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out of the cosmic universe - in d.c and marvel

some ideas
www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_marvel/

ok start

Ion (Kyle Raynor) When he had absorbed the full Power of Oa...who is classified to be stronger than Parallax, who DC said was even stronger than the Spectre (who many beleive to be the strongest).

Ion is a part of the fabric of the universe, and can be in many places and times at once...(essentially making him Immortal). And he can also capable of performing anything, even beyond possible human imagination. He has the abilitiy to stop and controll all time and matter.

na i say this has to go to living tribunal - he could simply erase ion
same with people like eternity - and loads of others

Ion IS the fabric of the universe, he can change matter (move galaxies, or erase them)...stop all time, erase all time, or be in multiple times at once...Ion could techically have a form of himself in every place and time EVER, he is unstoppable. He could essentially, at once, travel back to a time when every other cosmic was weaker, or before they existed and somehow eliminated them. I dont think any cosmic would tangle with Ion, who has Trans-Godlike powers.

You can't "erase" or kill him because he is part of the fabric of the universe, he has no physical being so to speak, just a manifestation of his self....This is why he gives up his powers as Ion, he has no identity so to speak, and he can't sleep, or anything, because hes really not even alive anymore.

But LT has the ability to erase the universe.

Batman...

Wolverine


http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=max0009jpgw1tb.jpg









****runs and hides***

Living Tribunal

none of the above, the beyonder pre-retcon has been shown killing death itself, and beating the likes of galactus, the celestials, the phoenix force, eternity, and LT, etc........even forcing the entire race of "the watchers" to actually interfere in universal affairs by trying to save the universe from the beyonder destroying it, which he did anyway, but then remade it at a later time.......he can truly do anything he wants, his power really cant be argued

The Presence from DC is the most powerful of all cosmics. While not being God exactly, he has been shown to be the closest thing to God. He controls the source, the spectre, and more.

Parallax (Hal Jordan)..also restarts the universe, but Ion is much more powerful, so I dont doubt he could do the same, or also just "delete" the multiverse..

Either way, all we're doing here is comparing gods...many of them can destroy the universe, or do anything they think of...its useless to compare, because there is no way to guage them.

Thanos with HOTU, then LT in marvel.

even thanos with the hotu wouldnt compare to pre retcon beyonder

Originally posted by galan7777777
even thanos with the hotu wouldnt compare to pre retcon beyonder
yeah tru that, hes ubove LT tho

Originally posted by Priest
yeah tru that, hes ubove LT tho

absolutely, i thought u were comparing him 2 beyonder at 1st

Ion has about as much power as paralax in his hight. which is enough to snuff out a star or re ignite one (which he did and died in the process of doing because it was the totatily of his powers) .

before you post a rebuttle think about what cosmic power is and what abstract entities are, and all the diffrent power levels out there and stop making up stuff. go off of the facts of a charater and not the hyperbole.
such as when someone says "that punch could have destroyed a mountain".

and then realize what it is what you talk about. for example a dimension is not the same thing , as a universe, which is not the same thing as a galixy

^^^ that being said I say the Living Tribunal is the most powerful cosmic entitiy, beside (of course) the one above all, and it's other name the source. (it's third name.. Jack Kirby was mentioned in a Cosmic Powers comic)

Originally posted by galan7777777
none of the above, the beyonder pre-retcon has been shown killing death itself, and beating the likes of galactus, the celestials, the phoenix force, eternity, and LT, etc........even forcing the entire race of "the watchers" to actually interfere in universal affairs by trying to save the universe from the beyonder destroying it, which he did anyway, but then remade it at a later time.......he can truly do anything he wants, his power really cant be argued

Pre retcon Beyonder beat Rachel. He did NOT beat the Phoenix Force, lets get that straight. At the time they fought (pre 86 Phoenix retcon) there was no Phoenix Force. However taking the retcon into consideration Rachel wouldve been a host with limited access to the Force.

Originally posted by galan7777777
even thanos with the hotu wouldnt compare to pre retcon beyonder

Feats wise Thanos with HOTI trumps Beyonders best. However by presentation Beyonder seemed more omnipotent than Thanos. No real way of telling.

the pre reticon Beyonder was his own dimension, he was the one who was all. his power rivaled The One Above All (LT's boss) the molicue man stated that there was notrhing that could stop him him if he didn't truly want it to.

Originally posted by complexbrother
Ion has about as much power as paralax in his hight. which is enough to snuff out a star or re ignite one (which he did and died in the process of doing because it was the totatily of his powers) .

before you post a rebuttle think about what cosmic power is and what abstract entities are, and all the diffrent power levels out there and stop making up stuff. go off of the facts of a charater and not the hyperbole.
such as when someone says "that punch could have destroyed a mountain".

and then realize what it is what you talk about. for example a dimension is not the same thing , as a universe, which is not the same thing as a galixy That was the lowest dregs of his powers. Zero Hour was the height of his powers, and he was creating reality with one hand while fighting off Spectre and other heros with the other.

Final Night was after all that power was used up.


As ION, Kyle was able to create high end cosmic entities both on purpose and accident.

Originally posted by complexbrother
the pre reticon Beyonder was his own dimension, he was the one who was all. his power rivaled The One Above All (LT's boss) the molicue man stated that there was notrhing that could stop him him if he didn't truly want it to.

Character claims dont equate to canon fact, especially when the claimed point being made is disputed on panel. According to Beyonder himself the M'kraan crystal could end his physical form and revert him back to his formless state. Who are we to believe?

TOAA is apparrently the creator of all things Marvel. He is the equivalent to God. Therefore all things Marvel would derive from him including the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Jarlaxle
Ion (Kyle Raynor) When he had absorbed the full Power of Oa...who is classified to be stronger than Parallax, who DC said was even stronger than the Spectre (who many beleive to be the strongest).

Parallax was never put over the The Spectre.

Originally posted by complexbrother
Ion has about as much power as paralax in his hight. which is enough to snuff out a star or re ignite one (which he did and died in the process of doing because it was the totatily of his powers) .

To add on to what Juntai said above, Parallax also had to wipe out the Sun Eater and restore the solar system to it's proper condition so he did a fair bit more than just reignite a star.

Originally posted by Validus
Parallax was never put over the The Spectre.


To add on to what Juntai said above, Parallax also had to wipe out the Sun Eater and restore the solar system to it's proper condition so he did a fair bit more than just reignite a star.

Originally posted by Priest
Thanos with HOTU, then LT in marvel.

What is the HOTU?

Originally posted by Grimm22
What is the HOTU?

A power source in 616 Thanos came across that gave him power enough to beat all the universes, champions, abstracts and even LT.
(Although debatably it could have been an MBody of LTs)

Thanos absorbed the universe before Adam Warlock (having been in another dimension at the time) appearred and helped him see the error of his ways. He then undid his actions, ensuring the reversion of the universe to its previous state.

Originally posted by Grimm22
What is the HOTU? The Heart of the Universe.

Which the name seems kind of odd when considering its feats and where most people place it in the hierarchy

This forum makes it impossible to forget about the awful Marvel: The End mini series.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The Presence from DC is the most powerful of all cosmics. While not being God exactly, he has been shown to be the closest thing to God. He controls the source, the spectre, and more. presence ----fused with the creations...Pre beyonder and pheonix and its polar opposite that is a being above and beyond omnipotent

Originally posted by Validus
This forum makes it impossible to forget about the awful Marvel: The End mini series. lol.

Originally posted by Darth Ownage
presence ----fused with the creations...Pre beyonder and pheonix and its polar opposite that is a being above and beyond omnipotent they fart things out of existence

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Character claims dont equate to canon fact, especially when the claimed point being made is disputed on panel. According to Beyonder himself the M'kraan crystal could end his physical form and revert him back to his formless state. Who are we to believe?

TOAA is apparrently the creator of all things Marvel. He is the equivalent to God. Therefore all things Marvel would derive from him including the Beyonder.

yes but that was not pre-retcon beyonder

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Character claims dont equate to canon fact, especially when the claimed point being made is disputed on panel. According to Beyonder himself the M'kraan crystal could end his physical form and revert him back to his formless state. Who are we to believe?

This must be when Beyonder gave Rachel enough of his power that even she was able to kill him.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8742/beyondermakesrachelgodlikedw5.th.jpg

And still,

the Mkraan Crystal was NOT able to kill him..only re-create his primal state of unbeing...what he was originally...a UNIVERSE...that was unto ours like a DROP of Water unto the Ocean.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/732/beyonderonrachel3ts7.th.jpg

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406446

this was one of my first threads

The One Above All I would say is the most powerful.

Galactus!

TOAA, LT's boss, not the celestial TOAA..

Why is Pre- Retcon Beyonder even mentioned in this thread. He was Retconned so all the celestials he killed and abstracts was an illusion he created. Might as well say Spiderman if he had the powers of TOAA.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Why is Pre- Retcon Beyonder even mentioned in this thread. He was Retconned so all the celestials he killed and abstracts was an illusion he created. Might as well say Spiderman if he had the powers of TOAA.

Which is why he is referred to as "pre-retcon Beyonder"

If we wanted to deal with the other version...that would be post-retcon Beyonder.

Everything Beyonder did before the retcon happened on panel and can be taken into account as legitament feats...so long as he's labeled "pre-retcon" or "classic" beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which is why he is referred to as "pre-retcon Beyonder"

If we wanted to deal with the other version...that would be post-retcon Beyonder.

Everything Beyonder did before the retcon happened on panel and can be taken into account as legitament feats...so long as he's labeled "pre-retcon" or "classic" beyonder.

That means everything he did has a different interpretation and is as meaningful as if Wolverine dreamed that he killed galactus. And to answer this thread I pick God-Wolverine an Infinity Gauntlet on both hands and Silver Surfers board.

Preretcon beyonder WAS written originally as being that powerful. Writers during that time, and later hated the concept story they felt forced to write, so they changed it.

Kinda like what happened with phoenix, the writers had to create a story where jean wasn't really the phoenix.. but really phoenix in a jeanlike body, because the story wasn't any fun to write being too powerful of a character.

Being a person that used to play video games... the fun times I remmeber playing is when I first turned the game on, and not when I was finishing it.

Originally posted by thedude1948
That means everything he did has a different interpretation and is as meaningful as if Wolverine dreamed that he killed galactus. And to answer this thread I pick God-Wolverine an Infinity Gauntlet on both hands and Silver Surfers board.

Not at all.

It's quite simple to differenciate the two...

pre-retcon Beyonder in one scale of power(million of multi-verses).

post-retcon Beyonder is on another scale of power(Cosmic Cube-reality manipulator upto a pocket universe...although Cosmic Containment Units have the potential of making you supreme)

The FULL Marvel hierarchy:

1.GOD(Jack Kirby)
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/6721/godte6.th.jpg

1.TOAA(Stan Lee)
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5329/toaahd8.th.jpg

God/Jack calls him his "Collaborator".....

It makes sense....

TOAA/Stan lays down the Story/Laws of Marvel.

GOD/Jack turns those Stories/Laws into reality.

2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder
(he can do anything with the power of millions of Multi-verses)
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/3159/beyondercandoanythingml3.th.jpg

3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man
(second only to classic Beyonder)
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7054/uatubeggingmmbo6.th.jpg

4. HOTU
(Absrorbed LT)
http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/79/thoumakesyousupreme1du4.th.jpg

5. Living Tribunal
(who is above the IG)
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg

6. Infinity Gauntlet
(makes you "God"
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/4705/igmakesyougod23un.th.jpg

7. Ultimate Nullifier
(can destroy/remake the Multi-verse)
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5568/unismulticv0.th.jpg

Continue. 2

8. Abraxas
(his very presence will cause the Multi-verse to fold in on itself/only the ultimate nullifier can banish him)
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3020/earthalignment8vq.th.jpg
http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/2111/earthalignment26rx.th.jpg
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5590/unabraxasmayhemuk5.th.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5827/unabraxaskouatuuh7.th.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6578/unabraxaskouatu2tv6.th.jpg

9. Multi-Eternity/Multi-Infinity
(embodiments of the Multiverse/Time&Space)
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1623/multiverse2co.th.jpg
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5109/multiverse28yb.th.jpg

10. Infinites/Makers
(The Infinites are the maintenance crew of the Multi-verse)
(The Makers created a Micro-verse pocket universe in every universe in the Multi-verse...later these mini-universes were merged to create one mega-universe named creatively...the Micro-verse...lol.)
sorry no pics...

Continue.3

11.Cosmic Containment Units(POTENTIALLY))
5 Cosmic Cubes make a duplicate 616 universe.
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/7572/cosmiccubesmakeduplicate0fv.th.jpg
Magus might of created Universes...instead of just One Universe with the 5 Cosmic Cubes.
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8372/maguscreateduniversewccue9.th.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6025/maguscreateduniversewcc2gb2.th.jpg
Doom say's it only takes ONE to possibly conquer the Entire Universe.
http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8821/maguscreateduniversewcc3zq6.th.jpg

Which is true...if you have enough WILL power...

Cosmic Containment Units may be able to rival the power of the IG,(POTENTIALLY)
Here Mephisto is telling Thanos about the history of the Cubes...they actually impose limitations on themselves(the containment units)not the entities like kubik and others.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9929/cosmiccubesareallpowerful1wccv8.th.jpg
When Thanos with his willpower exploited that Cosmic Cube...he became the size of a Universe and shrunk down after Marvel destroyed the Cube, which was in some other space unprotected.
First Marvel found the unprotected Cube and destroyed it.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7453/cosmiccubemakesyouauniverse1dn.th.jpg
Then Thanos, who had become the size of the Universe..shrunk down and fell unconscious.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/5301/cosmiccubemakesyouauniverse22l.th.jpg
Or it can simply make you "God"
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1613/cosmiccubemakesyougod5st.th.jpg

Continue. 4

11. Atleza/Universal Anchors
(They stabilize their respective universes from being absorbed by Oblivion)
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/8021/unilook17qj.th.jpg
http://img280.imageshack.us/img280/9715/unilook21qc.th.jpg

12. Phoenix Force
(repaired the lattice of the mkraan crystal/repaired the damage of a universe atom by atom)
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4401/pffixrt5.th.jpg

12. Eternity/Infinty/Entropy/Death
(embodiment of time & space in a single universe)
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/1880/eternityaspectisallreality41tl.th.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6199/eternityaspectisallreality32ro.th.jpg
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4651/entropyrm5.th.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/904/deathperceivesall1vp.th.jpg

I lurk these boards and read them about every day. I hardly post but I just wanted to say

Mr. Master is the man
Keep up the good work!

I also had a question, What happened to the HOTU after Thanos got done with it?

Originally posted by Golvan
I lurk these boards and read them about every day. I hardly post but I just wanted to say

Mr. Master is the man
Keep up the good work!

I also had a question, What happened to the HOTU after Thanos got done with it?

Marvel: The End story isnt in actual Marvel continuity so it is debateable if it even exists in the Marvel Universe or just a what if?

Originally posted by Golvan
I lurk these boards and read them about every day. I hardly post but I just wanted to say

Mr. Master is the man
Keep up the good work!

I also had a question, What happened to the HOTU after Thanos got done with it?



That's the $64,000 question.

Actually the series suggested that THOU was "TOAA/GOD's" instrument to remake that universe or was it the multi-verse? At times you get the feeling Thanos is dealing with the multi-verse, then there are other occasions where it seems to be referring to a universe.

In any case at the end...THOU was released by Thanos to remake everything he absorbed.

But he was being manipulated by "TOAA/God"
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6738/thanosusedai7.th.jpg

Originally posted by thedude1948
Marvel: The End story isnt in actual Marvel continuity so it is debateable if it even exists.

This is actually an interesting situation. I don't believe it's supposed to be in continuity, but I know Thanos mentioned the incident IN continuity. Don't remember the exact comic it was in right now. I'll have to check, unless MM beats me to it.

Originally posted by celestialdemon
This is actually an interesting situation. I don't believe it's supposed to be in continuity, but I know Thanos mentioned the incident IN continuity. Don't remember the exact comic it was in right now. I'll have to check, unless MM beats me to it.

Yeah I remembered Thanos saying something like a few weeks ago being able to dispatch Galactus at a snap of his fingers , but when someone asked a writer about this on comicbookresources.com forums he said that something "similar" happened in the current continuity but not exactly like what happened in The End story. So what probably happened is someone screwed up and didnt know that The End series was basically as canon as a what if?

mr masters, if thanos wiped out an m-body of LT, then that means that he didnt really get rid of the real LT per se? im confused....

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
mr masters, if thanos wiped out an m-body of LT, then that means that he didnt really get rid of the real LT per se? im confused....

I hear this rumor of LT manifesting m-bodies...but on panel that has never been said...

And, I only take on panel proof into consideration.

If I see it and read it on panel...it is what it is.

Something familiar about this: 2006
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7047/beyondaj0.th.jpg


That's right: 1984
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6910/beyond2qe8.th.jpg

Beyonder hasn't changed that much...lol

Originally posted by Mr Master
I hear this rumor of LT manifesting m-bodies...but on panel that has never been said...

And, I only take on panel proof into consideration.

If I see it and read it on panel...it is what it is.


word.

sentence.

What about when Lt got punked by reed richards and his toy gun. Oh yeah and Galactus punked the cosmic hierarchy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Something familiar about this: 2006
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7047/beyondaj0.th.jpg


That's right: 1984
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6910/beyond2qe8.th.jpg

Beyonder hasn't changed that much...lol

i think that the preretcon beyonder may be back!

Originally posted by galan7777777
i think that the preretcon beyonder may be back!

Umm not a chance... Beyonder/Kosmos actually died in Annihilation. Even if he/she is in the Beyond! Series its power isnt going to be at the levels at which he/she had in her illusions.

Originally posted by Mordum
What about when Lt got punked by reed richards and his toy gun. Oh yeah and Galactus punked the cosmic hierarchy.

You mean Reed Richard's "toy gun" that took him 20 years to build?
http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/1964/reedsupercw6.th.jpg

And we should get the story right...even this massive canon that took the smartest man alive 20 years to build was NOT what "punked" LT.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8238/reedsuper3yk7.th.jpg
It's designed to harness a being's own power against them.

Now...when the combined power of all these cosmics including LT joined together.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/1302/reedsuper2ir2.th.jpg
They plotted in erasing Galactus from the Multi-verse.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9383/reedsuper4hl5.th.jpg

All that power combined...plus the blast from Reed's super canon directly into that concentration of power...created a feedback of cosmic proportions that blew back everyone into other dimensions.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9347/reedsuper5le6.th.jpg
Taken by surprise, effectively they defeated themselves really since the canon harnesses the target's own energy.
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.th.jpg

So it wasn't Reed and his "toy gun" that did the job alone.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I hear this rumor of LT manifesting m-bodies...but on panel that has never been said...

And, I only take on panel proof into consideration.

If I see it and read it on panel...it is what it is.

If TOAA himself had to manipulate Thanos with HOTU, than I think Thanos got rid of LT completely.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You mean Reed Richard's "toy gun" that took him 20 years to build?

So it wasn't Reed and his "toy gun" that did the job alone.

What you showed me that LT was toyed and that LT alone couldn't erase Galactus from Multiverse.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Umm not a chance... Beyonder/Kosmos actually died in Annihilation.

Actually the Beyonder who became Kosmos is very much alive.
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2684/maker1ov1.th.jpg
It recently became the Maker...

Originally posted by thedude1948
Even if he/she is in the Beyond! Series its power isnt going to be at the levels at which he/she had in her illusions.


I wouldn't jump on that wagon so quickly.


Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/666/maker2bu1.th.jpg
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.

The Maker was able to destroy the universe on a whim.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3595/maker3ho5.th.jpg

The Maker exerts but a tiny fraction of power and nearly kills Thanos while obliterating everything around.
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/2789/maker4ui0.th.jpg
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7119/maker5wk8.th.jpg
That astonished looking fellow is Gladiator of the Shiar.

When Gladiator first encountered the Maker.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2117/maker7na3.th.jpg

The Maker was rendered unconcious because it took on mortal form and it was spiraling into madness.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1448/maker8sj8.th.jpg
They wanted to kill the Maker in it's vulnerable state...Gladiator asks, "Can you kill a god?"

Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and again refers to it as a god...but it decided to take on mortal form, which made it vulnerable.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1605/maker9rl6.th.jpg

Originally posted by Xplosive
If TOAA himself had to manipulate Thanos with HOTU, than I think Thanos got rid of LT completely.

I agree.

Originally posted by Xplosive
and that LT alone couldn't erase Galactus from Multiverse.

Erasing Galactus from the Multi-verse while setting balance to the Multi-versal misalignment that would take place is beyond even LT evidently.

And they were going to do it simultaneously.

Now, could he erase Galactus if he didn't care about the repercussions...I don't see why not.


My personal opinion is this is PIS.

Originally posted by Mr Master

the Mkraan Crystal was NOT able to kill him..only re-create his primal state of unbeing...what he was originally...a UNIVERSE...that was unto ours like a DROP of Water unto the Ocean.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/732/beyonderonrachel3ts7.th.jpg

So how is that any different to what i just said?

It wasnt. my wording just didnt glorify Beyonder enough to your liking despite the fact that i was highlighting fallibility.

Originally posted by rotiart


Kinda like what happened with phoenix, the writers had to create a story where jean wasn't really the phoenix.. but really phoenix in a jeanlike body, because the story wasn't any fun to write being too powerful of a character.



That interpretation is no longer continuity. Its gone back to the initial concept.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not at all.

It's quite simple to differenciate the two...

pre-retcon Beyonder in one scale of power(million of multi-verses).

A statement thats contradicted on panel and therefore cannot be treated as fact. Nothing on panel to show us its anything but hyperbole.

Originally posted by Mr Master
post-retcon Beyonder is on another scale of power(Cosmic Cube-reality manipulator upto a pocket universe...although Cosmic Containment Units have the potential of making you supreme)

Nope.Cosmic cubes have the potential to allow a wielder to manipulate reality on a universal scale, that does NOT equate to making one supreme.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope.Cosmic cubes have the potential to allow a wielder to manipulate reality on a universal scale, that does NOT equate to making one supreme.

um, gs, magus used cubes to merge 2 UNIVERSES and used them from dimensions away! therefore their powers are MULTIVERSAL in scope. which means all cube beings have potential to be multiversal powers.

you haven't been following . . .

Isn't the Beyonder dead?Fallen one found her Dead in annihilation Silver Surfer...

Originally posted by Skeets
Isn't the Beyonder dead?Fallen one found her Dead in annihilation Silver Surfer... Tenebrous and Aegis killed the fallen one but its implied that Tenebrous is Galactus or up level. As far as the fallen one dead, that would not be good as Thanos said if her mortal form dies, she reverts back to her god-like powers.

Originally posted by leonidas
um, gs, magus used cubes to merge 2 UNIVERSES and used them from dimensions away! therefore their powers are MULTIVERSAL in scope. which means all cube beings have potential to be multiversal powers.

you haven't been following . . .

Not the case at all. As stated, c cubes as standard have planetary level reality warping ability, however a single cube at full potential can manipulate reality on a universal scale, therefore if Magus is using multiple cubes it fits in perfectly that he would be able to go about merging two universes with them. A single cube cannot do so therefore your assessment isnt exactly correct with regards to both the cubes and my following of the thread

but if it's controlling 2 universes and making new ones, and doing it from some other universe . . . that's a lot of universes. almost MULTIPLE universes, you might say. ergo, cosmic cubes MUST be multiversal. that is teh same criteria that was used to determine the IG was a multiversal level power, was it not?

Mr M said a cube can make you supreme and i corrected him. Thats all.

As for multiversal in scope, well applying your power in another reality other than your own doesnt equate to a multiversal power. Thats like saying a cosmic applying their power in another galaxy equates to a universal scale power.

Originally posted by leonidas
but if it's controlling 2 universes and making new ones, and doing it from some other universe . . . that's a lot of universes. almost MULTIPLE universes, you might say. ergo, cosmic cubes MUST be multiversal. that is teh same criteria that was used to determine the IG was a multiversal level power, was it not?

Youre missing the point though. It was multiple cubes. Each one as stated having the full potential to have universal scale power so its all within reason.

oh, and skeets, IF maker is dead (hard to tell if she'll STAY that way) that would put her below beings that are galactus level . . . i'm not sure how that points to multiversal level power, though . . .

though i confess, i may be messing up the argument. i thought the argument was that IG was multiversal because of what it did in IW -- making universes, merging universes from universes away. the cubes appeared to be doing the same things to me, just at a slower rate or perhaps less efficiently. so i surmised that if IG was declared multiversal, the cubes must be as well. if they are NOT multiversal, that must mean all of IW took place in 616 and that the feat was NOT multiversal after all. they both both multiversal or neither was -- at least in THAT particular instance.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre missing the point though. It was multiple cubes. Each one as stated having the full potential to have universal scale power so its all within reason.

okay, let's say i took over earth-s with a cube. i overthrew eternity in earth-s continuity. you're saying the application of that universal power (the cube power) to this OTHER universe still only makes the cube universal in level. i can see that, but, if it's power is applied to a universe other than the one it came from, then its power works in more than one universe and is hence transferrable across universes -- or across the multiverse.

Originally posted by leonidas
okay, let's say i took over earth-s with a cube. i overthrew eternity in earth-s continuity. you're saying the application of that universal power (the cube power) to this OTHER universe still only makes the cube universal in level. i can see that, but, if it's power is applied to a universe other than the one it came from, then its power works in more than one universe and is hence transferrable across universes -- or across the multiverse.

Said cubes power couldnt be used to manipulate Earths S' reality and the other one its power is being applied to therefore it is still universal. Merely being able to apply your power in a different reality doesnt equate to multiversal.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Said cubes power couldnt be used to manipulate Earths S' reality and the other one its power is being applied to therefore it is still universal. Merely being able to apply your power in a different reality doesnt equate to multiversal.

so how do you explain the fact that cubes were apparently drawn from different realities in IW and used to create a new universe and merge it with 616? sounds like the power of the cubes (found in different realities) were used to manipulate 616 . . . exactly the same way the IG did. if the IG is multiversal, then it follows the cubes must be, no?

Originally posted by leonidas
so how do you explain the fact that cubes were apparently drawn from different realities in IW and used to create a new universe and merge it with 616? sounds like the power of the cubes (found in different realities) were used to manipulate 616 . . . exactly the same way the IG did. if the IG is multiversal, then it follows the cubes must be, no?

What relevance does the cubes being from different realities have?

if they are from different realities and are being used to manipulate 616 continuity, then . . . it should follow they are multiversal. how do you explain away the fact that cubes from different realities could manipulate reality in 616?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.



Erasing Galactus from the Multi-verse while setting balance to the Multi-versal misalignment that would take place is beyond even LT evidently.

And they were going to do it simultaneously.

Now, could he erase Galactus if he didn't care about the repercussions...I don't see why not.


My personal opinion is this is PIS.

hey mr master, do u know anything of this "god-like" wolverine? where did he get his powers etc.? ive heard his powers rivel that of most of the cosmics........

Originally posted by leonidas
if they are from different realities and are being used to manipulate 616 continuity, then . . . it should follow they are multiversal. how do you explain away the fact that cubes from different realities could manipulate reality in 616?

Their power is derived from different realities but what relevance does that have? Many characters such as Quasar (quantum bands) Sue and Hyperstorm (Hyperspace) have powers that derive from alternate dimensions and can apply their powers in 616 or any other reality they find themselves in. It has no relevance. Explain why you think it does.

earlier you said:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Said cubes power couldnt be used to manipulate Earths S' reality and the other one its power is being applied to therefore it is still universal. Merely being able to apply your power in a different reality doesnt equate to multiversal.

"said cubes couldn't be used to manipulate earth-s' reality" because (presumeably?) the cubes came from a different reality, right?

the cubes that were used to affect 616 were FROM a different reality, no?

Originally posted by leonidas
earlier you said:



"said cubes couldn't be used to manipulate earth-s' reality" because (presumeably?) the cubes came from a different reality, right?

the cubes that were used to affect 616 were FROM a different reality, no?

I was saying the cube couldnt simultaneously exorcise control of earth s at a universal level and employ its power in another reality as well. Why? Because its max is universal scale manipulation. I wasnt referring to the cubes place of origin.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was saying the cube couldnt simultaneously exorcise control of earth s at a universal level and employ its power in another reality as well. Why? Because its max is universal scale manipulation. I wasnt referring to the cubes place of origin.

but you don't think that it's ability to universally control another reality makes it a multiversal power? by your definition, you need simultaneity of applied power across seperate universes to be truly multiversal? interesting.

answer me this: did the IG do something in IW that was different from what the cubes did? and if the IG was declared multiversal by . . . the powers that be, then doesn't it follow the cubes must be multiversal as well?

Originally posted by leonidas
but you don't think that it's ability to universally control another reality makes it a multiversal power? by your definition, you need simultaneity of applied power across seperate universes to be truly multiversal? interesting.

Go over to the Lucifer thread down below to see my definition of what multiversal power is. The one youre referring to is Mr Masters'.


Originally posted by leonidas
answer me this: did the IG do something in IW that was different from what the cubes did? and if the IG was declared multiversal by . . . the powers that be, then doesn't it follow the cubes must be multiversal as well?

Where was the IG declared multiversal?

Originally posted by leonidas


Cool. I take it that matters settled then.

I cant be bothered to argue the same issues in multiple threads, so im going to stick to the Lucifer one for now, get this whole mess sorted as i will and then i'll just post links in any other relevant thread that pops up subsequently

Originally posted by leonidas

what lucifer link?

Originally posted by galan7777777
what lucifer link?

Who said anything about a link?

I said Lucifer thread down below. Its on the first page of the forum.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Who said anything about a link?

I said Lucifer thread down below. Its on the first page of the forum.

but what amazing feats has lucifer done in comics?

Originally posted by galan7777777
but what amazing feats has lucifer done in comics?

Thats not the reason i directed Leonidas to that thread. We're not talking about Lucifer. Follow our exchange in this thread and then you'll see.

Originally posted by galan7777777
but what amazing feats has lucifer done in comics? All kinds of stuff.

She looks pretty dead in this pic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So how is that any different to what i just said?


The difference is that you didn't INCLUDE the FACT that when Beyonder said this:
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3912/beyonderonrachel3hc2.th.jpg
It was AFTER he had given Rachel ENOUGH Power that even She would be able to kill him.
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/8262/beyondermakesrachelgodlikexd2.th.jpg
So I'm not surprised that at the very least..the Mkraan Crystal(a Universal Destroyer at the time)would be able to affect him...even if it's just releasing the his energy which would intern create a Universe.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
A statement thats contradicted on panel and therefore cannot be treated as fact. Nothing on panel to show us its anything but hyperbole.

Your opinion..and your opinion alone.

If you wanna swallow that...I could care less...everyone else sees it, the way Marvel saw it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope.Cosmic cubes have the potential to allow a wielder to manipulate reality on a universal scale, that does NOT equate to making one supreme.

Cosmic Containment Units and sentient Cosmic Cubes are two seperate stories.

Cosmic Containment Units impose LIMITATIONS on themselves...and could possibly rival the IG.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3929/cosmiccubesareallpowerful1wc.th.jpg

Interesting..

How the heck did they CREATE a Universe then?

CREATING a Universe is beyond reality manipulation on a universal scale.

"reality manipulation on a universal scale"...would be warping a universe...Cosmic Containment Units actually created a Universe...and the issue suggested they created other Universes.

Magus might of created Universes...instead of just One Universe with the 5 Cosmic Cubes.
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8372/maguscreateduniversewccue9.th.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6025/maguscreateduniversewcc2gb2.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As stated, c cubes as standard have planetary level reality warping ability,

Actually Kubik can warp a Universe.

This is a battle between POST-Retcon Beyonder and Kubik.

Yes...this is the famous issue that RETCONNED Beyonder.

During this confrontation the Universe is POST-Retcon Beyonder.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9278/postbbattleskubikns0.th.jpg
Well what do you know...a "Planetary Level Reality Warper"...is turning a UNIVERSE into a sphere the size of his hand.
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2487/postbbattleskubik2gn8.th.jpg
Don't tell me...though this was the RETCON...there was another RETCON.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
however a single cube at full potential can manipulate reality on a universal scale,

So now Kubik is a Cube at FULL potential?

A single Cube can potentially rival the Infinity Gauntlet.
"The UNITS are ALL-POWERFUL, but simply REFUSE to break certain SELF-IMPOSED taboos"
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3929/cosmiccubesareallpowerful1wc.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mr M said a cube can make you supreme and i corrected him. Thats all.

You wish you could ever correct me in anything.


You posted your opinion with NO evidence.

I posted mine WITH On Panel Proof.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for multiversal in scope, well applying your power in another reality other than your own doesnt equate to a multiversal power.

Actually Magus was controlling TWO Universes from a Universe seperated from both.

That's Multi-versal now...and forever.

Originally posted by galan7777777
hey mr master, do u know anything of this "god-like" wolverine? where did he get his powers etc.? ive heard his powers rivel that of most of the cosmics........

That's taken as a joke.

Act as though you never heared that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Their power is derived from different realities but what relevance does that have?

Actually their power derives from the Beyonders.

Those Units just happen to be within those seperate realities.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was saying the cube couldnt simultaneously exorcise control of earth s at a universal level and employ its power in another reality as well.

Continue to pump garbage...

I'll pump scans that break it down.

From many Realities away
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/954/magusmanyrealitiesaway2ai8.th.jpg
Many Realities away...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2580/magusfaraway4qk.th.jpg
5 Cosmic Containment Units make a Duplicate of the 616 Universe
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/7572/cosmiccubesmakeduplicate0fv.th.jpg
5 Cosmic Containment Units begin to Merge the TWO Universes.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2931/616mergeuq2.th.jpg


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why? Because its max is universal scale manipulation. I wasnt referring to the cubes place of origin.

At MAX it can rival the Infinity Gauntlet.
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/3929/cosmiccubesareallpowerful1wc.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where was the IG declared multiversal?

If an INCOMPLETE IG can do this to the Ultimate Nullifier:
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/7936/igaboveun9wj.th.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9695/igaboveun25in.th.jpg

And the Ultimate Nullifier can do this to the Multi-verse:
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/932/2undestroysmultieternityinfini.th.jpg
And Remake it as easily as it Destroyed it like this:
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/893/3unremakesthemultiverse9jq.th.jpg
Don't tell me the UN isn't a Multi-versal Destroyer/Remaker:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5568/unismulticv0.th.jpg

What does that tell you?

Oh and the Cosmic Containment Units that Created a Duplicate of the 616 Universe, and then proceeded to Merg the TWO Universes from a seperate Universe.

Observe:

It took 5 Containment Units to do the above.

Now imagine 30 Cosmic Containment Units...the Goddess had that many...30.
Here the Goddess merges 30 Cosmic Containment Units...which equal to even greater power as a sum than individually(as when Magus used his 5)
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1842/cosmicegg30ccgi2.th.jpg

Here Silver Surfer and the Goddess acknowledge that the Infinity Gauntlet is a "Far More Potent Force" than even 30 Cosmic Containment Units(un-evolved Cosmic Cubes)and remember it only took 5 to create an exact duplicate of the 616 Universe...from scratch.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2227/igmorethan30ccmb2.th.jpg

LT has unlimited control of all power in all universes.
He is full control not even over the multiverse, but the Omniverse, which makes up all the multiverses.

That is where you are plain wrong. LT is judge of our multiverse. our multiverse is part of a large omniverse. The omniverse is run by TOAA/GOD. TOAA is a combination of jack kirby and stan lee. And if LT had unlimited control of all power in the multiverse, than he wouldn't have been usurped by Thanos with the HOTU, and not had to get into an argument over the Infinity Gauntlet, he could have just taken it away...

galactus

Originally posted by Broly92
Wolverine


http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=max0009jpgw1tb.jpg







****runs and hides***
I knew this pic would end up on this thread.

Well where does Galactus rank in the most powerful?

Pre-ret Beyonder pwns alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllll

marvel:

the one above all
wanda with chaos wave/full power franklin richards{perhaps}
roma the omniversal guardian
true beyonders
infinite being
the heart of the universe/full power franklin richards{maybe}
the living tribunal
dr strange with all artifacts and powers/reed with indefinate prep
infinite gauntlett
ultimate nullifier
eternity/infinite/death/phoenix force/entropy/apiphany/abraxas/genis with full power and entropy's support maybe even above them
inbetweener/star band{maybe}


DC:

the presence/the great beast
lucifer morningstar/micheal demiurgos/ellaine belloc
the spear of destiny
full power constantine/full power swamp thing/saint of killers with a good writer
full power spectre
parallex{the being not hal gordon}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
marvel:

the one above all
wanda with chaos wave/full power franklin richards{perhaps}
roma the omniversal guardian
true beyonders
infinite being
the heart of the universe/full power franklin richards{maybe}
the living tribunal
dr strange with all artifacts and powers/reed with indefinate prep
infinite gauntlett
ultimate nullifier
eternity/infinite/death/phoenix force/entropy/apiphany/abraxas/genis with full power and entropy's support maybe even above them
inbetweener/star band{maybe}


Galactus?
and if not, then why is inbetweener above galactus?
i can tell you dont know that much about some characters, from your list.

Aren't the infinites somewhere in the top tier of Marvel Cosmics? said to make the celestials pale.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If an INCOMPLETE IG can do this to the Ultimate Nullifier:
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/7936/igaboveun9wj.th.jpg
http://img426.imageshack.us/img426/9695/igaboveun25in.th.jpg

And the Ultimate Nullifier can do this to the Multi-verse:
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/932/2undestroysmultieternityinfini.th.jpg
And Remake it as easily as it Destroyed it like this:
http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/893/3unremakesthemultiverse9jq.th.jpg
Don't tell me the UN isn't a Multi-versal Destroyer/Remaker:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5568/unismulticv0.th.jpg

What does that tell you?

Oh and the Cosmic Containment Units that Created a Duplicate of the 616 Universe, and then proceeded to Merg the TWO Universes from a seperate Universe.

Observe:

It took 5 Containment Units to do the above.

Now imagine 30 Cosmic Containment Units...the Goddess had that many...30.
Here the Goddess merges 30 Cosmic Containment Units...which equal to even greater power as a sum than individually(as when Magus used his 5)
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1842/cosmicegg30ccgi2.th.jpg

Here Silver Surfer and the Goddess acknowledge that the Infinity Gauntlet is a "Far More Potent Force" than even 30 Cosmic Containment Units(un-evolved Cosmic Cubes)and remember it only took 5 to create an exact duplicate of the 616 Universe...from scratch.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2227/igmorethan30ccmb2.th.jpg


u have reason to believe what u say but let me demonstrate by an example the flaw in this type of logic being used in comic debates.


wolverine's claws pierced thanos's skin once and he has defeat firelord and hulk in a fair fight too not to mention killed magneto.thanos knocked about galactus who is a fundamental force of the universe like eternity and abraxas.hulk has the potential power of the entire universe and more. magneto is an alpha and will become a lower abstract one day. now abraxas was a threat to all realities so much infact that roma the omniversal guardian was worried. the only logical reason roma could be worried was if he cudnt do anything about the more powerwul abraxas. now that we have solidly established beyond a shadow of a doubt that abraxas is more powerful than the omniverse it also becomes logical that wolverine is more powerful than abraxas and hence the most powerful force in the omniverse. and the other examples i have given close the case for all the idiots here who cant read that wolverine is INDEED BEYOND THE OMNIVERSE! now stop this stupid argument.



now this is the type pf stuff that galactic storm is a master off. not forgetting what PIS or non cannon stuff is. the simplest and best way to look at powers is to include as little LINKS as possible and seeing both high level and low level feats. if u include the multiple linkages like i have u can easily DEDUCE that wolverine is beyond the omniverse. but thats not the case just like it isnt the case with the infinite gauntlett being beyond the multiverse or the ulitmate nulllifier for that matter. u should take average power levels, remember PIS and also look at the writers.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
u have reason to believe what u say but let me demonstrate by an example the flaw in this type of logic being used in comic debates.


wolverine's claws pierced thanos's skin once and he has defeat firelord and hulk in a fair fight too not to mention killed magneto.thanos knocked about galactus who is a fundamental force of the universe like eternity and abraxas.hulk has the potential power of the entire universe and more. magneto is an alpha and will become a lower abstract one day. now abraxas was a threat to all realities so much infact that roma the omniversal guardian was worried. the only logical reason roma could be worried was if he cudnt do anything about the more powerwul abraxas. now that we have solidly established beyond a shadow of a doubt that abraxas is more powerful than the omniverse it also becomes logical that wolverine is more powerful than abraxas and hence the most powerful force in the omniverse. and the other examples i have given close the case for all the idiots here who cant read that wolverine is INDEED BEYOND THE OMNIVERSE! now stop this stupid argument.



now this is the type pf stuff that galactic storm is a master off. not forgetting what PIS or non cannon stuff is. the simplest and best way to look at powers is to include as little LINKS as possible and seeing both high level and low level feats. if u include the multiple linkages like i have u can easily DEDUCE that wolverine is beyond the omniverse. but thats not the case just like it isnt the case with the infinite gauntlett being beyond the multiverse or the ulitmate nulllifier for that matter. u should take average power levels, remember PIS and also look at the writers.


*Slowy walks out of this Thread*

thats what i was about to do.

Originally posted by rotiart
That is where you are plain wrong. LT is judge of our multiverse. our multiverse is part of a large omniverse. The omniverse is run by TOAA/GOD. TOAA is a combination of jack kirby and stan lee. And if LT had unlimited control of all power in the multiverse, than he wouldn't have been usurped by Thanos with the HOTU, and not had to get into an argument over the Infinity Gauntlet, he could have just taken it away...

1st You said:
"if LT had unlimited control of all power in the multiverse, than he wouldn't have been usurped by Thanos with the HOTU"

I say:
If I (LT) am usurped by a weaker guy (Thanos) with a shotgun, (HOTU), it doesn't mean that I am not stronger than the weaker guy.

2nd You said:
"and not had to get into an argument over the Infinity Gauntlet, he could have just taken it away... "

I say:
Even if he was more powerful than the gauntlet, if he knew it would have destroyed the universe while he took it, the entire purpose of getting it away from Thanos would have been defeated.
It didn't mean that he couldn't.

.....

If LT had the power to strip the infinity gems of their power, he wouldn't have had to discuss the matter and argue adam warlock out of having them. The mere fact that he treated warlock with respect, and asked that he give up the power (lt knowing adam would give it up) shows that the gauntlet is on LT's level.

IF LT could take the power from warlock or thanos for that matter, don't you think he would have done that. And LT only ever gets involved when the matter itself can spread into the multiverse. What does that tell you.

adam saw through time and space to mention that they had fought over this many times already. hence if they had fought many times already through time, then lt would not have the power to take it from warlock. But warlock saw the devastation he caused, and chose to give up his power.

Maybe he did what he did, strictly because it was already destined to happen that way, and he knew it.

Also, even if the HOTU or the IG are more powerful than LT, it still doesn't mean that he isn't the most powerful "Entity" around.

They are objects. Artifacts.