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Enlighten me

Which Heaven/Paradise? There are so many.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me

To start your enlightenment training, I'd reccomned that first, we learn how to post questions in thrads that have similar subject matters. For example:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t414460.html] Is Heaven Hard to get into?

Please. We encourage conversation and debate in this forum, not question-ansewer or show and tell threads.

Originally posted by Alliance
To start your enlightenment training, I'd reccomned that first, we learn how to post questions in thrads that have similar subject matters. For example:

Is Heaven Hard to get into?

Please. We encourage conversation and debate in this forum, not question-ansewer or show and tell threads.

Be careful Alliance, not to get in trouble for impersonation a MOD.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Be careful Alliance, not to get in trouble for impersonation a MOD.

Is that an offical crime? I'm just sick of "i have a question and I cnat figure it out so I'm oging to make a new thread and make toher people figure things out for me and then I'm oging to get really angsty when I don't like their answer" threads.

Originally posted by Alliance
Is that an offical crime? I'm just sick of "i have a question and I cnat figure it out so I'm oging to make a new thread and make toher people figure things out for me and then I'm oging to get really angsty when I don't like their answer" threads.

OK then, I apologize.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me

Why don't you ask god that one, hes the one that lets people in?

I think maybe you need a passport, a bible wouldn't hurt, oh and make sure you bring a bottle of wine as a thank you gift if he decides to let you in.

Originally posted by gordomuchacho
Why don't you ask god that one, hes the one that lets people in?

I think maybe you need a passport, a bible wouldn't hurt, oh and make sure you bring a bottle of wine as a thank you gift if he decides to let you in.

I'll co-sign the wine, but not as a gift.

The rest is strictly optional.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me

God very well may exist, but probably not as a person who looks down on his, creates humans, and controls every last thing that happens on this world. So God isn't a very accurate term... Force is the only accurate thing I can think of, so I guess the Jedi got it right...

And if you had to believe in God to go to Heaven, then you're fate is predecided when you're born. According to Christianity, of course. But Christianity has one fatal flaw. Among others.

Originally posted by Illuminati
God very well may exist, but probably not as a person who looks down on his, creates humans, and controls every last thing that happens on this world. So God isn't a very accurate term... Force is the only accurate thing I can think of, so I guess the Jedi got it right...

And if you had to believe in God to go to Heaven, then you're fate is predecided when you're born. According to Christianity, of course. But Christianity has one fatal flaw. Among others.

It isn't predecided, christinaity believes that god gave us free will, so we choose our down fate, not god. He is also all-knowing, which means he does know eventually what our fate is gonna be. Those statements contradict each other about god, however he defies logic and reasoning as well as science. It doesn't make much sense, but because our minds are incapable of understanding and perceiving logic like this, it is impossible to comprehend.

Originally posted by gordomuchacho
It isn't predecided, christinaity believes that god gave us free will, so we choose our down fate, not god. He is also all-knowing, which means he does know eventually what our fate is gonna be. Those statements contradict each other about god, however he defies logic and reasoning as well as science. It doesn't make much sense, but because our minds are incapable of understanding and perceiving logic like this, it is impossible to comprehend.

Debating flaw: Adhering to something even though it can be proven false by logic and reason.

You actually did the work for me, though you attempting to skirt around it by saying that "God defies logic and reason and science." Fair enough, but if that contradiction exists, we as human beings certainly don't transcend logic and reason. And we posess (presumably God-given) reason and logic, so why are we asked to go against it so completely? And how is it that we aren't pre-destined if "God" knows our path in life?

Nothing factual (even more complex theories such as the Uncertainty Principle of quantum mechanics) points to anything in the history of existence as having any sort of free will and being anything other than utterly determined in our nature. It's handy to think of ourselves as having free will (for purposes of law-making and self-motivation in life, among other things) but unless someone's willing to set aside their human faculties of reason (many are), it's reasonable to assume that if we do indeed have free will of some sort, we have no way of knowing it, whereas what we do know points to the contrary.

....didn't mean to attack you so thoroughly, but the wording of your theory there left me more than a little perturbed. You're more than welcome to believe in your God (for my own part, I'm a bit of an agnostic, believing in a creating force but nothing like the Judea-Christian God figure) but I simply felt a need to present an argument for the opposing side.

....

And to be serious about attempting to answer the question posed in this thread, it largely depends on the religion. Most Western traditions have a concrete Heaven, and belief in God is a prerequisite for some, others not so much. Most Eastern traditions believe in something akin to Enlightenment rather than a physical Heaven-state, so the answer would be "No" to those.

Scripture says "The Spirit returns to god that gave it"........We all go BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM........There IS NO HELL!!

OK, got it ...good...

What is this 'Heaven' that you speak of?

Originally posted by lord xyz
What is this 'Heaven' that you speak of?

Your girl friend when she says yes to your proposal of marriage.

wOw! that's long! you actually had time to type all all that?

and i agree.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me

The wise man makes his own heaven while the foolish man creates his own hell here and hereafter.

"Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?"

All philosophical Does-God-Exist/Define-God issues aside, the thread question itself is interesting from its own POV.

Typically, technically (and worded simply), God made Heaven, and Heaven is God's main crib. So the question is basically implying that the "House" exists but not necessarily the "Builder." Or perhaps, the Builder exists too (that's why the House is there), but for whatever reason, the questioner is asking if one needs to acknowledge the Builder's existence.

Originally posted by mahasattva
How is it possible for someone to write his own obituary centuries after his own death? The above shows that these books that are allegedly written by Moses were actually written many centuries after his death when even no trace of his tomb was left. The fact that no one knew of the exact place of his burial is also an indication that he was either a legendary an mythological figure or was not important enough for Israelis to keep track of his tomb or make him a shrine. Even if there ever existed a person with the name of Moses, all the stories attributed to him are fabrications of the later priests who forged the entire Bible as it has been demonstrated by many modern Biblical scholars.

So neither Judaism nor Christianity were originally monotheistic religions. Then who is the father of monotheism? To whom shall we give the credit for this new theology that inseminated intolerance and is responsible for many wars amongst the nations as each claimed to be the chosen people of the most-High and the only ones with the truth?
Moses has been considered the most important prophet by Jews since the their coming to Israel as evidenced in the rest of the Bible. Perhaps you should know what you are talking about before you say it. Second, it is entirely possible that Moses did not write the entire Pentateuch, it is not un-Christian to think that. But I assure Moses existed and his successor Joshua has been proven to exist. Finally, Pentateuch origins have been dated to around 1800BC, when Moses lived. Besides, the Jews are well known for keeping immaculate genealogical records that easily trace Moses to Abraham. Also, the exodus of the Jews from Egypt is a proven fact. It is logical to assume that they had a leader. The Jews knew that leader to have been Moses because they followed him. I makes perfect sense that the leader of the Jewish people would write the law. It must also be noted that God frequently speaks of himself in the third person. You need to start basing your skepticism in some semblance of fact rather than biased and illogical conjecture.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Scripture says "The Spirit returns to god that gave it"........We all go BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM........There IS NO HELL!!

OK, got it ...good...
A simpler answer than JIA's is:
You are right. We all return to God ... then he decides where you go. Heaven or Hell?

In relation to the title-question:
Every religious person I've ever met (in person) has said so....

Originally posted by Alliance
Is that an offical crime? I'm just sick of "i have a question and I cnat figure it out so I'm oging to make a new thread and make toher people figure things out for me and then I'm oging to get really angsty when I don't like their answer" threads.

Umm yeah, that wasn't what I was doing, and I suggest you don't assume, you know what they say about those that assume....
This was going to be a debate thread, you need to chill

AMEEN ^^

He judges justly. No one is innocent for "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". That is the just part.
The love part is the my favorite. Anyone, no matter what they have done can be forgiven and cleanse of their sin by the blood of Jesus. Thus, when Judgement Day comes they will be found innocent because their sins have been washed away. Jesus went to the cross to bear OUR sin FOR US so that we can come to the Father. If you have not been forgiven, all your sins, no matter how minor, will be plain and obvious to God and you will be punished for them.

Originally posted by Nellinator
He judges justly. No one is innocent for "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". That is the just part.
The love part is the my favorite. Anyone, no matter what they have done can be forgiven and cleanse of their sin by the blood of Jesus. Thus, when Judgement Day comes they will be found innocent because their sins have been washed away. Jesus went to the cross to bear OUR sin FOR US so that we can come to the Father. If you have not been forgiven, all your sins, no matter how minor, will be plain and obvious to God and you will be punished for them.

All life is good and evil. The idea that we are born of sin is an insult to the beauty of life. I understand what you are saying because I used to believe it myself, but it is a lie that has been told for thousands of years. It blinds people from the truth that they have the potential to be greater then the class they were born into. If people could do and be what they wanted, then the people in power would not be able to control and use the masses.

A holding place???? LOL....Don't think that is taught.....Jesus never taught that.....And as I have said the word hell/sheol..etc. only means death, nothing more...Gehenna was an actual place where garbage and the dead were burned, and that fire was always going...(worms never dies??)...garbage dump!!

1.. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15: 8; II Kings 17: 10; II Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32; 19: 2.


2.. Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.

The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.


Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death? Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.. Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.

Actual photos of hell.

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/index.htm

And again, why didn't Moses mention it when he recieved those 10 commandments??........He NEVER NEVER EVER...NEVER NEVER EVER did......Not once, not twice......NEVER!......Never even hinted at it!! ...ever ever ever........never......

why??

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Mahasattva, I have an EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT time believing anything that you have written because it egregiously CONTRADICTS the holy Bible--God's Word.

Can you provide chapter and verse for your statements? I can show you chapter and verse for EVERYTHING that I write.



I agree.

Originally posted by debbiejo
A holding place???? LOL....Don't think that is taught.....Jesus never taught that.....And as I have said the word hell/sheol..etc. only means death, nothing more...Gehenna was an actual place where garbage and the dead were burned, and that fire was always going...(worms never dies??)...garbage dump!!

1.. Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15: 8; II Kings 17: 10; II Chron. 28: 3; Jer. 7: 31, 32; 19: 2.


2.. Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.

The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.


Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews. Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death? Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.. Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.

Actual photos of hell.

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/index.htm

And again, why didn't Moses mention it when he recieved those 10 commandments??........He NEVER NEVER EVER...NEVER NEVER EVER did......Not once, not twice......NEVER!......Never even hinted at it!! ...ever ever ever........never......

why??
Jesus of Nazareth,...

...For You (God the Father) will not leave my (Jesus) soul in Hades (Hell),...

...he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His (Jesus') soul was not left in Hades (Hell)...

Jesus soul was not left in Hades (Hell) because God the Father raised Him (Jesus) from the dead. Hell is the place of the dead who die in their sins. Jesus died for the world's sin and thus was consigned to Hades (Hell) in our place (i.e. for us). He suffered the consequence of our sins for us so that we would not have to. I am not going to Hell because I have put my faith in Jesus; I asked Jesus to save me from my sins. Now everything that Jesus did for me is credited to me as it were. It is like someone being put on death row and executed for your crimes so that you don't have to die. Well that's what Jesus did for the world. Jesus suffered our sin penalty so that we could be set free from it. But the simple condition that God the Father requires is that we admit to Him that we are sinners and then personally ask Jesus Christ to be our Savior. It is so simple all it requires is child-like faith to do..

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Mahasattva, I have an EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT time believing anything that you have written because it egregiously CONTRADICTS the holy Bible--God's Word.

Can you provide chapter and verse for your statements? I can show you chapter and verse for EVERYTHING that I write.



The bible is not all truth.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The bible is not all truth.

Yes it is. You are not the first person to say that. Millions among millions of people have tried to prove that the Bible is false and guess what; none of them succeeded because the Bible is 100% true from Gensis to Revelation.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Mahasattva, I have an EXCEEDINGLY DIFFICULT time believing anything that you have written because it egregiously CONTRADICTS the holy Bible--God's Word.



This is getting beyond ridiculous.

Originally posted by Alliance


This is getting beyond ridiculous.

Mind backing up your word?

I've backed it up for quite a while here thank you.

1. Chirstians do not have a monopoly on religion.

2. JIA spends more time spamming than posting because everyone already attacks what he says.

3. There are many different versions of the bible, who says that his is right, let alone Christianity.

4. JIA posts and endless cycle of self-supporting statements that tumble down as soon as you even look at them.

Thanks for copying and pasting some wonderfully irrelevant passages that in no way prove anyhting.

If you'd like to actually back up your claim, I'll go through this exercise once again.

ARGUMENT FROM SUPERIORITY
(1) If God does not exist, then I am an inferior being, since I am not "special" in a cosmic sense.
(2) But I am superior because I am a Christian.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PERFECTION
(1) If there are absolute moral standards, then God exists.
(2) Atheists say that there are no absolute moral standards.
(3) But that's because they don't want to admit to being sinners.
(4) Therefore, there are absolute moral standards.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM HUMAN NECESSITY
(1) Atheists say that they don't need God.
(2) Which just goes to show that they need God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (I)
(1) Intellectually, I know that the existence of God is impossible, or vastly improbable.
(2) But I must put on the appearance of being cool and intellectual in front of my Christian apologist peers.
(3) Therefore, I must pretend that (1) is false.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM HIDDEN LOGIC (II)
(1) Atheists say that God doesn't exist.
(2) But they only say that because they want to look cool and intellectual in front of their peers.
(3) They don't fool me!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INDULGENCE
(1) Atheists like to think that they can control their emotional desires.
(2) But they're Atheists, so they can't.
(3) Therefore, Atheists feel the need to indulge in whatever they feel like without worrying about committing sin.
(4) This just goes to show how they need God in their lives.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM HATE
(1) Some Atheists hate Christians and Christianity.
(2) That's why they don't believe in God.
(3) Pathetic, aren't they?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM QUENTIN SMITH
(1) Quentin Smith says that God does not exist.
(2) But God does exist.
(3) Therefore, Quentin Smith cannot be accepted as an expert on the matter, because he is wrong.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EVIL SPIRITS
(1) I've just had contact with evil spirits.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND
(1) I don't want to work for a living.
(2) I don't want to pay taxes.
(3) I can get gullible fundamentalists to send me money.
(4) I can use religious exemption claims to tie the IRS up in court.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM KENT HOVIND'S CHALLENGE
(1) Kent Hovind offers $250,000 (which may or may not exist) to anyone who can demonstrate evolution (defined as a natural, acausal origin of the universe) to a reasonable doubt (meaning with 100% certainty, allowing for no other possibilities whatsoever) in front of a neutral committee (handpicked by Hovind himself) and according to certain criteria (carefully worded so as to rule out any possibility whatsoever of the challenge ever being met).
(2) No Atheist has ever met this challenge.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INSANITY
(1) No sane person could have thought up Christianity.
(2) Therefore, it must be true
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (abridged)
(1) Do you agree with the utterly trivial proposition X?
(2) Atheist: of course.
(3) How about the slightly modified proposition X'?
(4) Atheist: Um, no, not really.
(5) Good. Since we agree, how about Y? Is that true?
(6) Atheist: No! And I didn't agree with X'!
(7) With the truths of these clearly established, surely you agree that Z is true as well?
(8) Atheist: No. So far I have only agreed with X! Where is this going, anyway?
(9) I'm glad we all agree.....
....
(37) So now we have used propositions X, X', Y, Y', Z, Z', P, P', Q and Q' to arrive at the obviously valid point R. Agreed?
(38) Atheist: Like I said, so far I've only agreed with X. Where is this going?
....
(81) So we now conclude from this that propositions L'', L''' and J'' are true. Agreed?
(82) I HAVEN'T AGREED WITH ANYTHING YOU'VE SAID SINCE X! WHERE IS THIS GOING?
....
(177) ...and it follows that proposition HRV, SHQ'' and BTU' are all obviously valid. Agreed?
(178)
(179) Therefore, God exists.

MR. GOODSALT'S ARGUMENT (ARGUMENT FROM GENERAL INQUIRY)
(1) Question for Atheist population:
(2) Your answer is wrong.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM ORIGINALITY
(1) I have written the following to demonstrate the existence of God.
(2)
(3) Therefore, God exists.

PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM LIMITED VOCABULARY
(1) You use lots of big words.
(2) Therefore, I cannot possibly be expected to understand your refutation of my position.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

PEACOCK ARGUMENT FROM SELECTIVE MEMORY
(1)
(2)
(3)
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
(8)
(9)
(10) Atheist, you never answered my question.
(11) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE ECONOMICS
(1) Protestant Christian nations are rich.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL SANITY
(1) I've had religious experiences that can't be explained unless I'm insane or God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INSTITUTIONAL LONGETIVITY
(1) The Roman Catholic Church has been around for a long time.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY
(1) I have proof that God exists.
(2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM "THE MATRIX"
(1) We cannot prove that we don't live in a Matrix-like world.
(2) Therefore we cannot know reality.
(3) If reality is contingent, then everything is possible.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

Originally posted by Alliance
Thanks for copying and pasting some wonderfully irrelevant passages that in no way prove anyhting.

If you'd like to actually back up your claim, I'll go through this exercise once again.

ARGUMENT FROM LOTS OF BOOKS
(1) The Bible has lots of books written by lots of authors over a long period of time.
(2) Through centuries of vigorous apologetics we've been able to forge a more or less coherent plot for the whole Bible.
(3) It is beyond human ability for so many authors over so long a time to write so many books from which we could hammer such a plot.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (I) (argument from sacrifice)
(1) The Bible said Jesus died for our sins.
(2) No other religious text describes a god that died for our sins!
(3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM UNLIKE OTHER RELIGIONS (II) (argument from resurrection)
(1) The Bible said Jesus rose from the dead.
(2) No other religious text describes a god that rose from the dead!
(3) Therefore, the Christian God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BRUTE FORCE
(1)
(2) Therefore, the theory of evolution is wrong.
(3) Therefore, creationism is right.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM TROY
(1) There is little archeological evidence for the events in Exodus.
(2) But look at Troy! It is discovered when people thought the Iliad was only a story! So who knows if there would be a time evidence for Exodus was discovered?
(3) Therefore the Exodus actually happened.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BIBLICAL PROPHECY (I)
(1) The book of Daniel made some prophecies.
(2) The prophecy was later fulfilled by other records in the Book of Daniel.
(3) The prophecy came true!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SHAME
(1) The Bible showed a group of people performing embarassing actions.
(2) It must be true if the book describes negative events.
(3) The Bible is describing historical events.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EQUAL VALUE (PC argument II)
(1) Evolution and the scientific worldview is a worldview. Similarly, the biblical worldview is a worldview.
(2) You are not discriminating against our worldview are you?
(3) The Biblical worldview is as good as the scientific worldview.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MODERATION (often employed by liberals)
(1) The Creationist side occupies an extreme side of the spectrum.
(2) Similarly, the Atheist side occupies another extreme side of the spectrum.
(3) The liberals are in between.
(4) Therefore, the liberal position on God is the most correct.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CHICK
(1) I have all these cool Jesus comics.
(2) I also think Eternal is smart with all those great arguments.
(3) Those comics sure convinced me!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EVIDENTIAL ASSERTION (a.k.a. "Henry Morris Argument"
(1) God exists.
(2) Therefore all physical evidence (fossil record etc) must show this.
(3) Therefore it does.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF MEANNESS
(1) If God didn't exist, it would be mean of him to make me believe he did!
(2) God isn't mean.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WE ALL GOT FAITH
(1) We all believe in something.
(2) Therefore we all have faith.
(3) My faith in God is no different from your faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COOLNESS
(1) That's really cool.
(2) God must have done that.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WTC, aka ARGUMENT FROM TERRORISM (III)
(1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
(2) An intact Bible was found in the ruins.
(3) No, wait, it turns out it was a dictionary.
(4) Oh, well, God exists anyway.

ARGUMENT FROM COLLEGE FUNDING (usable by parents only)
(1) You believe in God.
(2) If I ever find out that you don't believe in God, you won't get any money for college!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SNOWFLAKES
(1) Out of 3,300 pictures of snow-crystals catalogued no two are exactly alike. Each has 6 points crossing at a 60 degree angle. If one is like a fern it has 6 out-pointing leaves; if like a windmill, it has 6 sails; if like a starfish, 6 ribs; or if like a fir tree, 6 stems with plumes set in perfect symmetry. This makes 3 distinct triangles to each flake. The Hebrew word for snow equals 333 (Hebrew letters stand for numbers).
(2) Could it not be that God has set His symbol of the Triune God in each flake? The average snow storm produces about 1000 billion crystals.
(3) Only an intelligent being could design so many forms.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CUSTODY (used by the parents of a friend of mine)
(1) We have legal custody of your son.
(2) If you don't act as though the Christian God existed, then we won't let you see him.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM FIDEISM, aka MARTIN GARDNER'S ARGUMENT
(1) Atheists are absolutely right. There is no logical reason to believe God exists.
(2) But he makes me feel good anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PEPPER'S PHILOSOPHY CLASS, aka THE ENERGY ARGUMENT
(1) Things that exist have energy.
(2) Energy is alive.
(3) All living things are made from energy.
(4) Therefore, God Exists.

Originally posted by Alliance
Thanks for copying and pasting some wonderfully irrelevant passages that in no way prove anyhting.

If you'd like to actually back up your claim, I'll go through this exercise once again.

This is getting repeatative

ARGUMENT FROM SONGS
(1) The song "America the Beautiful" has the line "God shed his grace on thee."
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM APOLOGETICS WEBPAGES
(1) I was surfing the Net and came across this really cool webpage of apologetics.
(2) Their arguments were stunning. I couldn't refute them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COMFORT
(1) All kinds of people have found comfort in religion.
(2) That means there must be something there to give comfort to them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BILL O'REILLY
(1) Atheism is challenging this country's Christian roots!
(2) We are Christians!
(3) We will make a big stink about this, and not let Atheists win!
(4) We will win because God is on our side!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EXISTENTIAL LONELINESS
(1) This can't be all there is to existence.
(2) I mean it's so horrible, pointless, brutal and nasty.
(3) It's all so depressing.
(4) I'm lonely.
(5) There has to be something else out there.
(6) I mean it, there just has to be.
(7) THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE OUT THERE!
(8) AGGGRRG!!! THERE JUST HAS TO BE!!!!
(9) God! He can be out there for me.
(10) I'm not so lonely now!
(11) Yay!
(12) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SINS I LIKE, aka PERCHANCE'S SISTER'S ARGUMENT (IV)
(1) I don't like abortion.
(2) But this is just my opinion.
(3) I want my opinion backed up with facts.
(4) But in the absence of facts, morals will do.
(5) Christians say abortion is a sin! Yeah! I have allies!
(6) But for a sin to exist and Christians to be right, God must exist.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN SOLIPSISM
(1) Nothing but Jesus is real.
(2) See #1.

The ARGUMENT FROM THE THRONE ROOM
(1) Would you stand in the presence of a mighty king and demand that he prove he exists?
(2) No?
(3) That's what you're doing with God, you arrogant bastards.
(4) I don't CARE that you can't see him!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
(1) I couldn't imagine not believing in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WOW
(1) "When I look into the sky and see all the pretty stars, all those galaxies..."
(2) Wow.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ARMCHAIR PSYCHOANALYSIS
(1) You say there's no God?
(2) Ah, someone calling themselves Christian must have really hurt you in the past.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE IGNORED
(1) Dembski, Behe and Plantinga are ignored by mainstream intellectuals.
(2) Only a fear of the truth could explain this.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CHRISTIAN EXPERTS ARE NOT IGNORED
(1) Mainstream intellectuals are paying some attention to Dembski, Behe and Plantinga.
(2) Only a growing recognition of the truth could explain this.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COUNTERFACTUAL EVIDENCE
(1) You claim the evidence for Jesus' divinity is non-existent.
(2) But if there was lots of evidence, you would still not be convinced.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM UNSEEN MIRACLES
(1) Atheists wouldn't believe in God even if He showed up and performed a miracle for them.
(2) See! There was a miracle right over there! Didn't you see it?
(3) No?
(4) You must be an Atheist. Therefore, you cannot see miracles.
(5) But miracles happen. You just can't see them.
(6) Likewise, God exists. You just can't see Him, because you are so determined not to.
(7) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WIND
(1) You believe in wind.
(2) But you can't see it.
(3) God's the same way.
(4) It IS TOO analogous!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WARREN ROBINETT
(1) There's a secret message in the video game "Adventure."
(2) It reveals that the game was Created By Warren Robinett.
(3) It's the same way with the world.
(4) Look for the secret messages, and you will find the World's Creator.
(5) Therefore, God Exists.

ARGUMENT FROM OFFENSIVENESS, aka GOODY2SHOES' ARGUMENT
(1) You keep making statements that I think are generalizations, hypocritical, and bigoted.
(2) I will only agree to stay if you stop that.
(3)
(4) You're still offending me because of .
(5)
(6) I'm offended!
(7)
(8) This conversation is just the two of us. I think we should stop this conversation.
(9)
(10) WOW! WHAT A BIGOT! I'm leaving!
(11) I have a spiritual victory.
(12) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (II), aka TERCEL'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) I have a large number of arguments for God.
(2) There is a small chance that at least one of them is true.
(3) Using voodoo probability calculations, this means that there is a much greater chance that all of them are true taken together!
(4) And this ISN'T just the mathematical version of the Ontological Proof; I'm a real mathematician and you obviously can't understand this proof because you don't know as much about math as I do.
(5) Oh, and don't confuse things by mentioning how many Atheistic arguments there are, and the probability of each of them being correct...
(6) Or the fact that I basically pulled the probability of each of my arguments being correct out of my ass...
(7) And admit that I know more about math than you, and you'll see that...
(8) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES
(1) One time, I was in deep emotional pain.
(2) I prayed to God, and felt His presence.
(3) You aren't going to deny my emotional pain, are you?
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ABUSING THE BODY
(1) One time, I fasted for three days straight, prayed on my knees for hours, and didn't sleep, either.
(2) At the end of that time, God answered me.
(3) You see, you just have to mortify the flesh and accept the things of the spirit in order to meet God.
(4) No, there is no possibility that it was a hallucination!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NOT-BELIEVING
(1) The New Testament says people like you would question us.
(2) You question us.
(3) Therefore the Bible is true.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BANANAS (RAY COMFORT'S ARGUMENT)
(1) Bananas have many characteristics that make them attractive as primate food.
(2) They're so good that they must have been designed, just like Coke cans.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM METEORS (PAT ROBERTSON'S ARGUMENT)
(1) God hates gay people.
(2) God is merciful.
(3) Disney World held a Gay Day parade.
(4) God could punish Disney World by sending hurricanes, earthquakes, and possibly a meteor to Florida.
(5) God didn't, thus proving both postulates 1 and 2.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COAL MINERS (I)
(1) A bunch of miners got trapped.
(2) A bunch of people worked around the clock for a week to rescue them.
(3) They were all found alive.
(4) It must have been a miracle!
(5) Only God could have done that.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COAL MINERS (II) (aka YOU ONLY HEAR FROM THE SURVIVORS (I))
(1) A bunch of miners got trapped.
(2) A bunch of people worked hard to rescue them.
(3) One was found alive.
(4) He thanked God for his survival.
(5) Only God could have done that.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM AIRPLANE CRASH (aka YOU ONLY HEAR FROM THE SURVIVORS (II))
(1) An airplane I was on crashed, killing most passengers.
(2) I survived!
(3) It was a MIRACLE!
(4) Only God could have done that.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM YOUTH GROUP MINISTER
(1) God is awesome!
(2) Like, totally, dude!
(3) Therefore, God, like, exists and stuff.

ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INABILITY
(1) The Bible says Jesus turned water into wine.
(2) Can you turn water into wine?
(3) No? Well there ya go.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL ABILITY
(1) I prayed to God, and then lifted a car off my trapped puppy.
(2) I couldn't have done that without God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE OPPOSITION
(1) Satan is bad.
(2) You don't want to be on Satan's side, do you?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE OPPOSITION AS USED BY A YOUTH GROUP MINISTER
(1) Satan really sucks, dude.
(2) You don't wanna, like, be like Satan, right dude?
(3) Therefore God, like, exists and stuff. Totally.

ARGUMENT FROM BUFFALO, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (VII)
(1) The Indians used every part of the buffalo.
(2) A creature we can use every part of couldn't have just randomly evolved!
(3) It had to be created specifically for us!
(4) Therefore, God exists, and spent his early years churning out buffalo.

ARGUMENT FROM DENTAL OPPORTUNITY
(1) Bite me.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DENTAL OPPORTUNITY, ACCEPTED
(1) Bite me.
(2) OW! YOU BIT ME!
(3) I'm being persecuted!!
(4) Therefore, God exists!

ARGUMENT FROM NEW AGEYNESS
(1) If enough people just believe, God will exist.
(2) Lots of people have been believing for a very long time.
(3) Therefore, surely by NOW, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ROUNDNESS, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (VIII)
(1) Isn't it amazing how perfectly round the planets are?
(2) Someone sure must have been in control of that "big bang" in order for them to shape up like that!
(3) Just place a stick of dynamite under a huge rock. You'll see that the explosion does not produce perfectly round smaller rocks.
(4) Therefore, God exists.
(optional)
(3a) Atheist: The planets are round because of gravity.
(3b) But who made gravity?!?!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM FAITH IN THE OBVIOUS
(1) You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, don't you?
(2) See! Atheists have faith too!
(3) Just like I have faith in Jesus.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM IMPLIED BEAUTY, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (IX)
(1) If you evolved, you'd be pretty ugly.
(2) Look how beautiful you are, and the world that is around you.
(3) Only God could have made you so beautiful.
(4) I don't care that beauty is totally subjective, you are beautiful in God's eyes!
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BRAINWASHING
(1) Atheists claim Christians have been brainwashed by churches.
(2) We can just as easily say that they have been brainwashed by secular colleges & universities in their futile thinking, and secular reasoning.
(3) Your brainwashing keeps you from the Truth.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM COMMUNISM
(1) All communists are Atheists.
(2) All communists are bad; haven't you watched the 6 o'clock news?
(3) Therefore they are wrong.
(4) Since the moral majority is theist and non-communist they are good.
(5) Therefore they are right.
(6) This argument does so make sense!
(7) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM GOOD AND BAD BEHAVIOR
(1) Sometimes I do good things and sometimes I do bad things.
(2) When I do something good this PROVES that God, my Guardian Angel etc. are helping me to be good.
(3) Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord! Oh God help me to be strong and steadfast against temptation 'til I die so that You God will not in Your infinite mercy, send me to Hell.
(4) When I do something bad this PROVES that the Devil has tempted me to do EVIL.
(5) Whatever I do it proves that either God or the Devil is real.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BEER (III)
(1) Real men like beer.
(2) God allowed real men to make beer.
(3) Therefore, God is real, and likes beer.

Does anyone else think that this qualifies as spam?

ARGUMENT FROM FEELING GOD'S PRESENCE
(1) Atheists just haven't truly felt God's presence yet.
(2) If they had ever felt God's presence, they would not be Atheists.
(3) Theists have truly felt God's presence.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE
(1) Doesn't it just make more sense that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good deity created the world out of nothingness, from magic, essentially, and then punished us for eating a piece of fruit, and then incarnated himself in human flesh and came down to shed his own blood so he could break his own rules, and then went through hell on a temporary basis and then went back into the sky and promised to come back and take everyone who believed in him to this heaven no one has ever seen?
(2) Well, doesn't it?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE, ADDENDUM
(1) Atheist: No it doesn't.
(2) Theist: See, you're confusing the issue again! Think Simple and Sensible!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN (I)
(1) Scientific American published an article that shows creationism is nonsense.
(2) The first editor of Scientific American was a Christian.
(3) Therefore, whoever wrote that article is a traitor and a liar.
(4) Besides, Scientific American didn't hire a creationist in the 70s, so they're obviously trying to persecute Christians.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN (II)
(1) Answers in Genesis copied the full text of an article from Scientific American.
(2) Scientific American sent one email to Answers in Genesis saying that they don't necessarily want their articles distributed for free in the internet by just anyone.
(3) See? Scientific American persecutes Christians!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PEPPERED MOTHS
(1) Science textbooks still use the "peppered moths" to prove evolution.
(2) Atheist says that he has never seen a textbook which claims anything of the sort, in fact the only place he hears about peppered moths is from creationist websites.
(3) Obviously the Atheist has no clue what he's talking about then.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM GOD IS LIKE A RADIO SIGNAL (aka ARGUMENT FROM AUDITORY HALLUCINATIONS)
(1) There are many radio signals floating around your head all the time.
(2) God is on one of them.
(3) You just have to listen to the right signal.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM AGNOSTICISM IN INDIA
(1)
(2) Would you call your agnostic experiences agnostic if you had been raised in India?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BESTSELLERDOM
(1) The Bible is the best-selling work in history.
(2) Now, just because it's popular doesn't mean it's the Word of God.
(3) But there's not much evidence to suggest it's not.
(4)
(5) Therefore, God exists.

MODIFIED TRILEMMA ARGUMENT
(1) Jesus was either lord, liar, or lunatic.
(2) Can you PROVE He was a liar or lunatic?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM OTHERWISE THERE WOULD BE ANARCHY
(1) There has to be an objective truth to the universe, and humans have to be able to access it.
(2) Otherwise, there would be anarchy everywhere.
(3) No courts or governments or anything.
(4)
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DIVINE RIGHT
(1) God saves the queen.
(2) The queen hasn't died.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SQUARE CIRCLES
(1) There is no such thing as a square circle.
(2) God is not a square circle.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM DICTATORSHIP
(1) Dictators do not believe in God.
(2) Dictators are wrong.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM TERROR (MARTIN LUTHER'S ARGUMENT)
(1) The lightning storm filled me with the terror of God's wrath.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MEANING
(1) Nothing has meaning without God.
(2) I mean...
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM SEMANTIC UNCERTAINTY
(1) Atheists can't quite agree on the exact definition of Atheism.
(2) Therefore all Atheists are wrong.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM TROUBLESOMENESS
(1) God really, really bothers me.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

WAYSON'S ARGUMENT
(1) Scientists generally accept the theory of evolution.
(2) I don't.
(3) Therefore, they are lying or fabricating their data.
(4) Therefore, God Exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NEGATIVE THEOLOGY, or THAT'S ONE REALLY BIG HOLE YOU'VE GOT THERE IN YOUR GROUND OF BEING
(1) We live in a world of pain and suffering.
(2) It seems that God is completely and utterly absent from our world.
(3) This complete and utter absence constitutes an infinite void.
(4) Only an infinite being could create the infinite void that we experience.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM EXCESSIVE STUPIDITY
(1) Some people are smart enough to be able to live without belief in God.
(2) I am not intelligent enough to live without belief in God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ALGEBRA, aka EULER'S ARGUMENT TO DIDEROT
(1) You don't grok algebra, right?
(2) (a+b^n)/n = x
(3) Therefore, God exists. (Donc Dieu existe.)

ARGUMENT FROM RATIONALITY, aka PRESUPPOSITIONALIST or TRANSCENDENTAL (II)
(1) God is rational so, if God existed, the universe would be rational.
(2) But, if God didn't exist, the universe probably wouldn't be rational.
(3) So, if Atheists were right, rationality wouldn't exist and they couldn't prove God's nonexistence with it.
(4) No, I'm not going to explain why God should be rational.
(5) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF KNOWLEDGE
(1) See this circle?
(2) Its interior represents all that we know.
(3) What we don't know is huge, perhaps infinite.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NECESSARY FAITH
(1) It is impossible to prove the existence of God.
(2) Proof denies faith.
(3) Faith is necessary.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MULTIPLICITY (III) (recursive internet edition)
(1) There exists a web page ( http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm )
(2) That page has hundreds of purported proofs of the existence of God.
(3) They can't all be wrong.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

Ergo

ARGUMENT FROM ASSUMPTION
(1) God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Yes it is. You are not the first person to say that. Millions among millions of people have tried to prove that the Bible is false and guess what; none of them succeeded because the Bible is 100% true from Gensis to Revelation.

There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because

"...I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE!"

Do you all remember this post? God is faithful; He has sent another true christian (i.e., ESB -1138) to this site to water the seeds that I and other christians have sown (e.g., JustbyFaith, Nellinator, etc.) and He (God) will give the increase. Praise God!


Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).

ESB -1138, before you post, please consider whether your message is relevant to the topic, whether it is of interest and helpful to all, and whether it is likely to continue to the point that it annoys others. Avoid clogging up a thread!

Originally posted by Storm
ESB -1138, before you post, please consider whether your message is relevant to the topic, whether it is of interest and helpful to all, and whether it is likely to continue to the point that it annoys others. Avoid clogging up a thread!

You are a true and fair moderator Storm, keep up the good work. I hope you have a good day.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because

"...I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE!"

Do you all remember this post? God is faithful; He has sent another true christian (i.e., ESB -1138) to this site to water the seeds that I and other christians have sown (e.g., JustbyFaith, Nellinator, etc.) and He (God) will give the increase. Praise God!


Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).



What are you talking about? If you haven't noticed I have been defending God's Word. Learn to read.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are a true and fair moderator Storm, keep up the good work.

I agree.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What are you talking about? If you haven't noticed I have been defending God's Word. Learn to read.

A while back I was accused of some things by a moderator. In my response I stated that God will send another true christian to water the seeds of God's Word that I have sown already and that God would give the increase. I presume that you are a christian? I stated that YOU are that true christian that God has sent to this site. Did you misunderstand what I wrote? Just read the words in blue because the words in black were copied from a previous post a week or two ago and was not directed towards you.

He wasn't attacking you ESB. I was confused at first, but he was directing his rebuttal at Ushgarak (I think). He gives you thumbs up later on. Pretty confusing though....

There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really?

That was the thing that threw me off. Sounds like you were trying to tell me off or something.

Do you all remember this post? God is faithful; He has sent another true christian (i.e., ESB -1138) to this site to water the seeds that I and other christians have sown (e.g., JustbyFaith, Nellinator, etc.) and He (God) will give the increase. Praise God!

That makes more sense now.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What are you talking about? If you haven't noticed I have been defending God's Word. Learn to read.

ESB the words in blue were highlighted from the rest of the post because I wanted just that segment of what I wrote a week or two ago to stand out. Then I elaborated a little to show that what I wrote about God sending another true christian to this site ACTUALLY HAPPENED! That person is YOU!

LOOK! ITS A MIRACLE!

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
ESB the words in blue were highlighted from the rest of the post because I wanted just that segment of what I wrote a week or two ago to stand out. Then I elaborated a little to show that what I wrote about God sending another true christian to this site ACTUALLY HAPPENED! That person is YOU!



ESB, here is the original post and my response to it. I will colored in blue the words that I think God made come true.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The world we live in is a rational and intelligent one with good reason. Any argument you present that is divorced from such things is doomed to failure. because it is no better than that of a child saying that the Universe is run by giant marshmellows.

You give no reason to believe what you say other than that you say that the Bible is God's work. And don't try saying that it is not you saying that, it is God, because that is just what you say, and in of itself it has no more basis than the marshmellows.

As there is no rationality, reason or intelligence behind any of your points, what you say above is wrong. At no point will anyone concede any of what you say. Why? Because without foundation, it is only gibberish.

You have failed, you are failing. You will never succeed. In fact, the only effect you are having is increasing the contempt of people for your viewpoint- and it is a well deserved contempt.

You are harming your cause. I recommend you look at your motives and your mission.

And if you are not interested in debate, I also recommend you keep the number of threads you create down. They are all on a similar subject and if you do not want to argue the toss, creating lots of them is simply spam.


There is no intelligence behind any of my points. Really? First off I never said that the Bible was God's "work" I said that it is God's WORD. Secondly, there is rationality, reason, and intelligence behind ALL of my points--you just have to be clued-in Ushgarak to understand them. Third, my foundation is God's Word; how many times do I have to write that. Your foundation is perhaps something else, but I DO HAVE a foundation. Like I said before you have to respect my foundation because it is based on faith just as yours is probably based on something else. Stop attacking my foundation because the Word of the Lord is forever settled in Heaven anyway whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. Finally, I have NOT failed, I am NOT failing, and I have, am, and do succeed already. I have sown God's Word into more hearts on this forum alone than I have at any other time since becoming saved. (hundreds of people have read my posts). My job is to sow the seed of God's Word into as many hearts as is efficiently feasible. And you know what? I HAVE with the Lord's help! This fact alone excites me because I know that another true Christian will water the seeds that I have sown AND GOD WILL GIVE THE INCREASE! Contempt? I don't care about folks having contempt for me I couldn't care less. I know, that I know, that my know knows--that I am doing the Lord's will. You all thought that I was just another debater, jumping on this forum to argue with folk. Nope, this couldn't be further from the truth. I am however, here to engage others in verbal exchange. I see nowhere on this forum where there is some type of mandate that each one of us debate or argue other folk as a requirement for creating and replying to posts. This is simply a religion forum where everyone is free to post whatever they wish--AS LONG AS IT IS OF A RELIGIOUS NATURE. This forum is not dubbed, "The Debate/Argue Forum." So, in conclusion Ushgarak lighten up a little dude and direct your frustrations elsewhere. I am not your enemy and you are not mine. It just amazes me that you wasted all of that time pointing me out from all of the other people that post messages. Man, I must be pretty important (although being important is NOT my aim).



Did you get that now ESB? The words in blue are what I wrote a week or two ago in my response to one of the moderators. You are one of the true christians that God has sent to water the seeds that I and other christians have sown and are sowing.

Got it;

Believing in God isn't enough to get into heaven. Satan and his demons believe in God.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Got it;

Believing in God isn't enough to get into heaven. Satan and his demons believe in God.

Oh so very true!

We MUST exercise FAITH in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Got it;

Believing in God isn't enough to get into heaven. Satan and his demons believe in God.

Satan does not exist. Heaven is here on Earth, and I am sorry that you are missing it. There are no demons, that is just in your mind.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan does not exist. Heaven is here on Earth, and I am sorry that you are missing it. There are no demons, that is just in your mind.

Blind to the truth. You know for people who don't believe in Religion you sure do spend a lot of time in here. It has been said that Satan shall use his demons to attack Christians.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Blind to the truth. You know for people who don't believe in Religion you sure do spend a lot of time in here. It has been said that Satan shall use his demons to attack Christians.

1. I did not attack your religion, I simple told you what I believe to be the truth.

2. I am a very devout religious person. I am a Nichiren Buddhist, and I live my practice every day.

3. Prove to me that there is a Satan. You will not be about to because there is no Satan.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Blind to the truth. You know for people who don't believe in Religion you sure do spend a lot of time in here. It has been said that Satan shall use his demons to attack Christians.

This is not a Christian only forum. Please get over it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
1. I did not attack your religion, I simple told you what I believe to be the truth.

2. I am a very devout religious person. I am a Nichiren Buddhist, and I live my practice every day.

3. Prove to me that there is a Satan. You will not be about to because there is no Satan.

Let me ask you some questions:

1.) Is it okay to kill people (in your opinion only)

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Let me ask you some questions:

1.) Is it okay to kill people (in your opinion only)

No. I believe that you can defend yourself, but to kill someone who is trying to kill you is wrong, because that person will reincarnate with that anger and hate in their live.

Well guess I'm going to hell then

The Bible has been proven wrong several times ESB, and there are only 2 possibilites as of yet for it to be proven true
1.)Mount Erarat(or however you spell it) actually does hold Noah's Ark
2.)That Ethiopian church does in fact hold the Ark of the Covenent which in turn must hold the 10 Commandments and be proven not forged by Human Hands

I don't understand why I must have faith in a God that created me with the Brain to analyse the Bible and think of it as not true until proven, he created me this way, therefore wouldn't he be automatically be sending me to Hell?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No. I believe that you can defend yourself, but to kill someone who is trying to kill you is wrong, because that person will reincarnate with that anger and hate in their live.

2.) Why is it wrong?

"I cant believe that the same God who has endowed us with wisdom and logic intends for us to forgo their use"

Originally posted by ESB -1138
2.) Why is it wrong?

I just told you that. What did you not understand?

3.) Do you believe there is a God?

Your failing to understand his posts






ESB-1138, on a non-related note, are you one of those people that believes in Supershadow?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
3.) Do you believe there is a God?

I believe that the mystic law is a reflection of God. I believe that God is all things and much more.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe that the mystic law is a reflection of God. I believe that God is all things and much more.

You did not answer the question. Simple yes or no.

He answered yes...read what he said.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
You did not answer the question. Simple yes or no.

If I say Yes, you will not understand. I wish you to understand that I do not believe in your god, the god of the bible. However, I do believe in God.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If I say Yes, you will not understand. I wish you to understand that I do not believe in your god, the god of the bible. However, I do believe in God.

5.) So you agree that killing is wrong? Even if their was no God?

Yes. He does.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
5.) So you agree that killing is wrong? Even if their was no God?

Yes. Although I don't understand the relevance of "no God" in your statement. I never said that I was an atheist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes.

6.) Then that would mean humans are no better then animals. If there is no God then their is nothing wrong with killing other humans. It would be like killing a cow or a chicken or any other animal. If there is no God then we are just animals; no better then animals. Agreed?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
6.) Then that would mean humans are no better then animals. If there is no God then their is nothing wrong with killing other humans. It would be like killing a cow or a chicken or any other animal. If there is no God then we are just animals; no better then animals. Agreed?

Please look at my post about. I edited it.

We are animals. It is not good to kill a cow or chicken.

But he said there is a God.....
and due to Evolution, we have Morals, and free-thought, if you kill someone you will feel it's wrong

Originally posted by ESB -1138
6.) Then that would mean humans are no better then animals. If there is no God then their is nothing wrong with killing other humans. It would be like killing a cow or a chicken or any other animal. If there is no God then we are just animals; no better then animals. Agreed?
That is some strange logic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please look at my post about. I edited it.

We are animals. It is not good to kill a cow or chicken.

7.) If we are animals then why is a grand statue to us nothing more then a place to sit with birds? Why is it we have thoughts and animals have none? Why is it we have feelings and animals have none?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
6.) Then that would mean humans are no better then animals. If there is no God then their is nothing wrong with killing other humans. It would be like killing a cow or a chicken or any other animal. If there is no God then we are just animals; no better then animals. Agreed? So the whole meaning of life is based around their being a god? Thats some weird logic.

Originally posted by Storm
That is some strange logic.

Originally posted by Black Rob
So the whole meaning of life is based around their being a god? Thats some weird logic.

Question for you; if there is no God then there is no meaning of life.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
7.) If we are animals then why is a grand statue to us nothing more then a place to sit with birds? Why is it we have thoughts and animals have none? Why is it we have feelings and animals have none? How do you know animals dont have thoughts?How do you know they lack feelings? Dont honestly understand what you meant with the first question.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
7.) If we are animals then why is a grand statue to us nothing more then a place to sit with birds? Why is it we have thoughts and animals have none? Why is it we have feelings and animals have none?

Because we have a primate brain.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Question for you; if there is no God then there is no meaning of life.

Lets all "lol" at that together.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
7.) If we are animals then why is a grand statue to us nothing more then a place to sit with birds? Why is it we have thoughts and animals have none? Why is it we have feelings and animals have none?

There is no way to know, we don't really know if we exist actually, Gods came from peoples need to feel a purpose

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Question for you; if there is no God then there is no meaning of life. Thats not a question

Originally posted by Bardock42
Lets all "lol" at that together. lol

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Question for you; if there is no God then there is no meaning of life.

Outside of the meaning that you have for live, there is no meaning to life.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
There is no way to know, we don't really know if we exist actually, Gods came from peoples need to feel a purpose

I shall use a quote: I think; therefore I am which is incorrect and thus can only mean: I think therefore I am

You'd think that would make sense, but we really know nothing about the Universe, or existence for that matter, so that logic is not valid

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Question for you; if there is no God then there is no meaning of life.
Life is meaningless only if you want it to be meaningless or let it be meaningless. Meaning cannot be imposed from the outside. If a person' s life has meaning, it is because of what that person values - and that, in turn, relies upon the character and experiences of that person as an individual.

Originally posted by Black Rob
How do you know animals dont have thoughts?How do you know they lack feelings? Dont honestly understand what you meant with the first question.

When has an animal cried? When has one laughed?

Originally posted by Storm
Life is meaningless only if you want it to be meaningless or let it be meaningless. Meaning cannot be imposed from the outside. If a person' s life has meaning, it is because of what that person values - and that, in turn, relies upon the character and experiences of that person as an individual.

So life is meaningless and therefore it is okay to kill people.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
So life is meaningless and therefore it is okay to kill people.
That was totally not the point.

Life has what meaning you give it.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
When has an animal cried? When has one laughed?



So life is meaningless and therefore it is okay to kill people.

Meaning has nothing to do with killing.

Originally posted by Alliance
That was totally not the point.

Life has what meaning you give it.

If there is no God then there is no meaning to life. If there is no meaning to life then life means nothing. If life means nothing then it is okay to kill others.

Well if your a person like me, you value your life above all else, because you will be blinked from existence in the short time here

Originally posted by ESB -1138
If there is no God then there is no meaning to life. If there is no meaning to life then life means nothing. If life means nothing then it is okay to kill others. Again...strange logic.

Illogical logic points to one thing....fallacy.

Originally posted by Alliance
Again...strange logic.

Illogical logic points to one thing....fallacy.

What? If God doesn't exist then we are no better then the chickens we eat. Then that can only mean that the killing of humans is okay.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What? If God doesn't exist then we are no better then the chickens we eat. Then that can only mean that the killing of humans is okay.

Nah, actually even if God exists we are no better than them....

Originally posted by ESB -1138
If there is no God then there is no meaning to life. If there is no meaning to life then life means nothing. If life means nothing then it is okay to kill others.

I feel so sorry for you. I wish you great happiness and I am sorry if I have in any way caused you pain.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, actually even if God exists we are no better than them....

No; God put us above all his creations. Through Jesus life has meaning and that meaning is Christ.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What? If God doesn't exist then we are no better then the chickens we eat. Then that can only mean that the killing of humans is okay.

You have no logic whatsoever. Restating it solves nothing. There is no sequence in your thoughts.

You're an animal anyway. You just don't always act like one.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I feel so sorry for you. I wish you great happiness and I am sorry if I have in any way caused you pain.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What? If God doesn't exist then we are no better then the chickens we eat. Then that can only mean that the killing of humans is okay.

Killing and eating are different causes. One is because of negative emotions like hate, fear, and greed. The other is because of the need to live. Intent is everything.

I' m laughing, because if I didn' t laugh, I' d cry.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
No; God put us above all his creations. Through Jesus life has meaning and that meaning is Christ.

So what, what did put God above anything? Even if he made all this shit here...we are not actually better than them.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m laughing, because if I didn' t laugh, I' d cry.

Elaborate.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Killing and eating are different causes. One is because of negative emotions like hate, fear, and greed. The other is because of the need to live. Intent is everything.

So it is okay to eat humans by your logic

No, no, no, no. Apparently, it' s ok by yours.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
So it is okay to eat humans by your logic

Well, under the right circumstances, yes. It is even legal if you have to survive as long as you don't murder.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m laughing, because if I didn' t laugh, I' d cry.

cry

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Well, under the right circumstances, yes. It is even legal if you have to survive as long as you don't murder.

You said it is okay to kill to survive. Thus killing another human for survival is okay by your logic. And thus you said that greed is wrong and for a human to kill another to eat would be greedy thus making it wrong. But it is for his survival which you said is okay so the human would be doing the right thing in killing another to feed. It goes on forever by your logic.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
You said it is okay to kill to survive. Thus killing another human for survival is okay by your logic. And thus you said that greed is wrong and for a human to kill another to eat would be greedy thus making it wrong. But it is for his survival which you said is okay so the human would be doing the right thing in killing another to feed. It goes on forever by your logic.

1138, you're not making ANY sense. You're making up Shakya's "logic"

It isn't a Paradox, Survival is not neccesarily Greed, you must continue the species, maybe you have family etc etc

Originally posted by Alliance
1138, you're not making ANY sense. You're making up Shakya's "logic"

I am using Shakyamunison's logic. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
It isn't a Paradox, Survival is not neccesarily Greed, you must continue the species, maybe you have family etc etc

But the will to survive by killing another would be an act of greed.

Originally posted by Alliance
1138, you're not making ANY sense. You're making up Shakya's "logic"

Originally posted by ESB -1138
You said it is okay to kill to survive. Thus killing another human for survival is okay by your logic. And thus you said that greed is wrong and for a human to kill another to eat would be greedy thus making it wrong. But it is for his survival which you said is okay so the human would be doing the right thing in killing another to feed. It goes on forever by your logic.

You seem to have a hard with complicated issues. Intent is everything.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
But the will to survive by killing another would be an act of greed.


You just said eating a person, not killing them.....

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Well, under the right circumstances, yes. It is even legal if you have to survive as long as you don't murder.
Somehow, I doubt he has ever heard of the Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571.

Originally posted by Storm
Somehow, I doubt he has ever heard of the Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571.

Is that the flight that crashed on the Snowy mountain with that Sports team, and they ate the dead?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
You just said eating a person, not killing them.....

So you would eat them alive? Shakyamunison said killing for selfish reasons is wrong but for survival is right. Thus killing a human to eat and live is right. But then that would mean killing is right.

If there is no God there is no meaning to life. If there is no meaning to life; life is meaningless. If life is meaningless it is okay to kill humans but thank the Lord that Jesus Christ came to save us of our sins.

He's talking about eating the already dead, like the Donner Party, and that Sports Team stuck on the mountain did

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Is that the flight that crashed on the Snowy mountain with that Sports team, and they ate the dead?
*Nods.*

Originally posted by ESB -1138
So you would eat them alive? Shakyamunison said killing for selfish reasons is wrong but for survival is right. Thus killing a human to eat and live is right. But then that would mean killing is right.

If there is no God there is no meaning to life. If there is no meaning to life; life is meaningless. If life is meaningless it is okay to kill humans but thank the Lord that Jesus Christ came to save us of our sins.

Please stop misquoting me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please stop misquoting me.

Why do you like Satan so much?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Why do you like Satan so much?

Satan does not exist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan does not exist.

Then why is there death?

doh

Are you under 13?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Then why is there death?


Because there is birth.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because there is birth.

That doesn't make sense. You are saying because of birth there is death. But then why is it people long ago use to live way pass 100 but now it is common to see them die around 70?