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Team DC vs Team Marvel, this fight is taking the best fighters (IMO) and pitting them against each other, they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind). This is a fight where we put all these fighters so called "fighting skills" to the test. So heres the lineup.

MARVEL
1. Captain America (No Shield)
2. Black Panther
3. Wolverine (no adamantium claws or healing factor)
4. Spiderman (strength is put on Capt's level, no webbing, no spider sense)
5. Daredevil

DC
1. Batman (no gadgets)
2. Batgirl (Cassandra,no gadgets)
3. Green Arrow
4. Nightwing (no gadgets)
5. Deathstroke (no weapons/healing factor)

I believe I made this fairly even and debateable. So which team takes it, it's pretty evenly set with characters on both sides having someone they are relatively equal to on the other team and remeber in fighting, strength & speed are only parts of the equation, you also have to be smart and skillful. So which team has the greater skillz?

DC Team is going to kill them

Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
DC Team is going to kill them

really I tried to make it even, I wanted this to be like a really hard fought war. o well

He didn't put any restrictions on Black Panther. Does that mean he gets all his weapons? Jesus.

Anyways, Marvel wins it.

Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
DC Team is going to kill them Are you kidding. This is actually close.

I'd give this to Marvel in a close fight. That's because Spider Man and Black Panther are going to be so damn hard to hit.

Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
DC Team is going to kill them

How so

Cap with no sheild beat Bats with no gadgets

Black Panther beats Nightwing

Wolverine gets owned by Batgirl

Spiderman pwns GA with ease

Daredevil would get beaten by DS

Originally posted by Grimm22
How so

Cap with no sheild beat Bats with no gadgets

true

Originally posted by Grimm22
Black Panther beats Nightwing
true

Originally posted by Grimm22
Wolverine gets owned by Batgirl

wtf? how did you ever come to this conclusion? oht hats right you hate wolverine. well news flash for you. wolverine even with out his healign factor is far superior in speed, agility, reflexes,strength, durability.
he also has his sejnse still so he can prodict bat girls attacks while bat girl on the other hand can not read his due to the fact he been able to trick telepathics with ease. he can also go feral or beserker making him self un read able and not to mention he a far superior fighter


Originally posted by Grimm22
Spiderman pwns GA with ease
true

Originally posted by Grimm22
Daredevil would get beaten by DS
true

Without a healing factor/claws yes Batgirl would beat Wolverine.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Without a healing factor/claws yes Batgirl would beat Wolverine.
please explain why?

wolverine faster, stronger, more durable, more agile and better reflexes.
he can sense atatcks before they happen due to his sense and he can make shis moves un readable to cass.
He also the far superior fighter

He's stronger. That's about it. His durability is dependent on the healing factor. She's a better fighter.

Originally posted by capt it up
please explain why?

wolverine faster, stronger, more durable, more agile and better reflexes.
he can sense atatcks before they happen due to his sense and he can make shis moves un readable to cass.
He also the far superior fighter
Wolverine's not beating cass with those handicaps.Take his Healing Factor and Wolverine's a nobody.The only thing Wolverine has is probably strength and Durabiility everything else is all Batgirls.

Originally posted by Grimm22
Cap with no sheild beat Bats with no gadgets

About 5/10. Batman's more skilled. That's right, I said it!!!!!!

Originally posted by capt it up
He also the far superior fighter

Not a chance in hell.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
He's stronger. That's about it. His durability is dependent on the healing factor. She's a better fighter.

actauly he superior in all the other abilities as well ebcuase unlike cass he is truely in the superhuman levels.

also wolverine is more durable even with out his healign factor due to weapon x making wolverine muscle in humanly dense to give more resistence to injury.

Cass is in no way shape or form the superior fighter. He has no were near the training or the experience.
Hell Cass was not even a loud to patrol after she lost her abilite to read peoples moves because it was to dangerous for her.

Originally posted by Skeets
Wolverine's not beating cass with those handicaps.Take his Healing Factor and Wolverine's a nobody.The only thing Wolverine has is probably strength and Durabiility everything else is all Batgirls.
he a nobody?

no he a trained killer who has master un known amounts of fighting styles and has over 100 year of experience not counting the knowledge Ogun gave him.

He has superhuman agility and reflexes along with low level super human strength. He has enchanced durability and superhuman senses which can know an attack before it is made.

yet he a nobody? lol

Originally posted by capt it up
he a nobody?

no he a trained killer who has master un known amounts of fighting styles and has over 100 year of experience not counting the knowledge Ogun gave him.

He has superhuman agility and reflexes along with low level super human strength. He has enchanced durability and superhuman senses which can know an attack before it is made.

yet he a nobody? lol
Yet he gets beat by Deadpool with ease once you take his Healing Factor away.

Wolverine still has his bone claws right?

I think the Marvel team would win this. Deathstroke would beat any of the marvel guys 1 on 1 but the whole team is way too strong.

Originally posted by Skeets
Yet he gets beat by Deadpool with ease once you take his Healing Factor away.
with ease? he stabbed deadpool more times then deadpool got him. deadpool was out fought and only won due to having a working healing factor. Hell Deadpool only stabb wolverine due to taking a hit becuase he new he could take it, but wolverien could not. also deadpool with a healing factor would kick the living shit out of cass. cass would stand no chance. So I can't really see why you even brought that up.

wolverine beat shang-chi with out the aid of his healing factor,
he has also defeated daredevil with out the aid of his healing factor.
This is just two exampole of many.

Originally posted by Longinus
Team DC vs Team Marvel, this fight is taking the best fighters (IMO) and pitting them against each other, they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind). This is a fight where we put all these fighters so called "fighting skills" to the test. So heres the lineup.

MARVEL
1. Captain America (No Shield)
2. Black Panther
3. Wolverine (no adamantium claws or healing factor)
4. Spiderman (strength is put on Capt's level, no webbing, no spider sense)
5. Daredevil

DC
1. Batman (no gadgets)
2. Batgirl (Cassandra,no gadgets)
3. Green Arrow
4. Nightwing (no gadgets)
5. Deathstroke (no weapons/healing factor)

I believe I made this fairly even and debateable. So which team takes it, it's pretty evenly set with characters on both sides having someone they are relatively equal to on the other team and remeber in fighting, strength & speed are only parts of the equation, you also have to be smart and skillful. So which team has the greater skillz?

Green Arrow and Black Panther and Daredevil ... are the only ones with weapons??!??!?!

DD dodges like crazy. BP's armor takes GA's arrows.. Cap avoids also..
However Spiderman gets tagged and so does wolverine. Wolverine is not known for dodging.. and parker although hyper agile, relies on his spidersense to help him dodge. he'd get tagged too.

BP goes in and cuts up the rest... assuming he doesn't get disarmed by Batman or cassandra. He is on their level of fighting skill, so he isn't getting disarmed easily... odds are he cuts them up.

BP wins in the end. There'll be no getting through that vibranium mesh armor. not by anyone on dc's side if they are all disarmed... bwahahhaha

Deadpool should take on deathstroke not daredevil

There absolutely no way in hell, heaven, or earth that Batgirl wuld beat Wolverine...even without claws or a healing factor. Wolverine still has enhanced strength (enough to lift up a dumpster), enhanced senses, and his vast knowledge in killing (H2H or otherwise). Wolverine owns her.

Not really...

ya really

Nah...

y do u think Batgirl can beat Wolverine? Just please dont say its becuz u dont like Wolverine...that's lame

Because she's a far better fighter... she can learn fighting styles just by looking at someone for a few seconds if I recall.

Logan best asset is his healing factor it has seen him thru in fights that he's abt to lose.

How is that...Wolverine has trained in many different types of fighting styles in his lifetime. He has been alive since the 1800's. He has trained all around the world, mainly in martial arts, and has been a spy, mercenary and soldier.

Originally posted by Wolverine2006
How is that...Wolverine has trained in many different types of fighting styles in his lifetime. He has been alive since the 1800's. He has trained all around the world, mainly in martial arts, and has been a spy, mercenary and soldier. Hmm weird.. I can replace the word Wolverine with Mystique easily, yet no one believes she's a formidable fighter..

Mystique is a good fighter, but I dont think she has as much experience as Wolverine...hes been around for a long time

Originally posted by Wolverine2006
Mystique is a good fighter, but I dont think she has as much experience as Wolverine...hes been around for a long time She's been alive longer...

Exactly. Wolverine is good, u know fighting ninjas and all kind of martial artist but if you notice he takes hits alot but thanks to his HF he beats back hard at them. W/O HF he does not have the leiture to take hits like he did in the past. And the guys from DC throws hits alot.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
She's been alive longer...

Wha? I didnt know that

Originally posted by joesha28
Exactly. Wolverine is good, u know fighting ninjas and all kind of martial artist but if you notice he takes hits alot but thanks to his HF he beats back hard at them. W/O HF he does not have the leiture to take hits like he did in the past. And the guys from DC throws hits alot.

Wolverine gets sloppy becuz he knows he doesnt have to worry about dying.

Originally posted by Longinus
Team DC vs Team Marvel, this fight is taking the best fighters (IMO) and pitting them against each other, they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind). This is a fight where we put all these fighters so called "fighting skills" to the test. So heres the lineup.

MARVEL
1. Captain America (No Shield)
2. Black Panther
3. Wolverine (no adamantium claws or healing factor)
4. Spiderman (strength is put on Capt's level, no webbing, no spider sense)
5. Daredevil

DC
1. Batman (no gadgets)
2. Batgirl (Cassandra,no gadgets)
3. Green Arrow
4. Nightwing (no gadgets)
5. Deathstroke (no weapons/healing factor)

I believe I made this fairly even and debateable. So which team takes it, it's pretty evenly set with characters on both sides having someone they are relatively equal to on the other team and remeber in fighting, strength & speed are only parts of the equation, you also have to be smart and skillful. So which team has the greater skillz?

Wait a sec. Isn't Deathstroke slightly superhuman in strength? That would make him the strongest one, right? And then you went and took away Spidey's strength. I'm not too sure I dig this. Does Spidey still have all his other abilities at his own levels? Super speed, super agility, super reflexes, etc., etc.? I'm going to assume so.

Captain America vs. Batman--Cap

Black Panther vs. Batgirl--BP

Wolverine vs. Green Arrow--Dunno really. GA could definitely hold his own. I may give this to Green Arrow.

Daredevil vs. Nightwing--DD.

Spidey vs. Deathstroke--Spidey.

Team Marvel wins.

Originally posted by Wolverine2006
Mystique is a good fighter, but I dont think she has as much experience as Wolverine...hes been around for a long time

Yea, Mystique is, without a doubt, older and more experienced than Wolvernie.

Originally posted by batdude123
About 5/10. Batman's more skilled. That's right, I said it!!!!!!

Eh they are about even in skills if you ask me

Cap is stronger and faster though.

Bats can win with gadgets but in pure h2h, without weapons for either Cap should win 6/10

With sheild, Cap wins 8-9/10

Bats with weapons, vs Cap w/o sheild, Bats 9/10

Bats with weapons vs Cap with shield, Bats 6/10

Originally posted by capt it up
wtf? how did you ever come to this conclusion? oht hats right you hate wolverine. well news flash for you. wolverine even with out his healign factor is far superior in speed, agility, reflexes,strength, durability.
he also has his sejnse still so he can prodict bat girls attacks while bat girl on the other hand can not read his due to the fact he been able to trick telepathics with ease. he can also go feral or beserker making him self un read able and not to mention he a far superior fighter

Um no

Batgirl is possibly the most skilled fighter in comics

Current Wolverine relies far to much on his healing factor and claws. He would get pretty much owned without them

Classic Wolverine would have a better chance as he actually tried not to get hurt because he actually felt pain back then

Classic Wolverine without Adiantium and healing factor would pwn Batgirl

Originally posted by Broly92
Classic Wolverine without Adiantium and healing factor would pwn Batgirl

Not pwn

He would do a lot better than current wolverine though

Originally posted by Grimm22
Not pwn

He would do a lot better than current wolverine though
Classic was faster than her tougher and a better fighter but yes not pwn more like beat pwn was way too much

Originally posted by Broly92
Classic was faster than her tougher and a better fighter but yes not pwn more like beat pwn was way too much

Faster? Maybe

Tougher?!? This isnt current wolverine we're talking about. He isnt unbeatable

A better fighter?!?! Hell no

Originally posted by Grimm22
Um no

Batgirl is possibly the most skilled fighter in comics

Current Wolverine relies far to much on his healing factor and claws. He would get pretty much owned without them

Classic Wolverine would have a better chance as he actually tried not to get hurt because he actually felt pain back then

Batgirl is possibly the most skilled fighter if you disregard the ones that go over the limit (Karate Kid, anyone?), which is very smart when talking about hand to hand fighting...

Wolverine indeed does rely mostly on his healing factor and claws and that's why it might be reasonable to think that he (as well the other fighters in the match) gets some time to get used to his clawlessness (that can't be a word) and so forth. So no time to learn anything new, but just get used to the idea...

Originally posted by Grimm22
Faster? Maybe

Tougher?!? This isnt current wolverine we're talking about. He isnt unbeatable

A better fighter?!?! Hell no
He fought people who were even with him back then with skill probably at least even
Tougher as in he felt pain when he got hit and got up

Faster yes not by a lot just a little bit

Wolverine definitely relies way too much on his healing factor. For being such a "GREAT" fighter, he sure would've died here had it not been for his healing factor.

http://www.mutanthigh.com/index2.html (I hope that link works okay. If not, I'll send the images one by one when I get home from work).

Wolverine dies just to make everyone on this forum happy

Originally posted by Tshern
Batgirl is possibly the most skilled fighter if you disregard the ones that go over the limit (Karate Kid, anyone?), which is very smart when talking about hand to hand fighting...

Wolverine indeed does rely mostly on his healing factor and claws and that's why it might be reasonable to think that he (as well the other fighters in the match) gets some time to get used to his clawlessness (that can't be a word) and so forth. So no time to learn anything new, but just get used to the idea...

Doh!doh

I forgot about the unbeatable KK

Originally posted by Broly92
He fought people who were even with him back then with skill probably at least even
Tougher as in he felt pain when he got hit and got up

Faster yes not by a lot just a little bit

Good point

Originally posted by Grimm22
Eh they are about even in skills if you ask me

Nope, Batman actually shows skill when he fights. Captain America throws generic kicks and punches and gets praise for it. Captain would only get the majority over Batman because of the super soldier serum.

Originally posted by batdude123
About 5/10. Batman's more skilled. That's right, I said it!!!!!!

You wish, Batdude .

Their skills are approximately even, they are both nearly the best Martial Artist of their respective world, and both have plenty of amazing feats to back up their position. Yes, Batman comics LOOK more fancy, but, honestly, they way it looks doesn't matter. It's all about effectiveness, and they are both about equally effective.

However.

Steve is superior to batman in every characteristic, physically. I won't lie, however, Batman beats the hell out of steve when it comes to intel, or detective work. But on a purely physical plane? Batman is outmatched.

Assuming both combatants are bare-ass-naked, Steve should beat out Batman about eight out of ten times. If they both have their standard aresenal, however, that drops to six out of ten for Steve.

Originally posted by Soljer
You wish, Batdude .

Their skills are approximately even, they are both nearly the best Martial Artist of their respective world, and both have plenty of amazing feats to back up their position. Yes, Batman comics LOOK more fancy, but, honestly, they way it looks doesn't matter. It's all about effectiveness, and they are both about equally effective.

However.

Steve is superior to batman in every characteristic, physically. I won't lie, however, Batman beats the hell out of steve when it comes to intel, or detective work. But on a purely physical plane? Batman is outmatched.

Assuming both combatants are bare-ass-naked, Steve should beat out Batman about eight out of ten times. If they both have their standard aresenal, however, that drops to six out of ten for Steve.

Effectiveness? Batman is MORE effective than Cap is. He'd take you down with just a touch. Captain America is a soldier who FIGHTS extremely FANTASTICALLY well, but honestly Batman is more skilled. Captain America beats Batman in a h2h fight because of the SSS.

Strength- yeah, Captain America is stronger, but Batman with his chi can kick down gigantic trees.

Agility- Yep, Captain America's got him there. Although, Bruce is EXTREMELY agile.

Durability- Batman's suit rocks the house. He's more durable.

Stamina- Yeah, Cap can go longer, but really it's a non factor because Batman has trained himself to ignore dependency on sleep for DAYS.

And with gadgets? Nah, Batman beats him 7-8/10. His suit will f*ckin kick your ass while he's even unconscious. Read "Hush." Anyway, he's got too many crazy gadgets for Stevie boy to overcome.

-batdude OUT!

Originally posted by Longinus
Team DC vs Team Marvel, this fight is taking the best fighters (IMO) and pitting them against each other, they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind). This is a fight where we put all these fighters so called "fighting skills" to the test. So heres the lineup.

MARVEL
1. Captain America (No Shield)
2. Black Panther
3. Wolverine (no adamantium claws or healing factor)
4. Spiderman (strength is put on Capt's level, no webbing, no spider sense)
5. Daredevil

DC
1. Batman (no gadgets)
2. Batgirl (Cassandra,no gadgets)
3. Green Arrow
4. Nightwing (no gadgets)
5. Deathstroke (no weapons/healing factor)

I believe I made this fairly even and debateable. So which team takes it, it's pretty evenly set with characters on both sides having someone they are relatively equal to on the other team and remeber in fighting, strength & speed are only parts of the equation, you also have to be smart and skillful. So which team has the greater skillz?

Captain America provides the leadership and bravado the Marvel team will need to keep up with DC's basic skill advantage. Black Panther is a terrific strategist, while Daredevil will make a terrific addition. However, based on the OP's terms, Spider-man has no powers or special senses, neither does Wolverine. That gives you an untrained Captain America and a headstrong berserker. From the start Marvel is fighting 3v5.

DC lacks a strong leadership role, and combining four loners with Nightwing seems like a bad combination. However, three of these five are all members of the Bats family and understand eachother, GA and DS aren't stupid either, and can easily work in with the group. What this group lacks that Marvel has is a strong leader, Batman perhaps, but he's not known to inspire and lead troops on the level Captain is. Morale is a huge factor in many fights. A couple of months ago I'd say having GA without his gear on this team would make it 4 DC vs 3 Marvel, but his recent upgrade definitly puts him on at LEAST Nightwing's level. At this point you've got three of DC's best martial artists taking on two of Marvel's best with another amazing fighter, an untrained meta and someone about as reliable as a well oiled midget.

I see Spidey getting taken out first, he has no serious fighting prowess (See in the recent Spider-man comic where he had a tough time with Cap, with all his powers enabled) and no abilities due to the OPs terms. Oldschool GA could take him out, nevermind current.

Next up is Wolverine. He'd charge in recklessly, as per usual, and get his shit stomped. Without his powers he's like oldschool Azrael, who Nightwing went toe to toe with. If he decides to fight smart, he's still going to get picked out next, probably by Deathstroke, who does a 10-step on his face.

Now, I'd say either Nightwing or Green Arrow falls next. I'm sure Captain America would be doing his best to protect his teammate, but Black Panther is ruthless enough to sacrifice Spidey or Wolverine to take out any of the DC's, I'm sure he'd aim for Nightwing or Green arrow in an attempt to take out the weaklest links first. One less fighter will make it all the easier.

From here on out its 3v4, and I really don't see the 3 being able to take the 4. Batman can go toe to toe with Caps for an extended period of time, Deathstroke or Batgirl can hang with Black Panther, whoever is left can throw down with Daredevil.

The reality is, the numbers are going to be the turning point.

Switch Spider-man out for Deadpool, Iron Fist, someone, anyone, who actually has fighting prowess, and you'll have a much better fight.

If we did 5 1v1 matches;

1) Captain America takes Batman. Long, excessive fight, I'd give it to Captain. He'd beat Batman the way Azrael has, being faster, stronger, more proficient.

2) Black Panther against Batgirl, with no gadgets or anything... I have no idea. This fight would be insane.

3) Wolverine would get his shit wrecked by Green Arrow.

4) Nightwing kicks Spider-man's ass.

5) Deathstroke, by a mile.

Notice, the OP's terms were; "they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind)" 3 of Marvel's fighters rely on enhanced senses, one uses plenty of gadgets, all of them have their weapons and powers, but only THREE regularly rely heavily on their fighting prowess over these aforementioned abilities and items.

All of the DC guys rely on their fighting prowess, regularly. The only one who doesn't rely as heavily is Green Arrow, but he throws down in melee more often than most think.

Originally posted by batdude123
Effectiveness? Batman is MORE effective than Cap is. He'd take you down with just a touch. Captain America is a soldier who FIGHTS extremely FANTASTICALLY well, but honestly Batman is more skilled. Captain America beats Batman in a h2h fight because of the SSS.

Durability- Batman's suit rocks the house. He's more durable.

And with gadgets? Nah, Batman beats him 7-8/10. His suit will f*ckin kick your ass while he's even unconscious. Read "Hush." Anyway, he's got too many crazy gadgets for Stevie boy to overcome.


I say effectiveness, because they both get the job done. And, despite the fact that Batman's running, jump, double, full, flip, bat-twister-kick looks more fancy, and 'amazing,' that matters very little. Steve still, according to the writers, has an unneering talent to hit a pressure point. Every time. He even went and crushed the tendons in wolverine's arms in order to take his claws out of the fight. Pretty nifty tactic, if you ask me.

On panel, steve's attacks look like simple boxing maneuvers. However, they are far more advanced than that. And believe me, Steve could take a man out with a touch as well.

He's got tha POWA!

As far as durability goes, I would argue in favor of steve. Only because he can take the exact same things as Batman, but without a suit (Don't you dare bring up Superman -_-). Besides that, I was talking about a fight in which they were bare ass naked. Perhaps not literally, but a fight in which each is only in a gi, or something of the sort. No weapons, no defenses. Just two men.

Lastly, as far as with gadgets? To each his own. Opinions are like assholes .

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Captain America provides the leadership and bravado the Marvel team will need to keep up with DC's basic skill advantage. Black Panther is a terrific strategist, while Daredevil will make a terrific addition. However, based on the OP's terms, Spider-man has no powers or special senses, neither does Wolverine. That gives you an untrained Captain America and a headstrong berserker. From the start Marvel is fighting 3v5.

DC lacks a strong leadership role, and combining four loners with Nightwing seems like a bad combination. However, three of these five are all members of the Bats family and understand eachother, GA and DS aren't stupid either, and can easily work in with the group. What this group lacks that Marvel has is a strong leader, Batman perhaps, but he's not known to inspire and lead troops on the level Captain is. Morale is a huge factor in many fights. A couple of months ago I'd say having GA without his gear on this team would make it 4 DC vs 3 Marvel, but his recent upgrade definitly puts him on at LEAST Nightwing's level. At this point you've got three of DC's best martial artists taking on two of Marvel's best with another amazing fighter, an untrained meta and someone about as reliable as a well oiled midget.

I see Spidey getting taken out first, he has no serious fighting prowess (See in the recent Spider-man comic where he had a tough time with Cap, with all his powers enabled) and no abilities due to the OPs terms. Oldschool GA could take him out, nevermind current.

Next up is Wolverine. He'd charge in recklessly, as per usual, and get his shit stomped. Without his powers he's like oldschool Azrael, who Nightwing went toe to toe with. If he decides to fight smart, he's still going to get picked out next, probably by Deathstroke, who does a 10-step on his face.

Now, I'd say either Nightwing or Green Arrow falls next. I'm sure Captain America would be doing his best to protect his teammate, but Black Panther is ruthless enough to sacrifice Spidey or Wolverine to take out any of the DC's, I'm sure he'd aim for Nightwing or Green arrow in an attempt to take out the weaklest links first. One less fighter will make it all the easier.

From here on out its 3v4, and I really don't see the 3 being able to take the 4. Batman can go toe to toe with Caps for an extended period of time, Deathstroke or Batgirl can hang with Black Panther, whoever is left can throw down with Daredevil.

The reality is, the numbers are going to be the turning point.

Switch Spider-man out for Deadpool, Iron Fist, someone, anyone, who actually has fighting prowess, and you'll have a much better fight.

If we did 5 1v1 matches;

1) Captain America takes Batman. Long, excessive fight, I'd give it to Captain. He'd beat Batman the way Azrael has, being faster, stronger, more proficient.

2) Black Panther against Batgirl, with no gadgets or anything... I have no idea. This fight would be insane.

3) Wolverine would get his shit wrecked by Green Arrow.

4) Nightwing kicks Spider-man's ass.

5) Deathstroke, by a mile.

Notice, the OP's terms were; "they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind)" 3 of Marvel's fighters rely on enhanced senses, one uses plenty of gadgets, all of them have their weapons and powers, but only THREE regularly rely heavily on their fighting prowess over these aforementioned abilities and items.

All of the DC guys rely on their fighting prowess, regularly. The only one who doesn't rely as heavily is Green Arrow, but he throws down in melee more often than most think.


*Leaps into the Jump rope*


I pretty much agree with this, only 1 thing I might add, BP is the most durable out of all these fighters, his vibranium suit can take just about anything, and DC team has nothing thats going to penetrate it, BP could take out Batgirl just because of this alone as well as one more person.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
*Leaps into the Jump rope*


I pretty much agree with this, only 1 thing I might add, BP is the most durable out of all these fighters, his vibranium suit can take just about anything, and DC team has nothing thats going to penetrate it, BP could take out Batgirl just because of this alone as well as one more person.

He has no suit. Read the OP's terms.

Originally posted by Soljer
I say effectiveness, because they both get the job done. And, despite the fact that Batman's running, jump, double, full, flip, bat-twister-kick looks more fancy, and 'amazing,' that matters very little. Steve still, according to the writers, has an unneering talent to hit a pressure point. Every time. He even went and crushed the tendons in wolverine's arms in order to take his claws out of the fight. Pretty nifty tactic, if you ask me.

On panel, steve's attacks look like simple boxing maneuvers. However, they are far more advanced than that. And believe me, Steve could take a man out with a touch as well.

He's got tha POWA!

As far as durability goes, I would argue in favor of steve. Only because he can take the exact same things as Batman, but without a suit (Don't you dare bring up Superman -_-). Besides that, I was talking about a fight in which they were bare ass naked. Perhaps not literally, but a fight in which each is only in a gi, or something of the sort. No weapons, no defenses. Just two men.

Lastly, as far as with gadgets? To each his own. Opinions are like assholes .



Actually, based on consistent showings, Batman is the more skilled combatant. Captain does show simple techniques that do get the job done. However, it's pretty clear that Batman is more versatile in the field of fighting. He adapts well to any situation of fighters. We're talking about a guy who trained and stalemated Cass, has a winning record against Shiva, and stalemated Richard F*CKING Dragon. Give Batman the juice, and I see him owning Steve.

Durability still goes to Batman. The suit allows him to absorb superhuman punches and a variety of other punishments.

And fine (but gadgets still rock the house).

Originally posted by Nataku8188

3) Wolverine would get his shit wrecked by Green Arrow.

4) Nightwing kicks Spider-man's ass.


I agree with everything but these two
3. not sure which Green Arrow but neither will kill Classic Wolverine without powers (Ollie will lose) his son will be a good fight with him winning but not sh** reckded


4.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Because she's a far better fighter... she can learn fighting styles just by looking at someone for a few seconds if I recall.

Impossible for humans to do PIS!

Im lost. Daredevil is able to see, but does he still have his senses? Some, none or all?

Wait a minute. I just looed at the OP again and it states that nobody has gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses?

So Cap doesnt have the SS serum?
BP doesnt have the special herb or suit?
Isnt Deathstroke enhanced as well?
Wouldnt Batgils "pre-cog" be eliminated as well?

Originally posted by jrodslam
Wait a minute. I just looed at the OP again and it states that nobody has gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses?

So Cap doesnt have the SS serum?
BP doesnt have the special herb or suit?
Isnt Deathstroke enhanced as well?
Wouldnt Batgils "pre-cog" be eliminated as well?

Batgirl would still have her pre-cog because it's a learned skill.

how are they going to hit spiderman, and spides still can speedblitz.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Impossible for humans to do PIS! That's her described power.

Originally posted by batdude123
Batgirl would still have her pre-cog because it's a learned skill.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Broly92
I agree with everything but these two
3. not sure which Green Arrow but neither will kill Classic Wolverine without powers (Ollie will lose) his son will be a good fight with him winning but not sh** reckded


4.

Current Ollie can hang with Deathstroke. 'Nuff Said.

Spider-man with nothing but enhanced strength is pretty worthless. Nightwing can hang with Azrael, and Spider-man on these terms isn't even on that level. Remember, he has no special senses or abilities.

Originally posted by bigbran
how are they going to hit spiderman, and spides still can speedblitz.

NO POWERS. I.E. Spider-man is WORTHLESS.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Current Ollie can hang with Deathstroke. 'Nuff Said.

Spider-man with nothing but enhanced strength is pretty worthless. Nightwing can hang with Azrael, and Spider-man on these terms isn't even on that level. Remember, he has no special senses or abilities.

Uhhh...the original poster said that Spiderman's strength is put on Captain America's level, and he is barred from using webbing and spider sense. He is STILL the fastest and most agile character here. He can still use his 'spider' martial arts. He just doesn't have as much strength to back it up, nor does he have the Spider-sense to make him untouchable.

Cassandra could probably beat Bats in just straight Head2Head, especially with her ability to "read" an opponent, I don't find it too suprising that Wolverine would lose. He is good, but he relies on his healing factor way too often, Cass's ability to read movements secures her the advantage.

Spidey should have his precog, without it he doesn't really have much at all. Wall crawling, speed and agility, he is decent I guess. Not useless but decent.

Originally posted by capt it up
true


true


wtf? how did you ever come to this conclusion? oht hats right you hate wolverine. well news flash for you. wolverine even with out his healign factor is far superior in speed, agility, reflexes,strength, durability.
he also has his sejnse still so he can prodict bat girls attacks while bat girl on the other hand can not read his due to the fact he been able to trick telepathics with ease. he can also go feral or beserker making him self un read able and not to mention he a far superior fighter



true


true Is there anyone you think Logan can lose to

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Cassandra could probably beat Bats in just straight Head2Head, especially with her ability to "read" an opponent, I don't find it too suprising that Wolverine would lose. He is good, but he relies on his healing factor way too often, Cass's ability to read movements secures her the advantage.

Spidey should have his precog, without it he doesn't really have much at all. Webbing, wall crawling, speed and agility, he is decent I guess. Not useless but decent.

Didn't batman stalemate her, using only one hand for the majority of the fight, and holding back quite a bit?

.....

At the BEST, Cass (WITH her 'reading' ability) is Bruce's equal. Not at all his superior.

Originally posted by Soljer
Didn't batman stalemate her, using only one hand for the majority of the fight, and holding back quite a bit?

.....

At the BEST, Cass (WITH her 'reading' ability) is Bruce's equal. Not at all his superior. I'm saying if their strength and everything is on the same level...

Originally posted by A.J
Is there anyone you think Logan can lose to

While it is funny because Capt is a blatant fanboy, I really don't think Cass is gonna destroy him, or anything. Win a majority? Maybe, maybe not. But, honestly, Wolverine IS one of the best fighters in Marvel. He takes a lot of hits because he KNOWS he can, and in the instances where he couldn't afford to take a hit, he has dodged it. Wolverine doesn't get enough credit, sometimes, and at others...he gets far too much.

Still, Wolverine is enhanced human in most ways, physically. I think he would be a slight step above Cass. Even if cass is the better fighter, and has the ability to read Wolverine.

Would she win? Sure. Would it be a curb-stomp-land-slide? No...I don't think so.

Originally posted by Soljer
While it is funny because Capt is a blatant fanboy, I really don't think Cass is gonna destroy him, or anything. Win a majority? Maybe, maybe not. But, honestly, Wolverine IS one of the best fighters in Marvel. He takes a lot of hits because he KNOWS he can, and in the instances where he couldn't afford to take a hit, he has dodged it. Wolverine doesn't get enough credit, sometimes, and at others...he gets far too much.

Still, Wolverine is enhanced human in most ways, physically. I think he would be a slight step above Cass. Even if cass is the better fighter, and has the ability to read Wolverine.

Would she win? Sure. Would it be a curb-stomp-land-slide? No...I don't think so. If he didn't have fanboys like captaround then he would get more respect, if they just said that Logan loses people would respect him, because they arent so annoyed by fanboys, so to get him respect just admit it and dont be so stupid.

I used to like him, then i came here and now...well i don't

Originally posted by Soljer
While it is funny because Capt is a blatant fanboy, I really don't think Cass is gonna destroy him, or anything. Win a majority? Maybe, maybe not. But, honestly, Wolverine IS one of the best fighters in Marvel. He takes a lot of hits because he KNOWS he can, and in the instances where he couldn't afford to take a hit, he has dodged it. Wolverine doesn't get enough credit, sometimes, and at others...he gets far too much.

Still, Wolverine is enhanced human in most ways, physically. I think he would be a slight step above Cass. Even if cass is the better fighter, and has the ability to read Wolverine.

Would she win? Sure. Would it be a curb-stomp-land-slide? No...I don't think so. Like I said I don't think Logan would lose horribly, but Cassandra now has the means to secure the match.

Cap pretty much got no handicap, while others lost pretty much who they were. I guess Peter could sit on a wall somewhere.

Jesus this has gotten out of control, let me reiterate (hope I spelled that right) no powers (learned abilities are allowed EXCEPT RADAR VISION because it's like stripping away the serum from Captain.) no weapons (bow and arrows are weapons for you retards) no gadgets FOR ANYONE. Since BP has a vibranium suit which is damn durable, he now has a suit made with the exact same materials as Batman's suit. Another thing SPIDERMAN's strength is on CAPTAIN's LEVEL so no punching heads off. Matter of fact scratch that DEADPOOL IS REPLACING SPIDERMAN, since people feel he is a better fighter and his strength and abilities are on CAPTAIN's LEVEL AND NO HEALING FACTOR, start debating again, oh AND HE DOESN'T HAVE WEAPONS EITHER for you retards.

Cap beats batman 6/10

Originally posted by Droopy
Cap beats batman 6/10

Yes.

And Steve beats Bruce 8/10. .

I just smashed a big bug with my Spiderman book...

I love the way this guy insults, puts me in the mood...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I just smashed a big bug with my Spiderman book...

I love the way this guy insults, puts me in the mood...

What you talking about one time time I was naked and there was a spider in the shower so I had to squish it naked

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes.

And Steve beats Bruce 8/10. .

Nope. disgust

I personally find batman to be the better fighter/hero considering he didn't have to be amped to whoop everyone's ass, he actually trained intensely and honed his skillz and uses his intelligence to overcome his enemies, give him the juice (lol) like batdude said and I see Batman becoming a spiderman or higher level character. He'd be rippin everyone then. DC takes this after a hard fought battle 8/10

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes.

And Steve beats Bruce 8/10. .

Yep pretty much

bump

thorinn

Originally posted by batdude123
thorinn

why the face?

Originally posted by Droopy
Cap beats batman 6/10
If both guys have their stuff, Batman beats Cap 6/10. Cap's tactic and technique is simple combined with speed and agility. Batman does edge him with skill. In the physical plane Steve sure to edge out Bruce. When the toys are in play that it's time to say goodnight Cap.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's her described power.

I dont care LOL! You think about it, how can a person study another persons fighting ability in a few seconds, thats impossible because its not possible for another human to do enough moves in a couple of seconds.

What would a martial art consist of...kicks, punches, throws, grappling, locking moves, evasion moves, and its possible for a human or peakhuman or whatever to do that all in a few seconds?

That ability isnt like what savants have in the real world were they can memorise alot of information in short periods....BUT...they see all the information first. What Batgirl does is premontion were she has understood a persons fighting style before she has seen it all.

I personaly dont care, I am just using your agruement against you. Often when we talk about what Captain America or what Batman can do you are always telling us that they cant do this and that because they are supposed to be only peak human.

In the case of Batgirl you should have been screaming blue murder because what she does is not possible by human or peak human standards. You are also telling us that it is possible regardless of what I think because the comics say so, this is what we were constantly telling you in the Cap vs Spidey thread.

You're not using my argument against me. Your analogy is flawed and doesn't have legs to stand on. It isn't PIS, the meaning of which you apparently still haven't grasped. It's not even SvFL because it's her described power.

Captain America cannot beat Spider-Man without PIS or CIS, SM doesn't use his abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within his personality range, for the sake of the story plotline and is under the influence of natural mental limitations that he imposes upon himself that reduce his ability to use his own skills and powers effectively.

The part of Batgirl's brain meant for speech adapted to be literate in kinesics to the point that she can predict movements and learn styles incredibly fast. Batgirl using her described power isn't PIS. If Batgirl fights Wonder Woman and WW doesn't use her strength, speed, agility, flight, weapons etc advantages that she's shown throughout her appearances then it is PIS.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're not using my argument against me. Your analogy is flawed and doesn't have legs to stand on. It isn't PIS, the meaning of which you apparently still haven't grasped. It's not even SvFL because it's her described power.

Captain America cannot beat Spider-Man without PIS or CIS, SM doesn't use his abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within his personality range, for the sake of the story plotline and is under the influence of natural mental limitations that he imposes upon himself that reduce his ability to use his own skills and powers effectively.

The part of Batgirl's brain meant for speech adapted to be literate in kinesics to the point that she can predict movements and learn styles incredibly fast. Batgirl using her described power isn't PIS. If Batgirl fights Wonder Woman and WW doesn't use her strength, speed, agility, flight, weapons etc advantages that she's shown throughout her appearances then it is PIS.

I think i do understand PIS, you think its PIS because basically they are humans and should not be able to do the things that they do....right?

I dont care wh

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think i do understand PIS, you think its PIS because basically they are humans and should not be able to do the things that they do....right?

I dont care wh What? Read. Comprehend.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're not using my argument against me. Your analogy is flawed and doesn't have legs to stand on. It isn't PIS, the meaning of which you apparently still haven't grasped. It's not even SvFL because it's her described power.

Captain America cannot beat Spider-Man without PIS or CIS, SM doesn't use his abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within his personality range, for the sake of the story plotline and is under the influence of natural mental limitations that he imposes upon himself that reduce his ability to use his own skills and powers effectively.

The part of Batgirl's brain meant for speech adapted to be literate in kinesics to the point that she can predict movements and learn styles incredibly fast. Batgirl using her described power isn't PIS. If Batgirl fights Wonder Woman and WW doesn't use her strength, speed, agility, flight, weapons etc advantages that she's shown throughout her appearances then it is PIS.

I think i do understand PIS, you think its PIS because basically they are humans and should not be able to do the things that they do....right? We do not even consider it to be PIS because as far as we are concerned peak humans in the comic universe can keep up with superhumans

I dont care what funky words you use to describe her ability. Im gonna ask you again how can you predict a persons fighting style in a few seconds.....without seeing the whole thing????? How fast can a human being move in a couple of seconds.....its not possible.

Like I said to you before its not like learning alot of information really fast, because the person has already seen the information.

Im sorry its damn hypocrisy it should not be possible and basically you said because thats her described power in the comic you said it was ok.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's her described power.

We already know Spidey vs Firelord is bull and we know batgirl vs WW would be bull too....please dont use DS vs Flash again.

Sorry posted something by accident.

No im sorry I understand PIS, you say that characters are holding back because basically thats the only explanation why non superhuman characters can fight them.

Sorry posted something by accident.

No im sorry I understand PIS, you say that characters are holding back because basically thats the only explanation why non superhuman characters can fight them.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think i do understand PIS, you think its PIS because basically they are humans and should not be able to do the things that they do....right? We do not even consider it to be PIS because as far as we are concerned peak humans in the comic universe can keep up with superhumans

I dont care what funky words you use to describe her ability. Im gonna ask you again how can you predict a persons fighting style in a few seconds.....without seeing the whole thing????? How fast can a human being move in a couple of seconds.....its not possible.

Like I said to you before its not like learning alot of information really fast, because the person has already seen the information.

Im sorry its damn hypocrisy it should not be possible and basically you said because thats her described power in the comic you said it was ok.

We already know Spidey vs Firelord is bull and we know batgirl vs WW would be bull too....please dont use DS vs Flash again. First off, do you even read other people's posts before you go on a martyr kick? Secondly who exactly are "we"? Are you a gestalt? Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're not using my argument against me. Your analogy is flawed and doesn't have legs to stand on. It isn't PIS, the meaning of which you apparently still haven't grasped. It's not even SvFL because it's her described power.

Captain America cannot beat Spider-Man without PIS or CIS, SM doesn't use his abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within his personality range, for the sake of the story plotline and is under the influence of natural mental limitations that he imposes upon himself that reduce his ability to use his own skills and powers effectively.

The part of Batgirl's brain meant for speech adapted to be literate in kinesics to the point that she can predict movements and learn styles incredibly fast. Batgirl using her described power isn't PIS. If Batgirl fights Wonder Woman and WW doesn't use her strength, speed, agility, flight, weapons etc advantages that she's shown throughout her appearances then it is PIS.

oooops sorry double post its was an accident!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
First off, do you even read other people's posts before you go on a martyr kick? Secondly who exactly are "we"? Are you a gestalt?

Damn well used "we" if I feel like it.

Its hopeless debating with you I actually understand what you' re saying, but you dont make an effort to actually see where im coming from and ignore my questions.

You repeat the same thing and its not answering anything I said.....


Originally posted by Alfheim
I think i do understand PIS, you think its PIS because basically they are humans and should not be able to do the things that they do....right?


You are saying the superhumans dont fight to their full ability when fighting humans but you would not say that if the humans were superhuman. ( Hope that makes sense). In other words when humans fight superhumans or do superhuman feats they should not be able to do this for example Batgirls fighting ability or you could argue Caps nerve strikes on superhumans. Even if its not PIS its an important factor of PIS....humans doing things to superhumans that they should not be able to do.


Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont care what funky words you use to describe her ability. Im gonna ask you again how can you predict a persons fighting style in a few seconds.....without seeing the whole thing?????


Are you actually going to answer this question?

It doesn't matter because that's her described power, Namor can fly and Superman has heat vision, Cyclops shoots concussive force from his eyes, Cypher had the ability to learn and understand languages instantly.

You say you understand the concept when you clearly haven't quite got it. Characters be they superhuman or not that don't fight to the fullest of their abilities to further the plot undergo PIS. Thor fights other superhumans without using Mjolnir to the extent he's shown he can, that is PIS. If Lady Shiva lost to Nightwing it would be PIS.

Characters performing things beyond their prescribed abilities is SvFL.

Batgirl using her abilities is neither.

The forum is based on the removal of CIS, PIS and SvFL, because writers take liberties to progress stories. There is no basis for me to "make an effort" to see your view why PIS or SvFL should be allowed, because it isn't.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It doesn't matter because that's her described power, Namor can fly and Superman has heat vision, Cyclops shoots concussive force from his eyes, Cypher had the ability to learn and understand languages instantly.


Um those are all superhumans Batgirl is not.....bad examples. In fact I think someone used this example to explain why Cap can hurt Spidey and other superhumans but you werent having it.....double standards.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Characters performing things beyond their prescribed abilities is SvFL.
.

Hmm really.....so whats this then
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
PIS on the part of the gorillas...

You posted that after someone said Batman beat up a bunch of gorillas. Hmmmm...interesting that sounds like SvFL to me, in other words beating up a bunch of gorillas is far beyond batmans abilities. Interestingly enough you decided to call it PIS on the part of the gorillas, in other words humans doing things that are far beyond their ability is PIS.

So basically Batgirl should not be able to analyze another persons (Wolverine in this case)style within a few seconds because its not possible for a human being to do, so basically according to what you said its PIS and SvFL

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The forum is based on the removal of CIS, PIS and SvFL, because writers take liberties to progress stories. There is no basis for me to "make an effort" to see your view why PIS or SvFL should be allowed, because it isn't.

Yeah sure because you make it up as you go along. Anything you dont like you start screaming PIS!

Answer the question!


Originally posted by Alfheim

how can you predict a persons fighting style in a few seconds.....without seeing the whole thing????? How fast can a human being move in a couple of seconds.....its not possible.

Like I said to you before its not like learning alot of information really fast, because the person has already seen the information.

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Do you have reading comprehension issues?

No I do not. If you have given me an explanation, that means its not satisfactory.

Everything ive said on that post makes sense.....now what you're gonna do now is ignore it.....pretend that you have given a satisfactory answer.

Thats how you debate, you give an unsatisfactory explanation and leave it at that.

Funnily enough I dont seem to have a problem understanding what other people are saying.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Um those are all superhumans Batgirl is not.....bad examples. In fact I think someone used this example to explain why Cap can hurt Spidey and other superhumans but you werent having it.....double standards. Mutants are homo sapien subspecies with a mutated X gene that alters them giving them abilities. Cypher's only power is to understand languages instantly, his mind operated differently and could make leaps of comprehension. Forge's subconscious mind works through the steps he needs to invent things automatically.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You posted that after someone said Batman beat up a bunch of gorillas. Hmmmm...interesting that sounds like SvFL to me, in other words beating up a bunch of gorillas is far beyond batmans abilities. Interestingly enough you decided to call it PIS on the part of the gorillas, in other words humans doing things that are far beyond their ability is PIS. Depends on whether you know the capabilities of a single gorilla. Or a group of them. Do you?
Originally posted by Alfheim
So basically Batgirl should not be able to analyze another persons (Wolverine in this case)style within a few seconds because its not possible for a human being to do, so basically according to what you said its PIS and SvFLI asked if you have reading comprehension issues. Answer honestly I promise not to make fun.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah sure because you make it up as you go along. Anything you dont like you start screaming PIS!Actually that's more a description of what you do, since you still seem to fail to understand the meaning of the phrase even after numerous explanations. For the most part the definition has been copied and pasted too, so the culpability for your inability to understand it I pass to Tron.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Answer the question! It's her power.

I tire of your inability to understand simple concepts which are part of the premise of the forum. If Captain America beats Karate Kid in a comic, you'd probably just accept it as usable in the forum.

Originally posted by Longinus
Team DC vs Team Marvel, this fight is taking the best fighters (IMO) and pitting them against each other, they will have no access to gadgets, weapons, powers, or any inate senses (Daredevil won't be blind). This is a fight where we put all these fighters so called "fighting skills" to the test. So heres the lineup.

MARVEL
1. Captain America (No Shield)
2. Black Panther
3. Wolverine (no adamantium claws or healing factor)
4. Deadpool (no healing factor, no weapons)
5. Daredevil

DC
1. Batman (no gadgets)
2. Batgirl (Cassandra,no gadgets)
3. Green Arrow
4. Nightwing (no gadgets)
5. Deathstroke (no weapons/healing factor)

I believe I made this fairly even and debateable. So which team takes it, it's pretty evenly set with characters on both sides having someone they are relatively equal to on the other team and remeber in fighting, strength & speed are only parts of the equation, you also have to be smart and skillful. So which team has the greater skillz?

I replaced Spidey with Deadpool, like you said.

Team Marvel wins. Just barely.

Originally posted by Wolverine2006
There absolutely no way in hell, heaven, or earth that Batgirl wuld beat Wolverine...even without claws or a healing factor. Wolverine still has enhanced strength (enough to lift up a dumpster), enhanced senses, and his vast knowledge in killing (H2H or otherwise). Wolverine owns her.

Please dont give me that dumpster crap

Oh and read the rules, no senses

Batgirl's Skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolverine's Skills

Wolverine gets ripped apart

Originally posted by batdude123
Nope, Batman actually shows skill when he fights. Captain America throws generic kicks and punches and gets praise for it. Captain would only get the majority over Batman because of the super soldier serum.

Yeah because all Cap does is throw kicks and punches right

Originally posted by Alfheim
Impossible for humans to do PIS!

What you don't???

Pft, everyone I know can

Originally posted by Grimm22
Yeah because all Cap does is throw kicks and punches right He rolls sometimes too... and blocks with the shield a lot... baka

Originally posted by Nataku8188
NO POWERS. I.E. Spider-man is WORTHLESS.

Pretty much

Originally posted by Grimm22
Pretty much

Spidey wouldn't be worthless. The only things taken away were his super strength (reduced to Cap's level so it's still really good), webbing, and his spider-sense.

Even with those three gone, he's still:

-The fastest
-The most durable
-The most agile and has the best equilibrium
-The one with the fastest reflexes
-The one with the most unique, unpredictable fighting style

If anything, Spidey is the most useful here. But he's gone now, replaced with Deadpool. So this whole counter-argument was pretty much futile. But really, I just wanted to prove a point.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Mutants are homo sapien subspecies with a mutated X gene that alters them giving them abilities. Cypher's only power is to understand languages instantly, his mind operated differently and could make leaps of comprehension. Forge's subconscious mind works through the steps he needs to invent things instantly.


So...what....! Is batgirl a mutant....no! Why are you giving me examples of mutants and superhumans when batgirl is not? You cant understand the problem with this example and you're insulting me!!!

You cant give examples of mutants and superhumans because that explains what they do. Batgirl is not mutant or superhuman so she should not be able to do what she does.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Depends on whether you know the capabilities of a single gorilla. Or a group of them. Do you?


Now hold it right there! YOU said it was PIS..thats what YOU said, now you're changing you're tune and telling me it....depends. Oh I get it, you' re changing you're tune. You orignally said it was PIS and you suddenly have realised that it could be SvFL or both.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I asked if you have reading comprehension issues. Answer honestly I promise not to make fun.


No you just cant explain yourself properly.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I tire of your inability to understand simple concepts which are part of the premise of the forum. If Captain America beats Karate Kid in a comic, you'd probably just accept it as useable in the forum.


No you failed. I said Cap vs Iceman he loses. I said Cap Vs Namor he loses. I said Cap Vs Iron Spidey loses the majority....but if Iron Spidey does not use stealth mode that is PIS. I dont know who Karate Kid...the name sucks as well.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I tire of your inability to understand simple concepts which are part of the premise of the forum.


Stop making excuses. If I dont understand the concepts of this forum its because you're confusing me. It seems to me there are different ways of intepretating SvFL and PIS but you think there is only one.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Spidey wouldn't be worthless. The only things taken away were his super strength (reduced to Cap's level so it's still really good), webbing, and his spider-sense.

Even with those three gone, he's still:

-The fastest
-The most durable
-The most agile and has the best equilibrium
-The one with the fastest reflexes
-The one with the most unique, unpredictable fighting style

If anything, Spidey is the most useful here. But he's gone now, replaced with Deadpool. So this whole counter-argument was pretty much futile. But really, I just wanted to prove a point.


I agree with you on all but one point, BP style would be more unpredictable then spideys (in this Thread at least), remember, spidey utilizes his spidey sense and webbing in conjunction with his style of fighting.

Well, at the same time I have to admit it wouldn't necessarily be BP fighting style alone that makes him unpredictable, it would also be his intelligence. Remember the Ironman fight, Tonys advanced Combat Logic computers that were supposed to predict BP every move couldn't keep up with what he was doing, Because BP changed his style all together.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I agree with you on all but one point, BP style would be more unpredictable then spideys (in this Thread at least), remember, spidey utilizes his spidey sense and webbing in conjunction with his style of fighting.

Well, at the same time I have to admit it wouldn't necessarily be BP fighting style alone that makes him unpredictable, it would also be his intelligence. Remember the Ironman fight, Tonys advanced Combat Logic computers that were supposed to predict BP every move couldn't keep up with what he was doing, Because BP changed his style all together.

And while I agree that BP, too, is incredibly unpredictable, I feel that Spidey's is more so. He doesn't always necessarily need his webbing to utilize his fighting style. He doesn't necessarily need his spider-sense either, ==> Venom and Carnage for two examples.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So...what....! Is batgirl a mutant....no! Why are you giving me examples of mutants and superhumans when batgirl is not? You cant understand the problem with this example and you're insulting me!!!

You cant give examples of mutants and superhumans because that explains what they do. Batgirl is not mutant or superhuman so she should not be able to do what she does. Do you not understand the whole thing about her while being human having altered neural physiology?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Now hold it right there! YOU said it was PIS..thats what YOU said, now you're changing you're tune and telling me it....depends. Oh I get it, you' re changing you're tune. You orignally said it was PIS and you suddenly have realised that it could be SvFL or both. Do you actually have reading comprehension issues? Subtlety appears lost on you completely.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No you just cant explain yourself properly. Please, I'm the most eloquent person here, the most modest too.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No you failed. I said Cap vs Iceman he loses. I said Cap Vs Namor he loses. I said Cap Vs Iron Spidey loses the majority....but if Iron Spidey does not use stealth mode that is PIS. I dont know who Karate Kid...the name sucks as well. Anybody plain as day knowing the capabilities of both Iceman and Captain America knows Iceman wins. Likewise Namor. You refused this, and repeatedly asked why "Iceman was handed his ass" in a comic. And no, that would be CIS, character being retarded.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Stop making excuses. If I dont understand the concepts of this forum its because you're confusing me. It seems to me there are different ways of intepretating SvFL and PIS but you think there is only one. Everybody, myself included have been extremely patient with you. No one likes a martyr.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And while I agree that BP, too, is incredibly unpredictable, I feel that Spidey's is more so. He doesn't always necessarily need his webbing to utilize his fighting style. He doesn't necessarily need his spider-sense either, ==> Venom and Carnage for two examples.


I agree, like I said in my second paragraph, it wasn't completely because of his fighting style, it was also his intelligence too.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
I agree, like I said in my second paragraph, it wasn't completely because of his fighting style, it was also his intelligence too.

Agreed. Though Spidey has also exhibited the same sort of intelligence necessary to disable his opponents mid-fight.

But I know what you're saying, and I agree.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Do you not understand the whole thing about her while being human having altered neural physiology?

What you mean this....

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The part of Batgirl's brain meant for speech adapted to be literate in kinesics to the point that she can predict movements and learn styles incredibly fast. Batgirl using her described power isn't PIS.

This is what im telling you...that explanation is not satisfactory. That is not a power. Is that a power? Thats a skill, what im telling you is that people in the real world have similar abilities but they read lots of information in little time, but they see the information first. A person cannot move fast enough within a few seconds for her to predict it...its not possible.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Anybody plain as day knowing the capabilities of both Iceman and Captain America knows Iceman wins. Likewise Namor. You refused this, and repeatedly asked why "Iceman was handed his ass" in a comic.


No you failed again. I have not read the comics they have read. How did they convince me, they convinced me by showing me comic clips. When they showed me the comic clips I agreed with them.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And no, that would be CIS, character being retarded.


Actually I think you are right there, but you also agreed afterwards that Bats fighting a group of Gorrilas could be SVFL and not PIS, so you dont always get it right either.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Everybody, myself included have been extremely patient with you. No one likes a martyr.

By the way when I used the word "we" earlier on I should not have done this, but this thing about people being patient with me....i dunno about that some people agree with me.

Wait a minute if Iron Spidey not using stealth mode is CIS, why isnt this example CIS too

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Thor fights other superhumans without using Mjolnir to the extent he's shown he can, that is PIS.

The restraint of abilities is plot induced a fight wouldn't last two pages if Thor just teleported enemies away. Spider-Man not using stealth is a mixture of CIS and PIS, he respects Captain America he won't fight him entirely in stealth mode, at the same time he isn't written in stealth mode as a lowering of his abilities to extend fights.Originally posted by Alfheim
This is what im telling you...that explanation is not satisfactory. That is not a power. Is that a power? Thats a skill, what im telling you is that people in the real world have similar abilities but they read lots of information in little time, but they see the information first. A person cannot move fast enough within a few seconds for her to predict it...its not possible.Her brain developed a different physiological function. It functions physiologically differently to e.g. Batman or Wolverine's. It is used for kinesic literacy to the extent that she can learn skills and predict moves. Her brain had to be telepathically rewired for her to learn spoken language. It is a described power.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No you failed again. I have not read the comics they have read. How did they convince me, they convinced me by showing me comic clips. When they showed me the comic clips I agreed with them. You've been shown what Spider-Man can do.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually I think you are right there, but you also agreed afterwards that Bats fighting a group of Gorrilas could be SVFL and not PIS, so you dont always get it right either.No i didn't. Read and understand. It's not as if I'm posting cryptic crosswords here.
Originally posted by Alfheim
By the way when I used the word "we" earlier on I should not have done this, but this thing about people being patient with me....i dunno about that some people agree with me. That's nice.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Spider-Man not using stealth is a mixture of CIS and PIS,


Yeah but I said that Spidey not using stealth mode was PIS, you said...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And no, that would be CIS, character being retarded.


So now its both PIS and CIS....I see.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
he respects Captain America he won't fight him entirely in stealth mode, at the same time he isn't written in stealth mode as a lowering of his abilities to extend fights.


People have already anwsered that, like I said sometimes you just ignore what people tell you. Cap.... has.... fought.... people on a similar level, who were not holding back.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Her brain had to be telepathically rewired for her to learn spoken language. It is a power.


Xmarksthespot I looked over the while thread. I dont remember you saying that it was telepathically rewired. You didnt say that before. Ok you're right it is a power.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You've been shown what Spider-Man can do.


You've been shown what Cap can do.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No i didn't. Read and understand. It's not as if I'm posting cryptic crosswords here.


You said that Batman fighting a group of gorillas was PIS on the part of the Gorillas. I said it could be PIS and SvFL. You then said...


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Depends on whether you know the capabilities of a single gorilla. Or a group of them. Do you?


The keyword is depends. You dont know what depends means? So you said it depends and now you're saying its not an admission that it could be SvFL.

You just make it up as you go along.

Fights are not PIS or CIS mutually exclusive.

You have poor reading comprehension skills. That's really all we've established here.

Is it PIS? Depends on if you know the capabilities of a single gorilla, and a group of them? Then yes it is, because a gorilla can backhand a couple of hundred points with a glancing minimal effort. These were intelligent telekinetic gorillas.

bump!

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I replaced Spidey with Deadpool, like you said.

Team Marvel wins. Just barely.

Thanx alot, hopefully this gets rid of people saying Spidey is useless.

Originally posted by Grimm22
Yeah because all Cap does is throw kicks and punches right

No, he's quite agile as well. baka But Bruce is more skilled.

Originally posted by Longinus
Thanx alot, hopefully this gets rid of people saying Spidey is useless.

Yea, if you saw the post I made later to Grimm's comment, you'll see that I fully support the usefullness of Spider-Man. In fact, he's Team Marvel's best asset here.

But, he is gone now. Deadpool was a good addition, however. His mix of highly skilled martial art ability and his extreme unpredictability make him quite the formiddable opponent.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Yea, if you saw the post I made later to Grimm's comment, you'll see that I fully support the usefullness of Spider-Man. In fact, he's Team Marvel's best asset here.

But, he is gone now. Deadpool was a good addition, however. His mix of highly skilled martial art ability and his extreme unpredictability make him quite the formiddable opponent.

Yea, I mean even after I depowered Spider he was still good, agility, strength and superhuman reactions made him one of the best fighters.

Originally posted by Longinus
Yea, I mean even after I depowered Spider he was still good, agility, strength and superhuman reactions made him one of the best fighters.

Exactly. People were just confused, they thought that because in the top part of your post you mentioned "no powers," that he got NOTHING.

With his amazing speed, and agility? Combined with Captain America level strength? He definitely would have been an asset.

But deadpool is amazing, as well. So long as he is fighting seriously.

I think the main point people are trying to make by saying spidey is useless is because he lost his strength, Because now he has nothing to make up for lack of skill, yes he has a very unique style, but his strength is a part of that style, take that away and it is quite easy to get over it because it won't pack enough power, he's still the fastest but against someone like batman he would be beaten 1 his speed may also decrease due to lack of strength but I don't wanna start that argument again, and without his webbing and strength he's lost 2 valuble weapons...against a less skilled character however he would still be useful.

Why did i say all that he's not even in this fight any more hmmmm.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Spidey wouldn't be worthless. The only things taken away were his super strength (reduced to Cap's level so it's still really good), webbing, and his spider-sense.

Even with those three gone, he's still:

-The fastest
-The most durable
-The most agile and has the best equilibrium
-The one with the fastest reflexes
-The one with the most unique, unpredictable fighting style

If anything, Spidey is the most useful here. But he's gone now, replaced with Deadpool. So this whole counter-argument was pretty much futile. But really, I just wanted to prove a point.

With all his powers he was getting his ass beat on by Captain America.

Point proven.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
With all his powers he was getting his ass beat on by Captain America.

Point proven.

Doesn't matter. He's out of the fight. And Captain America is a bad example - Cap had previously studied Peter's movements. Peter may be unpredictable to most martial artists, like water. However, Steve watched, observed, and guessed the flow of that water. Stever got it down to a science, studied it, and learned it. Then, he beat it.

No one else in this fight has done the same with Spiderman. He would remain unpredictable.

However, as many have pointed out, he isn't in the fight! Doesn't matter! Rather, we get mr. Unpredictable, Deadpool.

Who may be a good choice to go up against Cassandra. Her power is somewhat similar to the Taskmasters (in function, not form), and Deadpool managed to confuse the hell out of him with his unpredictability. Just as Deathstroke, Wade's counterpart, was able to override Cass' 'reading' ability.

Revised and reposted with Deadpool substituted for Spider-man.


Captain America provides the leadership and bravado the Marvel team will need to keep up with DC's basic skill advantage. Black Panther is a terrific strategist, and Deadpool has shown time and again to be one of Marvel's most dangerous combatants, while Daredevil will make terrific additions. However, based on the OP's terms, Wolverine has no powers or special senses. As such, you've gimped the Marvel team with a headstrong berserker. From the start Marvel is fighting 4v5.

DC lacks a strong leadership role, and combining four loners with Nightwing seems like a bad combination. However, three of these five are all members of the Bats family and understand eachother, GA and DS aren't stupid either, and can easily work in with the group. What this group lacks that Marvel has is a strong leader, Batman perhaps, but he's not known to inspire and lead troops on the level Captain is. Morale is a huge factor in many fights. A couple of months ago I'd say having GA without his gear on this team would make it 4 DC vs 4 Marvel, but his recent upgrade definitly puts him on at LEAST Nightwing's level. At this point you've got three of DC's best martial artists taking on three of Marvel's best with another amazing fighter, and someone about as reliable as a well oiled midget.

I see Wolvie getting taken out first, he'd charge in recklessly, as per usual, and get his shit stomped. Without his powers he's like oldschool Azrael, who Nightwing went toe to toe with. If he decides to fight smart, he's still going to get picked out next, probably by Deathstroke, who does a 10-step on his face.

Now, I'd say either Nightwing or Green Arrow falls next. I'm sure Captain America would be doing his best to protect his teammate, but Black Panther is ruthless enough to sacrifice Wolverine to take out any of the DC's, I'm sure he'd aim for Nightwing or Green arrow in an attempt to take out the weaklest links first. One less fighter will make it all the easier.

Cut down to 4v4, It's a really tough call. If all the fighters square off and go 1v1 like fools, it'll come down to how the match-ups go, but if they fight like teams and focus fire, whichever team has the best execution will win. In that case, I'd be leaning towards DC, while individualy I'd say Marvel probably has a light advantage, the DC guys here are all used to working together (Except Deathstroke, but he's one who's willing to do what it takes to win, even if it means work with the Batcrew) while I can see Black Panther and Deadpool both doing their own thing. However, if these two work with their team, it really comes down to who picks who off first. The weakest link on Marvel's side would be Daredevil, while DC's would be Green Arrow/Nightwing. If either team was to loose a fighter, I believe that would cost them the fight. With Captain America and Daredevil's history of working to protect their partner's in a fight, I think DC would be the first to lose a fighter, and thuse the match.

If we did 5 1v1 matches;

1) Captain America takes Batman. Long, excessive fight, I'd give it to Captain. He'd beat Batman the way Azrael has, being faster, stronger, more proficient.

2) Black Panther against Batgirl, with no gadgets or anything... I have no idea. This fight would be insane.

3) Wolverine would get his shit wrecked by Green Arrow.

4) Nightwing against Deadpool would be a fairly good fight, but Deadpool has taken on Wolverine, Captain America, Agent X, Taskmaster, Killmonger (Black Panther) and held his own or outright won. Both are ridiculously agile, but Deadpool is more experienced, more ruthless, better trained, and has a threshold for pain that is downright retarded.

5) Deathstroke, by a mile.

Personally, I'd see the fights ending up as;

1) Captain America vs Batman. (See above)

2) Black Panther vs Deathstroke - This fight would be a VERY good fight, I'd lean towards Black Panther, but not by much. Both are very dangerous.

3) Wolverine vs Nightwing - Wolverine is a bit slower, less agile, a bit stronger, much more durable, a better threshold for pain, more experience. I could see this really going either way. Wolverine has some good martial prowess feats, but he's not always the best at executing them. Realisticly, I can see Nightwing having the upperhand, but Wolverine has a good puncher's chance.

4) Deadpool vs Batgirl - If anyone has the best chance against Batgirl, it'd be Deadpool. He's as agile, stronger, more durable, higher threshold of pain, not as skilled, but more unorthodox. I believe this would be a very close fight. If Batgirl relys on trying to learn Deadpool's style, she'll go down, but if she fights him as he comes, I think she can keep up, and possibly win. I'd give Deadpool the slight advantage.

5) Daredevil vs Green Arrow - I'd say Green Arrow's biggest weakness in a fight is an agile opponent. He's used to fighting bigger, stronger enemies, but when faced with guys like Dakon and Batman, the speed is what he has trouble keeping up with. With his current upgrades, I think that would be much less of a factor, but still his biggest weakness. Green Arrow can take some serious beatings, and is probably stronger than Batman (He trains just as much, and the use of that bow as much as he does would give him more muscle endurance. His bow pull-weight is absoloutly ridiculous) by a smidgen. I'd still lean slightly towards Daredevil, as he's much more accustomed to the fist-fighting, and has a lot more experience in this department. I'd give a SLIGHT majority to Daredevil.

bump, this my longest thread, YAY!!!!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Fights are not PIS or CIS mutually exclusive.

You have poor reading comprehension skills. That's really all we've established here.

Is it PIS? Depends on if you know the capabilities of a single gorilla, and a group of them? Then yes it is, because a gorilla can backhand a couple of hundred points with a glancing minimal effort. These were intelligent telekinetic gorillas.

*sigh* Whatever. What we have proved is that CIS and PIS are not as clear as you think they are.

Originally posted by Longinus
bump, this my longest thread, YAY!!!! Nice.

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh* Whatever. What we have proved is that CIS and PIS are not as clear as you think they are. You think Batman can take out a group of intelligent quasi-telekinetic gorillas without PIS or prep?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You think Batman can take out a group of intelligent quasi-telekinetic gorillas without PIS or prep?

Hey, hey ,hey. My last point is to do with the gorillas AND Spiderman! I said Spiderman not using stealth mode was PIS, you then said it was CIS and NOT PIS. You then said it was a mixture of both.

DO YOU WANT ME TO GET YOUR QUOTES.....AGAIN?????????

As for the gorillas I did not know that they had quasi telekinetic powers until you said so. You also did not know that at first....IVE SEEN THE QUOTE WERE YOU SAID YOU DID NOT KNOW THEY HAD POWERS DONT MAKE ME GO AND FIND IT!

Well anyway YOU said Batman fighting gorillas is PIS, but if SvFL is a person fighting beyond their natural abilities is it S v FL?

Cap can take anyone on the DC squad so they should probably give him batgirl since shes the biggest threat.

Originally posted by King KAM
Cap can take anyone on the DC squad so they should probably give him batgirl since shes the biggest threat.

While I think that Captain America could outfight Batgirl (essentially in the vein that Bruce stalemates or beats her, and Captain America can beat out bruce), it would be more intelligent to give her Deadpool. That eliminates her as a serious threat, since he will be un-readable, and Deadpool, while he is no Steve, IS a top-notch fighter.

Anyway there is really no point in you answering that question about the gorillas xmarksthespot because you have now decided that fights can be both CIS and PIS. You have probably realised that fight can be all three CIS, PIS and SvFL.

My problem with you is that originally you thought that fights could not be both PIS and CIS as seen in the Iron Spidey example.

You then changed your mind.

Originally posted by Soljer
While I think that Captain America could outfight Batgirl (essentially in the vein that Bruce stalemates or beats her, and Captain America can beat out bruce), it would be more intelligent to give her Deadpool. That eliminates her as a serious threat, since he will be un-readable, and Deadpool, while he is no Steve, IS a top-notch fighter. yeah, and i think that Daredevil can beat GA...personally.

I dont know that much about GA but he just seems to be more of a very good brawler, he is not a martial artist.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont know that much about GA but he just seems to be more of a very good brawler, he is not a martial artist. then matt should definatley be able to lump him up

In fact he should not really be here, he is gonna get mullered.

I did notice that no one said that he cant have gadgets or is that assumed?

Originally posted by Alfheim
In fact he should not really be here, he is gonna get mullered.

I did notice that no one said that he cant have gadgets or is that assumed? i beleive its assumed.

Green Arrow? He is one of the best fighters in DC. Right up there with Shiva, Batman, Rich Dragon. He's good.

While Daredevil is seriously underrated, and perhaps I am just continuing that trend, I still doubt his ability to take Green Arrow for a majority.

Serious you got any proof? I got this comic where he fights someone on Batmans level and the guy takes him out with one finger...immediately.

Even the Green Arrow himself said he had cleared out some bars in his time, then he whispered under his breath.....small bars.

Well...wait.

Is this Ollie or Connor?

It really does make all the difference.

actually im not sure he didnt have a beard...not sure if that helps...theres two of them.

Damn I hate it when people mix DC and Marvel.

Originally posted by Soljer
Well...wait.

Is this Ollie or Connor?

It really does make all the difference.

WOW this is still going on, well whoever was the better fighter is the one being used in this thread.

Connor then?

According to DC Green Arrow (Conner) is the second best hand to hand (human strength, non powered) in the DC universe.