku
4.Mace Windu
5.Anakin Skywalker

I put Anakin at the bottom of these lists because he has the potential to be the best but hasnt learnt how to properly use it yet. Some of you probably disagree completely with the duelling list. Sids is only fourth because he just doesnt have the same skill as the others. He gets most of his power from the force, and in a force fight he would wtf pwn them. But however I simply dont see im beating the others in a pure lightsaber duel.

I think my force list is pretty accurate however. Yoda and Sids are way out in front in terms of force strength. Dooku and Mace are extremely close to call. However Dooku has 80 years of both the light and dark side experience whereas Mace only has about 40 years of lightside experience. This gives him a very marginal lead. ONce again Anakin trailed because he has the potential but doesnt yet know how to use it.

Anakin > Count Dooku.

I don't think you want to accept it, but the official script, the movie, and Lucas's commentary all firmly prove that Anakin is simply better than Count Dooku.

Why the hell would Sidious want Anakin if he weren't?

Darth Sidious: Soon, I shall have a new apprentice... one far younger... and more powerful.

A line from the guy who's not only intent on conquering the galaxy but also wants the most powerful apprentice. The man who has studied both Dooku and Anakin and knows which one is superior.

He chose Anakin.

The. End.

The last time Mace and Dooku fought the fight was...inconclusive. They were evenly matched,

And sorry, Tyrannus, but it's true. There;s nothing suggesting Dooku held back

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF?!?!?! Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that list completely. Here would be my list:

Lightsaber skills:
1.Yoda
2.Count Dooku
3.Mace Windu
4.Sidious
5.Anakin Skywalker

Force abilities:
1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Count Dooku
4.Mace Windu
5.Anakin Skywalker

I put Anakin at the bottom of these lists because he has the potential to be the best but hasnt learnt how to properly use it yet. Some of you probably disagree completely with the duelling list. Sids is only fourth because he just doesnt have the same skill as the others. He gets most of his power from the force, and in a force fight he would wtf pwn them. But however I simply dont see im beating the others in a pure lightsaber duel.

I think my force list is pretty accurate however. Yoda and Sids are way out in front in terms of force strength. Dooku and Mace are extremely close to call. However Dooku has 80 years of both the light and dark side experience whereas Mace only has about 40 years of lightside experience. This gives him a very marginal lead. ONce again Anakin trailed because he has the potential but doesnt yet know how to use it.

Sorry but when it comes to lightsaber skills Anakin has Dooku beat.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF?!?!?! Im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that list completely. Here would be my list:

Lightsaber skills:
1.Yoda
2.Count Dooku
3.Mace Windu
4.Sidious
5.Anakin Skywalker

Force abilities:
1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Count Dooku
4.Mace Windu
5.Anakin Skywalker

I put Anakin at the bottom of these lists because he has the potential to be the best but hasnt learnt how to properly use it yet. Some of you probably disagree completely with the duelling list. Sids is only fourth because he just doesnt have the same skill as the others. He gets most of his power from the force, and in a force fight he would wtf pwn them. But however I simply dont see im beating the others in a pure lightsaber duel.

I think my force list is pretty accurate however. Yoda and Sids are way out in front in terms of force strength. Dooku and Mace are extremely close to call. However Dooku has 80 years of both the light and dark side experience whereas Mace only has about 40 years of lightside experience. This gives him a very marginal lead. ONce again Anakin trailed because he has the potential but doesnt yet know how to use it.

Anakin bested Dooku in a lightsaber battle. Don't argue. It's fact. So, the list would be:

Force Powers:

1. Yoda/Sidious
2. Yoda/Sidious
3. Mace/Dooku/Anakin
4. Mace/Dooku/Anakin
5. Mace/Dooku/Anakin

Lightsaber ability:

Sheesh . . . the hardest. Yoda or Anakin, probably. . . I can't rank it.

If it's straight up lightsaber (with no force) Yoda won't be that good. He relies on the Force to be able to move about.

Mace and Dooku>Anakin with the force (by far)

Mace and Sidious>Anakin with lightsabers.

Why is everyone excluding obi-wan. Yes he lost to Dooku on ROTS but remember he was knocked backwards by a force push. Obi-Wan however proves in his fight with Anakin that he is at least as good as Anakin. His force skills were just as devoloped as Anakin in that fight as we see in that double force push between the two. As a result they had to depend on their skill with a saber. The only edge Obi-Wan had in the fight was his greater experiance. Point in by the time of ROTS both Obi-Wan and Anakin had a greater skill with a lightsaber then Dooku. To be honest I did not see much of an approvement in Dooku's skill between movies which makes be think he had reached his limit to how good he could get with a saber. As for the best with a lightsaber all together. That would be Mace. You can argue that he uses the force when he fights but then you must remember that every Jedi, Dark Jedi and Sith use the force when they duel. The use it to guide their actions. Their increased reflexes, speed and all that come from the force. Also Lightsabers are difficult to fight with. Which is why only a force user can use one well. I would be dangerous for a non force user to attempt to fight with one. They are more difficult to handle then a sword considering when activates, the blade is pretty much weightless. One wrong move the you could injure yourself or worse.

Escape81 I cant be bothered quoting your points but you present a good argument. However everyone can stop holding the fact that Dooku was a 'pawn' against him. Because everyone below Sids was a pawn, and if I am not mistaken that is the entire galaxy. Vader, Yoda, Jango etc were all pawns.

This is as far as I am willing to budge on the ROTS battle. Dooku has far more skill than Anakin, yet Anakin has far more raw power/strength. I am not saying that Dooku is weak but he simply got overpowered by Anakin. Anakin then performed a tricky manouvre and caught Dooku out. So the way I see it Anakin is stronger physically, yet the Count has more skill with a saber. However his skill wasnt enough to save him in ROTS unfortunately.

And no Anakin isnt on the level of Yoda or Sids, not by ROTS anyway. Yes he could and probably did become more powerful than them both, but in ROTS he is nothing but a whiny teen who has the power but cant use it. Yoda or Sids would wtf pwn him in a fight.

why did this turn into a versus thread? i was just curious as to how much of an advantage form 2 was for dooku, if hed chosen something like form 5 or even 3 would he have still attained the same level of skill, and would he still be at least a pretty close match for windu? if obi wan had chosen for 2 would he be as skilled at dooku was? so how much of dookus ability was his own skill, and how much of it was his use of form 2?

Meh, Anakin did win by pulling him hands out and cutting them off...

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Why is everyone excluding obi-wan. Yes he lost to Dooku on ROTS but remember he was knocked backwards by a force push. Obi-Wan however proves in his fight with Anakin that he is at least as good as Anakin. His force skills were just as devoloped as Anakin in that fight as we see in that double force push between the two. As a result they had to depend on their skill with a saber. The only edge Obi-Wan had in the fight was his greater experiance. Point in by the time of ROTS both Obi-Wan and Anakin had a greater skill with a lightsaber then Dooku. To be honest I did not see much of an approvement in Dooku's skill between movies which makes be think he had reached his limit to how good he could get with a saber. As for the best with a lightsaber all together. That would be Mace. You can argue that he uses the force when he fights but then you must remember that every Jedi, Dark Jedi and Sith use the force when they duel. The use it to guide their actions. Their increased reflexes, speed and all that come from the force. Also Lightsabers are difficult to fight with. Which is why only a force user can use one well. I would be dangerous for a non force user to attempt to fight with one. They are more difficult to handle then a sword considering when activates, the blade is pretty much weightless. One wrong move the you could injure yourself or worse.

Nah. Mace isn't the best lightsaber duelist. If you watch RotS Mace vs. Palpatine his fight was kind of slow.

Thanks.



That was in response for you proclaiming that Count Dooku was the greatest Sith Lord ever. He wasn't even close. Dooku was only a temporary-Sith, and a pawn. Palpatine, followed by Exar Kun and Darth Bane are the three of the greatest.



You can have your opinion, but that's all it amounts to. An opinion. Meanwhile, I have fact to support my claims - which supercedes your opinion. Therefore, it holds no bearing on the argument.



If Dooku had far more skill than Anakin, Anakin's raw strength wouldn't have saved him. Dooku had equal or less skill than Anakin. More experience, but that doesn't necessarily translate to actual skill.

No, Count Dooku is far from being weak, but he doesn't measure up to Anakin.

The script, commentary, movie, and Palpatine's own words do not support this claim. Anakin was simply more powerful than Count Dooku and bested him.



In terms of sheer lightsaber ability, yes, I'd put him on an equal footing with Yoda or Sidious.

In a fight? No, I'd wager that Yoda and Palpatine are the only ones who could overpower him. But that isn't because of their lightsaber ability alone, but simply a combination of the following:

- Force Powers: Both Palpatine and Yoda have superior Force-powers to Anakin, though he is by no means a slouch in this department.

- Force Mastery: This is one of the major ones. Yoda and Sidious have a dramatically superior control of the Force than Anakin. They seem to be able to use it easier and more efficiently - as well as more effectively.

- Psychological Superiority: Both Yoda and Palpatine are, on a psychological level, more stable than Anakin. This is what gave Kenobi his victory against him, and combine this with Yoda's wisdom and Palpatine's ability to manipulate - Anakin would play into their hands in a fight.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Escape81 I cant be bothered quoting your points but you present a good argument. However everyone can stop holding the fact that Dooku was a 'pawn' against him. Because everyone below Sids was a pawn, and if I am not mistaken that is the entire galaxy. Vader, Yoda, Jango etc were all pawns.

This is as far as I am willing to budge on the ROTS battle. Dooku has far more skill than Anakin, yet Anakin has far more raw power/strength. I am not saying that Dooku is weak but he simply got overpowered by Anakin. Anakin then performed a tricky manouvre and caught Dooku out. So the way I see it Anakin is stronger physically, yet the Count has more skill with a saber. However his skill wasnt enough to save him in ROTS unfortunately.

And no Anakin isnt on the level of Yoda or Sids, not by ROTS anyway. Yes he could and probably did become more powerful than them both, but in ROTS he is nothing but a whiny teen who has the power but cant use it. Yoda or Sids would wtf pwn him in a fight.

Dooku fanboy at the finest level.

Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Dooku fanboy at the finest level.

In my opinion:

Anyone can have a preference for any character they so choose. I know that Janus used to have a preference for both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku, and used to argue with me about the both of them. I know that Sorgo used to have an extreme preference for both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku (especially) as well. I know that Traya (whom I think is Swirly Girl - I didn't think to ask) had (obviously) a preference for Traya.

I personally like Exar Kun, Palpatine, Yoda, and - dare I say it - General Grievous.

We all have our moments of bias. Rampant Ox's liking of Dooku, or idolizing him isn't a problem to me. My problem is that when he defies the script, the movies, and the commentary in favor of his character. That is defying canon and logic.

Other than that, it doesn't bother me a single bit.

"Greatest" is a subjective view. Dooku may be one of the greatest Sith for many reasons.

Too right.

I have been thinking about this and I have up with a new list on saber battle skill list on who is best and stuff. This is just from the movies and the last time we actualy see them fight in ROTS. Here it is. My new top 5

1. Mace Windu (Mace's battle with Palpatine was slow because both were actualy using their brains in that fight. This does not mean that Mace can not fight fast if needed to.)
2. Palpatine (Very close behind Mace.)
3. Yoda (He is very skilled but if he were suddenly cut off from the force he would have some trouble in a fight)
4. Obi-Wan/Anakin (What can I say. They are on equal footing on lightsaber skill.)
5. Dooku (As high as his skill was he had reached him limit. He could not get any better then what he was. Unfortunatly it was not high enough to defeat Anakin)

As for who the greatest Sith was. It was not Dooku. I can only think of 2 that could truely be called great.

Palpatine- He did manage to wipe out the almost every known Jedi. Not to mention realy fooled the Jedi and the entire republic. Then even after he was killed he managed to transport his spirit into a clone body which was no where near where he was killed.

Exar Kun- A large task force of Jedi and Republic troops were sent after him to take him down. Hmm a lot of people just for one person. Despite all that he was able to seal his spirit into that temple on Yavin 4.

Originally posted by Escape81


We all have our moments of bias. Rampant Ox's liking of Dooku, or idolizing him isn't a problem to me. My problem is that when he defies the script, the movies, and the commentary in favor of his character. That is defying canon and logic.

Other than that, it doesn't bother me a single bit.

Thanks mate.

I do sometimes defy the script, GL etc. If I am truly wrong dont hesitate to tell me guys. However if it is your opinion against mine I will fight you to the bitter end!!!!

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison


1. Mace Windu (Mace's battle with Palpatine was slow because both were actualy using their brains in that fight. This does not mean that Mace can not fight fast if needed to.)
2. Palpatine (Very close behind Mace.)
3. Yoda (He is very skilled but if he were suddenly cut off from the force he would have some trouble in a fight)
4. Obi-Wan/Anakin (What can I say. They are on equal footing on lightsaber skill.)
5. Dooku (As high as his skill was he had reached him limit. He could not get any better then what he was. Unfortunatly it was not high enough to defeat Anakin)



Sorry, but I am going to have to disagree again. Obi-Wan is not better than Dooku and Mace doesnt belong at the top. My new list would be:

1.Yoda
2.Sidious
3.Anakin/Dooku/Mace
4.Anakin/Dooku/Mace
5.Anakin/Dooku/Mace

That is an overall list of skill. IMO Mace isnt better than the Count. However we can only use opinions seeing we havent seen them fight. I will accept that they are on par though. Anakin gets there through raw power (even though I hate the whiny prick!!!). He has alot of power and can easily duel with the best of them. He killed Dooku(bawling) and aided in the defeat of Mace. However this doesnt put him above Dooku/Mace seeing they didnt use force powers on him. In ROTS Dooku didnt use the force at all on Anakin and nor did Mace in the Chancellors office.

Originally posted by Razielim
"Greatest" is a subjective view. Dooku may be one of the greatest Sith for many reasons.

Greatest is partly subjective, but facts can still be applied to make one entity seem 'greater' than another. So going by the facts, it is illogical to think Dooku is as great as Sidious, taking into account the values that make a great sith lord.

How much has certain sith lord had under his control?

What is certain sith lords rank in the chain of command?

How much has certain sith lord furthered the goals of the dark side (eliminating the jedi)?

How powerful is certain sith lord?

The list could go on and on, and you will find that in nearly all values important to being a great sith lord... Sidious is the superior.

What is certain sith lords rank in the chain of command?

That one alone makes Palpatine seem great. He had the CIS and Republic under his control.

Mace's whole style Vaapad relies on the use of the force. Mace taps into the dark side a little bit. Just read Shatterpoint. I am not a big mace fan but I believe is the best with a lightsaber. As for Obi-Wan, we have all seen just how good he is. Considering he fight with anakin it is obvious that he is better then dooku. When Dooku was fighting obi-wan and anakin in ROTS he knew that Obi-Wan was better then him and could not beat them both together so he used the force to push obi-wan out of the fight. Dooku obviously thought that Obi-Wan was a bigger threat theat then Anakin. We all know that Anakin did not just beat him, he completly wooped his butt. Let's just face it. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are better then Dooku in ROTS.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Mace's whole style Vaapad relies on the use of the force. Mace taps into the dark side a little bit. Just read Shatterpoint. I am not a big mace fan but I believe is the best with a lightsaber. As for Obi-Wan, we have all seen just how good he is. Considering he fight with anakin it is obvious that he is better then dooku. When Dooku was fighting obi-wan and anakin in ROTS he knew that Obi-Wan was better then him and could not beat them both together so he used the force to push obi-wan out of the fight. Dooku obviously thought that Obi-Wan was a bigger threat theat then Anakin. We all know that Anakin did not just beat him, he completly wooped his butt. Let's just face it. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are better then Dooku in ROTS.

In lightsaber skill. I believe Dooku has a better mastery of the Force then both of them.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Mace's whole style Vaapad relies on the use of the force. Mace taps into the dark side a little bit. Just read Shatterpoint. I am not a big mace fan but I believe is the best with a lightsaber. As for Obi-Wan, we have all seen just how good he is. Considering he fight with anakin it is obvious that he is better then dooku. When Dooku was fighting obi-wan and anakin in ROTS he knew that Obi-Wan was better then him and could not beat them both together so he used the force to push obi-wan out of the fight. Dooku obviously thought that Obi-Wan was a bigger threat theat then Anakin. We all know that Anakin did not just beat him, he completly wooped his butt. Let's just face it. Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are better then Dooku in ROTS.

No, you have it completely wrong. Because Anakin can beat Dooku and Kenobi can beat Anakin doesnt mean that Kenobi could beat Dooku. It is an A>B>C argument, and these usually dont work. It is proven that Dooku has wtf pwned Kenobi twice. And Dooku didnt take out Kenobi in ROTS because he was a bigger threat. It was because:
-Kenobi was the weak link
-Dooku wasnt there to kill Anakin, only turn him. Kenobi however was of no importance to Dooku.
-Taking out Kenobi would have helped anger Skywalker, which is exactly what Dooku was trying to do.
And Kenobi only bet Anakin because he had the high ground. Had the fight continued on level groung Skywalker would have one.

It was obvious from the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight that eventualy whoever made the first mistake would lose. They were both equal at that point. It is possible that Dooku was trying to use Anakin for his own uses. It is obvious he does not know about Palpatine wanting Anakin as his apprentice because of the look on Dooku's face when Palpatine told Anakin to kill Dooku. We know that Dooku wanted to kill Palpatine from his conversation with Obi-Wan in AOTC. Also it is a Sith's nature to try to kill their master. As for saying Obi-Wan was the weakest link is a mistake on your part. If I had to fight two opponants and one was stronger then the other. I would rather get rid of the stronger of the two first. That would mean I would have an easier time dealing with the weaker one. Dooku would have been smart enough to know that.

Yes but Dooku didnt want to kill Anakin. Kenobi was just a nuisance in that battle, he wasnt needed and Dooku got rid of him ASAP. All Dooku wanted was Anakin. It was Dookus task to turn Anakin to the dark side. Obi-Wan had no purpose for being there and so Dooku eliminated him.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes but Dooku didnt want to kill Anakin. Kenobi was just a nuisance in that battle, he wasnt needed and Dooku got rid of him ASAP. All Dooku wanted was Anakin. It was Dookus task to turn Anakin to the dark side. Obi-Wan had no purpose for being there and so Dooku eliminated him.


The point is that Obi-Wan was obviously a threat to whatever plans he had. Obi-Wan was obviously better then Anakin. Saber skill involved more then just standing in one place and fighting. It involves movement, evasion, location and lots of other things. The true duelest uses his or her enviroment to their advantage. And as we see in his fight against anakin, Obi-Wan used this to his advantage. That was with both Anakin and Obi-Wan suffering a lot of emotional pain. On one hand you have Anakin who believed the Jedi betrayed the republic, just loss Padme, thought Padme was cheating on him with Obi-Wan. On the other hand we have Obi-Wan who is forced to fight his best friend, the knowledge that Anakin had killed all those younglings, the knowledge that the Jedi were being slaughtered like livestock, and the fact that the republic who he defended was responsible for the deaths of so many Jedi. Seems to me that Obi-Wan was definitly the better duelest. Dooku's skill can be debated but from what I saw, both Anakin and Obi-Wan are better then him.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The last time Mace and Dooku fought the fight was...inconclusive. They were evenly matched,

And sorry, Tyrannus, but it's true. There;s nothing suggesting Dooku held back

How could anybody say that? In the movie he went from Makashi fencing to simple Soresu blocking throughout the fight. The sequence before the beheading shows Dooku using both hands in a stiff, rigid, and and rather simple stance somewhat like Soresu.

Im sorry but if Kenobi was better than Dooku, howcome the Count wtf pwned him TWICE. Obi-Wan is a good duellist, no doubt about it, but he is not on the same level of skill as Dooku or Anakin. In the ROTS battle Kenobi and Anakin were basically equal. They each met each other blow for blow. However Anakin had the darkside with him, was full of hate, and had raw strength and power that Kenobi did not. Kenobi was the smarter duellist, but not the better one.

ANakin wasn't actually the'better' either.He was too consumed with grief about Padme 'cheating' on him with Obi-Wan to actually think straight.In other words,he went bananas.If he focused all that 'power' and used it instead of it using him,then Kenobi wouldve died that day.And as I recall from the ROTS novel,Dooku was getting WTFpwned by Anakin,and it even says his age WAS catching up to him,and that without the Force to help him,he was just a frail old man.

Greatest is partly subjective, but facts can still be applied to make one entity seem 'greater' than another. So going by the facts, it is illogical to think Dooku is as great as Sidious, taking into account the values that make a great sith lord.

Yes, I agree, but compared to Sith lords like Maul and even Exar Kun, Dooku is greater. Exar Kun killed a few masters (Dooku killed more), converted a few Padawans (Dooku converted many masters) and started a war (Dooku started a bigger war). Granted, Palpy helped on the last one, but Dooku still deserves credit.

How much has certain sith lord had under his control?

Thousands of CIS systems, which is quite impressive.

What is certain sith lords rank in the chain of command?

He was the apprentice, but publicly he was the Sith Lord. Not many knew about Darth Sidious.

How much has certain sith lord furthered the goals of the dark side (eliminating the jedi)?

The Clone Wars did kill off many Jedi and sent them all around the galaxy for an easy Order 66.

How powerful is certain sith lord?

Not as powerful as his master, but strong enough to stand against any Jedi of his era. Strong enough to fight Yoda for 40 seconds.

The list could go on and on, and you will find that in nearly all values important to being a great sith lord... Sidious is the superior.

Yeah, but besides him and a few others... Dooku is certainly up there.

Originally posted by Decay
why did this turn into a versus thread? i was just curious as to how much of an advantage form 2 was for dooku, if hed chosen something like form 5 or even 3 would he have still attained the same level of skill, and would he still be at least a pretty close match for windu? if obi wan had chosen for 2 would he be as skilled at dooku was? so how much of dookus ability was his own skill, and how much of it was his use of form 2?
Form 2 is a true offensive and effective way of dueling, it is certainly far superior against a few forms. It's less tiring than Ataru for example and still a very effective form.
At least Dooku mastered it fully eventually but he should've been better like Sidious and his mastery of different forms.
Maybe he just didn't have as much midi-chloreans as Mace/Anakin/Yoda.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im sorry but if Kenobi was better than Dooku, howcome the Count wtf pwned him TWICE. Obi-Wan is a good duellist, no doubt about it, but he is not on the same level of skill as Dooku or Anakin. In the ROTS battle Kenobi and Anakin were basically equal. They each met each other blow for blow. However Anakin had the darkside with him, was full of hate, and had raw strength and power that Kenobi did not. Kenobi was the smarter duellist, but not the better one.
Kenobi never was an incredible duelist in my opinion. He is incredibly good at defending. He still WTFpwned Maul in my own opinion but never became like Mace or Yoda. I don't think he could've surprised Anakin and bested him, he is just an incredible defender. (except against Makashi of course)

When Dooku defeated Obi-Wan in ROTS he did not defeat him with a lightsaber. He defeated through use of the force. Yes Dooku's force skill is higher then Obi-Wan's but Obi-Wan's skill with a lightsaber was better. It is very possible that old age started to creep up on Dooku and that is why Obi-Wan's skill was higher. He also could not use the dark side on the same level as Palpatine concidering Palpatine's level of dark side mastery was stronger. So it would be easier for Palpatine to fuel himself with the dark side then it would be for Dooku. I am not saying Dooku is weak. But let's face it. In ROTS he could not beat Obi-Wan with a lightsaber and had to beat him through the use of the force. If Dooku has been smart he would have done the same with Anakin. Obi-Wan was able to hold his own against Anakin. So that puts him on the same level as Anakin. Meanwhile Dooku could not hold his own. Heck he even lost his own hands. Even if Dooku had been holding back. I do not think he would let someone cut off his hands.

Just because Dooku bet Kenobi with the force doesnt mean he was losing to him with a lightsaber. Kenobi wasnt an important part of the battle in ROTS, Dooku wanted to spend him full attention on taunting Skywalker. So he eliminated Obi-Wan quickly with the force. He could also have done it with a lightsaber (we have seen him do it before) but the force was far quicker. Kenobis Soresu style keeps a fight going far longer than necessary. And just because Kenobi is on par with Anakin doesnt mean he could beat Dooku. Different styles, abilities etc.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because Dooku bet Kenobi with the force doesnt mean he was losing to him with a lightsaber. Kenobi wasnt an important part of the battle in ROTS, Dooku wanted to spend him full attention on taunting Skywalker. So he eliminated Obi-Wan quickly with the force. He could also have done it with a lightsaber (we have seen him do it before) but the force was far quicker. Kenobis Soresu style keeps a fight going far longer than necessary. And just because Kenobi is on par with Anakin doesnt mean he could beat Dooku. Different styles, abilities etc.

I read that Dooku DID toss Obi-Wan away with ease, but he genuinly did not expect such feroscity from the two and he was momentarily overwhelmed, hence getting rid of Obi-Wan to even things out.

We will never know for sure if Dooku could have defeated Obi-Wan with a lightsaber in ROTS. Yes he did that in AOTC but he also did the same to Anakin in AOTC. When you watch the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS you can clearly see that they are on the same level. In both terms of force control and lightsaber skill. In the end it came down to who was more level headed. It is logical to assume that Obi-Wan could beat Dooku in a skill of lightsabers. So just forget that you even like any of these people and use facts and logic. That is what I do when trying to compare characters.

Im sorry but I dont see why it is 'logical' to assume Kenobi would beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Wouldnt it be more logical to assume the Count would win seeing he has the better style, more experience and it is proven he has beaten Kenobi before.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im sorry but I dont see why it is 'logical' to assume Kenobi would beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Wouldnt it be more logical to assume the Count would win seeing he has the better style, more experience and it is proven he has beaten Kenobi before.

Yes it would.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Yes it would.

Thank you

Are you forgetting that the count is getting old. You need to factor that in too. As a force user get's older they start to rely on the force more and more. And when you get old your reactions slow more and more. Not to mention both Obi-Wan and Anikan the advantage of youth. Dooku would naturaly tire more easily then either one of them. Not to mention that they can move faster speeds easier then Dooku. Dooku would require more use the force to match their speeds then they would need to use to match his. As he used the force more and more eventualy he would tire more and more. That is why Anakin was able to beat him like he did. Also who is to say that Obi-Wan could not have switched to the same style as Anakin in the fight. After all he did teach Anakin it. He just prefered the form that we see him used. It is likly that Obi-Wan would have defeated Dooku too but of course Obi-Wan would not have killed him.

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Are you forgetting that the count is getting old. You need to factor that in too. As a force user get's older they start to rely on the force more and more. And when you get old your reactions slow more and more. Not to mention both Obi-Wan and Anikan the advantage of youth. Dooku would naturaly tire more easily then either one of them. Not to mention that they can move faster speeds easier then Dooku. Dooku would require more use the force to match their speeds then they would need to use to match his. As he used the force more and more eventualy he would tire more and more. That is why Anakin was able to beat him like he did. Also who is to say that Obi-Wan could not have switched to the same style as Anakin in the fight. After all he did teach Anakin it. He just prefered the form that we see him used. It is likly that Obi-Wan would have defeated Dooku too but of course Obi-Wan would not have killed him.

Ahem. . .age means jack-shit in the SW universe. . .

WTF!?!?! Dooku is said to have the strength of a 40 year old man. He is a master of a style which uses minimum energy and have you looked at Yoda. 800+ years old but still one of the best duellists ever. So your argument about Dooku tiring more easy is a load of bullsh*t.n Your argument about the duo being able to move at faster speeds is also a load of bullsh*t. Dookus attacks are fast and precise. He keeps his lightsaber away from his body so that his attacks are extremely fast and cause the opponent to block wildly.

And also a major part of duelling is the force. The force guides the blade and helps you predict an opponents attack. Dooku is far better than Kenobi with the force. We see that in ROTS when he lifts Kenobi up while force choking him, throws him across the room and drops a steel balcony on him. So this would also aid Dookus skill with a blade.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
WTF!?!?! Dooku is said to have the strength of a 40 year old man. He is a master of a style which uses minimum energy and have you looked at Yoda. 800+ years old but still one of the best duellists ever. So your argument about Dooku tiring more easy is a load of bullsh*t.n Your argument about them being able the duo being able to move at faster speeds is also a load of bullsh*t. Dookus attacks are fast and precise. He keeps his lightsaber away from his body so that his attacks are extremely fast and cause the opponent to block wildly.

And also a major part of duelling is the force. The force guides the blade and helps you predict an opponents attack. Dooku is far better than Kenobi with the force. We see that in ROTS when he lifts Kenobi up while force choking him, throws him across the room and drops a steel balcony on him. So this would also aid Dookus skill with a blade.

Well lets keep in mind that Yoda is an alien but I see your point. . .

Not realy. Do you honestly think Yoda was in in Prime in the PT. I think not. As a jedi gets old you seem them become slower. Proof of this is the lightsaber battle between Obi-Wan & Vader in ANH. Vader moved slow cause he was being cautious. I am sure he was a little nervous after his last fight with Obi-Wan and did not want to make mistakes. As for Obi-Wan. His movement were slow because he was old. Evidently even Palpatine had a blind spot. He did not even know he was being picked up my Vader until he was in the air. So you see old age does count for something in the star wars universe. Experiance may count for something too but Anakin reached a level of skill that took Obi-Wan his whole life to reach in a much shorter time. That shows you that even sometimes the experiance does not always matter. If you were judging by experiance, then Qui-Gon should have beat Maul, Dooku should have beat Anakin, and Yoda should have beat Palpatine. As you can see that in each of these cases the younger fighter won. So clearly age does matter.

Yes. I will agree that as someone gets older that they get weaker physically. But Dooku is an exception because it has been specifically stated he still has the strength of a 40 year old man. Plus with age comes experience. Dookus around 80 and Kenobis around 40. Thats a 40 year age gap - meaning Dooku has a 40 year advantage. So as good as kenobi is, he cant stand up to the master of Makashi - Count Dooku.

This arguement could go on for hours. Let's just agree to disagree. Or agree that they are at about the same level. Which would put Anakin at about the same level too. It is like rock paper scissors with their styles. Anakan>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin. We will never know for sure if Obi-Wan would be Dooku but we do know they are all 3 around the same level.

Well for the record im going to say that Kenobi isnt in the same league as Dooku. But yes, i think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Chuck Norris is a master of the Vapaad form. He can beat them all in two maybe three hits.

Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
I read that Dooku DID toss Obi-Wan away with ease, but he genuinly did not expect such feroscity from the two and he was momentarily overwhelmed, hence getting rid of Obi-Wan to even things out. Ding,ding!We have a winner!As stated in the novel,it even says that Dooku's skill,everything he learned in his 83 years of age didn't matter when he was fighting Skywalker,he knew he was fighting a losing battle at that point intime.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Ding,ding!We have a winner!As stated in the novel,it even says that Dooku's skill,everything he learned in his 83 years of age didn't matter when he was fighting Skywalker,he knew he was fighting a losing battle at that point intime.

OHH OHH WHAT DO I WIN!!!!?????11111!!!!

Originally posted by Count Kent
As of the EU version of the ROTS movie,
Dueling Ability:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Yoda.
3. Darth Sidious.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin/Obi-Wan Kenobi/Luminara Unduli.

Force Powers:
1. Mace Windu.
2. Darth Sidious.
3. Yoda.
4. Count Dooku.
5. Anakin Skywalker/Plo Koon.

Do people agree with this? It includes anybody who made an appearence in the EU film ROTS.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im sorry but I dont see why it is 'logical' to assume Kenobi would beat Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Wouldnt it be more logical to assume the Count would win seeing he has the better style, more experience and it is proven he has beaten Kenobi before. I also know that you would find it logical that Dooku could beat Anakin in a second round. All your logic of SW is based on being a fanboy.
Maybe you should consider using this link.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Do people agree with this? It includes anybody who made an appearence in the EU film ROTS. Of course not, you idiot. What the hell is that list based on!! Go chuckle away with Blaxicans posts or something. You make no sense.

It's based on facts, feats, supported assumptions and logical deduction.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
In the SW universe it's impossible to determine what if kind of questions. . .
that, and versus things are only possible if we use facts and don't add in the what ifs...

It's not impossible, but harder.

Originally posted by overlord
Of course not, you idiot. What the hell is that list based on!! Go chuckle away with Blaxicans posts or something. You make no sense.

Lol,I think overlord's feelinsg are hurt.

lol yeah that was just what I was thinking.

lol. Im sorry overlord

It's because I said that he wasn't funny, and he kind of took it to heart.

I can imagine the pain, my heart would breal if someone told me that all the useless trollign that I do daily has no meaning...

L0Locopter, I don't even have feelings. But Kent, you say you're suspicions of Mace being the best at everything are based on facts, feats, supported assumptions and logical deduction..

Well.. Let's see it in this page or in a cool large thread from you.
Coming up with a large set of arguments and such for a theory you hold in a thread is never bad in a forum. Let's see it! Maybe I'll even get the Janus signal from upstairs and start signalling him to kill you but that's something I don't think will be necessary.

You see this is why I don't think you're funny Overlord. It's no bad thing, don't take it to heart. I'm sure you have other qualities.

Would you stop bitching and moaning about me supposed to be funny. If you must know, I am a freaking *******. I just hope that you people will say something funny in response. This happens not very often but I still continue my way of communicating because I am still freaking bored.
Go talk about your precious Mace Windu before I unleash the dogs of war against you. I don't want to be funny and I know full well that you think I'm not funny. Who the hell cares, then I'm serious instead of silly. Quit your nonsense.
"you see: This is why I don't think you are funny" What the hell are you talking about. What the hell do you mean by THIS. You are some paranoid moron aren't you? Do you honestly think that my last post was meant funny? GO MAKE A F*CKING MACE THREAD!!!!! Don't go review the way my post was written. Are you some lame sock returned with a grudge or something? Did I hurt your feelings in a past KMC life? Go talk about yourself instead of me or go talk about your idol Mace Windu.

If you still don't get the hint now. I think I'll have to eat you.

...

YAY I PWNED YU!! Now go make up a story to why Mace is the best in everything, you turd.

Acyually it was in response to 'If you must know, I am a freaking *******. I just hope that you people will say something funny in response.'

Originally posted by overlord
Would you stop bitching and moaning about me supposed to be funny. If you must know, I am a freaking *******. I just hope that you people will say something funny in response. This happens not very often but I still continue my way of communicating because I am still freaking bored.
Go talk about your precious Mace Windu before I unleash the dogs of war against you. I don't want to be funny and I know full well that you think I'm not funny. Who the hell cares, then I'm serious instead of silly. Quit your nonsense.
"you see: This is why I don't think you are funny" What the hell are you talking about. What the hell do you mean by THIS. You are some paranoid moron aren't you? Do you honestly think that my last post was meant funny? GO MAKE A F*CKING MACE THREAD!!!!! Don't go review the way my post was written. Are you some lame sock returned with a grudge or something? Did I hurt your feelings in a past KMC life? Go talk about yourself instead of me or go talk about your idol Mace Windu.

If you still don't get the hint now. I think I'll have to eat you.

Originally posted by overlord
Would you stop bitching and moaning about me supposed to be funny. If you must know, I am a freaking *******. I just hope that you people will say something funny in response. This happens not very often but I still continue my way of communicating because I am still freaking bored.
Go talk about your precious Mace Windu before I unleash the dogs of war against you. I don't want to be funny and I know full well that you think I'm not funny. Who the hell cares, then I'm serious instead of silly. Quit your nonsense.
"you see: This is why I don't think you are funny" What the hell are you talking about. What the hell do you mean by THIS. You are some paranoid moron aren't you? Do you honestly think that my last post was meant funny? GO MAKE A F*CKING MACE THREAD!!!!! Don't go review the way my post was written. Are you some lame sock returned with a grudge or something? Did I hurt your feelings in a past KMC life? Go talk about yourself instead of me or go talk about your idol Mace Windu.

If you still don't get the hint now. I think I'll have to eat you. Dude.. that's just awesome.

To assume that Anakin would defeat Dooku would be to assume that he would stand a chance against Yoda and if you think he could go make friends with a poisonous reptile. . .Dooku slapped Kenobi around like he was his b!tch. Kenobi held up against and even outsmarted Anakin. The truth is the "Chosen One" only has the potential not the skill. To be honest all you Skywalker fanboys ( Luke's included) need to shut the f*ck up, they aren't that great. Just because they are the main characters of the saga does not make them the absolute-no-question-about-it most powerful. . .

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
To assume that Anakin would defeat Dooku would be to assume that he would stand a chance against Yoda and if you think he could go make friends with a poisonous reptile. . .Dooku slapped Kenobi around like he was his b!tch. Kenobi held up against and even outsmarted Anakin. The truth is the "Chosen One" only has the potential not the skill. To be honest all you Skywalker fanboys ( Luke's included) need to shut the f*ck up, they aren't that great. Just because they are the main characters of the saga does not make them the absolute-no-question-about-it most powerful. . .

I'm sorry who won in Revenge of the Sith? Anakin or Dooku? Anakin. In a lightsaber fight Anakin does stand a chance against Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, and a lot others. Obi-Wan wasn't defeated by Dooku due to his lightsaber skills but by Dooku's knowledge of the Force.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
I'm sorry who won in Revenge of the Sith? Anakin or Dooku? Anakin. In a lightsaber fight Anakin does stand a chance against Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, and a lot others. Obi-Wan wasn't defeated by Dooku due to his lightsaber skills but by Dooku's knowledge of the Force.

Hahahaha. Yoda would make Anakin's pea-sized brain explode before he could even ignite his saber. . .even if Dooku beat Kenobi with the force, that means he could do the same. Shien is a little knock-off of Soresu created by Soresu practitioners that lacked defensive skill. Makashi is the ultimate lightsaber-to-lightsaber form. Anakin and Obi-Wan are Dooku's speciality. . .

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Anakin and Obi-Wan are Dooku's speciality. . .

Hahahaha. AMEN!!!!!

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Hahahaha. Yoda would make Anakin's pea-sized brain explode before he could even ignite his saber. . .even if Dooku beat Kenobi with the force, that means he could do the same. Shien is a little knock-off of Soresu created by Soresu practitioners that lacked defensive skill. Makashi is the ultimate lightsaber-to-lightsaber form. Anakin and Obi-Wan are Dooku's speciality. . .

Anakin defeated Dooku. Which means Anakin would do a lot better against Yoda then Dooku did.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Anakin defeated Dooku. Which means Anakin would do a lot better against Yoda then Dooku did.

No. Thats an A<B<C arument which dont work. Yoda was Dookus master thus knowing many of Dookus moves and skills. And anyway Dooku wtf pwned Anakin in AOTC. Meaning Anakin wouldnt stand a chance against Yoda in AOTC. But they have both improved vastly since then in ROTS. We dont know how good Dooku would do against Yoda if he fought him again in ROTS. So again we wont know how good Anakin will do against Yoda either.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Anakin defeated Dooku. Which means Anakin would do a lot better against Yoda then Dooku did.

That post screams "fanboy" does it not Rampant Ox?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No. Thats an A<B<C arument which dont work. Yoda was Dookus master thus knowing many of Dookus moves and skills. And anyway Dooku wtf pwned Anakin in AOTC. Meaning Anakin wouldnt stand a chance against Yoda in AOTC. But they have both improved vastly since then in ROTS. We dont know how good Dooku would do against Yoda if he fought him again in ROTS. So again we wont know how good Anakin will do against Yoda either.

Same outcome. Yoda and Dooku didn't improve that much during the Clone Wars. After all both were barely on the battlefields and both have already reached their peeks basically. Anakin on the other head wasn't near his prime in Attack of the Clones and he did vastly improve during the Clone Wars.

Yoda was gasping for air after that few seconds of fighting Dooku. Don't believe watch again. Anakin wasn't even tired after slicing off Dooku's head.

And Dooku didn't pwn Anakin. He defeated Anakin but didn't pwn him.

Im sorry but Dooku through Anakin into a wall with force lightning and then chopped his arm off. I think that means that Dooku pwned Anakin.
No Anakin didnt LOOK tired after his fight with Dooku - but that doesnt mean he wasnt. Also Dooku didnt look tired either. They both could have kept fighting for a lot longer. However Anakin got lucky and managed to perform a tricky manouvre which defeated Dooku.This was manouvre was the reason Dooku lost - and it probably could have been avoided if Dooku wasnt being so arrogant and taunting Skywalker.

Rampant Ox and Pyro -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rampant Ox and Pyro -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Thank you

The major point you are missing is that DOOKU WASNT THERE TO KILL ANAKIN!!! Dooku was under the impression that Aankin was to be a general in the new army and was to be turned to the dark side. Yes in the bigger picture Sids was wanting to see whether Dooku or Anakin would win - but Dooku thought that Sids was still loyal. Then add in the fact Dooku was taunting Anakin much of the battle and that he was under the impression Sids would step in to help if anything was to go wrong.

The battle was clearly in Anakins favor. Anakin has far more potential than the Count, I am not arguing that, but in ROTS Dooku was still better - and would have won if it was a fair fight.

well i think had anakin shown up alone and tried to take on dooku and dooku was out to kill straight out, he probably would have won. dooku managed both of them at once briefly, he managed anakin solo for a while, and then obi wan showed up again. everyone forgets, or fails to notice that dooku did actually drop both of them in rots, he broke both their defences, he kicked anakin and used the force on obi wan, but he could have done the opposite and kicked obi wan and dealt a more serious injury to anakin.

in the rematch he pushed anakin too far and anakin had more stamina and strength than dooku and overpowered him. in terms of skill i think dooku was slightly better than anakin, but anakins strength and anger were too much. he was alot younger and had much more energy. and dooku pushed him too far.

but the count did break through both of their defences, anakin with a pretty standard melee attack and obi wans with the force. he just didnt have enough left to take on someone as close to his skill as anakin, especially when anakin had only gotten angrier and stronger, where dookus age caught up to him and hed exhausted most of his power.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
I'm sorry who won in Revenge of the Sith? Anakin or Dooku? Anakin. In a lightsaber fight Anakin does stand a chance against Yoda, Mace, Palpatine, and a lot others. Obi-Wan wasn't defeated by Dooku due to his lightsaber skills but by Dooku's knowledge of the Force.

I'm sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. Dooku utilising offensive force powers in a duel is part of his saber style. Don't differentiate them. Dooku's saber style is his own variation of Makashi which also happens to be one handed. This means that he always has one hand free, so if he is able to outduel his opponent into a vulnerable position and if he is able to mantain enough concentration, then he is able to pull of some nice offensive force powers. It is part of his style. Dooku outdueled both Anakin and Obi-Wan into vulnerable positions, and was thus able to temporarily deal with Anakin with a force lift and kick while force throwing the crap out of Kenobi. It was through a lightsaber duel that Dooku was able to defeat Kenobi, sorry to break it to you.

Originally posted by Escape81
Rampant Ox and Pyro -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

I have recently been informed that canon is considered ultimate on these forums, and that the movies are a higher form of canon then the scripts. This means that they can come to any interpretation of the films they want, and place their opinion over the scripts based on their interpretation. You will just have to agree to disagree. The point is that they are not arguing against facts.

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

You need to learn and understand the context that words are used in. Palpatine said, 'Far younger and far more powerful.' Palpatine could have been linking both words together when he said this (I'm not saying he was, but he could have and it can be argued for) which would imply he meant 'powerful' as in 'potential'.

Another point: don't rely on quotes, they can be inaccurate, invalid, ungenuine and contradicted.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Acyually it was in response to 'If you must know, I am a freaking *******. I just hope that you people will say something funny in response.' Oh yeah, I could've smelled that.. Sorry, dude!
Originally posted by Rampant ox
The major point you are missing is that DOOKU WASNT THERE TO KILL ANAKIN!!! Dooku was under the impression that Aankin was to be a general in the new army and was to be turned to the dark side. Yes in the bigger picture Sids was wanting to see whether Dooku or Anakin would win - but Dooku thought that Sids was still loyal. Then add in the fact Dooku was taunting Anakin much of the battle and that he was under the impression Sids would step in to help if anything was to go wrong.

The battle was clearly in Anakins favor. Anakin has far more potential than the Count, I am not arguing that, but in ROTS Dooku was still better - and would have won if it was a fair fight. He wasn't under the impression that Sidious would help him. And if he was toying with Anakin and not there to fight seriously then he shouldn't have suddenly noticed that his hands were gone. You don't lose concentration or focus when you are not fully fighting aggressively. Dooku would have lost in any fight with Anakin. Anakin just is a bit better and just better in tune with the force, *****.

Again overlord took the words out of my mouth. Dooku tried to defeat Anakin and Anakin won. Ani broke through Dooku's defense twice in ROTS. Once to kick him over the guard rail and again to slice off his arms.

Is this arguement still going on. First off to the guy with the so called scripts. How do you know they are actual copies and where did you get them? I hope you did not get them from supershadow.com. Cause if you did then they are fake. Also I am curious to why a discussion of this nature is on the EU board. Shouldn't it be on the prequal boards. Me and Ox argued a lot over the Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan fight. In the end we were forced to disagree. I do however believe the Dooku was not trying his hardest in the beginning. I have noticed something about Dooku. He likes to taunt the people he fights. We see this in AOTC and in ROTS. By the time his arrogance started to fade he was already on the defensive and soon after his hands were gone. Not to mention I would not be surprised if he had expected Sidious to help him. I believe Anakin and Obi-Wan are at about the same level as Dooku lightsaber skill wise but not force strength wise. As for Sidious's comment on having a younger and stronger apprentice, he was refering to the raw power of anakin. Not to mention he knew that if properly trained Anakin would become unstopable. He also thought that because Anakin completly trusted him that he would never betray him. So he was not worried about Anakin's power. I am not an Anakin fan. I hate the whiny punk. I do however like OT Vader.

Originally posted by Count Kent
I have recently been informed that canon is considered ultimate on these forums, and that the movies are a higher form of canon then the scripts. This means that they can come to any interpretation of the films they want, and place their opinion over the scripts based on their interpretation. You will just have to agree to disagree. The point is that they are not arguing against facts.

Not even close. Scripts are on par with the movies, minus scenes and lines that didn't make it into the film. And yes, yes they are arguing against the facts...

Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
Is this arguement still going on. First off to the guy with the so called scripts. How do you know they are actual copies and where did you get them? I hope you did not get them from supershadow.com. Cause if you did then they are fake. Also I am curious to why a discussion of this nature is on the EU board. Shouldn't it be on the prequal boards. Me and Ox argued a lot over the Dooku, Anakin and Obi-Wan fight. In the end we were forced to disagree. I do however believe the Dooku was not trying his hardest in the beginning. I have noticed something about Dooku. He likes to taunt the people he fights. We see this in AOTC and in ROTS. By the time his arrogance started to fade he was already on the defensive and soon after his hands were gone. Not to mention I would not be surprised if he had expected Sidious to help him. I believe Anakin and Obi-Wan are at about the same level as Dooku lightsaber skill wise but not force strength wise. As for Sidious's comment on having a younger and stronger apprentice, he was refering to the raw power of anakin. Not to mention he knew that if properly trained Anakin would become unstopable. He also thought that because Anakin completly trusted him that he would never betray him. So he was not worried about Anakin's power. I am not an Anakin fan. I hate the whiny punk. I do however like OT Vader.

Thankyou.

Basically the Count could have won at the beginnig had he gone all out. He did manage to hold them both off with ease and had many opportunities to kill Anakin. But he decided to taunt instead of fight properly - causing Anakin to bacome to powerful for even the mighty Count to handle. At the end Dooku had basically dug himself a hole which he couldnt get out of. He should have just killed Anakin at the beginning of the battle but instead decided to make Anakin stronger. His arrogance was his downfall - not the skill of Skywalker.

Yeah, he made Anakin stronger, pretty stupid huh.. Oh wait, you have no idea what you are talking about.. Ah, damn..

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thankyou.

Basically the Count could have won at the beginnig had he gone all out. He did manage to hold them both off with ease and had many opportunities to kill Anakin. But he decided to taunt instead of fight properly - causing Anakin to bacome to powerful for even the mighty Count to handle. At the end Dooku had basically dug himself a hole which he couldnt get out of. He should have just killed Anakin at the beginning of the battle but instead decided to make Anakin stronger. His arrogance was his downfall - not the skill of Skywalker. I do remember Anakin having a chance to kill Dooku at the start of the battle, funny. I'd agree if you said that Dooku has better Force control than Anakin, but in saber skills I'm going to put it in doubt. Nothing has ever said that Dooku was holding back the entire fight, he'd been played into thinking that Sidious would save his sorry ass if he lost the duel. So what? Does that suddenly become the equivilant to "Dooku thought Palpatine would save him(A), so Dooku must've been holding back(B)." A doesn't always equal B, Rampant. And as overlord said, it was stupid of Dooku to provoke Anakin into using his anger as a weapon, in fact, it was the worst decision of his life.

Firstly, Lucas states in the commentary that he was there to fight Anakin.

Secondly, then how the hell would Palpatine's plan work? How the hell could he successfully gauge Anakin's abilities if the entire fight was a set up? If Dooku were holding back, Palpatine's plan would make ZERO sense.

Thirdly, Lucas himself said that the fight was engineered to see if Anakin could defeat Dooku. If he didn't, the original plan was to wait and then try again.

Dooku was there to KILL him.



Which is the point.

Palpatine, aka Mr. I-Want-The-Most-Powerful-Apprentice, pit them against each other so that he could see which one was stronger. Anakin came out on top. Argument OVER.



Dooku's taunts were what caused Anakin to use his hate to overpower Dooku in the first place. Secondly, Sidious made it appear to Dooku that it was a test.

Labyrinth of Evil and RotS novelizations make it clear. Sidious was toying with Dooku, telling him that it was a test to gauge Skywalker's abilities - but that he doubted Anakin would win. He said that if by some chance, Skywalker does beat you he could control the outcome.

But what does he do?

He sees that Anakin is better, and betrays Dooku and persuades Anakin to kill him. Thus allowing Anakin to take Dooku's place and wrapping up a loose end.



The battle was in Anakin's favor because he was better. RotS Dooku was not better.

Sidious: "soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

Don't gimme that line of "potential".

Palpatine didn't say potential did he?

Nope.

Point moot. Anakin was simply better than Dooku. The magical end.

Indeed. No matter how much BS people spurt out, the fact is, Dooku got...

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Indeed. No matter how much BS people spurt out, the fact is, Dooku got... He got http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/LordSaboteur/KMC%20Forum%20Pics/dookupwned.jpg by Sidious and Anakin.

Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.

Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof.

Originally posted by DE Luke
Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.

Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof. Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely.

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely. Thanks.Had a few mispellings in it because I was in a rush,but I'm sure they understood what I was getting at.

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Awesome rant, DE Luke. I agree with this entirely.

I agree too (though this was Escape81's Rant) but its right at any rate.

(BTW. You should quote other peoples words DE Luke, not post them as your own words, even if you acknowledge its not yours in the post...just saying)

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I agree too (though this was Escape81's Rant) but its right at any rate.

(BTW. You should quote other peoples words DE Luke, not post them as your own words, even if you acknowledge its not yours in the post...just saying) Escape's post was EXACTLY what I was going to post before,I figured since he did it already that I'd just borrow it instead of me doing the same exact thing(saved me A LOT of typing too).And secondly,the most likely would be that those fanboys would just overlook it instead of reading it.Consider it to be a bump of a quote with my opinion added to it.

Heh, thats cool. But really, the fanboys already overlooked it when Escape81 posted it before. If they had listened then this "debate" would be over.

But alas, they refuse to see facts.

I'd say is goes like this for lightsaber skill.

1. Yoda
2. Dooku
3. Mace
4. Sidious

For force powers,

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace

Anakin and Obi-wan are equal in force powers. That was confirmed in ep3 when they tried to force push eachother and stalemated.

As for the thought that Anakin is better then Dooku, I certainly don't agree with it. How can you explain Dooku pwning Obi-wan and then Obi-wan defeating Anakin? Don't give me that Obi-wan was smarter crap as Dooku was smart too. Did Anakin suddenly get mentally retarded when he fought Obi-wan? No. He was no less intelligent there then he was when he faced Dooku. The reason for Sidious' statement is simple. Anakin was infact more powerful. He was not as finessed though. Raw power without finesse gives you an Anakin that would lose to Dooku if Dooku was trying to kill him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'd say is goes like this for lightsaber skill.

1. Yoda
2. Dooku
3. Mace
4. Sidious

For force powers,

1. Sidious
2. Yoda
3. Dooku
4. Mace

Anakin and Obi-wan are equal in force powers. That was confirmed in ep3 when they tried to force push eachother and stalemated.

As for the thought that Anakin is better then Dooku, I certainly don't agree with it. How can you explain Dooku pwning Obi-wan and then Obi-wan defeating Anakin? Don't give me that Obi-wan was smarter crap as Dooku was smart too. Did Anakin suddenly get mentally retarded when he fought Obi-wan? No. He was no less intelligent there then he was when he faced Dooku. The reason for Sidious' statement is simple. Anakin was infact more powerful. He was not as finessed though. Raw power without finesse gives you an Anakin that would lose to Dooku if Dooku was trying to kill him. Did you even READ the ROTS novel,or the script,or even LISTEN to the Commentary by George Lucas himself?DOOKU WAS FIGHTING AT HIS BEST!!!!Now you fanboys seem to think that you can somehow override Lucas' words with your own opinion?If so,then forget it.Lucas is the Ultimate Source of Canon,not you(which I THANK GOD for).Again,it all states that Dooku was going AT HIS HARDEST when fighting both Anakin and Obi-Wan,He did NOT tool Obi-Wan easily.it even says he was using his last reserves of power so as to narrow it down somewhat so HE wouldn't be tooled by them both,from the ROTS novel even though it isn't in my own words,it's there.Again,will you fanboys listen to logic instead of your overbiased opinions and READ the novel?It,the script and Lucas ALL state that Dooku was going at his HARDEST.Read the novel,it even says he was having trouble with them both BEFORE he got Obi-Wan out of the fight.Read it if you don't believe me,you'll see that you're wrong.

This is a neat little quote I found.

From the Making of ROTS, page 205

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't gotten all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor"

Now, "if" Anakin "hadn't" gotten all beat up, he "could (not would)" have beat the Emperor. Is this referring to a theoretical Anakin a few years later or Anakin as of RotS? If it is, he's pretty much putting Anakin a tier above of Obi-Wan.

Now, about the RotS novelization... it's one man's interpretation and it does contradict the movie. It is quite a shaky source.

However, the novelization claims that all three (Kenobi, Anakin and Dooku) were playing around at the beginning. This kinda makes sense because Ani and Obi move quite slow. Dooku loses his patience and Kenobi goes flying. Now, at this point, Dooku starts going easy on Anakin again. Later, he realizes that he cannot control the boy. He tries quite hard and loses.

Now, it's possible that Anakin was the superior saber duelist to Dooku but he could not have been the superior force user because he stalemates Obi-Wan who's force defense could not resist Dooku's grip. Maybe Dooku thought he could take out Anakin with his saber? Maybe... he thought he didn't need force powers? Maybe he thought they wouldn't work? Either way, he refrains from using them.

Sheesh. You keep misenterpreting what I am saying. Look at it like this:

Fact: Two against one.

Fact: Dooku WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION that Sids would step in to help if anything went wrong. We all know that Sids was just pittng the two against each other but Dooku didnt.

Fact: Dooku didnt use the force once on Anakin.

Fact:Anakin was to be used as a general in the new army. However Sids just wanted to see one kill the other. Dooku wasnt aware of this though and thought his master was loyal.

Fact: Dooku spent much of the duel taunting Anakin.

Also Sids quote about a far more powerful apprentice means jack sh*t. I recall Dooku saying that he is more powerful than any jedi. Wrong. And Yoda said that Sids rule was at an end and not short enough it was. Wrong also. My point is SW characters blow things out of proportion all the time. We cant use Sids quote as proof because it is merely his opinion.

So once again what I am saying is that at the start of the battle Dooku would have won. For example when he was blocking both their sabers at nce with one hand. He could easily have fired some sith lightning with his other hand then but didnt. But as the fight progressed and he got Anakin more and more angry he had doomed himself. He was physically not strong enough to stand up to a fully angered Anakin. Taunting Skywalker cost the Count his life.

Wow, you have come a long way from your blinding fanboyism since the "Its not fair" thread..

Really? Thats the one in the OT Forum isnt it. Hahaha ill go and have a look.

Just one point: 'far more powerful and far younger' could easily be interpreted as potential, as Sidious could have been linking both words together into one meaning. He could have also meant that Anakin was far more powerful to the jedi order, that he would have been able to cause more destruction as the jedi already seem to trust him to a degree (this is shown through Vader's purge of the jedi and his striking down of the jedi).

@ DE Luke, please don't call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Rampant Ox may be known as a fanboy but at least he is not debating unreasonably and the same goes to Pyro. And since when has Glentract been a fanboy? You have no right to call anyone a fanboy if all that you can do is copy and paste other people's posts and pass them off as your own.

Originally posted by Count Kent
Just one point: 'far more powerful and far younger' could easily be interpreted as potential, as Sidious could have been linking both words together into one meaning. He could have also meant that Anakin was far more powerful to the jedi order, that he would have been able to cause more destruction as the jedi already seem to trust him to a degree (this is shown through Vader's purge of the jedi and his striking down of the jedi).

@ DE Luke, please don't call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Rampant Ox may be known as a fanboy but at least he is not debating unreasonably and the same goes to Pyro. And since when has Glentract been a fanboy? You have no right to call anyone a fanboy if all that you can do is copy and paste other people's posts and pass them off as your own.

F*ck yeah! Thank you, Kent. . .

Originally posted by DE Luke
Rampant Ox,Pyro and Jam Jul -

You're both arguing against facts, not with them.

Fact: The script and commentary prove that Count Dooku was fighting his absolute hardest against Anakin, and Anakin was simply better and overpowered him.

Fact: Palpatine wants the more powerful Sith Lord to be his apprentice.

Fact: Palpatine pitted Anakin against Dooku to see who would win, and that person would maintain the status of his apprentice.

Fact: Dooku lost.

Fact: That makes Anakin more powerful than Dooku.

Fact: Sidious told General Grievous that, soon, he would "have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

So, because I've said this time and time again - I'll make sure you get the jist:

Palpatine wants the more powerful person to be his apprentice. So he sets Anakin up against Dooku. Dooku loses. Thus, proving, that Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Palpatine tells Grievous that Anakin is more powerful. The script and commentary show us this as well.

So, the both of you have no argument.

Your bias and your opinions can remain, but you're both wrong. Not because I say you are, but because proof is against you, and you have NONE but speculation.

Anakin > Dooku.

End. Of. Story.

Don't include your overbiased opinions as proof.Seriously,it even says in the book that even before Dooku through Obi-Wan into the prailing,Dooku was having a hard time keeping up,he only through Obi-Wan because he couldn't hold both of them off at the same time and was having enough trouble doing it WITH Obi-Wan in the duel.Anakin killed Dooku.If Dooku was skilled enough as you say,then he wouldn't have had trouble with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first place!Logic>Fanboyism.

Sorry to borrow your quote,Escape.Just needed to show these fanboys that their overbiased opinion doesn't count as proof.

Originally posted by Escape81
Firstly, Lucas states in the commentary that he was there to fight Anakin.

Secondly, then how the hell would Palpatine's plan work? How the hell could he successfully gauge Anakin's abilities if the entire fight was a set up? If Dooku were holding back, Palpatine's plan would make ZERO sense.

Thirdly, Lucas himself said that the fight was engineered to see if Anakin could defeat Dooku. If he didn't, the original plan was to wait and then try again.

Dooku was there to KILL him.



Which is the point.

Palpatine, aka Mr. I-Want-The-Most-Powerful-Apprentice, pit them against each other so that he could see which one was stronger. Anakin came out on top. Argument OVER.



Dooku's taunts were what caused Anakin to use his hate to overpower Dooku in the first place. Secondly, Sidious made it appear to Dooku that it was a test.

Labyrinth of Evil and RotS novelizations make it clear. Sidious was toying with Dooku, telling him that it was a test to gauge Skywalker's abilities - but that he doubted Anakin would win. He said that if by some chance, Skywalker does beat you he could control the outcome.

But what does he do?

He sees that Anakin is better, and betrays Dooku and persuades Anakin to kill him. Thus allowing Anakin to take Dooku's place and wrapping up a loose end.



The battle was in Anakin's favor because he was better. RotS Dooku was not better.

Sidious: "soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful."

Don't gimme that line of "potential".

Palpatine didn't say potential did he?

Nope.

Point moot. Anakin was simply better than Dooku. The magical end.

Go stop breathing. . .do it. . .

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Go stop breathing. . .do it. . . It's not our fault you can't provide proof that your man Dooku is as good as your overbiased opinion says,fanboy.Don't whine and complain to us.

Are you not going to reply to my point Luke?

You have no point. You interpretate it wrong. Anakin had potential and proved it by overpowering Dooku. This actually happened. Dooku didn't forsee his limbs being torn off by the blade, he could've died immediately, this doesn't sound like toying with Anakin to me. This sounds like losing to me. Also, Rampant Ox, shut the hell up with your "awww.. But Dooku thought the tied up Sidious would come to his rescue!"
It's a lightsaber fight, it can be over in one second.

@Darth Glentract: Wow, the old 'Obi Wan made Anakin slip up, that means Anakin is weaker than Dooku as well' theory. It's flawed. And I can't picture Dooku being better than Mace as well.

Overlord has a point. You can't just expect someone to disarm, literally as well. If an opponent gets an oppertunity to strike at the head he probably will, and then you will be dead.....

Yeah, Overlord's right (it's pretty much from the ROTS novelization and the expression you can see on Dooku's face when his arms were cut off).

Originally posted by DE Luke
It's not our fault you can't provide proof that your man Dooku is as good as your overbiased opinion says,fanboy.Don't whine and complain to us.

I'm not whining and complaining you stupid dumbf*ck. I have already stated facts and opinions it's your fault if your to much of a stupid a$$ to understand. Your one to be calling out fanboy, when you got DE Luke practically up your a$$. Don't point fingers, you sorry f*ck. . .

Dooku is worthy of the praise and fandom he gets. Luke, you're a troll and you can't argue.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
I'm not whining and complaining you stupid dumbf*ck. I have already stated facts and opinions it's your fault if your to much of a stupid a$$ to understand. Your one to be calling out fanboy, when you got DE Luke practically up your a$$. Don't point fingers, you sorry f*ck. . .

Hahaha. I agree. And thanks for the support Count Kent. BTW I like your sig Council #13. Saruman rocks!!

Wasn't Dooku ordered to not kill Anakin, so he wasn't at his best really. Then in the chance he would be killed, Sidious would have stepped in. Course I read this on Wikipedia, so not saying I'm an expert

No, what I do is offer proof from an irrefutable source that negates your beliefs. Yours are opinions. Nothing more.



What's your point? Weren't you the one arguing that Kenobi was almost a non-factor in this entire argument?



Yes, Dooku was under the impression that Palpatine would save his ass if he got handed to him. But that wasn't an excuse for Dooku to go easy on Anakin. In the supposed "unlikely event" (as Sidious himself says) that Anakin gets the better of Dooku, he would interfere. But he didn't.



Point being? Perhaps he thought that he could best him simply with his lightsaber prowess. I don't argue that Dooku had more Force control than Anakin. Hell, Dooku has 75+ years of using the Force where Anakin has about 11. But, Anakin's raw power far exceeds Dooku's. This is about the duel.

Anakin > Dooku in lightsaber combat.



Dooku thought that Anakin would be a general, if he proved himself to Sidious.



Yup. Because, like Anakin and Palpatine, Dooku is very arrogant. It's these taunts that end up causing his downfall, anyway. His "hate" and "rage" are the things that give Anakin the power to defeat Dooku.



Dead wrong.

Sidious's quote means a hell of a lot. Aside from Yoda, Sidious is the one who knows more about Dooku as a Force-user and a warrior. Hell, he is the Count's master. To top it off, he's also been closely monitoring Anakin. He is perhaps the only person who can safely judge Dooku's powers in comparison to Anakin's.



Once again - Dooku's arrogance. He assumed. How was Palpatine's statement regarding Anakin and Dooku arrogant? He has no reason to delude himself - especially when he is the one who is obsessed with having the most powerful apprentice.



Once again - Yoda was arrogant to assume that he'd wipe Palpatine off the face of Coruscant. He was wrong because he, like Dooku, underestimated his opponent's strength and cunning.



About themselves, I totally agree.



An opinion supported by over a decade's worth of monitoring both Dooku and Anakin.

You're entitled to your opinion, as we all are.



Simple. Obi-Wan knew Anakin. Far better than Dooku, and perhaps even better than Palpatine. He's spent years sparring with Anakin and fighting alongside him. He knows how he fights, his weaknesses, his aggression, and Kenobi had the psychological edge as well. Anakin was reckless. Go watch the commentary of RotS. I believe that Lucas credits Kenobi's victory to his patience and experience - though I may be mistaken.



It's not really about intellect. Anakin's not an idiot. He's a gifted pilot, a gifted tactition, and is a genius with anything mechanical. But he is reckless, impatient, and has a very weak will.



Anakin was never 'retarded' in either case.



Sidious didn't say "raw power". The script, commentary, Lucas, and Palpatine's own words make me believe that Anakin was simply more powerful than Dooku - at the time of RotS.