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Can these three DC powerhouses take on Marvels #2?

LT remove their powers and sneeze on them.

LT stomps on them and then takes a crap in the Anit Moniter's helmet.

LT owns them..drive trough people, nothing to see here..

No chance.

LT wins.

Oh come on. Isn't someone going to say PC Supes sneezes and.....

no because then LT would blow the universe at the 3....

if you aint TOAA or presence, Classic Beyonder - LT aint goin down.
I dont want to hear any PIS things that may have happened.
Thaons w/ HOTU was most likely as ALMOST as strong as TOAA. so thats an exception.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Oh come on. Isn't someone going to say PC Supes sneezes and.....

PC Supes is LT's biatch.

no he isnt......

**cough** i mean yes he is..

Why isn't he Drax?

LT

well darth erebus is right, isnt someone gonna say that pc supes sneezes and destroys a whole galaxy or that he juggles planets..

P.C. Supes is LT's whore so LT is a pimp pimp

why is Supes in this anyways?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
why is Supes in this anyways?

Because PC Supes had ridiculouly stupid feats the writers would create for him seemingly every issue. He was basically a god who had no limits his powers. And he had every power in the book in some shape or form.
I think that is why he put him in this fight i think

but it seems current supes slowely becoming like that again

Originally posted by Inhuman
Because PC Supes had ridiculouly stupid feats the writers would create for him seemingly every issue. He was basically a god who had no limits his powers. And he had every power in the book in some shape or form.
I think that is why he put him in this fight i think

but it seems current supes slowely becoming like that again


You're pretty close. There are more versions of Superman than any other comic character....by far. For some reason the DC writers seem to be his most obsessed fanboys. They can't stand to see him lose...ever, even though in all of his totally inconsistant power levels Pre Crisis Superman is OVERALL probably close to Thanos (without enhancements) in power. He's a very lame character, even by comic standards, but he does have his followers. People in this forum have claimed he can beat Galactus and some have even compared him to The Presence or becoming "one with God". He seems to be a bigger cult persona than kim Jung Il or Josef Stalin, and he's a fictional character.

Bump

Anti-Monitor was a match for the Spectre,PC-Supes left out, DS too he would have a 5,5/10 against LT.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Can these three DC powerhouses take on Marvels #2?

My avatar sure gets respect. Living Tribunal>Monitor>Supes>DS

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Anti-Monitor was a match for the Spectre,PC-Supes left out, DS too he would have a 5,5/10 against LT.

Spectre being matched by the Anti-Monitor is poor writing, or just DC forgetting how powerful Spectre is "supposed to be."

I'm really beginning to think this whole Spectre = Living Tribunal is crap, considering Spectre's lower showings.

Anyway, Tribunal sends them back to the DCU.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Spectre being matched by the Anti-Monitor is poor writing, or just DC forgetting how powerful Spectre is "supposed to be."

I'm really beginning to think this whole Spectre = Living Tribunal is crap, considering Spectre's lower showings.

Anyway, Tribunal sends them back to the DCU.

There are beings more powerful in DC that are superior to the LT and The spectre. The source, michael demurgous, Mr. Mxy on occasions, the Ultimator, the Word, all would own the Lt.

^That was the most ****ed up thing I'd ever heard.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
There are beings more powerful in DC that are superior to the LT and The spectre. The source, michael demurgous, Mr. Mxy on occasions, the Ultimator, the Word, all would own the Lt.

Living Tribunal=Spectre

Originally posted by guy222
Living Tribunal grabs Supes by the cape. Headbutt, Chokeslam. Off goes Supes head. He fights back. No arms and legs.



Living Tribunal wins. He always will. For the thread, he wins. Let it end.

Bah Gawd! A Chokeslam all the way to hell! Ka-,er, The LT wins bah pinfall! What a barnburner!

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Bah Gawd! A Chokeslam all the way to hell! Ka-,er, The LT wins bah pinfall! What a barnburner!

Cool. Off topic. Ur very good with ur knowledge.

A perfect new thread!

"Who can survive a headbutt from the Living Tribunal?"

I'm betting on Hulk Hogan. He's Hulk Up and then Leg Drop the Cosmic Judge of All Realities.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
A perfect new thread!

"Who can survive a headbutt from the Living Tribunal?"

I'm betting on Hulk Hogan. He's Hulk Up and then Leg Drop the Cosmic Judge of All Realities.



I am taking the Deadman.

Bump

LT still wins.

Lt smokes them. This isnt a contest.

LT FTW

At the absolute height of his power the Antimonitor stands a pretty good chance against the Living Tribunal. The other two are irrelevant to a battle at this level.

the Lt is way beyond them, he pwns them

Darkseid isn't fit to shine LT's ballz.

LT

Originally posted by fatgogeta
At the absolute height of his power the Antimonitor stands a pretty good chance against the Living Tribunal. The other two are irrelevant to a battle at this level. AM gets waxed as Lt >spectre.

I don't know - wouldn't Anti-Monitor alone be a good matchup against the Tribunal? He stalemated the Spectre (powered up by all of Earth's mystics) and put him in a coma.

Originally posted by roughrider
I don't know - wouldn't Anti-Monitor alone be a good matchup against the Tribunal? He stalemated the Spectre (powered up by all of Earth's mystics) and put him in a coma.

Tribunal was able to recreate Eternity by merely snapping his fingers during when Warlock had the Infinity Gauntlet. Anti-monitor takes time and technology to destroy each universe. LT is clearly on a whole other level of power.

As I understand it, the Living Tribunal is beyond the multiverse, this means that no character -not even Myx- has been shown destroying him besides Thanos with thotu. There is the misconception that the LT would be destroyed if you are able to destroy all reality, this is just not the case -if it was, destroying multieternity would mean destroying the tribunal.

The LT is on the level of the Specter fully backed up by God, any showing that loses to anything is clearly a lesser incarnation of the Specter and thus weaker than the tribunal. It goes without saying that the Antimonitor cannot fight such being.

Originally posted by Bentley
As I understand it, the Living Tribunal is beyond the multiverse, this means that no character -not even Myx- has been shown destroying him besides Thanos with thotu. There is the misconception that the LT would be destroyed if you are able to destroy all reality, this is just not the case -if it was, destroying multieternity would mean destroying the tribunal.

The LT is on the level of the Specter fully backed up by God, any showing that loses to anything is clearly a lesser incarnation of the Specter and thus weaker than the tribunal. It goes without saying that the Antimonitor cannot fight such being.

^^QFT. If the Anti-Monitor was as powerful as Living Tribunal, the whole Infinity Crisis would have lasted about 1 page in a comic book.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Oh come on. Isn't someone going to say PC Supes sneezes and..... And.... What? PC Supes destroys a Solar System, like he did before?

Hell, LT's fart could do more then that. srsly

After seeing PC Superman put a superdog cape around a neutron star and then proceed to throw the star a galaxy away, I'm not sure if I'm being serious or not.

Lt smokes the competition here. The team stands no chance.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
After seeing PC Superman put a superdog cape around a neutron star and then proceed to throw the star a galaxy away, I'm not sure if I'm being serious or not.

Not to mention travelling so fast that it threatened to destroy the universe, and being told by the Presence to chill the f*ck out.

Superman and Darkseid are non-factors.

Anti-Monitor, if he is at his strongest, can most likely match, even beat , Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Superman and Darkseid are non-factors.

Anti-Monitor, if he is at his strongest, can most likely match, even beat , Living Tribunal.

No.

Yeah, it's not like he stalemated Spectre ..

Oh wait ..

He did

Irrelevant as the Specter has fluctuating level of powers depending on the writers -I've seen him being knocked out by gas.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Yeah, it's not like he stalemated Spectre ..

Oh wait ..

He did

If the A.M. was as powerful as the Living Tribunal, the whole I.C. would have lasted one page in a comic and then DC universe would have been wiped out.

Originally posted by Bentley
Irrelevant as the Specter has fluctuating level of powers depending on the writers -I've seen him being knocked out by gas.

Too bad it was one of the most powerfull forms of Spectre and the low showing doesn't really mean anything in this case.

Originally posted by Kutulu
If the A.M. was as powerful as the Living Tribunal, the whole I.C. would have lasted one page in a comic and then DC universe would have been wiped out.

Assumptions are always fun to read and all.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor did wipe the infinite paralel Universes except the 5 remaining ones.

Okay, so you say it was one of the strongest versions of the Specter, where is that stated?

Even there, the LT is as strong as the strongest Specter and the difference between one of the strongest and the strongest can be a whole lot.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Too bad it was one of the most powerfull forms of Spectre and the low showing doesn't really mean anything in this case.



Assumptions are always fun to read and all.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor did wipe the infinite paralel Universes except the 5 remaining ones.

I cannot find where it was stated that the spectre had the presence's full backing.

The AM needed time and arguably tech to wipe out the universes. The LT would just need to pass judgment and it would be done.

Originally posted by Bentley
Okay, so you say it was one of the strongest versions of the Specter, where is that stated?

Even there, the LT is as strong as the strongest Specter and the difference between one of the strongest and the strongest can be a whole lot.

Living tribunal as strong as the strongest Spectre ? So the Living Tribunal is as strong as Spectre's Master (God) to which Spectre became one with ?

I'm just going to quote what I posted on the Spectre respect thread :

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm going to elaborate the time when Spectre enters the Source :


"You seek to reveal the mystery of God very well , you will be shown the nature of God"

Spectre becomes God :

"I feel every particle of it . I AM every particle"
"Galaxies .. Cosmos ... Universes ... a whole dimension ... filling every part of me !"

Spectre contains Creation within him :

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Merged2.jpg

"The black hole ! The end of Everything ! I/We feel Everything "
"And begins Again ... ?!"

Inside Spectre , the end of everything takes place and in a few moments , a new creation is born :

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Merged3.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Merged4.jpg

"If this is what it means to be God -- how does God stand it ?!"

It's confirmed again that Spectre became God :

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/Merged5.jpg




Originally posted by Ouallada
I cannot find where it was stated that the spectre had the presence's full backing.

The AM needed time and arguably tech to wipe out the universes. The LT would just need to pass judgment and it would be done.

If the Spectre would have God's full backing then he would become as strong as I posted above (he would practically merge with God) but in COIE he didn't thus why I wrote "One of the strongest versions of the Spectre"

Just to get a glimpse on how powerfull Spectre was during the COIE :

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3972/spectrepko0.th.png

"The ONE Force more powerfull than him"

So he was second only to God pre-Depowerment

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7176/spectrep1rj1.th.png

"His power once limitless ..."

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5685/spectrep2xe5.th.png

"Yours was the power omnipotent ... "

"The power to halt a Crisis on Infinite Worlds .. to preclude the epic struggle between heaven and hell"

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2822/spectrep3xz8.th.png

"Your Power Omnipotent was so great, so all encompassing"

(That is God adressing him)

The Anti-Monitor also recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter Universe destroyed :

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8818/monitor2hs0.th.png

And he wiped the infinite Universes until only 5 remained.

And he stood up to Spectre who had the kind of power I just described.

...

He is seriously underrated on this board. There are some people who think he is only slightly above Galactus.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Living tribunal as strong as the strongest Spectre ? So the Living Tribunal is as strong as Spectre's Master (God) to which Spectre became one with ?

I'm just going to quote what I posted on the Spectre respect thread :





If the Spectre would have God's full backing then he would become as strong as I posted above (he would practically merge with God) but in COIE he didn't thus why I wrote "One of the strongest versions of the Spectre"

So, how far was "one of the strongest versions of Spectre" from the strongest? Can that even be answered, or is that simply hyperbole/assumption?

Spectre also fluctuates a lot more than LT. That is without question. If you like, we could discuss the number of times he has jobbed. LT's only real losses were against HOTU and arguably Protege.

Of course, it can be argued that even Spectre at full power is below God.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Just to get a glimpse on how powerfull Spectre was during the COIE :

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3972/spectrepko0.th.png

"The ONE Force more powerfull than him"

That means what? We all know that DC's hierarchy reads Presence first and Spectre second. By that notion, he was jobbing to the AM, because a being second only to God should have treated the AM like the AM should have treated the heroes.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So he was second only to God pre-Depowerment

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7176/spectrep1rj1.th.png

"His power once limitless ..."


We already know that he is second to God.

I would focus more on the "once" portion rather than the "limitless" portion.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5685/spectrep2xe5.th.png

"Yours was the power omnipotent ... "

"The power to halt a Crisis on Infinite Worlds .. to preclude the epic struggle between heaven and hell"


By saying "power omnipotent", are you not alluding to a jobbing? If he was truly omnipotent, he would not have been stalemated. If he was stalemated by the AM's power, the narration would have been wrong, and he would not have been omnipotent. The second line posted by you backs it up.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2822/spectrep3xz8.th.png

"Your Power Omnipotent was so great, so all encompassing"

(That is God adressing him)


Once again, if his power was "omnipotent" and "all-encompassing", he would not have been stalemated. I could quote dozens of dictionaries on the definitions, but I think you understand the point.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
The Anti-Monitor also recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter Universe destroyed :

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8818/monitor2hs0.th.png

And he wiped the infinite Universes until only 5 remained.

And he stood up to Spectre who had the kind of power I just described.

...

He is seriously underrated on this board. There are some people who think he is only slightly above Galactus.

But still had trouble swatting top tiers away, getting poisoned by his shadows, hurt by DS etc? Forgive me for saying that there is a huge gap of logic here. Should a being that stalemated with the "omnipotent" spectre be trifling with such entities?

Let me summarise your logic.

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power.

Tell me if I am wrong here.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Living tribunal as strong as the strongest Spectre ? So the Living Tribunal is as strong as Spectre's Master (God) to which Spectre became one with ?

I'm just going to quote what I posted on the Spectre respect thread :





If the Spectre would have God's full backing then he would become as strong as I posted above (he would practically merge with God) but in COIE he didn't thus why I wrote "One of the strongest versions of the Spectre"

Just to get a glimpse on how powerfull Spectre was during the COIE :

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3972/spectrepko0.th.png

"The ONE Force more powerfull than him"

So he was second only to God pre-Depowerment

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7176/spectrep1rj1.th.png

"His power once limitless ..."

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5685/spectrep2xe5.th.png

"Yours was the power omnipotent ... "

"The power to halt a Crisis on Infinite Worlds .. to preclude the epic struggle between heaven and hell"

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/2822/spectrep3xz8.th.png

"Your Power Omnipotent was so great, so all encompassing"

(That is God adressing him)

The Anti-Monitor also recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter Universe destroyed :

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8818/monitor2hs0.th.png

And he wiped the infinite Universes until only 5 remained.

And he stood up to Spectre who had the kind of power I just described.

...

He is seriously underrated on this board. There are some people who think he is only slightly above Galactus.

Spectre underrated on this board? ROFL. That's a new one.

You also fail to mention how Spectre got punished after the whole I.C. because he didn't properly use the energy he was given to kill off A.M. from the get-go.

The strongest Specter is not as strong as God, nothing is.

In the instances that the LT has been defeated you can argue that TOAA Himself choose to have him lose, hence he was not being "backed up" by Him, mirrors the times when the Specter was defeated. If TOAA wants something done its clear than the LT is not going to be able to stand in the way.

Are you serios with this question ? Or do you want me to prove that the version from COIE is weaker than when Spectre became God thus the COIE version isn't the strongest one?



Just because Spectre was superior to AM doesn't mean he was that much stronger so that he would have treated AM like the AM should have treated the heroes. We know that Spectre was stronger and could have defeated the AM during COIE but he misused that power thus why he was punished but just the fact that AM was able to stand up to this version of Spectre, even without truly using his max, tells a lot.



This wasn't to show that Spectre is second to God but to show that he had limitless power. That was already proven in the first scan.





Did you miss the part from the scans that says that Spectre didn't use his power wisely and that he could have defeated the AM ?



You missed the circumstances in which those things happened and I really hope that you are not suggesting that Anti-Monitor at the height of his powers can't defeat the heroes ? Or that Darkseid can stand up to him in a one on one fight ?

My logic ? I showed that Spectre, although not using his powers to the max, was stalemated by the Anti-Monitor when this is one of the most powerfull versions of the Spectre.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, when it destroyed all the infinite Multiverse except the five remaining earths.

Who said anything about Spectre being underrated ? I was talking about the Anti-Monitor. Try to comprehend what I'm talking about.



It is stated that the Spectre was stronger than the Anti-Monitor and he didn't defeat him due to the misuse of that power but that doesn't change the fact that Anti-Monitor stood up to Spectre. Nor the fact that Anti-Monitor had the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, thus the power of the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining earths.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Are you serios with this question ? Or do you want me to prove that the version from COIE is weaker than when Spectre became God thus the COIE version isn't the strongest one?


I don't need that. I need an answer as to how much Spectre was weaker by. Not whether he was weaker or not, but how much he was weaker by. And yes, it is a serious question. I do not know why you would think otherwise.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Just because Spectre was superior to AM doesn't mean he was that much stronger so that he would have treated AM like the AM should have treated the heroes. We know that Spectre was stronger and could have defeated the AM during COIE but he misused that power thus why he was punished but just the fact that AM was able to stand up to this version of Spectre, even without truly using his max, tells a lot.


So basically, in summation, he jobbed?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
This wasn't to show that Spectre is second to God but to show that he had limitless power. That was already proven in the first scan.


Obviously that wasn't true, or he would have beaten the AM.



Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Did you miss the part from the scans that says that Spectre didn't use his power wisely and that he could have defeated the AM ?


Let's go over what "omnipotent", "all-encompassing" and "limitless" power entail. If spectre did have that kind of power, he would not have NEEDED to be wise with his power, because the very notion of limitlessness, omnipotence and the like is that there is no opposite that cannot be overcome.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You missed the circumstances in which those things happened and I really hope that you are not suggesting that Anti-Monitor at the height of his powers can't defeat the heroes ? Or that Darkseid can stand up to him in a one on one fight ?


Of course not, but a being near to spectre level, or whom is purported to beat the LT should not be wasting time on them, much less getting hurt by them. Tell me then if you are equating the AM to the LT knowing that beings such as supergirl and DS managed to stall him, and explain the logic there. The circumstances matter, I give you that, but they do not mitigate the logical gap.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
My logic ? I showed that Spectre, although not using his powers to the max, was stalemated by the Anti-Monitor when this is one of the most powerfull versions of the Spectre.

Not to mention that Anti-Monitor recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed, when it destroyed all the infinite Multiverse except the five remaining earths.

Again, "one of the most powerful" is nothing but hyperbole/assumption to me. That's just like me saying that the UN is one of the most powerful artifacts in the MU. Means little when compared to the HOTU.

Also, Spectre was at "one of his most powerful versions", but was not using his power to the max. Thus, you use the former portion to give the AM's power credence while forgetting about the latter portion, whereby the Spectre was not using said power wisely? Even if we put aside my above argument that an omnipotent being would not need superior intellect to achieve its goals, this sounds a lot like you forcing a square peg into a round logical hole.

So my question still stands. Is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

Or not? If not, tell me where I have deviated. Your extenuating circumstances have been answered above.

He was weaker. By how much ? That's based on assumptions really.



No.



So you're bringing the same arguments eventough it has been refuted ? It is stated that Spectre wasn't using the full extent of his powers.



Being that powerfull and actually using all that power are different things. It is stated that Spectre was all that by God, the same God who stated that he didn't use the power wisely. Do I need to say more ? No.



There is no logical gap because there were different levels of power displayed by Anti-Monitor during the crisis when in this discussion we are obviously discussing the strongest version.



You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to do it.

I'm using 2 arguments to prove how strong Anti-Monitor was.

The first one is the fact that he recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed and it destroyed the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining Universes.

My 2nd argument is the fact that he stalemated the Spectre. Did I point out using the scans aswell as when describing the argument that Spectre was not using his powers at the max ? Yes. If he was using them at the max would he have been to beat the Anti-Monitor during their confrontation ? Yes. As this is stated by God.

What is the part that you don't understand exactly ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
He was weaker. By how much ? That's based on assumptions really.


Then why bring it into this debate if it has nothing to do with how powerful spectre was at crisis?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
No.


By your reasoning, he was "omnipotent". He obviously failed to live up to said tag and did not use his power fully. What is it called if it is not jobbing?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
So you're bringing the same arguments eventough it has been refuted ? It is stated that Spectre wasn't using the full extent of his powers.


I will stop using these arguments once you decide if the Spectre was either not omnipotent, or was jobbing. As the narration tends to be the author's way of conferring information, I would presume the latter, but I await your call.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Being that powerfull and actually using all that power are different things. It is stated that Spectre was all that by God, the same God who stated that he didn't use the power wisely. Do I need to say more ? No.


Right, and we should take that narration to be correct for my abovementioned reasons. If he was omnipotent according to the narration, and if that is taken to be true, it has to be a jobbing then. Sugarcoat it by saying that it was an unwise usage of power or that he was only using a fraction of his power (I find this one much more logical), but it was still jobbing.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
There is no logical gap because there were different levels of power displayed by Anti-Monitor during the crisis when in this discussion we are obviously discussing the strongest version.


It does not matter which version it was. As long as AM was not stated to be "omnipotent" by the narrator, we can take it that the AM was below Spectre, and that the Spectre, by his omnipotence, would have defeated ANY opponent other than God. Anything other than that goes against the meaning of omnipotence. Now tell me, if the Spectre had not held back/had not been unwise, would the AM have been crushed? If yes, if that is not jobbing, what is it? If no, why then are we calling the spectre omnipotent?

Your logic has a gap, because according to you, the Spectre did not job. He was simply unwise. I take it that he held back. If he was not holding back and used all his power in its omnipotence, he would have won. Even if he was unwise, he would still have won when using his full power. Put this way, a four-year old kid would beat the LT with the HOTU. Being wise has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You either don't understand what I'm saying or refuse to do it.

I'm using 2 arguments to prove how strong Anti-Monitor was.

The first one is the fact that he recived the power of every Universe the Anti-Matter wave destroyed and it destroyed the infinite Multiverse minus the 5 remaining Universes.

My 2nd argument is the fact that he stalemated the Spectre. Did I point out using the scans aswell as when describing the argument that Spectre was not using his powers at the max ? Yes. If he was using them at the max would he have been to beat the Anti-Monitor during their confrontation ? Yes. As this is stated by God.

What is the part that you don't understand exactly ?

I could say the same about your lack of understanding, but I choose not to.

Showing how strong the AM is does not mean anything in the light of the Spectre's supposed omnipotence. If I had a Abraxas vs LT debate, would I show thousands of scans showing how powerful Abraxas was? No, because the LT is clearly above it. By your own logic, Spectre's omnipotence has placed it above AM and all other DC beings save God. In an example, a random thug showing how many fights he has won means nothing when he steps up against a fighter that is superior in every way.

So, Am stalemated Spectre, and we happily remember that the Spectre was omnipotent, and hence the AM is a pretty big fish, while forgetting that he was unwise/holding back/jobbing. I could say that I stalemated Tyson at his peak if the only thing he was doing was flicking his right thumb at my nose, but that does not place me anywhere near Tyson. same thing here. Either use a non jobbing/unwise/holding back (I am in fact convinced that he was holding back, not jobbing) Spectre at all his omnipotence to show the AM's level, or not at all, because your logic is pretty flawed at its base.

So, is it:

Spectre is omnipotent.

AM stalemates Spectre.

Therefore, AM is at a similar level of power

?

Because that guy said that Living Tribunal is as strong as the strongest version of Spectre and I pointed out that he was wrong.



Jobbing is when somebody has been shown to be able to use the said power to the fullest extent yet suddenly he doesn't and jobs so that he can make another character look good . This is not the case here. So I ask you again, how is this jobbing ?



I'm going to put all the paragraphs in the same quote since we are discussing pretty much the same thing in all of them.

As I explained above, it is not jobbing. Spectre is stated by the supreme being in DC to be Omnipotent and that his power is limitless and all-encompassing. Just because he didn't use that power to its fullest extent does not equal jobbing because he was never shown to be able to use it to its fullest extent. With full understanding of his power he would have been able to use the powers to its fullest potential and defeat Anti-Monitor but he didn't have that kind of understanding of his powers.

In short, yes, Spectre is Omnipotent but he does not have the necessary knowledge to use that power to its fullest thus why he didn't defeat the Anti-Monitor.

Jobbing is called when a character has been shown to be able to do something yet in a confrontation between him and another character he doesn't use the same ability/power against him and loses/doesn't beat him. Which is not the case here.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Because that guy said that Living Tribunal is as strong as the strongest version of Spectre and I pointed out that he was wrong.


So we have no indication as to how powerful COIE spectre was?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Jobbing is when somebody has been shown to be able to use the said power to the fullest extent yet suddenly he doesn't and jobs so that he can make another character look good . This is not the case here. So I ask you again, how is this jobbing ?


Are you familiar with the term "jobbing" and its origins? A "job" is simply a scripted loss. It spills over to comicdom pretty simply. People say that surfer jobs to black panther, for example, because he was scripted to lose. That he did not use his full power is a tangent. There is no connotation that there must be a precedent for jobbing to occur.

Spectre was obviously jobbing by that definition, because 1) we, meaning both you and I, have agreed that Spectre > AM and should beat him and 2) he was sent out to stop the AM, and failed, meaning it would be more of a loss from his point of view.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm going to put all the paragraphs in the same quote since we are discussing pretty much the same thing in all of them.

As I explained above, it is not jobbing. Spectre is stated by the supreme being in DC to be Omnipotent and that his power is limitless and all-encompassing. Just because he didn't use that power to its fullest extent does not equal jobbing because he was never shown to be able to use it to its fullest extent. With full understanding of his power he would have been able to use the powers to its fullest potential and defeat Anti-Monitor but he didn't have that kind of understanding of his powers.

In short, yes, Spectre is Omnipotent but he does not have the necessary knowledge to use that power to its fullest thus why he didn't defeat the Anti-Monitor.

Jobbing is called when a character has been shown to be able to do something yet in a confrontation between him and another character he doesn't use the same ability/power against him and loses/doesn't beat him. Which is not the case here.

I have already defined jobbing. Even if Spectre had never shown usage of his power to its fullest extent, which your initial scans seem to contradict, it is taken that he is more powerful, and that he lost is simply jobbing. I would like to take a look at the scan of his punishment please. It's been a while since I read COIE. Back to the debate. Now that we have gotten the definition of jobbing out of the way, let me then postulate once again that if Spectre was omnipotent, which we have to assume due to the narration, he would not need great understanding of his own power.

Nebula arguably knew next to nothing about the IG, but undid Thanos' actions with the IG and beat the abstracts once again. Would you disagree that Aunt May with the Hotu would beat the LT easily?

Thus, you need to decide. If the Spectre was cumbered by various factors, and even then was holding back/jobbing, why is the AM even on the same scale as LT, given that the AM has even more low showings to drag his highest point downwards?

Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?



Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.



You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent

I have to point out that you have not shown any proof about the LT not being equal to the Specter at its fullest, you practically said "no its not" and blew it away. As stated above, Aunt May would destroy the LT with the HOTU because that is the power of Marvel God, true omnipotence. This is not a bad showing to the LT, if he was faced with God's true power the Specter would just be teared into pieces.

Did you miss this the part where I showed the strongest version of the Spectre is practically the one that became God ? Or are you trying to imply Living Tribunal = God



Assumptions are always fun to read on.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?



Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.



You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent

Your statements don't make any sense. Spectre jobbed to A.M., everybody on this board knows it except you apparently.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Did you miss the scans where God states how powerfull Spectre was, but didn't use his powers to the fullest potential ?

Nope, but using power unwisely is very very different from not knowing how to use power. Do you understand the difference?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Are you seriously comparing the Black Panther/Silver Surfer scenario when talking about Spectre/Anti-Monitor ? I already explained why "jobbing" doesn't apply in this case due to the circumstances and it seems the explination just flew by you.


Stop with the sniping please. The surfer scenario is just an example of jobbing. I have already defined what a "job" is. It is simply a scripted loss, which in comicdom means that an entity is written to lose. Your argument about not being experienced in an ability or not having shown an ability before not being equated to jobbing is your own tangent, and yours alone. I would prefer if we used the word "job" as the slang it was derived from. And yes, "jobbing" is the continuous tense of job.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
You haven't defined anything and I already explaine to you why "jobbing" isn't correctly used here so there's no point in discussing it further. The initial scans contradict the fact that Spectre has never shown the full extent of his powers with what exactly ? And why do you insist with the word "jobbing" again when it's been shown to be inappropriatley used ? And you also seem to imply that if a person is Omnipotent he automatically knows how to use his powers to the fullest extent

Defined once again above. Please stop making me repeat myself.

The initial scans show an obvious contradiction. They were from the 60s, right? Before COIE. Your argument is that the Spectre has never shown his full power before and lacks understanding. This is blatantly false, as he has become one with God (your words, not mine). Therefore, he would have an understanding of his full power, and there is no excuse for not showing it during COIE.

I insist on the right definition of "jobbing", not the one which suits myself best.

I am not implying that an omnipotent entity knows how to use his powers fully. Are you even reading my posts? I am implying that an omnipotent being should not need to even know how to use its powers optimally, because the nature of omnipotence means that there is no equal opposing power.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/541/spectre4aw2.th.png

Oh snap !



Jobbing is when somebody loses eventough they have been shown to have abilities that could have granted them the win yet did not use them. As I said and proven, jobbing doesn't apply here. I'm not going to repeat it all over again.



That's called irony.



Actually this scans are from after the COIE, and it's pretty obvious since it even mentions the COIE and how Spectre could have stopped it. Him becoming one with God proves .. what ? Because that point doesn't really show anything. The right definition of jobbing ? And what is that really ? Yours or the logical one which I presented ? As for the Omnipotent discussion, like I said, Spectre was Omnipotent but didn't exercise his power to its fullest potential.

In the end, what are we arguing about ? The fact that Spectre wasn't Omnipotent ? He was, as stated by God. The fact that against Anti-Monitor he didn't use his powers to its fullest ? We both agree upon that and it's also stated in the scans I presented. So what exactly are you trying to prove ?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/541/spectre4aw2.th.png

Oh snap !


What has that got to do with the difference between knowing how to use power and using it wisely? Missing forest for the trees and all that.

I'm not referring to Specter at full power. I am referring to his optimal use of power, of lack thereof. Interpret it then. Why exactly was said power impossible to use? Was it understanding? You tell me. Spectre at full ability is supposedly God (According to you), so by your logic, him not being able to use his full ability fits into the fact that he was weaker in COIE.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Jobbing is when somebody loses eventough they have been shown to have abilities that could have granted them the win yet did not use them. As I said and proven, jobbing doesn't apply here. I'm not going to repeat it all over again.


According to you means what? I can provide a link for my definition. Your own is simply what you wish it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_slang

Take a look and report back to me after you have accepted the definition.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
That's called irony.


You know what they say about people in glass houses.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Actually this scans are from after the COIE, and it's pretty obvious since it even mentions the COIE and how Spectre could have stopped it. Him becoming one with God proves .. what ? Because that point doesn't really show anything. The right definition of jobbing ? And what is that really ? Yours or the logical one which I presented ? As for the Omnipotent discussion, like I said, Spectre was Omnipotent but didn't exercise his power to its fullest potential.

In the end, what are we arguing about ? The fact that Spectre wasn't Omnipotent ? He was, as stated by God. The fact that against Anti-Monitor he didn't use his powers to its fullest ? We both agree upon that and it's also stated in the scans I presented. So what exactly are you trying to prove ?

I was referring to the instance in which he became God, according to you. That was in the 60s, no?

It shows that because he had wielded said power before, your faulty assumption that he lacked understanding of his power fails.

The right definition of jobbing is as it is defined from its origins, which is what I am using. You are arguing against it for what exactly? Should I perhaps inform Webster that you intend to rewrite their lexicon according to your "logical" take on things?

If you read my posts with any degree of understanding, you would see that I agree that the Spectre can be assumed to be omnipotent, as per the narration. We also agree that he did not use it fully against the AM. Your argument is that AM = "one of the most powerful versions of Spectre", ergo AM is Spectre level, while cleanly forgetting that the Spectre was NOT using his full ability. You and I have both agreed that Spectre should have won. His "omnipotence" should not have been answered by any being below God. That in itself is jobbing, or a sugarcoated term such as holding back etc.

Thus, Spectre cannot be stalemated by AM if he was omnipotent.

However, he was. => Spectre either was not omnipotent (we agree this is not the case) or was jobbing/holding back.

Thus, AM =/= an omnipotent Spectre, which means your hyperbole about him stalemating a "powerful version of Spectre" or an "omnipotent" Spectre has been shown to be nonsense.

In this case, using it unwisely and not being to use it to its fullest potential is the same thing. And yes, it was probably and most likely his lack of understanding of the power he wielded that he failed to use it to its fullest. Spectre at full power yes, pretty much merges with God but that doesn't really prove anything and has nothing to do with this case.



We are talking about Comics not Wrestling

I'm applying the definition based strictly on comics.

I will give an example.

Character A has been shown to have abilities far surpassing character B's yet character B defeats him in a fight when he shouldn't have based on their powersets and the fact that character A has been shown to have abilities with which he can beat character A but he hasn't used them in a fight. Does this qualify as Jobbing ? Yes.

But if character A has been stated to have certain abilities yet was never shown to be able to understand them fully and loses to character B to which character A's potential abilities are superior, does this qualify as jobbing ?



No, it was many years after COIE and the scans I presented where God reffers to his abilities.



I'd rather not repeat what I said in the same post, I explained above what jobbing is in comics.



Who said that I'm forgetting the fact that Spectre wasn't at his fullest ? I posted scans backing up the fact that he wasn't using his full potential and I already said that if he would fully understand his powers and used them to his fullest potential he would have defeated the AM. He is more powerfull than the Anti-Monitor. What I pointed out is that AM stalemated this version of Spectre who although wasn't at it's fullest potential, is still a very good showing from Anti-Monitor's power.
But apparently we have different views on the word "jobbing". I see someone as jobbing when they have shown to have abilities that put them above their adversary yet not use them in a fight against them, not somebody who is stated that have the ability yet they have not been shown to reach it's fullest potential.

LT for the win

Spectre was jobbing in COIE

Accidentally edited away this post. Erik, I will reply if have already quoted my post. If not, I see little reason to carry on. My points have been proven.

LT > Spectre

Laser gun>>>LT.

Originally posted by Estacado
Laser gun>>>LT.
then laser gun owns all

LT solos COIE

Originally posted by Air Legend
LT solos COIE Hell yeah.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In this case, using it unwisely and not being to use it to its fullest potential is the same thing. And yes, it was probably and most likely his lack of understanding of the power he wielded that he failed to use it to its fullest. Spectre at full power yes, pretty much merges with God but that doesn't really prove anything and has nothing to do with this case.



I have found some time between a couple of reports, so I shall rewrite my last post.

Firstly, using power unwisely and not using power optimally are not the same things. Even if I had optimal control of the IG, I could use said power to wreak havoc, thus being unwise from a conventional point of view.


Secondly, if Spectre at FP = God, according to yourself (a view I do not necessarily subscribe to), the scan you showed is kind of useless, unless you are arguing that Spectre could have been at full potential during COIE.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
We are talking about Comics not Wrestling


Guess where the term "jobbing" comes from?

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'm applying the definition based strictly on comics.

I will give an example.

Character A has been shown to have abilities far surpassing character B's yet character B defeats him in a fight when he shouldn't have based on their powersets and the fact that character A has been shown to have abilities with which he can beat character A but he hasn't used them in a fight. Does this qualify as Jobbing ? Yes.

But if character A has been stated to have certain abilities yet was never shown to be able to understand them fully and loses to character B to which character A's potential abilities are superior, does this qualify as jobbing ?


Let me break your reasoning down. Your reasoning is that a character is jobbing when he is defeated even though he is in possession of greater abilities than his opponent. Power levels count here, not power sets. We have both agreed that the omnipotent Spectre was > AM, and the very notion of omnipotence means that his power level was higher than that of any other DC being save God. However, he failed to beat AM (we could count this as a loss because he was assigned to beat AM, and failed in his objective) even with the higher power level. That in itself constitutes jobbing even by your own definition.

However, saying that a character is jobbing when defeated without using his full range of abilities is erroneous. If J'onn loses to a top tier without using the 1001 abilities he has, can you really call that jobbing? If he gets one-shotted by DS without using an exotic power, is that jobbing? I think we can both see that the questions are rhetorical. Full usage of power sets only matter when versatility is necessary (see SS/lanterns vs doomsday) or when a certain power affects a battle drastically (k-nite manipulation vs superman). In any other situation, power levels take precedence over usage of power sets.

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
No, it was many years after COIE and the scans I presented where God reffers to his abilities.


I remember an arc during the Corrigan times when he became one with all. I was referring to the scans you used to show the Spectre with godhood. Are they the same?


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
I'd rather not repeat what I said in the same post, I explained above what jobbing is in comics.


I have polished your definition and shown you why Soectre was jobbing even by your definition.


Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
Who said that I'm forgetting the fact that Spectre wasn't at his fullest ? I posted scans backing up the fact that he wasn't using his full potential and I already said that if he would fully understand his powers and used them to his fullest potential he would have defeated the AM. He is more powerfull than the Anti-Monitor. What I pointed out is that AM stalemated this version of Spectre who although wasn't at it's fullest potential, is still a very good showing from Anti-Monitor's power.
But apparently we have different views on the word "jobbing". I see someone as jobbing when they have shown to have abilities that put them above their adversary yet not use them in a fight against them, not somebody who is stated that have the ability yet they have not been shown to reach it's fullest potential.

Hmmm, that's an easy one. You initially used a version of Spectre who was claimed to be "omnipotent", have "limitless power" and who was one of Spectre's most powerful versions, said that AM stalemated with it and then postulated that AM could beat LT. Stalemating Spectre was obviously AM's best feat, but that is a Spectre was omnipotent yet jobbing (my view) or unable to use his power properly (your view). I have already asked where COIE spectre then stands on the power scale, but you were unable to answer because you could not make the assumptions necessary to answer. However, I do not recall any discourses on ambiguity when you reasoned that a being that stalemated the COIE spectre could draw with or beat the LT. It's still a good showing, a very good showing, but Abraxas has some pretty damn impressive showings as well, and he will never come close to the IG, much less the LT.

Let me rehash once again.

Spectre while jobbing/cumbered = AM (for that one showing)

Thus, AM >= LT? (even while considering the trouble DS/Luthor/supergirl/top tiers/shadow poisoning managed to cause?)

I think you can understand that AM >= LT is blatantly ridiculous.

Barring any exceptional circumstances, this will be my last post on this matter. Newcomers will believe what they will from our debate, and others will carry on believing what they believe. Nice debate, though.

LT still wins

Edit for wonky laptop.

LT takes this with ease. The Spectre that the AM fought during COIE wasn't as powerful as his more resent incarnations due to his taking orders from the Word rather than the Presence at the time, so the Spectre=LT comparison is pretty much meaningless.

This thread fails. I could see if DS had prep. Yeah he could make a machine like Reed's and pwn the LT with his own energies. And I'm sure that The AM could be a threat to the LT. Lessor beings have been. But in the end, LT wins.

You really want to pick the most illogical/PIS/stupid/insert derogatory statement incident and use that as an argument for the team?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
This thread fails. I could see if DS had prep. Yeah he could make a machine like Reed's and pwn the LT with his own energies. And I'm sure that The AM could be a threat to the LT. Lessor beings have been. But in the end, LT wins. Ds with prep failed to get the godwave. Hes good with prep but taking on the Lt he would fail.

Now Thanos has taken out the Lt but we are talking about Ds who isnt as good at prep as Mr. Thanos is.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ds with prep failed to get the godwave. Hes good with prep but taking on the Lt he would fail.

Now Thanos has taken out the Lt but we are talking about Ds who isnt as good at prep as Mr. Thanos is.

Please shut up. You are illogical.

In the context of said comic, unwise mostly reffers to Specter not using/being capable of using his power so that he would defeat the Anti-Monitor. For example if a person gets incredible powers yet has not had a chance or simply can't explore it to its fullest potential.
And I don't exactly understand why one scan nullifies the other ? Besides, there are 2 different circumstances. When Spectre became God he practically contained creation inside of him, a creation that was destroyed and reborn inside of him. That's pretty much on a whole new level from what he was in COIE.



We still have to accostume it to the comics.



The situation in which Spectre lost does not constitue jobbing because eventough he was stronger than Anti-Monitor, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God he couldn't acces/use the full potential of his abilities as the Presence even stated. I consider jobbing a situation where character A can't defeat character B because character B has been shown for example to withstand greater attacks than character A can dish out yet character A still beats him. For example Firelord being knocked out by Spiderman (the classic one) or Silver Surfer being bothered by Storm's lightning. Those are situations, at least in my definition of the word, where somebody jobbs.
Spectre has not shown to have full control of his powers nor displayed power that shows he can beat Anti-Monitor so just because he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor yet couldn't use his abilities at full potential and didn't beat Anti-Monitor does not mean jobbing.



Yes.



I said that he stalemated one of the strongest versions of the Spectre while at the same time I posted scans where it's also reffered that he wasn't using his full potential and that he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor. I did not state that Anti-Monitor was as strong as the Spectre during COIE just that he was able to stand up to him, which itself is a feat despite the fact that Spectre wasn't using the full range of his powers with which he would have defeated the Anti-Monitor. Spectre (full potential, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God) > Anti-Monitor . We both agree upon that.

This was essentially one of my two arguments showing that Anti-Monitor can compete with the Living Tribunal, along with the fact that the Anti-matter wave consumed nearly all the infinite Multiverse and that with each Universe consumed his power was added to Anti-Monitor's. Thus Anti-Monitor had an the power of an infinite number of Universes at his strongest.



As it will be mine, since we have pretty much expressed our different opinions



Yeah. It was nice talking to you

Originally posted by Erik-Lensherr
In the context of said comic, unwise mostly reffers to Specter not using/being capable of using his power so that he would defeat the Anti-Monitor. For example if a person gets incredible powers yet has not had a chance or simply can't explore it to its fullest potential.
And I don't exactly understand why one scan nullifies the other ? Besides, there are 2 different circumstances. When Spectre became God he practically contained creation inside of him, a creation that was destroyed and reborn inside of him. That's pretty much on a whole new level from what he was in COIE.



We still have to accostume it to the comics.



The situation in which Spectre lost does not constitue jobbing because eventough he was stronger than Anti-Monitor, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God he couldn't acces/use the full potential of his abilities as the Presence even stated. I consider jobbing a situation where character A can't defeat character B because character B has been shown for example to withstand greater attacks than character A can dish out yet character A still beats him. For example Firelord being knocked out by Spiderman (the classic one) or Silver Surfer being bothered by Storm's lightning. Those are situations, at least in my definition of the word, where somebody jobbs.
Spectre has not shown to have full control of his powers nor displayed power that shows he can beat Anti-Monitor so just because he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor yet couldn't use his abilities at full potential and didn't beat Anti-Monitor does not mean jobbing.



Yes.



I said that he stalemated one of the strongest versions of the Spectre while at the same time I posted scans where it's also reffered that he wasn't using his full potential and that he was stronger than the Anti-Monitor. I did not state that Anti-Monitor was as strong as the Spectre during COIE just that he was able to stand up to him, which itself is a feat despite the fact that Spectre wasn't using the full range of his powers with which he would have defeated the Anti-Monitor. Spectre (full potential, essentially Omnipotent and second only to God) > Anti-Monitor . We both agree upon that.

This was essentially one of my two arguments showing that Anti-Monitor can compete with the Living Tribunal, along with the fact that the Anti-matter wave consumed nearly all the infinite Multiverse and that with each Universe consumed his power was added to Anti-Monitor's. Thus Anti-Monitor had an the power of an infinite number of Universes at his strongest.



As it will be mine, since we have pretty much expressed our different opinions



Yeah. It was nice talking to you

It is good to see a civilized debate such as this for a change. No matter which side I agree with, both debaters presented their points excellently.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Now Thanos has taken out the Lt but we are talking about Ds who isnt as good at prep as Mr. Thanos is.

With THOTU, which is the ultimate power in MU and the greatest power comic universe has ever seen.

bump

Originally posted by Xplosive
With THOTU, which is the ultimate power in MU and the greatest power comic universe has ever seen. Yes Thanos could adapt to this power and survive on sheer willpower awesome.

As for the thread Lt easily.

LT

Superman hits him with Anti-Living Tribunal Vision.

LT easily

LT = Spectre

if his Boss wishes it he won't be defeated by those 3

LT FTW

LT without effort.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
LT = Spectre

if his Boss wishes it he won't be defeated by those 3

LT FTW Lt>Spectre. Spectre is dependent on too many outside factors to be on equal ground with Lt.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
LT = Spectre

if his Boss wishes it he won't be defeated by those 3

LT FTW If Superman wishes it he won't be defeated by LT. 131

This thread is nonsense!11
Darkseid and PC Superman?????????
WTF are you thinking? Are you smoking weed or sumthing??

LMFAO!!!!

It doesn't take a brain to know who wins.
LT fu*king wins, moro*.

Originally posted by Ouallada

I have found some time between a couple of reports, so I shall rewrite my last post.

Firstly, using power unwisely and not using power optimally are not the same things. Even if I had optimal control of the IG, I could use said power to wreak havoc, thus being unwise from a conventional point of view.


Secondly, if Spectre at FP = God, according to yourself (a view I do not necessarily subscribe to), the scan you showed is kind of useless, unless you are arguing that Spectre could have been at full potential during COIE.



Guess where the term "jobbing" comes from?


Let me break your reasoning down. Your reasoning is that a character is jobbing when he is defeated even though he is in possession of greater abilities than his opponent. Power levels count here, not power sets. We have both agreed that the omnipotent Spectre was > AM, and the very notion of omnipotence means that his power level was higher than that of any other DC being save God. However, he failed to beat AM (we could count this as a loss because he was assigned to beat AM, and failed in his objective) even with the higher power level. That in itself constitutes jobbing even by your own definition.

However, saying that a character is jobbing when defeated without using his full range of abilities is erroneous. If J'onn loses to a top tier without using the 1001 abilities he has, can you really call that jobbing? If he gets one-shotted by DS without using an exotic power, is that jobbing? I think we can both see that the questions are rhetorical. Full usage of power sets only matter when versatility is necessary (see SS/lanterns vs doomsday) or when a certain power affects a battle drastically (k-nite manipulation vs superman). In any other situation, power levels take precedence over usage of power sets.



I remember an arc during the Corrigan times when he became one with all. I was referring to the scans you used to show the Spectre with godhood. Are they the same?




I have polished your definition and shown you why Soectre was jobbing even by your definition.


Hmmm, that's an easy one. You initially used a version of Spectre who was claimed to be "omnipotent", have "limitless power" and who was one of Spectre's most powerful versions, said that AM stalemated with it and then postulated that AM could beat LT. Stalemating Spectre was obviously AM's best feat, but that is a Spectre was omnipotent yet jobbing (my view) or unable to use his power properly (your view). I have already asked where COIE spectre then stands on the power scale, but you were unable to answer because you could not make the assumptions necessary to answer. However, I do not recall any discourses on ambiguity when you reasoned that a being that stalemated the COIE spectre could draw with or beat the LT. It's still a good showing, a very good showing, but Abraxas has some pretty damn impressive showings as well, and he will never come close to the IG, much less the LT.

Let me rehash once again.

Spectre while jobbing/cumbered = AM (for that one showing)

Thus, AM >= LT? (even while considering the trouble DS/Luthor/supergirl/top tiers/shadow poisoning managed to cause?)

I think you can understand that AM >= LT is blatantly ridiculous.

Barring any exceptional circumstances, this will be my last post on this matter. Newcomers will believe what they will from our debate, and others will carry on believing what they believe. Nice debate, though.
Great post, sensible and correct imo.

The am solos obviously.

Originally posted by Sirius77
The am solos obviously. Huh?

Originally posted by Sirius77
The am solos obviously.
hysterical2

It's shit like this that makes people laugh at all your posts.

Originally posted by Sirius77
The am solos obviously. Not at all.


To even suggest that Am operates at Lt's level in my opinion is ignorant.


Would Supergirl give the Lt a close battle?

Well that AM was clearly not as powerful as he was later when he absorbed all the power of his universe.

But AM still loses.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Well that AM was clearly not as powerful as he was later when he absorbed all the power of his universe.

But AM still loses. Yes but Am still could be weakened enough by attacks to eventually be oneshotted by Superman.

Originally posted by Sirius77
The am solos obviously.
Stop embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by Stormbreaker

Stop embarrassing yourself.


hahaha. Yep.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes but Am still could be weakened enough by attacks to eventually be oneshotted by Superman. True, although the AM in that form was still a Multiversal entity. It took a series of intricate battle plans to kill him, and even while severely weakened, he survived being put in a White Star.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
True, although the AM in that form was still a Multiversal entity. It took a series of intricate battle plans to kill him, and even while severely weakened, he survived being put in a White Star. Ill give you that.


Am amped was a beast but not a beast who could defeat the Lt who is an even bigger beast.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes but Am still could be weakened enough by attacks to eventually be oneshotted by Superman. Painfully stupid.

Reading this actually hurt my brain organ.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ill give you that.


Am amped was a beast but not a beast who could defeat the Lt who is an even bigger beast. Yeah, I agree, he's good, not LT good. Although PC Superman would kick LT's ass. Fo rell. 131

So then the fact that the am stalemated the full powered specter, second to god combined with every dc mystic in the remaining multiverse means nothing to you.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Painfully stupid.

Reading this actually hurt my brain organ.
Um, did you read what Sirius77 wrote?

Originally posted by Sirius77
So then the fact that the am stalemated the full powered specter, second to god combined with every dc mystic in the remaining multiverse means nothing to you. Nope. Marvel Cosmics generally>DC, and LT>Spectre even with the upgrades. Also, if I recall, Spectre in that form was overpowering AM.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Um, did you read what Sirius77 wrote? I don't need to respond to every post to have an opinion.

And, Sirius may have an assy opinion (not limited to one of course), but Quan's logic... oh God Quan's logic! It's just... so terrible.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
I don't need to respond to every post to have an opinion.

And, Sirius may have an assy opinion (not limited to one of course), but Quan's logic... oh God Quan's logic! It's just... so terrible. Win.

OMG, Sirius... I just can't read his posts anymore. I can feel my brain get damaged with each abortion of an opinion he offers up.

Originally posted by Sirius77
The am solos obviously. Still funny.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
I don't need to respond to every post to have an opinion.

And, Sirius may have an assy opinion (not limited to one of course), but Quan's logic... oh God Quan's logic! It's just... so terrible.








hysterical2

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Painfully stupid.

Reading this actually hurt my brain organ. The point is he could be weakened. I dont think you could ever weaken the Lt enough to be oneshotted by someone with Supermans power. The only way to beat the Lt is actually having more power. You cant weaken him with blasts and strategy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is he could be weakened. I dont think you could ever weaken the Lt enough to be oneshotted by someone with Supermans power. The only way to beat the Lt is actually having more power. You cant weaken him with blasts and strategy. Why do you have to be such an anal rider sometimes?

Pre-Ret Beyonder could be weakened. Dat pussy tweren't even abstract leva, amirite?

Originally posted by King Kandy
OMG, Sirius... I just can't read his posts anymore. I can feel my brain get damaged with each abortion of an opinion he offers up.


Hahahaha

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Why do you have to be such an anal rider sometimes?

Pre-Ret Beyonder could be weakened. Dat pussy tweren't even abstract leva, amirite? Pre retcon Beyonder weakened himself though and put restrictions on himself. AMIRITE?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Pre retcon Beyonder weakened himself though and put restrictions on himself. AMIRITE? He weakened himself (which means he can be weakened... heh)... he got his power stolen by Doom... Beyonder's Bane would have proved to be his bane... Molecule Man was weakened after fighting him (and MM is over LT, so...)... used up much of his power dealing with Death... etc.

Either way you slice it, your logic absolutely fails to levels ova 9000!!!

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
He weakened himself (which means he can be weakened... heh)... he got his power stolen by Doom... Beyonder's Bane would have proved to be his bane... Molecule Man was weakening him (off memory)... etc.

Either way you slice it, your logic absolutely fails to levels ova 9000!!! Yes he weakened himself to the point of other beings being able to even defeat him. I have never heard of another being weakening himself except Thanos in the ig affair.

Point is if beyonder came in strutting his stuff and wanting to destroy his competition he could have.

Was MM weakening the already restricted Beyonder?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
He weakened himself (which means he can be weakened... heh)... he got his power stolen by Doom... Beyonder's Bane would have proved to be his bane... Molecule Man was weakening him (off memory)... etc.

Either way you slice it, your logic absolutely fails to levels ova 9000!!! Lol

Wut n9ne thouzand!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes he weakened himself to the point of other beings being able to even defeat him. I have never heard of another being weakening himself except Thanos in the ig affair.

Point is if beyonder came in strutting his stuff and wanting to destroy his competition he could have.

Was MM weakening the already restricted Beyonder? He weakened himself once... and then rushed in to get his power back. ELIOEL

OK. Why so much power descriptions of his power lowering?

It's been a while... so I changed it. Molecule Man, a being that was over LT, was weakened by fighting.
This tells me that your logic has a heavy odor of ass attached to it.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
So... his power can be drained.

OK. Why so much power descriptions of his power lowering?

It's been a while... so I changed it. Molecule Man, a being that was over LT, was weakened by fighting.
This tells me that your logic has a heavy odor of ass attached to it. Who weakened MM? Was it his fight with the Beyonder that weakened him?

Yes.

Before you try anything, I'd like to direct you to your earlier post:

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is he could be weakened.

You cant weaken him with blasts and strategy.
Now we wait...

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Yes.

Before you try anything, I'd like to direct you to your earlier post:



Let's see how you change your argument. But Am didnt fight anyone more powerful than him.


I said you can be overwhelmed by more powerful beings but that you cant be weakened by fighting weaker ones at this level.

But Am could have been different as he was amped for this story.

LT

Originally posted by quanchi112
But Am didnt fight anyone more powerful than him.


I said you can be overwhelmed by more powerful beings but that you cant be weakened by fighting weaker ones at this level.

But Am could have been different as he was amped for this story. Oh you, and your crazy hijinks. He fought Spectre silly.

No you didn't. You said that AM was weaker than LT because he could be weakened. You said LT can't be weakened.
Monsieur, please.

Different? You're logic is concrete, and anything going against it is 'different'? Eh (that's Canadian)?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Oh you, and your crazy hijinks. He fought Spectre silly.

No you didn't. You said that AM was weaker than LT because he could be weakened. You said LT can't be weakened.
Monsieur, please.

Different? The Spectre wasnt more powerful than him in this story.

Lt has never been weakened on panel. Although I could be wrong but if you have a scan proving this Ill concede right now.

Otherwise the Lt has been beaten but didnt run out of power during the conflict against Thanos in the end.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The Spectre wasnt more powerful than him in this story.

Lt has never been weakened on panel. Although I could be wrong but if you have a scan proving this Ill concede right now.

Otherwise the Lt has been beaten but didnt run out of power during the conflict against Thanos in the end. Oh... kay...


I never said that... I said that beings far surpassing LT have been weakened on-panel. winkiss

But if beings far superior to LT burn themselves out fighting, doesn't this make you... wrong? Come on, let's hear it, rather than your annoying dodging.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

He weakened himself (which means he can be weakened... heh)...
But only by himself, which imo, doesn't really count.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

he got his power stolen by Doom...
Not any Doom in existence though.

A Doom Beyonder plucked from a non-existent future, (616 Doom was dead)
coerced (unconsciously) by Beyonder into taking much of his power.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Beyonder's Bane would have proved to be his bane...
There's no proof of any kind that Beyonder's bane would've even scratched him.

In fact,
considering that the entire Marvel Reality was millions of times weaker than Beyonder,
I'll sure Beyonder's bane was a pointless ploy on Mephisto's part.

Meh, Mephisto himself had no idea if it'd work or not,
even the Living Tribunal literally trembled in fear at what Beyonder would do,
at the thought of it not working.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Molecule Man was weakened after fighting him (and MM is over LT, so...)...


I agree, characters can be weakened if they battle more powerful opponents.

Especially one that transacts on levels unimaginable to you.

I always figured that Beyonder didn't want to really kill or erased Marvel,
this is probably why he faked his death in the end,
he had had enough of Marvel,
and wanted to return to the Beyond Realm to peace again.

This is why Beyonder was upset even in the retcon
when Doom and the FF visited his Universe.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

used up much of his power dealing with Death... etc.
Much of the power he limited himself to, I agree.

But Death
and everything else in Marvel
were nothing but microbes to Beyonder's true power. (meaning without limitations)
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Either way you slice it, your logic absolutely fails to levels ova 9000!!!
That's not my debate.

Just wanted to clear up those facts about Beyonder.

To Mr. Slippyfist,

Please stop talking like a know-it-all smartas*.

LT w/ THOTU and IG.

The whole Omniverse will be wiped out.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Oh... kay...


I never said that... I said that beings far surpassing LT have been weakened on-panel. winkiss

But if beings far superior to LT burn themselves out fighting, doesn't this make you... wrong? Come on, let's hear it, rather than your annoying dodging. I am not dodging. I always said more powerful beings can beat less powerful beings.


Master schooled you on the Beyonder I see in vivid detail.

The difference here is all your examples were weakened when fighting more powerful beings while the Am was weakened by far less powerful beings. More than likely due to the fact he was amped in the first place and that on his own he was nowhere near this powerful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But only by himself, which imo, doesn't really count.

Not any Doom in existence though.

A Doom Beyonder plucked from a non-existent future, (616 Doom was dead)
coerced (unconsciously) by Beyonder into taking much of his power.

There's no proof of any kind that Beyonder's bane would've even scratched him.

In fact,
considering that the entire Marvel Reality was millions of times weaker than Beyonder,
I'll sure Beyonder's bane was a pointless ploy on Mephisto's part.

Meh, Mephisto himself had no idea if it'd work or not,
even the Living Tribunal literally trembled in fear at what Beyonder would do,
at the thought of it not working.



I agree, characters can be weakened if they battle more powerful opponents.

Especially one that transacts on levels unimaginable to you.

I always figured that Beyonder didn't want to really kill or erased Marvel,
this is probably why he faked his death in the end,
he had had enough of Marvel,
and wanted to return to the Beyond Realm to peace again.

This is why Beyonder was upset even in the retcon
when Doom and the FF visited his Universe.

Much of the power he limited himself to, I agree.

But Death
and everything else in Marvel
were nothing but microbes to Beyonder's true power. (meaning without limitations)

That's not my debate.

Just wanted to clear up those facts about Beyonder. This whole post is completely meaningless to anything I was trying to get across to Quan... so I don't even know why you posted... but...

Weakened.

---

Doom. Doom still used 616 Galactus's tech, so I don't even know why that's even a point.

---

Perhaps, but off of memory there was a piece of Beyonder's power being used to figure out the effects, etc. Off memory.

His power level doesn't imply it's not going to work...
What does, is the fact that the goal wasn't reached.

---

That has nothing to do with anything I was trying to say.

---

The power he was limited to still above LT... was it not?

And if it wasn't, it was his full power... so please, enough of trying to beef up Beyonder, because I am far from trying to disrespect him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not dodging. I always said more powerful beings can beat less powerful beings.


Master schooled you on the Beyonder I see in vivid detail.

The difference here is all your examples were weakened when fighting more powerful beings while the Am was weakened by far less powerful beings. More than likely due to the fact he was amped in the first place and that on his own he was nowhere near this powerful.


That's not the point and you know it. It's that people above LT have been weakened in fights.

He schooled me in what... unneeded context? Fine, he schooled me... you didn't.
Anyway, thanks for trolling me.

That's irrelevant. You said that LT can't be weakened before, and AM was weaker because he could get weakened.

Plus, AM was only weakened once... and that was by Spectre, and all of the most powerful beings in DC funneling energy into him. Srsly.

Him being amped means as much as the color of my boxers right now. Do you bring this up when you argue about Thanos with the HOTU?

According to "Marvel 1985" #1 , Doom killed Beyonder:

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6766/doom1sz5.th.jpg


That is all.

How did this turn into anything resembling a Beyonder debate?

That's not what I was trying to do...

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Weakened.
Weakened, himself ... you mean, which I agree.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

This whole post is completely meaningless to anything I was trying to get across to Quan...
so I don't even know why you posted... but...
I was only clearing up some misleading info (an honest mistake) concerning Beyonder.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Doom. Doom still used 616 Galactus's tech,
so I don't even know why that's even a point.
The tech is not what got the job done though,
it was Beyonder's unconscious desire to give lesser beings whatever they wanted:

Including that Doom from a non-existent future.

The tech, seems to just be an excuse to give Doom what he wanted.


Then again, I must admit B, anyone would be confused with this,
including myself, (in fact, I only saw it differently after I noticed Owen clearing the issue up)
because the doedoe heads at Marvel
didn't tell us this until after Secret Wars II had ended.

http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/7288/becc8.th.jpg
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

His power level doesn't imply it's not going to work...
What does, is the fact that the goal wasn't reached.
The other fact is,
that there is no proof of any kind to suggest it would've worked.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

So... what you're saying is that LT can be weakened by blasts, and strategy?
If his opponent is more powerful than him?

Absolutely, I agree with you.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

Because that's why it was posted... that entire post you quoted.
I didn't try to debate that part of yall's debate,
I only wanted to clear up those specific Beyonder facts you pointed out.

I know you had a point with quan,
but B, if we're not precise on the info we post,
we'll confuse innocent onlookers who don't know the exact facts.

I thought I was being helpful, forgive me.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

The power he was limited to still above LT... was it not?


Let's not forget though,
even if Beyonder brought down his power to 1%,
it'd still be above the LT's.

ie.

Just putting Beyonder's power at a single Million times that of the Marvelverse,
at 1% ... Beyonder would still be 10,000 times
more powerful than all of Marvel combined.

Yet, we know Beyonder was MillionS times more powerful.

Ouch.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist

so please, enough of trying to beef up Beyonder,

because I am far from trying to disrespect him.
I never said you were friend,
but you know my thing is to inform posters about the stuff I know,
that's all I did, and I did it with a cool tone while being respectful

You know there's no animosity between us true debater.

Originally posted by Galan007

According to "Marvel 1985" #1

,

Doom killed Beyonder:
Which is false.

Beyonder was never killed at any time during Secret Wars I or II,
and Beyonder is still around to this day, cementing the falsehood of the statement.

Plus, we don't even know if "Marvel 1985" is even part of continuity yet.

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
This whole post is completely meaningless to anything I was trying to get across to Quan... so I don't even know why you posted... but...

Weakened.

---

Doom. Doom still used 616 Galactus's tech, so I don't even know why that's even a point.

---

Perhaps, but off of memory there was a piece of Beyonder's power being used to figure out the effects, etc. Off memory.

His power level doesn't imply it's not going to work...
What does, is the fact that the goal wasn't reached.

---

That has nothing to do with anything I was trying to say.

---

The power he was limited to still above LT... was it not?

And if it wasn't, it was his full power... so please, enough of trying to beef up Beyonder, because I am far from trying to disrespect him.

That's not the point and you know it. It's that people above LT have been weakened in fights.

He schooled me in what... unneeded context? Fine, he schooled me... you didn't.
Anyway, thanks for trolling me.

That's irrelevant. You said that LT can't be weakened before, and AM was weaker because he could get weakened.

Plus, AM was only weakened once... and that was by Spectre, and all of the most powerful beings in DC funneling energy into him. Srsly.

Him being amped means as much as the color of my boxers right now. Do you bring this up when you argue about Thanos with the HOTU? Mr Master schooled you because he had the scans and I didnt.

I responded to you. I was respectful when I disagreed with you as well and didnt degrade you in any way which I cant say the same for you.

I always figured you as a whitey tighty kind of guy.


The Am was weakened three times at least by my count. By the Spectre,by Ds's tech along with Luthor, and the star. Seriously he wasnt just weakened by the Spectre alone.

Thanos with the heart was supreme and can not lose with the heart. So go ahead and bring up what you will.