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The Judge Jury and Excutioner of Marvels Mutiverse vs The Power of Creation

Living Tribunal
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/golem370/living_tribunal01.gif



vs



http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/golem370/phoenix_force01.gif

bump

mr masters and galactic storm need to get into this thread

IMO Living Tribunal is more powerful.

Originally posted by golem370
IMO Living Tribunal is more powerful.
i agree

From the OHOTMU issue released yesterday.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6188/scan6cq.th.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7418/scan00019au.th.jpg

What is OHOTMU?

I like the parts where it says it's only superior is the One-Above All.. and "the Living Tribunal then had the Phoenix Force depart from earth."

Originally posted by Takion
What is OHOTMU? The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe
Thanks bro.

does it really matter if LT made the PF leave earth every universe only had a PF avatar not the entire force the force itself in its wholeness resides in the white hot room.

The point is he was able to.

my point is its just an avatar its not diffrent then when supes beats those weak avatars of darkseid.

wheres the 2 people who know these characters right. its weird because they both provide scans, essays and arguements.

they both vanished?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
From the OHOTMU issue released yesterday.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6188/scan6cq.th.jpg

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/7418/scan00019au.th.jpg
Looks like LT finally decided to use his incredible power to give himself individual fingers. All those years where he couldn't pick up dropped coins must have sucked.

To GS (when he eventually shows up)...I know you're going to state that the Phoenix is a multiversal force and all that jazz, but how is it that a simple Shi'ar weapon can hurt the Phoenix to the point where it needs to look for a host? This happened in 'Endsong'...where the Phoenix was flying through space and was shot down by a Shi'ar weapon. It was so weakened, that it used a firefly as a host. You're telling me THIS is the 'heart of creation'?

BTW, this was an avatar-less Phoenix, which is supposed to be much more powerful than an avatar.

Originally posted by Lord S
To GS (when he eventually shows up)...I know you're going to state that the Phoenix is a multiversal force and all that jazz, but how is it that a simple Shi'ar weapon can hurt the Phoenix to the point where it needs to look for a host? This happened in 'Endsong'...where the Phoenix was flying through space and was shot down by a Shi'ar weapon. It was so weakened, that it used a firefly as a host. You're telling me THIS is the 'heart of creation'?

BTW, this was an avatar-less Phoenix, which is supposed to be much more powerful than an avatar.
The same way Reed just owned Living Tribunal and his buddies.

Originally posted by Validus
The same way Reed just owned Living Tribunal and his buddies. i want to finaly see pics.

hmm, according to this a number of things seem to be alluded to:

1. lt did use its authority to send away the pf. the way it is worded certainly SEEMS to indicate the way marvel views the relationship between the -- lt>pf.

2. pre-retcon beyonder DID wipe out death!!? i thought it was all illusions . . .

3. lt>ig

4. hotu was indeed multiversal and>lt

some odd allusions, to say the very least . . .

Additionally they've distinguished - though rather convolutedly - the difference between a universe, a multiverse and the omniverse.

Where does that put someone like Roma/Merlyn who've always been noted as the Omniversal Guardian.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Additionally they've distinguished - though rather convolutedly - the difference between a universe, a multiverse and the omniverse.

Where does that put someone like Roma/Merlyn who've always been noted as the Omniversal Guardian. Or Energy Superman, "potentially the most powerful being in the omniverse" if ever grasped his powers.

Originally posted by Juntai
Or Energy Superman, "potentially the most powerful being in the omniverse" if ever grasped his powers.
okay???????????????????????????

Originally posted by Validus
The same way Reed just owned Living Tribunal and his buddies.

Yeah, but the writer viewed it being merely an M-body appearance of LT.

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=060628190826

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Additionally they've distinguished - though rather convolutedly - the difference between a universe, a multiverse and the omniverse.

Where does that put someone like Roma/Merlyn who've always been noted as the Omniversal Guardian.

Eh, this just proves Rhino is not the biggest jobber in comics. That's what the fundamental forces of existence are for.





LOOOOOOOOOOL. Superman > Omiverse > TOAA/Presence

I bet DC had to give half their copyrighted stuff to Marvel for that aggreement. But I think it's worth it.

Why is the Omniverse above TOAA... it's a thing not a person/entity.

there is only one LT i dont think its an M-Body or that he has any

Originally posted by Mider
there is only one LT i dont think its an M-Body or that he has any

quoted from Tom Delfalco himself.

"Also, while the the LT exists in all dimensions at the same time, I believe that this particular physical manifestation of the LT can be temporarily hurled across the dimensional planes...just like a part of your body can be injured or even die (think of finger tip that is infected and needs to be amputated) without affecting the rest of your body."

So it's either MC2 last planet standing doesn't adhere to the rules or he can still manisfests parts of himself througout realities while his other parts did not at will as m-bodies

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Yeah, but the writer viewed it being merely an M-body appearance of LT.

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=060628190826
I like how he likens an M-body to but a fingernail of the whole but that still doesn't make up for Reed's feat. I know the "comic book tech > all" rule but usually that doesn't go for human tech.

Originally posted by Validus
I like how he likens an M-body to but a fingernail of the whole but that still doesn't make up for Reed's feat. I know the "comic book tech > all" rule but usually that doesn't go for human tech.

Oh believe me, it does, specially for Reed and Doom. Science and Logic keeps bending backwards for them. Guy does crazy shit and was responsible for creating 616 and stuff.

Whole abstract being have succumbed to lesser tech in the past *cough*phoenix and Galactus*cough*. And besides, LT wasn't defeated or killed, he was hurled outside the universe and if it was just a small part of LT, it isn't that hard to accept specially considering they were concentrating at Galactus around the time.

oh so now he exists in every dimension when before he was only one single entitity that would go to the dimensions he was needed in? thats lame

All that nigh-omniscience in one room should have seen something coming.

I guess in that Universe Reed was Wolverine.....jockey

Originally posted by Mider
oh so now he exists in every dimension when before he was only one single entitity that would go to the dimensions he was needed in? thats lame

No, he is still a single entity Mider. He can however just send part of his body to exist in a reality. He mostly resides in the Star chamber and sent parts of himself if there is trouble.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Why is the Omniverse above TOAA... it's a thing not a person/entity.

What I understand is that the Omniverse is everything: Marvel Universe, Image Universe, Valiant, DC Universe, Transformers, Tekkaman, Lord of the Ring's universe, Lovecraft's universe, etc. including the real multiverse/universe (ours). The Omniverse is the composition of every multiverse. TOAA, Presence, or whatever god you'd have are seperate entities/it/he/she/whatever. That is if you want to see them as the same being but appearing as different aspects to different multiverse/universe.

Originally posted by Validus
All that nigh-omniscience in one room should have seen something coming.

well i dunno that myself. so i'd just quote Tom's explanation. Perhaps they didn't care enough since they can eventually return.

"Reed did not deflect the power of the Great Powers' attack. He merely struck first. As I see it, Reed sucker punched them. While they were focused on Galactus, he struck before they could launch their own attack."


"I see Reed's weapon as a vibratory beam that reflects the target's own power back at the target. The more powerful the target, the more powerful the reflection."

"Reed caught the Great Powers by surprise...which is the only reason why his weapon worked...and only temporarily. I believe any one of the Great powers can easily and eventually bust free of Reed's "endless loop". All Reed did was buy Earth a little time."

Originally posted by Mider
oh so now he exists in every dimension when before he was only one single entitity that would go to the dimensions he was needed in? thats lame

It's not lame. He is afterall the guarding of the multiverse. He doesn't just tell threats to 616 to wait till he's done with the trials of the other universes.

can someody show me scans?

This will get ugly...

Oh, and also I think they are saying that the sum of the LT exists outside the multiverse, but he can manifest in the physical realm in multiple universes simultaneously.

basically, he does what Phoenix does, except he doesn't use host/avatars, he uses M-Body representations of himself that embody a fraction of his total sum (a 'fingernail' of the whole LT).

It makes sense.

The LT M-Body is analagous to Rachel Summers as a Phoenix Host. Not the full embodiment of the whole Phoenix/LY, but enough to get the job done (most of the time).

Now I await to be berated by a certain Phoenix Stan...

so was that the real LT that fught beyonder?

Yes and no.

It was the LT, but it wasn't the total sum of the LT's power. It was only the LT M-Body of the 616 with an undefined amount of the LT's total sum of power.

I think GS was right in another thread where he said that LT is limited in how much power he can bring to bear in a given reality because his main duty is protection, not destruction. LT can be carrying out tasks on multiple planes of existence simultaneously from his vantage point outside the M-MV. I don't think it's ever been necessary for him to devote his total sum into a single universe. Or at least not depicted.

Here is a question who wins Jean Grey/Phoenix vs Abstract Silver Surfer when LT gave him a taste of that power. LT is law in every Universe Marvel has like Ultimate,House of M,AOA,Desth's Head II's, and any more that there are. But he take stop the natural balance that beyond his powers like IG Thanos becoming Eternity or maybe even stopping HOTU Thanos from consuming him and all abstracts in that Universe. I also find it funny that Phoenix was not in ether sages IG or HOTU. Where was it during Hero's reborn?

It's been said that Beyond was given those powers by the writer and he did not have permission to make him most powerful being in the universe that why he was he lost to Kubik

"When Earth-89112's reality was overrun with demons, the Living Tribunal nearly destroyed it, but that earth was redeemed by its counterpart the Phoenix Force , which eradicated all of the demons. The Living Tribunal then had the Phoenix Force depart from earth."

Tell the truth and shame the devil.

Why wasn't Phoenix in the big Starlin sagas? Who knows. My guess is that Starlin didn't want to use the character. Besides, as much as people ***** about Phoenix now, can you imagine if Phoenix had been involved in those situations?

Illadelph12, I made the comments about the M-bodies for the LT before, but was thoroughly belittled and berated. It didn't make any sense to me that the LT would not have M-bodies like the other abstracts, especially since he was shown to have them in the Dimension of Manifestations.

He is above every other abstract in Marvel Eternity.Lord Chaos Master Order,Celestials and Galactus he is in a whole other level then them.

ok someone just posted a page from the offical whatever and it says there's only one LT and that he has no counterparts like eternity or galactus then they made a story where the wrighter says there IS counterparts.

Originally posted by Mider
ok someone just posted a page from the offical whatever and it says there's only one LT and that he has no counterparts like eternity or galactus then they made a story where the wrighter says there IS counterparts. When and where did that happen?

dude its in the very beginning of this thread..........and your the one who posted it wherent you?

Eternity Galactus Death Lord Chaos & Master Order Love and Hate are all part of this Universe but Living Tribunal is above them he is Muti-versal

Originally posted by Mider
dude its in the very beginning of this thread..........and your the one who posted it wherent you? I meant where'd you get the idea that the LT has counterparts. That's not in the handbook, and that's not what the writer of Last Planet Standing (where Reed Richards sucker punched a cosmic group) said either.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Why wasn't Phoenix in the big Starlin sagas? Who knows. My guess is that Starlin didn't want to use the character. Or maybe he wasn't allowed to use the character...we know there's a lot of behind-the-scenes politics. Certain characters (usually X-characters) are protected by certain writers (ie. Claremont) and editors, and without a doubt, Phoenix is one of them. Keith Giffen and Andy Schmidt relayed those sentiments in a recent 'Annihilation' interview...though very, very indirectly.

The LT is above phoenix








why? Its because Marvel said so.

then what is that thing you posted, someone quoted that LT has m-bodies if there is only one with out counters how can he have an M-body less M-body is something i dont understand.

Actually, the handbook says that LT and Phoenix are counterparts.



It's a matter of reading comprehension, Mider.

This statement means that LT and Phoenix are peers.

It seems the difference is that Phoenix is responsible for creation, and LT is responsible for protecting and maintaining said creation, which makes perfect sense (and is also what I said myself a few months back in a discussion leonidas, demigawd, GS, and a few others were having).

This does clarify a few things.

LT and Phoenix's roles are somewhat co-dependent. Or at least up until the point when it's time for Phoenix to purge the multiverse and restart it. At that point LT's role isn't necessary.

Makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Mider
then what is that thing you posted, someone quoted that LT has m-bodies if there is only one with out counters how can he have an M-body less M-body is something i dont understand.

There is only one LT, but he can be in more than one place at one time.

Just like there is only one Phoenix Force, but it can manifest itself into multiple physical planes of reality at one time.

The only difference is that the Phoenix Force uses avatars/hosts that are embued with a portion of it's sum of power to carry out a duty, and LT uses M-Body representations that are embued with a fraction of his sum of power to carry out a duty. That is from the writer and the handbook, not my 'opinion' (though congruent with my opinion).

Originally posted by Mider
then what is that thing you posted, someone quoted that LT has m-bodies if there is only one with out counters how can he have an M-body less M-body is something i dont understand. I have the handbook entry on The Dimension of Manifestations that'll help explain it to you. I'll scan it in tomorrow and post it.

Originally posted by illadelph12
This statement means that LT and Phoenix are peers.

It seems the difference is that Phoenix is responsible for creation, and LT is responsible for protecting and maintaining said creation, which makes perfect sense (and is also what I said myself a few months back in a discussion leonidas, demigawd, GS, and a few others were having).

That quote by Cosmic Flame is misworded. It actually says, "but that earth was redeemed by its counterpart of the Phoenix Force"

When read with correct text, that Phoenix Force is a counter part of 616's Phoenix Force and not a counterpart of the Living Tribunal.

I.E., "but that Earth (Earth-89112) was redeemed by its counterpart OF the Phoenix Force, which eradicated all of the demons. The Living Tribunal then had the Phoenix Force depart from earth."

Originally posted by golem370
The Judge Jury and Excutioner of Marvels Mutiverse vs The Power of Creation

Living Tribunal
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/golem370/living_tribunal01.gif



vs



http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h171/golem370/phoenix_force01.gif awesome pictures

I know that I said I was going to post some info today, but I had a change of plans. I'm going to make a thread over in the Comic Books forum posting all of the OHOTMU entries on all of Marvel's cosmics, and abstracts. Check for it there in about an hour (I have to scan the info first).

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame

Why wasn't Phoenix in the big Starlin sagas? Who knows. My guess is that Starlin didn't want to use the character. Besides, as much as people ***** about Phoenix now, can you imagine if Phoenix had been involved in those situations?

What do you mean if Phoenix got involved? You make it sound like it could've done something.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t410657.html