Short subject discussion thread

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Regret
I'll start this and we'll see what happens.

This thread is for short subject discussions. Questions and topics that the author does not believe are worth an entire thread. Questions can include very basic questions that often only require one post to answer. Any post can be drawn into a larger discussion by the population at large, but should be off of topics that have threads in existence for them. If you wish to have a drawn out discussion on a topic then it should not be placed here, that is why the forum exists, to provide a place for drawn out discussion.

The question I'll use to start this is for debbiejo.

What are your beliefs exactly? You seem at times to be Wiccan. I have also seen you post as though you are some form of Christian. I have also seen you post as an atheist would, or as an agnostic. What is your religion of choice?

Regret
Feel free to jump in with other questions as they come.

Shakyamunison
This will just get closed. sad

Regret
Not if the discussion maintains on religious topics.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
Not if the discussion maintains on religious topics.

Ok, Do you believe that God is separate from the universe and why?

Regret
Yes, in the manner that we are seperate, but I do not think I am answering the question you are asking.

I think I am not understanding your question entirely. Could you define what outside the universe means?

Eis
I have a question, you claimed polygamy was only practiced by a small percentage of the LDS community when it was condoned. I do not believe that to be true, do you have any unbiased proof to back up your claim?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, in the manner that we are separate, but I do not think I am answering the question you are asking.

I think I am not understanding your question entirely. Could you define what outside the universe means?

Good question, for that is at the heart of my question. When I say the universe, I mean everything, literally.

I have heard all my life that if you are not saved, then you are separated from God. If the universe is everything, and I'm part of that universe, then how can I be separate from God? If there is a separate part to the universe, then it should be included as part of everything, how can I be separate from that?

Regulus A Black
Do you have any proof to say that it is not true?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regulus A Black
Do you have any proof to say that it is not true?

To say what is not true? confused

You cannot prove a negative.

Regulus A Black
that was meant for Eis

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regulus A Black
that was meant for Eis

Sorry. smile

I recommend that you use quotes, it will be less confusing. wink

Regulus A Black
well when i went to post, it was going to be the post right above me, but you posted at the same time

Regret
Originally posted by Eis
I have a question, you claimed polygamy was only practiced by a small percentage of the LDS community when it was condoned. I do not believe that to be true, do you have any unbiased proof to back up your claim?

Unbiased...numbers are never biased.

I went to an anti-Mormon website for the information I found. If there is exaggeration I would assume it is exaggerated to a higher number than was fact given the intent of the site. I will not post the site because I do not wish to propagate the messages told there. If you desire to I am sure you can find similar numbers yourself.

How many Mormons were involved in polygamy?

Larry Logue's study indicated that in the 19th century, about 33% of Mormon households were polygamist.

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good question, for that is at the heart of my question. When I say the universe, I mean everything, literally.

I have heard all my life that if you are not saved, then you are separated from God. If the universe is everything, and I'm part of that universe, then how can I be separate from God? If there is a separate part to the universe, then it should be included as part of everything, how can I be separate from that?

OK, here is my answer. Universe will be defined as you have described.

God is not separate from the universe. He is only separate from it in the sense that we are separate from it. God is not the universe. I am separated from you at the moment. As a Mormon, we believe this separation is in reference to location.

God gives off energy in the same way that everything living gives off some form of energy. To be separated from God is the amount of diffusion that occurs between yourself and Gods energy. I believe that their reference is to a total separation, we believe that there are minimal numbers of individuals that will achieve this state of separation.

Eis
Originally posted by Regret
Unbiased...numbers are never biased.

I went to an anti-Mormon website for the information I found. If there is exaggeration I would assume it is exaggerated to a higher number than was fact given the intent of the site. I will not post the site because I do not wish to propagate the messages told there. If you desire to I am sure you can find similar numbers yourself.

How many Mormons were involved in polygamy?

Larry Logue's study indicated that in the 19th century, about 33% of Mormon households were polygamist.
I am sure it was you who made the claim. You are the one who is supposed to back them up.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
OK, here is my answer. Universe will be defined as you have described.

God is not separate from the universe. He is only separate from it in the sense that we are separate from it. God is not the universe. I am separated from you at the moment. As a Mormon, we believe this separation is in reference to location.

God gives off energy in the same way that everything living gives off some form of energy. To be separated from God is the amount of diffusion that occurs between yourself and Gods energy. I believe that their reference is to a total separation, we believe that there are minimal numbers of individuals that will achieve this state of separation.

Now I see the conflict of beliefs. I am you and are me, we are not separate. We are separated by space, and we are different people, but my energy is connected with all other energy. Like cities on a highway they are separate by location but cars move from city to city.

IMO the reason I am alive is because of this connection, and this connection is God. So if I were to be disconnected, I would've never existed.

Regret
Originally posted by Eis
I am sure it was you who made the claim. You are the one who is supposed to back them up.

Are you asking for the site? I did make the claim, that is the posting on the site I came across. Here is a link to the page that it is found on, and it is an anti-Mormon site.

http://www.i4m.com/think/hbo-big-love-polygamy.htm

I must state that I disagree with the majority of things posted on the site. I have relatives that have left the Mormon church to join a polygamous offshoot cult. Here is a statement made on the same page:

Did polygamist marriages produce more children than monogamous marriages?

No, plural marriages produced fewer children than monogamous marriages. "Plural marriage, including monogamous remarriage, actually slightly suppressed the total number of children born." (The Mormon People: Their Character and Traditions 1980)

My aunt's husband has taken 5 more wives. He makes a decent amount of money. He has 60+ children currently. I am sorry, but that is an increased number compared to a monogamous marriage, even if separated into groups compared per wife. This statement shows a bias towards negative representation of Mormon polygamy.

A more significant number as to the number of Mormons that practiced polygamy would be a stronger statement against Mormon doctrine in this case.

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Now I see the conflict of beliefs. I am you and are me, we are not separate. We are separated by space, and we are different people, but my energy is connected with all other energy. Like cities on a highway they are separate by location but cars move from city to city.

IMO the reason I am alive is because of this connection, and this connection is God. So if I were to be disconnected, I would've never existed.

Yes, the conflict, between you and I, is in the nature of God. I believe he is a physical entity, as such he exists in the Universe, not outside it or as it.

Eis
Originally posted by Regret
Are you asking for the site? I did make the claim, that is the posting on the site I came across. Here is a link to the page that it is found on, and it is an anti-Mormon site.

http://www.i4m.com/think/hbo-big-love-polygamy.htm

I must state that I disagree with the majority of things posted on the site. I have relatives that have left the Mormon church to join a polygamous offshoot cult. Here is a statement made on the same page:

Did polygamist marriages produce more children than monogamous marriages?

No, plural marriages produced fewer children than monogamous marriages. "Plural marriage, including monogamous remarriage, actually slightly suppressed the total number of children born." (The Mormon People: Their Character and Traditions 1980)

My aunt's husband has taken 5 more wives. He makes a decent amount of money. He has 60+ children currently. I am sorry, but that is an increased number compared to a monogamous marriage, even if separated into groups compared per wife. This statement shows a bias towards negative representation of Mormon polygamy.

A more significant number as to the number of Mormons that practiced polygamy would be a stronger statement against Mormon doctrine in this case.
33% hmm... I admit, that's a smaller number than I thought but in all honesty it's not a "small" number.

But I hate it that people still relate mormonism to polygamy. Yet no one asks a christian "Hey burned any witches lately?"

Regret
Originally posted by Eis
33% hmm... I admit, that's a smaller number than I thought but in all honesty it's not a "small" number.

But I hate it that people still relate mormonism to polygamy. Yet no one asks a christian "Hey burned any witches lately?"

laughing I know they do. It just happens in the places that I don't live in. wink

I think that 33% is still small in comparison to the belief that most people have as to the number of Mormons that did practice.

Eis
Originally posted by Regret
laughing I know they do. It just happens in the places that I don't live in. wink

I think that 33% is still small in comparison to the belief that most people have as to the number of Mormons that did practice.
Yeah you're definitely right, I was thinking it was somewhere along the lines of... 60% haha.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, the conflict, between you and I, is in the nature of God. I believe he is a physical entity, as such he exists in the Universe, not outside it or as it.

Then this god, you speak of, is limited. sad

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then this god, you speak of, is limited. sad

No, he is not limited in the sense I think you are referring to. God can do anything. Being God is a limited thing in my view. A God, in my opinion, is limited by what a God is. God is good. This limits what actions are available, because to be God God must be good. How is good defined? By what I believe God has said is good. Was he limited prior to Himself stating these things? I don't know. We believe that God abides by the same laws he makes for man. Thus he has limited himself in many ways.

Your God sounds like it is limited as well. Can your God separate itself from a being, and have that being remain full of life? Can your God be separate from the universe to observe its interaction without contact with the beings within it? From what you have said it seems that the God you believe in is limited in ways other than the ones my God may seem to be.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
No, he is not limited in the sense I think you are referring to. God can do anything. Being God is a limited thing in my view. A God, in my opinion, is limited by what a God is. God is good. This limits what actions are available, because to be God God must be good. How is good defined? By what I believe God has said is good. Was he limited prior to Himself stating these things? I don't know. We believe that God abides by the same laws he makes for man. Thus he has limited himself in many ways.

Your God sounds like it is limited as well. Can your God separate itself from a being, and have that being remain full of life? Can your God be separate from the universe to observe its interaction without contact with the beings within it? From what you have said it seems that the God you believe in is limited in ways other than the ones my God may seem to be.

My God? I don't have a God. I don't worship a God. I don't worship.

I believe in the mystic law, I only use the term God because I'm talking to Christians who do not understand the mystic law. Your god would be connected to the mystic law just like all things in the universe. I use the analogy of the universe as God to help explain the mystic law and how we are connected.

The mystic law? You are alive, we don't have to understand it. Do you have to understand gravity to stay on the Earth?

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My God? I don't have a God. I don't worship a God. I don't worship.

I believe in the mystic law, I only use the term God because I'm talking to Christians who do not understand the mystic law. Your god would be connected to the mystic law just like all things in the universe. I use the analogy of the universe as God to help explain the mystic law and how we are connected.

The mystic law? You are alive, we don't have to understand it. Do you have to understand gravity to stay on the Earth?

Sorry, when you referred to God in the statement "If the universe is everything, and I'm part of that universe, then how can I be separate from God?" I thought that you may have your own view of what God is separate from the typical Buddhist stance.

My view on God probably isn't the same as the mainstream Christian's view, they would probably answer differently wink

Cyric Blackstar
To me God is very ambiguous and undefined in the traditional sense. I have an almost agnostic kind of viewpoint on God (I do believe he exists). I believe he exists in a different realm or dimension if you will, that science alone cannot study or understand. If he created the Universe (be it done by evolution or him snapping his fingers) that to me he must have exist outside of the Universe, since by logic I would assume he existed before the Universe came into being.

That's just my teenage opinion. I'm no bible scholar and nor do I claim to understand the depths of what God is ect ect...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Regret
My beliefs have matter, or at least something, as always existing. This falls in line with the scientific conservation of energy principle. Formed or shaped are the terms we use, believing that the word create is an improper choice (due to people's interpretation of the term) when translated. Given that everything existed, just not formed or shaped, God did not exist in a vacuum where he was the extent of existence.

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ok, Do you believe that God is separate from the universe and why?

No, he holds it all together Shaky...

"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things."

Acts 17:24-25

My answer with scripture again showes that He is intimately involved and is not separate from His creation.

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Regret
My beliefs have matter, or at least something, as always existing. This falls in line with the scientific conservation of energy principle. Formed or shaped are the terms we use, believing that the word create is an improper choice (due to people's interpretation of the term) when translated. Given that everything existed, just not formed or shaped, God did not exist in a vacuum where he was the extent of existence.

Do you ever answer with the Word Of God? I am just curious as you being a Mormon as to what you hold too as your source of information & authority?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Regret
I'll start this and we'll see what happens.

This thread is for short subject discussions. Questions and topics that the author does not believe are worth an entire thread. Questions can include very basic questions that often only require one post to answer. Any post can be drawn into a larger discussion by the population at large, but should be off of topics that have threads in existence for them. If you wish to have a drawn out discussion on a topic then it should not be placed here, that is why the forum exists, to provide a place for drawn out discussion.

The question I'll use to start this is for debbiejo.

What are your beliefs exactly? You seem at times to be Wiccan. I have also seen you post as though you are some form of Christian. I have also seen you post as an atheist would, or as an agnostic. What is your religion of choice? Why do people always want to know anyway........... confused

There is not really a name for what I believe......though what I believe does go with science like string theory and some quantum studies which also does tie into some metephysics so in saying that, I believe that there is something much bigger that we can access.........I do believe there is something and that we can communicate with it.........It does not condemn but is always creating and we are part of that and can also create.....

In short Photons!!!..........I worship them...

Ohhhhhhhh our fun thread got closed............I told you not to temp it!!..........See! See!......It hates laughter

Regret
Originally posted by debbiejo
Why do people always want to know anyway........... confused

I wanted to know because you seem to come out of left field often. I hate being surprised, and you are often surprising.

Thanks for answering.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
My answer with scripture again showes that He is intimately involved and is not separate from His creation. And we are part of what IT is.......... cool

Regret
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Do you ever answer with the Word Of God? I am just curious as you being a Mormon as to what you hold too as your source of information & authority?

The Holy Spirit is my guide wink

When answering a question posed as to speculation about religious concepts I will state my opinion. Also, when answering a question posed by someone that does not believe in the Bible I will merely state my interpretation. Shaky knows that that is what I have stated.

Christ is the Word of God, did you not say, I believe that the Bible states this yes? You also stated that Christ is truth. Both in other threads. If what I say is truth then what I say is Christ, and if it is Christ it is the Word of God. I don't need to quote directly from the Bible, it is not Christ, it is written statements by men recording what they experienced and were told by God. As far as it is correct, it is the Word of God, but we already have instances where it may be interpreted in differing manners, we already have examples of error within it. If it is not entirely accurate, it is not entirely truthful, thus it is not entirely Christ, unless Christ is not entirely truthful. Quoting the Bible blindly as you do is impertinent. If your interpretation is not entirely accurate, it is not entirely in line with truth, and so you may be misstating what you claim to be the Word of God, which Word is Christ.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
Sorry, when you referred to God in the statement "If the universe is everything, and I'm part of that universe, then how can I be separate from God?" I thought that you may have your own view of what God is separate from the typical Buddhist stance.

My view on God probably isn't the same as the mainstream Christian's view, they would probably answer differently wink

That is a problem I run into when trying to communicate with non-Buddhist. big grin I am glad we had this talk. wink

Originally posted by Justbyfaith
No, he holds it all together Shaky...

"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things."

Acts 17:24-25

My answer with scripture again showes that He is intimately involved and is not separate from His creation.

There is hope for you after all. laughing

Alliance
Originally posted by CNN
SELMER, Tennessee (CNN) -- For three months, the 4,500 souls of this God-fearing town have been left to wonder if a demure preacher's wife shot her husband in the back and ran off to the beach with their three girls.

And if she did it, why?

Mary Carol Winkler, 32, pleaded not guilty to killing the charismatic new preacher of the Fourth Street Church of Christ and the congregation has turned the other cheek.

But the residents of Selmer haven't come close to understanding why it might have happened.

"What would cause a godly woman to do such a thing?" asked neighbor Sharon Everitt, echoing the question that has hung over the rural town since late March. SELMER, Tennessee (CNN) -- For three months, the 4,500 souls of this God-fearing town have been left to wonder if a demure preacher's wife shot her husband in the back and ran off to the beach with their three girls.

And if she did it, why?

Mary Carol Winkler, 32, pleaded not guilty to killing the charismatic new preacher of the Fourth Street Church of Christ and the congregation has turned the other cheek.

But the residents of Selmer haven't come close to understanding why it might have happened.

"What would cause a godly woman to do such a thing?" asked neighbor Sharon Everitt, echoing the question that has hung over the rural town since late March. "Christians don't shoot Christians."



I find that comment hilarious: "Christians don't shoot Christians." laughing

debbiejo
Even thinking about killing another is a sin..........you can't even say "racca"........which means I think something like "You idiot."

Alliance
what language is that?

debbiejo
I think it's Aramaic Which Jesus spoke...

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Raca Vain, empty, worthless, only found in Mat 5:22. The Jews used it as a word of contempt. It is derived from a root meaning "to spit."

Justbyfaith
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are alive, we don't have to understand it. Do you have to understand gravity to stay on the Earth?

Great point, and like the wind you don't have to see it to believe in it...so is with God.

Alliance
Except with wind, we can directly experiment with it, dublicate it, make it visible. wink

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