Who is the worst Traitor?

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katelovespirate
So, a huge theme in these films is betrayal--- obviously. confused Who betrays who for what reason, etc. My question is, when you take out the obvious "well he's the villian so he's the worst" who actually commits the most (or worst) betrayals? When you take into account that everyone has different complicated motives and excuses, Who is the worst traitor?

I figured we could look at this analytically, on a standardized point system.

1: minor betrayal (telling a small lie, etc) embarrasment
2: regular betrayal (telling a bigger lie, using someone)
3: materialistic betrayal (stealing a large amount of property, ship, etc)
4: substantial betrayal (leaving or cheating on a lover, etc) mad
5: major betrayal (selling someone else's soul, etc)
redemption:
-2: reversing the effects of a betrayal big grin

I'll start with the character of Will: he basically does nothing wrong, except for in the first movie when he whacks Jack with the oar, and then tells Gibbs "he fell behind". so we'll give him a 2 and say, he's obviously not the worst traitor!

Mišt
I don't think Will is really a traitor..confused I get what you're saying, but to me he just seems misinformed of the bigger picture most of the time. Like when he wants to get Davey Jones' heart and fights the other two, by rights Jack has the best motive, because from my pov, he can free everyone and everything, whereas Will didn't see that and only saw it as a selfish gain, so he 'betrayed' Jack by fighting him, and Norrington only wants it for personal gain.

Again with the first movie, from the looks of it Jack had some sort of plan worked out, it didnt look like he actually wanted to sell Will out and let him die, but Will couldn't see the bigger picture...once Barbossa is mortal, Jack could kill him.

I can see him doing something stupid in the next one over Elizabeth's kiss with Jack, in the bigger picture she was using it as a diversion to lock Jack up and save everyone else, whereas all Will saw it as was a cheating thing. You can see it when he looks at her later in Tia Dalma's house.

I'd rate him as a misinformed, 'accidental' betrayer.

spencerspider
Jack kinda betrays people. Barbossa really lied to Jack and betrayed him so maybe him..

jessigem
how bout we give jack a 3/4 for the 1st movie and definite 5 for the 2nd.
and i think barbossa deserves a 3, for the mutiny of the cap'n

katelovespirate
i give liz a 2 in the first, for using norrington to save will. she def. gets a 5 for the next, even though the kiss was hott.

danny_v
I agree with liz having a 5 betrayal in the second movie, because that must have torn will apart.

jessigem
if it tore will apart then she only gets a 4. she didn't sell jack's soul, she just used it to save everyone else's lives. which also gives her a -2 which means she only has a 2. put together with the first movie: 2+2=4. so i guess she gets a 4...erm

danny_v
i guess your right if u put it like that.

jessigem
laughing out loud

pinkfloydkor
Originally posted by jessigem
if it tore will apart then she only gets a 4. she didn't sell jack's soul, she just used it to save everyone else's lives. which also gives her a -2 which means she only has a 2. put together with the first movie: 2+2=4. so i guess she gets a 4...erm

no expression

katelovespirate
norrington gets off scot free in the first one, no betrayals there. second movie, i'm giving him a 3 for stealing the heart, plus another 3 for stealing the letters of marque, plus another 2 for lying about his herioc action to take the chest and let them get away. that's an 8. no redemption yet for him. we'll see about no. 3...

jessigem
i think he'll get a 5 in no.3 stick out tongue

danny_v
i really dont like norrington all that much. hes really evil! devil

jessigem
i hate norrington. the only thing i like about him is...... huh
umm.................the fact that he took off his wig!!! i remember.
eek! powdery wigs are weird wacko

spencerspider
i despise norrington

pinkfloydkor
yea, hes annoying

spencerspider
and stupid... he better get eaten by kraken or shot through the heart

jessigem
he'll probably get shot through the heart by the cutler/lord when he gives him the heart(like the evil ppl always shoot the snitch in movies)

spencerspider
lol yea i think norrington will turn good, or be killed by another bad guy

jessigem
ditto happy

spencerspider
huh? lol

jessigem
wait, that's my phrase big grin

spencerspider
lol o k

jessigem
it is. see it under my name? i say it all the time. big grin

Mĺdness
no expression HuH?

spencerspider
huh? where did u come from lol *looks behind me*

jessigem
sees a ninja ninja
runs and hides blink

katelovespirate
yay for taking off the wig. let's just call him the worst snitch/pissed off ex-fiance (will might vie for that spot)

i didnt even want to think about jack, because to figure out his score would be doing some actual math...

Mišt

jessigem
you could put in your own contribution big grin where i live it was late and i was bored.

laughing out loud i'd start and then lose track of what i already counted or subtracted. he did so many bad things but then the bad thing he did would lead to a good thing.....it's just too much messed

spencerspider
not much to talk about mist... and y did u pick on me u put 2 of mine on there... and i dont know words 6 letter long

katelovespirate
so then we all had some rum and got along happily ever after

jessigem
yay!! eek!
i'm surprised mist didn't put any of mine up. i think i was the one who started all this nonsense confused

spencerspider
lol me and u, well u did nm lol

jessigem
laughing out loud i just read where you wrote that you don't know words that are six letter long. mist said te longest sentence was six characters long. i think he was talking about words, maybe? huh

Leggy_n_Merry
How come no one likes Norrington? sad Didn't anyone feel sorry for him in the Curse of the Black Pearl when Elizabeth said her heart truly lied with Will? His face.. bless him. She used him; the stupid b*tch! That really annoys me!! That's the main reason why I hate her so much. And yet he was still really nice about it in the end which was a very nice thing to do. And in Dead Man's Chest when he saw Will and Elizabeth kiss. I've said this in another thread but oh well. Poor, poor Norrington sad Well at least I love him anyway..

I think Elizabeth should get a 4 for the Curse of the Black Pearl because number four states "substantial betrayal (leaving or cheating on a lover, etc)" and she used Norrington by promising him marriage, so she was giving him false hope (which is just the worst thing ever), to save the man she loved which is just so selfish.. and it says "etc" so that fits in there with me yes

katelovespirate
yeah maybe we should just vote liz and jack the worst traitors now and be done with it. cause jack redeems himself a lot but liz keeps betraying fiances.

jessigem
laughing out loud you're right.
i did feel bad for norrington. especially in the dead man's chest when will came out of the water all dramatically and kissed liz. his face was so dissapointed....i wanted to hug him....but i'll never forget how he acted in the 1st movie when he said "You have got to be the worst pirate ive ever seen" and he was questioning jack's piratehood. so he's just a stuck-up snob to me. always has been, always will be. no expression

katelovespirate
yeah i agree. he looks better all scruffy, but still... i stay on jack's side of things. isn't it funny how disloyal, unpredictable people seem to inspire the most loyalty in others?
i bet will is regreting his whole "jack is a good man worth rescuing" moment in the 1st movie. hehehe.

jessigem
and his whole "gotta find jack to save my lover" in the 2nd movie.

Mĺdness
heh, true laughing out loud

Since I can't do math, I'll just put the people in the order of who I think is the worst tratior, not taking into account any good deeds done in the film.

Elizabeth: She goes from one man to the other. Damn it girl, try and resist kissing every leading man in the movie! blink Major points for kissing Jack only to chain him to his ship. Ugh, I definatly think she should be first or second for that. mad

Jack: I'd hate to say it, but I had trouble placing this guy first, second or third, so I put him second because Elizabeth really lost all love from me. *glares at Elizabeth* He used Will to pay off his debt to Davey Jones, so that's not good. He said he didn't feel any remorse, so that is also not good. sad Definatly not the greatest tratior in my book, but he was using a friend of his (or at least a son of his friend) to repay a debt. Definatly not good.

Norrington: Nothing much, but he DID take the heart of Davey Jones and gave it to the EIC, after stealing it from Jack's jar of dirt. Definate points for that, because NOBODY steals anything from Jack's jar of dirt! mad

Pintel and Ragitti: These guys stole the chest, but Elizabeth stopped them. Well, no harm really done, since nothing was inside of it for them after all of that. laughing They also tried to steal the Black Pearl, but then lied and said that they came to join the crew. Nothing big compared to previous persons.

The monkey: Hey, the little critter stole the drawing of a Davey Jones' key from Jack. He has to get some points for that!

Will: I don't know why I'm talking about Will, since he really didn't do anything deceiving, unless you count attempting to open Davey Jones' chest to stab his heart. Then again, he was trying to save his father. Eh, I'll just say he did nothing. no expression

DRAKONS
Number 4 is our foe

jessigem
number 4 is pintel and ragetti.....do you mean norrington?
cuz i vote norrington's our foe.

pinkfloydkor
most def, Norrington is anoyying. He tried to pull lame crap on liz, and he disses Jack every chance he gets

jessigem
yep. the only reason i don't wish he was dead is because he gets my sympathy from the whole liz-kissing-everyone-but-him situation.

pinkfloydkor
tru, but that lying bastard stole the heart, so hes not gettin any sympathy frome me

jessigem
yea, he stole the heart. but i think the only way i won't feel bad for him would be if he killed jack. but i guess if i really think about it, he kinda did kill jack because he stole the heart so jack had nothing in his jar of dirt.....

spencerspider
lol yep, he ruined jacks plan... that damn errr i could cuss him out so easy but i keep my head lol. damn jack better kill him

Mišt
Originally posted by jessigem
you could put in your own contribution big grin where i live it was late and i was bored.


I did put mine in, see the first post in this thread? Seriously, if you are just bored and want to type stuff, go here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f61

Originally posted by spencerspider
not much to talk about mist... and y did u pick on me u put 2 of mine on there... and i dont know words 6 letter long

So...dont talk then? This thread actually has potential for discussion, because from my pov, the characters aren't betraying each other on a one dimensional level like you all seem to be posting about....they each have their own reasons and half of them will probably affect the third movie.

And I picked out two of yours, because they were redundant. "lol ok" and "huh? lol" have nothing to do with anything, and dont contribute at all to the thread. Is there a POTC off topic thread here? Maybe use that instead of posting in these threads because you are bored.

jessigem
i apologize. i think it was me who started the whole random thing. but i agree, they aren't just betraying each other on a 1-dimesional level. it has more meaning than that....but i can't find the right word to describe it. and as for going to the off topic forum thing, that's no fun, because then it's ON topic to be OFF topic. and it'll get boring. but im in serious mode right now. so go ahead.....fire away. no expression

katelovespirate
gosh, its better than real life, so not one dismensional. but like politics, i doubt we will ever agree on each character's "secret reasons" for doing everything. i mean, lol, Elizabeth is a girl, so her "secret reasons" change about every 4 seconds, depending on her mood. Will seems to be pretty straight forward, no one can figure Jack out except he is hott and noble deep down, oh gee...
Here's one thing i wonder about: Gov. Swann... He seems to change about quite a bit. We know he is ultimately loyal to Liz- but not her happiness, just her safety. He isnt that phased when she switches from Nor. to Will, but he also isn't phased to condemn him to death several times. So what is he going to have to do for the EITC?

DRAKONS
Ok so we whote for norington.Going once

DRAKONS
Going twice

DRAKONS
sold to number four

jessigem
clapping

DRAKONS
Yea number four wins!!! dance

jessigem
wait wait....i thought i already said ragetti and pintel?!
you think they're the worst traitors?!! messed

DRAKONS
Well they aren realy good 2.They tried to steel the Pearl and box.When they were atacked by Jones men they fled leving Elizabe t fighting alone so...

jessigem
but ragetti is so coooooooool. and i feel sorry for him because he never got rich enough to buy his glass eye.
i still vote jack or norrington as the worst traitor. except i like jack so my votes norry.

#1potcfan
jack...obviously, he lies way too much

katelovespirate
i think jack would be really hurt and offended if he didnt get voted "worst traitor". unless his honest streak is winning out

katelovespirate
BETRAYED WITH A KISS...
no relevance, just thought it sounded cool hhehehe

jessigem
it does kinda go with the topic though, that's one more thing to add onto jacks list: he kept hinting that he likes elizabeth and wanted to kiss her on the ship when they were talking about similarities, even though he knows orlando loves liz. i guess it's not REALLY cheating, but it should still count. he betrayed wills trust in him that he wouldn't make a move on liz. no expression

DRAKONS
Betrayal hang naughty

jessigem
Happy Dance

DRAKONS
Happy Dance raygun
stupid starwars

katelovespirate
omgsh the smilies are multiplying like hangers in a closet

jessigem
laughing out loud
your hangers multiply? mine seem to dissapear....i think somebody's stealing them shifty

DRAKONS
Muhuhuhaah banned
giljotiini jesterhorseking

jessigem
psch. someones getting crazy with the smilies.... no expression

DRAKONS
Bye bye
starwars

katelovespirate
so here are my question(s)
1. if tia dalma knew there was a way to bring jack back, why didnt she suggest it right away?
2. why on earth would Will suggest "if there was something to be done to bring Jack back?" Will is just your average guy who thinks death is final, right? So what would cause him to say that/???

jessigem
i think will suggested that about jack because he was testing liz to see if she really loved jack instead of him. and then tia dalma jumped in and asked all of them if they would like jack back because she saw what will was trying to do. and maybe she didn't mention it before because she wasn't sure if they all REALLY wanted jack back or not, because he kinda betrayed all of them and if it wasn't for liz chaining him up they all would have died. no offense to jack or anything..... happy

DRAKONS
Well how coud he not rmember well i call ir truel its like a duel only three dudes fighting each for himself

jessigem
? could you type that again please blink

DRAKONS
I mean he wanted the chest for diferent things while will to save his father from Jones

jessigem
oh.

LovelyOne
I have a strong feeling its going to be Tia.

Or will is going to to something..He's the only one who hasn't yet..

jessigem
true. true.no expression

JohnnyBloom
Originally posted by katelovespirate
so here are my question(s)
1. if tia dalma knew there was a way to bring jack back, why didnt she suggest it right away?
2. why on earth would Will suggest "if there was something to be done to bring Jack back?" Will is just your average guy who thinks death is final, right? So what would cause him to say that/???

for number one - my GUESS its not really her place to tell them all to go and save/rescue jack if shes just going to sit in her little hut in the middle of a jungle and play safe whilst they go to the end of the world, but if they offer to then she can help them along the way.
it seems to me that shes not really a character for helping them to get jack back, just to push them in the right direction.

for number two - i think he wanted to trick liz into saying "i love jack and would do anything to bring him back" ... cos he said it just after hed looked at keira and she was all teary eyed, and you've got to remember he hasnt confronted her about that kiss yet ...
i dont think he expected tia to come up with a way to get him back, he just wanted to see liz's reaction, in the end tho he got lucky and now they can try and get jack back.

jessigem
that's exactly what i said. almost word for word. you just made it a little more simple. big grin

LiL nAstY GirL
I don't think Elizabeth's betrayal was as bad as Jacks. I mean yeah she betrayed Will, but she did so to save their lives. Jack did things for his own gain

katelovespirate
IMO, jack didnt betray anyone. people just keep messing up his bargaining plans.

jessigem
yep. he's the numero uno traitor. unless norrington does something worse. because if you think a bout it, he sold EVERYBODY'S soul to jones when he gave that heart to the evil cutler.

katelovespirate
yeah so far norrington gets it in my book cause he is irritating

jessigem
and now he's gunna go and start wearing that stupid wig again.

willofthewisp
Bah to the wig! Bah!
Jack is technically the biggest traitor. He owes Will and Liz his life and he rewards them by selling Will's soul for him. That's pretty traitorous if you ask me.

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