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I have this friend that persists that Phoenix and all its incarnations can beat Scarlet Witch. I say that he is crazy because Scarlet Witch changes *reality*/molecular structure of anything/prevent any form of telepathy against her/cast spells on self or others/change the past or present/alter probabilty/and even revive people from death like Quicksilver after Magneto pwned him. While Phoenix force cannot use its power without a host and a host with Phoenix force can't even use all its power without killing the host. Also I want to know how long did it take Phoenix to heal Jean Grey from radiation poisioning because he argues with me about how powerful she is and it took forever to do a small thing like that. Whereas Wanda revived Pietro quickly. But we been arguing back and forth and I even printed out this proof (SW controls causality itself, as Xavier said in Excalibur. That means anything that falls in the realm of possibility (which is EVERYTHING) falls under the control of Wanda. Her power reached throughout the universe, altering past and present. As a side effect of her power, she inadvertently tore open a hole between realities, and her power leaked through it, caused all kinds of destruction that collapsed countless universes (read the HoM issues of Uncanny X-men for details). The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.) and he still tries to defend Phoenix. I need everyones say on this defending Scarlet Witch because she is obviously more powerful. With comic book facts etc.

your friend is right dude. The witch is a corpse

Scarlet Witch is powerful, but the only one(s) who can beat Phoenix are TOAA and possibly LT. Scarlet Witch dies instantly here.

Guys I need tons more replies on this. Please help.

Big Sexy is right, Wanda is a corpse. Wanda's chaos wave was a side effect of her power, not sustained by it. Its like if u throw a rock in water, the waves are created by your action but you do not control the power and direction of the waves. Since then, the Phoenix has grown more powerful, back then, she and Jean had not completely merged yet. Wanda may control causality, but Jean is beyond causality. Nothing short of TOAA can bring her down. Jean can do everything Wanda can do...but better

Umm.... well... the witch loses.

Originally posted by MajinSSJ6Goku
I have this friend that persists that Phoenix and all its incarnations can beat Scarlet Witch. I say that he is crazy because Scarlet Witch changes *reality*/molecular structure of anything/prevent any form of telepathy against her/cast spells on self or others/change the past or present/alter probabilty/and even revive people from death like Quicksilver after Magneto pwned him. While Phoenix force cannot use its power without a host and a host with Phoenix force can't even use all its power without killing the host. Also I want to know how long did it take Phoenix to heal Jean Grey from radiation poisioning because he argues with me about how powerful she is and it took forever to do a small thing like that. Whereas Wanda revived Pietro quickly. But we been arguing back and forth and I even printed out this proof (SW controls causality itself, as Xavier said in Excalibur. That means anything that falls in the realm of possibility (which is EVERYTHING) falls under the control of Wanda. Her power reached throughout the universe, altering past and present. As a side effect of her power, she inadvertently tore open a hole between realities, and her power leaked through it, caused all kinds of destruction that collapsed countless universes (read the HoM issues of Uncanny X-men for details). The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.) and he still tries to defend Phoenix. I need everyones say on this defending Scarlet Witch because she is obviously more powerful. With comic book facts etc.

You're WAY off and your friend is correct.

Forget it. To many people are on the fan favorite Phoenix Force nuts. Heck I am better off saying Wanda vs Jean Grey no Phoenix Force who would win.

The problem is you seemed to not know much of the Phoenix force. According to marvel continuity now she is the means of who will create the multiverse and who will destroy it. She completes this cycle and is the reason that beings like Galactus even exist. I know that their have been comics where she acts like a regular xman but she has held the 616 universe in her hand. Beings like the LT or Eternity give her respect which says a lot

Originally posted by MajinSSJ6Goku
Forget it. To many people are on the fan favorite Phoenix Force nuts. Heck I am better off saying Wanda vs Jean Grey no Phoenix Force who would win.

Jean and Phoenix are one and the same, there can be no separating of the two. However, if u were to say Wanda vs. jean pre-final evolution, then of course Wanda would win

phoenix wins easy

wtf is scarlet gonna do to her ?

What I want to know is, what is Phoenix doing right now in the official storyline? And Scarlet Witch. Where can I find the plot canon guide to the entire x-men series. Me and this guy still going at it. I have to constantly tell him that Phoenix is getting her ass stomped to shards by Xorn and Magneto etc. I liked that picture with Phoenix getting that butt kicked. "jgg!!" pwnage. On top of that Xorn was ACCIDENTLY made by Wanda which beat Phoenix now thats power.

To diabloman: Scarlet Witch can seal her powers forever or even make Jean never be born by altering time, turn her in a roll of toilet paper, blast her to shreads, alter all realities on her. Or beat her senseless with that Captain America training LOL.

Anyone?

Originally posted by MajinSSJ6Goku
What I want to know is, what is Phoenix doing right now in the official storyline? And Scarlet Witch. Where can I find the plot canon guide to the entire x-men series. Me and this guy still going at it. I have to constantly tell him that Phoenix is getting her ass stomped to shards by Xorn and Magneto etc. I liked that picture with Phoenix getting that butt kicked. "jgg!!" pwnage. On top of that Xorn was ACCIDENTLY made by Wanda which beat Phoenix now thats power.

To diabloman: Scarlet Witch can seal her powers forever or even make Jean never be born by altering time, turn her in a roll of toilet paper, blast her to shreads, alter all realities on her. Or beat her senseless with that Captain America training LOL. Yes scarlet witch can alter reality but how does that effect one who is above reality. Currently Phoenix is in the white hot room outside creation. I dont know where SW is.

Originally posted by MajinSSJ6Goku
What I want to know is, what is Phoenix doing right now in the official storyline? And Scarlet Witch. Where can I find the plot canon guide to the entire x-men series. Me and this guy still going at it. I have to constantly tell him that Phoenix is getting her ass stomped to shards by Xorn and Magneto etc. I liked that picture with Phoenix getting that butt kicked. "jgg!!" pwnage. On top of that Xorn was ACCIDENTLY made by Wanda which beat Phoenix now thats power.

To diabloman: Scarlet Witch can seal her powers forever or even make Jean never be born by altering time, turn her in a roll of toilet paper, blast her to shreads, alter all realities on her. Or beat her senseless with that Captain America training LOL.

Phoenix's being killed by Xorn was needed, so that she could disinfect the future, it was even hinted at (in retrospect) right after she was killed and one of the Cuckoos said that something was wrong with gravity and time. If your talking about way back when, when she first appeared and the xmen fought Magneto, it's plain to see that even though her power was great she didn't have nearly as much experience as Magneto at the time, and in her arrogance underestimated his skill. Jean exists as the white Phoenix, she is in the white hot room, and that was off limits to the "chaos wave" Wanda caused, that's why Jamie transported Psylocke and Rachel there to escape it. If for some reason Wanda was allowed to seal Jean and her powers away forever and mess with time to make her never born, the Phoenix would bring her back as it exists outside of reality and apparently causality. When Jean began to manifest her Phoenix powers, her telepathy allowed her to burn through deception(attack on Emma Frost), Wandas reality warps are not a reshaping, just a coverup of what's there, even Layla Miller could see that and she's no Phoenix.

Makes sense. But the fact still remains that SW can own Phoenix but she will always come back so I was right after all.

How exactly is she going to own her? By the time Wanda finishes saying, "No more Phoenix," Jean has already turned off Wanda's mutant ability, caused her heart to explode, makes Wanda say "No more Wanda" instead, or just turn her mind totally off (among other things).

And Phoenix has been shown in What Ifs to wish someone never existed and it happened. As an interesting note, when the Shiar lobotomized Jean Grey in a What If?, she was still able to to manifest her powers as Phoenix, so it appears to be a bit more difficult than trying to wish her away.

Dude you're WRONG. You've been constantly told you're WRONG. Now wake up and face reality.

Originally posted by MajinSSJ6Goku
I have this friend that persists that Phoenix and all its incarnations can beat Scarlet Witch. I say that he is crazy because Scarlet Witch changes *reality*/molecular structure of anything/prevent any form of telepathy against her/cast spells on self or others/change the past or present/alter probabilty/and even revive people from death like Quicksilver after Magneto pwned him. While Phoenix force cannot use its power without a host and a host with Phoenix force can't even use all its power without killing the host. Also I want to know how long did it take Phoenix to heal Jean Grey from radiation poisioning because he argues with me about how powerful she is and it took forever to do a small thing like that. Whereas Wanda revived Pietro quickly. But we been arguing back and forth and I even printed out this proof (SW controls causality itself, as Xavier said in Excalibur. That means anything that falls in the realm of possibility (which is EVERYTHING) falls under the control of Wanda. Her power reached throughout the universe, altering past and present. As a side effect of her power, she inadvertently tore open a hole between realities, and her power leaked through it, caused all kinds of destruction that collapsed countless universes (read the HoM issues of Uncanny X-men for details). The hole needed to be repaired or Wanda would have accidentally destroyed the multiverse - a greater feat of power than had ever been seen in the Marvel Universe.) and he still tries to defend Phoenix. I need everyones say on this defending Scarlet Witch because she is obviously more powerful. With comic book facts etc.

PF wins

I dont think wanda can alter beings above reality, if wanda says "no more LT" or "no more TOAA" do you really think itll happen? I highly doubt it.

geeze, person who made this thread is worse than a hulk fan... pf ftw

HOM Wanda wins

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
HOM Wanda wins

No she doesn't.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
HOM Wanda wins



In a curbstomp.

Jean stomps Wanda. Outclassed here significantly.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Jean stomps Wanda. Outclassed here significantly.

Wanda re-created the enitre 616 Universe. (in control of all its Reality)

Wanda generated and fueld the momentum of the Chaos Wave with her own power subconsciously.

The Chaos Wave was collapsing the Marvel Omniverse.

Wanda gave Layla Miller Multiversal perception.

Wanda accelerated Genis' potential, he was unwittingly blinking the Universe in and out of existence.

Characters like Xavier, and others were becoming more powerful just by approaching Wanda's location.

The Second time Wanda restructured the 616 Reality, (No more Mutants)
she made cracks across All the Realities (the Omniverse)

Wanda was immortal, or able to resurrect herself instantaneously after Hawkeye hit her with a kill shot right in the Heart.


Should I go on?



Now, how does Jean outclass Wanda?

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Yes scarlet witch can alter reality but how does that effect one who is above reality. Currently Phoenix is in the white hot room outside creation. I dont know where SW is.

The exact moment the chaos way hit, Psylocke and Rachel (wielder of the FP) were sent into the White Hot Room. They were sent there to avoid the choas wave, but these scans prove that the Phoenix can still be torn from the White Hot room. The same thing happened in X-men: Phoenix Endsong when the Shi'ar weapontry forced her out early.


The white hot room is not outside of creation, it is simply "the core of creation" - which is shown to be manipulated by Jaime.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4533/whitehotroom1tg0.th.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5232/whitehotroom2bk4.th.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5992/whitehotroom3ma9.th.jpg

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wanda re-created the enitre 616 Universe. (in control of all its Reality)

Wanda generated and fueld the momentum of the Chaos Wave with her own power subconsciously.

The Chaos Wave was collapsing the Marvel Omniverse.

Wanda gave Layla Miller Multiversal perception.

Wanda accelerated Genis' potential, he was unwittingly blinking the Universe in and out of existence.

Characters like Xavier, and others were becoming more powerful just by approaching Wanda's location.

The Second time Wanda restructured the 616 Reality, (No more Mutants)
she made cracks across All the Realities (the Omniverse)

Wanda was immortal, or able to resurrect herself instantaneously after Hawkeye hit her with a kill shot right in the Heart.


Should I go on?



Now, how does Jean outclass Wanda?

Wanda never fueled the Chaos Wave, please show anywhere on panel where thats stated.

Wanda was responsible for the Chaos Waves emergence because by warping Earth she tore a hole in the dimensional wall which set off the Chaos Wave. The Chaos Wave was the leakage of Wandas warp through that hole.


Say Storm created a weather pattern and then went to bed, if that weather pattern expanded beyond the area she used her power to create that weather effect within if that weather pattern then started expanding and acting differently to what Storm manipulated the elements to set it to do if Storm wasnt around to direct, control and feed power to this weather pattern, then all it did after her initial application of power are not feats of Storms.

Unless Storm had in other on panel appearances been shown to be able to directly and consciously manipulate the elements to do all that that weather pattern went on to do then all that weather pattern did can not be used to illustrate what i sdirectly achievable with Storms power.

Setting something in motion and letting that thing spiral out of control with no direction, or power feed does not make teh chaos wave and all it did an illustration of Wandas capabilities.

If i yodelled in the mountains and my noise created an avalanche that went on to destroy the surrounding countryside, then while i would be responsible for the resultant destruction, such destruction would not be a direct feat of mine or an illustration of what im physically capable of. I just set something in motion and forces greater than myself spiralled out of control as a result of my initial actions.

The Chaos Wave if allowed to run rampant could have destroyed Marvel creation. The crux of the matter is that it wasnt allowed to run rampant and was stopped by a band of mutants who between them couldnt conquer planet Earth.

If Storm was allowed to run rampant with noone stepping up to shut her down then she could destroy the whole surface of the planet

If Surfer was allowed to run rampant with noone stepping in his way then he could no doubt destroy the universes eventually.

ALL that matters is not what COULD have happened, but what did happen and that is that when the threat of the wave was discovered, how and who stopped it. Not Surfer, not Galactus, not the great powers of the universe, but EXCALIBUR.

Wanda had nothing to do with Genis and his power. Genis' out of control power was a result of him being resurrected through matter and energy from the Big Bang. As the Big Bang is all the matter and energy that will ever exist in reality, whenever Genis used his powers after Baron Zemo resurrected him with this matter, Genis disrupted matter and energy across the timeline.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29020020164.jpg

During HOM, Genis's powers were shown to be out of control. One user has speculated that this was because Wanda gave him extra power. The point has never ever been stated on panel. What has been stated on panel is that Genis' out of control power was the result of the matter Baron Zemo used to ressurrect him with. Genis was ressurrected before House of M. That had nothing to do with Wanda.

Wanda as far as we've been told on panel warped only 616 Earth. While this reality warp had a domino affect and caused ripples throughout dimensions, the direct application of her power brought about the House of M reality on Earth and nothing more.

Roma the omniversal guardian stated that the warp was GLOBAL in scale, She says theres a trans temporal tsunami and then goes on to say APPARENTLY there was an alteration:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018233635.jpg

apparently
A adverb
1 obviously, evidently, manifestly, patently, apparently, plainly

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/apparently

i.e theres a trans temporal tsunami, so quite clearly there has been an alteration thats breached the dimensional walls.


Roma said she couldnt ascertain the cause of the global alteration. She said nothing about not knowing what caused the wave. She says the wave was clearly caused by the alteration breaching the dimensional walls.

The Chaos Wave was nothing but Wandas reality warp seeping through the breach and reacting with the reality beyond, thats what caused it. That is why the future "Excalibur" were told to end the problem, the breach needed to be sealed or the affected reality (Earth 616) would have to be destroyed to stop the warped effects Wanda had put in place from seeping through.

Wandas application of power to 616 changed reality to her wishes. She bended the rules of reality to manifest a desired effect. Since when was Wandas reality warping within 616 shown as a reality collapsing wave of destruction?

Did the chaos wave go around to other realities converting them to Wandas HOM vision or was it something she started which unbeknownst to her spun out of control with no exertion, maintenance or even awareness from her?


A reality warp is an area of space/time where a reality manipulator has manipulated the laws of causality to bring about their wishes. When Wanda accidentally tore a hole in the dimensional wall of 616 this area of warped reality spilled through and reacted with the reality beyond, sparking off the chaos wave. Wandas reality warp spilling through and out of control without her knowledge and without her powering or maintaining it.

Wanda being invulnerable to Hawkeyes bow and arrow does NOT equate to her being immortal. She had created the House of M reality on Earth, she was within her reality warp wherein she determined the laws of reality. Wanda knew that the heroes were coming to kill her before she even created House of M so for all we know, she determined that within her reality warp she couldnt be harmed.

On top of that, the House of M reality was beyond Wandas power to maintain. She could not have achieved it without moral support from her brother and the use of Xaviers powers to help co-ordinate her own and ensure that her reality was convincing to everyone else within:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4916363083.jpg

Counting down for the reposts

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wanda being invulnerable to Hawkeyes bow and arrow does NOT equate to her being immortal. She had created the House of M reality on Earth, she was within her reality warp wherein she determined the laws of reality. Wanda knew that the heroes were coming to kill her before she even created House of M so for all we know, she determined that within her reality warp she couldnt be harmed.

On top of that, the House of M reality was beyond Wandas power to maintain. She could not have achieved it without moral support from her brother and the use of Xaviers powers to help co-ordinate her own and ensure that her reality was convincing to everyone else within:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4916363083.jpg

Phoenix wins

It is good to see G.S shed some light on this,Wanda needed xavier etc...
There really is no contest here i cant in my opinion even give her 1 win in a 10 fight scenario

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Counting down for the reposts

Actually, with the exception of this post, you won't even be replied to.

All the relevant forum members know the deal (with you that is)

The only concern I had was for true debaters to fall victim to the bull shit

time and experience has taught us all.


Have fun, but your style (I demean the feats of every character that stomps Phoenix)

is known through out now.


Well, you'l always have your One Sock admiring your fallacy.

(not because he thinks you're right, but actually just to disagree with what I say)

Who cares, meaningless posts count for nothing.


Makes me happy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, with the exception of this post, you won't even be replied to.

All the relevant forum members know the deal (with you that is)

The only concern I had was for true debaters to fall victim to the bull shit

time and experience has taught us all.


Have fun, but your style (I demean the feats of every character that stomps Phoenix)

is known through out now.


Well, you'l always have you One Sock admiring your fallacy.

Who cares, meaningless posts count for nothing.


Makes me happy.

You've been hovering on the forum for quite some time now and this is all you could come up with. Why?

Because you acknowledged you were ill-equipped to counter, therefore you resorted to this misguided garbage.

Your attempts to speak for the forum are laughable, when its only ever noobs and disgruntled victims of mine who subscribe to your BULLshit

I can step into any cosmic debate of yours and proceed to smash any and all of your offerings. The fact that all i receive as a response are invalid reposts or "witty" rebuttals speaks volumes.

Makes me happy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You've been hovering on the forum for quite some time now and this is all you could come up with. Why?

Because you acknowledged you were ill-equipped to counter, therefore you resorted to this misguided garbage.

Your attempts to speak for the forum are laughable, when its only ever noobs and disgruntled victims of mine who subscribe to your

I can step into any cosmic debate of yours and proceed to smash any and all of your offerings. The fact that all i receive as a response are invalid reposts or "witty" rebuttals speaks volumes.

Same ol gibberish, claiming your own victories. hysterical


There used to be pleasure in owning you,

not anymore.

This kind of waffle would have drawn me into a verbal war,

now,

who cares what some dellusional fanboy says.


If only you knew how many cats know about you.


Don't you see my peace?

You're a joke duke, don't blame me, you did it to yourself.


So reply with an insult and yes, you stomped, pawned ahh whatever.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Same ol gibberish, claiming your own victories.


There used to be pleasure in owning you,

not anymore.

This kind of waffle would have drawn me into a verbal war,

now,

who cares what some dellusional fanboy says.


If only you knew how many cats know about you.


Don't you see my peace?

You're a joke duke, don't blame me, you did it to yourself.


So reply with an insult and yes, you stomped, pawned ahh whatever.

Ohhh the irony.

So you proclaim your state of peace and your current choice to refrain from verbal war by launching a series of verball assaults.

Lay off the youre killing me lol

You no longer engage because you get stomped at every turn. Debating with you was ever a chore because debate is the last thing you do.

These forums are a place for you to spread your propaganda and nothing more. You present an opinion, someone counters, so you post your opinion again with bits in bold. An example of how not to debate if ever i did see one.

You're a joke and i can step in any time to illustrate this point in front of the masses. Knowing this you have repeatedly refrained from facing me in a one on one matchup thread stating a lack of time to be the reason only to be seen participating in multiple forum threads at the time.

All mouth, negligible substance jester

To think all of this garbage started because i had the audacity to disagree with you in a Beyonder debate.

Beyonders a mutant, get over it!!

yawn

Originally posted by Mr Master
yawn

Indeed