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A big problem I see with the Bible, is it never states how God was created, he couldn't be around forever, it had to start somewhere

I have a solution: Man made him.

No, I'm asking the Religious people to answer this

It doesnt really concern me. This is a public forum and I am a part of it.

Yes, but I want to see their answer XD

God's God created Him. And His God created Him, and His God created Him... and so on.

relegious answer= he always existed

Who is God's God, and if he was created by another, then he is not perfect, and does that mean that we are a God, and we will create another God?

God's god sounds like Man's man

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Who is God's God, and if he was created by another, then he is not perfect, and does that mean that we are a God, and we will create another God?

Depends on what you mean by perfect.

No, we wouldn't be a god, we would be gods, plural. But that's only if we can become as perfect as our God.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
A big problem I see with the Bible, is it never states how God was created, he couldn't be around forever, it had to start somewhere i made him from some leftover meatloaf

But on a serious note isnt that circular logic cuz then youd have to explain what made the method that made him and so on. God is the prime mover of the universe so there is no need for a reason for his creation

Originally posted by Black Rob
i made him from some leftover meatloaf

Meatwad

come on i said something serious too...

barker

Originally posted by Alliance
barker

god is infinite.
god is everything.

iyo

What made the universe? itself according to some

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
No, I'm asking the Religious people to answer this

Man made God, and I am a religious person.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Man made God, and I am a religious person.
Then man made life, and life obviously doesn't exist does it?

Originally posted by O Green World
Then man made life, and life obviously doesn't exist does it?

Man did not make like, and God did not make life, life is God.
However, that is a good mind game.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Man did not make like, and God did not make life, life is God.
However, that is a good mind game.

Exactly, god is obviously linked with the universe/life, or is, and we are his children of whom are ALSO linked to the universe/life by our souls

We are limited in our understanding...being limited by time that we don't quite understand along with the new string theories and quantum physics...........we cannot know what God really and truly is.......only some intelligence to IT, and it seems to keep creating, and us being made in ITs image as the Bible would say, would also give us the ability to create also, not only in a physical/biological form, but in a invisible forum which I believe it our true nature anyway.......this body is only for the true nature of us to be here to experience this reality......The reality of our choice....

Originally posted by O Green World
Exactly, god is obviously linked with the universe/life, or is, and we are his children of whom are ALSO linked to the universe/life by our souls

We agree on that but the difference is I believe that evolution is the way that God creates.

Yes, and maybe something more.....We just can't say for a fact....

The Boring Answer--and the simplest, therefore probably the best answer--is: God Always Was.

The Fun Answer (at least, I think it's fun) goes like this:
"Where did God come from?"
"God created Himself."
"How could God create Himself?"
"That's what makes God God."

The idea is that this one action--so utterly incomprehensible to us--because it is so utterly incomprehensible: this one action perhaps best highlights the Absolute Power and Nature of God, of just how Infinitely More Capable "He" is than anything else we can even remotely imagine.

Yes. Thats the cop out answer. Fishy is this.

He created himself out of nothingness cuz he's that badass!

BOOM!

NOT


How can something create out of nothingness......oh, hahahha........yeah, it could possibly happen, cause we don't know or understand all the principles of science even yet!! Including the invisible like the power of intentions and thoughts.....

Thank goodness, or I'd be out of a career.

Or maybe an expanded one...

out of an expanded career?

Science is ALWAYS expanding.......don't you think??

In my field knowledge is supposed to double every 3 months.

electronics?

Originally posted by Alliance
In my field knowledge is supposed to double every 3 months. Then you can expect it all in encroachments as it has always been.......

Originally posted by debbiejo
Science is ALWAYS expanding.......don't you think?? y'know what else is always expanding ? naughty

Argh....another intelligence person.

Intelligence implies Consciousness.

Consciousnesss implies Ability to Intervene in the World

Ability to Intervene in the World is not proven.

<><><>

Natural laws AREN'T intelligent. They simply are.

Originally posted by Alliance
Argh....another intelligence person.

Intelligence implies Consciousness.

Consciousnesss implies Ability to Intervene in the World

Ability to Intervene in the World is not proven.

<><><>

Natural laws AREN'T intelligent. They simply are.

However, we assume we know what intelligence is. We may not be intelligent enough to know that is and is not intelligent.

Yes, but that clearly is a reason not to try and do the best we can.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
A big problem I see with the Bible, is it never states how God was created, he couldn't be around forever, it had to start somewhere

And your understanding of God is limited to what Bible has to say. Hmmm...

Bible doesn't talk about it and neither does Qur'an, and the reason for this is that Torah doesn't talk about it either.

If it did, Bible and Qur'an would have copied it, but....though luck.

Anyway, science can't explain how the universe was made (not in a way that doesn't contradicts the basics of physics). Once we scientifically understand how the Universe a.k.a God was created, we will have an answer.

For a more religious ways of explaining God (provided you really NEED to have a God in your life) refer to Hinduism.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, we assume we know what intelligence is. We may not be intelligent enough to know that is and is not intelligent.
Exactly, we as people might not really be "intelligent" we just think we are, we aren't intelligent enough to know. lol

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, we assume we know what intelligence is. We may not be intelligent enough to know that is and is not intelligent.

Is one intelligent if one does not use their intelligence intelligently?

I do not know what made God, but what if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus? Trying to make his way home?

Much the idea behind Greek mythology. Gods are plagued by the smae problems that man is.

Originally posted by Robtard
I do not know what made God, but what if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus? Trying to make his way home?

That would make you treat other people better, if you thought God could be anybody. In my religion, we believe that every person is God, they just may not know it yet.

Sounds communist.

Originally posted by Alliance
Much the idea behind Greek mythology. Gods are plagued by the smae problems that man is.

I'm a big fan of mythology, one of my favorites is how Zeus impregnated Danae with a golden shower, that's some freaky/kinky sh!t there. I'm freaky and kinky myself, but I don't want to pee on anyone.

I always like the rape of Europa.

http://www.wga.hu/art/t/tiziano/mytholo2/rape_eur.jpg

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That would make you treat other people better, if you thought God could be anybody. In my religion, we believe that every person is God, they just may not know it yet.

One, I was being sarcastic, what I said is just plagerized Joan Osborn lyrics. Two, if we're all Gods, can I be the god of sex?

Originally posted by Robtard
One, I was being sarcastic, what I said is just plagerized Joan Osborn lyrics. Two, if we're all Gods, can I be the god of sex?

According to my wife, I've already taken that one

Originally posted by Alliance
I always like the rape of Io.

Didn't he transform her into a cow and then have his way with her? That Zeus has some serious issues.

^^^

Originally posted by Regret
According to my wife, I've already taken that one


Fine! ... I'll be the god of buttsex then.

Originally posted by Robtard
Fine! ... I'll be the god of buttsex then.

oooo, new God there I think

Originally posted by Robtard
One, I was being sarcastic, what I said is just plagerized Joan Osborn lyrics. Two, if we're all Gods, can I be the god of sex?

No, that is my title.

All Hail.

Can I be the god of clones?
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1733/narc39zf.jpg

I am the God of me.

toughie.

Originally posted by Alliance
toughie.

Thank you.

Now everytime i click on this page I see an ARC! YAY

What made God?

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

yawn

Originally posted by ESB -1138
What made God?

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Notice the use of the word "made". Made does not mean that nothing existed previously, it only means that it was organized by God. Also, if God was placed in a space with materials, all things would be made by him; and without him not any thing would be made that was made. Given this, this verse is not Biblical evidence of God having not been made.

Also, man wrote this verse. Thus, one must read the verse from the perspective of primitive man. From that perspective, "everything" is a limited construct and does not necessarily include the entirety of the universe, let alone the entirety of existence.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was in the beginning and the Word was God

Originally posted by ESB -1138
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was in the beginning and the Word was God

This changes nothing.

Originally posted by Regret
This changes nothing.

God is alpha and omega: he is the beginning and the end. Nothing was before him and nothing is after him.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
God is alpha and omega: he is the beginning and the end. Nothing was before him and nothing is after him.

That is merely a close minded interpretation. God is alpha and omega: he is the beginning and the end of everything as far as man is concerned. Nothing was before him and nothing is after him as far as man is concerned. It isn't absolute. The terms used in scripture are in reference to organization, creation in that he used the existing matter and created things from it, not in creation of something from a vacuum.

Originally posted by Regret
That is merely a close minded interpretation. God is alpha and omega: he is the beginning and the end of everything as far as man is concerned. Nothing was before him and nothing is after him as far as man is concerned. It isn't absolute. The terms used in scripture are in reference to organization, creation in that he used the existing matter and created things from it, not in creation of something from a vacuum.

Gensis 1:3
And God siad, Let there be light: and there was light

Seems more like whatever God said happened.

actually.......there was already light when Genesis was written.......therefore the only logical conclusion is that whatever had already happened, man attributed to god.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
actually.......there was already light when Genesis was written.......therefore the only logical conclusion is that whatever had already happened, man attributed to god.

Back up your word

back up my word?

are you now debating that light.....photons....stars......our own sun existed before the book of genesis was written?

holy ****ing nutjob..........

Originally posted by Evil Dead
back up my word?

are you now debating that light.....photons....stars......our own sun existed before the book of genesis was written?

holy ****ing nutjob..........

Seems like you can't if you didn't

uh.....it's quite simple.......just didn't think anybody was so nuts.....

the book of genesis was written by a human being. to live human beings must ingest animals or plants. Plants derive their energy from photosynthesis......sun light. Even if the man who wrote genesis only ate meat..........the herbivores that the carnivores eat must ingest plant life.......which ofcourse means there was light to allow these plants to exist.

are you a retard? Discuss intelligently or leave......

Originally posted by Evil Dead
uh.....it's quite simple.......just didn't think anybody was so nuts.....

the book of genesis was written by a human being. to live human beings must ingest animals or plants. Plants derive their energy from photosynthesis......sun light. Even if the man who wrote genesis only ate meat..........the herbivores that the carnivores eat must ingest plant life.......which ofcourse means there was light to allow these plants to exist.

are you a retard? Discuss intelligently or leave......

It was written by human but the Word came from God

says you. who are you? why should I take your word for it. what evidence to you have to back up this claim?

as you stated earlier.......

Originally posted by ESB -1138
It was written by human but the Word came from God

Christians that use the term "Word" must be careful. Christ is the Word, the Bible is not the Word. The Bible is the recording of the word of God, Christ is the Word of God.

Originally posted by Regret
Christians that use the term "Word" must be careful. Christ is the Word, the Bible is not the Word. The Bible is the recording of the word of God, Christ is the Word of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God:

John 1-1

That says that Jesus is the Word but the word in Gensis came from God. Who else would have known how time begun other then the God?

so that's your game........... get called out........use your own words to contradict yourself......so you just ignore it altogether?

Originally posted by ESB -1138
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God:

John 1-1

That says that Jesus is the Word but the word in Gensis came from God. Who else would have known how time begun other then the God?



You did not understand what I said.

Christ = the Word

In the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ was God.

The Bible never was Christ. The Bible is the word of God.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
so that's your game........... get called out........use your own words to contradict yourself......so you just ignore it altogether?

How did I contradict myself?

okay.....hypocritical would be more fitting......

you post telling me to back up my word......I do so.....you then make some remark about a magical/invisible boogie man living in the sky......I put your own words back to you, "back up your word" and you ignore it altogether........

Originally posted by Evil Dead
okay.....hypocritical would be more fitting......

you post telling me to back up my word......I do so.....you then make some remark about a magical/invisible boogie man living in the sky......I put your own words back to you, "back up your word" and you ignore it altogether........

God isn't invisible. He appeared before Adam and Eve before the garden and appeared also before Jacob. He lives in heaven along with the Son and all who has found salvation. God has no need to return for his word has been spoken.

again.....I put your own words back to you. Back up your word. Let's see your evidence for anything you have just typed.

If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to

form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/universe.gif

Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!

A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos. The picture below is a picture of the sun. Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion. Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy. In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence. This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun. Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way. Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos. Just think about it! If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/esb1138/sun.gif

Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it. As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen? I am going to run out of gas I If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago! The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen. The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe! Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21 cm line in the spectrum_a piece of light only given off by hydrogen. This could not be unless we had a beginning!

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics. In any closed system, things tend to become disordered. If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more. Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics. In space, things also get old. Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death. If the cosmos is "everything that ever was or is or ever will be," as Dr. Carl Sagan is so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it. Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist's assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong. The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer--what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause. We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is

"through the things he has made." The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley once said:

We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.
The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.


REFERENCES:
Hoyle, Frederick, The Intelligent Universe, Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1983.
Humanist Manifesto I and 11, Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St.,
Buffalo, NY 14215, 1985.

again.........this copy/paste job has nothing to do with the discussion. more Christian propoganda.......unsolicited, unwanted......spamming.

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3205/passedoutwatermelonbumps1.jpg

Originally posted by Milkie
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3205/passedoutwatermelonbumps1.jpg

Gotta love watermelons mmmMMMmm

Originally posted by Evil Dead
again.........this copy/paste job has nothing to do with the discussion. more Christian propoganda.......unsolicited, unwanted......spamming.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

and....................reported. I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of this crap. Some of us are adults trying to have discussions........this copy/paste random spam crap may fly in the LOTR virgin forum but not here......

Originally posted by Milkie
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3205/passedoutwatermelonbumps1.jpg where'd you find that picture of my birthday?

Originally posted by Evil Dead
and....................reported. I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of this crap. Some of us are adults trying to have discussions........this copy/paste random spam crap may fly in the LOTR virgin forum but not here...... I agree

Originally posted by docb77
electronics? Knowledge...........

SOMEONE SPIKED THAT POOR MANS WATERMELON!!!!!111

It, my dear is keeping an open mind on what could/would/possibly be.

HES DYING! HELP HIM

He's?????


oh yeah.......you're just a ****...........a **** to your belief................hm hm hmmmmmmmmmmm............lol

what?

You are so atheist ..................is what I meant, that you can't/won't look at other things beyond ............We are only just learning now with the quantum physics ........string theory, and other studies............I believe people should broaden their views...........

Originally posted by Evil Dead
uh.....it's quite simple.......just didn't think anybody was so nuts.....

the book of genesis was written by a human being. to live human beings must ingest animals or plants. Plants derive their energy from photosynthesis......sun light. Even if the man who wrote genesis only ate meat..........the herbivores that the carnivores eat must ingest plant life.......which ofcourse means there was light to allow these plants to exist.

are you a retard? Discuss intelligently or leave......

Are you a retard? It wasn't wrote at the same time! The god, you know, the one mentioned in genesis, told them what to write AFTERWARDS!


Originally posted by Evil Dead
again.....I put your own words back to you. Back up your word. Let's see your evidence for anything you have just typed.

Give me evidence, right here, right now, that evolution exists and i'll believe and i MEAN evidence, show me evolution right infront of my eyes, REAL evolution.

Stop being so hypocritical of people who you think are being hypocritical! That's so hypocritical of you!

In other words, find some way to make me live for millions of years so i can study the evolution of animals.

Originally posted by O Green World
Are you a retard? It wasn't wrote at the same time! The god, you know, the one mentioned in genesis, told them what to write AFTERWARDS!

Give me evidence, right here, right now, that evolution exists and i'll believe and i MEAN evidence, show me evolution right infront of my eyes, REAL evolution.

Stop being so hypocritical of people who you think are being hypocritical! That's so hypocritical of you!

In other words, find some way to make me live for millions of years so i can study the evolution of animals.

You're retarted. Go make up answers for things.

Originally posted by Alliance
You're retarted. Go make up answers for things.

Um retarted?

Expecting proof for something that happened 8000 years ago is impossible unless info was passed down like the Bible, and evidence for evolution well.... impossible to find rightn now... It really is a theory, cause information that was passed about evolution started as a theory anyways

Actually Evolution is fact. If you know anything about anything, which you likely do not given your extreme ignorace about what evolution even is, you would be arguin gagainst natural selection.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with another dumbf*ck.

Natural Selection is a Theory. Get it straight.

The bible is proof of nothing, and if you ever played a 6300 year game of telephone you can only imagine how screwed up your
"fact" is.

Actually evolution is a theory, Natural selection is a mechanism by which that theory could work. The data that supports evolution are made of facts (fossils mainly).

Evolution is not a Theory. There is no "Theory of Evolution" however, that term has been used by Intelligent Design groups to name Natural selection.

"Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations." This is perhaps one of the better scientific defenitions of evolution.

You are correct that the Theory of NAtural selection is the mechanism for evolution.

Evolution is a theory though, just like relativity is a theory. Both are demonstrable, both have a lot of evidence behind them, but in the end we haven't completely proven either. Science doesn't actually prove anything, it can only disprove. And neither evolution nor relativity has been disproven (although physics isn't my field, I think that our understanding of relativity may have been modified since einstein.)

Science does prove things, but not in absolute terms. Science both proves and disporves, especially on the experimental level.

The Theory of Relativity is much less complete than evolution is. Evolution is much more concrete than the concept of gravity. I very much stand by my position that evolution is not a Theory, it is fact, but if you take it, then I'll stop b*tching.

Actually, natural selection has been modified fruequently and much so than either of the relativity theories. In fact, the full name of the modern Natural Selection is commonly called the The Modern Synthesis.

Originally posted by docb77
Evolution is a theory though, just like relativity is a theory. Both are demonstrable, both have a lot of evidence behind them, but in the end we haven't completely proven either. Science doesn't actually prove anything, it can only disprove. And neither evolution nor relativity has been disproven (although physics isn't my field, I think that our understanding of relativity may have been modified since einstein.)

If you are interested, I'll post another of Widtsoe's articles on the Mormon thread as to our view on this(evolution), at least as of 1960 or so.

Maybe some other time. If you piss me off on the subject I'll read over it

Lol, I was posting it mainly for Docb77, I figured if he was unsure about any stance that had been stated that this would help him out. Plus, Widtsoe was a scientist as well as being a member of our 12 Apostles during his life.

John A. Widtsoe

The citations I have made were published in the book cited in 1960, so they should be considered fairly valid up to that point.

ok.

Perhaps what we've got is a difference of opinion based on what we think the term evolution means, I accept that evolution - meaning change - is a fact of life. I'm more hesitant to say that evolution - meaning the changing of one species into another - is incontrovertible. I do think there's a lot of data to support it, but I'm not quite ready to say it's rock solid.

Would it make sense to say that the universe itself, is god?

Evolution is A LOT more than speciation. People alwasys focus on speciation. Evolution happens in populations. Speciation can take a long time and it may never happen in certain populaitons.

I'm not an expert on it, but speciation has been observed.

I'm thinking the last few posts of ours maybe should have gone to the evolution thread. How did we get to talking about evolution in here anyways? Never mind, I found it.

Originally posted by O Green World
Um retarted?

Expecting proof for something that happened 8000 years ago is impossible unless info was passed down like the Bible, and evidence for evolution well.... impossible to find rightn now... It really is a theory, cause information that was passed about evolution started as a theory anyways

Originally posted by docb77
Perhaps what we've got is a difference of opinion based on what we think the term evolution means, I accept that evolution - meaning change - is a fact of life. I'm more hesitant to say that evolution - meaning the changing of one species into another - is incontrovertible. I do think there's a lot of data to support it, but I'm not quite ready to say it's rock solid.

It's more solid than Creationism though.

doc.......don't bother posting to "O Green World". He changed his name but that is the kid who used to call himself Chibi Boy in this forum. We found out he was 12 years old and had lied about his age to gain access to this forum. That was a year or so ago so he is only 13-14 years old now.

read some of my old threads. I think he posted a lot in my "Why I'm better than god" thread. In such threads he stated some of the following......

- he has never read the bible (yet is somehow a Christian, even though he's never read the teachings of Christ)

- whales were not mammals, they were fish......they "breathed water"

- the earth surface disappears, gets worn away from animals walking on it. He never could understand that the earth does not disappear....it simply gets moved.....you know, law of conservation of matter. He actually thought that when you wear the rubber off the sole of your shoe that it disappeared. When I explained to him that the rubber does not disappear, it is simply relocated to other surfaces by rubbing off as you walk......he was at a loss.

seriously, go read that thread and be prepared to laugh your ass off at what kids highschool age actually know these days.......or don't.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's more solid than Creationism though.

Depends on what you mean by Creationism, I believe that God created everything, I just don't know how. Evolution seems like as likely a candidate as any for the how.

Originally posted by O Green World
Um retarted?

Expecting proof for something that happened 8000 years ago is impossible unless info was passed down like the Bible, and evidence for evolution well.... impossible to find rightn now... It really is a theory, cause information that was passed about evolution started as a theory anyways

There so cute when thier young....they think they know everything...awwww

The religious answer: God has been around forever. It's a hard thing to grasp, the concept of forever. But that's what makes God, well, God. He just is, and always be.

The non-religious answer: Mankind made God, in our own likeness, instead of the other way around.

The I-just-don't-give-a-damn answer: Who cares? Does it even matter? Your questions make my head hurt.

meh.....actually Christianity gives no answer. They actually use the basis that nothing can exist forever, it must be created by a creator as their fundemental stance for god. When you ask them , "who then created god"......they just walk away.

If something can exist forever....okay......the universe existed forever, no need for a god. If nothing can exist forever, everything must have a creator.......who created god?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
A big problem I see with the Bible, is it never states how God was created, he couldn't be around forever, it had to start somewhere

"Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."
Psalms 90:2

* He is God from eternity to eternity...

Originally posted by peejayd
"Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."
Psalms 90:2

* He is God from eternity to eternity...

Peejayd, it says "ever lasting" not "ever beginning"

You can be Immortal if you lack a death but have a birth.

You can be infinite in one direction (death) but be finite in the other direction (birth)

Originally posted by docb77
Depends on what you mean by Creationism, I believe that God created everything, I just don't know how. Evolution seems like as likely a candidate as any for the how.

Creationism meaning the story of Adam and Eve.

It makes no sense since they only had to male children, Cain and Able.

And even still, if Cain and Able had sisters to mate with, than that's Incest, and for the human race to be created of Incest...when God forbids Incest....it makes absolutely no sense, it's a major contradiction in itself

Originally posted by Evil Dead
doc.......don't bother posting to "O Green World". He changed his name but that is the kid who used to call himself Chibi Boy in this forum. We found out he was 12 years old and had lied about his age to gain access to this forum. That was a year or so ago so he is only 13-14 years old now.

read some of my old threads. I think he posted a lot in my "Why I'm better than god" thread. In such threads he stated some of the following......

- he has never read the bible (yet is somehow a Christian, even though he's never read the teachings of Christ)

- whales were not mammals, they were fish......they "breathed water"

- the earth surface disappears, gets worn away from animals walking on it. He never could understand that the earth does not disappear....it simply gets moved.....you know, law of conservation of matter. He actually thought that when you wear the rubber off the sole of your shoe that it disappeared. When I explained to him that the rubber does not disappear, it is simply relocated to other surfaces by rubbing off as you walk......he was at a loss.

seriously, go read that thread and be prepared to laugh your ass off at what kids highschool age actually know these days.......or don't.....

Yeah, hahah, your really smart, someone with the spelling of an 18 year old is a 12 year old.

1. I said i HAVE read the bible, just not well, i do live busy life so it ins't easy to have read the whole thing, you're twisting things.

2. Lol, it makes sense that i did bad in my biology tests i admit i was bad.

3. I'm 15 now, you never "found out i was 12" you thought i was cause i'm bad at biology and probably missed some lessons in physics. Twisting things yet again
Originally posted by Evil Dead
meh.....actually Christianity gives no answer. They actually use the basis that nothing can exist forever, it must be created by a creator as their fundemental stance for god. When you ask them , "who then created god"......they just walk away.

If something can exist forever....okay......the universe existed forever, no need for a god. If nothing can exist forever, everything must have a creator.......who created god?

It's strange how a universe can make itself and a god can't

you forget to mention that the universe exists.........we see it everytime we open our eyes. There is direct physical evidence aswell as numerous amounts of data pertaining not only to these physical elements of evidence, but also the fundemental forces at work within the universe.

now where's this god proof?

Originally posted by Evil Dead
you forget to mention that the universe exists.........we see it everytime we open our eyes. There is direct physical evidence aswell as numerous amounts of data pertaining not only to these physical elements of evidence, but also the fundemental forces at work within the universe.

now where's this god proof?

What you see, feel, hear etc could just be like an illusion, like a dream. When you die you will wake up in either heaven.... or hell

What about air? Something you can't see, hear, smell etc

ps. chibi boy...... please do not now lie......make me go through the philosophy forum and find the exact post in which you stated you had never read the bible. I have a great memory......I remember in the same thread you admitting that there were more than one poster on your account, explaining some of the trolling under your name. You may have read some of the bible since, but last year when you were in this forum.......you stated yourself you had never once read any portion of the bible. To lie about it now is just assinine as all your posts are still saved on this server. 'tis better to just own up to mistakes of the past and cut your losses than to lie now and completely ruin any credibility you have with the newer users.

maybe god can get on this forum and answer.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
ps. chibi boy...... please do not now lie......make me go through the philosophy forum and find the exact post in which you stated you had never read the bible. I have a great memory......I remember in the same thread you admitting that there were more than one poster on your account, explaining some of the trolling under your name. You may have read some of the bible since, but last year when you were in this forum.......you stated yourself you had never once read any portion of the bible. To lie about it now is just assinine as all your posts are still saved on this server. 'tis better to just own up to mistakes of the past and cut your losses than to lie now and completely ruin any credibility you have with the newer users.

I don't remember ever saying that i never read it, i did actually read it, just bad memory and not being able to have read it all forbade me from, well, knowing.. You can remind me otherwise if you like...

Originally posted by bigbran
maybe god can get on this forum and answer.

He could, just that would force everyone to believe. if it was really him that is...

I do not exist.

I'm glad to finally settle this matter. Carry on.

see.......told you guys.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
see.......told you guys.

ofcourse god, i completely believe you don't exist

Wait, you are a demon!

I don't know what you are talking about.............

Originally posted by I am God
I do not exist.

I'm glad to finally settle this matter. Carry on. sock!!! sock!!!

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejayd, it says "ever lasting" not "ever beginning"

You can be Immortal if you lack a death but have a birth.

You can be infinite in one direction (death) but be finite in the other direction (birth)

* yes, i got your point, it says "everlasting"... but it also said "FROM everlasting"... and let us see other translations...

"Before you created the hills or brought the world into being, you were eternally God, and will be God forever."
Psalms 90:2
Good News Bible

"Before the mountains were made, before you had given birth to the earth and the world, before time was, and for ever, you are God."
Psalms 90:2
Bible in Basic English

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Darby Bible

"Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Douay-Rheims Version

* when it says "FROM everlasting" or "FROM eternity", it means "FROM no beginning"...

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, i got your point, it says "everlasting"... but it also said "FROM everlasting"... and let us see other translations...

"Before you created the hills or brought the world into being, you were eternally God, and will be God forever."
Psalms 90:2
Good News Bible

"Before the mountains were made, before you had given birth to the earth and the world, before time was, and for ever, you are God."
Psalms 90:2
Bible in Basic English

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Darby Bible

"Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Douay-Rheims Version

* when it says "FROM everlasting" or "FROM eternity", it means "FROM no beginning"...



But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

I would say that assuming the existence of God, He would have made us. Of course that still doesn't bar the possibility that there are man-made ideas about God, or entirely man-made doctrines. The only way to really know is for God to tell you.

Originally posted by Alliance
God's god sounds like Man's man

Maybe. But the fundamental philosophical issue underpinning this question is the following: One of two things is eternal--Matter/Energy or Mind/Spirit. To say that matter/energy always existed (even as a Big Bang-style singularity) does not put you in a much better philosophical position than saying God existed eternally. Both are axioms that are unlikely to be "proven" by any empirical test.

The recent universal acceptance of the Big Bang as the most likely model for the physical origin of the universe is a case in point. When Lemaitre, a French Jesuit edcuator/theoretical physicist, first proposed the theory in the 1930's, it was roundly attacked by the scientific community, including Einstein, as being cataclysmic and smacking of "creationism." At the time, a non-cataclysmic, "steady state" model was ascendant.

Much of the hostility to Lemaitre's idea was the notion that the nature of the physical universe was once radically different than it is now. That the universe could have had a finite origin in time and might have proceeded from a single point was an idea in direct opposition to comfortable scientific preferences for the uniformity of phenomena over time and strict linear, material causation.

While the Big Bang certainly doesn't "prove" God's existence, its reluctant acceptance by the scientific community in the late twentieth century points to a fundamental weakness in the armor of radical skepticism and indicates that, like everyone else, scientists are predisposed to see things framed through a particular world view that may or may not conform to the world around them.

The simple truth of the matter is that science cannot speak to the existence of God, one way of the other. But this self-imposed limitation of scientific method shouldn't eliminate the sphere of religious belief from the public arena. There are many things that cannot be proved empirically that we nonetheless experience intensely--love, anguish, human kinship. Strictly speaking, all these human experiences are anomolies in the otherwise indifferent universe. Even our ceaseless striving after truth is an indication that we exist in a position to stand apart from the world and judge it, that we are unnatural.

Material causation and absolute determinism cannot account for these things. Those that would argue that we are merely biological robots acting strictly through chemical stimulation do not live as if they are automatons--unless they're sociopaths. Those that espouse nothing but material causation and the accompanying belief in the illusory character of the soul are left to explain why they cherish human life, or why they care what the truth really is, or why they care what happens to their children. If these behaviors are merely biological tricks our DNA play on us to facilitate the perpetuation of our species, why should we continue to hold these values once we achieve our "higher" consciousness? After all, if no values really exist, and all is happenstance and natural selection, why should the perpetuation of my species concern me any more than anything else? F..k it.

Human existence is a recent anomaly in the universe, but it is a significant anomaly. Any "scientific" theory must account for our presence as thinking, feeling, loving beings.

Thinking, feeling, and loving are relatively commonplace in our lives, so we generally dismiss these things as banalities, or as subjects not worthy of serious philosophical thought; but I suspect that these experiences are the point of it all, the secret wonder of a cold, unfeeling universe, that doesn't know--nor never will--how to laugh, sing, or cry.

If our humanity is real, and I think we must assume it is, then the universe is stranger than our science knows, and the ultimate author of our uniqueness might still hide behind the veil of that first moment before there was either time or space and the universe was a fleck of nothingness to be held by a child.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

* according to the Bible, yes, God made us...

"The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
The Acts 17:24

* and God's existence lies through His creations...

"Because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:"
The Romans 1:19-20

* there really is a Higher Being and that is God...

Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible, yes, God made us...

"The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
The Acts 17:24

* and God's existence lies through His creations...

"Because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:"
The Romans 1:19-20

* there really is a Higher Being and that is God...


The Bible was written by Human Beings

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible was written by Human Beings

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

Or that we are God.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible was written by Human Beings

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

* history books are also written by humans... should we believe in history books or not?

Originally posted by peejayd
* history books are also written by humans... should we believe in history books or not?

Not word for word....History is written by the victors.

We only know what people tell us. We were not alive at that time to truly know every aspect of truth that was present.

You also have to realize that everyone percieves the world differently. Eyewitnesses of the SAME event often contradict each other.

Why do you think the accomplishments of women and homosexual men have not been brought to light? Because straight men have written the majority of our historical past.

However, I'm more willing to accept History Text than Biblical text, because History is not telling me how to live my life, nor is it violating Civil Rights, nor are people using it in an attempt to oppress other people.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not word for word....History is written by the victors.

We only know what people tell us. We were not alive at that time to truly know every aspect of truth that was present.

You also have to realize that everyone percieves the world differently. Eyewitnesses of the SAME event often contradict each other.

Why do you think the accomplishments of women and homosexual men have not been brought to light? Because straight men have written the majority of our historical past.

However, I'm more willing to accept History Text than Biblical text, because History is not telling me how to live my life, nor is it violating Civil Rights, nor are people using it in an attempt to oppress other people.


hysterical

I'm sorry, but if you think that history isn't telling you how to live you must be getting it from someplace other than public schools. History and other social studies classes are one of the best indoctination techniques that exist today. The difference is that the indoctrination is indirect rather than direct. Instead of "Thou shalt not kill" you get inclusion of certain events and you get other events glossed over. Currently the emphasis of American history books is on being a good citizen and tolerance of others. It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

Off hand, while I see those as the themes of current history classes, I do not think that they are doing a good job of actually teaching those things.