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1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus.

Parts of your list confuse me... like where Maul, Assaj, and Depa are placed on the list.

Why is Asajj over Yoda, Mace and Palpaine?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus.

What the hell?

And hwo come Rotj Vader isn't on here?

Well you can't have two forms of the same person.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus. That's a strange list.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Parts of your list confuse me... like where Maul, Assaj, and Depa are placed on the list.

Maul was only 24 in TPM and could own pretty much every jedi master at the time with the exception of Dooku and Yoda.

Depa Billaba was the youngest person to ever join the council with the exception of Anakin. She would have surpassed Mace and Yoda at her peak.

Assaj was incredibly gifted and she too like Maul was in her 20s.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Maul was only 24 in TPM and could own pretty much every jedi master at the time with the exception of Dooku and Yoda.

Depa Billaba was the youngest person to ever join the council with the exception of Anakin. She would have surpassed Mace and Yoda at her peak.

Assaj was incredibly gifted and she too like Maul was in her 20s.


And Mace, and Obiwan, and Sidious, etc....

Your list is weird.. Top 3 should be Anakin, Luke, and Yoda..

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus.

That a question or statement open to criticism?

But really, do you have anything else to do?

Originally posted by exanda kane
That a question or statement open to criticism?

But really, do you have anything else to do? It's open to criticism, I believe.

Of course.

Originally posted by exanda kane
But really, do you have anything else to do?

Please explain what you mean?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus.

Shouldn't Yoda, Palpatine, and Mace be over Maul, Assaj, and Depa?

Depa was the youngest person ever to be elected to the council at her time, and I suppose the youngest person ever to be elected and be awarded the rank of master at the same time. She was extremely strong in the force for her age, she has constantly displayed this and would have clearly surpassed Mace, Yoda and Palpatine in terms of force power.

Maul was only 24 when he tooled Qui-Gon (one of the most powerful msters at the time), badly and he did the same to Anoon Bondara earlier. If he had lived until ROTS, with that 13 years more experience he would definitely have surpassed the big 3, and I can confidently say that.

Assaj is just my opinion.

I can understand what you mean with Maul but i tink where you put Assaj is odd.

Assaj has huge potential. Obi-Wan even comments on how she could have had a very similar path to Anakin (if she had been a jedi) and compares them constantly.

Nebaris, you have good reasons to support your list.

Depa was very young to be inducted into the council, but she got mad later on.

The Skywalker family has the gift of the Force within from day one.

I would like to draw attention on how you rank Mace and Yoda though.
Mace Windu is known by many as the most dangerous man alive during his time. Notice he's the most dangerous "man" and not alien which leaves Yoda in line. Mace is perhaps second only to Yoda as a swordsman. Mace's force powers were over-exaggerated in the Clone Wars mini-series but it shows us the magnificent extent of his powers and his deadly capabilities.

Although Samuel L. Jackson requested a purple lightsaber from Lucas, it really ties him to his Vaapad fighting form which leans close to the dark side of the force. That is why Mace has always been "at an edge" kinda Jedi.

Yay, someone agrees.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
1. PT Anakin Skywalker.
2. Luke Skywalker.
3. Princess Leia Organa Solo.
4. Darth Maul.
5. Assaj Ventress.
6. Depa Billaba.
7. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
8. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
9. Mace Windu/Master Yoda/Darth Sidious.
10. Darth Tyranus.

Good list. I'd put Obi-Wan at 7 though, followed by Mace Windu, then Tyranus/Sidious, and whoever doesn't get 9, gets 10.

You guys would have to look of it outside of what was displayed in the movies for that list to make sense.

Maul was able to kill Qui-Gon, who was considered to be on par with TPM Mace Windu - imagine twenty years later. Asajj...showed power (CW, comics), and it's likely she could've only gotten better considering her age. Depa was somewhat young, and Yoda acknowledges that only Mace Windu could take her down (or something like that).

Yoda had 900 years to tap into his true Force potential, yet he could only stalemate Sidious (or rather couldn't defeat him, regardless of the circumstances). Nine hundred years. Force potential is just that, it's not power.

Interesting choice>I like the way you did your research and how you give meaning to your choices.
Though, I do not agree with all...(no need for explaining my choices).

People, what Nebaris is talking about is "Force Potential">>>the potency of becoming a headstrong and powerful jedi/sith from young age.
You could say the same thing about Windu or Yoda from a young age point of view.
Make a list and take it 50 years into the past!

1.Windu
2.Qui Gon
3...etc.....
4......etc

Ehh, somewhat old thread (not really even close to what some people bump), but I need to say that Darth Maul should not be at 4, maybe not on the list at all. In TPM, Darth Maul had already reached his full potential, he was not getting any stronger after that.

Where did you get that info then?

Originally posted by kamikz
Where did you get that info then?

z0mg!!!//!!!11

I f*cking made it up! I'm a liar! It was all just an elaborate ruse!

Just kidding, of course.

I got the information from Star Wars: The Phantom Menace novelization, written by Terry Brooks. It says "Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."

Given it says that he wasn't to get any better ever, and his powers reached their highest peak (apex), I'm inclined to believe it. So, it would mean that Sidious, Yoda, Mace, Depa, and Tyranus would all be in front of him, since they are all more powerful than TPM Maul (and yes, in this case power = potential).

I don't believe that. Maul was only 24, he could have only gotten better. I just don't trust novelisations anymore.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I don't believe that. Maul was only 24, he could have only gotten better. I just don't trust novelisations anymore.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

As absurd as it sounds, it's written in a canon source, and there's nothing that contradicts it. I don't like the way it sounds either, but it is canon, and I don't argue with that.

What page is it on?

IDK.

I got it from the internet novelization, check swtimeline, go to The Phantom Menace novel, and press CTRL+F and search "apex". It's in Chapter 21.

'"Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."'

Coming to think about it, this quote really doesn't mean anything; a warrior in his prime - the best he has ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration), never to be any better - he would never get any better (because he would soon die), his powers at their apex - his powers at the highest point that they have ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration). This really doesn't actually say that he reached full potential. I'm actually surprised I didn't already notice it.

You know, there is such a thing as being concise. And you're wrong. I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you to prove that.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Coming to think about it, this quote really doesn't mean anything; Another round of shit? Whoop-dii-f*cking-doo.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
a warrior in his prime - the best he has ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, '"Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."'
That quote is saying that Darth Maul as of that point could not become stronger because he was at the top of his game not because he'd die soon.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration), never to be any better - he would never get any better (because he would soon die), his powers at their apex - his powers at the highest point that they have ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration). This really doesn't actually say that he reached full potential. His death is not to be taken into consideration because it speaks of present tense, not to allude as to his death. Advent's handled this point, I feel no need to repeat the definitions for you; which I've memorized.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I'm actually surprised I didn't already notice it. http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/LordSaboteur/ClieggLars2.jpg
"Your argument is dead, son, just accept it."

Originally posted by Sith'ari
You know, there is such a thing as being concise. And you're wrong. I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you to prove that.

You are truly the epitome of idiocy. I reserved that title for Medvock, I believe, but I'll have to force him to pass the crown to you. I just proved you wrong, so how can I be wrong? Check your spectacles, my friend, you were completely destroyed and pwned by facts, logic, and everything in between.

You're saying that I'm wrong, but you cannot disprove the dictionary, you cannot disprove canon, you cannot disprove facts. Simple as that, if I were wrong, you would be debating heavily. When we had the disagreement about Crado, who is a minor speck, and doesn't matter at all, you went into a full-blown debate.

I pwned you, Saboteur pwned you, the dictionary pwned you, but I'm wrong? Lol. Sorry, son, you just got your ass handed to you.

Whatever guys, I just PMd Ush, and hopefully he will be able to give us some insight on the matter.

What does Ush have to do with anything? I just whooped your ass.

And, I doubt he's stupid enough to argue with the dictionary. And if he is - if he goes the route you did - I'll be forced to own him (and no, Ush, don't take that offensively), but it's highly doubtful he'd do that.

Originally posted by Advent
What does Ush have to do with anything? I just whooped your ass.

And, I doubt he's stupid enough to argue with the dictionary. And if he is - if he goes the route you did - I'll be forced to own him (and no, Ush, don't take that offensively), but it's highly doubtful he'd do that.

Ush is leagues above any of the SW debaters. You would never be able to own him, so please don't be silly. And what does he have to do with anything? Well I'm pretty sure that he's an English professor, while English isn't even your first language (I presume), and seeing as how your whole argument is dependant on your interpretation of the English Language, if he disagrees with you, that's all I need.

I think it should be pointed out that the passage almost certainly refers to Maul's physique, not his skill or force power.

It is, of course, a central tenet of Star Wars that these are things that improve into old age, so long as you keep them up. Else the passage simply makes no sense. When you describe someone as being at their peak like that, it is meant physically.

Besides, the passage was only there to show QGJ's thoughts- that before him was a damn fine warrior. It is not a categorical and undeniable God-given statement that Maul could never improve, which is obviously silly.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I think it should be pointed out that the passage almost certainly refers to Maul's physique, not his skill or force power.

His powers are at their apex. Powers is plural, it wouldn't mean "physique", and given it says "A warrior in his prime", it has no indicaton of "physique". How do you even gather that out of the statement?

'A Warrior in his prime' means physically. Sorry, that's actually pretty obvious.

I am afraid the sentence is worthless in any other interpretation because it is plainly not true in the Star Wars universe that your powers cannot improve into old age, nor could QGJ definitvely declare that even if that was his intent.

Erm...? lol?

Also, 'apex' most likely means, in this context, 'point of culmination'. Maul is a complete Sith Warrior, trained for this moment. That doesn't mean he will never be better than that moment. That is not what culmination means.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Besides, the passage was only there to show QGJ's thoughts- that before him was a damn fine warrior. It is not a categorical and undeniable God-given statement that Maul could never improve, which is obviously silly.

It's the narrator describing him, it doesn't say "Qui-Gon thinks" or "Qui-Gon surmises". It says "Darth Maul a warrior in his prime - never to get any better - his powers at their apex". How does that reflect Qui-Gon's thoughts? Why would Qui-Gon think Maul couldn't get any better, and better yet - how would he even know Maul was at his peak? And peak is not used to described their physical body. Are you serious?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
'A Warrior in his prime' means physically. Sorry, that's actually pretty obvious.

How about you tell me how it's supposedly "obvious"? Where in the hell is physique even mentioned? It says "his powers" which are plural, not "his physique".

Furthermore, a "Warrior in his prime" means just that, a warrior at his best.



Qui-Gon didn't even think it! It was the narrator describing Maul, not Qui-Gon.

As well, how do you know when Maul would reach his peak? Do you know if Exar Kun reached his peak in TOTJ? No? There's nothing to contradict it.

Sorry, I have to strongly disagree about that being narration- it is clearly QGJ's point of view.

"Where in the hell is physique even mentioned"

Because when you say someone is in their 'prime' that is what you mean. Simple English.

Sorry, but to interpret that paragraph as meaning that Maul could never ever get any better is pretty silly.

'It's the narrator describing him, it doesn't say "Qui-Gon thinks" or "Qui-Gon surmises".'

I just read the passage, and the author is clearly indirectly stating Qui-Gon's thoughts at the time.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, I have to strongly disagree about that being narration- it is clearly QGJ's point of view.

Did you even read the TPM novel? The narrator describes Maul as such, Qui-Gon's thoughts were ALREADY ESTABLISHED. The narrator, not QGJ, describes Maul.

And furthermore, how the hell would Qui-Gon know Maul won't get any better? That he's at the peak of his power? Etc.

Qui-Gon doesn't even know if Maul could get more muscle mass or not!



Simple english?

The earliest hours of the day; dawn.
The first season of the year; spring.
The age of ideal physical perfection and intellectual vigor.
The period or phase of ideal or peak condition. See Synonyms at bloom1.

It can mean either physique or peak condition, i.e. best.

The thesaurus also points this out:

Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best






Sorry, but to argue with the dictionary is silly. I don't care if you're a mod or not, it doesn't mean you're right.

Hey, Nebaris, does this look like "indirectly QGJ's thoughts"?

Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win.

How the hell would QGJ know this shit? It's the narration describing why Maul is doing this as when it says "driven by messianic hatred".

I am, however, a Degree trained English teacher other than being a mod, and so I can rather cast down your use of the dictionary as being inept.

Sorry, but when you describe someone as being at their prime, you mean physically, that is just how the term is used.

it is rather silly to try and talk about things like 'peaks' when Maul has no 'after' this point for there to be a downslope to describe a peak by, of course.

Yes, I have read the novel, and I find your interpretation fatuous.

But let's cut to the chase here. Unless you are trying to make up some mental deficiency in Maul, there is absolutely not the slightest reason why he couldn't have improved further. So whatever you want to do, the passage has to be interpreted in that light, or it is simply contradicting film canon about the development of force users.

So either way, it is useless to try and use it the way you are.

Maul could have improved. Pretty obvious, really.

So, when I say "Jet Li was making good movies in the 1980's, it was his prime", am I talking about physically? No.

On top of that, there isn't just one definition for "prime", as you seem to be implying.



You're a "degree trained English teacher", so can you tell me what in the hell a "cahse" is?



This doesn't make sense then.

If Maul was at his physical perfection in TPM, is it impossible for him to gain more muscle mass? Or become stronger physically?

If Maul worked out more heavily, he'd become greater than that point, that is common knowledge, so how does your description make sense then?

Yes, I would say it was a very safe statement that Maul was never going to be in better physical condition than he was in TPM. It is the kind of statement that people make all the time and only sheer pedantry would dispute it.


"Jet Li was making good movies in the 1980's, it was his prime",

Context. And that is your problem with dictionary use.


"so can you tell me what in the hell a "cahse" is?"

That is staggeringly feeble and says a lot about your mentality.


There are only two options left here. Either the passage refers to Maul's physique, or it is simply wrong. Choose either way, but it is no good to you.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, I would say it was a very safe statement that Maul was never going to be in better physical condition than he was in TPM.

Really? He's only 24 years old. Are you saying he can't get any more stronger? That's outright ridiculous considering how much Maul trains.



So, we can just say "It's safe to assume Maul won't get stronger despite still being young, and the fact he trains almost everyday"? Given what we know, Maul would be able to get physically stronger. So, you're descriptions are wrong - seeing as there isn't only one definition for the word "prime".




"A warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers (plural) in his apex". Powers is plural, when it says his "powers" - why the hell would we assume just his physique alone, when it outright says "powers". Adding to the fact it is highly illogical that Maul cannot get physically stronger, but as we know potential works in Star Wars: once you reach it, that is it.



Why? Because you want to parade around you're a "degree trained English teacher", but you can't even spell "chase" and/or use the spellcheck?



I'll choose Ushgarak is wrong for $500, Alex.

Eh, forget it. I surrender.

With just Ush? Because I for one would actually like to continue.

Now it is clear that prime or apex or whatever basically means the best or highest point, however you seem to be unable to comprehend that there are two interpretations that can be formed:

1. Maul had become the best he has ever been.

2. Maul had become the best he will ever be.

Now what seems more logical to you?

Originally posted by Sith'ari
With just Ush? Because I for one would actually like to continue.

Oh? You want to pick up the pieces after you let Ushgarak do all the work? Yeah, maybe another time.

Didn't you just say you didn't want to get into a debate?



So, suggestion #1: STFU. There is no number two.

I actually have the novelization sitting on my shelf in my closet, so I decided to dig it out and look this passage up (which is in chapter 22, btw).

And it's very clear from how the first 4-5 pages of that chapter are written that it is intended to be from Qui-Gon's point of view. It keeps going to what Qui-Gon is seeing, what he is doing, what he is thinking, etc.

I also would say it's very feasible that Maul had hit his peak, physically, at that point. Even the way he trained, it says that that moment had been what he had been training for - the chance to meet and fight a Jedi. However, all Force-users tend to get more powerful with the Force as they get older and practice, so I'd say it's safe to say that by peak they mean that that was the strongest overall he'd be, but (if he survived) as he got older, his physical strength would eventually start to weaken, though his strength in the Force would increase.

I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you =/ I do not want to get into a debate with you.

Originally posted by Lana
And it's very clear from how the first 4-5 pages of that chapter are written that it is intended to be from Qui-Gon's point of view. It keeps going to what Qui-Gon is seeing, what he is doing, what he is thinking, etc.

Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win.


How would Qui-Gon Jinn know Maul was at his highest peak of physical condition? And the first sentence is describing the fight from a narrative point of view. And, if you'll notice "It was an added bonus that he was able to engage the two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win".

The "He" is Maul, and is it descibing Maul's thoughts not from Jinn's point of view.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you =/ I do not want to get into a debate with you.

No, you just want to try to debate me after Ushgarak defeated me. Reason? There should be none since I was defeated by someone else on the point you attempted to argue.

'How would Qui-Gon Jinn know Maul was at his highest peak of physical condition?'

Perhaps it was an assumption...

'And the first sentence is describing the fight from a narrative point of view'

There's a writing technique, free indirect discourse (I think) where the narrator indirectly voices one of his character's feelings, this is clearly the case.

'No, you just want to try to debate me after Ushgarak defeated me. Reason? There should be none since I was defeated by someone else on the point you attempted to argue.'

No no. Ushgarak defeated you, but through a completely different way than the way that I was debating with you. I don't even care so much about debating the original point, just your wrong interpretations of the English dictionary and inability to understand the context of particular statements.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Perhaps it was an assumption...

Or perhaps it was the narration describing him, which it was.



Again, you miss the entire point. Read the passage, it goes further to say. "He...he...he...He.." as in Maul.



Firstly, that is exactly what Ushgarak did. That was how he defeated me. Unless you're talking about debating about me, to which I'd say, "no".

Whatever, until you can successfully refute this, you have lost.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'"Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."'

Coming to think about it, this quote really doesn't mean anything; a warrior in his prime - the best he has ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration), never to be any better - he would never get any better (because he would soon die), his powers at their apex - his powers at the highest point that they have ever been (not ever will be - even if it meant ever will be, that is because the fact that he would soon die is being taken into consideration). This really doesn't actually say that he reached full potential. I'm actually surprised I didn't already notice it.

Nebaris, you truly are an idiot. I refuted it, you didn't refute back except with a "ur wr0ng. 1m t3llin6 Ush64r4k!!11//!!!". And then Ushgarak refuted my response to you.

I already lost. But not to you, I lost to Ushgarak. You're using a nice, little tactic to seem as if you actually beat me, when anyone with half a brain knows Ushgarak did all the work. So, I say, there's NOTHING LEFT TO DEBATE, quit acting like there is. There is nothing left, there's nothing for me to prove wrong, you dolt.

I already said I lost, so how can I "lose"? You're an idiot. The point is: I lost to Ushgarak, not to you, so stop trying to act as if you did any work, and stop acting as if there's something for me to prove right, when Ushgarak (key) already proved me wrong.

Well Sama if it is from the narrators point of view then I guess it's pretty much set in stone. If it is Qui Gon's, then it can be interpreted either way.

okay this is how the list should go

1.Anakin Skywalker
2.Luke Skywalker
3.Yoda
4.mace windu
5.darth sidious
6.dooku
7.Obi-Wan
8.plo koon
9.darth maul
10.ki-adi mundi

Originally posted by DarthSidiouss
okay this is how the list should go

1.Anakin Skywalker
2.Luke Skywalker
3.Yoda
4.mace windu
5.darth sidious
6.dooku
7.Obi-Wan
8.plo koon
9.darth maul
10.ki-adi mundi

Why isn't Depa Billaba on the list, and why is Yoda at 3?

Originally posted by Advent
Yoda had 900 years to tap into his true Force potential, yet he could only stalemate Sidious (or rather couldn't defeat him, regardless of the circumstances). Nine hundred years. Force potential is just that, it's not power.

Depa would've only gotten better, given the way Yoda describes her, and what we know about her - she's already in the top 10 of the PT Era.

All this talk about force potential has got me all giddy. What's this about Yoda studying for 900 years and only being able to stalemate Sidious?

#1. That's just the point, force potential means jack shit for Jedi. They have these restraints and limits and nonsense, it's a wonder Yoda got to where he was. Only by NJO did the Jedi start doing what they were supposed to.. And I'm really tired so I doubt this makes any sense.
#2. As part of the darkside, and as powerful as Sidious was with no restraints, Sidious got beat when the fight was even. Yoda having 900 years of experience has nothing to do with him stalemating Sidious, it has to do with Sidious being the more intelligent of the two(unusual characteristic for sith), and Yoda being 20 lbs.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
All this talk about force potential has got me all giddy. What's this about Yoda studying for 900 years and only being able to stalemate Sidious?

#1. That's just the point, force potential means jack shit for Jedi. They have these restraints and limits and nonsense, it's a wonder Yoda got to where he was. Only by NJO did the Jedi start doing what they were supposed to.. And I'm really tired so I doubt this makes any sense.
#2. As part of the darkside, and as powerful as Sidious was with no restraints, Sidious got beat when the fight was even. Yoda having 900 years of experience has nothing to do with him stalemating Sidious, it has to do with Sidious being the more intelligent of the two(unusual characteristic for sith), and Yoda being 20 lbs.

That made no sense, but what I'm saying is Force potential is just that, it's potential. Yoda reached his potential in ROTS, and we know he won't become more powerful than that considering he had 900 years to do such. Sidious, however, didn't reach his potential. Depa didn't reach her potential. Asajj didn't.

We shouldn't put Yoda at the top of the list, or at least in front of even Sidious, because he's already reached the potential and he stalemated Sidious with it, while Sidious still grew stronger.

That probably didn't make sense either.

Eh are you sure ROTS Yoda was in his prime? I would like to see a young Yoda fight a young Sidious.. And I personally feel that ROTS Sidious reached his potential. It doesn't count much just because he got a younger body yet again. Then you'd have to make an argument for ROTS Yoda in a younger body, or hell even a dark side Yoda(as dooku described), who would be more powerful than ANY version of Sidious. I don't know if that made any sense.

hmm.. ur right i didnt add depa biliba... sht lol

Did anyone put Kar Vastor on that list?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Eh are you sure ROTS Yoda was in his prime? I would like to see a young Yoda fight a young Sidious.. And I personally feel that ROTS Sidious reached his potential. It doesn't count much just because he got a younger body yet again. Then you'd have to make an argument for ROTS Yoda in a younger body, or hell even a dark side Yoda(as dooku described), who would be more powerful than ANY version of Sidious. I don't know if that made any sense.

a. As Ush has already explained to you, it is traditional Star Wars tenet that the older a Force-user gets, the more powerful he becomes. Not only in the Force, but in all-around combat. Yoda, Dooku, Mace, and Luke - especially - are all examples of this.

b. What you personally feel gives no bearing to this argument, once again. Sidious spent the next twenty years studying the Force, actively, on a day-to-day basis - plundering various Force-strong clans and organizations from their knowledge. Plus, all that crap from the Jedi Temple. He became stronger.

Consider that Dooku had, perhaps, twenty years or so on Palpatine, in age, and he had reached his potential - and maintained that level of power for a long time. Now, imagine, Sidious (twenty years younger), with a new plethora of information and those years to study the Force.

c. It was not the clone body which gave him this power. In fact, Palpatine himself laments that his clone bodies are inferior, and that they succumb to his Dark energies even quicker. The only thing that his clone bodies gave him were the strength, speed, and agility of a young man. And that didn't last very long.

d. Palpatine, sometime during the events of RotS to the events of Dark Empire, finally created his Force Storm. That, too, had nothing to do with the clone bodies. Just his years of research and study.

e. Where is it said that a Dark Yoda would defeat Sidious in any of his forms? Dooku never said that. He said that if Yoda ever turned to the Dark Side, even Sidious himself would be annihilated. Which means that a Dark Side Yoda would defeat that present day Sidious. Nothing indicates that he could take on and defeat DE Palpatine. Furthermore, that was Dooku's own opinion on the matter, based on Yoda's centuries of experience.

f. Yoda has several centuries of experience in studying the Force that Sidious did not. In TPM, Obi-Wan says that "not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high!" - when referring to Anakin's blood analysis.

That means that, at the time of TPM, Yoda had the highest midichlorian count, meaning he had the highest known potential, bar Anakin. It is logical to assume that Windu was a close second or so.

I know that the older you get the more powerful and knowledgeable you get, but your example with Dooku deals with force potential. So obviously Sidious had more than Dooku, ok? And Lightsnake is the one always parading around with the dark side Yoda quote so you'd have to ask him. I think it was something like a DS Yoda would annihiliate any DS users before and after him. A 900 year old dark sider, etc.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know that the older you get the more powerful and knowledgeable you get, but your example with Dooku deals with force potential. So obviously Sidious had more than Dooku, ok? And Lightsnake is the one always parading around with the dark side Yoda quote so you'd have to ask him. I think it was something like a DS Yoda would annihiliate any DS users before and after him. A 900 year old dark sider, etc.

No, that isn't the quote.

The quote is: "If Yoda turned to the Dark Side, Sidious himself would be annihilated."

And, as for the rest, my point is that Sidious did not reach his potential at RotS, whereas Yoda did. And they stalemated. Which means that either Sidious's potential supercedes Yoda's own, or that his power does.

Well then a few questions come to mind. In terms of potential, in ROTS Yoda seemed to have superiority in the force to Sidious correct? This would be the fact that he threw a pod back up at Sidious, and Sidious couldn't bllock it, whereas Yoda blocked it as the pod was going DOWN. That's a clear demonstration of his superiority. Not to mention his absorption of the lightning and Sidious "oh holy hell" look. Then there's the other fact that he possibly disarmed Sidious(I'm not sure if that's true I read it somewhere). The problem is I'm sure Sidious reached his peak in ROTJ, but we see nothing from him. He had no lightsaber, he was old and shriveled, and I have to believe that in terms of lightsaber abilities, Sidious DID reach his potential in ROTS, and reached his force potential in ROTJ or probably in DE. Also, a good debate would be the quality and quantity from the teachings that Yoda had, and the teachings that Sidious had.

Once again, you misunderstand. Yoda had reached his potential by the time of RotS. Hell, one could argue that he already reached in TPM. But, Sidious did not. He was, perhaps, three-fourths of the way there, based on what we know from other sources.

As for the "Force superiority", no, I wouldn't think so. During the initial portion of the pod fight, Sidious lifted three repulsorpods out of their moorings and - please note this - tossed all three up into the air, several meters above himself, as to gain momentum when he through them at Yoda. He tossed pods in direct defiance with gravity, and he threw three of them.

Then, you need to take into consideration that, immediately after he tossed the final pod at Yoda, Palpatine was no longer taking the fight seriously. He grew cocky. As RotS displayed, he closed his eyes and simply laughed into the back of his hand, and did not pay attention to Yoda.

Yoda had already launched the pod when Sidious stopped laughing, and was just in shock that Yoda had the balls to toss it back at him. Considering the other things that he did, it is unlikely that he couldn't have stopped the pod. He jumped away at the last moment.



No, I don't see how.



I have already argued about the lightning ball scene. In fact, Yoda was the one grimacing in pain as he held the lightning at bay. By your logic, I could argue that Sidious held superiority there. Sidious was generating the energy, and thus had more control over it. Yoda was forced to remain stationary, but kept the lightning from striking him. Sidious got too close, and intensified the outpouring lightning. It coiled, just short of Yoda's palms.

Yoda simply pushed the collected energy right in between them, which blew them back. It ended in a stalemate. He didn't overpower Sidious in that instance, either.



I've already argued that, as well. The official script says that he disarmed Sidious. Yoda then vows to kill Sidious, who blasts him with lightning. Yoda catches the lightning and throws it back, starting to deform Sidious. Then the script says that Yoda, for no reason, jumps away to a Senate pod.

This contradicts with the movie itself. But I would have no problem believing that Yoda finally outsparred Sidious, given that Sidious was out of practice.

Then again, we see that Sidious also disarmed Yoda - blasting the lightsaber right out of his hand.



Sidious, once again, did not practice with a lightsaber for thirteen years. To say that he reached his potential in that department would also be a foolish assessment. I'd argue that he was at his peak in lightsaber ability when he was training Maul. He, in fact, used a lightsaber to "trace" Maul's figure. He moved his lightsaber so quickly and efficiently that he managed to outline Maul's entire physical figure that if Maul moved a muscle, it "would have killed him".

As far as his Force potential, there's no telling that he even reached it at Dark Empire - which was where he finally developed his most devastating attack.



Maybe.

Originally posted by Escape81
Once again, you misunderstand. Yoda had reached his potential by the time of RotS. Hell, one could argue that he already reached in TPM. But, Sidious did not. He was, perhaps, three-fourths of the way there, based on what we know from other sources.

So it is possible that either Sidious had more force potential for whatever reason, or he had access to teachings of greater quality than Yoda did.

As for the "Force superiority", no, I wouldn't think so. During the initial portion of the pod fight, Sidious lifted three repulsorpods out of their moorings and - please note this - tossed all three up into the air, several meters above himself, as to gain momentum when he through them at Yoda. He tossed pods in direct defiance with gravity, and he threw three of them.

Then, you need to take into consideration that, immediately after he tossed the final pod at Yoda, Palpatine was no longer taking the fight seriously. He grew cocky. As RotS displayed, he closed his eyes and simply laughed into the back of his hand, and did not pay attention to Yoda.

Yoda had already launched the pod when Sidious stopped laughing, and was just in shock that Yoda had the balls to toss it back at him. Considering the other things that he did, it is unlikely that he couldn't have stopped the pod. He jumped away at the last moment.

You also have to take a look at how high he lifted them. Maybe 1-2 feet? And perhaps he did get cocky but his look of shock was more like "I can't believe he was able to stop it and throw it back at me". And the fact that Sidious jumped down was because he couldn't stop it, rather him not taking the fight seriously. If he DIDNT take the fight seriously, that was the moment he did. And sheer physics demonstrate that what Yoda did compared to Sidious, demonstrated his superiority over certain aspects over the force, compared to Sidious.


I have already argued about the lightning ball scene. In fact, Yoda was the one grimacing in pain as he held the lightning at bay. By your logic, I could argue that Sidious held superiority there. Sidious was generating the energy, and thus had more control over it. Yoda was forced to remain stationary, but kept the lightning from striking him. Sidious got too close, and intensified the outpouring lightning. It coiled, just short of Yoda's palms.
Yoda simply pushed the collected energy right in between them, which blew them back. It ended in a stalemate. He didn't overpower Sidious in that instance, either.

Look carefully bro. The first second or two of the blast Yoda is shown grimacing. Then he turns back around and puts on his "you're ******" face. As soon as that happens he is seem absorbing the lightning, and Palpatine is showing the "i'm screwed" look, and more and more he seems to be either getting more deformed, or losing control of everything, until the blast pushes them both away. This also shows that Yoda was winning and Sidious was at the end of his ropes.



I've already argued that, as well. The official script says that he disarmed Sidious. Yoda then vows to kill Sidious, who blasts him with lightning. Yoda catches the lightning and throws it back, starting to deform Sidious. Then the script says that Yoda, for no reason, jumps away to a Senate pod.
This contradicts with the movie itself. But I would have no problem believing that Yoda finally outsparred Sidious, given that Sidious was out of practice.
Then again, we see that Sidious also disarmed Yoda - blasting the lightsaber right out of his hand.

And this is why I don't understand how they can consider a man, who up to that point had only force lightning(which is all he ever used), the most powerful sith lord in history. That just tells me that it disregards the EU..



Sidious, once again, did not practice with a lightsaber for thirteen years. To say that he reached his potential in that department would also be a foolish assessment. I'd argue that he was at his peak in lightsaber ability when he was training Maul. He, in fact, used a lightsaber to "trace" Maul's figure. He moved his lightsaber so quickly and efficiently that he managed to outline Maul's entire physical figure that if Maul moved a muscle, it "would have killed him".

As far as his Force potential, there's no telling that he even reached it at Dark Empire - which was where he finally developed his most devastating attack.

Is it stated that he didn't practice in 13 years? Also, we know Yoda teaches children saber forms, but honestly when is the last time Yoda picked up a saber, prior to Dooku? It could have been 50 years, or 100 years for all we know, right? If that were the case, then Yoda was out of practice to, seeing as he had no reason to use a lightsaber up until fighting Dooku. And again I don't think it had as much to do with force potential as it did with the amount of Knowledge that Sidious had, and its quality that surpassed Yoda's. I'd like to think they were both at their respective peaks in ROTS in terms of equal knowledge and what not, and Yoda clearly proved to be more powerful than Sidious.

Based on what we know, it seems to be the only options.



One to two feet? I would recommend reviewing the fight again.

Palpatine ripped three pods from their moorings, and tossed them into the air, behind him, giving them extra momentum when he threw them at Yoda. No, it was several meters.

Also, after the final pod was thrown, Sidious was so wrapped up in his amusement, that he was not paying attention, nor did he take the fight seriously at all. If you'd like to go on expressions, when he finally did pay attention - the curious tick of the head and the "eh?" that he muttered seemed to hint at confusion, at how Yoda managed to stop it and throw it back.



I am listening carefully. Once again, you're incorrect.

Yoda starts off, grimacing in pain and effort, with Sidious once again laughing. This seems to piss Yoda off, so he starts to move the lightning back, and then Sidious gets the "I'm screwed" look.

And, as I've already proven, this does not determine Yoda's superiority. For the vast majority of that scene, Palpatine had the advantage, and was overpowering Yoda. Only at the last moment did Yoda manage to act, and all he did was simply push the coiled energy directly in between them - which explains why both of them were knocked back by the shockwaves.



Considering how he was cited as such in EU sourcebooks, that's a poor assessment.



Yes. I'd recommend reading the RotS novelization. He had his lightsaber contained in a neuranium statue for the better part of thirteen years.



That is precisely my point.

Yoda, as an instructor, master, and Grandmaster, actively practiced with a lightsaber. There is no refuting that. He trained with the younglings, Dooku, and several others. Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter specifically states that he engaged in practice duels often. I would recommend familiarizing yourself in PT era novels a bit more.

Sidious had none after TPM.



The point is: Sidious's potential > Yoda's.

Sidious had, perhaps, sixty years of training in the Force, whereas Yoda had eight hundred and eighty. And he was only able to stalemate Sidious.

As I told you, Yoda was at his peak. Sidious was not. That is a poor assessment.

Edit, regarding Sidious's lightsaber abilities:

"In Episode I Journal: Darth Maul, he demonstrated the ability to "move faster than {Darth Maul's} eye can follow," and wielded a lightsaber with such precision that he traced Maul's outline with its blade so closely that "one flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle" would have killed him."

Again, why is Sidous potential>Yoda, and not necessarily the quality of his teachings? It could be either or. And apparently Sidious did lose his ability to move quicker than the eye could see when he fought Mace huh?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again, why is Sidous potential>Yoda, and not necessarily the quality of his teachings? It could be either or. And apparently Sidious did lose his ability to move quicker than the eye could see when he fought Mace huh?

Because, Sidious at his peak has performed far more powerful feats than Yoda at his. Also, if you believe that sheer quality is going to put a sixty year old Force user on par with an eight hundred year old Force user - without the presence of superior power or potential - you're deluded.

As for his speed, yes, apparently he did. Did I not just argue that he was out of practice when he fought against Mace?

Originally posted by Escape81
Based on what we know, it seems to be the only options.



One to two feet? I would recommend reviewing the fight again.

Palpatine ripped three pods from their moorings, and tossed them into the air, behind him, giving them extra momentum when he threw them at Yoda. No, it was several meters.
Also, after the final pod was thrown, Sidious was so wrapped up in his amusement, that he was not paying attention, nor did he take the fight seriously at all. If you'd like to go on expressions, when he finally did pay attention - the curious tick of the head and the "eh?" that he muttered seemed to hint at confusion, at how Yoda managed to stop it and throw it back.

Ok I reviewed the it again and it was higher than 1-2 feet. However I disagree with your interpretation that Sidious was amused. My argument is that even though Sidious threw down 3 pods at a time, the fact is Yoda stopped it, defying gravity, and threw it back at Sidious, defying gravity. At this point I interpretated the next scene as Sidious NOT having the ability to stop it, which if the case, shows Yoda has more control over the force at this point in time.



Yoda starts off, grimacing in pain and effort, with Sidious once again laughing. This seems to piss Yoda off, so he starts to move the lightning back, and then Sidious gets the "I'm screwed" look.

And, as I've already proven, this does not determine Yoda's superiority. For the vast majority of that scene, Palpatine had the advantage, and was overpowering Yoda. Only at the last moment did Yoda manage to act, and all he did was simply push the coiled energy directly in between them - which explains why both of them were knocked back by the shockwaves.Considering how he was cited as such in EU sourcebooks, that's a poor assessment.

That's not the point, I have yet to see any of you explain any of these quotes, instead choosing to hide behind them because they suit you. I'd like to know how he was the most powerful sith lord in history when his arsenal didn't go past force lightning. In ANY of the movies.


And finally, you keep talking about Yoda stalemating Sidious in his prime. Keep in mind that he stalemated him while being on unfair ground for the better part of the fight. He clearly disarmed him and shot his force lightning back at him on even ground so Yoda was better than Sidious by ROTS. Now again in terms of force potential, obviously ROTJ or DE Sidious were the best. Saber combat like you said would be TPM or ROTS..

Yes, but your interpretation makes no sense. Why would Sidious not be able to stop one, if he can be in complete control of three?



You accuse me of "hiding behind quotes"? If I need to, I can get a third party in here to verify that you are fond of that little habit. You like to hide behind excuses.

Furthermore, I never said that he was the strongest at the point of RotS. He is the greatest by far at RotS, but I personally don't believe that he gets the title of "most powerful" until Dark Empire.



Quit whining about these supposed unfair advantages. I'd hate to see you ever get in a fight to the death, because your philosophy on fighting gives me the assumption that you'd be slaughtered by any smart fighter.

Sidious fought smarter than Yoda. His goal = survive. So he used all the tricks he had. Yoda's goal = kill Sidious. He was single-minded on it, and left himself vulnerable to his smarter opponent. As we've already proven, Sidious is equal to Yoda in everything, save for lightsaber combat - which he used the environment to even the odds.

By the time of RotJ, Palpatine is more powerful than Yoda, and by the time of Dark Empire, he'd wipe his ass with him.

Originally posted by Escape81
Yes, but your interpretation makes no sense. Why would Sidious not be able to stop one, if he can be in complete control of three?

What do you mean my interpretation makes no sense? He was able to chug 3 DOWN. He was not able to stop one flying back UP at him, meaning Yoda has more force control in terms of gravity than Sidious.



You accuse me of "hiding behind quotes"? If I need to, I can get a third party in here to verify that you are fond of that little habit. You like to hide behind excuses.

No, I didn't accuse you, however a lot of your posts include "Well this says this so case closed". And pray tell what excuses am I hiding behind?



unfair advantages. I'd hate to see you ever get in a fight to the death, because your philosophy on fighting gives me the assumption that you'd be slaughtered by any smart fighter.

Whining? I love how you interpret things 100% incorrectly. I am stating that Yoda>Sidious on fair ground which is fact, in case it hasn't been done in this versus forum before.

Sidious fought smarter than Yoda. His goal = survive. So he used all the tricks he had. Yoda's goal = kill Sidious. He was single-minded on it, and left himself vulnerable to his smarter opponent. As we've already proven, Sidious is equal to Yoda in everything, save for lightsaber combat - which he used the environment to even the odds.

Uh nobody was arguing this.

No. He is able to throw three up in direct defiance with gravity, whereas Yoda had one hell of a time throwing one up in defiance with gravity.

It makes more sense that Yoda's persistance caught him off guard, and surprised him, hence his expressions and him suddenly taking the fight seriously.



"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" is your favorite.



It is a fact? Really? Funny how, if it were a fact it would be stated or otherwise supported 100%, which it isn't.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. He is able to throw three up in direct defiance with gravity, whereas Yoda had one hell of a time throwing one up in defiance with gravity.

Lets consider the fact that he raised 3 maybe a meter or 2 and threw them down, while Yoda caught ONE at full speed and threw it back up. If that's not more impressive and shows more force control than Sidious, I don't know what is.



"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" is your favorite..

Yes, in response to your "omgz they werent shown to do anything without the amulets, that must mean they can't!"

Look, let's be real here. You started off saying "He threw them two to three feet in the air", and you were proven wrong, weren't you? It is obvious that you have a poor grasp of the fight, anyways. It is obvious that he threw it more than one meter in the air. A meter is nearly exact to three American feet. I would advise that you observe the fight once again, and that you don't debate with me about it 'til you're on your game.

You've hit a rough spot with debating here recently. Your arguments are poorer than ever.



Yes, considering how it doesn't make any sense that they could do it without the amulets, otherwise they would not need to use them in combat, but we've already shown you that the only time that they have generated those blasts is when they have the amulets on. Thus, my side is supported, whereas yours is not.

Originally posted by Escape81
Look, let's be real here. You started off saying "He threw them two to three feet in the air", and you were proven wrong, weren't you? It is obvious that you have a poor grasp of the fight, anyways. It is obvious that he threw it more than one meter in the air. A meter is nearly exact to three American feet. I would advise that you observe the fight once again, and that you don't debate with me about it 'til you're on your game.

oh yes because I interpretated how high the pods were lifted, I suddenly have a poor grasp on the fight.. Says the man who says Sidious was winning for the better part of the final scene. Beautiful logic here.

You've hit a rough spot with debating here recently. Your arguments are poorer than ever.

Yes, because you can't comprehend simple physics, my arguments are poorer than ever. Typical KMC denial here? I suggest you watch the fight again and you tell me whats impressive. Your arguments are hilarious when you try and defend Sidous.



Yes, considering how it doesn't make any sense that they could do it without the amulets, otherwise they would not need to use them in combat, but we've already shown you that the only time that they have generated those blasts is when they have the amulets on. Thus, my side is supported, whereas yours is not.

Yes, that's why in DLOTS it speaks about the time when the sith were a race of ancient magicians and where they learned to construct amulets to pass knowledge through the ages. Yea Escape, your absence of proof side is REALLY supported, and mine really is NOT. Let me guess, DLOTS isn't canon? And stop saying WE, because I can say WE(me and Nai) showed you that they were multipurpose tools. But again as I said, your arguments are hilarious when you discuss Sidious or the ancient sith.

Before we begin, I want to tell you how amusing I find it when you try to tell me that my points are bad, when you're the one who argued that Palpatine only tossed the Senate repulsorpods two to three feet.



No, you misinterpreted how high the pods were lifted, by a considerable degree.

Secondly, where did I ever state that Sidious was winning for the better part of the final scene? I told you that, yes, Sidious had an "I'm screwed" look, but that Yoda was also grimacing in pain, in the attempt to hold the lightning at bay, which you conveniantly forgot, until I told you.

I also provided proof that makes it concrete that it ended in a stalemate, as Yoda didn't overpower Sidious at that point, but simply tipped the coiled Force lightning exactly in between them, thus blasting them both back.



I suppose if you find your arguments being blasted away comical, yes, this situation would be funny to you, wouldn't it? As I said, the guy who is so totally in the dark about this fight scene as to claim that he threw the pods "two to three" feet in the air is enough to make me wonder why you bother to argue with me in the first place.

Sidious grabbed three pods and threw them several meters in the air, up and behind him, in direct defiance with gravity, with ease. Yoda caught one, and threw it back in direct defiance with gravity, with difficulty.

Both feats are impressive. But considering how Palpatine, at that point, wasn't taking the fight seriously - and then taking into consideration the ease that he controlled those pods and his amusement with Yoda, I am disinclined to believe that he couldn't have stopped the pod.



Mm-hmm. So when a person wants to create a tool to pass down history, he is automatically supposed to use it in combat? Wow. I suppose I should start taking my World History books and using them in fistfights.



Firstly:

a. We = Lightsnake and myself. You all = Nai. You don't offer anything to that tag-team.

b. As we (Lightsnake and myself) already told you, if it were just for passing down history, then they wouldn't need to use them in combat.

c. You agreed time and time again, that they required the amulet to channel and augment their abilities.

Lol. You just proved our point. That's because you're kinda slow these days.

Originally posted by Escape81
Before we begin, I want to tell you how amusing I find it when you try to tell me that my points are bad, when you're the one who argued that Palpatine only tossed the Senate repulsorpods two to three feet.

"omgz he got the measurements off by 6 feet omg he can't debate!" THAT is why I find your arguments hilarious. You pick a special point that is irrelevant and you stick to it.



No, you misinterpreted how high the pods were lifted, by a considerable degree.

Secondly, where did I ever state that Sidious was winning for the better part of the final scene? I told you that, yes, Sidious had an "I'm screwed" look, but that Yoda was also grimacing in pain, in the attempt to hold the lightning at bay, which you conveniantly forgot, until I told you.

You specifically said that the last scene Sidious was winning the better part of it. Perhaps you should spend less time preaching about someone's IQ and more time arguing what you actually wrote. And I never forgot that Yoda was grimacing in pain, I even stated in the beginning Yoda was getting screwed with the lightning before he put on a serious look, then absorbed it then probably shot it back at Sidious to give Sidious his look.

I also provided proof that makes it concrete that it ended in a stalemate, as Yoda didn't overpower Sidious at that point, but simply tipped the coiled Force lightning exactly in between them, thus blasting them both back.

How is Yoda's serious look+Sidious' screwed face=/Yoda overpowering Sidious in that one particular scene? You have a weird way of interpreting fight scenes.

I suppose if you find your arguments being blasted away comical, yes, this situation would be funny to you, wouldn't it? As I said, the guy who is so totally in the dark about this fight scene as to claim that he threw the pods "two to three" feet in the air is enough to make me wonder why you bother to argue with me in the first place.

Yes, becaus I got the feet off, I'm completely in the dark about the fight. Beautiful logic there escape, maybe you should take a nap? I bother to argue with you because it's amusing to see someone fully telling themselves they are correct to make themselves feel better. Believe me, you're not a hard person to debate with, despite what you might tell yourself at night.

Sidious grabbed three pods and threw them several meters in the air, up and behind him, in direct defiance with gravity, with ease. Yoda caught one, and threw it back in direct defiance with gravity, with difficulty.

Oy.. I'm going to assume you haven't taken a physics class.. Sidious lifted 3 pods 1-2 meters correct? 2 meters is 6"8 in case you're unaware, and that's tops. Now, he lifted the pods that high and threw them at Yoda. Nobody is debating that it wasn't an impressive feat, in fact it showed amazing control of the force. However, Yoda stopped one going DOWN at him at FULL SPEED, and then THREW IT BACK UP. If you understood physics you'd understand it SHOULD be theoretically more difficult, and you'd understand that even though Sidious was laughing, he knew he couldn't stop the oncoming pod so he jumped down. Judging by that scene, Yoda showed better force control. Yes, that's logical..



Firstly:

a. We = Lightsnake and myself. You all = Nai. You don't offer anything to that tag-team.

b. As we (Lightsnake and myself) already told you, if it were just for passing down history, then they wouldn't need to use them in combat.

c. You agreed time and time again, that they required the amulet to channel and augment their abilities.

Lol. You just proved our point. That's because you're kinda slow these days.

A. oh please, like im going to take an angry kid seriously when he's arguing about something he obviously dislikes. I'll tell you what, when more than one person who hates the ancient sith or even has any credibility on this forum tells me I can't debate, I'll take it into consideration. Until then, shut up because your opinion means very little to me when you're heated.

b. Man, you really can't read can you? Time and time again you have shown a lack of reading comprehension. For the millionth time, should I look up the definition of "multipurpose" for you, or will you be trying to continue to argue in this manner for the rest of your time here?

C. Yes, on SOME things they did, while you stated because they used the amulets they could not do without them.

And no, I proved my point so I suggest you take a nap, and enhance your reading comprehension skills, and stop lying to yourself so much.

I'd like to apologize for my rude comments, before we begin. Though I personally think you're grossly incorrect, it's no need for me to act like some of the other debators around here and bash you into submission.



What can I say? I'm tenacious on certain things. As for your misinterpretation, all it does is imply that you do not know the fight as well as you think. Or as well as I do.



May I see where? I don't recall saying that. He was winning the initial part of the "lighting ball" scene, yes. That could be interpreted as most of it, I suppose, considering how he disarmed Yoda and began blasting him with powerful Force lightning.



That is the point, you see. That specific scene showed that neither one was going to just curbstomp the other. Palpatine generated the lightning and thus had more control over it. Palpatine's taunting of Yoda's pain was enough to send Yoda into an unparalleled state of determination, which then frightened Sidious.

I never denied that Sidious feared Yoda, or the threat that he represented.



Does that mean that when Yoda was actually shown to be in pain, that Sidious bested him?

I want you to observe that specific scene, and look carefully, please.

Palpatine blasted Yoda's lightsaber from his hand. Yoda nearly tipped over the side of the pod, under the power, but regained his footing and caught the lightning. Palpatine began to generate lightning from both hands, which Yoda managed to hold at bay.

Palpatine was free to move, and closed in on Yoda. As he did so, he poured more and more energy, and upped the level of its intensity. By doing so, he caused Yoda mass amounts of pain, and Yoda started to buckle under the assault.

As this happened, Palpatine's Force lightning began to coil - just short of Yoda's palms. The lightning wasn't in between them. It stopped just short of Yoda's palms, and collected in a sort of energy well there.

Palpatine grew amused at Yoda's pain, leered, and leaned in further. This apparently pissed Yoda off, and made him angrier and even more determined. This is when Palpatine realized that the fight was about to end, and looked frightened - as if it weren't going to stop Yoda.

But, this is what happened. All Yoda did was subtlely move his upper body forward, and pushed the collected Force lightning directly in between him and Palpatine.

This explains why the shockwaves knocked them both apart, simultaneously. If Palpatine and Yoda were the same size, it would have been likely that he and Yoda would've been blasted back the equal distance - but that is just pure speculation.

In any case, Palpatine's heavier weight and middle position allowed him to grab onto the railing of the pod, whereas Yoda was flung across the Rotunda.

So, no. I don't see how Yoda or Palpatine won in the end. Neither of them completely overpowered the other. They had moments when they were beating the other, but - in the end - it was a stalemate. Sidious ended up with the higher ground - but didn't opt to finish Yoda off. Yoda was wounded, without a lightsaber, and couldn't hope to finish the fight without one. Sidious had the advantage of offensive Force powers, and as that part displayed, it was useless.



You may continue to think that.



You'd be surprised. Our science teacher used to be a physics professor at a local university, which is where I got this from. He is a Star Wars fan, and even had a mini-lecture on this scene when we were discussing Newton.

Palpatine ripped three pods out of their moorings, and threw them farther up, simultaneously, in defiance with gravity, with incredible ease. Yoda had difficulty stopping one, at full speed, and sent it back.

He deemed that Palpatine was the one ultimately lifting the greater weight, and in defiance with gravity (a force that likes to keep things near the ground), and had an easier time with it.

Yoda was stopping a third of that weight and tossing it back.

Like I said. Given Palpatine's power in the Force, his control over the pods, and that he only began to pay attention after the pod was already half way to his position, it is more logical that he could have stopped the pod, but was taken aback because he underestimated Yoda.

As for the rest, I'm not going to argue about. We've argued from here to high hell about the amulets and their powers.

Fair enough, except a few things. What Yoda was doing was more than absorbing the lightning I think, because it was as if it was getting shot back at Sidious and he was getting more deformed or what not, as you could tell by his expression and "ahhhh". It was more than "Oh shit Yoda isn't going down", it was him on the end of his ropes, and the only thing that saved him was the blast. So while it was a stalemate, it was a stalemate on unfair ground and my point in bringing that up was the fact that Yoda was the more powerful of the two and showed it.

I know physics quite well and heres what you have to look at. While Palpatine lifted the greater weight, his defiance in gravity was far inferior to what Yoda did. Now if you know physics and gravity, you will understand that even if he did pick up 3 pods and flung then DOWN WITH GRAVITY, Yoda stopping one Pod against gravity and fling it up against gravity ultimately holds more weight than Palpatine flinging 3 down with gravity. IF you want a specific example of what I mean, I would be happy to show you..

As for the amulets, I'm tired of arguing about them. At the end of the day we're still cool.

Really, Yoda wasn't absorbing the lightning. He was just keeping it from striking him. And, before the energy ball collected up, there wasn't any lightning hitting Sidious.

As for the end of his ropes thing, how could Yoda have possibly defeated Sidious? His only hope would have been to knock Palpatine off of the pod, and hope that he fell to his death. Palpatine blasted Yoda's lightsaber away and Yoda has no offensive Force powers at his disposal.

Without a lightsaber, the only one with the real chance to kill would have been Palpatine. I'm sorry, DS. That fact is apparent. That is the reason Yoda didn't go back up to finish the fight. Because without his saber, the only thing he could've done - at best - was to just keep the lightning at bay.

So, no. I still don't see how Yoda overpowered Sidious. He didn't even attack him. All he did was just push the collected Force lightning in between them.



Palpatine lifted three times the weight against gravity with ease. Yoda had to stop a third of that weight, at full speed, and toss it back against gravity.

I'd say that they are both equal feats, considering that Yoda stopped it at full speed and tossed it back, but Palpatine lifted three times the weight with ease.

Regardless, nothing indicates that Palpatine couldn't have stopped it. But it was practically on top of him by the time he registered that it was being tossed back, and that Yoda wasn't finished.

Originally posted by Escape81
So, no. I still don't see how Yoda overpowered Sidious. He didn't even attack him. All he did was just push the collected Force lightning in between them.

Bro, Sidious was clearly getting that lightning either shot back at him or something, look at his face at the end. It is clear horror or shock like he's about to die, that is how I interpret it.

Palpatine lifted three times the weight against gravity with ease. Yoda had to stop a third of that weight, at full speed, and toss it back against gravity.

I'd say that they are both equal feats, considering that Yoda stopped it at full speed and tossed it back, but Palpatine lifted three times the weight with ease.

Ok let me try to explain it better. Palpatine initially lifted 3 times the weight maybe 4-6 feet above him and tossed them DOWN. NOW...Yoda stopped a pod that was initially considered a 3rd of the weight, until it was thrown down with gravity. When it was thrown down, for the receiver(yoda), the pod became a 3rd of the weight Sidious threw down PLUS gravity, which if we had exact calculations could at the end being twice the weight that Palpatine threw down, or exactly the same. That would make Yoda's feat more impressive and show more control. Now as for Sidious stopping a pod going at him, against gravity, he might have been laughing and what not but he was clearly in no position to stop it whether he had the ability or not. Yoda showed more force control over all in that scene. So whether or not he COULD stop it is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is, he wasn't able to.

He wasn't. Though, I suppose, we've found a logical explanation. Perhaps he feared that the lightning would hit him, hence why he leaned back. But, none of it actually hit him.



I just looked at it again. It looked as if Palpatine tossed the pods up and behind him, by several meters. But that he could throw them all back up, simultaneously, to gain momentum, and keep control of two while he threw one down, speaks a lot for me. That puts him on par with Yoda, easily, in the Force.

I don't deny that Palpatine wasn't able to. Notice that the pod was more than half way to Palpatine before he even acknowledged it. And when it finally sunk in, he barely got out of the way. But that's not Yoda's work. That's Palpatine's chief weakness: overconfidence.

Im watching the scene as we speak. It might not be hitting him but something has gotten Sidious spooked.. He has the look of horror or imminent death on his face. And I never said Sidious wasn't on par with the force. I would still put Yoda's force abilities superior to Sidious by ROTS, but in that particular scene, he lifts 3 pods maybe 3 meters TOPS, and throws them down. Please read my physics example again to understand the concept of weight increasing with gravity.

In the script it says "It looks as if the Dark Lord is Doomed", that's the part with the lightning. So I belive Yoda was actually gonna push it back into Sidious...

Well that is my point with Sidious' imminent death face.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Im watching the scene as we speak. It might not be hitting him but something has gotten Sidious spooked.. He has the look of horror or imminent death on his face. And I never said Sidious wasn't on par with the force. I would still put Yoda's force abilities superior to Sidious by ROTS, but in that particular scene, he lifts 3 pods maybe 3 meters TOPS, and throws them down. Please read my physics example again to understand the concept of weight increasing with gravity.

That's precisely my point. We can provide a logical explanation. Sidious most likely feared that Yoda was going to attempt to put it back on him, which explains the fear on his face and why he leaned back.



No, Kamikz. That is the retarded scene to which I referred earlier. The one where Yoda disarms Sidious. Sidious then tries to blast Yoda, but Yoda blasts the lightning back at Sidious, and then, for no reason, jumps off the pod.

Oh, sorry got it wrong. But actually, in the novelisation I think Yoda gets overpowered and flies outside the pod, not jumps off willingly.... (The "retarded" scene, not the one in the end...)

Originally posted by kamikz
Oh, sorry got it wrong. But actually, in the novelisation I think Yoda gets overpowered and flies outside the pod, not jumps off willingly.... (The "retarded" scene, not the one in the end...)

No. In the novelization, Sidious jumps to a pod, and Yoda attempts to follow - but is hit, full on, by Force lightning - and knocked across the Rotunda.

well now im confused