Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If God is eternal (i.e. has existed forever), then he logically cannot have either had a beginning or an end. Since he is omniscient, he knows everything. I believe that with a single being existing as the sole thing in eternity, there can be no real concept of time. When, then, did God decide to create the universe?

Assuming we are the only universe God has created, then he must have known how we would turn out as soon as he came into existence. Since he is eternal, he never came into existence, and thus the decision to create the universe must also be eternal. Along with the fact that for God there cannot be any passage of time, then the universe must have always been in existence (since he would have created as soon as he came into existence, but he's eternal).

If, then, the universe has always been in existence, then what is the need of a God to create it?

(I know there's probably myriads of flaws in there, but it confuses me. An omniscient God can have no concept of time, since he knows everything that has happened and will ever happen at once.)

because sometimes you have to think about how there really isn't a god.

Originally posted by LizzyT123
because sometimes you have to think about how there really isn't a god.
Wow, what a revelation. It must be great knowing everything at only 15 years old.

Originally posted by Trickster
If God is eternal (i.e. has existed forever), then he logically cannot have either had a beginning or an end. Since he is omniscient, he knows everything. I believe that with a single being existing as the sole thing in eternity, there can be no real concept of time. When, then, did God decide to create the universe?

Assuming we are the only universe God has created, then he must have known how we would turn out as soon as he came into existence. Since he is eternal, he never came into existence, and thus the decision to create the universe must also be eternal. Along with the fact that for God there cannot be any passage of time, then the universe must have always been in existence (since he would have created as soon as he came into existence, but he's eternal).

If, then, the universe has always been in existence, then what is the need of a God to create it?

(I know there's probably myriads of flaws in there, but it confuses me. An omniscient God can have no concept of time, since he knows everything that has happened and will ever happen at once.)
This is the only way I can think of explaining the whole eternity question. God is a being that has total control of time, space, energy and matter. Time doesn't apply to God because He controls it and lives outside of it. Think of it this way, if you controlled time, you could go back to the dawn time and then travel to the end of time. This would make you eternal. You would have been around from the beginning of time to the end of time.

GOD is what we WANT him to be. How convenient.

Originally posted by badabing
Wow, what a revelation. It must be great knowing everything at only 15 years old.

well honestly, why should I believe? my age doesn't mean anything to me...but if you're gonna judge me by that, whatever

Originally posted by badabing
This is the only way I can think of explaining the whole eternity question. God is a being that has total control of time, space, energy and matter. Time doesn't apply to God because He controls it and lives outside of it. Think of it this way, if you controlled time, you could go back to the dawn time and then travel to the end of time. This would make you eternal. You would have been around from the beginning of time to the end of time.

But still, what would be the point of travelling backward and forward? God would already know everything and would have done everything the first time round. And to suggest God is following some sort of cosmic plan implies there's a greater power.

In the same vein, if there is a beginning and an end, then they are boundaries, much like the boundaries of this universe. Who made them?

Originally posted by SelphieT
well honestly, why should I believe? my age doesn't mean anything to me...but if you're gonna judge me by that, whatever
I was just ribbing you. I apologize. There is no reason to believe. It's all about Faith. I choose to believe because there has to be something more in existence than Earth and the rest of the universe. There has to be a reason. So, once again, I apologize and I didn't mean anything with my comment to your post.

Originally posted by Trickster
But still, what would be the point of travelling backward and forward? God would already know everything and would have done everything the first time round. And to suggest God is following some sort of cosmic plan implies there's a greater power.

In the same vein, if there is a beginning and an end, then they are boundaries, much like the boundaries of this universe. Who made them?
Wow, you have some questions! I'll have to think on this one a bit. I promise to try and come up with a good response.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God The Father

1. God Is One—Deuteronomy 6:4; Malachi 2:10; Isaiah 46:9; Romans 3:30; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 3:20; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5; James 2:19
2. Creator—Job 4:17; Psalm 95:6; Isaiah 40:28
...
33. Love—2 Corinthians 13:11
34. Great and Awesome—Nehemiah 4:14

And this helps... how? It doesn't answer my question.Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Well, he doesn't sound like the fire breathing dragon that people are trying to avoid for some reason.

Wooo! He's not a fire-breathing dragon! Who cares? That's not what the thread's about.

If neither of you can give an answer, don't just wave your Bible in my face.Originally posted by badabing
Wow, you have some questions! I'll have to think on this one a bit. I promise to try and come up with a good response.

Cool. Thanks.

Originally posted by Trickster
But still, what would be the point of travelling backward and forward? God would already know everything and would have done everything the first time round. And to suggest God is following some sort of cosmic plan implies there's a greater power.

In the same vein, if there is a beginning and an end, then they are boundaries, much like the boundaries of this universe. Who made them?
I consider time, space and existence as a closed circle with no beginning or end. It just exists. I agree that someone or something had to construct all of existence. I cant fathom that we owe existence to just the random luck of being in the right place at the right time.

Why do Humans continually get arrogant enough to the point where they believe they can understand certain concepts such as eternal when they can't even figure out how switch an economy based on oil to free-energy. ermm

Well, that doesn't help, but thanks for the input.

So existence is a closed circle, and I assume God exists outside it. Why, then, if he is a greater than time, does he describe himself in terms of time? If God is inside existence, then who made him?

Also, if time is a circle, then all our actions are simply repeated, and we cannot really have free will. Can we?

Originally posted by Trickster
But still, what would be the point of travelling backward and forward? God would already know everything and would have done everything the first time round. And to suggest God is following some sort of cosmic plan implies there's a greater power.

In the same vein, if there is a beginning and an end, then they are boundaries, much like the boundaries of this universe. Who made them?

God did.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God did.

Wow, you have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

Enlighten me. Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to convey.

Originally posted by Trickster
Well, that doesn't help, but thanks for the input.

So existence is a closed circle, and I assume God exists outside it. Why, then, if he is a greater than time, does he describe himself in terms of time? If God is inside existence, then who made him?

Also, if time is a circle, then all our actions are simply repeated, and we cannot really have free will. Can we?
The circle was a metaphor to show how something can exist with no beginning or end. God does exist outside of all existence though. God is the only real beginning and end. Nobody made God, He's the Alpha and Omega. God can't be described in terms of what Humans consider time. Say you died and went to Heaven and for some reason God sent you back. There are no words that you could use that would be able to describe God or what He looks like.

Right... I'm not sure if I can explain things better than I have previously. I'll give it a go:

(1) An eternal being can't have a beginning or end.
(2) God is an eternal being.
Conclusion: God does not have have a beginning or an end.
(3) Time is a measurement of the progression between two points (a beginning and an end).
Conclusion: There can be no passage of time for God.

Question: When did God decide to create the universe?

Development:

(1) There is no passage of time for God.
(2) All God's actions occur at once
Conclusion: God must have created the world immediately he began to exist.
(3) God is eternal
Conclusion: The universe is eternal.

Question: If the universe is eternal, then what need is there of a God to create it?

_____

The actual point you were responding to was my response to badabing’s own response. He suggested that God actually travelled backward and forward in an existing timeline. I asked that if God was travelling backward and forward in such a timeline, that had a beginning and end, then they are effectively boundaries on God. God, then is not all-powerful, and in turn, the existence of boundaries give rise to the question of what made them.

_____

Actually, I’m not sure if that is clearer. Sorry if it isn’t. If you read it, explain to me any points you don’t understand.

Originally posted by badabing
The circle was a metaphor to show how something can exist with no beginning or end. God does exist outside of all existence though. God is the only real beginning and end. Nobody made God, He's the Alpha and Omega. God can't be described in terms of what Humans consider time. Say you died and went to Heaven and for some reason God sent you back. There are no words that you could use that would be able to describe God or what He looks like.

So, basically, God is beyond human understanding. That can't strictly be true, though, for we are made after his likeness, aren't we?

If God is beyond human understanding, then how can the Bible be the definitive authority on him? There would be no possible way to describe him at all, and clearly that isn't true either, for God describes himself in his Word. People talk to God, and describe it afterwards.

Of course, if you were to claim that God was only the beginning and the end, I'd have no way to dispute that. But it is an unsatisfactory answer, as there's no way for anyone to offer logical argument on the subject. And it offers no evidence as to why it is the Christian God that is the beginning and end.

Okay, so God exists in a realm devoid of time. That means everything happens at once, takes infinity to happen, or doesn't happen at all?

Either way, the universe is also eternal, and if so, why seek a reason for the universe's existence.

No, the universe is not eternal. The universe had a starting point, a beginning. Scientists theorize that the universe is still expanding. Yes, it is still expanding at the same rate that God spoke it into existence.

But if there is no point of reference outside of the universe, then the universe came into existence at the same time as Time.

Perhaps you are right Trickster; However, what is the point of these questions?

I just want to know if there is an adequate response to them. I do not dismiss the existence of God, but I see several logical flaws in such an existence - at least in the existence of a God of Classical Theism (such as the Christian God) - and I am unsure of how people can believe in something so flawed.

Trickster, God requires us to accept Him and His Word with child-like faith. Hypothetically speaking if you had a son/daughter that is say, 6 years old and you told that child not to play with knives, that child shouldn't play with knives. You do not have time to explain every single instruction that you give your child. Your child should just trust that you have his/her best interest at heart and do as you say. How would feel if everytime you told your child or younger sibling not to do something they tried to psychoanalyze you. Asking you, "well why can't I do this, and why can't I do that?" You would get so furious you would probably shout at them and say, "because I said so."

Can you see what I mean?

Trickster, the time travel was just a way of explaining the whole eternal thing. I didn't say God traveled through time. I was making a point that if a person could travel through time, they would seem eternal because they could travel back long before they were born and travel ahead long after they die. The question of God seeing everything at once is correct. Think of it this way, a person on the ground only knows about the events that are in very close proximity, but a person on the top floor of a skyscraper would know events occurring from far away. It's all a matter of perspective. God can see everything at once but we can only see things from our own finite perspective.

"Think of it this way, a person on the ground only knows about the events that are in very close proximity, but a person on the top floor of a skyscraper would know events occurring from far away. It's all a matter of perspective. God can see everything at once but we can only see things from our own finite perspective."--Badabing


As Tony the Tiger used to say, "your right!" Wait Tony the tiger didn't say that. Any way you are right Badabing about God seeing everything all at once. God sees the past, present, and future at the same time.

It's not that just god can see all things happening at once, there are many theories that speak of other dimensions and things seen outside of time...Including multiple realities, universes, holographic in nature and such.

but it be rushing to say that someone's god could see into those as we don't even know if we can see into ours.