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I can actually understand Liz's dramatic decision a whole lot more now. Through out the entire movie her mind was racing with alot of things at once..She had feelings for Jack.. she also had trust issues with him and she was ALSO battling with denial and what her heart wanted (Jack) and what her brain wanted(Will)..

She had a vicious cycle thing going on in the movie look at what happens with the scenes:

Sexual suggestion scene:
She obviously trusts him at this point.
1. Feelings for Jack (smiling)
2. Denial her heart Vs Brain (Norrington questions her feelings)
3. Her trust in him is questioned (Norrington questions the trust)
4. her heart is hurt = BAD = Jack doesn't "care about her" (compass pointed to Jack she THINKS it means that he left will)
5. Good for the brain Gives her reason not to be with him.

Curiosity
1. Jack "proves" she can trust him again. (pulls away)
2. Feelings develop more ( she's got the trust back but she's really caught in the moment with Jack)
3. Denial her Heart Vs Brain (is she really happy he pulled away?)

Beach Scene
1. Her trust in him is questioned (finds out what happened with will)
2. Her heart is hurt = BAD = Jack Doesn't "care about her"
3. Good for her brain gives her reason not to be with him.
4. He Gains trust again (she thinks he's going to stay and fight)
5. Feelings develop even more
6. Denial, heart Vs Brain(although you don't see it this time, Just assuming..)

End Scene
1. Her trust in him is questioned (he escapes)
2. Heart is really hurt this time = BAD = Jack doesn't "care about her"
3. Good for the brain gives her reason not to be with him
4. He gains her trust again spectacularly
5. Feelings for him develop to a climax (end scene, clings to his leg..major gratitude, he's her hero now)
6. Denial Heart Vs Brain (more vicious battle this time, THIS is the moment to decide)

HERE is where the Battle ends, there is no reason for her to not have him now..He has just proved to her that she can always have trust in him. The battle between what her heart wants and what her brain is telling her to do comes to an end..The brain wins over on the spur of the moment. She has to get rid of what her heart wants. Remove the temptation..she's forcing herself to stick with Will..even if its not what her heart truly wants.. She's not willing to accept a life with Jack.... yet.

She realizes later that she has chosen poorly..That was not the right answer to her "problem" with Jack. She feels no better that he's gone..In fact I think she realises that she has just got rid of what her heart really wants and she misses him to no end. "You don't know what you've got till its gone"

I can totally understand why she did it at the end..she was an emotional time bomb..she's young..she's never felt like this before. Her brain and heart are batteling viciously throughout the entire movie..She thinks she trusts him one minute and is then really hurt that he tricks her..then he brain is happy that there might not be a chance..then OH theres a chance again..POOR LIZ

i love this. girls always have to be analyzed like this, because we do not stay consistent on the way we think about things.

YEAH TOTALLY with Liz, it is a cycle. throw Will and her "sense of honor" and even perhaps what she "thinks she deserves"... and no wonder she is always frowning and looking confused.

Yeah i think the beach scene is VERY telling: with liz running up to kiss Will, and then we get a shot of Jack's face... and then Jack gets her back by saying everything he said to her (/flirting, etc) was a lie.... which it wasnt, but there is some subtle fighting going on there...

hahaha. poor liz. hopefully she can get out of this cycle, make a choice, and go with it in the 3rd one. i just fear she will make the marriage choice and regret it...

Yes

In every Jack/ Liz/ Will moment you can see with the Mise en Scene, The dialogue, the facial expressions and her behaviour that ALL of these emotions as said above are running through her head ALL the time...Must have been one battle..I can totally sympathise with her in the end to be honest..she was probably just so overrun with emotions she just wanted it to end

the fact she went with her brain this time might mean she goes with her HEART next time

she'd better. when you put it that way, its much more Disney to go with your heart...

Thats very true^^

Also no note..your similarity with the opening scene of CotBP and whats happened in the next movie..

Her reaction towards Jack when he grabs her is basically "should I be scared?....or should I be excited?" and it echos what her emotions are in this movie . It also Echo's Jack's..his smug look on his face "look I've got your girl!" is exactly what happens in the next one with his character..

yeah and Jack is rooting for Norrington because he sees Norrington has wayyyyyy less competition that Will, cause he basically accosting Lizzie right in front of Norrington in that scene, and N cant do a thing about it.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i love this. girls always have to be analyzed like this, because we do not stay consistent on the way we think about things.

The truth shall set you free, or imprison you even further.

Elizabeth LOVES Will but she is IN LOVE with Jack and that is the difference

Would you not agree?

To admit the truth of being in love with Jack only imprisons her further in the turmoil of her emotions and the choice that will greatly affect the loser.

it is the old saying though

A CHOICE CANNOT BE MADE IF THERE IS NO CHOICE TO MAKE

What do you mean?^^

I also think that her agreeing to go and get Jack back shows us that its not like she never wants to see him again..she realises how selfish and stupid her earlier decision was..If she was really interested in leaving Jack forever then she wouldn't be going back to get him..she wants him back.

The saying was in relation to her emotional reasoning of chaining Jack to the Pole. By eliminating him she doesn't have to choose.

which by itself is a choice

Oh yes I see thanks.

Its going to come back and bite her in the ass later thats for sure.

It obviously wasn't about her saving Will and the others because she agrees to basically go back and get him. Which would mean Davy will STILL be after them It was alll about her selfishly not wanting to have to make a choice later..

Exactly,

(No offense intended) I have met a lot of women who do tend to make decisions whilst emotional that come back to bite them.

LIZ AND JACK, looking at it, Liz and Will fought for each other in the first

In this one, Will is more for his father now and Liz is more for Jack, and we know that it was Liz that Jack turned around for, no one else.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Exactly,

(No offense intended) I have met a lot of women who do tend to make decisions whilst emotional that come back to bite them.

LIZ AND JACK, looking at it, Liz and Will fought for each other in the first

In this one, Will is more for his father now and Liz is more for Jack, and we know that it was Liz that Jack turned around for, no one else.

Yeh I totally agree with you. It was obvious that Disney knew people would get bored with the whole Will/Liz thing they needed to spice it up a bit they needed to give the characters new purpose..and I have to admit..towards the end of the last film..I felt as if..yes she has Will..but I would like to see a Liz Jack thing go down later..Now that is has..I'm STILL hoping for more Jack/Liz..they just work on screen alot better than Will/Liz..If it didnt work then there wouldn't be this amount of excitemnt over it..its what people were dying to see since movie one I'm really happy will has a new distraction..otherwise his character would become pointless...especially if it was all still about him and Liz in this one..

Jack came back for her yes. More than everyone else. That whole last scene was ALL about him coming back for her and how he and she felt because of it. I believe that the compass was pointing to Liz the whole time that he thought it was broken..we dont get to see it directly because Liz has it..the only time we do see it point directly at her is when they are on the beach..he looks at it and it moves from him (where she last looked) back to Liz. Also. Jack would have done the right thing anways..him looking at the compass was to almost prove the point that he went back for Liz to the audience..in my opinion anyway..

Jack wants a partner/equal. he needs someone like Liz to keep his edge, to push him out of his comfort zone and propel him forward.

Will was what she wanted when she sought escape from her life of preordained destiny. (Grow up, be trophy wife, boring boring boring)

However, it is clear that it is Jack that gets under her skin and pricks her feelings. Funny, that sounds a lot like the basic rules of attraction. Plus every girl loves the badman/pirate/rebel/scoundrel.

Archangel, you seem to fit right in with us! thanks for your awesome thoughtss. it all makes tons of sense.
I totally agree that she loves Will and is IN LOVE with Jack. thats beautiful

Don't tell me i'm starting to understand women.


That will have my death warrant signed.






FOr was it not written that he who understand the female mind will be drawn and quartered, hung, shot, poisoned and stoned to death for knowing toooooo much.

I think we have out first Male Jack/Liz groupie

And we all get to see it

ROFL I like to watch

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I think we have out first Male Jack/Liz groupie

Girls, you know I've always been a big Liz/Jack supporter since the first Pirate movie....and my heart is breaking...because honestly I don't think it's going to happen. You all know I've analyzed all these points with you all, I've even had my own fantasies about "3". I mean, I want it to happen with all my heart, and I can tell you right now, unless they just do an outstanding job, I can't see me being a big fan of POTC 3 without the pairing of Jack and LIz....but based on some things I'm reading over the past 24 hours I'm not so sure Jack and Elizabeth are going to end up together....In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if all our points and ponders were all just figments of our imagination.....maybe it was just Crazy Old Jack flirting with a young girl....maybe she was just using Jack to get him to lead her to Will.....maybe we have it all wrong....maybe the compass pointed to Jack because he had the answers to where to find Will....NAH.....I just can't buy it - see I keep flip-flopping cuz I love Jack and Liz together so much - cuz it's so hot to watch sexy Jack come on to a woman - not just any woman though, Elizabeth....but, I just can't let myself keep getting all worked up just to be let down in a major way next May...Sorry to be a party pooper = that's just a grim feeling i've assumed today...

darlings, darlings.... lets all not panic now!!!! Lets all be logical and remember that no matter what happens, we have a fabulous movie where they DO flirt, and they DO kiss, and that will never change! lol.

Archangel, you are cool. i'm glad you are starting to understand women, though i will warn you, just when you think you have figured us out, we go nuts on ya. lol.

Now, back to what I was saying....
We always knew it could go either way. Even though our analysis has been thorough, there is no way for us to know what the writers intended in every situation. I dont think any of this has been figments of our imaginations. I think we have delved deeper into a very deep film and found things out that way. But, we dont have the whole picture, and we wont until the 3rd one comes out.
We have always known it would be extremely predictable for Disney to turn things around and go back to Will. If they do that, you can bet there will be some brilliant writing, awesome directing, and fabulous acting to draw us into the story and make us love it anyways. I mean, its all the characters we love~!

Basically what Im trying to say is, I know we all desperately want Jack and Liz to get together, and i think we've all agreed it would make the best ending. But if it doesnt happen, its not the world's end. (no pun intended). We will still get to see Jack looking hott for the entire 3rd movie, etc...

So lets all stay positive. It could still happen.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
darlings, darlings.... lets all not panic now!!!! Lets all be logical and remember that no matter what happens, we have a fabulous movie where they DO flirt, and they DO kiss, and that will never change! lol.

Archangel, you are cool. i'm glad you are starting to understand women, though i will warn you, just when you think you have figured us out, we go nuts on ya. lol.

Now, back to what I was saying....
We always knew it could go either way. Even though our analysis has been thorough, there is no way for us to know what the writers intended in every situation. I dont think any of this has been figments of our imaginations. I think we have delved deeper into a very deep film and found things out that way. But, we dont have the whole picture, and we wont until the 3rd one comes out.
We have always known it would be extremely predictable for Disney to turn things around and go back to Will. If they do that, you can bet there will be some brilliant writing, awesome directing, and fabulous acting to draw us into the story and make us love it anyways. I mean, its all the characters we love~!

Basically what Im trying to say is, I know we all desperately want Jack and Liz to get together, and i think we've all agreed it would make the best ending. But if it doesnt happen, its not the world's end. (no pun intended). We will still get to see Jack looking hott for the entire 3rd movie, etc...

So lets all stay positive. It could still happen.

I know...I'm sorry I'm saying these things...and you are right -the most important element is we DO get to see jack looking hot once again....I mean, cuz he didn't get with Liz in POTC 1 - but he was oh so hot, anyways....it's kind of funny to read those interviews where they were scared of how the audience was going to react to Johnny's portrayal of Jack - and how it all turned out!!!! THe great thing about Johnny - is although we all know and love him as Jack - he is so believable in other roles too - cuz you know some actors get stuck in one mode - but not Johnny - I think he's is the greatest actor ever...and the hottest, of course.

yeah he is incredibly talented and versatile. and unique. no one else out there quite like him. its really a pleasure to watch him perform, because he takes on the character so completely. he isnt afraid to take major risks. i really respect that.

you know what? i am hoping for nice Liz/Jack hug. I bet Capn Jack would be a good hugger.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
darlings, darlings.... lets all not panic now!!!! Lets all be logical and remember that no matter what happens, we have a fabulous movie where they DO flirt, and they DO kiss, and that will never change! lol.

Now, back to what I was saying....
We always knew it could go either way. Even though our analysis has been thorough, there is no way for us to know what the writers intended in every situation. I dont think any of this has been figments of our imaginations. I think we have delved deeper into a very deep film and found things out that way. But, we dont have the whole picture, and we wont until the 3rd one comes out.
We have always known it would be extremely predictable for Disney to turn things around and go back to Will. If they do that, you can bet there will be some brilliant writing, awesome directing, and fabulous acting to draw us into the story and make us love it anyways. I mean, its all the characters we love~!

Basically what Im trying to say is, I know we all desperately want Jack and Liz to get together, and i think we've all agreed it would make the best ending. But if it doesnt happen, its not the world's end. (no pun intended). We will still get to see Jack looking hott for the entire 3rd movie, etc...

So lets all stay positive. It could still happen.

aww katelovespirate, you are the voice of reason! Just earlier I responded in the "How mad would you be thread" but I do feel a bit comforted because you're absolutely right. Even if I would be sad from a Will/Liz ending, I am still going to enjoy just SEEING hot jack alive again... and no matter what happens, I'm still looking forward to when he sees Liz again for the first time. LOL

I know..I'm strating to think that they are gonna be all boring..but there are so many thing like the Will/Davy simerlatrity..if they were meant to be getting on all peachy in the future then why make that happen in the next?

There are so many things that point the other way..Like how are they going to explain away the compass pointing to him 3 times? The hat? The fact he came back for her? The fact she leaned in to kiss him again after she chained him up? The fact that sh wanted to kiss him in the curiosity scene? Why put that in there if it means nothing later on?

I mean even the whole emotions thing she's going through..she did it in every scene..the very ending was her way of getting rid of the temptation..otherwise I cant see how iits a selfish act..she saved herself yes..but she also saved the others which is noble..

COME ON DISNEY!! do a Star Wars!! make everyone happy!

I mean even the children will be like "why didnt the best character get the girl?"

I don't think they'll explain the hat thing. lol. But I want them to explain Tia Dalma away! I think she's the one that's confused us all.
But they will almost certainly explain the compass. I hope they confirm the scene in Tortuga with Jack asking himself "What do I want?" was really talking about Liz.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't think they'll explain the hat thing. lol. But I want them to explain Tia Dalma away! I think she's the one that's confused us all.
But they will almost certainly explain the compass. I hope they confirm the scene in Tortuga with Jack asking himself "What do I want?" was really talking about Liz.

Yeh the whole trying on hats scene in Tortuga and not being satisfied symbolised that he was lost and didn't really know what he wants, he leaves with no hat..then Liz comes along next second and is basically wearing his lost hat, his most beloved item (she is his most beloved "item"..his mind then settles and he seems pretty happy and confident once he has her there..meaning she is the missing part of him that makes him feel complete..In my opinion ...

Totally, I really agree with LovelyOne and the hat/Jack/Liz theory. It's a really good idea. I'm sorry guys, can some1 explain 2 me what they mean by Will/Davy. I think it's because I've missed something or I'm slow.......... 1 or the other

AHH^^ basically the Will/Liz relationship in movie 2 and 3 is mirroring Davy's tragic love story (from the directors mouth) Davy's fiance (sea goddess Calypso) was wild and uncontrollable. She left Davy which made him so heartbroken that he cut his heart out....Liz is pretty much doing the same thing..I wrote a whole theory on it called "Will Bill and the knife" here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=415041&highlight=will+bill+and+the+knife

The fact that the Director himself has said Will/liz is mirroring Davy/Calypso in movie 2 & 3 makes me convinced that the Jack/Liz thing isn't over with yet..Most people think she chained him up just to betray him..it was more about her fear of her love for him..so she chained him up to remove the temptation of being with him..she forced herself to be with Will..even if its not what her heart really wants..you can see its not what she really wants..she becomes very distraught during and after betraying Jack..She was finding it very hard to let him go..

LovelyOne thanx sooooooooooooooooooooo much I'll actually go and read that right now thanx again

LOL I dont know why some words are red.I think its because i used the search engine to dig up the thread..and it picked up the words I typed in..if that makes sense..do some words come up red on that page I just gave the link to?^^

and you are welcome

I understood the hat theory, I just don't think the third movie will talk about it much, if at all.
Jack: You found the best hat, love. Come to sea with me
Liz: It completes you, Jack. I just didn't think you would figure it out.
Jack: Psh! I'm Jack Sparrow!

But I'm going to prepare myself for some real twists. I didn't even expect Jack to ever be kissing ANYONE much less Liz, and then I saw it.
Me: hmmm, this is such a cool movie. Wonder why Liz is staying behind...WHOW! Oh my gosh! This kiss is so hot! This is so awesome! Oh! What will they do with Will?

This movie broke all the "disney" rules, along with the first one, so I don't expect any patterns at all, although I will be disappointed if things go grim for Will. Stiff or not, he's pretty brave and pretty sweet. I just don't like when bad things happen to good people.

I also don't think its going to be talked about either..Its pretty obvious what it meant in move 2..and its actually resolved at the end of move 2..he got his darn hat back at the end meaning he WON liz over ..they wont need to bring it up again...its already been answered..

I could totally tell she was about to Kiss him..they wouldn't have put the teaser in earlier if she wasn't going to..

They did that with the 1st movie..she almost kisses Will but the kiss is saved until the end...Its in the Script writers' 4 main rules (which they mention during the commentary of movie 1)

1. No book ends
2. No book ends
3. never kill the dog
4. always save the Kiss till last

Will IS the brave and sweet character...but its always THOSE ones you have to watch out for in movies..you think they are the safe ones and then BAM twist of the century they do something crazy and stupid....I think he is going to become a pretty disliked character at some point in movie 3.

Jack said it best in movie 1:

"You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest. Its the HONEST ones you need to look out for..you can never tell when they are going to do something incredibly STUPID"

So IMO..Will is going to do something massively stupid and risky in movie 3 and perhaps hurt Jack and Liz in some way.....and the audience Will be shocked to the core..

you know. it be cool to think that they did those thing in #1 to continue on in the other 2 but you cant because they didnt know there would be more. But then again, they could just put stuff in the other 2 that relates to the first one to make you think that.

well that was officially confusing.

your tellin m. lol

Originally posted by jdl1224
you know. it be cool to think that they did those thing in #1 to continue on in the other 2 but you cant because they didnt know there would be more. But then again, they could just put stuff in the other 2 that relates to the first one to make you think that.

well that was officially confusing.

Yes I agree that they didnt know they could continue that theme in the next 2 movies because at the time they didnt know at the t they were going to make more..but they probably decided to carry on the themes raised in movie 1 into the next two movies when they started to make them..it would only make sense for them to do that..they coudln't make the next 2 movies comlethey different to the first one..they have to link movie 2 and 3 in with what happened in the 1st movie..

ok new to the boards, but I came up with a really interesting spin to this whole LOVE TRIANGLE now thanks to POTC2 the night we went to go see it the whole ride home was nothing but a discussion on who in #3 is liz gonna end up with in the end. I came up with this theory.

liz is gonna ditch both guys for the sea, she's been a pirate since movie 1 and its only fitting for her to sail off into the sunset leaving both suiters stupified. personally I'd love for her to end up with jack those 2 would be the love match of all time, but with the recent shift of views toward females in movies (the heroine, super hero, the woman who doesnt need anyones help especially a man) I could see this being incorporated.

no i sort of agree with that theory- i think it is possible. i have thought it might happen.

But both guys are hott, so really, she should choose one. Cough cough Jack.

ive never thought of it that way.

but because it's disney i'm not sure they would do it. its usually a "happy ever after" ending. unless they built it up to where that WAS the happy ending then they might. but so far i think jack might end up being the happy ever after because theyll build him up to be fantastic after will wants to kill himself or something.

who knows.

the majority of the audience are going to want Jack to win out in the end..and if its clear that he' wants Liz in movie 3..he will probably get her..He seems to be showing that he really wants her (not just for sex) in movie 2...so I'm guessing it's going to continue in movie 3. It wouldnt make any sense if it just stopped by movie 3..

Disney broke all the rules even making a movie about pirates, so I can see them branching off from the fairy tale ending and doing a complete twist, but I can also see them playing and teasing Jack/Liz and then getting her to set things straight with Will and the two of them stronger than they ever were before. But I wouldn't depend on Disney patterns for anything.