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Jean Grey (no phoenix) with shields up.

Wonder Woman.

Actually you can't have Jean without the Phoenix Force, they're one. So there's no such thing as Jean without her Phoenix Potential as she's always had her Phoenix Potential. However they're is such a
thing as Jean without her realised Phoenix Potential, so I guess you meant that.

And since Jean is starting off with her TK shields up, speed blitzing is not going to work.

Therefore Jean should be able to win this.(She could strip WW molecule by molecule or create TK shards that pierce Diana's skin.(Just like Bullets if she doesn't block them))

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually you can't have Jean without the Phoenix Force, they're one. So there's no such thing as Jean without her Phoenix Potential as she's always had her Phoenix Potential. However they're is such a
thing as Jean without her realised Phoenix Potential, so I guess you meant that.

And since Jean is starting off with her TK shields up, speed blitzing is not going to work.

Therefore Jean should be able to win this.(She could strip WW molecule by molecule or create TK shards that pierce Diana's skin.(Just like Bullets if she doesn't block them))

When Diana puts up her bracelets together, they form an impenetrable shield all around her body. Not even some gods have been able to break through it.

Originally posted by batdude123
When Diana puts up her bracelets together, they form an impenetrable shield all around her body. Not even some gods have been able to break through it.


Yeah cuz Gods operate on the same level as the Phoenix Jean Grey..............................no:P

Originally posted by batdude123
When Diana puts up her bracelets together, they form an impenetrable shield all around her body. Not even some gods have been able to break through it.

What so they both are going to be sitting there with their shields up? If that happens then it's going to be a stalemate.
Unless Jean is able to do a Sue Storm and create the TK Shards inside of Diana's head.
And well Phoenix potential is Phoenix potential, it's doubtful that her shields will last.

Originally posted by Soleran
Yeah cuz Gods operate on the same level as the Phoenix Jean Grey..............................no:P

This is Jean without the Phoenix force.

Originally posted by batdude123
This is Jean without the Phoenix force.

There's no such thing as Jean without the Phoenix Force. As the Phoenix Force is Jean Grey. It's a part of who she is, she was destined to manifest it. Removing the PF is like removing a part of her personality. Which is basically like saying Wonder Woman without her arms and legs.

You get:
1.) Jean pre-realised potential, but the potential is still there.
and
2.) Jean with her Realised potential.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
There's no such thing as Jean without the Phoenix Force. As the Phoenix Force is Jean Grey. It's a part of who she is, she was destined to weild it. Removing the PF is like removing a part of her character.

You get:
1.) Jean without her realised potential, but the potential is still there.
and
2.) Jean with her Realised potential.

It would be number one then.

Originally posted by batdude123
It would be number one then.

Yep, and that means she still has her Phoenix Potential amplyfying her powers every now and again.
And since her shield is up, and WW can be hurt by a very small highly pressured object, I'm going to say Jean.

BTW What happens if Jean forces Diana via TK to hold her hands apart so the shield doesn't work?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yep, and that means she still has her Phoenix Potential amplyfying her powers every now and again.
And since her shield is up, and WW can be hurt by a very small highly pressured object, I'm going to say Jean.

BTW What happens if Jean forces Diana via TK to hold her hands apart so the shield doesn't work?

It's not that easy, and besides I think Diana would be strong enough to hold her hands together anyway.

Originally posted by batdude123
It's not that easy, and besides I think Diana would be strong enough to hold her hands together anyway.


Wrong

Originally posted by batdude123
It's not that easy, and besides I think Diana would be strong enough to hold her hands together anyway.

But Phoenix Potential TK can augement Jean's strength to infinite levels.
Meaning Diana's hands are coming apart.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
But Phoenix Potential TK can augement Jean's strength to infinite levels.
Meaning Diana's hands are coming apart.

Right, but like I said it's not that easy.

However, Diana would rush in faster than Jean could even think and then hold up the Medusa Head and Jean would be done.

Originally posted by batdude123
Right, but like I said it's not that easy.

Why not? I mean we are talking about Phoenix Potential here.

Originally posted by batdude123
However, Diana would rush in faster than Jean could even think and then hold up the Medusa Head and Jean would be done.

They both start off with their shields up, Diana only has basic knowledge on Jean. How's she going to come up with that at the start of the fight? Plus by the time WW gets the head, she'll be caught in Jeans TK and rendered useless.(Or Ripped apart molecule by molecule)

Try to weasel Phoenix into a no Phoenix fight more please.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Why not? I mean we are talking about Phoenix Potential here.

No, I mean I don't think it's as simple as moving her hands apart. Then again, the thread master could mean the Jean that was previously not aware of her Phoenix potential.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Try to weasel Phoenix into a no Phoenix fight more please.

It's not that...I just don't want to upset GS. The Phoenix being Jean instead of a seperate Cosmic Entity has always been a touchy subject.

Originally posted by batdude123
No, I mean I don't think it's as simple as moving her hands apart. Then again, the thread master could mean the Jean that was previously not aware of her Phoenix potential.

Hmm...interesting point, but does she really have to be aware of her Phoenix Potential to use it?

, well that was before they retconned the whole Phoenix being a seperate entity. So it's kind of hard to judge... And well Jean was also very inexperienced skill wise in that fight...so if that's what the thread starter meant then this thread just turned into a spite thread.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It's not that...I just don't want to upset GS.
Well God forbid, right?

Originally posted by Validus
Well God forbid, right?

Yeah, heaven forbid...that topic is sacred...any misinterpretations and the sky might collapse.
On a lighter note the First Fallen/Foursaken shall rise out in Uncanny X-Men on the 21st of June.(I messed up the release date thought it was the 14th of June).

CAN'T WAIT FOR IT!

Isn't Diana immune to telepathy?

Phoenix Jean wins obviously.

If this is normal Jean Grey (go f*** yourselves Phoenix fanboys...) with no Phoenix Potential (again, go f*** yourselves. We can do whatever we want here...) than she loses.

Can't really argue with that...

Originally posted by Tron
Can't really argue with that...

What's with they eyes Tron you've been a little bitchy as of late.

Threadstarter: Green Lantern's ring is vulnerable to blue now. Superman can only fly at the speed of sound. Captain America is a vampire. Debate!

Forum members: Okay.





Threadstarter: Jean Grey doesn't have the Phoenix nor does she possess the Phoenix Potential.

Phoenix Fanboys: You can't do that! Jean IS Phoenix. You can't seperate the two! She's not Jean Grey without the Phoenix!

Originally posted by Draco69
Phoenix Jean wins obviously.

If this is normal Jean Grey (go f*** yourselves Phoenix fanboys...) with no Phoenix Potential (again, go f*** yourselves. We can do whatever we want here...) than she loses.

Nice , but me, fanboy of Jean , no way...Emma yes , Jean definitely not.(Can't stand the sacred cow)



To be fair, no one really knows what Jean without Phoenix Potential can do. So she'd basically lose this fight by default due to lack of feats.

And I would say it's more like:

Threadstarter: Wonder Women is not an Amazon, she is from the land of the Looney Toons, she was raised by Bugs Bunny and knows nothing about Greek Mythology. Could she beat a Crazed Jubilee born an Amazon, with a Magic Tiara, Lasso and braclets.

Originally posted by Draco69
Threadstarter: Green Lantern's ring is vulnerable to blue now. Superman can only fly at the speed of sound. Captain America is a vampire. Debate!

Forum members: Okay.





Threadstarter: Jean Grey doesn't have the Phoenix nor does she possess the Phoenix Potential.

Phoenix Fanboys: You can't do that! Jean IS Phoenix. You can't seperate the two! She's not Jean Grey without the Phoenix!



Do you know someone in one of the threads said WW got too many power upgrades and when she started she had none?

Originally posted by LethalFemme
What's with they eyes Tron you've been a little bitchy as of late.

Couldn't think of any other face to use.

Originally posted by Tron
Couldn't think of any other face to use.

heres one mhm

Ok, its the Jean Grey that fixed Emma's broken diamond body.

That's Phoenix.

Let's use THIS Jean:

Jean Grey is Jean Grey.


http://marvel1.scanz.tripod.com/image-marvel/marvel/Marvel1995Fleer_JeanGrey.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nice , but me, fanboy of Jean , no way...Emma yes , Jean definitely not.(Can't stand the sacred cow)



To be fair, no one really knows what Jean without Phoenix Potential can do. So she'd basically lose this fight by default due to lack of feats.

And I would say it's more like:

Threadstarter: Wonder Women is not an Amazon, she is from the land of the Looney Toons, she was raised by Bugs Bunny and knows nothing about Greek Mythology. Could she beat a Crazed Jubilee born an Amazon, with a Magic Tiara, Lasso and braclets.

I don't buy the "Jean was the White Crown Phoenix since 1963!" bit. It flies in the face of every X-Man story that ever was. Magneto shouldn't have been a threat to her, now should he have?

This is hell!

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't buy the "Jean was the White Crown Phoenix since 1963!" bit. It flies in the face of every X-Man story that ever was. Magneto shouldn't have been a threat to her, now should he have?
It's a retconn. Can't argue that.

At least the retcon should make SENSE. Jean Grey KNEW she was practically second to TOAA for the entire time she was alive but she didn't feel like using it...?

If this is X-Men Issue #1 Jean, she'll lose, I guess. She's a little girl who's just learning to use her powers.

Originally posted by Draco69
At least the retcon should make SENSE. Jean Grey KNEW she was practically second to TOAA for the entire time she was alive but she didn't feel like using it...?
Same way Wondie never uses the Godwave, I guess.

And that's SENCE*.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Same way Wondie never uses the Godwave, I guess.

And that's SENCE*.

She only uses it for desperate situations. And has.


Jean Grey on the other hand gave no sign that she was the White Crown Phoenix and never bothered to use it in a desperate battle. Like Onslaught.

Professor X: Jean! Your husband is dying! Be the Phoenix!

Jean Grey: Eh. I don't feel like it. Scott? Can I have your lounge chair if you die?

Originally posted by Draco69
She only uses it for desperate situations. And has.


Jean Grey on the other hand gave no sign that she was the White Crown Phoenix and never bothered to use it in a desperate battle. Like Onslaught.

Professor X: Jean! Your husband is dying! Be the Phoenix!

Jean Grey: Eh. I don't feel like it. Scott? Can I have your lounge chair if you die? true.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Same way Wondie never uses the Godwave, I guess.

And that's SENCE*.

Get over yourself, smart guy:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sense

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sence

The thread starter should simply say "pre-phoenix-potential retcon" Jean.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
The thread starter should simply say "pre-phoenix-potential retcon" Jean.



That's much better than "No Phoenix" since the fanboys can get around it so effectively.

Genius, you are!

Originally posted by Soljer
Get over yourself, smart guy:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sense

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sence Someone clearly can't sense facetiousness.

"smart guy"

Draco why are your minions attacking me?

I have minions? Coooooool.

Hmm. Keep attacking CC, lowly minions of mine. And fetch me some water. Seltzer if you please.

Gahh! You tyrant!

Originally posted by Draco69
I have minions? Coooooool.

Hmm. Keep attacking CC, lowly minions of mine. And fetch me some water. Seltzer if you please.



You're going to get Desani and you're going to like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And as for Cosmic Cube, f*ck off! jk

Anyway, I don't see why Wondie couldn't beat Jean when she was just lowly mutant scum.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're going to get Dasani and you're going to like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And as for Cosmic Cube, f*ck off! jk Thank you.

Anyway, Wonder Woman owns her ass.

Jean and Wondie are friends.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Jean and Wondie are friends.

that's interesting

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Jean and Wondie are friends.

Originally posted by batdude123
Anyway, Wonder Woman owns her ass. That's debatable.

I think it could go either way. Even without the force, Jean was one of the most powerful mutants ever.

Originally posted by LethalFemme
that's interesting No, it isn't.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
That's debatable.

I think it could go either way. Even without the force, Jean was one of the most powerful mutants ever.

No, she was one of the weakest. She was even below Jazz for cryin out loud.

If Jean can keep Wondie at bay, I believe she can win. If not, she will need the Phoenix to put her body back together.

Originally posted by batdude123
No, she was one of the weakest. She was even below Jazz for cryin out loud. Nu-uh. She was class 5 from the get-go.

Stop that!

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Nu-uh. She was class 5 from the get-go.

Stop that!

More like a class -5.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
No, it isn't.

You saw right through me I really meant it's pathetic.

Originally posted by LethalFemme
You saw right through me I really meant it's pathetic.

No, you didn't.

Originally posted by batdude123
More like a class -5. Grr!

Originally posted by LethalFemme
You saw right through me I really meant it's pathetic. Unbreak my heart.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Unbreak my heart.

*hits Cosmic Cube with a fish*

Originally posted by batdude123
*hits Cosmic Cube with a fish* I'm speechless.

What utter disrespect.

Originally posted by LethalFemme
You saw right through me I really meant it's pathetic. Do you really think so?

Give it to me straight from your heart.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Do you really think so?

Give it to me straight from your heart.

You're dumb. Oh, and Jean Grey is perhaps the weakest mutant to ever exist.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Unbreak my heart.

Say you love me again

Originally posted by LethalFemme
Say you love me again
Undo this hurt that you caused when you walked out the door and walked out of my life.

Originally posted by batdude123
You're dumb. Oh, and Jean Grey is perhaps the weakest mutant to ever exist. NO!

GUOOOH!

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Undo this hurt that you caused when you walked out the door and walked out of my life.

uncry these tears I've cried so many niiiinights

Originally posted by LethalFemme
uncry these tears I've cried so many niiiinights

Is idenity theft effecting you? Contact Citi.

Originally posted by batdude123
Is idenity theft effecting you? Contact Citi.

I hate that commercial

Originally posted by LethalFemme
I hate that commercial

Me too.

How the hell did it go from Wonder Woman vs. Jean Grey to commercials?

herbshock

Originally posted by Blair Wind
herbshock

bloogen

Originally posted by Blair Wind
bloogen

jockey

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't buy the "Jean was the White Crown Phoenix since 1963!" bit. It flies in the face of every X-Man story that ever was. Magneto shouldn't have been a threat to her, now should he have?

True it contradicts so much X history, I sometimes feel that they should retcon the retcon and make the Phoenix Force a seperate Entity.

Jean telekinetically ties WW with her own lasso and make her eyes explode.

Originally posted by batdude123
How the hell did it go from Wonder Woman vs. Jean Grey to commercials?

Cause you're weird

Originally posted by LethalFemme
Cause you're weird

Oh yeah? Well...... LOOK OVER THERE! *runs away crying like a girl*

It's all a matter of whether Wonder Woman can break Jean's shields. They haven't been broken yet, and have blocked everything from electricity to radiation. People don't usually punch on them, but Supes couldn't do it in the past.

Jean has also gotten through Magneto and Juggernaut's helmets (something I don't think even Xavier has done), so perhaps she can get through to WW as well. If Diana can't get past the shield, she's not going to hurt Jean. If she's punching, I doubt that her bracelets will be in contact long enough to protect her, which provides enough of an opening for Ms. Grey to do any number of things.

jean phucks with WWs head and convinces supes to rape WW

Originally posted by diabloman
jean phucks with WWs head and convinces supes to rape WW

dude dont you start going their

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
It's all a matter of whether Wonder Woman can break Jean's shields. They haven't been broken yet, and have blocked everything from electricity to radiation. People don't usually punch on them, but Supes couldn't do it in the past.

Jean has also gotten through Magneto and Juggernaut's helmets (something I don't think even Xavier has done), so perhaps she can get through to WW as well. If Diana can't get past the shield, she's not going to hurt Jean. If she's punching, I doubt that her bracelets will be in contact long enough to protect her, which provides enough of an opening for Ms. Grey to do any number of things.

Isn't WW immune to telepathy and doesn't using it on her give the user a backlash?

Magneto and Juggernaut are immune to TP as well with their helmets on, and Jean still got past them.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Magneto and Juggernaut are immune to TP as well with their helmets on, and Jean still got past them.

The difference being their helmets protect them and WW's is one of her gifts. It's not like it's the tiara.

Originally posted by LethalFemme
The difference being their helmets protect them and WW's is one of her gifts. It's not like it's the tiara. uh hello jean can control objects she can pull WWs helmet off

Originally posted by diabloman
uh hello jean can control objects she can pull WWs helmet off

You need to reread what I said. It's like her strength she just has it. It isn't her tiara.

It's something along the lines of her seeing with the eyes of Pallas and thus being immune to telepathy if I recall.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's something along the lines of her seeing with the eyes of Pallas and thus being immune to telepathy if I recall.

Why is it that you understand but, everyone else just seems to get a vague view?

Because Jean Grey has transcended the fourth wall to become an actual religion... so much so that even hypotheticals are greeted with "You can't do that Jean and the Phoenix are one thing even though it makes no sense whatsoever."

She can't be immune if MM communicates with her telepathically. She may have incredibly high resistance, but if someone can speak into her head, she's not immune.

Psylocke is immune.

whats kriptonian ? is that the word they use for mutants in the DC world ?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
She can't be immune if MM communicates with her telepathically. She may have incredibly high resistance, but if someone can speak into her head, she's not immune.

Psylocke is immune. She can see through all deception so it would make sense that telepathic communication, it's basically communication of thoughts, should be fine while being immune to mental illusions, mind control etc. Not sure about whether it extends psi-blasts, but one could say that they're essentially a basic form of mind control(?) making someone feel pain that isn't really there...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Because Jean Grey has transcended the fourth wall to become an actual religion... so much so that even hypotheticals are greeted with "You can't do that Jean and the Phoenix are one thing even though it makes no sense whatsoever."

And of course you being anti religions see through it?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
She can't be immune if MM communicates with her telepathically. She may have incredibly high resistance, but if someone can speak into her head, she's not immune.

Psylocke is immune.

It's just like how MM is immune to fire now yet it's still scares him every time he sees it.

Originally posted by LethalFemme
And of course you being anti religions see through it?Anti-organized religion... but that's for another forum... Actually more because I have (via the wonder of the internet) or had (stupid broken hard drive damn you to hell) most of her appearances and can easily entertain the hypothetical of "Jean at the start of GM's New X-Men" or "Jean when she was in X-Factor and only had telekinesis" rather than saying "Jean has always been Phoenix."

Err wait didn't Batman's contingency plan trap her in an illusion intending for her to fight till her heart epxloded.

Iunno is this before or after she lost her vision and had it restored?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Anti-organized religion... but that's for another forum... Actually more because I have (via the wonder of the internet) or had (stupid broken hard drive damn you to hell) most of her appearances and can easily entertain the hypothetical of "Jean at the start of GM's New X-Men" or "Jean when she was in X-Factor and only had telekinesis" rather than saying "Jean has always been Phoenix."

Please don't question Jean X they'll come after you and I don't think I can handle being alone without you.weep












































Unless you have any suggestions. Anyone you recommend?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Iunno is this before or after she lost her vision and had it restored?
before the vison loss during the Tower of Bable arc where Al Ghul stole Batman's contingency plans for the League

Originally posted by Warmonger
Err wait didn't Batman's contingency plan trap her in an illusion intending for her to fight till her heart epxloded.

That was something implanted in her ear.

Originally posted by Warmonger
before the vison loss during the Tower of Bable arc where Al Ghul stole Batman's contingency plans for the League Oh well the means of her immunity as I understand it is that the way in which her sight was restored was that she was granted the eyes of the goddess, Pallas-Athena (metaphorically?).

Femme I don't fully get your question.

Does immune to telepathy mean immune to psy blast? because WW probably can't block psy blast.

*Groan* the eyes of Atheana? See this is what Superman started with his powers arms race.

Also when MM went berserk didn't he use his powers on Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Oh well the means of her immunity as I understand it is that the way in which her sight was restored was that she was granted the eyes of the goddess, Pallas-Athena (metaphorically?).

Femme I don't fully get your question.

It the inevitable case you die or "turn up missing" anyone I can turn to for support?

Originally posted by Warmonger
Also when MM went berserk didn't he use his powers on Wonder Woman.

wasn't it just tk?

Originally posted by LethalFemme
It the inevitable case you die or "turn up missing" anyone I can turn to for support? Hmm... well BW does have a really really disproportionately enormous....



....head, but isn't exactly at the races in the downstairs department. I'd suggest you go with jinzin and do newjak on the side... and fake the big O for BW every now and then when he tries that twister thing...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm... well BW does have a really really disproportionately enormous....



....head, but isn't exactly at the races in the downstairs department. I'd suggest you go with jinzin and do newjak on the side... and fake the big O for BW every now and then when he tries that twister thing...

I've tried faking it in the past but, I've realized I can't. I mean I can I'm just terrific at it but, I'm just not that nice of a person.no

Originally posted by ixie
Does immune to telepathy mean immune to psy blast? because WW probably can't block psy blast.

That's what I was thinking, I always thought WW was Psylocke Immune, didn't know she just see's through illusions. If someone was to shut of her brain functions(If she has a brain, but she should since in Greek Mythology man was modelled after the Gods) what she going to do then?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
That's what I was thinking, I always thought WW was Psylocke Immune, didn't know she just see's through illusions. If someone was to shut of her brain functions(If she has a brain, but she should since in Greek Mythology man was modelled after the Gods) what she going to do then?

Wrong actually. She regularly faces two uber-telepaths who don't do dipshit to her in telepathy. Including psy-blasts. Doctor Psycho and Tri-Maid.

Wonder Woman was always (though every JLA comic forgets it....) immune to telepathy simply do to the fires of Hestia's Truth she holds in her mind.

In her own comic, Martian Manhunter has failed to read or attack Diana's mind simply because of this gift. As well as Hector Hammond and Doctor Psycho.

Diana got a upgrade with the Eyes of Pallas which boosts her telepathic immunity (people CAN read or speak with her telepathically as long as she allows it) AND gave her a semi-cosmic awareness depending on where she looks.

She sees with a god's eyes and understands with a god's wisdom. Which makes her immune to any and all forms of telepathy.

Also if she channels her Spirit of Truth while holding her lasso, she's even immune to the psychic manipulations of the gods, Neron and even the likes of Heaven itself.

Wonder Woman would win a speedblitz anyway.

Originally posted by Draco69
Wrong actually. She regularly faces two uber-telepaths who don't do dipshit to her in telepathy. Including psy-blasts. Doctor Psycho and Tri-Maid.

Wonder Woman was always (though every JLA comic forgets it....) immune to telepathy simply do to the fires of Hestia's Truth she holds in her mind.

In her own comic, Martian Manhunter has failed to read or attack Diana's mind simply because of this gift. As well as Hector Hammond and Doctor Psycho.

Diana got a upgrade with the Eyes of Pallas which boosts her telepathic immunity (people CAN read or speak with her telepathically as long as she allows it) AND gave her a semi-cosmic awareness depending on where she looks.

She sees with a god's eyes and understands with a god's wisdom. Which makes her immune to any and all forms of telepathy.

Also if she channels her Spirit of Truth while holding her lasso, she's even immune to the psychic manipulations of the gods, Neron and even the likes of Heaven itself.

Wonder Woman would win a speedblitz anyway.

Ok so the match up should <I>REALLY</I> be, Wonder Woman (With all the bells and whistles and power ups) versus Jean Grey with shields up (And she has the phoenix power, she just is just gonna ignore it). Sound good?

Sounds pretty stupid to me. I am sure that Wonder Woman will win this. But, why have her fight Jean Grey then, how about someone's grandmother, that is about the power level everyone seems to want to put Jean at for this firght.

Here is another idea, Superman as Clark Kent (He has his super powers, he is just gonna not use them, he is gonna CHOOSE to not be strong and durable and forget about his ability to fly and speed) versus Thor, Gladiator, Hulk, Doomsday, Thanos, Silver Surfer and The Living Tribunal in a 6 on 1.

Originally posted by Draco69
Wrong actually. She regularly faces two uber-telepaths who don't do dipshit to her in telepathy. Including psy-blasts. Doctor Psycho and Tri-Maid.

Wonder Woman was always (though every JLA comic forgets it....) immune to telepathy simply do to the fires of Hestia's Truth she holds in her mind.

In her own comic, Martian Manhunter has failed to read or attack Diana's mind simply because of this gift. As well as Hector Hammond and Doctor Psycho.

Diana got a upgrade with the Eyes of Pallas which boosts her telepathic immunity (people CAN read or speak with her telepathically as long as she allows it) AND gave her a semi-cosmic awareness depending on where she looks.

She sees with a god's eyes and understands with a god's wisdom. Which makes her immune to any and all forms of telepathy.

Also if she channels her Spirit of Truth while holding her lasso, she's even immune to the psychic manipulations of the gods, Neron and even the likes of Heaven itself.

Wonder Woman would win a speedblitz anyway.

Fair enough, Jean still has TK though, and since the thread starter said that Jean starts off with her shields up...it's doubtful anyone is getting through considering Supes had a problem in the Marvel/DC crossover. But as we all know it's not cannon so I guess that doesn't count. Well unless this version of Jean Grey is the inexperienced version, Jean Grey will take it.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Fair enough, Jean still has TK though, and since the thread starter said that Jean starts off with her shields up...it's doubtful anyone is getting through considering Supes had a problem in the Marvel/DC crossover. But as we all know it's not cannon so I guess that doesn't count. Well unless this version of Jean Grey is the inexperienced version, Jean Grey will take it.

I disagree that her shields simply won't be overcome due to extreme stress or outright shattered.

Wonder Woman once managed to tow 1/3 of the Earth's mass against the Sun's gravity AND Genyome's magic. That's several billion, million quintillion tons. Literally. Perhaps a slight exaggeration but you get the point

Now let's apply simple physics. Diana is capable to lift and press the weight above making her unbelievably strong. Her greatest speed feat was being able reach the SpeedForce to prevent Jesse Quick from killing a villain which requires at least lightspeed.

Now IMAGINE a person with Diana's strength level hitting Jean's shields at near-lightspeed. Imagine the amount of force she would be hitting Jean's shields with. Every blow would be like Hiroshima squared, timed by 1000 and squared again.

I have faith in Jean to deflect a normal blow from Diana. But a blow coming THAT fast and THAT hard? Nuh-uh. That shield's coming down and Jean will explode like a melon when Diana directly hits her.

Northstar had NORMAL human strength and only hit people at Mach 3. Can you imagine Diana.

Also, Jean will have a very hard time tracking Diana due to her massive speed difference and reaction time difference. Diana will be ahead of Jean by several hundred steps.

Also the lasso has the ability to dispel all shields if wrapped around it or used as a whip.

Originally posted by Draco69
I disagree that her shields simply won't be overcome due to extreme stress or outright shattered.

Wonder Woman once managed to tow 1/3 of the Earth's mass against the Sun's gravity AND Genyome's magic. That's several billion, million quintillion tons. Literally. Perhaps a slight exaggeration but you get the point

Now let's apply simple physics. Diana is capable to lift and press the weight above making her unbelievably strong. Her greatest speed feat was being able reach the SpeedForce to prevent Jesse Quick from killing a villain which requires at least lightspeed.

Now IMAGINE a person with Diana's strength level hitting Jean's shields at near-lightspeed. Imagine the amount of force she would be hitting Jean's shields with. Every blow would be like Hiroshima squared, timed by 1000 and squared again.

I have faith in Jean to deflect a normal blow from Diana. But a blow coming THAT fast and THAT hard? Nuh-uh. That shield's coming down and Jean will explode like a melon when Diana directly hits her.

Northstar had NORMAL human strength and only hit people at Mach 3. Can you imagine Diana.

Also, Jean will have a very hard time tracking Diana due to her massive speed difference and reaction time difference. Diana will be ahead of Jean by several hundred steps.

Also the lasso has the ability to dispel all shields if wrapped around it or used as a whip.

So Diana is going to have to leave the Earths Atmosphere to gain enough momentum, so she can blitz Jean. And even then it's probably that Omega Level TK Shields will hold as her shields have never been shattered before. What's stopping Jean from holding her still with her TK and tying her up with her own lasso?(She could extend her TK into field range rather then individual objects) Or ripping Diana molecule by molecule. Remember she doesn't need to keep track of WW, she could dismember all matter around a certain radius of herself. If WW enters that field she's demolecularised.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
So Diana is going to have to leave the Earths Atmosphere to gain enough momentum, so she can blitz Jean. And even then it's probably that Omega Level TK Shields will hold as her shields have never been shattered before. What's stopping Jean from holding her still with her TK and tying her up with her own lasso?(She could extend her TK into field range rather then individual objects) Or ripping Diana molecule by molecule. Remember she doesn't need to keep track of WW, she could dismember all matter around a certain radius of herself. If WW enters that field she's demolecularised.

Diana doesn't need to leave the Earth's atmosphere to gain momentum. She just has to go between the space between A to B. Which Jean's face. Which will explode.

Diana's speed is magical. She can go as fast as she wants instantly. (Wonder Woman #69)

Who has she held her shields held against that's worthy of mention? Like the Hulk or Silver Surfer. I know her shields are strong. But I doubt they could sustain thousands of near-lightspeed blows from a woman who can literally tote the moon....

And as stated before the lasso (which only Diana command if she sees it fit; even Hecate tried to magically command the lasso with magical TK but failed to do so because Diana made it not to) can dispel any shield. Even the shields of a god or the Imperiux probes.

What's stopping from Jean holding Diana still? Speed and strength. Diana is too fast for Jean to capture her.
"Oops. She was there just a second ago."

As for a wide area effect, Diana has the Eyes of Pallas which acts as a semi-cosmic awareness. The moment Jean goes read, Diana will instantly know what's she's going to do and high tail it out of there.

Also factor in, Diana's sheer arsenal such as the Invisible Plane that would heal Diana when needed and supply her with any weapons she needs. Another is the Head of Medousa which if whipped out will instantly turn Jean to stone.

If WW high tailed does that mean Jean wins by forfeit?
Can the head turn Jean to stone even if Jean isnt looking at it? Jean can fight with eyes closed because of her telekinetic sensitivity.
What about a rain of telekinetic shards.

Originally posted by Draco69
Diana doesn't need to leave the Earth's atmosphere to gain momentum. She just has to go between the space between A to B. Which Jean's face. Which will explode.

Diana's speed is magical. She can go as fast as she wants instantly. (Wonder Woman #69)

Who has she held her shields held against that's worthy of mention? Like the Hulk or Silver Surfer. I know her shields are strong. But I doubt they could sustain thousands of near-lightspeed blows from a woman who can literally tote the moon....

And as stated before the lasso (which only Diana command if she sees it fit; even Hecate tried to magically command the lasso with magical TK but failed to do so because Diana made it not to) can dispel any shield. Even the shields of a god or the Imperiux probes.

What's stopping from Jean holding Diana still? Speed and strength. Diana is too fast for Jean to capture her.
"Oops. She was there just a second ago."

As for a wide area effect, Diana has the Eyes of Pallas which acts as a semi-cosmic awareness. The moment Jean goes read, Diana will instantly know what's she's going to do and high tail it out of there.

Also factor in, Diana's sheer arsenal such as the Invisible Plane that would heal Diana when needed and supply her with any weapons she needs. Another is the Head of Medousa which if whipped out will instantly turn Jean to stone.

So you're saying that WW can gain enough momentum to travel at light speed almost instantly? Omega Level TK is Omega Level TK, it hasn't been shattered before therefore it is doubtful that it'd ever be shattered. It's like Diana having her lasso snapped in two.

Jeans TK Shield may be considered a shield to us, but technically it isn't a shield. Two, it isn't magical either. The lasso dispelling TK ain't going to happen.

If WW High tails it out of there it of there then she's giving Jean even more time to extend her radius even further. And well there's nothing Diana can do to retaliate.

If we're going to bring Diana's semi-cosmic awareness into this then you might as well grant Jean her cosmic awareness from her Phoenix Potential. She could use that to know what Diana's next move is.

In Uncanny X-Men before Jean realised a fraction of her Phoenix Potential, when she fixed a Neutron Galaxy, the M'Kraan Crystal was going berzerk and Cyclops fired a blast at Jean. Jean's Body became intagible to avoid the blast. If WW does happen to get past her TK shield then her Phoenix Potential will save her instantly.

No Phoenix. It's not that hard a concept.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No Phoenix. It's not that hard a concept.

And her Phoenix Potential ie Omega Potential?
As I've said before Jean has no feats without her Phoenix Potential meaning she'll lose by default if that occured.

You already crippled her powers by removing the Phoenix, now you want to remove her Phoenix Potential(Omega Potential)?

It's called a hypothetical. E.g. Emma Frost doesn't have her diamond form. Or Superman can't use his superspeed. Feats of Emma's telepathy or Superman's strength, heat vision etc respectively aren't made null. There are multiple appearances where Jean Grey is just Jean Grey a powerful telekinetic and telepath.

Saying that she is automatically saved because she'll become Phoenix if she needs to is a ridiculous cop-out in a thread that says "No Phoenix."

Besides even in appearances where she was Phoenix she's been "Jggg"ed.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's called a hypothetical. E.g. Emma Frost doesn't have her diamond form. Or Superman can't use his superspeed. Feats of Emma's telepathy or Superman's strength, heat vision etc respectively aren't made null. There are multiple appearances where Jean Grey is just Jean Grey a powerful telekinetic and telepath.

Saying that she is automatically saved because she'll become Phoenix if she needs to is a ridiculous cop-out in a thread that says "No Phoenix."

Besides even in appearances where she was Phoenix she's been "Jggg"ed.

It's not saying that she'll be saved because she'll become the Phoenix. It's saying that she'll be saved due to her Omega Potential, which allow her to use her powers in such a way.(Phoenix Potential)
Suppressing powers is one thing, but suppressing the limits of a persons power? (As her TK does not work on a molecular level without her Omega Potential.)
If you want to remove her Omega Potential aswell, you might as well have Hellion Fight Diana. Meaning this thread has become a one sided spite thread.
Also in all those appearances where Jean was just Jean she still had her Phoenix Potenital.(Omega Potential)

Nah for a one-sided spite/joke thread see Plastic Man vs Jean Grey, no telekinesis .

If a thread is just Iceman vs ....... where he doesn't have his Omega Potential, all his feats where he as written without powers augmented to such levels are still valid... despite the fact that he had the potential to do things he couldn't do at the time.

I think whoever made this intended exactly what this as a serious thread. And seriously... I can't really think of anyone really Moon-towing, lightspeedingly notable off the top of my head that Jean's shields have held up against.

I really can't comprehend why it's so difficult (for this character in particular) for people to step outside the box for a moment and conceptually separate appearances where she was written as having the Phoenix Force augmenting her abilities e.g. Endsong and those where she wasn't e.g. X-Factor.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Nah for a one-sided spite/joke thread see Plastic Man vs Jean Grey, no telekinesis .

If a thread is just Iceman vs ....... where he doesn't have his Omega Potential, all his feats where he as written without powers augmented to such levels are still valid... despite the fact that he had the potential to do things he couldn't do at the time.

I think whoever made this intended exactly what this as a serious thread. And seriously... I can't really think of anyone really Moon-towing, lightspeedingly notable off the top of my head that Jean's shields have held up against.

I really can't comprehend why it's so difficult (for this character in particular) for people to step outside the box for a moment and conceptually separate appearances where she was written as having the Phoenix Force augmenting her abilities e.g. Endsong and those where she wasn't e.g. X-Factor.

I suppose...I was thinking more along the lines of New X-Men Jean though she still had her Omeganess in X-Factor as well...
So will the feat where Jean bypassed Juggernauts Magical Enchantments with her Telepathy count? Meaning there's a high probability of Jean bypassing Diana's Mental Defences.

BTW Nice Plasticman thread.

Iunno ... frankly I think she'd get speedblitzed since I can't think of anyone notable her shields have held up against right now.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Iunno ... frankly I think she'd get speedblitzed since I can't think of anyone notable her shields have held up against right now.

What about Superman in that non cannon crossover?(That's the closest they've ever come to fighting each other)
There's Gladiator but I think she was the Phoenix when she fought him. Think it was because her Omega Potential allowed her to augement her TK to whatever strength level she pleased.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
What about Superman in that non cannon crossover? I think you answered your own question...

Wolverine does not beat Lobo, Storm gets her ass handed to her if she picks a fight with WW and Wolverine's bone claws would do nothing to Thanos except shatter against him...Originally posted by ExodusCloak
There's Gladiator but I think she was the Phoenix when she fought him. However her Omega Potential did allow her to augement her TK to whatever strength level she pleased. Is this in retro Uncanny where she was written as the Phoenix augmenting her abilities... Again... somewhat rhetorical question...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I think you answered your own question...

Wolverine does not beat Lobo, Storm gets her ass handed to her if she picks a fight with WW and Wolverine's bone claws would do nothing to Thanos except shatter against him...Is this in retro Uncanny where she was written as the Phoenix augmenting her abilities... Again... somewhat rhetorical question...

So we're in agreement Diana wins.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I think you answered your own question...

Wolverine does not beat Lobo, Storm gets her ass handed to her if she picks a fight with WW and Wolverine's bone claws would do nothing to Thanos except shatter against him...Is this in retro Uncanny where she was written as the Phoenix augmenting her abilities... Again... somewhat rhetorical question...

There's also Juggernaut, where she locked the him in a band of TK, which stopped him for a while. That could buy her enough time to by pass Diana's magical defences.

Juggernaut doesn't move at Wonder Woman speeds. If you throw a ball at her she can catch it telekinetically. If you throw a ball at her at ~light speed she gets knocked the f*ck out.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Juggernaut doesn't move at Wonder Woman speeds. If you throw a ball at her she can catch it telekinetically. If you throw a ball at her at ~light speed she gets knocked the f*ck out.

That's true however she her TK shield is already up for this match. And if she increases the density of the particles around her, WW will have an even harder time getting through. Or she could just make a Magneto shield that repels all physical attacks due to it being charged.
Yeah but Juggernaut shield is meant to be unstoppable. His strength is off the charts, stopping his shield should be like getting speed blitzed by a Class 100 speedster.

I meant catching a speedster with telekinesis is gonna be hella hard let alone holding one who can tow a third of the moon. After the wild Sentinel attack it takes Jeany a while to move the rubble off of Emms.

I'd give it to Wondy if she can't use Pheonix.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I meant catching a speedster with telekinesis is gonna be hella hard let alone holding one who can tow a third of the moon. After the wild Sentinel attack it takes Jeany a while to move the rubble off of Emms.

Well Jean's power's tend to fluctuate throughout the years, if we're taking her at her best then her radial tk forcefield should be able to hold Diana. The only problem with that is Diana will have to enter the radius to get caught.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Juggernaut doesn't move at Wonder Woman speeds. If you throw a ball at her she can catch it telekinetically. If you throw a ball at her at ~light speed she gets knocked the f*ck out.

Me love Xmarksthespot. Such a better debater than me....

If Diana stays out of Jean's field it's a tie. If she enters it, WW loses.

Originally posted by ixie
If Diana stays out of Jean's field it's a tie. If she enters it, WW loses. What part of knocked the f*ck out don't you get?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
What part of knocked the f*ck out don't you get?

The part that ignores the fact that Jean can push past the pain and exhaustion. Even after not sleeping for three days she was still able to contain a building exploding. If she felt pain she could take care of that with her TP.

Besides, if WW decides to speedblitz, all Jean needs to do is strike out with her TK. If WW is moving as fast as you say she will, Jean will eventually make contact. Whether she decides to punch her or grab her or whatever at that point is up to her, but she's going to make contact. She can also encase a certain area in a TK field so that WW can't get out and can't get a running startn to achieve these near light speed levels.

BTW, the TPs that WW regularly encounters...Are they speedsters?

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
The part that ignores the fact that Jean can push past the pain and exhaustion. Even after not sleeping for three days she was still able to contain a building exploding. If she felt pain she could take care of that with her TP.Building explosion vs multiple cl100, ~lightspeed punches. She'll negate the pain of using her powers by using her powers some more?
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Besides, if WW decides to speedblitz, all Jean needs to do is strike out with her TK. If WW is moving as fast as you say she will, Jean will eventually make contact.Jean wins by a single random luck strike with her TK... against WW who was punched from the Sun to the Earth...
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Whether she decides to punch her or grab her or whatever at that point is up to her, but she's going to make contact.Because...? She just does?
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
She can also encase a certain area in a TK field so that WW can't get out and can't get a running startn to achieve these near light speed levels.

BTW, the TPs that WW regularly encounters...Are they speedsters? I don't know ask Draco. But really I don't see the relevance considering Jean isn't a speedster.